BS: Seeking Information About Black Britons

Subject: RE: BS: Seeking Information About Black Britons
From: Azizi
Date: 07 Jul 09 - 08:27 PM

meself, the concept of "giving back to the community" is a recurring meme among African Americans. I'm not surprised that this idea is also found among Black Britons.

This idea is more that the individual owes something to the collective which gave her/her birth and nurtured and supported her/him. The concept of "raising (or advancing) the race is also an integral part of this "giving something back to the community" meme. Embedded in this idea is the view that you don't get to be a success on your own and that you should reach back and help others achieve success.

One very familiar saying among African Americans that reflects this viewpoint that the collective is responsible-in part-for the success of a member of that collective-is that a successful person stands on the shoulders of other people. Another familiar saying that reflects the expectation that successful people are supposed to look out for others in their group, is "Each one, teach one".

The reader comments to that Naomi Campbell post provide some clues as how they felt that she could give back to the Black community-by being a good role model to other Black females.

Unfortunately, it appears from those reader comments that they didn't feel that Ms. Campbell is [or was] a good role model.

Subject: RE: BS: Seeking Information About Black Britons
From: Azizi
Date: 07 Jul 09 - 08:30 PM

Ugh! Let me correct one sentence in my last post:

This idea is more than the belief that an individual owes something to the collective community which gave her/her birth and nurtured and supported her/him.

Subject: RE: BS: Seeking Information About Black Britons
From: Jack Campin
Date: 07 Jul 09 - 08:58 PM

It isn't necessarily as positive as that. This "community" language is often patronizingly racist. Whenever some ethnic minority gets uppity, the state issues an appeal for "youth" to defer to "community leaders". The idea seems to be that non-white residents in the UK are (or ought to be) subject to some sort of social organization like that of British colonial Africa or India, where local indigenous rulers did the British administration's dirty work for it by clapping unruly elements in irons, flogging them as necessary and handing them over to the colonial police. In recent years, Muslim clerics in particular have been subject to what amounts to conscription into the secret police.

Nobody ever expects white Britons to have "community leaders" or take orders from them.

Subject: RE: BS: Seeking Information About Black Britons
From: Azizi
Date: 07 Jul 09 - 10:04 PM

Jack, being a positive role model is not the same as being a community leader.

I can't speak about Black British communities, but my sense of African American communities is that individuals aren't expected to "take orders" from persons who they consider to be leaders of their communities. Note the word "they" (to distinguish those persons from individuals that persons in the mainstream society claim are our leaders). Also note the plurals-"communities" and "leaders".

Since I know too little about that subject, I can't address your comment about the role of Muslim clerics in Great Britain (or anywhere else, for that matter) except to say that your comment seems to me to be far too general and quite inflammatory.

I also know too little about White Britons and thus will defer to your   
sense of your own community.

Subject: RE: BS: Seeking Information About Black Britons
From: meself
Date: 08 Jul 09 - 12:41 AM

Azizi - Thanks for your take on those questions. Interesting!

I don't know anything about Naomi Campbell - but sometimes successful people of whatever background feel that their community tried to hold them back rather than give them support. Maybe she feels that way. That's just a thought; I'm not trying to be contentious or negative ...

Subject: RE: BS: Seeking Information About Black Britons
From: Jack Campin
Date: 08 Jul 09 - 05:50 AM

I can't speak about Black British communities, but my sense of African American communities is that individuals aren't expected to "take orders" from persons who they consider to be leaders of their communities.

I didn't imply that the policy was working. By and large it isn't, and the politicians who spout this colonialist crap are mostly ignored (except by opportunists who see being such a "community leader" as a step into politics).

The police have been trying for years to get anyone with any sort of status in British Islam to act as (at best) community police officers and (at worst) informers. (Strathclyde Police's payments-to-informers budget has quadrupled in the last two years, and they've been one of the most aggressive forces in the UK in in exercising political control over Muslims; they aren't saying what sort of "crime" the money's being directed at). Didn't the FBI ever attempt to suborn Black Christian leaders in similar ways?

Subject: RE: BS: Seeking Information About Black Britons
From: Azizi
Date: 08 Jul 09 - 07:37 AM

Jack, you keep asking questions that I know nothing about. Perhaps other people can respond to your question about whether the

But I'm curious why you mentioned Islam in this thread about Black Britons. Are you implying that there is a large a percentage of Muslims within the Black Briton population? i would be surprised to learn that that percentage is as large as the percentage of Christians in the African American population.

It just occurs to me, Jack, that you might be including Pakistanis and people from what Americans have called "The Middle East" in your definition of "Black Britons".

As a reminder, I indicated in my first post to this thread that I am using the American definition of "Black people" which does not include South Asians unless they have some known biological African ancestry.

Of course, you and others are welcome to extend the discussion to other "minority" populations in Great Britain. However, when doing so it would be helpful if you clarify which definition of "Black" you are using.

Subject: RE: BS: Seeking Information About Black Britons
From: Azizi
Date: 08 Jul 09 - 07:46 AM

neself, I know very little about Naomi Campbell besides the fact that she is a model. In fact, since religion has been mentioned :o), I confess that I thought that she was African American.

And meself, I was 'speaking' ideally when I shared the bedrock African American attitude/expectation that the community should support its members and that people from that community who have climbed the ladder of success should reach back and help other community members.

There's no doubt that sometimes-often?-people don't act according to their ideals.

Subject: RE: BS: Seeking Information About Black Britons
From: Azizi
Date: 08 Jul 09 - 08:01 AM

My apologies for another poor cut & paste job.

Here's the complete sentence from my 08 Jul 09 - 07:37 AM post:

Jack, you keep asking questions that I know nothing about. Perhaps other people can respond to your question about whether the "FBI ever attempt to suborn Black Christian leaders in similar ways." as you indicate that they are doing among Muslim populations in Great Britain.

Subject: RE: BS: Seeking Information About Black Britons
From: Rasener
Date: 08 Jul 09 - 08:10 AM

I remember Kenny Lynch who is a black briton singer. I met him and chatted to him in the late 1990's Nice guy. He was at a charity golf match at my then Golf club that i was a member of. He seemed big mates of Henry Cooper who was also there.

He had several hits in the 1960's

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kenny_Lynch

Subject: RE: BS: Seeking Information About Black Britons
From: GUEST,Black belt caterpillar wrestler
Date: 08 Jul 09 - 08:16 AM

Have you come across Alan Bell's "Cape Famine to Dent - a trail of songs"?
He presented it at the Lancaster Maritime festival in, I think, 2007 and he followed a connection between the slave trade and a small black comunity in the North west town of Dent. He had evidence that there are people of black descent there to this day.

Subject: RE: BS: Seeking Information About Black Britons
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Jul 09 - 08:34 AM

Aye - in was for you Azizi. I thought speaking to a number of black people actualy living here would give you more information that books but I can see that a general investigation could provide a better overall background. Whatever happens at least you are taking the trouble to discover for yourself - more than lots of people do - and that a good basis for understanding other people. And eliminating assumptions of course. Now, where can I get a book on learning about academic research...:-)

Good luck and cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: BS: Seeking Information About Black Britons
From: Matthew Edwards
Date: 08 Jul 09 - 12:49 PM

Here's a brief history of black performers in Britain from the V&A Museum website, with some links to more detailed information: Timeline: Black Performance in Britain.

The timeline for the 18th century uses a picture by the artist William Hogarth; in fact the works of Hogarth contain a large number of images of black people in London of that time, but what is strange is that nobody seemed to notice this until David Dabydeen drew attention to it in his 1987 book Hogarth's Blacks.

David Dabydeen is also one of the editors of the recent Oxford Companion to Black British History which is a very useful guide indeed.

Matthew Edwards

Subject: RE: BS: Seeking Information About Black Britons
From: Jack Campin
Date: 08 Jul 09 - 01:35 PM

It just occurs to me, Jack, that you might be including Pakistanis and people from what Americans have called "The Middle East" in your definition of "Black Britons".

No, what I meant was that the state has used this "community leader" tactic against people of both African and Asian descent - the colonial system worked in similar ways in Africa and India, and as I see it, this technique of political control is an import from the colonies into the domestic scene. (Right now, it's mainly used against Muslims; they gave up looking for "community leaders" who could domesticate the Afro-Caribbean population quite a while ago, maybe when Bernie Grant didn't do what they wanted in the aftermath of the Tottenham riots).

One aspect in which the Black experience in the UK is very different from the US is that there was no domestic slave economy - well, you knew that. There was still oppression, but it was colonial oppression in the countries the immigrants came from, conducted the British way. Which was an experience shared with Indians, Pakistanis, Chinese, Arabs and anybody else who got moved around in British imperialism's global chess game with human populations and finished up here. Looking for commonalities with other immigrant minorities is usually more illuminating than looking for specificities.

I just tried googling "community leader riot" expecting most of the hits to relate to the UK. They didn't. I was surprised how far the idea had got.

Subject: RE: BS: Seeking Information About Black Britons
From: GUEST,Black belt caterpillar wrestler
Date: 14 Jul 09 - 08:09 AM

One reason the effect of the "slave trade" was different in the UK and the USA is often overlooked.
The trade was based on a triangular route. UK - Africa - Americas - UK, cargoes of trade goods - slaves - spices etc. As a result comparitavely few slaves ended up in the UK because of this. There were other routes by which African people ended up in the UK.