What is it that makes folk radio a success?

Subject: RE: What is it that makes folk radio a success?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 27 Dec 10 - 10:50 AM

"You mean classical music programmes should include Bert Kamfert?"

That is comparing apples and oranges. Classical has a diverse body of work and a much larger audience compared to folk music you are describing. Bert Kamfert has not led to the loss of any of the masterworks of classical music, and Kamfert did give us "Strangers in the Night" and other songs that people love.

Your model for radio is much different than ours, and if it can sustain as many programs as you claim, then consider yourself very lucky. I truly wish that would work in this country, but it has been shown to limit the audience and lead to elimination of that type of program. Audience here tend to appreciate quality and pay less attention to the pedigree.

I don't think anyone is suggesting "watering down the whiskey", although it is well known that adding water can unlock many flavors in whiskey that were previously unseen by those who drink it neat - but there seems to be a sort of stigma attached to the practice. It is a shame that others dictate how people should enjoy their drink.

Subject: RE: What is it that makes folk radio a success?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Dec 10 - 12:51 PM

"Classical has a diverse body of work"
Highly debatable that it's any more diverse than folk!
"and a much larger audience compared to folk music"
We have lost much of our audience though, IMO, trying to 'please 'em all' I can remember Lloyd claiming that folk had a greater audience than clssical at the height of the revival, and I can believe it.
None of which has anything whatever to do with what you present and how you produce it.
"Your model for radio is much different than ours"
Don't know where you are, or what you think my music is - but I spent nearly forty active years as part of the British revival - and the only difference between Ireland and the UK is that over here they have guaranteed that the songs and music will survive into the next generation, and that hasn't happened by accident.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: What is it that makes folk radio a success?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 27 Dec 10 - 02:44 PM

I know and admire your work Jim. I am in the United States.

We could debate the diversity and audience size of classical versus folk, and I would point out the number of full time radio stations here that broadcast classical as opposed to folk.

I really do not believe we lost audience because we "tried to please them all". If anything, I think that the faction that drew lines in the sand as to what was folk turned off more people than helped gain new fans. There was also the "Mighty Wind" crowd that turned folk into a commercial entity that bore little connection to what anyone would consider the tradition.

I am certain that the songs and music will survive into the next generation and well beyone. People have been predicting the doom of the traditions since the early 1900's and it has not happened yet, and I doubt it ever will. The only difference is, the tradition that they were trying to save 100 years ago was a living tradition, and we have a contemporary version of that living tradition that tends to get ignored or downplayed.   The gift is the song itself, not the pedigree.

Subject: RE: What is it that makes folk radio a success?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Dec 10 - 03:30 PM

Ron,
Can't speak for the US - I saw the downturn here in the UK, which was preceeded by a remarkable public debate started off by an article in Folk Review entitled 'Crap Begets Crap' - still have some of it on file.
The clubs I had experience of that lasted longers with the largest audiences were those which didn't flap their arms about and run round like headless chickens were those which decided what music they were going to specialise in, and went for it.
Those who dropped out of the scene did so because they were neither fish nor fowl.
The persistant compaint at the time was that people wouldn't go to folk clubs because they didn't know what they were going to hear.
The scene never picked up from there.
"I am certain that the songs and music will survive into the next generation and well beyone."
I wonder which songs and music - I can tell you what Irish songs and music will survive and flourish - don't have clue about the UK any more - the scene seems to be full of mayflies whose attention span doesn't stretch over more than three verses.
Good luck -
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: What is it that makes folk radio a success?
From: TheSnail
Date: 27 Dec 10 - 05:00 PM

Jim Carroll

don't have clue about the UK any more

Glad you've finally admitted it, Jim.

Subject: RE: What is it that makes folk radio a success?
From: Lox
Date: 27 Dec 10 - 05:20 PM

Government funding ...

Subject: RE: What is it that makes folk radio a success?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Dec 10 - 02:53 AM

"Glad you've finally admitted it, Jim. "
Nope - don't have a clue how they/you are going to get out of the mess they/you have gotten themselves/youurselves in Stanley.
Might have worked with a concious attempt to raise standards, but you seem all set against that.
Just know what has worked over here.
"Government funding."
That's been a massive help in Ireland, where appeals for grants have been pushing on an open door; it's funded some wonderful long and short-term projects.
Not sure how it would be regarded with a revival who can't even define their music.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: What is it that makes folk radio a success?
From: TheSnail
Date: 29 Dec 10 - 02:23 PM

I know this is futile but there are points that need responding to.

Jim Carroll

don't have a clue how they/you are going to get out of the mess they/you have gotten themselves/youurselves in Stanley.

As you have pointed out, Jim, UK folk clubs went into decline during the eighties at a time when you were involved as an organiser and I was not. The real question is, how do those who stayed on (rather than walking out and heading for the west coast of Ireland) and have been successfully running clubs ever since and those of us who have taken up the reins since then get out of the mess that YOU got us into. On the whole, I don't think we're doing too badly. But then you wouldn't know because, as you quite rightly say, you don't have clue about the UK any more.

Might have worked with a concious attempt to raise standards, but you seem all set against that.

Hmmm, trying to decide whether that constitutes a personal attack worthy of a complaint to Joe or even a civil case for slander. I care very much for raising standards. I put in a considerable amount of practice to raise my own standard. The residents of the club, by their own example and by their booking policy, try and create an atmosphere in which standards matter. We try to provide an environment in which people can raise their own standards because, ultimately, we believe that responsibility for performance standards lies with the performer. What we don't do, is try to impose our standards on other people.

Just know what has worked over here.
"Government funding."
That's been a massive help in Ireland, where appeals for grants have been pushing on an open door; it's funded some wonderful long and short-term projects.

Count yourself lucky. We don't have that here. The government attitude is somewhere between indifference and hostility, not just to folk music but to all community based music. They would rather people were watching SKY Sport.

Don't get too smug. In the present economic climate, that funding could disappear in a moment and Irish traditional music could evaporate like the morning mist. We have to fend for ourselves so we may be more resilient.

Subject: RE: What is it that makes folk radio a success?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Dec 10 - 03:24 PM

Still as snide as ever I see
I was involved in the clubs up to twelve years ago, when we moved here.
The clubs we halped run were reasonably successful - the Singers only closed after the death of Ewan, and Peggy's move back to America - (perhaps you'd like to take that up with her).
Not coincidentally, all the clubs were policy clubs so the audiences who turned up knew what they were going to get - and we didn't lower the standard by encouraging people who couldn't sing to perform in public, by making the basic crierion that they want to sing - whether they could manage to handle a tune or not - we gave them a workshop to help them develop.
"I don't think we're doing too badly."
Even my limited experience, and the discussion on this forum pesuades me that the case is different - unless your life doesn't extend beyong the boundaries of Lewes.
"a complaint to Joe or even a civil case for slander."
Please feel free - you started this in your customary unpleasant way, and you continue it equally unpleasantly.   
"Count yourself lucky."
Nothing to do with luck - knowing what your music is and focusing on it has worked wonders.
"Don't get too smug. In the present economic climate, that funding could disappear in a moment"
It could indeed, but the fact that thousands of youngsters have joined the scene and are playing well leaves us with a fair chance that it will survive in good health for at least another generation - it's no longer about money, if it ever was. The people who put in the work did so from scratch when Irish music was being sneered at on the media as 'diddly-di' music.
Everything that has been gained here has been hard fought for.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: What is it that makes folk radio a success?
From: The Sandman
Date: 29 Dec 10 - 05:58 PM

Music should be about ENJOYMENT.
If the presenter of a programme manages to communicate that enthusiasm, and manages to blend their enthusiasm with a knowledge of the music that should hopefully be a stepping stone to success.

Subject: RE: What is it that makes folk radio a success?
From: The Sandman
Date: 29 Dec 10 - 06:54 PM

Pardon me for interrupting,You are 2 people who care about promoting music, you have sightly different approaches and different ideas about performance.
your ideals probably work well for your own different situations.
maybe that is the success of folk radio presentation knowing your audience,and receiving feedback from ones audience, would not a radio presenter in Clare have a somewhat different audience to a Sussex radio presenter?.

Subject: RE: What is it that makes folk radio a success?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Dec 10 - 03:48 AM

"Pardon me for interrupting,You are 2 people who care about promoting music, "
Not about sharing ideas here Cap'n - it's about being shouted (in this case sneered') down by people who don't like your opinions.
Jm Carroll

Subject: RE: What is it that makes folk radio a success?
From: TheSnail
Date: 30 Dec 10 - 10:08 AM

Perhaps I should have resisted the temptation to poke fun at Jim for his admition that he didn't "have clue about the UK any more" but it was such an easy target.

I have no criticism of Jim's work or methods but great admiration for everything he has done for folk music. If not, I wouldn't be bothering with him.

What now seems a long time ago, I gave an honest answer to a simple question about choice of floor singers. Since then I have been treated to a tirade of abuse flowing out from Miltown Malbay. I have been told my opinions are crass, that I am guilty of dumbing down and promoting crap standards and now that I am all set against raising standards. It makes Jim's complaint of "being shouted (in this case sneered') down by people who don't like your opinions" a bit rich.

I have tried in the past to debate reasonably with Jim but he invariably descends into abuse as soon as he runs out of rational arguments.

I think I am fairly restrained in my responses but it's difficult to be immaculately polite to someone who once compared me to Goebbels.

Still, it's nice to know I'm in good company. This article in Living Tradition and the

response in the letters page make interesting reading.

Subject: RE: What is it that makes folk radio a success?
From: The Sandman
Date: 30 Dec 10 - 01:04 PM

Bryan, it is ridiculous to suggest that Jim was responsible for the supposed mess.
yes, it does make interesting reading, but WHY mention it?
That review in my opinion, was an example of how not to write a review.
   I think Jim had a genuine reason for complaint.
my opinions are pretty much the same as yours [Bryan] as regards the running of folk clubs, and I enjoyed your club very much ,furthermore the running of workshops[by your club] is an excellent idea, for which Valmai Goodyear and yourself and the rest of the committee deserves a medal.Dick Miles

Subject: RE: What is it that makes folk radio a success?
From: The Sandman
Date: 30 Dec 10 - 02:42 PM

sorry , my apologies, I was referring to a different review,Bryan, I still dont understand the necessity for mentioning this review

Subject: RE: What is it that makes folk radio a success?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Dec 10 - 02:42 PM

Sorry Cap'n
Thanks for your support, but I think you have the wrong article in mind.
Bryan
I think you'll find any abuse was very much a two-way street - we're all prone to overstating on occasion
"rather than walking out and heading for the west coast of Ireland)"
Don't ever remember being as snide as that - but I'm sure you're happy to remind me (did I really compare you with Goebells? Now that was over the top, for which I apologise - but would welcome being reminded).
Basically, our arguments stem from your proposal (said by you to be your club policy) that wannabe singers need not be able to sing before they are encouraged in front of an audience. I believe this to be a policy of dumbing down, made even worse by your admission that you didn't have non-singers turning up for a floor spot, so it was a proposdal aimed at clubs other than your own.
As stupidly stubborn as it may sound, I will go to the grave believing that would-be singers need to learn to sing in tune before they are put in front of an audience - paying or otherwise. Not to insist on this is an insult to the audience, to the club residents, and shows a contempt for the songs.
Thanks for putting up my letter (not article) to L.T. I may phrase things differently nowadays, but there's nothing I would withdraw, especially as it was aimed at somebody who I once held in great respect for his contribution to the early days of the revival.
I'm fairly happy with and proud of the contribution Pat and I made to preserving and disseminating British and Irish folksong, and, as much of our work was done in Ireland, I have no qualms in having moved here to tie up loose ends of our work, and where, incidentally, we have found a welcoming home for our recordings, which leave us in the happy situation of not having to worry or browbeat anybody in order to make them fully accessible to the general public, thanks to the Irish Traditional Music Archive - would such a place existed in the UK for our English recordings.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: What is it that makes folk radio a success?
From: Valmai Goodyear
Date: 30 Dec 10 - 08:12 PM

Jim Carroll wrote:

'Might have worked with a concious attempt to raise standards, but you seem all set against that.'

I suggest he looks at Lewes Saturday Folk Club Workshops 2011, Lewes Favourites English Tunes Practice Sessions 2011 and Lewes Concertinas Anonymous 2011.

Happy New Year,

Valmai (Lewes)

Subject: RE: What is it that makes folk radio a success?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Dec 10 - 02:58 AM

Hi Valmai;
Have always admired and envied your workshops, and have said so on numerous occasions. But I still can't see any on how to deal with helping new, or non-singers tackle the rudiments of singing (rather than encouraging them to 'practice in public') - which is really what this has always been about.
Happy New Year and continuing success to your club.
Jim Carrol

Subject: RE: What is it that makes folk radio a success?
From: Valmai Goodyear
Date: 31 Dec 10 - 05:20 AM

I should have thought it was fairly obvious that some of the song workshops will deal with precisely that. For example, Frankie Armstrong did a whole workshop on vocal technique barely a month ago.

We book guests of high standard. Our residents are of reasonable to high standard and most do a certain amount of paid work. We teach by example. We also create a friendly, supportive atmosphere in which new singers can experiment, gain confidence and improve. Telling people to shut up avoids taking risks with hesitant performers in the short term, but in the long term discourages new singers from trying and kills off the very support the music needs.

I think this thread should return to the original topic.

Valmai (Lewes)

Subject: RE: What is it that makes folk radio a success?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Dec 10 - 06:08 AM

"We teach by example."
Sorry Valmai - not enough for some singers in my experience; those able to respond by example are more often than not, able to handle a basic tune - it's those who can't that raise problems.
Far from 'telling people to 'shut up' as I would never do, preventing singers from humiliating themselves in front of an audience when they are unable even to handle the basics, seems both helpful and humane to me.
I know Frankie and her work well enough to know, (unless she has changed radically) it is aimed at people who can hold tunes.
Anyway - as you say - back to the topic.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: What is it that makes folk radio a success?
From: TheSnail
Date: 31 Dec 10 - 09:06 AM

Jim Carroll

Bryan
I think you'll find any abuse was very much a two-way street - we're all prone to overstating on occasion

Please feel free to quote anything I have said that compares with your direct personal attacks on me. Here is your Joe Goebbels reference.

"rather than walking out and heading for the west coast of Ireland)"

The Living Tradition letter that I linked to above is your explanation of why you walked out on the folk clubs.

Basically, our arguments stem from your proposal (said by you to be your club policy) that wannabe singers need not be able to sing before they are encouraged in front of an audience.

I have never said anything of the sort.

I believe this to be a policy of dumbing down, made even worse by your admission that you didn't have non-singers turning up for a floor spot, so it was a proposdal aimed at clubs other than your own.

No, I never said that either.

As stupidly stubborn as it may sound, I will go to the grave believing that would-be singers need to learn to sing in tune before they are put in front of an audience - paying or otherwise.

I entierly agree. Where have I ever said otherwise?

I'm fairly happy with and proud of the contribution Pat and I made to preserving and disseminating British and Irish folksong

As indeed you are entitled to be. It's just a pity that that is not the way you will be remembered. Instead, you will live on in people's memories as that embittered old man who seemed intent on undermining the efforts of all those who were striving to keep folk music alive in the UK.

And in your reply to Valmai -

preventing singers from humiliating themselves in front of an audience when they are unable even to handle the basics, seems both helpful and humane to me.

How many of the floor singers at the Lewes Saturday Folk Club and, previously, the Lewes Arms Folk Club, do you consider, from your experience, fall into that category? Name names if you like.

Subject: RE: What is it that makes folk radio a success?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 31 Dec 10 - 09:34 AM

Amazing how a disucssion about radio has turned into a pissing contest about the state of affairs about folk clubs in the UK.   Can we either get back on track or take your discussion that effects dozens to another thread?

Subject: RE: What is it that makes folk radio a success?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Jan 11 - 07:53 AM

"Amazing how a disucssion about radio has turned into a pissing contest about the state of affairs about folk clubs in the UK"
Not really Ron - this and related discussions can be a hypothetical 'what if we could have a choice of how our music is broadcast' ones, or - 'how do we improve the situation in order to get greater access to the media'.
Personally I would prefer the latter - you decide what you want to talk about.
Bryan - I apologise for my Goebells comment - made in the heat of a particularly bad-tempered discussion. In my own defence, it pisses me off no end to have what I say and believe to be persistently misrepresented - but on this occasion I went over the top - sorry.
"you will live on in people's memories as that embittered old man "
Not a fair assessment, and made in the spirit of nastiness I described above - there's an example for you. Certainly not the way we are treated here by those we work and associate with , but I'm not really interested in how I'm remembered as long as the people who we recorded are given the respect they merit.
We can argue the rest of your points here or elsewhere, depending on the tolerance or otherwise of the other contributors to this thread.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: What is it that makes folk radio a success?
From: The Sandman
Date: 01 Jan 11 - 08:38 AM

Most of The Radio Ballads were a success, What were the successful ingredients.
I heard the last of the recent lyric programme the Sea in Song,imo it was successful.

Subject: RE: What is it that makes folk radio a success?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Jan 11 - 09:23 AM

For those interested, Irish Lyric FM is commencing a 4 part series entitled 'Compass Ceoil' - a history of Irish traditional music.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: What is it that makes folk radio a success?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Jan 11 - 09:38 AM

Sorry didn't finish - commencing on Monday January 3rd at 6pm and continuing over the next 3 nights.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: What is it that makes folk radio a success?
From: The Sandman
Date: 01 Jan 11 - 09:48 AM

brilliant Jim, will try to listen

Subject: RE: What is it that makes folk radio a success?
From: TheSnail
Date: 01 Jan 11 - 10:38 AM

Sorry Ron. As I said, perhaps I should not have risen to the bait of Jim's "don't have clue about the UK any more" but it was such a gift.

He responded with a predictably slanderous and abusive personal attack so I felt I had to respond in the place the attack was made. He escalated the conflict and so it goes. He tried a similar technique on Alan Whittle's "Keith and Jim - a love story?" shit stirring thread (Why wasn't it killed at birth?) where he succeeded in making the right wingers look like the good guys.

There possibly should be a thread on how those of us who are working hard to promote the music we love should repair the damage that was done thirty years ago but I fear it would turn into a bloodbath.

Subject: RE: What is it that makes folk radio a success?
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Jan 11 - 11:18 AM

"Personally I would prefer the latter - you decide what you want to talk about."

Meow!!!

I guess everyone has an agenda. Those of us who are in media have our own. Mine is to perpetuate the tradition as well the contemporary offspring that blooms from the tradition.

Subject: RE: What is it that makes folk radio a success?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Jan 11 - 11:37 AM

"Sorry Ron. As I said, perhaps I should not have risen to the bait of Jim's "don't have clue about the UK any more" but it was such a gift.

He responded with a predictably slanderous and abusive personal attack so I felt I had to respond in the place the attack was made. He escalated the conflict and so it goes. He tried a similar technique on Alan Whittle's "Keith and Jim - a love story?" shit stirring thread (Why wasn't it killed at birth?) where he succeeded in making the right wingers look like the good guys.

There possibly should be a thread on how those of us who are working hard to promote the music we love should repair the damage that was done thirty years ago but I fear it would turn into a bloodbath. "

And another exampl3e of your bile - as you requested
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: What is it that makes folk radio a success?
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Jan 11 - 11:47 AM

Jim, obviously I cannot view the world from your point of view.    I can only say that the work you have done has enabled all of us to discover a world of traditional music that would have been lost to us. That work cannot be damaged - for every scribble of graffiti, the "Mona Lisa" continues to exist for us to enjoy and learn from.

Whatever direction music has taken in your country or in England, your work stands on it's own. Instead of stooping to demean the changes that others have brought, your should be showing of the lustre of your own work and the brilliant facets that attracted YOU to the music and tradition in the first place. People are attracted to what they enjoy, and while you and I may have different definitions of how the folk tradition continues or stops, your vision should not be clouded from view.

It has been proved in advertising that negative adverts usually fail - people do not want to hear why Product A is bad, they need to see why Product B is something they would want to invest in.

Take the petty squabbles to the schoolyard, keep the discussion on track.

Subject: RE: What is it that makes folk radio a success?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 01 Jan 11 - 11:48 AM

Sorry, that last post was mine. I did not realize my cookie disappeared

Subject: RE: What is it that makes folk radio a success?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 01 Jan 11 - 11:55 AM

It's the gyrating go-go girls, of course! Anyone knows that. You can't see them when it's on the radio, mind you, but you just know that they are there.

Subject: RE: What is it that makes folk radio a success?
From: Jeri
Date: 01 Jan 11 - 11:56 AM

I wish there were a way to duct tape the trolls and their "camp followers" together and get them the fuck out of the threads. You're like a brawl that starts at the dining room table and crashes through walls and doors throughout the neighborhood until running out of steam several blocks and demolished houses away. Then you find something else to fight about.

You might feel like you need an audience, but I don't think your audience thanks you. As one person who has to wade through your shit in whatever thread you're currently brawling through, and as a member of your accidental audience who wonders if you have any control over yourselves at all:

please

shut

up.

Subject: RE: What is it that makes folk radio a success?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Jan 11 - 12:06 PM

"Whatever direction music has taken in your country or in England, your work stands on it's own."
Sorry guest - thanks for your kind words, but they don't come anywhere near resolving the problems of today's revival as I see them.
Our motivation for becoming involved in collecting was the inspiration obtained from our long experience with the clubs. Some of the most pleasurable times were got from our accompanying some of our singer friends to the clubs that were prepared to book them.
The warning bells sounded when, while arrangeing a few small tours for some of them we got replies like "Walter Pardon - what does he do?"; followed by, "Sorry, we only book folksingers".
I'm afraid in today's club scene, the Walters and Tom Lenihans and Mikeen McCarthy's would find a hearing in very few clubs, thanks to many of "the changes that others have brought."
I have never claimed that this is the case everywhere, but from the arguments on this forum, enough to be of serious concern.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: What is it that makes folk radio a success?
From: The Sandman
Date: 01 Jan 11 - 12:28 PM

I'm afraid in today's club scene, the Walters and Tom Lenihans and Mikeen McCarthy's would find a hearing in very few clubs, thanks to many of "the changes that others have brought."
Jim, the same also applies to unaccompanied revival singers, BACK IN 1976 ,I realised that to still get work on the uk folk scene, I would have to learn an instrument.
I apologise to all those people who over the years, I have upset with my concertina playing, particuarly those on www.session.org.
I apologise for not sounding like Noel Hill, I apologise for not playing in the proscribed comhaltas manner on the anglo concertina, on my English concertina,I apologise for having the temerity as an Englishman to think I could even play music.

Subject: RE: What is it that makes folk radio a success?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 01 Jan 11 - 01:13 PM

"I'm afraid in today's club scene, the Walters and Tom Lenihans and Mikeen McCarthy's would find a hearing in very few clubs, thanks to many of "the changes that others have brought."

Perhaps they weren't meant to be heard in the clubs in the first place. Once you take the music out of the environment from which it was spawned and put it on the stage, you are creating a form of entertainment that was not part of the tradition. The reality is, audiences for that style of music are sparse, and probably have always been sparse.

A few years ago we presented the late Mike Seeger at our club, the Hurdy Gurdy.   Only 50 people attended, and were treated to a marvelous program. It was important that the show be presented, and while we lost money it was well worth the investment. We presented a comparatively unknown singer-songwriter the following month and drew 3 times the audience, making up for our loss.   The point is, each has it's own audience and each grows from the same roots.   It's just my opinion, but perhaps the big mistake was trying to force audiences in a pub setting to listen to music that requires a bit more consideration to be appreciated.

Subject: RE: What is it that makes folk radio a success?
From: The Sandman
Date: 01 Jan 11 - 01:38 PM

back to radio, would you say that Lord Reith was incorrect then Ron
Reithianism

The term 'Reithianism' describes certain principles of broadcasting associated with Lord Reith. These include an equal consideration of all viewpoints, probity, universality and a commitment to public service. It can be distinguished from the free-market approach to broadcasting, where programming aims to attract the largest audiences or advertising revenues, ahead of - and, in practice, often contrary to - any artistic merit, impartiality, educative or entertainment values, that a programme may have.
The purpose of folk clubs is not just bums on seats, that is why they often meet in a pub with a seperate room.

Subject: RE: What is it that makes folk radio a success?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 01 Jan 11 - 01:57 PM

I have no clue as to Lord Reith. In the U.S. we had regulations that concerned broadcasting - an attempt to offer all viewpoints and to make it feasible for non-commercial stations with marginal audiences to exist. All of that went out the window with Reagan's push for deregulation, starting in the 1980's.   Now, public radio stations are competing for funds - which means donors or larger audiences.

I agree that the purpose of folk clubs is not just "bums" on seats - that was what I was trying to point out with my note about Mike Seeger. It is extremely important that they be heard and have a stage to share their art and history, but it needs to be done logically.

Perhaps the old models do not work and new stages need to be found when the "folk club" model that you have in England is not working. You can do something for the finest principles, but if no one shows up or the venue is losing money, an alternate must be found.   Perhaps churches can offer rooms or other community centers that do not rely on putting "bums" in seats.

The majority of our "folk clubs" are held in such establishments - no alcohol is present.   Believe me, I'm not a tea-totaler, I even brew my own beer, but what we have are "listening rooms" where the attraction is the music and other distractions are not present.

It's a cliche, but you need to think outside the box. Don't moan the old lightbulb, try a new LED and see how it works.

Subject: RE: What is it that makes folk radio a success?
From: The Sandman
Date: 01 Jan 11 - 02:06 PM

i do not accept that folk clubs are not working, where did you get that eccentric idea, have you been listening to JC

Subject: RE: What is it that makes folk radio a success?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 01 Jan 11 - 02:12 PM

Schweik - if they were all still around, would you book and fill a room for Walter Pardons and Tom Lenihans and Mikeen McCarthy's?

Subject: RE: What is it that makes folk radio a success?
From: TheSnail
Date: 01 Jan 11 - 02:35 PM

Interesting. The clubs I go to would be fighting over who could get Walter Pardon first if he was still available. I hear his songs sung on a regular basis along with those of many other source singers. Tom Lenihan and Mikeen McCarthy, I'm not so sure about but then, we are in England. On the other hand, the "Other Club" in Lewes has booked Oliver Mulligan, Len Graham, and Con 'Fada' O'Driscoll in recent memory. Delightful performers all.

As for unnaccompanied singing, a floor singer going on towards the end of the evening a few months ago at the LSFC did an amusing skit on it - "For those who have never seen one before, this is a guitar."

Subject: RE: What is it that makes folk radio a success?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 01 Jan 11 - 02:50 PM

I feel that there is a place for both under the "folk" umbrella. The problem arises when there is a lack of tolerance for the tastes of others.

Subject: RE: What is it that makes folk radio a success?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Jan 11 - 04:18 AM

"Perhaps they weren't meant to be heard in the clubs in the first place"
Interesting that there was not one voice raised in protest to this outrageous statement.
Walter Pardon's 'natural environment' was to sit at home alone for thirty years , reconstructing his familiy's songs and keep them alive in his memory with the help of his melodeon. I wonder if anybody here ever saw him perform at a club and hold the audience in the palm of his hands with his beautiful singing.
Or Mikeen McCarthy, Traveller singer and storyteller - there is a wonderful warm review of his performance at the Musical Traditions Club in one of the magazines (Dance and Song?).
I was lucky enough to see The Stewarts, Wille Scott, Harry Cox, Willie McFee, Charlie Wills, Tom Lenihan..... never got to see Sam Larner, but have heard enough descriptions of his handful of legendary public performances to wish I had.
Which of us was "meant to be heard in the clubs" - can't recall hearing of anybody born in front of an audience.
These people were the glue that has kept my interest alive for coming up to half a century - yet the attitude appears to be "give us your songs and feck off home and leave them to the experts".
Thank you for making my point far better than I could Ron.
"The problem arises when there is a lack of tolerance for the tastes of others."
You mean like those who would cut out all the ballads as being "too long and boring", or who sneer at unaccompanied singing as 'finger-in-ear', or the "sorry, we only book folksingers" mob.
Not so long ago I heard of a US festival of traditional music that only booked artists who "had written their own material" - how far away from your music can you get and still call yourself 'folk'?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: What is it that makes folk radio a success?
From: GUEST,Alan Squires
Date: 02 Jan 11 - 05:16 AM

Going back to the topic title:

It is a success but it makes great broadcasting - i.e. Folkwaves.

I have seen the new schedule for Radio Derby on Monday evenings and Folkwaves is being replaced by a Cambridge grad talk show presenter - one assumes , playing pappy music and listening to callers - it will be a fascinating programme - just like all the other talk shows that make local radio what it is - generally uninspiring with a few exceptions.
Please write to [e-mail] and tell him - I have. Its a absolute disgrace to broadcasting

Subject: RE: What is it that makes folk radio a success?
From: Vic Smith
Date: 02 Jan 11 - 06:45 AM

Bryan wrote:-
"On the other hand, the "Other Club" in Lewes has booked Oliver Mulligan Len Graham and Con 'Fada' O'Driscoll in recent memory."

Not forgetting Kathleen O'Sullivan, Joe Whelan, Liam Farrell, Joe Burke, Cathal McConnell, Brendan McGlinchey, Kevin Mitchell, Roisin White, Jimmy Crowley, Jerry O'Reilly, Jim McFarland, Phil Callery, Brendan McAuley, Rosie Stewart, Creena Mulchrone and Luke Cheevers.

..... Not bad for an organisation that is just the "Other Club".

Subject: RE: What is it that makes folk radio a success?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 02 Jan 11 - 08:33 AM

"Thank you for making my point far better than I could Ron."

I don't think you realize it, but you actually made MY point in your reply.

You've shown that you have blinders on to anyones opinion but your own, and you are not critically examining the conditions and settings that created the Walter Pardons. When you cannot overcome "had written their own material", there is no use discussing because it becomes obvious that your steadfast OPINION will never be satisfied.

Lack of tolerance appears to be the only problem hear. When you turn a source singer into an entertainer, the playing field is leveled. If you cannot accept that they become entertainers, then there can be no discussion.

I mean no disrespect. Everything you say about the singers and music that you love is valid and I admire. The music grew from that source, and you cannot see the connection.

Subject: RE: What is it that makes folk radio a success?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 02 Jan 11 - 09:18 AM

" "Perhaps they weren't meant to be heard in the clubs in the first place"
Interesting that there was not one voice raised in protest to this outrageous statement."

I'm also surprised that not one voice was raised in protest to the fact that you took ONE sentence of what I said and manipulated to become an arguing pint, when if you read my statements - I am supporting the style of performer you wish to see presented, but questioning if the setting might be the issue.

I always question whether the collector is filtering what they gather to fulfill their own vision, rather than report and hold up a mirror to what the tradition created. Perhaps that explains why contemporary folk traditions are not even considered.

Subject: RE: What is it that makes folk radio a success?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Jan 11 - 11:19 AM

"When you turn a source singer into an entertainer,"
Source singers have always been 'entertainers' of one form or another.
As far as the setting is concerned - the ones I named became seasoned performers, some of them very quickly. I can remember very few revival singers who stood up in front of an audience with the authority that Walter Pardon did - ask anybody lucky to have seen him perform.
Not all source singers were comfortable with audiences - on the other hand I can think of many revival singers.... "I learned this coming here in the car tonight, so just in case, I'll read it from the page..."
In many cases (most, among the ones we met), the revival provided the only platform for older singers, and they were delighted, and more than able, to perform at clubs - ask anybody who saw, say - John Campbell, or the Stewarts of Blair, or Duncan Williamson, or Tom Lenihan - great performers all.
Why should I - or anybody doubt that our traditional singers were 'entertainers' - the fact that they are so much more, doesn't alter that fact?
You seem to have a number of misconceptions about collectors and their attitude to tarditional singers - wonder what you would have made of Hamish Henderson's 'People's Concerts in Edinburgh way back in the middle of the last century.
Personally, I was delighted to find clubs who would give floor space to the singers we recorded, and found it very indicative of the downturn of the revival when those clubs became less and less.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: What is it that makes folk radio a success?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 02 Jan 11 - 11:26 AM

Wait...

I've changed my mind. It's not the unseen (yet ever present) gyrating go-go girls who make folk radio the huge success that it is...though, God knows, they are one of its sustaining pillars.

But nope. It's not them.

I'll tell you what it is that makes folk radio a success. It is the complete absence of Bobby Vinton polkas, Tony Clifton ballads, and Wayne Newton songs! That's what does it.

You can all quit now and move on to some other thread. ;-) Nothing more to see here.