BS: Cat Forsees Death?

Subject: RE: BS: Cat Forsees Death?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 28 Jul 07 - 10:44 PM

Right - none of this is supernatural. It's all perception. The emissions are there, we just aren't at the right wavelengths to pick them up. That's one of the reasons we domesticated dogs in the first place - early warning of intruders. Why not early warning of anything else?

Subject: RE: BS: Cat Forsees Death?
From: katlaughing
Date: 28 Jul 07 - 11:56 PM

Do we have to over-analyse everything to death? No pun intended. The cat is performing a service, perhaps through smell, perhaps through a myriad of other perceptions unknown to us. Regardless, it is a wonderful thing, imo.

Subject: RE: BS: Cat Forsees Death?
From: SharonA
Date: 29 Jul 07 - 02:13 AM

"Do we have to over-analyse everything to death?:

YES !!!!!

LOL! Sorry, but some of us like to open up the back of the clock to see what makes it tick. That doesn't mean we don't appreciate life's mysteries; it's just that the lack of understanding of those mysteries gives us more consternation than delight.

As for the Oscar mystery, I think there may be other (or, at least, more) factors at work here than the emission of odors by the dying body. For instance, many of us cat lovers have observed the phenomenon that a cat will, when entering a room full of guests, seem to be most attracted to the person who likes cats least. Why? Not because the cat wishes to annoy the cat "hater", but because he/she is least likely to annoy the cat (by picking it up, petting it in a way it doesn't care for, or otherwise disturbing its routine) -- the cat "hater's" space is the calmest spot in an agitating environment. By the same token, when Oscar makes the rounds of his nursing-home environment, I believe that he would spend the most time curled up on the bed of the patient who was least likely to disturb his rest: the patient who was moving around the least because he/she was near death.

On the other hand, perhaps the cat curls up on the beds of several different patients indiscriminately; perhaps the nursing home staff's perception that he spends more time with near-death patients is simply a bit of Monday-morning quarterbacking??? They've been right 25 times, but I wonder how many times they've called up relatives of a patient Oscar has curled up with, to alert them to an impending demise, only to have the patient live for several more weeks or months... or years?

Subject: RE: BS: Cat Forsees Death?
From: SharonA
Date: 29 Jul 07 - 02:33 AM

Also, let's not forget that the cat's home isn't the entire nursing facility. According to this article, "Oscar's sole domain is the locked dementia ward" of the center, "home to 41 patients in the final stages of Alzheimer's, Parkinson's, a stroke, and other mentally debilitating diseases." That's final stages, folks, so the probability that any bed Oscar curls up on might be someone's deathbed is pretty high to begin with.

Subject: RE: BS: Cat Forsees Death?
From: JennyO
Date: 29 Jul 07 - 04:27 AM

Yes Sharon, but the article said that Oscar doesn't seem to be a naturally affectionate cat with the patients, ignoring them most of the time - until they are about to die. It sounds like he doesn't curl up on beds as a matter of course - only on the beds of dying patients.

I've noticed cats often head for the non-cat-people too, but I doubt whether it is because they are "the calmest spot in an agitating environment". Nothing very calm about getting turfed off the lap of a non-cat-person. That's what is likely to happen to Onyx if she tries to climb on John's lap. Doesn't stop her from trying though.

As many of us have said here, our animals often seem a lot more affectionate when we are sick or distressed in some way. I know when I am sick or distressed, my state of mind is anything but calm.

I think cats, like many animals, have a more highly developed sensitivity to all kinds of subtle cues - something that we humans probably used to have but have mostly lost - some more than others. In that way, I consider it to be a gift. Animals are well known for sensing changes in their environment, such as the weather, because it has always been necessary to their survival. You could even argue that empathy is necessary to the survival of the species. Oscar may well regard the people in his world as his own species because it is his whole world.

Subject: RE: BS: Cat Forsees Death?
From: SharonA
Date: 29 Jul 07 - 05:21 AM

"Yes Sharon, but the article said that Oscar doesn't seem to be a naturally affectionate cat with the patients, ignoring them most of the time - until they are about to die. It sounds like he doesn't curl up on beds as a matter of course - only on the beds of dying patients."

Well, yeah, that was my theory: that the cat isn't necessarily being affectionate by curling up on the dying patient's bed, just finding a warm bed to sleep on where he's not going to be disturbed by people trying to be affectionate with him, grabbing him, petting him roughly, etc.
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"I've noticed cats often head for the non-cat-people too, but I doubt whether it is because they are 'the calmest spot in an agitating environment'. "

That one isn't my theory; I've read that in several books and magazine articles about cats.
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"...our animals often seem a lot more affectionate when we are sick or distressed in some way."

Often, perhaps, but not always -- I've had a bad cold these last couple of weeks, and every time I cough when my cat is in the room, she runs out of the room! LOL
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"I think cats, like many animals, have a more highly developed sensitivity to all kinds of subtle cues..."

Undoubtedly they do. I'm just not ready to assume that that's what is happening with Oscar. The fact that he lives in the "final stages" ward makes the phenomenon look a lot like happenstance to me. Sorry to be so cynical, but what smells to me is this story -- I'm catching a whiff of a news staff so desperate to find a local human interest story and a nursing-home staff so desperate to get their 15 minutes of fame that they've all blown one cat's sleeping habits WAYYYYYYY out of proportion!

Subject: RE: BS: Cat Foresees Death?
From: SharonA
Date: 29 Jul 07 - 07:46 AM

Here is the full text of the article in the New England Journal of Medicine that started all this hub-bub. I had expected to find an analytical treatment of the subject, and was astounded to see that it's written as a narrative -- even more of a human-interest treatment than the news articles give it! I didn't know that the NEJM published anything except descriptions of medical studies and patient histories.

In the NEJM article, the author (Dr. David M. Dosa) says dramatically, "No one dies on the third floor unless Oscar pays a visit and stays awhile." Yet in the BBC article to which GUEST Sapper linked (above), Dosa says, "He doesn't make many mistakes" [my emphasis]... so Dosa admits that Oscar has made a few errors. I wish there were an article with a more quantitative description of when, and under what circumstances, Oscar is right or wrong.

In the NEJM, Dosa says Oscar entered one room (where the patient's daughter was keeping a vigil), jumped onto the bed, jumped off again and left. Then he entered a room where the patient was alone -- this is where he curled up and stayed until the patient died. Was he simply choosing a room without a visitor in it? When the patient's family arrived for the death watch, did Oscar stay there out of sheer stubbornness and refusal to be moved once he'd chosen his spot? Did he leave after the death because he knew the nurses' routine of removing the body and the bedclothes was about to ensue? Having observed cats' habits all my life, it wouldn't surprise me if all of that were the case. Cats are highly motivated to seek their own comfort. It has not been my experience that they set out upon any course of action to comfort humans (although they're quick to learn that, if they want attention, a sad human is likely to give plenty of it to them).

There are a couple of things that disturb me about the descriptions of this nursing facility. In the NEJM article, Dosa describes a resident: "Moderately disheveled after eating her lunch, half of which she now wears on her shirt, Mrs. P. is taking one of her many aimless strolls to nowhere." I realize that it may be challenging for the staff to get their patient to wear an adult bib at meals or change stained clothing or sit still long enough for a midday hair-combing, but still Dosa doesn't give the best impression of the conditions there! Also disturbing to me is the description of Oscar's behavior when he is removed from the bed and room of a dying patient at the request of the patient's family: according to the article I linked above, a doctor there says, "He kind of rubs aggressively against the door, paces back and forth, yowls in protest." Why would the staff allow the cat to linger there, wailing and disturbing the patient's loved ones (not to mention the patients in adjoining rooms)? To me, it's unconscionable that they would let the cat do that rather than shut it in a room where its vocalizing would not be intrusive.

But the most disturbing thing to me is that the staff would wait for a signal from a cat before calling a dying patient's family to come in for their final visit. Is the staff so inexperienced or inept that they can't tell when a terminally ill patient has only a short time left to live? Is this what health care in America is coming to????

Subject: RE: BS: Cat Forsees Death?
From: JennyO
Date: 29 Jul 07 - 11:48 AM

Hub-bub, Sharon? I thought it was a discussion of a news article that raises some interesting ideas.

BTW if I coughed suddenly, my cat would probably run out of the room too. Loud noises will do that. Nothing to do with what I was talking about. I know what I've experienced with my cats. Although you apparently have a cat, from your last two posts it comes across to me that you don't like them very much. If you think they are so self-serving, why do you have one?

From the article you linked to (which I had read earlier):

Within a half hour the family starts to arrive. Chairs are brought into the room, where the relatives begin their vigil. The priest is called to deliver last rites. And still, Oscar has not budged, instead purring and gently nuzzling Mrs. K. ............... Thirty minutes later, Mrs. K. takes her last earthly breath. With this, Oscar sits up, looks around, then departs the room so quietly that the grieving family barely notices.

So you really think he wouldn't settle in a room with one visitor, yet with a lot of people coming in and moving chairs around, he insisted on staying out of "stubbornness"? Your assumptions sound like more of a stretch than what these people, including doctors and nurses, have observed and believe is true. Your criticisms of the nursing home seem rather unfair too, based on the story you read and nothing more.

Are you really that much of a cynic, or are you enjoying being "devil's advocate"?

Subject: RE: BS: Cat Forsees Death?
From: katlaughing
Date: 29 Jul 07 - 11:54 AM

Well said, JennyO, thanks.

Subject: RE: BS: Cat Forsees Death?
From: Donuel
Date: 29 Jul 07 - 12:03 PM

Last month the "reverse" happened.

My neighbor who is a CIA translator and widowed for 6 years since her husband of the same occupation passed away, found her 14 year old cat "Spider" had died.

She said it curled up on her husband's pillow and went to 'sleep' -which it had nver ever done before.

Subject: RE: BS: Cat Forsees Death?
From: SharonA
Date: 29 Jul 07 - 12:35 PM

Geez, Jenny, lighten up. I'm not an ogre. I love cats! And I like them very much, too. Some people call me a cat lady. If it were possible, I would adopt all the homeless cats everywhere.

I have one because one is all I can afford right now, and because I've worked very hard with her for four years to gain her trust and acceptance and to turn her from rescued feral kitten into happy housepet.

Yes, I do consider cats to be self-serving. It amuses me to observe their behavior. It pleases me when they deign to acknowledge my existence!

Yes, I am something of a cynic AND I enjoy playing devil's advocate... AND I'm analytical. Yes, I draw conclusions based on the information available (doesn't everybody?), which in this case is what I've read. If contradictory info becomes available, I'll take it into consideration and form conclusions from the whole.

Also, I tend to write in a more formal tone than I use when speaking. Sorry if it all seems off-putting. Hope to meet you and Kat at a Gather or Getaway someday, so you can judge for yourselves whether I'm all that bad! Or ask Max or Pene Azul; they've met me and I haven't bitten either of them. Or ask Marymac or Bert; they have known me for years and as far as I know, they like me! :^)

Sharon

Subject: RE: BS: Cat Forsees Death?
From: Rusty Dobro
Date: 29 Jul 07 - 12:47 PM

Wouldsn't Oscar be more useful OUTSIDE the facility? Give him a roving commission to wander round the streets until he attaches himself to an passer-by who until then thought he had a slight head-ache or mild indigestion. Result: passer-by has time to put his affairs in order, say his goodbyes, have wild unprotected sex, whatever, while Oscar builds a thriving private practice and can put the kittens through college.

Meanwhile the elderly patients back on the ward can slide into oblivion untroubled by newscrews and those pesky relatives who've ignored them for the past 40 years.

There's potential for a joke along the lines of 'I was feline good until that cat came in!' but I can't be bothered to think about it. Anyway, haven't vultures been performing a similar trick for years?

Subject: RE: BS: Cat Forsees Death?
From: SharonA
Date: 29 Jul 07 - 12:51 PM

Oh, yes, and by "hub-bub" I did not mean this discussion thread specifically; I meant allthe discussions, articles, TV news reports, etc., etc. that have all sprung up worldwide from the article in the New England Journal of Medicine.

Subject: RE: BS: Cat Forsees Death?
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 29 Jul 07 - 05:59 PM

Vultures usually have the good grace to wait until the body has ceased moving...

I like vultures.

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: Cat Forsees Death?
From: katlaughing
Date: 29 Jul 07 - 07:03 PM

Sharon, didn't you used to play on Mudcat radio sometimes? And, how IS MaryMaC? I miss those days!!

Subject: RE: BS: Cat Forsees Death?
From: SharonA
Date: 29 Jul 07 - 07:30 PM

Hi, Kat! Yes, indeed, I did appear on Mudcat Radio three or four times at the tail end of its existence. Marymac had been been trying to convince me to become a Mudcat member and sing on the program for a l-o-n-n-g-g-g time before I was finally convinced to give it a go... just in time to see Mudcat Radio's demise. :^(

According to this old thread about my first Mudcat Radio appearance, you heard it!

Marymac is just fine! She lives a bit farther away now, but I see her several times a year when she comes into Philly for an open mic event we both like to attend. Next time she and I run into each other, I'll pass along your good thoughts!

Subject: RE: BS: Cat Forsees Death?
From: Ebbie
Date: 30 Jul 07 - 01:26 AM

As to curling up on the warm bed next to a near-death person, you may have noticed that an expiring person's body is not as warm as a healthy person's. It would seem that if he were only interested in his comfort the cat would seek out another spot.

Subject: RE: BS: Cat Forsees Death?
From: GUEST,Sheerluck Holmes
Date: 30 Jul 07 - 05:01 AM

Staff are bumping off patients. Cat likes the smell of whatever it is they are giving them.

Subject: RE: BS: Cat Forsees Death?
From: katlaughing
Date: 30 Jul 07 - 10:02 AM

Sharon, thanks for the memory jog. I thought I remembered you from the Radio. Didn't you play concertina, too? Please tell MaryMac a lot of us miss her and to get herself on in here!*smile*

Subject: RE: BS: Cat Forsees Death?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 30 Jul 07 - 11:34 AM

Odd that the cat's name is "Oscar."

That's the same name of a cat that was rescued from the sinking of the German battleship Bismark in World War 2. The crew of the British destroyer Cossack that rescued him was sunk in turn by a German submarine three weeks later. Oscar again surived and was adopted by the crew of the British aircraft carrier Ark Royal. It too was torpedoed and sunk, the cat rescued again but this time sent ashore to live out his years in a place called "The Home for Sailors" at Belfast. I wonder if he curled up alongside dying sailors there.

Maybe "Oscar" came back!

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Cat Forsees Death?
From: SharonA
Date: 30 Jul 07 - 02:11 PM

Remember what I said about folks wanting those 15 minutes of fame? Part of that phenomenon is the copycat phase, and it has begun (or, in this case, copydog):

Scamp, the Dog of Death

Subject: RE: BS: Cat Forsees Death?
From: cookster
Date: 30 Jul 07 - 10:31 PM

That is just weird!!

Subject: RE: BS: Cat Forsees Death?
From: Ebbie
Date: 31 Jul 07 - 12:34 AM

'Copycat' is not necessarily the phenomenon. It is entirely possible that some people read the previous story and said, Hey, we've got the same thing here. People just don't know about it. Let's tell them.

Not necessarily less - or more - believable.