'Occupy English Folk Music!'

Subject: RE: 'Occupy English Folk Music!'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Nov 11 - 06:13 AM

"I'm totally confused as to what 'The Tradition' is." "Aren't we all?"
No we're not - the tradition is recorded researched and documented in many hundreds of published works, it is defined in dictionaries and encylopeadies, it is to be found in recorded example in archives all over the world and most importantly, it is to be found and immortalised in the voices of such TRADITIONAL singers as Walter Pardon, Tom Lenihan and Texas Gladden - all of whom knew what the tradition was and said so when asked.
And yeas - it is about history and preservation - otherwise the big ballads will never survive the present revalists who almost collectively seem to have developed 'acute goldfish-memoryitis' and eternally whinge about their being "too long".
The more of the many diverse and important aspects of folk music that attract attention, the better its chances of survival, and those who argue that all you have to do is sing, need to take a hard, long look around and count up just how many new and young faces are appearing at the geriatric-filled clubs.
A workable, (if in need of intelligent up-dating) well-researched, recorded and documented definition exists and is to be found in most good dictionaries, and until somebody comes up with an alternative, that is the one that will be passed on for future use.
I have never read such self-promotional, self-congratulatory, mindless waffle.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: 'Occupy English Folk Music!'
From: theleveller
Date: 10 Nov 11 - 06:26 AM

Well, there we are - Jim has spoken so we can all just shut up and go about our business.

Subject: RE: 'Occupy English Folk Music!'
From: GUEST,SteveT
Date: 10 Nov 11 - 06:27 AM

"Like The Tradition, the fossil record remains finite," ( Suibhne Astray).

I'll avoid getting too bogged down with the content of this thread but I do so love analogies and ought to point out that the fossil record is not finite, fossils are still being formed. It's just that fossilisation is a slow process and interrupting it before it's complete would mean you wouldn't see the fossil (in some cases just a partially-decayed mess!!). The most recent recognised fossils are probably things such as Lindow Man, from between 2BCE and 119CE, although there may be more recent examples such as organisms preserved in ice etc. So, if you wish to use that example, music and song are still entering the "tradition" – but you'll need to come back much later if you want to find it fully absorbed as a "fossil".

I'll add that my experience is that there are plenty of discrete "styles" around that coalesce into groups/clubs/sessions. I go to some singarounds that get bored if someone tries to sing an unaccompanied ballad or song and some that love old (traditional) choruses and ballads and don't really appreciate anything accompanied or from the 20th century (let alone the 21st). I go to music sessions (where they don't like songs) where they say "Oh no, lets not have any "diddly-diddly" music" (by which I presume they mean Irish) and others that are advertised as "Irish only". It's not that you couldn't do something else at these places, just that those who keep them running are not "moved" by them. You might say that they are prejudiced or you might say that they have a right to their preferences. For me I go to each and respect the views of the group that carry them on each week/month. I'm grateful for their love of live music and, if I feel like singing a Child ballad, I just make sure I do it at the right club. I don't need to occupy anyone else's space – I just go to the space that's already occupied by the style I feel like at the time. (I haven't yet been to the Klezma session, as I don't know the chord sequences, but I've been to the monthly "music club" which I would class as an open mike venue for singer-songwriters but, although I write, play and sing, I didn't feel my material suited so I've only been back as audience – I wouldn't want to occupy a spot that was better suited to others.)

Subject: RE: 'Occupy English Folk Music!'
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 10 Nov 11 - 06:42 AM

you seemed to get perilously close to endorsing the concepts of Folk Song and Folk Lore

Yikes! I suppose what I'm trying to say is that there is The Thing* and our Concept of The Thing, which are two very different things (?!). My concept of Folk / Folklore / Folktale is largely determined by bending bookshelves stuffed with cherish volumes & collections & theoretical perspectives most of which I don't actually agree with but acknowledge as essential to the cause. My main passion, I suppose, is The Green Man; I've got dozens of books from Basford to MacDermott but it wasn't until the recent publication of Richard Hayman's wee book as part of the Shire series that I found one that echoes my own feelings and findings on the matter pretty much exactly - see AMAZON for both the book & my review. That said, I have dozens of dear Green Man friends and associates who feel very differently, but I'm quite happy to share notes, images, pints & field ventures with them. Same with Folk really - we agree on The Thing, but we differ on The Concept.

*Nothing to do with the classic 1951 sci-fi movie, or John Carpenter's ingenious 1982 remake. 2011 sees still another... Hmmm... Still, I got her along to the last two Planet of the Apes remakes & reimaginings (and she's happily half-watching episodes of the 1974 TV series I bought the other day) but how am I going to persuade her to come see The Thing with me? It's often a fine line between sci-fi and horror; District 9 she loved & hated in equal measure. It's like getting girls to like Beefheart or The Fall really, or Krautrock. Actually, I'm feeling especially positive right now having just unwrapped the copy of Tangerine Dream's 'Encore' that I bought in Fopp in MCR last year for £3 and forgot I had. Just found it & it's on there now; hardly classic Dream I admit (Zeit anyone?) but I neverthless remember it being the choice listening of a bunch of punk mates, circa 1977, who hadn't quite rejected their prog / Kraut roots. Looking back, I now realise it was a more a matter of prog rejecting them.

Subject: RE: 'Occupy English Folk Music!'
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 10 Nov 11 - 07:39 AM

fossils are still being formed

Not of extinct species of dinosaur they're not, which was my point. Like The Tradition, the record is both finite and fragmentary and its interpretation is largely a matter of guesswork. The experience of it is a thing of pure Joy though (with significant exceptions, ahem) - but it's the same joy you get on encountering the dinosaur skeletons in the Natural History Museum, or the weird life-size plastic replicas in Blackpool Zoo. In this game we're all paleontologists, united, I hope by our ultimate love of fossils which, though long dead, still inspire us to create whole new worlds...

Subject: RE: 'Occupy English Folk Music!'
From: johncharles
Date: 10 Nov 11 - 09:26 AM

Jim Carroll is correct The Tradition is "about history and preservation". This I believe is a very valuable task. This is essentially an academic   exercise and as such will only ever be accessed by other academics and a vanishingly small percentage of the wider population.
However, this thread is addressing the real world of performers and audiences.
I note Jim Carroll passing interesting comments upon the real world in an article in
"Living Tradition - Issue 36 Opinion
Jim Carroll & Pat Mackenzie"
Audiences are changing in response to their changing environment and folk/traditional performers have to change, particularly if it is their means of making a living.
After all the one of the driving forces behind the first and second folk revivals was the fact that the singing tradition was dying out – changing times perhaps?

Subject: RE: 'Occupy English Folk Music!'
From: BTNG
Date: 10 Nov 11 - 09:27 AM

I'll leave Jim The Red and His Merry band of Theorists in the little dark back room down at The Duck and Prime Minister mumbling into their pint pots and admiring each others jumpers and actually get out there and play the music, a cappella, acoustically and electrically, variation that's the key...not tied down by someone elses idea of what I should be playing...is it folk? probably not.

Subject: RE: 'Occupy English Folk Music!'
From: John P
Date: 10 Nov 11 - 10:01 AM

BTNG,
As has been noted, your constant insults and snide comments are tiring. Please talk about the music and leave your boorishness home.

You said, I'll actually get out there and play the music, not tied down by someone elses idea of what I should be playing

No one anywhere, ever, is tied down by someone else's idea of what they should be playing. That is, in essence, what this tread is about, and the whole idea is simply bullshit.

Subject: RE: 'Occupy English Folk Music!'
From: John P
Date: 10 Nov 11 - 10:07 AM

I find myself put off by the concept of a "finite" body of work. Having witnessed that not being true, I have to disagree. But then, for me, the "tradition" is all about the music. The rest of life that made up what others seem to be talking about when they talk about the tradition is long gone. While I find studying history interesting, all the historical knowledge in the world isn't going to change or create a melody or lyric and doesn't have much to do with how the music actually gets transmitted and played today.

Subject: RE: 'Occupy English Folk Music!'
From: BTNG
Date: 10 Nov 11 - 10:12 AM

if you say so JohnP if you say so

Subject: RE: 'Occupy English Folk Music!'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Nov 11 - 10:42 AM

"I'll leave Jim The Red and His Merry band of Theorists in the little dark back room down at The Duck and Prime Minister mumbling into their pint pots..... "
Well - in the presence of such a well thought out argument I withdraw my comments
Prat
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: 'Occupy English Folk Music!'
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 10 Nov 11 - 10:52 AM

all the historical knowledge in the world isn't going to change or create a melody or lyric and doesn't have much to do with how the music actually gets transmitted and played today.

The Tradition inspires new creations, new artists, new approaches, even new traditions which echo what Jim wrote in the article (quoted a few posts back by johncharles): folk/traditional performers have to change. That's just the way it is really, everyone has something new to bring to it, and so it goes on, ad infinitum. The Finite aspect is the Old Songs, and the cultural & historical conditions in which they arose. That's finished. Just as ploughing with horses is finished; just as steam railways are finished. They exist as revivals and recreations; things you see in a Living Museum like Beamish, but save for the passions of a few enthusiasts diligenty beavering away then they'd be gone. Is the Folk Scene a living museum? I don't think so - although it could easily be, and I dare say to many that's exactly what it is. I used to love museums - I still love the Pit-Rivers Museum and the random threadbare taxidermy & ethnographic clutter of the old Handcock in Newcastle before they ruined it. I see the Folk Scene as being like that - random clutter endangered by over-eager curators seeking to somehow clean it up and bring it up to date, or put to heavy a stamp on the public displays whilst the really interesting stuff is kept locked away in the vaults.

Looking forward muchly to seeing the Grayson Perry exhibit at the British Museum when we're down there in December...

By learning a song from a field-recording of a traditional singer that you're not keeping that tradition alive, rather you're doing something quite different. I respect the validity of that difference, and respect its outcomes, but as an artist it behoves me to stress that I'm not a collector or an archivist; neither am I an academic, but as an educated human being with a passion for Ethnomusicology and Folkloric Disciplines then I will continue to point out the glaring disparities between subject / object when it comes to a basic consideration of the various problems and agendas involved in one culture collecting the cultural residue of another, much less subjecting it to any sort of absolute definition or taxonomy. Problem is here on Mudcat it's difficult to have those sort of discussions without incurring the wrath of a couple of culprits whose orthodoxy and fundamentalism has inspired in me the notion of Folk as a Religion, rather than as a culture in its own right...

Subject: RE: 'Occupy English Folk Music!'
From: johncharles
Date: 10 Nov 11 - 12:52 PM

May have mislead you there Suibhne Astray,
"folk/traditional performers have to change" was my opinion. If you have a look at the article you will find something very different. the letters in response to the article are also very interesting.
john

Subject: RE: 'Occupy English Folk Music!'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Nov 11 - 01:09 PM

"Well, there we are - Jim has spoken so we can all just shut up and go about our business.
"I assume you have no answers to the points I made - your village idiot friend obviously hasn't
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: 'Occupy English Folk Music!'
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Nov 11 - 01:28 PM

I am more than happy with the concept of the tradition. But I did wonder before, maybe non to clearly, whether the tradition is either changeable or if can be replaced by a newer tradition in years to come.

I am pretty sure we don't know whether the ancient Britons sat around arguing whther the new music or the tradition was more important, but seeing as we do it, I believe it would be a safe theory. If so then, what was their tradition? And will the one we are talking about now still be there in another millenium or so?

Or has the tradition, as Ralph put it before, now been frozen because we no longer pass songs and lore down auraly? Or all all these things just 'The tradition' and, at whatever point in time you are, the music that was performed beyond living memory the tradition? Or all of these things?

Interesting debate. Glad it took this turn and that the original concept of a take-over was killed off:-)

DtG

Subject: RE: 'Occupy English Folk Music!'
From: BTNG
Date: 10 Nov 11 - 02:08 PM

Right Carroll......

And yeas(?) - it is about history and preservation - otherwise the big ballads will never survive the present revalists who almost collectively seem to have developed 'acute goldfish-memoryitis' and eternally whinge about their being "too long".

"the "big ballads" are too long?" you have documented proofs of these utterings and who uttered them I take it?

Subject: RE: 'Occupy English Folk Music!'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Nov 11 - 02:48 PM

Right Boeteng:
Suggest you look on some of the other threads. I think there was actually a thread asking what should be the permitted length of a song at a club - it was proposed that songs should be no longer than three minutes by one clown - it's a constant whine by snigger snoggwriters.
What planet do you occupy?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: 'Occupy English Folk Music!'
From: BTNG
Date: 10 Nov 11 - 03:10 PM

Well I'm sure "the clown" was taking into account the attention span factor of many people (or perhaps not), which is a valid point, if meant. A constant whine you say? interesting choice of words...Carroll.

Subject: RE: 'Occupy English Folk Music!'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Nov 11 - 03:19 PM

"which is a valid point,"
See what I mean Dumbo?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: 'Occupy English Folk Music!'
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 10 Nov 11 - 03:27 PM

Probably me ....they're too long.

I believe the baresarks used to sing individual ballads for three days at a time.

Its probably a case of finding the mindset. Objectively speaking most of the ballads aren't as long as a Miles Davis solo. But somehow I don't find them quite as compelling.

Subject: RE: 'Occupy English Folk Music!'
From: BTNG
Date: 10 Nov 11 - 03:34 PM

Gawd let me put it plainer so you understand...if you have your audiences attention you have it you have them engaged, you have them enthralled, I would hope, with the tale you are telling, but if you lose that attention, you may as well give up and go home. Unfortunately there will always be those whose attention doesn't go beyond the two and half to three minute mark, they would have found The Animals version of House Of The Rising Sun (Four and a half minutes) too long and Martin Carthy's rendition of The Famous Flower of Serving Me (9 minutes) well that would be well nigh impossible.
For me, personally, if the narrative of the song, regardless if it's trad or not, grips me then that's what it does, if it doesn't then it doesn't, the length of the piece is irrelevant.

Subject: RE: 'Occupy English Folk Music!'
From: BTNG
Date: 10 Nov 11 - 03:41 PM

The Famous Flower of Serving Men

Martin Carthy's rendition of an everyday tale of infanticide, transvestism, deception, magical animals, and burned-at-the-stake execution... ;-)

Subject: RE: 'Occupy English Folk Music!'
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 10 Nov 11 - 03:52 PM

I used to find ewan MacColl very compelling as a ballad singer, but I don't find his disembodied voice coming out of a record player engaging - not as I did the man himself. Whereas Miles - well i never saw him live. he was always disembodied - so to speak.

Subject: RE: 'Occupy English Folk Music!'
From: BTNG
Date: 10 Nov 11 - 03:56 PM

Al it's the case, I think, that some folk are better live than on records, however, like you, I've never saw Miles Davis in concert

Subject: RE: 'Occupy English Folk Music!'
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 10 Nov 11 - 04:01 PM

Perhaps Ewan needed to realise, he would be one day a disembodied voice. In a way - making a record is something different. You need to give the listener something to hang onto, perhaps.

I used to go anywhere to see Peggy and Ewan. The shorter stuff is still fine - particularly given Peggy's great accompaniments. But the ballads - I dunno, but I miss the charisma that his physical presence addded.

Anybody else feel like that?

Subject: RE: 'Occupy English Folk Music!'
From: BTNG
Date: 10 Nov 11 - 04:06 PM

But the ballads - I dunno, but I miss the charisma that his physical presence added.

I just finished listen to Carthy do Famous Flower, it's actually nine and half minutes in length , and while I was totally engaged from the beginning (being biased and all that to anything Waterson or Carthy or both together)I couldn't help thinking, that I really would love to be hearing this live in concert. to watch MC's guitar playing, while listening to him sing.

Subject: RE: 'Occupy English Folk Music!'
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 10 Nov 11 - 04:39 PM

Yes I prefer watching MC on DVD to just listening. Theres a great version of Famous Flower on the Guitar Maetsro's series - the Martin Carthy edition. Theres also some nice playing from Martin on the Wizz Jones DVD in the same series - Martin interviews Wizz.

Subject: RE: 'Occupy English Folk Music!'
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 10 Nov 11 - 06:27 PM

I've never saw Miles Davis in concert

Me neither, but I've been loving the DVD that came with the new edition of Bitches Brew and I've been blown away by the Isle of White footage on YouTube...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GmJwV3Xkl8M&feature=related

Subject: RE: 'Occupy English Folk Music!'
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 10 Nov 11 - 07:56 PM

Oh I liked the Miles of an earlier era, before things got electrfied. milestones and all that - the small groups - not Sketches of Spain, and Miles Ahead.

Subject: RE: 'Occupy English Folk Music!'
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 10 Nov 11 - 11:56 PM

Too many people are trying to stake a claim on the term "Tradition" or "Traditional." As if there is only one of them.

I remember being really annoyed at a graduate school classmate one time, as we went around the room introducing ourselves. She said she was from a "traditional American family" and proceeded to describe her Southern Baptist dad and Korean mom's ultra conservative and religious home life. Nothing like MY traditional family (Irish dad, Norwegian mom, four kids, dad was a teacher, mom stayed home, no religion to speak of, only in the distance, blah blah blah). In fact, neither of us was in a position to judge or be annoyed by the other's use (not appropriation) of "Traditional"

In the tradition of your communities, your counties, states, countries, you practice folk music. And no two Traditions are exactly alike.

SRS

Subject: RE: 'Occupy English Folk Music!'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Nov 11 - 02:59 AM

Thank you all for making my point for me so perfectly - 305 classic (Child) ballads - all no longer viable because they are "too long" for modern audiences - PATRONISING CRAP - IT'S THE CLUB ORGANISERS WITH THE CONCENTRATION PROBLEMS, NOT THE AUDIENCES.
I watched Peggy Seeger singing 'Fair Annie' to an capacity Irish audience last month - a room crammed full of people totally transfixed by a 14 minute unnacompanied ballad - but to be fair, traditional music is thriving here - half-a-dozen-plus weekly music and song sessions in this one-street town alone, and radio and television programmes on traditional music nightly.
I spent most of my life listening to and enjoying "too long" ballads - in MacColl's and Lloyds' and Belle and Sheila Stewarts', and Jennie Robertsons' and Duncan Williamson's and Walter Pardon's..... and all the other great ballad singer's cases, along with capacity audiences enjoying them with me - stop blaming the audiences for your own shallowness.
So you would jettison "the Muckle Sangs" (as Hamish Henderson put it) or "the high-watermark of our tradition - (MacColl) because you have driven away those audiences and replaced your residents and organisers with goldfish!!
That's what you "THAT'S WHAT YOU "COULDN'T PUT PLAINER" - PRATT!! (you stop this childish ill-mannered aggressiveness that you're noted for and I will).
It really is time to exctracted your collective heads out of your arses and take a look at the damage you've done to traditional music with your crass claims and your crap standards- it's the end result that counts.
"Too many people are trying to stake a claim on the term "Tradition" or "Traditional."
There is only one documented claim to "traditional" - the rest are undefined wannabe pretenders - but feel free to provide another definition at any time.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: 'Occupy English Folk Music!'
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 11 Nov 11 - 03:24 AM

You've got your perceived traditions Jim, which you (quite rightly) feel strongly about.

I have my perceived traditions. Don't make the mistake of thinking I feel any less strongly about what I perceive of, as tradition.

Neither of us has the right to call each other's taste as crap. Not in polite exchanges.

Subject: RE: 'Occupy English Folk Music!'
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 11 Nov 11 - 03:31 AM

the small groups

I have an especial fondness for the 2nd great quartet who were certainly moving apace in their prolific studio output, and live too where they concentrated more on standards than original compositions, such as this mesmerising rendering of Autumn Leaves from 1964:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SX4i9CieZYk&feature=related

But I must admit my deep love of Miles begins with In a Silent Way and I regard Bitches Brew as one of the greatest things ever, though my all time favourite is the album On the Corner...

*

Music changes; traditional process is largely a matter of paying dues and moving it on; the career of Miles Davis is a classic example of this, even in this latter days when he was enchanted by a new sort of standard. His extended beguiling explorations of Michael Jackson & Cindi Lauper notwithstanding, I think I'm one of the only Miles Davis fan who thinks Doo-Bop is a thing of rare beauty, though Easy Mo Bee's rapping is tenth rate even by the old-school standards of the time. One can only wonder how it might have been had Miles teamed up with the more dynamic forces such as the Jungle Brothers or De La Soul.

Individual and collective humanity is the key to what music is; it certainly determines what traditions are; we each each have that unique spark of passion for our respective cause which drives us to love what do love, do what we do, and to love what we do. We are all of us Traditional in the sense of paying our dues and doing things our own way, whatever the idioms we're working in. In that I doubt we have any sort of choice at all. I don't think The Tradition was any different - certainly not if the Fossil Record is anything to go by; the six texts of Child #38 imply a dynamic culture every bit as fluidly creative as Hip Hop, and the lyrical dexterity of Butter and Cheese and All or Stanley Market examplifies the idiosyncratic mastery of a vernacular art on a par with anything before or since. Popular Music changes; it moves on as people move on as societal conditions change and priorities with them. Music only truly dies when people die, and people are greater than music; without people there would be no music. Music is always the result of individual human passion, genius & idiosyncrasy - be it Miles Davis, Davie Stewart or Tommy Armstrong: each payed their dues back to their community, each was a master of his respective tradition, yet each was well & truly 'out there' albeit loved & respected for it, however so guardedly at times. The Folk Revival revels in the notion of collectivity, yet it would be nothing without the specific individuals whose passion & genius shaped our notions of it, from Cecil Sharp to Ewan MacColl, Martin Carthy, Hamish Henderson, Seamus Ennis, Peter Bellamy et al. all the way down to we happy few who routinely squabble (for the best of reasons? God, let's hope so!) on this forum. All human life is here; long may that continue!

Subject: RE: 'Occupy English Folk Music!'
From: theleveller
Date: 11 Nov 11 - 03:36 AM

Jim said: "A workable, (if in need of intelligent up-dating) well-researched, recorded and documented definition exists and is to be found in most good dictionaries,"

Well, Jim, try as I might, I can't find any definition of 'The Tradition'. There are a good half dozen or more definitions of 'tradition', but that's not what I was talking about. I asked my lexicographer friend (editor of The Oxford Dictionary of Modern English Idioms, as I mentioned before) what was the definition of 'The Tradition' and he said, "you mean 'tradition'?". I replied, "No - THE Tradition," and he just said, "Which tradition?" Which is a long-winded way of making my original point: I don't understand what 'The Tradition' is. There's traditional music, traditional customs, traditional legends - in fact, plenty of varied, disparate and fascination traditions across the world, but no one, overarching thing called 'The Tradition'. Semantics, maybe, but I think we need to be clear what we are discussing.

Subject: RE: 'Occupy English Folk Music!'
From: theleveller
Date: 11 Nov 11 - 03:53 AM

I meant to add that it may be the onset of age-related pedantry, but it's one of those niggles that makes me cringe, just as when someone refers to their spouse as 'The Wife' – reducing their lifetime partner to a nameless, nebulous and largely irrelevant adjunct.

Subject: RE: 'Occupy English Folk Music!'
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 11 Nov 11 - 04:08 AM

It really is time to exctracted your collective heads out of your arses and take a look at the damage you've done to traditional music with your crass claims and your crap standards

With all due respect, Jim - I think it's you who have the head-up-arse problem here. Just because a highly specialised audience have the patience to listen to a celebrity artist with a Goddess-like reputation singing a long ballad is of little relevance to people in the UK clubs who might well regard such things with suspicion. Horses for courses after all. The state-funded folk-show in Ireland is a different beast to what we have over here in the UK where if someone sings a 10-minute ballad it'll probably mean someone else might not get a chance to sing. Traditionally the long ballads weren't meant for this sort of consumption anyway, much less performance; same with storytelling. At the end of the day, it's all a matter of context, and respect, and stepping down from this absurd high-horse of yours whereby you insist that ballads are somehow of a higher standing than your average episode of EastEnders or Corry. People regularly sit through 30-minute episodes of Corry - I don't think even your most hardened Ballad Enthusiast could make such a claim, no matter who the singer was. As for storytelling - used to be that 'feature length' meant 90-minutes; these days you feel short changed if it's anything less than 120. So, attention spans are alive and well; just maybe not when it comes to artificial renderings of old story songs we all know the endings of anyway. I love ballads, but if it came to a choice of 13-minutes of unaccompanied Peggy Seeger or 90-minutes of Planet of the Apes, chances are I'd choose the latter. I routinely listen to Miles Davis tracks pushing the 30-minute mark; and one of my favourite things is a recording of My Favourite Things by John Coltrane, live in Japan in 1966, which comes in at the 50-minute mark. One of my favourite albums of all time is DDD by my friend Daisuke Suzuki which consists of a 50-minute unedited field-recording of ducks in a Tokyo park. I can sit for hours listening to Purcell sonatas or the sound of lapwings and curlews out on the estuary. But, if someone got up in a UK Folk Club and insisted on giving us their plagiarised rendering of Martin Carthy's masterful version of Ray Fisher's heavenly setting of Willie's Lady, I'd probably take it as a cue to head to the bar. Nothing to do with club organisers or a conspiracy ahainst The Muckle Sangs, rather just a sense of fair play really.

My favourite traditional ballad performance of all is THIS, in which Mrs Pearl Brewer brings an essential reduction of The Cruel Mother in at around the two minute mark.

Subject: RE: 'Occupy English Folk Music!'
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 11 Nov 11 - 04:27 AM

"I used to go anywhere to see Peggy and Ewan. The shorter stuff is still fine - particularly given Peggy's great accompaniments. But the ballads - I dunno, but I miss the charisma that his physical presence addded.

Anybody else feel like that?"

Sort of, Al. The thing about Ewan was that he wasn't just a performer but also an "ideas man" (I think that he once described himself as such). Thus if you admired his artistry you also got, as part of the 'package', the opportunity to share his excitement in all of his ideas about art, music, drama, history, tradition, politics etc., etc. This, for me at least, was a heady brew. Again, for me, his performances of the traditional ballads were central to his appeal as an artist. Much as I am grateful that recordings of his singing exist and are available, they can, of course, never replace his live performances.

Subject: RE: 'Occupy English Folk Music!'
From: TheSnail
Date: 11 Nov 11 - 05:57 AM

Tomorrow night at the Lewes Saturday Folk Club, Chris Coe and John Adams. Lots of ballads and traditional songs and tunes. Chris Coe did us an extended ballad session at last year's Lewes Folk Festival. We do at least one of those a year; we had Brian Peters this year. They are invariably well attended.
If you can't make that, try our Sussex All Day Sing at Barcombe on 21st January 2012. Starting at 11am with an hour of traditional tunes, it's then solid singing through to 11pm. Obviously not all ballads; we'd never get round the room. It was amusing this year when a young chap sang Simon and Garfunkel's The Boxer to a room full of crusty old traddies. We all sang along including the cymbal noises. "Lie La Lie (tusssh) Lie La Lie La La Lie Lie Lie, Lie La Lie (tusssh)...."

Subject: RE: 'Occupy English Folk Music!'
From: Barb'ry
Date: 11 Nov 11 - 06:10 AM

I love ballads, love the sense of history in them, the story in and around them, their rhythm and pace and am thankful that there are still sessions in clubs and at festivals where they can be sung and celebrated. To me, they represent our heritage, both in words and also our 'aural/oral' history from the days before mass production of books etc.

I appreciate that many people go to a club to perform, rather than listen but (in my opinion) it is sad that we have, in many places, lost the ability to 'share' songs, to find out about them, their backgrounds and stories, in our need to be heard.

Don't know the answer but I would hate to see a 'time limit' on songs, removing chunks of our repertoires and history in one tick of the clock. This is just my take on the matter...

Subject: RE: 'Occupy English Folk Music!'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Nov 11 - 06:23 AM

"The state-funded folk-show in Ireland"
You seem to be continulindg to distort (deliberately, to make your non existant case) the situation in Ireland.
Irish music has been ongoing as a performed art for at least the forty years I have been visiting here - so much so that the arts establishment are no longer able to ignore irt, as they did up to ten years ago.
Irish traditional music has not compromised as the English revival has, not complained that the songs are too long, the music too old hat or in need of modification to suit new tastes - it is, and has always stood on its own love of anf respect for the music - you do no good to your case by lying.
The same goes for your loaded and - as ever misleading post.
Your own performance makes clear that you neither like, understand or particularly care for traditional forms - fine; your choice, but at least make an effort not to try and force your own standards of others - dishonesty gets no-one anywhere in these discussions.
If we throw away the ballads because they are too long, we may as well throw Dickens and Tolstoy on the same bonfire
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: 'Occupy English Folk Music!'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Nov 11 - 06:57 AM

"Goddess-like reputation singing a long ballad "
Equally distorting and dishonest (and typical)
One of the hearting things about Peggy's performance last month was the fact that the overwhelmingly appreciative audience wwas not one for "Goddess" like performances of traditional song.
This is their local festival listing at the Shannonside 13th Winter Music Weekend
Click here
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: 'Occupy English Folk Music!'
From: johncharles
Date: 11 Nov 11 - 07:50 AM

Jim Carroll I believe lives in Miltown Malbay a place which by his own admission where he and his partner had years before found
   "amongst the singers and musicians of Co. Clare, they discovered a healthy attitude towards indigenous music. They recorded songs and stories from the region around Miltown Malbay" (http://www.folkmusic.net/htmfiles/inart558.htm)
In a post above he remarks that,
"traditional music is thriving here - half-a-dozen-plus weekly music and song sessions in this one-street town alone, and radio and television programmes on traditional music nightly."
In a very small community with a strong tradition and subsidised broadcasting it is no surprise that traditions persist. I live in a large working class town in the north of England where the predominant social interests over the last 30/40 years seem to have been beer drinking and pop music. I think that the fact that even small pockets of people retain an interest in folk music ( even if it may not live up to Mr Carroll's exacting standards) in this type of setting is even more remarkable than it surviving in a small time capsule in Miltown Malbay; which I notice advertises itself as the home of folk music in Ireland.
john

Subject: RE: 'Occupy English Folk Music!'
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 11 Nov 11 - 08:41 AM

' a large working class town in the north of England where the predominant social interests over the last 30/40 years seem to have been beer drinking and pop music'

Sounds the sort of place that has produced everything worthwhile and memorable in folk music. Not some folk park where the audience sit there 'appreciating' like a load of Japanese tourists in Stratford.

Subject: RE: 'Occupy English Folk Music!'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Nov 11 - 09:17 AM

John
My picture is a national one, the grants are still coming from The Arts Council of Ireland, the almost nightly programmes are largely on National television and radio - the fortunes of traditional music - without compromise) is an Irish one.
We have 2 national Traditional archives (one - ITMA putting material on line regularly) which of of world class and a gradual blossoming of local archives - one in Clare (see OaC on the web).
I have lived in 3 of the largest cities in Britain (Liverpool, Manchester and London) and know the problems of presenting folk music in an urban setting, but please don't make it an excuse for compromising our traditional music out of existance.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: 'Occupy English Folk Music!'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Nov 11 - 10:38 AM

From a recent Iris Times article
Jim Carroll

Music lovers may have less money to spend on gigs and concerts these days, but that hasn't stopped trad fans from breathing new life into sessions across the country writes SIOBHAN LONG
TO JUDGE by the volume of listings submitted to this newspaper's The Ticket magazine each week over the past year, there has been a steady rise in the number of traditional concerts, gigs and sessions throughout the country. This is happening at a time when punters' disposable income is shrinking.
The long-dormant Harcourt Sessions in Dublin were reignited on Monday nights last year, and many other examples can be found across the country. Are traditional musicians more inventive at a time of recession? Are more traditional music fans going to gigs than lovers of jazz, classical or rock and pop?
Flautist and promoter Conor Byrne recently established The Liffey Banks Sessions in the Grand Social in Dublin, a Tuesday-night club that's been called the "Meeting Place for the 21st century", in homage to the late, much-lamented folk club from the 1970s. The Liffey Banks Sessions has lured some of the best traditional musicians and singers to its stage over its two months in existence. Luka Bloom, Fidil, Lúnasa and recently, Máirtín O'Connor and his band, all performed.
"My whole life has revolved around organising clubs," Byrne says. His mother, Eilish Moore, ran a folk club in Mother Redcaps for years, and last year Conor ran The County Sessions in Dublin's Button Factory. "I really just wanted to generate a community of traditional musicians and lovers of folk music, and create a meeting place for those people to come together, staging quality music – new and upcoming – as well as music of the past; mixing them together in a quality venue with really good music production. That's always been my goal. And so far, that's the feedback I've been getting: people leaving the Liffey Banks feeling uplifted by the whole experience."
John Carty is a fiddle and banjo player who makes no secret of his pragmatism in the face of this downturn. Does the necessity of earning a crust in tough times mean that some musicians are tapping into aspects of their creativity that they mightn't have previously explored? "Absolutely," Carty says, and while acknowledging, "you can't get away from that word 'recession'", he's happy to be working as consistently now as he was during the boom.
"I find when I play with [trad fourpiece] Patrick Street, I tap into something different to when I play with Matt Molloy and Arty McGlynn. Andy Irvine sent me some new songs over the summer, and as Dónal Lunny said: 'They're not just songs, they're an obstacle course.'"
The real spark that keeps the music burning for Carty comes from learning new tunes from old masters. Of his recent acquisition of vintage Paddy Killoran recordings he says: "It's going to be a long winter, and I'll spend that time absorbing all that music. Then maybe later, I might create something, reinvent it and make it my own. To get something like that: it's gold dust."
Music Network curates, promotes and funds traditional, jazz and classical live music, building audiences through inventive programming. Sharon Rollston, acting chief executive, believes Music Network's long-term strategy of nurturing audiences is paying dividends now, with attendances up at its most recent traditional tour, featuring Breandán Begley, Tommy Peoples and Laoise Kelly.
"The success of that tour has led to the musicians talking about seeking further funding now to record together," Rollston says, "and that's an element that's over and above the actual concert experience, in terms of us helping the development of the musicians.
"Another Music Network tour featuring concertina and fiddle player Niamh Ní Charra, Basque Alboka horn-pipe player Ibon Koteron and guitarist Gavin Ralston has recently yielded a CD too, Ó Euskadi go hÉireann , as well as a Basque tour."
Louise Walsh of Music Network has also seen a rise in self-sufficiency and professionalism among traditional musicians. "Artists are far more proactive than before," she says. "We've had more trad musicians engage with us on various courses and schemes, such as Making Overtures, which aims to empower artists to get gigs and promote themselves. It goes hand-in-hand with the rise in online promotion and the whole DIY ethic around that."
Accordian player Christy Leahy has also been slowly building an audience in Ballincollig's music venue The White Horse. He's happy that the venue is drawing a growing audience by dint of careful programming.
"One of my biggest challenges was getting people used to coming to a completely new place," he says, "so we've been getting as many well-known names to begin with such as [Altan and De Dannan] with the idea being that if they enjoyed them, they might come out to see musicians they may not be familiar with. I find I'm energised by it because I think the more it happens, the more opportunities there will be for musicians to play and for people to hear new music."

Trad scene: venues to visit
Dublin : The Harcourt Sessions, Harcourt Hotel (Mondays); The Liffey Banks Sessions – The Grand Social, Liffey Street (Tuesdays); The Clé Club, The Flowing Tide, Middle Abbey Street (Wednesdays); An Góilín Singers Club, The Teachers Club, Parnell Square (Fridays)
Cork : Cork Singers Club, An Spailpín Fánach (Sundays); De Barra's, Clonakilty; The White Horse, Ballincollig; The Pavilion, Carey's Lane, Cork city
West and northwest: Barry's, Grange, Sligo; McGrory's, Culdaff, Donegal; The Crane Bar, Galway city

Subject: RE: 'Occupy English Folk Music!'
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 11 Nov 11 - 11:50 AM

Nevertheless for you lot to have a Calton Weaver or a Wild Rover to sing about, you had to have had an original bloke who was a Wild Rover or a Calton Weaver, and you can bet your bum he didn't hang around places like Bunratty Castle.

Subject: RE: 'Occupy English Folk Music!'
From: johncharles
Date: 11 Nov 11 - 11:52 AM

Dear Mr Carroll, I am not trying to compromise traditional music out of existence. I feel that I do my bit for the cause of traditional music. The following are ballads which I have sung and will no doubt continue to sing in public.
The Twa Sisters, The Cruel Brother, The Cruel Mother, Lizie Wan, Young Beichan, The Unquiet Grave, Little Musgrave and Lady Barnard, Lamkin , The Great Silkie of Sule Skerry, Mary Hamilton , The Bonny Earl of Murray, Hughie Grame, The Bonnie House o Airlie, Geordie, Bonnie James Campbell , Eppie Morrie , Lizie Lindsay, Andrew Lammie, The New-Slain Knight, John of Hazelgreen, Bonny Barbara Allen
I confess that I usually adopt some form of accompaniment when singing but I usually try to be sensitive to the song; e.g.
bonny george /james campbell
However, the audience for this sort of material is, given the changes in music culture, very small. There are some encouraging signs such as the recent start up of The Sheffield Ballads club.
sheffield ballads club
I don't believe anyone is wanting to deny the traditional heritage, and as you have said the recorded oral/written records will always be with us. It is the live music scene which has changed and unlike amateurs like me some people are trying to make a living from their music and must therefore be sensitive to their audiences.
John platt

Subject: RE: 'Occupy English Folk Music!'
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 11 Nov 11 - 12:03 PM

"However, the audience for this sort of material is, given the changes in music culture, very small"
True, but the audience for any sort of what is loosely called "folk music" is tiny, compared to the audience for pop, rock and rap.
So what?

Subject: RE: 'Occupy English Folk Music!'
From: Banjiman
Date: 11 Nov 11 - 12:08 PM

....... I know I'm helping to kill off folk clubs (by running one?), but we've got a dedicated ballad session (run by Mr Suibhne O'Piobaireachd himself) next weekend at The Kirkby Fleetham Micro-fest.

But, oh dear, we've got a songwriting competition as well....... it's the fires of traddy damnation for me now is it?

We've also got a mixture of acts..... some traddy, some who write their own songs. Actually most of the acts do both. I'm pretty sure most of the attendees will enjoy both as well.

......sorry, what was this thread about again??

Subject: RE: 'Occupy English Folk Music!'
From: TheSnail
Date: 11 Nov 11 - 12:32 PM

Thanks for mentioning the Sheffield Ballads Club, johncharles. It gives me an excuse to mention that our next Ballad Forum at the Lewes Saturday Folk Club is with Paul & Liz Davenport on 3rd December.

Thought your Bonny George Campbell was great.