BS: Non Muslim prejudice

Subject: RE: BS: Non Muslim prejudice
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 02 Apr 11 - 08:54 PM

Theres no point in pretending these countries which have no history or tradition of liberal or public education are going to behave like an educated population.

If sociology were as established and and accepted a science as chemistry, this guy is like the idiot who pours water onto concentrated acid. The results of his actions are just as predictably destructive.

there should be some way of sanctioning a man who ignores advice and is so reckless with human life.

Subject: RE: BS: Non Muslim prejudice
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 03 Apr 11 - 01:04 AM

---Trying to isolate the actions of a group of fanatics as representative of Muslims world-wide is like blaming the downing of passenger airlines on birds.---
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
This strand of Islam ~ the 'militant Islamist', so-called ~ is indeed a comparatively small segment of worldwide Islam (tho it would be hard to assess how much its aims and methods are, secretly or not-so-secretly, admired or supported or sympathised with by other Muslims worldwide}; but their influence, and worldwide effects, and profile generally are obviously disproportionate to their numbers. Otherwise the Twin Towers would still be standing, and that editor of Rushdie's would still be alive, and those tube trains & that London bus would still be running.

And it is their high-profile example and success in continuing to keep us all twitchy and nervy and apprehensive and looking over our shoulders all the time which will have inspired this latest enormity in response to the - undeniably idiotic - provocation of the Koran-burning.

So the birds/airliners analogy won't really wash, will it, in regard to this small but powerful segment of Islam whose universal effect & overall influence is so disproportionate to their actual number?

~Michael~

Subject: RE: BS: Non Muslim prejudice
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 03 Apr 11 - 01:06 AM

He's either (a) a publicity-seeking fuckwit or, (b) an extremely dangerous man.

I'm not sure which, other than to say that anyone with more than a single functioning brain-cell must realise that deliberately and publically 'insulting' a religion which, everyone knows, is on a very short fuse indeed, is a very dangerous thing to do and will result in a rapid and disproportionate response from its followers.

The comparison of that response to the likely reaction of Christians to the hypothetical burning of a Bible doesn't hold water in today's world - Christianity is a comparatively mature religion in comparison with Islam and, generally speaking, its teachings and the attitudes of its followers, not to mention its political intentions and methods, have matured too - sufficiently such that it can turn a blind eye to such provocation, shrug its collective shoulders and say, "Ho-hum". But if we go back a few hundred years that certainly was not the case and Christians' behaviour towards non-Christians, or even towards fellow Christians who were felt not to be "Christian enough", was just as reactive and bloodthirsty as anything we see today from the extreme elements within Islam (who, undoubtedly, were influencing, if not controlling, the actions of the protesters and beheaders in Afghanistan).

So maybe its best all round if "Christians" like Pastor Jones remember the message in Matthew 7:3 - "And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?", and STFU.

Thankfully, Pastor Jones is not typical of Christians, at least of the Christians I know.

And in writing this, I've reached the conclusion that he's both (a) and (b) - he's a Very Dangerous, Publicity-Seeking Fuckwit.

Disclaimers - IMHO, YMMV etc.

Subject: RE: BS: Non Muslim prejudice
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 03 Apr 11 - 01:09 AM

Sorry Mike, posted at the same time, but in agreement.

Subject: RE: BS: Non Muslim prejudice
From: Silas
Date: 03 Apr 11 - 05:24 AM

"If you stick your arm into a tigers cage, don't be surprised if he bites it off, he knows no better, but you do."
============
Are we to take it from this, Silas, that you think Islamists are the equivalent of dumb beasts and "know no better"? Or what is your point?

~M~


I think these people are no better or worse that the Christians of the 12/13c and even later. "Dumb Beasts" is not a phrase that I would have used, but it is fairly appropriate.

Subject: RE: BS: Non Muslim prejudice
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Apr 11 - 05:59 AM

I don't think Jones is stupid (if that is what fuckwit means?) at all. He is definitely publicity seeking but he is, in my opnion, probably smart enough to realise the consequences of his actions. It is the mob that reacted in such a way that are short on the old grey matter. That being said leads me to believe that he is responsible for inciting hatred but he is still not guilty of murder. In the UK we do indeed have laws against such incitement. Maybe it is time there was a worldide panel to judge these things and the penalties should be high enough to be meaningful.

However. Does anyone seriously believe that such laws would stop the right wing press from their incidious war against Islam? Would such laws stop the gun-waving, shoe-throwing idiots in the middle east we see on the news most days? I suspect not. But if they did stop tossers like Jones and, just maybe, save a couple of lives they would be worthwhile. Trouble is, of course, that if the right wing Christians were jumped upon from a great height while the mad Immams of the east get away with burning whatever they like with impunity the afore mentioned right wing press would definitely have a field day.

In other words - we can't win:-(

DeG

Subject: RE: BS: Non Muslim prejudice
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 03 Apr 11 - 06:17 AM

I suspect the last 3 words of your post are probably only too literally true, DeG. I feel quite pleased, on the whole, that I shall be 80 next year, & probably shan't last long enough to see the lovely all-arse·in·the·air·forehead·on·ground·knocking, all-adultress·stoning, all thief·amputating, all-tergiversator-beheading, all-wine·sipper·flogging world which will be here in not too many years time when the you-know-whos are in charge...

~Michael~

Subject: RE: BS: Non Muslim prejudice
From: Stringsinger
Date: 03 Apr 11 - 02:34 PM

"Christianity is a comparatively mature religion in comparison with Islam "

Who says? It is historically grossly unjust.

Historically, Islam was more of an accepting religion of other religions. In early
Byzantine times, Jews were accepted although made to pay taxes.

Christians burned those who disagreed with them.

Why should anything be different today? There are some in religions who are crazy and some not.

You think Terry Jones is mature? He says he's a Christian. Prove that he isn't.

Do you dare to say that you know all about
Islam to make this ludicrous judgement?

A holy book is subject to cherry-picking and interpretation and only the Islamic crazies
get publicized on Christian dominated Media.

Ignorance is riding roughshod over thoughtful analysis, these days.

Subject: RE: BS: Non Muslim prejudice
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Apr 11 - 02:56 PM

"Pastor" Jones was pretty clearly hoping to get this kind of reaction when he burnt the book, and he succeeded.

Shouting "Fire" in a crowded theatre is generally given as a case where an absolute "freedom of speech" ceases to apply, and this should be recognised as a similar case.

Subject: RE: BS: Non Muslim prejudice
From: GUEST,Dave the gnome sans biscuit for some reason.
Date: 03 Apr 11 - 06:08 PM

"Christianity is a comparatively mature religion in comparison with Islam "

Who says? It is historically grossly unjust.

Do you mean who says that Christianity is more mature than Islam? Duuuh - Most historians ascribe the beginning of Islam during the lifetime of the Prophet Mohammed who lived during the 6th and 7th Centuries, from 570 to 632 A.D. If you can't figure that out, this makes christianty around 500 years older than islam. Which I think pretty much answers your question.

If however, you are saying that maturity does not equate to age then please give us an example of what you mean by maturity. Is it no longer stoning the alduteress to death while the aldulterer goes free? Or maybe it is not allowing half the population basic freedom? If that is being more mature than I thank whatever powers there happen to be that I am still in the sandbox.

D.

Subject: RE: BS: Non Muslim prejudice
From: Green Man
Date: 04 Apr 11 - 07:55 AM

The incident in question highlights the cultural difference between the west and east. In the light of the Koran those people are guilty of murder and will be damned for eternity. The problems between non Muslims and Muslims vary greatly depending on which way the followers of Islam interpret the book.

While followers of Islam believe that the book is the word of the one true God they rely on men to interpret it and we have seen the path that that leads down.

I am not a Christian, neither am I a Muslim although my own moral code and sense of right and wrong, justice and injustice largely follow the tenets of both faiths.

I believe in punishment. The perpetrators shoud be found tried and serve the sentence imposed on them.

Until a religion actually follows the rules laid down in the relevant book, they will remain irrelevent to me and I suspect many other people.

GM

Subject: RE: BS: Non Muslim prejudice
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 04 Apr 11 - 08:19 AM

"Ignorance is riding roughshod over thoughtful analysis, these days.

So your idea of 'thoughtful analysis' is to simply rubbish something that someone else has actually thought carefully about? Mmmmm.

Hardly the way to encourage reasoned debate. Sorry buddy, you'll have to find another victim.

I think DeG summed it up nicely, thanks Dave.

Now I'm off, and leave Stringsinger to pursue his thoughtful analysis.

Subject: RE: BS: Non Muslim prejudice
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 04 Apr 11 - 08:59 AM

But before I do go, and to answer Stringsinger's scathing comments, my meaning was perfectly clear to anyone with half-decent English comprehension skills, and I didn't think it would be necessary to spell it out in words of one syllable or less - Christianity is a much older religion than Islam, and five hundred or so years ago Christians behaved in much the same way as Islamic extremists are wont to do nowadays, in that they persecuted, tortured, and killed anyone who was not 'of the faith' or who committed heresy, or any one of a range of 'crimes' against God. They burned heretics at the stake, they drowned 'witches', they killed Catholics for not being Anglicans.......amongst many other things.

Today, the Christian Religion is far from being perfect, but it has matured to a point where it doesn't generally react in such a savage way. And the crux of the point I was making, Stringsinger, is that, given time, it may well be that Islam will follow the same route, insha'Allah.

Until such time, it would behove Christians like Pastor Jones to be mindful of Christianity's past, and think very hard before insulting a religion which hasn't yet had the time, or the inspiration, to reach a point where it feels secure and mature enough to eschew violent reaction to each and every slight.

Subject: RE: BS: Non Muslim prejudice
From: Green Man
Date: 04 Apr 11 - 09:07 AM

Backwoodsman,

A measured and thoughtful response.

I have to agree with you.

GM

Subject: RE: BS: Non Muslim prejudice
From: Greg F.
Date: 04 Apr 11 - 10:13 AM

Christians like Pastor Jones

NOT.

Subject: RE: BS: Non Muslim prejudice
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Apr 11 - 10:32 AM

Muslims regard it as insulting to suggest that their faith is in any sense backward.

Subject: RE: BS: Non Muslim prejudice
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 04 Apr 11 - 10:51 AM

"Muslims regard it as insulting to suggest that their faith is in any sense backward."

And they are perfectly within their rights.
The purpose of this thread however is, unless I've misread, a discussion on deliberate insults and the reaction to them.

Subject: RE: BS: Non Muslim prejudice
From: Greg F.
Date: 04 Apr 11 - 10:54 AM

Kinda like Christians, Hindus. Seventh Day Adventists, Jains, Rastafarians, Pastafarians, athiests & all the rest, eh, Keith? - you old bigot, you.

Subject: RE: BS: Non Muslim prejudice
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 04 Apr 11 - 10:57 AM

GregF - "Christians like Pastor Jones
NOT."

I have no way of knowing whether he's a Christian in the true sense of the word or not - I've never met the guy. He professes Christianity, but I agree that, on the basis of his widely publicised views and his behaviour in recent times, he doesn't give the appearance of being a particularly good Christian.

However, as I have nothing more to judge him on, and until he proves beyond doubt otherwise, I have to give him the benefit of the doubt.

Subject: RE: BS: Non Muslim prejudice
From: Greg F.
Date: 04 Apr 11 - 11:13 AM

No way to judge? That's a joke, right?

See Matthew 7:16-20.

"Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?

Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.

A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them."

The judgement is in.

Subject: RE: BS: Non Muslim prejudice
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 04 Apr 11 - 11:19 AM

Greg, I haven't been aggressive towards you, I've responded quietly and reasonably. If you wish to have a discourse with me, please check the attitude at the door. Otherwise, you'll have to find another victim, buddy.

Subject: RE: BS: Non Muslim prejudice
From: Silas
Date: 04 Apr 11 - 11:23 AM

"Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire."


Hmmm...

Subject: RE: BS: Non Muslim prejudice
From: Greg F.
Date: 04 Apr 11 - 11:25 AM

Who are you accusing of being aggressive? Me, Saint Matthew or Jesus?

OK, then, under what circumstances would you NOT give him the benefit of the doubt? Would he need to rape, murder & mutilate someone?

Subject: RE: BS: Non Muslim prejudice
From: Silas
Date: 04 Apr 11 - 11:26 AM

FFS you two, this has been a great thread up to now, don't spoil it by this bickering.

Subject: RE: BS: Non Muslim prejudice
From: Greg F.
Date: 04 Apr 11 - 11:28 AM

I'm not "bickering" Silas, I think I raise a valid point about precisely what does one have to do in order to not be given the "benefit of the doubt" re: being a "Christian". Seems the teachings of Christ are pretty clear on the issue.

Subject: RE: BS: Non Muslim prejudice
From: Silas
Date: 04 Apr 11 - 11:34 AM

OK Greg, but Christ is far from clear to me! The quotaion from the bible seems to say that 'bad trees' should be burnt to death, yet elsewhere it is all about forgveness etc....

Subject: RE: BS: Non Muslim prejudice
From: Greg F.
Date: 04 Apr 11 - 11:54 AM

Allegory, Silas.

Subject: RE: BS: Non Muslim prejudice
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 04 Apr 11 - 11:54 AM

Greg, I don't have to take your attitude.
Civility and politeness cost nothing.
I'll discuss.
I won't fight.
If that means you won, laugh it up.
Find another victim.
I've gone.

Subject: RE: BS: Non Muslim prejudice
From: Greg F.
Date: 04 Apr 11 - 12:00 PM

My "attitude", Woods? Being straightfowaard & not mealy-mouthedr isn't an "attitude", its honesty.

My questions were simple enough. You don't care to answer them, don't put it on me. You want to play the "victim"? - knock yourself out.

But either way, no skin off my arse. Don't let the door & etc.

Subject: RE: BS: Non Muslim prejudice
From: Silas
Date: 04 Apr 11 - 12:02 PM

One mans allegory is another mans literal truth (unfortunatly)- hence the reason for this thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Non Muslim prejudice
From: Greg F.
Date: 04 Apr 11 - 12:17 PM

Tree ≠ Person

Subject: RE: BS: Non Muslim prejudice
From: Silas
Date: 04 Apr 11 - 12:22 PM

Allegory, Greg, allegory.

Subject: RE: BS: Non Muslim prejudice
From: Greg F.
Date: 04 Apr 11 - 12:37 PM

Hey, you want to believe that Matthew/Jesus are talking about literally chopping people up, be my guest.

For verily I say unto you that whilst one man's allegory may be another man's literal truth, surely it follows as the night follows the day that one man's delusion may take the place of reality.

Subject: RE: BS: Non Muslim prejudice
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 04 Apr 11 - 01:50 PM

Well he's God. he designed a world where people do quite regularly get chopped up. Perhaps its you Greg that credits JC with a bit more decency than he actually has.

Even God's biggest fans would have to admit that on occasions, he acts like a real shit.

Subject: RE: BS: Non Muslim prejudice
From: Greg F.
Date: 04 Apr 11 - 02:08 PM

As I mentioned elsewhere, see Randy Newman's That's Why I Love Mankind

Subject: RE: BS: Non Muslim prejudice
From: LadyJean
Date: 04 Apr 11 - 11:23 PM

It occurred to me: I wasted two years of my precious youth at a small denominational college in Kentucky. I wasted one evening of those two years at a Christian coffee house, listening to inane music and pious platitudes.
Among those platitudes was the tale of some church in some small town that was converting sinners right and left. "Of course SOMEBODY was going to do something about that." the party telling the story said.
So, one day the congregation found a Bible burning on the church porch.
They saw it as a testimony to the power of God's word, and were rather proud that somebody had been so afraid of the Bible that they burned it.
It's a different take on the situation.

Subject: RE: BS: Non Muslim prejudice
From: Musket
Date: 05 Apr 11 - 04:52 AM

Akenaton wrote
"Christianity, except for a few idiots is a tolerant religion.
Islam, as practiced in North Africa and the Middle East is extremely intolerant, to the point of madness."

If you put, "Islam, except for a few idiots is a tolerant religion" or pointed out that Christianity as practiced in a few churches in The USA is extremely intolerant to the point of madness, I may have accepted your comments at face value.

Methinks "as practiced" is the key to it all. I have friends and colleagues who are Christians, Muslims, Jews, Hindu and like me, totally without any religious belief.

We all get on with each other. At a BBQ my wife and I put on for friends last year, I had my main BBQ and two small ones. One for cooking veggie kebabs, mushrooms etc and other other small one for friends who brought their own lamb and chicken. It cooked both halal and kosher that day.

I have been given a copy of the Q'ran as a present, and we still have my wife's bible she was given by her parents when a child. They sit side by side in a book case. Ok, never opened, never read, but their value is that of a gift. Her brother, who is a devout Christian, (whatever that means) said it was wrong to put them together and we should get rid of The Q'ran.

And that sums up for me why I have no religious conviction whatsoever. Our friend Yasim was not trying to convert us, (how can you convert if you don't belong to a previous club?) but offering something from his culture as a gift to us. If a Christian friend gave us a bible, it would sit in the same place. Never opened, but as a reminder when you glance of the fact we have friends who gave us a gift.

That for me sums up the mainstream of most people who profess a faith. Those on the fringes are using rather than professing their religion. The ignorant masses who are rioting are showing their lack of access to education rather than making a value stance.

Subject: RE: BS: Non Muslim prejudice
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Apr 11 - 05:28 AM

How does a rather odd comment about your bookshelf arrangements by an individual who happens to be your brother-in-law "sum up the mainstream of most people who profess a faith", Ian ?

Subject: RE: BS: Non Muslim prejudice
From: Musket
Date: 05 Apr 11 - 09:22 AM

Rather succinctly.

He feels, I reckon, that because I am white, English etc etc that I am therefore a Christian, even if I don't profess such a claim.

Bible on the bookshelf. Bible in the hotel room. Bishops in The Lords. An alien would surmise that most people in this country are Christians. My experience is that many (and by inference, you could say mainstream) practicing Christians think that deep down most indigenous British people are Christians.

And that is why two countries, UK and Iran, just those if what I hear is right, have people voting laws by dint of their adherence to holy scripture. Some people are comfortable with that. I'm not, that's all.

Subject: RE: BS: Non Muslim prejudice
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Apr 11 - 12:58 PM

Seems a reasonable enough assumption, which would probably be made by a Muslim, a Jew or a Buddhist. In the same way it tends to be assumed that someone from Pakistan is some kind of Muslim. Of course it might well in both cases be a false assumption, but it's not a matter of prejudice, it's a matter of statistical expectation.

Subject: RE: BS: Non Muslim prejudice
From: Musket
Date: 06 Apr 11 - 04:22 AM

And the statistical expectation is, I assume, what The Humanists were complaining about when they challenged the wording of the census as the last one implied 70% (rounded, can't recall the actual figure) of the population were Christian, whereas that encompassed everything from apathy to starkly non religious.

People tended to put Christian meaning common or garden British, it appears. Hence I was challenged recently why I don't go to the local church. My reply was to ask why they don't assume I go to a Mosque, synagogue etc.

So your statistical expectation seems to ring true, although if only it didn't....

Subject: RE: BS: Non Muslim prejudice
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 06 Apr 11 - 05:21 PM

So how would it differ from the statistical expectation that, being English, you probably don't go to church very often?

The guesses we are likely to make about other people, on that kind of basis, is just part of the way we navigate our way through life. I can't see there's any reason for us to get upset about them.