BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Ed T
Date: 08 Jan 13 - 03:14 PM

Today commentary from another notableCanadian National affairs columniest:

Meeting with Harper won't settle aboriginal people's problems:


Andrew Coyne

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: GUEST,999
Date: 08 Jan 13 - 03:30 PM

And there's that.

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Ed T
Date: 08 Jan 13 - 03:40 PM

Here is an interesting perspective in the recent audit of the reserve, where Spence is chief and an editorial separating the Audit from the other issues, not related to Spence.


Commentary on the audit of Attawapiskat spending

Attawapiskat audit is no excuse for denying native grievances: Editorial

On today's news radio reports I have heard a number of perspecties.

One is concern about the desperate conditions and low income on the reserve and the high spending and salaries of the political folks (and associated), led by Spence.

Accusations that the government released the audit because of the hunger strike - though I understand it has been in the works for some time.

Comments that Spence is a master politician, and began the hunger strike as a political move to divert attention to the damaging audit (that she knew was coming), which documents very poor practices under her elected term.

Many comments regarding the lack of financial accountability under Spenc's leadership.


IMO, Spence and her elected political council made a bad mistake in not responding or talking with reporters on this matter-which they should have had knowlede of and prepared for.

IMO, the native movement is wise by steering a wide path from this and the Spence administration, and directly focus strategy for the upcoming meeting and developing a "united voice" long unresolved native social, economic and governance issues.

Subject: RE: BS: The Idle No More Movement
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 08 Jan 13 - 05:01 PM

I was hoping for (American) "Idol no More"

Subject: RE: BS: The Idle No More Movement
From: Ed T
Date: 08 Jan 13 - 05:07 PM

IMO, they should be merged-linked into one, as others mostly are linked - regardless of the topic, personalities or personal perspectives.

Should we all be catered to individually, if we want to be, so we can have our own separate thread - about, basically the same thing?

Good questions for the future management approach of Mudcat - which caters to many views from many countries, unique personalities and perspectives.

Subject: RE: BS: The Idle No More Movement
From: Ed T
Date: 08 Jan 13 - 05:13 PM

My first fear in seeing the thread title, was that Eric Idle had passed and it was an Mudcat Obit. I am now relieved that it is not so.

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Charmion
Date: 08 Jan 13 - 06:20 PM

And the lead story on The CBC news this evening is the judicial decision on the status of Metis pele and non-status Indians. It will take a lot of working out but the bottom line is that all aboriginal pele are entitled to the same level of federal benefits.

So now the unseemly struggle begins over how many aboriginal ancestors qualifies an individual as Aboriginal ... The technical expression is "blood quantum."

You heard it here first.

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Ed T
Date: 08 Jan 13 - 06:32 PM

I knew this decisionwas likely coming down this week, and suspected it would go that way,
Charmion.

Good questions are does this water down the aboriginal right, and how will the status folks and gov't deal with it (beyond the appeal, which likely will be upheld)?

In some Cdn locations the decision may be less significant than in others. But, I suspect many folks will be mining their ancestry carefully, in anticipation that it may financially benefit them and their kids....

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: gnu
Date: 08 Jan 13 - 06:42 PM

"Were they negotiated in good faith in the first place? Who knows? What can the Government of Canada do about it today if they weren't?"

SFA

"So now the unseemly struggle begins over how many aboriginal ancestors qualifies an individual as Aboriginal ... The technical expression is "blood quantum.""

It is well defined in law.

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Ed T
Date: 08 Jan 13 - 06:53 PM

Some of my close friends who are status, feel that the non status group waters down their rights and view these folks as more "whites".

Another close friend, who is active in the "warrier society", once said to me:

""while I do not support "non status" rights, I will defend any non-status person if they are harassed by whites because of their first nations blood - blood that we share"".

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: pdq
Date: 08 Jan 13 - 07:02 PM

From Calgary Sun, as linked above:


Calgary Sun Tuesday

by Ezra Levant

January 8 2013 08, 2013 02:54 AM MST

Master media manipulator: Chief Spence knew what she was doing when she pulled her dieting stunt in Ottawa rather than Attawapiskat.


"A new audit of the Attawapiskat Indian reserve was released Monday. It was shocking.

The accounting firm of Deloitte randomly chose 505 financial transactions, between April 1, 2005 and Nov. 30, 2011, to review. They found "81% of files did not have adequate supporting documents and over 60% had no documentation of the reason for payment."

A lot of that money was supposed to go to housing. Attawapiskat is the reserve where some houses have leaky roofs, poor insulation, broken plumbing and are generally unfit for habitation. But Deloitte wrote, "There is no evidence of due diligence in the use of public funds, including the use of funds for housing."

Deloitte can't find where the money went. But maybe the long list of people on the band's rich payroll might know, starting with Theresa Spence, the chief, or her boyfriend, Clayton Kennedy, who just happens to be the town's financial manager. He bills the band $850 a day to manage their finances.

In fact, there are 21 politicians on the band payroll. Plus plenty of full-time staff. But Deloitte didn't find that reassuring: "Attawapiskat First Nation did not provide us with any job descriptions for individuals who are involved in the financial management of funding agreements."

The band doesn't even produce annual budgets. High school football teams have budgets. The band council doesn't keep regular minutes of their meetings, either. Ordinary band members can't find out what their politicians are doing. (Spence, in a news release Monday, dismissed the audit's release as "no more than a distraction from the true issue" and said it was an attempt to "discredit" her.)

So what does this all look like, if you pour $100 million through such a system, as the federal government has done since 2005? Well, here are a few of the findings in Deloitte's sample of 505 transactions.

In September, 2011, at the height of the housing crisis, they spent $4,333 on breakfast supplies. No documentation. No contract, no invoice.

In April of 2011, a "consultant" got paid $303,256. The identity of the consultant is not known. The documentation is incomplete.

What kind of consultant did Attawapiskat need for $303,256 last year? In the middle of a housing crisis? Was it a roofing consultant? Someone to develop a roofing strategy? Is that why they didn't have money to actually hire a roofer?

There are many of these employment contracts — often six figures, always anonymous.

Another common one is "other purchases." One was for $87,150. Auditor's note: "Occurrence questionable." Was anything even bought? Who knows?

Countless money was spent on legal fees. One payment was for $68,910 — lawyer unknown, no supporting documentation. Was it band business? Or maybe someone's divorce?

What about a real estate deal three years ago for

$1.1 million? But it's an Indian reserve. The band already owns all the land. And the vendor is anonymous. There was zero supporting documentation. Was this $1.1 million property deal even in Attawapiskat? Or was it in Florida?

There are a flurry of these property purchases — all secret, no street address or even a general geographic location given.Eighty-one percent of the files the auditor checked are this way. Not 1% or 2%. This isn't an error. It's a way of life.

If the people involved had Italian names and were from the Montreal construction industry, or French-Canadian names from Montreal ad agencies, instead of Indian "consultants" from Attawapiskat, there would be resignations and criminal charges flying.

But it would be racist to ask tough questions of Chief Spence and her boyfriend. And, she's so close to starving herself, it would be mean, too.

Is Stephen Harper really going to meet with her on Friday? Shouldn't the RCMP do so first?"

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 08 Jan 13 - 07:06 PM

Prime minister John Diefenbaker once said something like:
"When hunting big game don't be distracred by rabbit tracks!"
The native people have serious issues that must be worked out and I support them in that, but this protest movement seems to be lacking in focus. Too many rabbit tracks!

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 08 Jan 13 - 07:15 PM

Bruce's link from further up.

The REAL Story of Attawapiskat funding - Not written by Sun News


Article worth reading unless you have preconceived notions about Indians.

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Jan 13 - 07:28 PM

Not sure which Sun is referred to but I think it only fair to give the other side - In this case The Star.

Make up your own minds, folks. Believe nothing you hear, a little of what you read and only half of what you see :-)

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Ed T
Date: 08 Jan 13 - 07:55 PM

Global breaking news

Interesting how politician Spence was so interested in giving the news stations an "audience' and had plent of time for 'em when it was "going all her way".

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Ed T
Date: 08 Jan 13 - 08:24 PM

And, yet another perspective:
Interesting perspective from IPolitics

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: GUEST,Dabit Jij
Date: 08 Jan 13 - 08:41 PM

Thank you Lizzie for the link to The National Post on Attawapiskat funding. I haven't been following the bickering on Mudcat, so I never saw the link to the article before. In fact, I couldn't make sense of C-45 after a First Nations friend gave me a heads up. Then I ran into an Idle No More demonstration. I felt peoples' fear and concern and decided to do better homework.

Chief Spence helped greatly in bringing First Nations issues to the forefront. Small-minded people accuse her, a leader of a community in crisis, of less than perfect double-entry bookkeeping. So what? Not everyone is as perfect as these self-rightous mudcatters. The Canadian government controlled the money. How good are their controls? Crisises create daily problems. Americans misplaced billions in the chaos in Iraq. After the kerfuffle we might also give Chief Spence credit for raising the issues of reporting, equity and transparancy on reserves.

The National Post is as right wing as The Sun group, with less trashy writers. This article is important.

Again, thanks,
David

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Charmion
Date: 08 Jan 13 - 08:42 PM

The article linked above by Ms Cornish is interesting, but deals with only half the story -- and not the more interesting half. It provides evidence that the federal government is over-promising and under-delivering, actually handing over far less money than it has claimed, and that the money handed over must cover a much wider array of soial services than is usually acknowledged.

I, for one, am quite prepared to believe that.

But the documents linked to in that article refer only to the sums paid to the band; they have nothing to say about what the band did with the money. That is what many hundreds of thousands of inquiring minds in this country would like to know.

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Ed T
Date: 08 Jan 13 - 08:57 PM

I hardly feel it is "small minded" to be concerned that so many people live in such poor conditions on this First Nations area, some that reached a housing crisis situation last winter - while so much money - intended to help these folks - is now unaccounted for, and the people responsible don't seem to want to discuss it.

It's also odd that when these same third-world conditions were raised in a dedicated post on Mudcat at the time last winter, few people on mudcat actually participated in the discussion. Most people moved on to other more pressing mudcat threads. Check out the thread-if anyone wants a trip down memory lane.

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: GUEST,Dabit Jij
Date: 08 Jan 13 - 10:03 PM

The National Post article showed unfunding for the housing and survival needs. This would increase the probability of crisis decision making, sloppy bookkeeping, consultants taking advantage, etc. Does that make government underfunding wonderful?

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Charmion
Date: 09 Jan 13 - 06:15 AM

Define "underfunding"' please.

The government is clearly being disingenuous, which is to say economical with the truth to gain a tactical advantage in this dispute.

But Attawapiskat is no shining example of openness and transparency, either -- isn't this the same band that screamed bloody murder when a federal administrator was foisted on it some months ago?

First Nations funding issues have something in common with military procurement: costs are discussed in global terms -- 15 years of maintenance for 65 jet fighters, for example, or building new houses for an entire community living in a very isolated area where all materials must be flown in. None of us on this board -- unless there's a deputy minister hiding out there under a Mudcat monicker -- has the administrative experience to manipulate such concepts knowledgably and explain them lucidly to the rest of us

I believe band administrators have much the same problem: they have to translate the minutiae of daily life in the bush into funding proposals that fit into a government program that calculates its spending in terms of Parliamentary votes.

In the armed forces, there are literally thousands of skilled administrators, logisticians, engineers and planners to handle that challenge, and we still end up with trucks that break, sewage disposal problems on sub-Arctic bases, and budget over-runs. But the military chain of command can't slam its books shut and pull the race card when incompetence and error are found, and the Department of National Defence has no problem firing those who are culpable.

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Ed T
Date: 09 Jan 13 - 06:37 AM

Funding is certainly an issue, as it is everywhere, as there is never enough. Saying the issues are merely because of underfunding is simplistic (though may seem logical from afar) and takes few of the factors "on the ground" into consideration.

But, the lack of trust, accountability, and leadership on all sides seem to be the main factor- as poorly needed infrastructure projucts go nowhere because people have big egos, see things differently, have different approaches and agenda's and dig their heels in.

Here is a news item from CBC, from about a year ago. I believe it may have been also posted last year.
Checking in on Attawapiskat

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Jan 13 - 06:44 AM

There is a lot of that Charmion. I had already said that the link provided by Bruce earlier was no big surprise. Whenever there is government funding there are accusations of mis-management. I wanted to show that there are two sides to every story and, more often than not, neither can be fully believed. It is the easiest path in any argument to shout and scream that anyone who disagrees with you is wrong and the largest weapon in that armoury seems to be the race card.

In an issue as important as human rights it is important to be particularly objective and especially convincing. It is by this method, not by actual or virtual terrorism that Gandhi freed India; that Martin Luther King made the government see sense and that Gerry Adams eventually won the case for the Northern Irish Catholics.

This is another of those important issues and it will only be won by common-sense, reason and meaningful communications. I am sure that the people that matter do realise this and that they will distance themselves from those who seek to derail the process.

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Ed T
Date: 09 Jan 13 - 06:56 AM

I worked with non profit groups for years. During this time, the groups applied for, and received some government monies.

What I can tell you is that accounting for previous monies spent is a big factor in getting new funds - regardless of the group involved. It should be no surprise that if you have "sloppy accounting", or cannot account for where funds have gone (especially large amounts), there is a liklihood that it will impact future funding and flow of monies from any government, regardless of the government leader -that is just the way it has been, and likely will be into the future.

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Ed T
Date: 09 Jan 13 - 07:13 AM

An interesting perspective from today's iPoliticsz:

Building a Crown-First Nations relationship on trust

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Ed T
Date: 09 Jan 13 - 07:19 AM

Another interesting perspective from John Ivison in today's National Post.

Theresa Spence's hunger strike obscures the key First Nations issue: resource re

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Ed T
Date: 09 Jan 13 - 07:44 AM

I provide the text to this interesting perspective, as the Globe and Mail does not seem to link here:


What the Métis decision means for Canada Add to ...
JEFFREY SIMPSON

The Globe and Mail

Wednesday, Jan. 09 2013, The Government of Canada will spend about $250-billion on all of its programs in 2013-2014. Put that in the context of the assertion made by a lawyer representing some of the Indian leaders who are meeting Prime Minister Stephen Harper on Friday.

According to Jeffrey Rath, "indigenous people" are owed "tens if not hundreds of billions of dollars" by the federal government because of lands, resources and other materials taken from these "peoples." The "hundreds of billions" figure is a guess. Could be more, could be less. Who cares when everything is based on the assertion that most of us live on stolen land and, therefore, owe almost whatever money is demanded, plus penance and apologies and, of course, guilt.

To these demands have now been added the claims of the Métis and non-status Indians, who, the Federal Court of Canada ruled on Tuesday (in a judgment that will almost certainly be appealed by the government), had the right to be treated in the same way as Indians.

As there are 400,000 people who identify as Métis, the financial obligations on the federal and provincial governments could be extremely heavy, indeed.

Back when the Charter of Rights was being negotiated in the early 1980s, it was obvious that the status Indian leadership and that of the Métis were superficially polite to each other but deeply distrustful. The Indians did not consider the Métis to be fully Indian (as, indeed, they were not and are not), and the groups' treatment experiences within Canada had been different. The Métis, however, saw similarities where status Indians did not, and were anxious that the status Indians not receive constitutional protection that escaped them.

And now the Federal Court says, in essence, that the two groups were treated sufficiently the same, and were lumped together by governments many decades ago, so they should be considered in a similar fashion today. Which will mean endless negotiations, considerable litigation and, if the Métis are ultimately successful, a huge additional financial obligation on the government that status Indians can only hope doesn't come from what they're receiving. If, indeed, the government owes the Indians "hundreds of billions" of dollars, according to one of their lawyers, what might Métis lawyers demand?

Of course, a large number of Métis have integrated into what we might call mainstream society. So we will now be treated, in ways the judge hinted at but didn't define (how could he?), to procedures by which a Métis person is to be defined.

What definition will be used in terms of what share of ancestry was aboriginal, and how long ago? Who's to say who's a Métis: the claimant, or some adjudicating board? Obviously, it will be important to know when allocating benefits, just as it is for any other government program. A person can't claim to be entitled to a pension without proving age or citizenship with documentation.

It's not a judge's business to worry about public reaction, but this ruling, should it be upheld, is likely to prove highly controversial, to put matters mildly. The Métis who wanted this designation will be delighted; they have fought for their sense of justice in constitutional negotiations and courtrooms for more than three decades.

The judgment, however, lands at a particularly delicate moment, what with the Idle No More movement, demonstrations, the failure by police to enforce court injunctions, an inflamed sense of aboriginal oppression, Chief Theresa Spence's hunger strike, and garbled accounting records all making the news, not to mention the meeting on Friday between some chiefs and the Prime Minister.

For all the obeisance paid to the rituals of multiculturalism, the majority of Canadian society is extremely integrationist – far more so than the United States or Europe – within the two broad streams of French- and English-language groups. Citizens who have joined, or are seeking as immigrants to join, the broad Canadian mainstream are likely to be themselves confused and resentful on being told they owe "hundreds of billions" of dollars, along with restitution and guilt; and that the Métis and non-status Indians have now joined status Indians on an equal footing.

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: GUEST,Dabit Jij
Date: 09 Jan 13 - 09:23 AM

Thanks Charmion. I enjoyed reading your thoughts on logistic difficuulties. I expect it will be a few years before reserves march to military dicipline thought.

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Charmion
Date: 09 Jan 13 - 11:12 AM

Dabit, I'm glad I entertain you but you have missed my point.

I was trying to indicate that it takes knowledge, skill and experience to manage a major project, such as maintaining a fleet of jet fighters or running a full-service community on a flood plain on the coast of Hudson Bay.

Discipline aside, this is work for professionals who understand how their support system functions (and doesn't), and know what in blazes they're doing on both the micro and macro levels. The armed forces prepare people for such assignments with literally years of education, training and work experience in staff appointments of gradually increasing responsibility -- and they still mess up.

First Nations administration? Not so much.

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: gnu
Date: 09 Jan 13 - 03:05 PM

Haven't read a lot of the latest post but I will. I just posted on another thread. I wish they could be combined and the title of this thread changed to include "Idle No More". Here is my post on the other thread...

Subject: RE: BS: Native North Americans protest
From:gnu - PM
Date: 09 Jan 13 - 02:54 PM

BTW... been PMg and email back and forth with a nuber of people on this subject and I would like to post something.

The treaties are not being respected by the Canuck government (Cg). The Chinese are listening to the Natives on that issue. They will meet with with the Natives soon to discuss developement of natural resources.

Let that sink in fer a minute... more for some of you, I expect.

Now, her's something else few seem to understand. The Cg, well, Her Majesty The Queen in Right of Canada, pays ROYALTIES on the natural resources to the Natives (the dollars receieved by the Natives are NOT Canuck taxpayer dollars... they are ROYALTIES from resources and are property taxes which are actually RENT under British common law because NOBODY OWNS LAND under British Common Law EXCEPT the Royals and they don't OWN THE RIGHT TO THE LEASE of it in Canada UNLESS they respect the treaties - ya don't pay yer rent, ya lose yer property. It's BRITISH COMMON LAW. Got that?). Now, if the Royals who signed the treaties don't honour those treaties it equals a breach of contract, a breach of the lease agreement, and the Natives can negotiate with the Chinese to have the Chinese delevope resources in return for royalties.

That's it in a nutshell and I can't be arsed to prrof read that either, even tho not proofing my OP landed me in a state of apology early on in this thread.

As I said to one rather pissed off PMer, it's gonna be VERY interestind and actually fun to watch this shit play out. Only one problem will always exist... the whites have guns and they have used them in the past = he who has the gold rules.
*************************************************************

I am still waiting for a call from a buddy of mine on the march here in town today. I couldn't go because I had to take Mum to an appointment at 30 minutes before the march.

Oh... one other thing I said in PMs and in emails was... I do not support the red man and I do not support the white man... I support the right man. And for good reasons.

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: GUEST,Dabit Jij
Date: 09 Jan 13 - 04:37 PM

I'm not convinced I misssed the point, Charmion. But then, how do you know what you don't see. There's little point in repeating everything you said, else we might end up with argumentative threads on Mudcat. We wouldn't want that.

I even appreciate what you said in this last message because you write specifics and you speak from experience, which few people have. Sounds like you might be useful to northern communities. So thanks again.

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: GUEST,Dabit Jij
Date: 09 Jan 13 - 04:49 PM

I have seen that it takes a high level of knowledge, skill and experience to do jobs like housing maintenance on reserves. Like renovations everywhere, skills need to do the work require more than training. Band management may need better than average quality systems to ensure the work done by new tradespeople in and from their communities succeeds.

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: number 6
Date: 09 Jan 13 - 06:50 PM

Special Rapporteur on Indigenous Issues James Anaya denied visa

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: GUEST,Dabit Jij
Date: 10 Jan 13 - 09:30 AM

The courts don't support harper's scatological smearing

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Charmion
Date: 10 Jan 13 - 10:54 AM

Interesting article, Dabit, although I take issue with the descriptor you chose to characterize Mr Harper's approach to the Attawapiskat issue.

Our Prime Minister can be a real shit when he puts his mind to it, but his smears are not scatological. In fact, his attacks are effective because they carefully target Joe Lunchbox's natural fear for his pocketbook.

Do note the source, however. As an opposition Member of Parliament, the Honourable Carolyn Bennett has a large, toothy dog in this fight. I wonder what her real focus is: the welfare of First Nations communities, or the fortunes of the Liberal Party of Canada?

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: GUEST,Dabit Jij
Date: 10 Jan 13 - 12:42 PM

We all have biases, Charmion. However, the right wing press reported the same court findings. This link happened to be a convenient one that I found on a facebook page this morning, one of the many pages where you can find articulate people, mostly women, concerned about the environment, First Nations' rights, and that wily Attawapiskat woman standing up to vicious gangs of Harpers' henchmen.

Federal courts are likely loaded with Harper appointments from his previous minority governments, so their judgment could be important. Harper would never have done anything to make life worse for people suffering on reserves. He would never play politics with his ego.

And you don't think Harper's office spoon-feeds Anal Levant his Ex-lax?   

INM

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Ed T
Date: 10 Jan 13 - 12:52 PM

Good points Charmion.

I would also add that the ruling related to the federal appoint ment of a third party manager, during the housing crisis last fall, and not the subsequent audit of this First Nations spending which made the news a few days ago. The court ruled the federal action was unreasonable under the terms of the management agreement with this First Nation, for a number of reasons (such as, there was not adaquate information to do this against the agreement, it only made matters worse, and there were other options). We now know that this action only increased tension versus improve the situation.

The article indices the judge was careful not to put the blame on any politician. The CBC article says "the judge said there is no evidence to support the accusations from critics that Prime Minister Stephen Harper, Duncan and other cabinet members acted in a reprehensible way, and said the problem in this case lies not "at the feet of the political masters, but in the hands of the bureaucracy."

There is a link to a more reliable (IMO) CBC article in the posted article. CBC Article on the ruling

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Ed T
Date: 10 Jan 13 - 12:57 PM

BTW,Charmion - that CBC article I just provided was in a link in the first paragraph of the article posted on the liberal politician Carolyn Bennet's article.

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Charmion
Date: 10 Jan 13 - 03:48 PM

I have to confess a bias against politicians -- Liberal, Conservative, New Democrat, Communist, Rhinoceros, you name it. They all bring me out in a rash. It's a weakness, I know. I'll do penance some other day.

I would hate to be a judge in any case that deals with aboriginal rights or First Nations administration these days. There are so many structural problems that the court can't touch that there's just no way to be equitable in any given case without risking a rapid-fire appeal and immediate reversal.

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Ed T
Date: 10 Jan 13 - 04:48 PM

I share that distrust of politicials Charmion, and I include Aboriginal politicians in that distrust (but, surely not the Rynos).

I suspect many, if not all, on this site have a genunine interest in bettering the plight of the people dieectly impacted by centuaries of poor and unjustified treatment. But, it did not happen overnight, regardless of who is pointing fingers at each other today, for whatever political gain.   

However, my hope is it that (with my fingers crossed), and against the odds, real progress is made and the right thing is done to provide a better life and future for our fellow citizens of Canada's First Nations.

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Ed T
Date: 10 Jan 13 - 05:08 PM

Charmion, (sorry, someone came to the door and I pressed submit before I completed my post).

Every once and awhile "a great leader" emerges to solve complex issues. Even though folks may try and "make" or "wish" for one today none is present on any side (if there are, or should be, sides) to do that job.

Hopefully, those who are in the discussions,(who comne from a variety of perspectives and pressures) can put aside their "differences", political desires, and "big egos" to work for better lives and futures for the First Nations Peoples - who deserve a much more in such a plentiful Country. Would they wish for less for themselves and their own children?

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: gnu
Date: 10 Jan 13 - 05:09 PM

That "threat" is very real. War is war. And the Natives can easily enforce that threat if they are not dealt with fairly. Perhaps all the treaty bullshit will finally be dealt with. It's not been "doable" for Natives before. A pipeline allows that and The Hair can't ignore it anymore.

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Ed T
Date: 10 Jan 13 - 05:15 PM

Hopefully, all realize what is at stake from the many associated aspects.

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 11 Jan 13 - 05:42 AM

From Grand Chief Derek Nepinak (video of speech in link below): "We're not requesting the prime minister to agree with us, we're *demanding* that he agree with us, We're demanding he agrees with us because we have the power. We have the true power as in the expression of love for one another, love for the land that we come from and we've got the geography covered. The Idle No More movement across the territories that we call Canada goes from coast to coast to coast, and it has broken through the Medicine Line, into the United States and around the world. The Idle No More movement *has* The People. It has the people and the numbers that can bring the Canadian economy to its' knees.It can stop prime minister Harper's resource development plan and his billion dollar plan to develop resources in our Ancestral Territories. We *have* the Warriors that are standing up now, that are willing to go that far." - Grand Chief Derek Nepinak (Grand Chief of The Assembly of Manitoba Chiefs)

Video of speech:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r9qrL7tVr9U&feature=youtu.be

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Jan 13 - 06:10 AM

I remember both Saddam Hussain saying something similar.

When politicians start to make threats they sound like schoolboys trying to outdo each other. My dad's bigger than your dad. Well, my dad's a policeman. Well...

I wonder if they realise how ridiculous they sound. Instead of threatening to bring Canada to it's knees surely a positive rhetoric would be better all round? As part of what I said earlier - Just look at what was achieved by the IRA once the threats stopped and the negotiations began.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Ed T
Date: 11 Jan 13 - 07:06 AM

National Post Comment-Michael Den Tandt

Are First Nations willing to trade subsidy for self-rule-Tasha Kheiriddin.


Tim Harper-Tim Harper: No excuse for inaction at aboriginal meeting

No Excuse for inaction

Canada First Nations chiefs threaten to boycott meeting with Harper unless he comes to them-National Post
?

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 11 Jan 13 - 08:35 AM

Letter to Harper from Mohawk Nation at Kahnawake

Prime Minister of Canada Stephen Harper
Office of the Prime Minister
80 Wellington
Ottawa On K1A 0A2

January 9, 2013

"The Mohawk Nation at Kahnawà:ke of the Haudenosaunee Six Nations Confederacy, proclaim the following position on behalf the People of the Longhouse, our citizens, and most importantly on behalf of our future generations.

We have watched with great concern the efforts of your current government of Canada to initiate and pass legislation that breaches the long standing nation-to-nation and government-to-government relationship between our two governments.

This action by Canada is a continuation of a centuries old policy and strategy to eliminate Indigenous governments as the original governments with whom the Crown has entered into treaty relations. There is an erroneous assumption on the part of Canada that they have been granted the authority to legislate over our nations and
peoples – nothing could be further from the truth.

This assault on our sovereignty and inherent rights as the original governments of this continent began with the invasion. As a colonial government Canada entered into agreements to steal the lands and resources; and implemented the racist Indian Act and other policies to assimilate Indigenous peoples. This assault was further compounded
by the 1924 revision of the Indian Act that was used to overthrow original Indigenous governments and replace them with band councils.

Be aware that the Band Councils and the AFN do not speak for the Haudenosaunee or any other traditional government situated on this side of Turtle Island.

We view what is now occurring through the actions of Canada to pass the following bills:

Bill C-38 Omnibus Act #1 Environmental Destruction Act
Bill C-45: Omnibus Act #2 Fisheries, Navigable Waters, FN Land Designation
Bill C-27: First Nations Financial Transparency Act
Bill C-428: Indian Act Amendment and Replacement Act

2
Bill S-2: Family Homes on Reserves and Matrimonial Interest or Rights Act
Bill S-6: First Nations Elections Act
Bill S-8: Safe Drinking Water for First Nations
Bill S-212: First Nations Self-Government Recognition Bill as the final steps in their efforts to erase any semblance of Indigenous nationhood and government from this continent.

From the outset of our international relations with colonial governments we have insisted on the principle of non-interference into the internal affairs of either party. This principle is described as a canoe and a ship travelling together on the same river, in the same direction, each holding their own way of government and their citizens. And most importantly, neither party doing anything that would disrupt the ways-of-life contained in those vessels.

After a time our ancestors warned us that we would see a day when the newcomers would try to "throw things into our canoe and try to sink it". That day came with the passage of the original Indian Act and now we see all of the other "things" they are attempting to throw into our canoe.

We have always resisted these attacks on our sovereignty and inherent rights, and even if Canada passes these bills we will resist these efforts.

It needs to be widely understood, that treaties simply regulate relations between nations and governments. That relationship between our Nation and the Crown has always been an on-going attempt to achieve peace between our governments and peoples.

What Canada is doing today does not further the value of peace.

What is and has always been of utmost importance is the preservation and protection of our inherent rights. The sovereignty of a nation and a people is such an inherent right.

Along with sovereignty, comes our inherent right of authority and jurisdiction. All of which we have never relinquished.

We will continue to urge all efforts of the Indigenous people to make the world aware of the dishonesty and deceit of Canada until there is clear change in government policy towards Indigenous Nations."

Signed by the Clan Mothers at Kahnawake:
Kanatishon Glenda Deer (Bear Clan)
Kawennahente Lynne Norton (Wolf Clan)
Kahtehronni Iris Stacey (Turtle Clan)

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: gnu
Date: 11 Jan 13 - 02:55 PM

DtG... "I wonder if they realise how ridiculous they sound."

Not the case. They can deny the pipeline and they can deny the delivery of electricity from the hyrdoelectric dams... one way or another. War is war and these people are fighting for their rights, their way of life and for their lives.

Say it again... both sides have to wake up and do their jobs. The greed and corruption must stop. None of that shit does either side any good. (No, I ain't gonna discuss any of it... research it yourself.)

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Jan 13 - 06:03 PM

Gnu - The point is that numerous people from Hussein to the Taliban have threatened to bring the west to it's knees. None of them have succeeded. Which is why threats sound so ridiculous coming from so called grown-up politicians.

As you say, none of this shit does either side any good. They should learn from how others have moved from a culture of confrontation to one of reconciliation with amazing results. And I don't believe for one minute that if precious power were denied the government and it affected the US as well that such a protest would last long. Do you?

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Get Harper Out - Petition (Canada)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Jan 13 - 06:05 PM

Just tried this and it did nay work. Try again.

200! :-)