BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Greg F.
Date: 01 Jan 13 - 10:17 AM

Interesting....

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 02 Jan 13 - 05:38 PM

"The Iroquois Confederacy says the federal Conservative government is planning to end Canada's obligations to Indigenous peoples and terminate their distinct status in the country.

Haudenosaunee Grand Council, which represents the still existing Iroquois political structure that predates contact with Europeans, said in a statement that the Stephen Harper government aims to destroy "any semblance of nation-to-nation relationships."

The confederacy said it would also not recognize Bill C-45, the omnibus budget bill the included changes to the Indian Act and withdrew federal oversight over the majority of waterways across the country................."

Iroquois Confederacy says Harper government seeking to 'destroy our collective sovereignty

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 02 Jan 13 - 05:47 PM

>>>Stephen Harper: telephone number in Ottawa is 613-992-4211, but given he is in Calgary you may also want to try his constituency office at 403-253-7990 (the message says the office is closed, but you can still leave a voicemail CALL HARPER AT 1 OF THESE #<<<<


I rang both numbers earlier this evening, left two messages..managed NOT to cry this time, but ranted and raged instead...

Every bit helps, so if you're reading this, why not phone too...?

Be Idle No More!

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Greg F.
Date: 02 Jan 13 - 06:00 PM

If we phone, do we have to cry? Or should we just rant and rave and otherwise act the idiot?

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 02 Jan 13 - 06:04 PM

Well, I know it's hard for you NOT to act the idiot, Greg, but hey, try as hard as you can just to rant and rage...and if NOT acting the idiot for once causes the tears to come, just make sure you keep the phone a little further from your mouth...perhaps placing it up your arse until the tears have stopped, although I do appreciate this may cause MORE tears for a while..

Maybe you should just go shopping instead....

Thank you.....

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Greg F.
Date: 02 Jan 13 - 06:42 PM

I'm sure Mr. Harper was duly impressed by your toddler-style tantrum on the phone, Liz. Keep up the good work.

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 02 Jan 13 - 11:43 PM

Where in the F...n ....H---l ya been the last 48 hours?

Your leader could have faminesd...while you were swilling egg nog.

Your tribe has been proved a farce....and no one gave "a rat's ass in fart hell."

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

When do YOU believe the blights of fish famine will remove her double chin?

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: GUEST,999
Date: 03 Jan 13 - 01:45 AM

Article worth reading unless you have preconceived notions about Indians.

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Jan 13 - 04:58 AM

I must say that I am far more intrigued by the plight of Chief Spence now that I notice that she is on Indefinite Hunger Strike. I wonder how that works? Do they keep bringing you back to life after you have died? Or does it mean that the hunger strike is not actualy life threatening? Maybe that could answer your questions, Garg.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: GUEST,999
Date: 03 Jan 13 - 10:50 AM

Dave, I realize as you mentioned earlier that long treatises are not appealing to you. In few words, the link I gave explains that the 90 million figure that gets tossed around is inaccurate and it also points out that Chief Spence's salary is approximately $71,000/year.

From the sounds of things on this thread many hope that Chief Spence will die and if she doesn't she's a bad person for staying alive. There seems to be a "hurry up and die because you're fucking with my TV time" tone and it's not very nice--that remark is not directed at you.

Isolated communities are expensive in terms of education, food, clothing, electricity, medical care and housing. The price of most things doubles because transportation is so costly.

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Jan 13 - 11:10 AM

Funnily enough, Bruce, I was going to comment that the link you sent was about the best I have seen in any of these debates. Factual, to the point and interesting. The only thing I was unsure about was the relevence between this and getting Harper 'out'. But, putting 2 and 2 togetehr and, hopefuly, getting 4 you are actualy refering to the, to my mind, irrational slagging off of Chief Spence.

I hope you don't think that my comment was having a go at her. I do believe she is a politician when all said and done and I would not trust her with the fluff from my belly-button but no-one deserves to die for a political stance. My point was that the thread opened with the statement that it was an 'indefinate' hunger strike. Something which is impossible and reporting it as such only makes it look like the poster does not know what they are talking about.

BTW - I think if you reveiw some of my past political posts you will see I am of the opinion that there are lies, damned lies and statistics.

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: GUEST,999
Date: 03 Jan 13 - 11:35 AM

Dave, please believe me--that post wasn't aimed at you. And thanks for having read the article. The misrepresentation of Indian peoples in Canada has been long-standing. Justifiably they are upset and basically fed up.

I agree that Chief Spence is a politician--hell, most chiefs in Canada are elected. (The only Chief for Life I know of is in Alberta but there may be others.) She has to be political. That said, Ottawa is very screwed up when it comes to Indians. Bill C-45 is an outrage in many ways. I think Chief Spence moved and spoke too quickly. The racism in this country towards Indians is palpable and very ugly. With no offence meant, Europeans have had a strange view influenced by the Anglican and Catholic churches. I understand that Indians are big business in Germany and more a curiosity to most others, all the way from "they are nothing but savages to what a noble people they are." They're just people, period, some good and some bad in about the same proportions one might find in any other population.

Keep well.

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Greg F.
Date: 03 Jan 13 - 11:42 AM

Dave, not knowing what she's talking about has never got in Liz's way before, and isn't likely to in future.

That, however, is no reflection on the serious issues being discussed.

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Jan 13 - 01:25 PM

No probs, Bruce. Even if I thought it was aimed at me, which I didn't, it was at least phrased in a sensible manner. The article did not surprise me in the slightest. As long as governments have given out money to people, others have said that it is, has been or will be misused. There must be hundreds of thousands of such accusations fly around the world and, in this digital age, it is getting worse.

What does surprise me is the gullibilty of people who believe such accusations and reports are 100% true. On ALL sides. There are some wonderful Canadians and some pretty evil ones. There are those of the indiginous people who are honest and virtous, just are there are ones who are manipulative, lying bastards. There is an equal ammount on both sides but I do hope I am right whan I say the good outweigh the bad in all cases. Unfortunately it seems to be the bad that tend toward rule. It seems to be in their character.

Let us, however never believe them when thay say that one nation is any better than another. That all Germans eat babies. That all Indians scalp men and rape women. Or that all Canadian Conservatives are heartless unfeeling plunderers.

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: gnu
Date: 03 Jan 13 - 05:47 PM

Good article, 9. Thanks.

DtG... "Or that all Canadian Conservatives are heartless unfeeling plunderers." Well, it only really takes one... with good hair.

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Ed T
Date: 03 Jan 13 - 06:33 PM

What I see are many different people involved with a spectrum of complaints/dislikes. IMO, to obtain broad support-success in such initiatives it is best to keep the cause-messages easy to understand, and unwise to lump many related and some unrelated complex issues into one initiative, as this movement does.


Additionally, I am not even sure if the folks involved in the various elements of the initiatives have considered exactly how success would be determined?

Regardless, IMO, it is a downhill battle when ultimations are issued. Few governments react positively (especially in the short-term) under such situations. I suspect doing so undermines their effectiveness to govern - and opens the door to similar actions by other (often some less popular) movements.

Lets agree (for the sake or discussion) that Aboriginal Canadians have been treated poorly and need a better deal. Outside of prejudices, that issue is easy to understand by the population and has a possibility of some form of discussion that would lead to successful resolution (these won't be resolved overnight). I suspect that making a case that additional consultations on impacts to the native community is needed is also one that may be seen as reasonable.

However, it is not reasonable to add to this a challenge that a democratically elected majority government cannot enact federal bills-actions that it sees fit, and good of Canada and generally Canadians, (like it-them and the process or not, it does fall within the parliamentary rules of the Canadian democracy).

I understand that some Canadian folks on here do not personally like this government and some of the legislation involved in this bill - that is their right (they have a chance to change the government in three years or so). But, this alone should not cloud reason. If the causes at hand were not seen as popular (to them), would the approach being used (by others, seen as much less deserving) seem just as alluring?

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: GUEST,999
Date: 03 Jan 13 - 07:00 PM

I think, as I said, Chief Spence has made a mistake. I also think that omnibus bills are not a democratic way to do things, especially in OUR democracy.

That aside, for Indian people, talk has done nothing. So asking people who have waited for over 125 years to have patience because maybe the next election will change something when the last forty-one haven't just doesn't cut it, imo.

I agree that Idle No More is disorganized, but disorganized or not it helps unite the people involved even if it does nothing to rectify the ostensible reasons for its existence.

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Ed T
Date: 03 Jan 13 - 07:23 PM

999

Note that is do not challenge the cause of the native movement in any way (lets get that out of the way) - but I do challenge the wisdom of lumping so many things together and elements of the approach (for example supporting the Spense action).

While many forms of action may unite groups, it does not necessarily gain success (if the definition of success and progress is clear within the group). There have been cases where unwise and unstrategic actions do more harm for unity over the long term.

Regardless of your personal views on the democratic pocess, again, I also feel it is a strategic mistake for the aboriginal community to challenge the right of a democratically elected majority government to pass all that is in these bills. IMO, it would be much wiser to focus on matters directly related to plight of the native community within Canada, not what one personally sees as democratic process or not. IMO, that element (which I see as political) is not winable through this initiative at this time.


Maybe I will be proven wrong. That is just my opinion.

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 03 Jan 13 - 07:42 PM

Thanks for that link, Bruce...I've just put it on the page of a british journalist who's trying to stir up racial hatred against Chief Spence. He should, hopefully, shortly start to choke on his putrid words, as I hope, will anyone else who says such things about her....

45,00+ on the Idle No More page now...growing by the hour..

I've just had some great photos made for me, flags of Brazil, Australia and America with the 3 feathers across them...been loading them up with links and info on Idle No More and Indigenous Issues happening in each respective country..Canadian flag coming over to me tomorrow..

SO many Idle No More 'group' pages out there in Facebook now too, all arranging powwows and meetings..It's all a-buzz in there...great to watch! And what's even more lovely to watch is the Pride starting to grow now, that Connection starting to happen, and with that is coming a confidence which is growing each and every day!

WONDERFUL to see!

Bet the FBI are shit-scared! Ha!!

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: GUEST,999
Date: 03 Jan 13 - 08:07 PM

Thank you, Ed. I do know where you're coming from. And I agree enough that while I think you're wrong, I also think you're right about it being unwise to hold a gun to the head of someone who owns the best snipers in the business.

Liz, the FBI hasn't been scared shitless for decades. It's an organization, and organizations don't scare. Maybe three or four individuals in it are checking retirement options when this all goes wrong but I doubt it's more than that.

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: gnu
Date: 03 Jan 13 - 08:09 PM

Good points, all round.

I was taken aback at the lack of support at the protest I attended in Moncton recently but it was was an odd day to hold it... in the middle of the holidays and shopping days? Whatever.

What really pisses me off is that the feds are fucking over EVERYone to get this pipeline built and nobody can get organized to hold them responsible to do it right. Fact is, it's gonna get built BUT all we, natives and pale, can do now is try to get it done right. If ANYone thinks the Irvings are gonna say 'nevermind', they are mindless. It WILL get built... just ask the Chinese. They got pretty good hair too. And THEY got cash!

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Jan 13 - 08:41 PM

45,00+ (I assume 45,000+?) on the Idle no More pages???

Shakira 58,000,000 +

Coca Cola 56,000.000 +

South Park (Lets move it to Canada eh?) 43,000,000 (Nearly 1000 times more than idle no more if your maths ain't up to much.)

Mr Bean 33,000,000 +

The Beatles (Not been around since 1970 but what the heck) 30,000,000

Patrick Star (Yes, from Sponge Bob Square Pants) 19,000,000 +

Need I go on and what is the point?

Facebook is NONSENSE. It is no indication whatsoever of the support for important issues. Facebook is run by the media moguls and sanctioned by government. It could not survive otherwise. It is often hijacked by irresponsible loonies but that is exactly what it is intended for. While the loonies are active of Facebook, they are doing nothing useful.

How much support and activity does Al Qaeda have on facebook? The Taliban? Any other serious anti-western organization? Very little indeed. Not only is it the tool of the ruling media but it is fast becoming the Marxist opium of the people.

Just think about it.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: GUEST,Lizzie Cornish
Date: 04 Jan 13 - 08:24 AM

OK, Bruce...FBI agents...but I still think they're working overtime at present to try to stay in control...and Ed Woods and Joe Trimbach (and son) are out there on the internet filling it with lies and nastiness about Leonard Peltier, they have many aliases on Youtube and Facebook, plus many sites of their own...Little Shit Stirrers! They're linked up with Paul Demain (spit!) who seems to have cast a spell over Denise, for wherever Paul goes, Denise follows...(Anni Mae's daughter, that is)

Hawaii is joining in now!!

Got myself an Hawaiian flag to sort out later this evening! :0)

I never knew, until this morning, the the British flag is in the left hand corner of the Hawaiian state flag. Dates back to the 1800s, apparently, allegedly due to friendship between the countries (hmmmmm...)

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: GUEST,Lizzie Cornish
Date: 04 Jan 13 - 08:26 AM

Dave, you have NO idea of the power of FB when it's used by the right people in the right way...

Get over it!

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Greg F.
Date: 04 Jan 13 - 09:04 AM

And Liz, of course is the right person using the techno-addicted international narcissist site (Mommy! Mommy! Look at Meeee!!!) the right way.

Bollocks.

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Jan 13 - 11:25 AM

Dave, you have NO idea of the power of FB when it's used by the right people in the right way...

OK - Educate me. Give one major piece of any governments policy that has changed purely due to Facebook. I am not talking just public opinion here either - That existed before Facebook and will last a long time after. I am talking about Facebook being a major political player and going head to head with major policies.

I don't expect one to be pulled out of a hat. I expect it will take you some time and research. Let me know how long it will take you to -

1. Come up with the policy that was changed
2. The Facebook page that changed it and, most importantly,
3. Proof that it was Facebook that achieved it.

Take as long as you like. Just let us know what the deadline is so we know when to check back

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 04 Jan 13 - 01:40 PM

Harper FINALLY agrees to meet First Nations Chiefs!

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 04 Jan 13 - 01:53 PM

"It Is Not The Indians You Should Be Afraid Of' - Facebook photo

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Jan 13 - 02:39 PM

So, those are both examples of the power of Facebook are they? No Kudos to Spence for her hunger strike? Not even sure what that second link is about! What is it?

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Jan 13 - 08:05 AM

Nothing yet then? Can we have an estimate at least please?

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Bob the Postman
Date: 05 Jan 13 - 09:55 AM

I reckon the hole in the ground is a tar sand mine. Google images has many similar pictures.

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 05 Jan 13 - 11:18 AM

I've only dipped into this thread and haven't really got anything to say on either Harper or Spense, but as to the current thread drift, considering the very significant and much discussed impact that social media (including networking sites such as Facebook and Twitter) have had on the face of international politics in recent times, I'm quite surprised at the posts here dismissing them as a tool for change! Plenty of serious articles analysing their role in modern politics out there for those interested in such subjects.

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Jan 13 - 11:21 AM

No offense, but it's Spence.

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 05 Jan 13 - 11:27 AM

Yes Guest, "Spence" it is - I just spotted it a second after I posted! No edit function..

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Ed T
Date: 05 Jan 13 - 11:34 AM

""I'm quite surprised at the posts here dismissing them as a tool for change""


I am not sure that folks on here have in fact done that, at lease in the way you seem to describe. I suspect it was more to do with this specific situation, and wild claims that seem to have been made that do not seem to be backed up in any logical type of evidence (considering other significant factors are also in play).


Social media is surely a growing factor in information sharing. But,unfortunately reliable techniques to measure the effectiveness of this avenue seem in many cases to be deficient, compared to many other traditional information sharing avenues. I suspect this will evolve, but, IMO, it is not there yet in mostv cases.


I often think of how one could measure the effectiveness of dumping leaflets out of airplanes when I consider many of the wild (and unmeasured) claims as to the effectiveness of some social media initiatives.

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: number 6
Date: 05 Jan 13 - 11:46 AM

Very good post Ed T. ... I totally agree ... I think people seem to over estimate the influence social media has... it is good for spreading knowledge, but beyond that it does not provide a spark to get the engine going, so to speak ... but, as you say it may evolve.

The corporate/military oligarchy is firmly dug in protecting the power they have ... they know change is going to come, and it has to come but they are hanging on very tightly to what they have.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Ed T
Date: 05 Jan 13 - 12:29 PM

I am often involved in leading event marking initiatives. Last fall I included facebook and Twitter messaging in promoting a local event.

My analysis, (from onsite surveys) was that the impact of twitter was marginal. We asked staff to list the event on their facebook account, and to also encourage family, friends and neighbours to also do so. The event covered a few days, and we also asked attendees (who liked it) to share the information on their facebook accounts.

The analysis was that the facebook initiative to be worthwhile, as it complemented other marketing initiatives, and reached some segments (youth) that may have been difficult to reach through traditional routes (newspapers, radio, TV, internet posters, and internet and community bulletin boards).

However, this was a local initiative and involved targeted facebook use. If I found that 1 million people in China read about it on social media, it would not have helped much in getting folks to attend our event .

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Jan 13 - 07:23 PM

I mentioned on another thread that I work for a major supermarket chain. Oddly enough the only one, as yet, not to offer an online service but VERY aware of the internet and it's effects. Because of this we propose to enter the online world in a way that will benefit everyone concerned and we have learned considerably from others mistakes.

I am a computer specialist and, as all such in this market sector, am acutely aware of the role of social media and am actively involved in 'spreading our message' through this media. I can assure anyone out there that the sway held in this whole sector is, as yet, tiny. We are very aware it will grow, but also know that it will grow in the way dictated by, not public opinion, but commercial demands. It is just the way of the world.

Anyway, presumably by the lack of response about what major policies Facebook has changed can we assume that the claim about the power of Facebook was grossly overstated?

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: gnu
Date: 05 Jan 13 - 08:05 PM

The Hair just approved the sale of assault weapons by Canucks to Columbia... I assume that applies to all other countries too? Free trade is cool, eh? Even if he signed the deal without the approval of Parliament? We get fresh fruit from them and they get death from us. Great deal.

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 06 Jan 13 - 05:22 AM

YEAH!! :0)

"..Thank you to all who are making this necessity, this dream...a REALITY!..." - Buffy Saint-Marie

Buffy Saint-Marie delivering a message to the Idle No More Movement and Chief Spence

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 06 Jan 13 - 05:33 AM

For the Non-Believers in here who are talking out of their backsides most of the time, ask TESCO why they pulled out of the government's 'Pay People NOTHING to Work For You' scheme a few months back...You'll find it was because of what happened on Facebook one evening, when the word was spread about these Corporate Feckers and what they were doing. Within HOURS their page was covered in THOUSANDS of comments calling for the downfall of their business, people saying they'd NEVER shop there again etc...They could NOT remove the comments fast enough, nor ban people quick enough (myself included). The NEXT DAY they announced they were pulling out of this scheme and Sainsburys also announced they would not be a part of it.

This also took place on Twitter...and if you DON'T believe me, then you can read all about it HERE!

Now, either start your own thread on the power, or lack of, if that's what you TRULY believe, OR, get off my back, because whether you like it or not, I KNOW how to use Facebook FAR BETTER than you!

And I can ASSURE you that the Idle No More movement and the word about Chief Spence has grown and GROWN ****BECAUSE**** of Twitter and Facebook!!

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: gnu
Date: 06 Jan 13 - 07:24 AM

Rail lines blockaded in Kent County, NB, CAN


Aboriginal protesters close off lines as part of Idle No More movement

BY GAIL HARDING

TIMES & TRANSCRIPT STAFF (2013.01.06)

ADAMSVILLE - Native flags, colourful signs and the sounds of drums were on dis­play yesterday along Route 126 in Adamsville.

Members of the Elsipogtog First Nation set up a blockade yesterday in this Kent County community of the Canadian National rail line that links Moncton to Miramichi and northern New Brunswick. The blockade was part of the Idle No More protests being held across Canada. The actions are against the federal government's recently passed Bill C-45.

The blockade ended last night at 7 p.m. A number of attempts were made to contact protest organizers to determine if they would be returning to the site this morning to continue the protest.

The protest was organized by the Sikniktuk Mi'kmaq Rights Coalition based in Elsipogtog. This was the second protest they have held as part of the Idle No More movement. The first protest was a traffic slowdown on Highway 11 near Kouchibouguac days before Christmas.

John Levi was one of about 15 protesters standing in the light snowfall and cold yesterday afternoon.

See PROTESTERS , A10



Article Continued Below

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
See PROTESTERS on Page A10



Protesters blockade CN Rail line between Moncton and northern N.B.

Continued From A1

Levi said the protest was being held in support of Theresa Spence, chief of Attawapiskat First Nation in northern Ontario, who has been on a hunger strike since mid-December. Spence has been asking to meet with Prime Minister Stephen Harper to discuss First Nations treaty rights. It was announced yesterday the two are scheduled to meet in a week, on Jan. 11.

'We are waiting for Harper to meet with Theresa Spence,' Levi said. 'And we are tired of sitting … doing nothing.' As others cut branches and wood for a small fire to keep war m, Levi spoke about his community's involvement in the protests.

'We are staying here for four days, 24 hours,' he said yesterday afternoon. 'There will be someone here at all times.' Despite saying they would remain at the site for four days, the protesters left early yesterday evening.

CN spokesman Jim Feeny said last night that CN Rail engineers inspected the track where the blockade occurred. Once it was confir med safe, 'we began the process of moving normal passenger and freight traffic.' The westbound Via Rail passenger train headed to northern New Brunswick passed through the area shortly after 8 p.m.

Feeny said it is not known if the protesters will return to the site to continue the blockade today.

The protesters said earlier yesterday they would allow the Via Rail passenger train to go through. It was expected to travel on the Newcastle Junction line early yesterday evening on its way to Miramichi.

Instead of allowing the train to go through, Via Rail had planned to put passengers from the fully booked train on charter buses and send them to Miramichi.

When the protestors heard what Via Rail was doing, they pointed out they were still causing an inconven ience to the rail line.

'The only train we are stopping is the CN cargo train,' said Levi.

When asked how they would prevent the train from going through, Levi said he would put his truck across the tracks if he had to.

'If they try to force their way through then we will block the Via one also.' But the likelihood the protesters would see any trains this weekend is slim. Feeny did confir m the company had shut down that section of the line yesterday afternoon, advising Via Rail of the closure.

Feeny said CN will monitor the situation if the blockade continued over the weekend.

'We are presently evaluating the situation.' District 5 RCMP and CN Rail police are monitoring the situation.

The native protesters say they picked the spot because it is traditional native land and Adamsville was the site of a trading post.

'My great-grandfather was here in 1901,' said Levi.

As protesters of all ages came and went from the blockade, some motorists honked in support of those waving signs. As they walked back and forth to stay warm, Noel Augustine and Cathy Levi spoke about their community's support for the Idle No More protests and the support for Spence. Six of their community members are in Ottawa on Victoria Island with Spence. One man, Joseph Jean Sock, joined Spence on her hunger strike on Dec. 18. Cathy Levi described the man as a warrior, a sun dancer who was becoming weaker daily.

The community has raised funds to help with travel costs for those staying in Ottawa.

'We needed to help them (with) food and clothing and to get them back and forth.' Both said they are very committed to the Idle No More movement and the fight against Bill C-45.

'At the end of the day you can't drink your dollar. We still need our water,' said Augustine.

RON WARD/TIMES & TRANSCRIPT

It was not known last night if the blockade will resume today.

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Jan 13 - 07:27 AM

I'll repeat my request. In your own words, Liz, you will not shut me up :-) From my post 4 Jan 11:25 am -

OK - Educate me. Give one major piece of any governments policy that has changed purely due to Facebook. I am not talking just public opinion here either

The only 'proof' offered so far is that Tesco (a major piece of Government policy?) changed it's mind due to public opinion on twitter. (Facebook? Not just public opinion?)

I don't think that is a very well conceived argument I'm afraid. Which I know you will not care about but I think I can be satisfied knowing that, like most of your spurious claims, this one can be dismissed as well.

Now, I will agree wholeheartedly that the supporters of the Idle No More movement have increased due to Facebook and Twitter. Just as the followers of the other pages I quoted earlier have increased. It is inevitable that social media will attract people to popular opinion. It is NOT the other way round I'm afraid. It is easy to do. It costs nothing and it gives people that warm fuzzy feeling that they are helping while all the while nothing gets done. Social media does not create popular opinion; it just reflects it.

It also gets abused by some extremist organisations who are, sadly, popular in certain quarters. They can use it to mimic people as well you know. Have you never noticed that, Liz? Was it not you who ranted and raved against Fakebook when there were numerous pages purporting to be yours?

Now, if you want me to leave your thread I suggest that you start a Facebook page about it. Or contact Max, or Joe or another Mod. Because while nonsense is being talked and sold to us as truth I will not sit idly by and let the manipulators of fact get away with it. Put that in in your peace-pipe and smoke it :-)

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Ed T
Date: 06 Jan 13 - 09:08 AM

There are people who post most often from behind and there are people who choose to post gas ... and there are the very few who are good at both :)

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 06 Jan 13 - 09:41 AM

Dave and Ed, why don't you go and start your own thread on Facebook's importance to the world. This is about Idle NO More, Chief Spence and a Fuckwit named Harper, who I'm seriously starting to think you two may well be related to! You can also nitpick about me as much as you want in there. This is a polite way of saying, For Fuck's Sake Fuck Off..Thank you...


Meanwhile, back at the origins of this thread, here is a Wonderful video of the Idle No More movement! This is a HUMAN RIVER OF DETERMINATION! :0)

Idle No More on the Cornwall Akwesasne International Bridge!

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Ed T
Date: 06 Jan 13 - 10:02 AM

And, then of course we can forgive rude poster-folks, with poor posting attitudes towards fellow 'caters - those who cant understand why others may just see things differently then them.

Why not treat other posters - those with different perspectives than you with respect Liz - not just aboriginal peoples in countries where you do not reside? Agressive and one sided discussions rarely convert anyone in the vast world.

Respect is most often earned and kindness and ubnderstanding in posting is most often reflected back.

Sometimes enemies are merely a figment in one's own mind.

:))

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: GUEST,999
Date: 06 Jan 13 - 10:12 AM

I have some friends who live in Akwesasne and they are often hassled for no good reason when they cross the border--usually by the Americans. I am happy to see Indian people getting POed at last and changing silent resentment into real-life action. It took Chief Spence to get it happening, but at last it is. These actions will inconvenience some people, that's for sure. But I have to ask, "So what?" So few ever gave a damn about Indians anyway. IMO, it's time.

Liz, one lesson I learned way back: do NOT respond to jibes. Let people say what they want because they will anyway.

Facebook has helped bring this situation together, for sure, but usually that site is only good for people with a twenty-second attention span. The real business gets done with e-mails and telephone calls. Facebook has been and continues to be fucked up in regards to security and the disdain with which it treats members. Don't laud its virtues. It has few, imo.

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Ed T
Date: 06 Jan 13 - 10:41 AM

999 - thanks for trying to bring back and civility into the discussion. Silencing people does nothing to convert them.

There is indeed prejudice an Canada and the USA, as with elsewhere, towards aboriginal peoples. However, hopefully we live in a society where these prejudices can be minimized and gradually eliminated, like they have been in many cases.

Aboriginal issues need to be brought to the forefront of issues in these countries,that for the most-part are wealthy societies. It is the only way to move forward, end poverty and to restore the Aboriginal peoples to ther rightful place in these societies and lands.

My recollection is that most causes of this nature benefit from actions that draw attention to the plight of the people involved and it is rare that someone is not inconvenienced in one way or another.
It is rare that change comes from good wishes alone.

There are always extremists involved in in all movements (on both sides), but normally the majority of people fall near the middle on most issues. Fear of actions by the extremists often stimulate those in the middle to discussion to resolve issues. Hopefully, reasonable folks on both sides are prepared to meet this challenge and opportunity and discussions lead towards measures to resolve many of these issues. They likely will not be resolved overnight - but, the route to progress must be made clear to all parties involved - some of these issues have been around for far too long.

(side message to Liz:I have been a promoter of Canadian Aboriginal rights on here for some time (IMO, my posting record would prove that). However, that does not mean I will "be silenced" by you when I disagree with claims made by anyone on current approaches to resolve some of the associated issues, which I feel are "out of whack". Anyone can be right or wrong-open and respectful discussion will lead more toward logic than rude posts or attempts by anyone to silence other posters. So, talk to the hand).

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Greg F.
Date: 06 Jan 13 - 11:26 AM

And I can ASSURE you that the Idle No More movement and the word about Chief Spence has grown and GROWN ****BECAUSE**** of Twitter and Facebook!!

Well, if Saint Liz the Oracle can ASSURE us, that settles it. It MUST be true!

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Jan 13 - 12:29 PM

It sort of goes like this, Liz. Someone says something which someone else disagrees with. That first person says, OK, I accept that there are alternate viewpoints but I still believe that I am right. They then go on to re-visit their case, providing proof or evidence of what they feel that their opinion is more valid than the second persons. The second person than says. Hmmm. Maybe you have something and then either modifies or strengthens their viewpoint with evidence of their own. And so it goes unto all avenues have been explored and all is either in agreement or a respectful disagreement is agreed. At least that is what happens with grown up people in what we term our society.

Now, lets look at the alternative. Liz screams that the world is wrong and everyone can fuck off apart from those who agree with her. Someone else, Ed and I at the moment but it could be Folkiedave or Greg F or any one of dozens of others that say, Steady on Liz. We can see what you are on about but we can't agree with the methods.. Surely all that passion and energy can be better utilised to really help the cause. At which point Liz goes ballistic.... You scum of of the earth are nothing but bullies and stalkers. You have no souls you want nothing but to belittle the entire female of the species. Why don't you go back to singing your fucking boring folk songs with your fingers up your arse and leave real people like me alone. Just fuck off. Fuck off and fuck off and understand that I have every rigth to fucking swear, try to fucking belittle you and fucking browbeat everyone to my point of view without sad little fuckers who know fuck all trying to point out the truth.

I do my best to avoid personal attacks but, sorry mod team, there is only so much crap I will take. Now, Liz, if you would only keep your word from umpteen other threads and ignore me without responding to my posts I would be more than happy. Thanks in advance.

:D tG