BS: Cleaning blackened saucepans

Subject: RE: BS: Cleaning blackened saucepans
From: Bee
Date: 14 Feb 08 - 09:39 PM

Mr. red, yer killin' me!

Richard, you cleaned up that pot yet?

Subject: RE: BS: Cleaning blackened saucepans
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 15 Feb 08 - 01:05 AM

Better still, has he cleaned up his act yet?

:-P

Subject: RE: BS: Cleaning blackened saucepans
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 15 Feb 08 - 02:50 AM

I can't believe all the interest on this!

I'm going to get some brillo pads and maybe some of the advised potions when I go shopping at the weekend.

Subject: RE: BS: Cleaning blackened saucepans
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 15 Feb 08 - 06:08 AM

I get the distinct impression that disavowals made by Richard in his initial post were just a smokescreen.

He's obviously been READING UP on things.

John

Subject: RE: BS: Cleaning blackened saucepans
From: GUEST,gillegan
Date: 15 Feb 08 - 06:15 AM

I've been following this thread carefully in the hope of finding a cure for my blackened aluminium pot (c. 1950 or so) which (like Richard's)most definately is not any kind of deposit that can be scraped off. It is a stain that resulted from boiling water with a few drops of olive oil in it a couple of nights ago with a plan to make pasta. The water was turned off and left for the night and by morning the pot was black up to the water line. Despite doing first year introductory chemistry last year, I don't understand the carbon/aluminium reaction (oxidisation?) so if anyone is up to explaining it (along with what de-staining method to use), I'd be very interested. We are new to this area (Northern Territory, Australia) and I'm wondering if the high chlorine or calcium levels play a part as well. Speaking of which, I'm used to dealing with kettles going black, but here they go white!!!! Any ideas?

Subject: RE: BS: Cleaning blackened saucepans
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 15 Feb 08 - 07:40 AM

I gave up being a domestic god years ago. Jacqui, with whom I later settled down and who died in 2003, had "trained" me to clean her stainless steel sink after we did the washing up.

Well, thre was a hiatus in our reltionship, and one of the girls I was then seeing, Nikki, was a physiotherapy student who lived in a student block attached to the teaching hospital. All students in that wing were women.

So, one weekend, I arrived, and she was making a ratatouille, and we got sort of distracted not having seen each other for a fortnight.

After that the ratatouille which was still cooking in the shared kitchen in that floor of the block was not quite so nice, and it took a bit of removing from the saucepan.

After which I cleaned the stainless steeel sink as Jacqui had "trained" me. I heard a snigger at the door, and there was one of my girlfriend's female friends with a psychology textbook in her hand, and she asked "Does he wash his hands a lot too?"

Subject: RE: BS: Cleaning blackened saucepans
From: Bee
Date: 15 Feb 08 - 08:28 AM

A similar distraction, once , back when I was a young thing, caused me to discover that the melting point of aluminum is 'simmer'.

Subject: RE: BS: Cleaning blackened saucepans
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 15 Feb 08 - 10:24 AM

I like the title of one of those books listed in JiK's article: How to Iron Your Own Damn Shirt

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Cleaning blackened saucepans
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 15 Feb 08 - 12:23 PM

I made some progress at lunchtime with "Cillit Bang" and nylon scourers.

Still going to get some brillo pads and magic bullets tomorrow!

Subject: RE: BS: Cleaning blackened saucepans
From: pdq
Date: 15 Feb 08 - 12:45 PM

Anything harder than plastic (as nylon) scrub pads will make small scratches that will fill soon after you start using the pans.

In the US, most modern ovens have a self-cleaning setting. It keeps the oven at maximum temperature for an hour or more, burning all the crud off the sides, bottom and grills,

Try removing all plastic or wooden handles. Place a few pans in the oven and run the "self-clean" cycle. It is hard to believe that any will melt. If so, they aren't good for much so you will not have a difficult decision concerning what to do with them.

Subject: RE: BS: Cleaning blackened saucepans
From: wysiwyg
Date: 15 Feb 08 - 01:17 PM

If you have a LOT of pots and pans to recondition-- as you might if you were running a thrift shop-- then a machine grinder from the auto shop can be a very handy tool. (So can a sanding pad on a drill.) But for the home reconditioner, salt is a very good abrasive and it takes time to use, so that one gets to mull over all one's indiscretions and pot-misuses, or one's happy memories of the meals a relative produced out of the poor old pot... or the actual extent of the need to have clean-looking pots at all.

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: Cleaning blackened saucepans
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 15 Feb 08 - 01:47 PM

From Martha Stewart Living:

The facts about pots and pans, however, tell a different story. Current studies have all but exonerated aluminum cookware from any connection to Alzheimer's. Most have an anodized surface that reduces the amount of metal seeping into food.

Don't grind the pans. You'll introduce rough surfaces to more staining, introduce metal particles into your air, and remove the anodized surface the quote speaks of.

Healthy Cookware. This article rates types of pots and pans. Do yourself a favor and save the energy--buy a good, new, healthy set of pans.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Cleaning blackened saucepans
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 15 Feb 08 - 03:55 PM

The question From: GUEST,gillegan 15 Feb 08 - 06:15 AM raises the issue of there being two separate and distinct kinds of discoloration of aluminum pots.

The original description, of heavy black deposits in the bottom of the pot, suggests the "curing on" of residual oils and vegetable residues over a long period of use. Especially with hand washing, it's almost impossible to get all the surface oils removed at each washing. When the pot is used the next time, the residual organic scum on the surface is hardened, and eventually is converted to what amounts to a layer of nearly pure carbon. This is the same process intentionally used to cure cast iron cookware; but the carbon is "chemically compatible" with iron and can "bond" with the cast iron, while it's essentially just a layer on the surface for aluminum. (It may be difficult to tell that there's a difference when you're trying to get it off.)

"Cooked on carbon" is virtually inert to most chemical cleaning agents that can be safely used on aluminum, and removal is best done, if necessary, by abrasive methods. Martha Stewart can buy a new set of pots when they get dirty. You'll probably prefer to go ahead and use some grit, especially if "sentimental values" are involved.

The description by gillegan, of discoloration that appears from just leaving water standing in the pot overnight is more likely from chemicals in the water, reacting with or depositing on the aluminum surface. Discoloration of this kind can usually be removed most readily – if at all – using vinegar (about 1 tbsp per qt of water) or cream of tartar (a couple of tsp per qt) and heating. Other "chemicals" such as bicarbonate of soda etc may have similar effect, and there are lots of things one can try.

Quite likely, what we assume is cooked on carbon in Richard's case may be accompanied by some "chemical discoloring" due to long use with even the purest of common water supplies, so a combination of methods may be needed there, although abrasive attack sufficient to remove the carbon likely will get most of whatever else is present.

In gillegan's case the very rapid discoloration (overnight? - or was it really a couple of nights?) suggests a level of contamination in the water supply that would be likely to be well known by those in any area where it occurs, and local advice would likely turn up recommendations from those who've found what works with the local water. The vinegar or tartar treatment, of those commonly effective elsewhere, is probably most likely to work, but may not be effective for "peculiar local conditions."

AUS has a well-developed (on paper) water quality program¹ that is apparently aggressively implemented at least in some areas but local conditions may slip out of the norm. Less stringent standards are applied to "small systems" with up to about 1,000 users, and there appears to be significant use of "bore water" and rainfall catchment sources that may be contrived, constructed, and maintained by individual users. There are apparently some local areas where fairly high "trace materials" – especially minerals – may be present in locally accessed water; but I found no immediately accessible info on widespread areas where local water might be of particularly low/variant quality.

Some areas do appear to provide separate "drinking water" supplies with a second and independent "lawn and laundry water" supply. In an area where this is done, using only the "drinking water" supply for cooking would be advisable. There appear to be areas where local "point of dispensing" filtration is recommended, but they're not identified in what I found.

If there is significant concern about the water in the new location being "different" than what you're used to, the Water Made Clear: A consumer guide to accompany the Australian Drinking Water Guidelines 2004 may give you clues as to who to ask. (See the "Further Information section near the end.) The local water provider quite likely can supply a recent "analysis" of what they're giving you, if that's applicable. If you're on an "independent supply" you should be able to identify an appropriate testing agency to find out what you're using, and periodic retesting would probably be a good idea.

¹ National Water Quality Management Strategy: This site identifies some rather large "methods" documents that describe "how it's supposed to be done," but give little detail about specific water sources and common inclusions. A local supplier is more likely to have the information you really want; but this document may give you some clues on how to contact the right people.

John

Subject: RE: BS: Cleaning blackened saucepans
From: Bee
Date: 15 Feb 08 - 06:34 PM

When I was a young thing, relatively ignorant about various sorts of kitchen chemistry, I inadvertently invented am indestructible polymer.

The pot's long gone, but I'm curious about what, if anything, might have solved the problem.

I'd gotten several pieces of cheap unseasoned cast iron cookware, and successfully seasoned the shallow frypans. There was a dutch oven type pot, however, and here my problem began. The pot being quite deep, it needed quite a bit of (likely canola) cooking oil to coat the interior. I stuck it in the oven on low heat, as I'd done the others, and unfortunately forgot about it for several hours. The oil, once hot, seems to have run down the sides of the pot, leaving a bit more than a quarter inch of oil in the bottom. This oil had gelled into a kind of hard transparent yellowish rubber. It could be dented but not removed with a sharp instrument. It was tougher than anything I've ever seen in a cookpot, for sure.

I soaked the pot. I boiled water in it. I boiled detergent and water in it. I boiled vinegar in it. I can't remember everything I tried, but I had no success at all in even reducing the glossy surfce of the stuff. The pot was a write off.

Subject: RE: BS: Cleaning blackened saucepans
From: Rumncoke
Date: 15 Feb 08 - 06:42 PM

Don't use hot solutions of washing soda, or any alkaline substance, in aluminium pans - they will, in the worst case develop holes, or if less affected, the surface will become roughened.

Subject: RE: BS: Cleaning blackened saucepans
From: Rowan
Date: 15 Feb 08 - 08:54 PM

We are new to this area (Northern Territory, Australia) and I'm wondering if the high chlorine or calcium levels play a part as well. Speaking of which, I'm used to dealing with kettles going black, but here they go white!!!! Any ideas?

JiK has done it again with the serious info but, in Oz, you can buy from most supermarkets a product named "CLR" (for Calcium, Lime & Rust) which is designed to remove the scale that deposits the preciptated magnesium and calcium salts disssolved in the bore water intil it's boiled.

Bee, the gunge in the bottom of your camp oven is polymerised oil and is usually removed mechanically. When 'proving' cast iron cookware a thin film of oil is sufficient.

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: BS: Cleaning blackened saucepans
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 16 Feb 08 - 02:08 AM

Bee -

The problem with removing your indestructible polymer is in the "I boiled it ..."

Plain cast iron could quite safely be tossed on the coals of a good charcoal (or even coal) bed and brought to at least a dull red glow, which should effectively pyrolize (burn off) anything with an organic origin. You stopped at around 200F, and needed 200C (550F) or a little more. Cracking a cast iron piece by too rapid quenching (e.g. dumping a red hot piece into a bucket of water?) could be a possibility, but simple still-air cooling has never caused a problem with any that I've cleaned this way.

(Some, but possibly not all, range ovens can reach temperatures high enough to be effective. Most US ranges indicate 500F as a maximum setting, which should be sufficient; but some may not get quite to the maximum that's on the knob.)

At boiling temperature you were probably just increasing the degree of polymerization and making the stuff tougher, regardless of what "additives" you tried.

Having seen examples very similar to the material described, I think it may have been too "gummy" for very effective abrasive or scrapin' 'n scratchin' methods, and I can understand why you elected the "quicker solution" and discarded it. As the gunk is fairly insoluble, the only thing reasonable to try might have been to increase the temp enough (350F - 400F?) to make the gunk hard enough to crack before going to the wire brush, or going to the above indicated 200C or higher to just burn it off.

John

Subject: RE: BS: Cleaning blackened saucepans
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 16 Feb 08 - 03:56 AM

This is starting to sound like the discussion we had of re-kosherisation on the glatt chicken thread... and indeed almost a justification of the rather derided point of view of Rabbi-Sol (or was it a guest rabbi?) about heating kitchen items to red-heat.

Subject: RE: BS: Cleaning blackened saucepans
From: danensis
Date: 16 Feb 08 - 10:44 AM

I always thought "Home on the Range" was about the great outdoors.

John

Subject: RE: BS: Cleaning blackened saucepans
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 17 Feb 08 - 06:17 AM

Well, I have some of those things I was told to mix into a paste...

The two worst pans actually yielded to Cillit Bang overnight and a light scrape with a very blunt knife, then scotchbrite pads. Those were deposits.

THere are a couple of others that are discoloured but seem to ahve no deposits. I'll try teh pastes in them.

I also have an old Sunbeam powered frying pan - glorious historic artefact - but while the inside was fair the outside was patchy black. It is currently soaking in a bucket of a household cleaner with ammonia (but you can't immerse the electrical controls or connections).

Also running dishwasher loads of old partial dinner and tea services. All bar one is incomplete - but they were good china in their day...

I know I can't regularly run them in dishwasher or they will bleach, but one run should be OK.

Subject: RE: BS: Cleaning blackened saucepans
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 17 Feb 08 - 11:51 AM

They'll etch, they'll do all sorts of not-good things. Don't run good stuff in there if it is antique, etc. Or at least don't use the caustic commerical soap.

You'd be surprised how many places want the old incomplete sets to turn around and sell to those who are trying to complete their own sets. If you're not using all of these things don't just chuck them in a garage sale, surf the web and find some of the services that match up china (many of them also do silver and flatware).

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Cleaning blackened saucepans
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 17 Feb 08 - 03:19 PM

That's interesting SRS - I have some pretty tasty cutlery sets with many but not quite all of the sets. Bone handles - so they are NOT going in the dishwasher.

Then there are my mother's furs and my father's ivory. How the hell do I sell those these days without getting painted red from head to toe?

Subject: RE: BS: Cleaning blackened saucepans
From: Rowan
Date: 17 Feb 08 - 11:04 PM

Also running dishwasher loads of old partial dinner and tea services. All bar one is incomplete - but they were good china in their day...
I know I can't regularly run them in dishwasher or they will bleach, but one run should be OK.

If the decoration on the china includes "gold" or "silver" colours (usually lines around other parts of the decoration, dishwashers aren't a good idea even once.

Apart from the usual caveat concerning the detergents used in dishwashers there's the elevated temperatures used in most. Bone handles are best kept out of hot water, even when washing up the old fashioned way and older china services were produced in anticipation of being washed in water no hotter than your hands could handle, using soap that was unsophisticated.

The only dishwashers I use rely on two hands and some persuasion but I recall seeing the after effects of dishwashers on aluminium surfaces; something in the detergent and/or temperature caused many aluminium surfaces to darken; it may have been the use of dishwashers and incautious selection of detergents & temperatures that caused the darkening that has been described above. It seems to me that the almost universal use of dishwashers that has lead to the replacement of most metals in cookware (copper, brass, aluminium, cast iron and ordinary steel) with stainless steel.

Ditto for perfectly good carbon steel knives, especially ones with timber handles; dishwashers don't do any part of them a lot of good whereas washing them by hand, one at a time seems to prolong their sharpness and general useability. But then, I'm known as a bit of a Luddite.

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: BS: Cleaning blackened saucepans
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 18 Feb 08 - 03:33 AM

My mother had a dishwasher that we insisted she buy when she moved to her bungalow in 1993. I don't think it's ever been used. So it didn't cause any blackening.

Subject: RE: BS: Cleaning blackened saucepans
From: GUEST,Dazbo at work
Date: 18 Feb 08 - 03:47 AM

When I worked in a brewery there was plenty of caustic soda solution used for cleaning. Many of the workers used to bring their oven furnitureetc in to soak in the tanks to clean them. It was always funny when the dimmer employees (or those who hadn't been warned off) put aluminium into the solution and when the came to retrieve their items they'd dissolved away to nothing.

Subject: RE: BS: Cleaning blackened saucepans
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 18 Feb 08 - 08:11 AM

Well Rowan,

I was going to castr castigate JiK for being such an expert on Aussie Water and the stains they leave, without knowing about CLR, but I can now rest safe in my dotage thanks to you. I will mail the torch to you... :-)