BS: Brexit again

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Teribus
Date: 02 Dec 16 - 06:52 AM

Steve Shaw - 02 Dec 16 - 04:59 AM

I didn't say anywhere that "you thought that..."

But you seem to be saying that I claimed it here:

"Teribus, you won't be the first person to be accused of racism by claiming that "our welfare services, housing, education and labour markets are being swamped by the current level of immigration."

The original version is perfectly true:

"Ordinary people up and down the country are apparently concerned that our welfare services, housing, education and labour markets are being swamped by the current level of immigration - that is why they voted as they did." - Teribus

Expressed in MSM reports and analysis of results by political commentators of the EU referendum to explain how traditional labour voters turned out in droves to Vote LEAVE (Sunderland IIRC over 70%).

Now then just for a change answer the question asked:

"When was the critical breakpoint for all the investment and planning to accommodate the influx of people our country has experienced since the expansion of the EU and the refugee crisis we see as a result of repression and crack downs by Governments in Eritrea, Libya, Syria? It takes time (years) to plan and build hospitals, schools, transport facilities and houses and normally those tasked with predicting and planning those things operate from models based on current situation and probable predictions. Now back in the 1980s none of those planners or Government economists had the slightest inkling at all that Anthony Charles Lynton Blair would get up one morning and introduce complete unrestricted access to the UK."

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: The Sandman
Date: 02 Dec 16 - 07:00 AM

the daily mail is owned by a tax exile , some patriot.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: DMcG
Date: 02 Dec 16 - 08:06 AM

Anyone inclined to talk about the impact of Brexit on the Richmond Park by-election? Given that voting against was a key part of her campaign it is at least plausible that she is bound by that rather than the referendum. That is not the case in general, I would say, but as she has been elected since the referendum I would say the position is genuinely different.

It makes the chances of an early election very remote, I think.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Dec 16 - 09:25 AM

"the daily mail is owned by a tax exile , some patriot."
And was once owned by a Hitler/Blackshirt supporter - a history to be proud of.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Dec 16 - 09:30 AM

Thanks for backtracking, Teribus. Forcing you to greater accuracy is quite an achievement.

Sarah Olney is going to vote against the triggering of Article 50. We need a good few more like her who can see that triggering the damn thing is a turkey voting for Christmas. The people should never have been given a say in a referendum, and the way it was conducted by both sides is abundant confirmation of that. But now that we've had one, once the terms of exit are made clear to us, we should have not the same referendum again but a second one on whether the terms are good enough to give the government tbe go-ahead to invoke Article 50.

Goldsmith, the racist Trust Fund Kid, made the by-election his protest against a runway. What the idiot should have seen was that this is a non-issue in Richmond. Neither of the other main candidates disagreed with him. So the LibDems made it instead into a brexit issue - and wiped out one of the biggest Tory majorities in the country. That has changed the agenda on brexit. It will shift even more so as long as the Supreme Court does the right thing next month. We're getting nearer to seeing democracy over the horizon.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Dec 16 - 12:11 PM

The Richmond election was in response to the expansion of Heathrow.
The Richmond voters, like most well off metropolitans, had voted remain and the Lib Dems cleverly chose to campaign on that not Heathrow.
It turned out that the voters of Richmond were less bothered about more planes and bulldozed villages than suppressing the uppity oiks.


Few constituencies voted remain, so this is not a game changer.

The people should never have been given a say in a referendum,

Spoken like a true democrat.
How would you have stopped UKIP offering one?
If only UKIP had, the election result would have been very different.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Dec 16 - 01:12 PM

Well as a matter of fact I know Richmond very well and have spent many days there this year and last. Planes are a major issue there, but in this election all the main candidates were anti-runway so there was nothing to kick against. Sarah Olney is just as much against the airport expansion and bulldozing villages as the Trust Fund Kid, so your point falls flat on its face. Maybe the people of Richmond, rather than generally just wanting to have it back at the oiks, are better at spotting a racist, spoiled-brat charlatan than you are.

There is nothing democratic about a referendum in which millions of less-qualified people are asked to decide an issue that the more-qualified MPs that are elected to represent them should be deciding, a situation made far worse by a disgraceful campaign that did everything to lie and scare and nothing to inform. If that's your idea of democracy, I feel sorry for you.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: DMcG
Date: 02 Dec 16 - 01:40 PM

... So this is not a game changer...

I am not sure I agree, for two reasons. At first glance they may sound contractors, but they aren't.

Firstly, imagine any by-election where the campaign focuses on Brexit. If the elected person supported leave, it has no overall effect: that is happening anyway, all other things being equal. But if the elected person is for leave, it does alter the balance. So the leave side can only lose in this process. There may not be enough by-elections to affect things, but that is the direction.

The second thing is that the government does have other concerns, not just Brexit. But this is a strong indication that the Brexit argument is likely to be more potent that traditional party lines. And a UKIP candidate can probably tell a stronger leave message than any other party. So this suggests - no more than that - that UKIP will be strengthened. And equally in some areas, the most pro remain is likely to do well, be it LibDem or Green.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: DMcG
Date: 02 Dec 16 - 01:43 PM

Contradictory. Autocorrect again!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Teribus
Date: 02 Dec 16 - 02:19 PM

"There is nothing democratic about a referendum in which millions of less-qualified people are asked to decide an issue that the more-qualified MPs that are elected to represent them should be deciding"

Dying to hear what makes those Professional politicos "more-qualified"?

These like the more-qualified MPs who lied to the British public in taking us into what they knew in 1973 would become the Federalist EU?

These the more qualified MPs who would naturally wish to remain in the EU in the hope of access and self advancement in what is known to be the greatest gravy train in the world - the unaudited EU Commission. Want an example Shaw - Just take a look at Lords Kinnock.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Iains
Date: 02 Dec 16 - 03:35 PM

"More qualified MP's" Now that is an interesting concept.
Would you care to flesh out just what these qualifications are Mr Shaw?
Trousering amounts from the public purse would appear one qualification,
but I fail to see how this aids the electorate and I could never understand paying for cleaning moats either. Perhaps that was in order to reintroduce the ducking stool.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: akenaton
Date: 02 Dec 16 - 04:01 PM

They are also the "more qualified" MP's who thought THEY should decide who was to be leader of the Labour Party!!! :0)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Dec 16 - 07:08 PM

I really do think that MPs are 'more qualified'. After all, it is what they are supposed to do for a living. That are actualy paid a considerable amount of money to make these sort of decisions. They are certainly far more qualified than I am, than the bloke in the pub is and even more than the hack behind the sound bites in the stun and the daily heil.

Now, I am more than happy for people to call me naive for believing these things. Maybe I am. But, if we cannot trust the politicians to make make these decisions, just who can we trust?

Not that I trust them at all, but they seem to be the best we have...

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Dec 16 - 07:22 PM

Well, Iains, there are far better targets for you bile than MPs when it comes to pay. Let's take the bankers, for example, who wrecked this economy a few years ago despite taking home multi-millions in bonuses which, oddly, don't seem to have dried up. The damage ran to hundreds of billions. The expenses scandal cost us a million and a bit, very wrong of course, but let's keep a bit of perspective, shall we? Many a doctor, dentist and headteacher gets paid more than an MP, not to speak of telly celebrities, company bosses and those bankers. And an MP could be out on his ear after five years, lest we forget, no notice, no redundancy, no warning. Still, that is hardly the point of the attack from you and Teribus, which questions my comment that MPs are more qualified to make major policy decisions than the millions of ordinary people.

Almost all MPs are members of political parties, each of which has its own distinctive policies. I expect my MP to understand those policies and to be able to argue for them. I also expect my MP to be fully au fait with the workings of government and the implications of government policies and strategies. When they are first elected they will be on a steep learning curve which will come on top of the political work they have done in their pre-candidate life. That's their job. Members of the public do not have any of these obligations. MPs are, therefore, far more qualified than the general public to make decisions predicated on in-depth understanding of the issues at stake. I really don't know why I have to explain this to you.

Of course, if you're one of the "all these politicians are the bleedin' same and we should get rid of the lot of 'em" brigade, all this will go straight over your head. The worrying thing in that circumstance is that you have the vote.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Dec 16 - 08:20 PM

Oh, and Lord Kinnock isn't an MP, Teribus, not for over twenty years. 😂

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Stanron
Date: 02 Dec 16 - 08:36 PM

Come on Steve, you must know that both Lord and Lady Kinnock worked for the EU before retiring with an estimated £10 million pension pot. There's still lots of gravy on that train. That's why so many of our politicians were, and in some cases still are, so keen for us to remain.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Dec 16 - 08:58 PM

The conversation here is about whether MPs are more qualified than the general public. Teribus doesn't really agree and he gave me an example of one to illustrate -- Neil Kinnock, who hasn't been an MP since 1995. Do try to keep up. Would it make you happy if I told you that I think Kinnock is a total pillock?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Stanron
Date: 02 Dec 16 - 09:36 PM

Are you suggesting that because he is no longer an MP he is no longer more qualified? Or that UK MPs are more qualified than MEPs? Perhaps if your posts made more sense I would be better able to keep up.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Teribus
Date: 03 Dec 16 - 02:25 AM

Steve Shaw - 02 Dec 16 - 08:20 PM

"Oh, and Lord Kinnock isn't an MP, Teribus, not for over twenty years. 😂"

Perfectly true Shaw, but that was why I referred people to him and his wife (Both of whom are Lords drawing £150 and £300 per day). Both were elected as Labour representatives Neil as an MP and wife Glenys as an MEP, Neil proved unelectable as Leader of the Labour Party and never became Prime Minister. So he was then put forward without any election process to become a - EU COMMISSIONER - the first prize when it comes to the EU Gravy Train. Having both clambered aboard this "golden lunch ticket" my, my, how their fortunes have grown. They serve as an example to all our younger professional politicians who have never held a job outside of their own party's political machinery how to become a millionaire.

Got the point now Shaw 😂😂😂😂😂

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: DMcG
Date: 03 Dec 16 - 03:01 AM

got the point now?

I don't know about Steve, but I certainly haven't.   The question was whether a practicing or retired MP should have a deeper understanding of the implications of leaving the EU than a general member of the public. Whether they are paragons of virtue or slime balls is not the point. Whether they leave impoverished or with vast sums in deposits in Luxembourg is not the point. Whether the EU is a gravy train or not is not the point - it may well be a reason to vote leave but has nothing whatever to do with the question. Now I admit Steve using the word "qualification" was not ideal, but it is obvious enough what he meant and it is plain silly to obsess about the word.

What strikes me most about this thread is it is fixated on the referendum that is in the past. There is a huge amount of future stuff about Brexit, characterised by hard or soft. There is the recent by-election and what it means for future elections. There is the recent discussion between May and Merkel about the status of ex pats on both sides. Why is this ignored to prattle on about Kinnoch and Co?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Dec 16 - 04:23 AM

Dave,

Now, I am more than happy for people to call me naive for believing these things. Maybe I am. But, if we cannot trust the politicians to make make these decisions, just who can we trust?

That is somewhat different to your previously stated view!

" I am a cynic when it comes to politicians"

"Sorry to those who feel that the politicians lied to them. That is what they do for a living. Welcome to reality."

"If any MPs thought it was legally binding then they are fools. I suspect that, like many other politicians, they are not fools but are lying. Although that is merely my opinion but born out of experience."

"Many promises were made by politicians that have now been broken. The only surprise there is that some people seem shocked by this."

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Dec 16 - 04:30 AM

Catching up - probably missed a bit here and there
Jim Carroll
A reminder
"every time you mention the name Woodcock I know I've got through to you and you are getting rattled.""
"Oh Shaw please don't be so coy"
"Perfectly true Shaw,"
"Got the point now Shaw"
Probably because Carroll
Really Carroll
Keep floundering about Carroll
So all in all Christmas
For JOM:
Christmas
No need for reminders JOM I have nothing but the utmost contempt for you and everything you stand for. Not many humans wander this planet without one single redeeming feature - you seem to have managed that without even trying.
The Truth according to JOM - thick as shit and proud of it
I will repeat IT YET AGAIN FOR THE BENEFIT OF THOSE AMONG US WHO ARE TOO BLOODY THICK TO UNDERSTAND PLAIN ENGLISH (i.e. YOU RAGGY)
"complete and utter buffoon"
"That by the way THICKO "
"clueless ignoramus of truly astounding degree"
"Carroll"
"Have you found an echo JOM?"
Or have you always wandered through life making a complete and utter JOM-like CUNT of yourself?
Carroll
"Here is a link for you Jom:"
"By the way JOM"
"how boastful a man can get doesn't it JOM?"
"Don't worry JOM"
You really should read our own posts sometime - it would help avoid the foot-in-mouths - the "Rattle of an Simple Man", as the screenplay writer described it.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Dec 16 - 06:26 AM

Yes, you are right, Keith. I don't trust politicians and I didn't put that last point over very well. What I was trying to say is that maybe I am naive to believe we can trust them to do the job that they are well paid to do. I thought that is what I did say and the the last line, that you omitted, I thought clarified it completely IE Not that I trust them at all, but they seem to be the best we have... But maybe I am also naive to think that everyone will understand what I am trying to put across. I should know better by now I suppose :-(

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Dec 16 - 06:45 AM

Cheers, DMcG. You saved me a bit of ink there. By the way, I don't think I used the word "qualification" with regard to MPs, implying that they've passed some sort of exam and grabbed themselves a certificate. My point is that we should expect our MPs to be a damn sight more knowledgeable when it comes to the economy and politics than the average voter by dint of their work experiences. On the whole I think they are, and whether or not they've cheated the expenses system or aspire to move onto the gravy train or get £300 per day for snoozing in the Lords has no bearing on that. Teribus is trying to wriggle out of his blunder by going on the attack instead of saying "oops!" Normal!

Saying that they're generally more knowledgeable, by the way, does not imply that they are all honest, trustworthy and not moneygrabbing, before I get accused of claiming that they're all paragons.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Teribus
Date: 03 Dec 16 - 06:50 AM

Glad you put that reminder up again Carroll (That is your name isn't it?) If those reading the thread read your posts and then read your reminder list they will fully understand what I have been on about for all these years. It will remind everyone that you are truly clueless and gormless to an astounding degree.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Dec 16 - 07:01 AM

He was only quoting you. You are far and away the most aggressive, abrasive, arrogant and insulting poster on this forum. When you get things wrong you won't retract. These are descriptions of you, not insults. And I fully expect, within minutes, a riposte that describes me in, er, less than complimentary terms that will absolutely confirm what I've just said.


Fire away!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Teribus
Date: 03 Dec 16 - 07:20 AM

No need Shaw - you make a big enough fool of yourself without the need for embellishment by anyone else.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Dec 16 - 08:36 AM

Good! Moving swiftly on...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: akenaton
Date: 03 Dec 16 - 09:26 AM

I have found that conservatives are seldom wrong in debate they deal in verifiable facts whereas socialist, of whom I am one, are hardly ever right.


The reason of course is that conservatives see the world as it is and actually believe what they espouse, we on the other hand see the world as we would like it to be and only a tiny minority understand or truly believe in our stated views.

I admit to enjoying Teribus putting you all through the mincer...I know its a sin against "liberalism".......but I cant help it.

It's the desperation which takes over when you realise he has you cornered and there is nothing for it but turn tail and run.
That's when the attempts to get the thread closed start.....highly entertaining.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Dec 16 - 09:44 AM

"what I have been on about for all these years. "
Whoops – nearly missed this – an actual admission that you are a loutish ill-mannered bullying thus
That was a close one!
Jim Carroll

A reminder
"every time you mention the name Woodcock I know I've got through to you and you are getting rattled.""
It will remind everyone that you are truly clueless and gormless to an astounding degree.
"Got the point now Shaw"
Probably because Carroll
Really Carroll
Keep floundering about Carroll
So all in all Christmas
For JOM:
Christmas
No need for reminders JOM I have nothing but the utmost contempt for you and everything you stand for. Not many humans wander this planet without one single redeeming feature - you seem to have managed that without even trying.
The Truth according to JOM - thick as shit and proud of it
I will repeat IT YET AGAIN FOR THE BENEFIT OF THOSE AMONG US WHO ARE TOO BLOODY THICK TO UNDERSTAND PLAIN ENGLISH (i.e. YOU RAGGY)
"complete and utter buffoon"
"That by the way THICKO "
"clueless ignoramus of truly astounding degree"
"Carroll"
"Have you found an echo JOM?"
Or have you always wandered through life making a complete and utter JOM-like CUNT of yourself?
Carroll
"Here is a link for you Jom:"
"By the way JOM"
"how boastful a man can get doesn't it JOM?"
"Don't worry JOM"

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: bobad
Date: 03 Dec 16 - 09:52 AM

It's the desperation which takes over when you realise he has you cornered and there is nothing for it but turn tail and run.
That's when the attempts to get the thread closed start.....highly entertaining.

That is sure to launch some entertaining, brightly coloured, large font sputtering.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Greg F.
Date: 03 Dec 16 - 10:10 AM

conservatives see the world as it is and actually believe what they espouse

Trump, Trumpists, and Trumpism immediatly destroy that argument.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Iains
Date: 03 Dec 16 - 10:33 AM

Are some contributing to the Brexit debate or merely honing their skill set in cut and paste?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Dec 16 - 11:12 AM

"The reason of course is that conservatives see the world as it is and actually believe what they espouse,"
Extraordinary
http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/tories-have-forgotten-that-thatcher-wasnt-just-a-terrorist-sympathiser-but-close-friends-with-one-10507850.html
"whereas socialist, of whom I am one, "
Even more extraordinary
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: akenaton
Date: 03 Dec 16 - 11:37 AM

Oh I still keep the faith Jim, it's like a religion really. I live more in hope than expectation these days, seen too many real socialists go to their graves.... their dreams unfulfilled.

I've stopped arguing the toss with Keith and Mr T....nowadays I'm on a learning curve and if we are going to change anything we need realists.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Dec 16 - 12:31 PM

"Oh I still keep the faith Jim, it's like a religion really"
You are talking arogant contradictory nonsense
How ano earth can you claim to be a socialist - openly attack the left and espouse an extremist right-wing philosophy?
How is that "keeping the faith"
You would have to be a schizophrenic to do both.
Your views are racist, Islamophobic, totally intolerant of people you describe as disease carrying sexual deviants....
Your veiws are those that filled Nazi gas-chambers - with Socialists and Communists, among others.
Being something involves your actually standing up for what you believe and not taking the opposite stance and attacking what you claim to believe.
Your "socialism" is that of The Nation Socialists - one of hatred of other races, creeds and ideals.
You swing from one reactionary statement to another - armbands for refugees, fortress Britain, all Muslims are totally untrustworthy because of theirt religion, blanket support for a Fascist like Trump, working people are not fit to control their own destiny, Anders Behring Breivik was making points worth listening to...... the list of extremist right-wing causes you have supported - on occasion, even when the right have abandoned them as too extreme (Yellow-star type armbands)
When eve you aver disagreed with Keith and Teribus - two of the most persistent extremist right-wingers on this forum.
Your hatefully persistent attacks on homosexuality -even when the world has moved on from this oppressively harmful practice, is beyond belief - almost as beyond belief as your claim to be a Socialist.
You are not even consistent or honest about your statements
You attack the left, get huffy for being accused of doing so, then do it all over again, claiming you don't have to be of the left to be a socialist (left is a defining feature of socialism - go buy a dictionary)
Your cavalier use of the term "liberal" to express a hatred for all progressive ideas and ideals, sums your somewhat unstable approach to politics absolutely - you appear to exist on a different planet from the rest os us - The Planet Strange
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Dec 16 - 03:06 PM

Ake
I've asked this before and got no answer
You constantly refer in abusive terms to 'The Benefit Culture'
You have put down the problems of the National Health Service and being abused by the users of that service.
You are disparaging of people's "rights"
You oppose the ownership and control of the means of production on the basis that we are not ready for it.
You recently say that "socialist, of whom I am one, are hardly ever right" and "conservatives see the world as it is"
As all of these more or less cover the aspirations of Socialism, which particular parts of socialism do you actually support?
I think the last time I asked this, you responded on the basis that you wouldn't respond to insults (though none were made)
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: akenaton
Date: 03 Dec 16 - 03:15 PM

A whole ream of misrepresentation and outright lies Jim, breath taking in their viciousness.

I have always stated that I am a social conservative, most real socialist that I have encountered have been so.
I am strongly opposed to the capitalist economic system which in my opinion must be scrapped and replaced by something sustainable.
I think our expectations have been pumped up by the system without providing the means to make these expectations achievable.

I stand up for change in the political and economic system, not the "liberal neverland" inhabited by you and your chums. Your ideology is actually an inhibitor to real change.

I disagree quite strongly with many political views expounded by K and T, but I have the quality that you do not seem to possess, in being able to process other views and amend my own where I think it necessary.

The rest of your post is simply a disgusting rant which I wont dignify with a response.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Dec 16 - 03:24 PM

I must say, you must have bloody big balls to be able to post that utter rubbish. 😂😂😂

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: akenaton
Date: 03 Dec 16 - 03:44 PM

As Teribus has amply proved, you have "no balls at all".

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Dec 16 - 04:04 PM

"Kinnock led the Labour Party to a surprise fourth consecutive defeat in the 1992 general election, despite the party being ahead in most opinion polls, after which he resigned as leader and from the House of Commons. Three years later he became a European Commissioner. He went on to become the Vice-President of the European Commission under Romano Prodi from 1999 to 2004. Until the summer of 2009, he was also the Chairman of the British Council and the President of Cardiff University."
      definitely getting his snout in to the european gravy train, in my opinion he is a disgrace and a traitor.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Dec 16 - 04:55 AM

"A whole ream of misrepresentation and outright lies Jim, breath taking in their viciousness."
Then you put them up and I'll knock them down Ake - which of the things I have describe have you not subscribed to?
"I have always stated"
What you have stated is irrelevant if it does not coincide with what you actually say.
"I am strongly opposed to the capitalist economic system"
Yet yor arguments echoe those of the most right wing supporters of the system A reminder
"conservatives see the world as it is"
"socialist, of whom I am one, are hardly ever right."
Straight out of the Norman Tebbit Handbook of Class Politics
I ask again, what's your opinion on the public ownership of the means of production and distribution?
Let's see if you anser this time and is your answer ties up with other statements you have made on the subject.
Have you not used the term 'benefit culture"?
Have you not described the problems the Health Service is undergoing as being down to misuse by patients?
Did you not say that mass murderer Breivik had something to say worth listening to?
If nothing else, your continuing contempt for Liberalism puts you on the extreme right - yoiu are almost as obsessive on this as your hatred for homosexuality
These are all signs of your extreme political position and however you describe yourself, it's what you are.
You are like the old joke about the American who tried to avoid conscription by faking his eye test - until a young nurse in a very short skirt walked into the examination room and bent over the filing cabinet.
The examining doctor said, your eye test may be telling me one thing, but your prick's pointing strait to West Point
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: akenaton
Date: 04 Dec 16 - 05:15 AM

"The reason of course is that conservatives see the world as it is and actually believe what they espouse, we on the other hand see the world as we would like it to be and only a tiny minority understand or truly believe in our stated views."

I Jim, am one of that tiny minority.....you as far as I can see are definitely not.
You strike me as a "committed liberal" believing exactly what the establishment want and expect you to believe.

Someone above, it may have been you, mentioned "caricature" and I suppose that just about covers it really.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: akenaton
Date: 04 Dec 16 - 05:22 AM

Another thing Jim, I could go through your whole list of complaints and explain my meaning and my stance, but I don't write here for you alone. I expect a certain degree of comprehension from the membership of this illustrious forum.....a degree which you either do not possess or which you prefer not to use?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Dec 16 - 05:50 AM

Your standpoint on almost everything you "write here about" (pompous sod) is ludicrously incomprehensible. You live in your own unprickable little bubble.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Dec 16 - 05:58 AM

You fail to answer my questions and you fail to identify the lies you claim I have told
The game's up Ake
"Incomprehensive" to self-inflicted illiterates, maybe
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: akenaton
Date: 04 Dec 16 - 10:41 AM

OK Jim, how about everything in the post "Jim Carroll 3 Dec 16...12:31 pm".......I have identified them you prove they are true.

Or even that I actually wrote them.   None of your crooked quotes either, if you please.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Dec 16 - 10:44 AM

ludicrously incomprehensible.

I have never had any problem comprehending Ake.
Perhaps the deficiency is with you?

"Incomprehensive" to self-inflicted illiterates, maybe

I think you have it Jim.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Dec 16 - 10:47 AM

If so, it's a deficiency I shall treasure.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Dec 16 - 10:53 AM

You are seriously suggesting that you said none of those things?
Jim Carroll