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Subject: RE: Jacomo finane? What does that mean? From: Gary T Date: 31 Jul 00 - 06:13 PM Well, Yo, it's not unprecedented for a song to be obviously narrated by the deceased. Compare "The Long Black Veil" (Lefty Frizzell), "The Highwayman" (The Highwaymen), and "El Paso" (Marty Robbins). |
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Subject: RE: Jacomo finane? What does that mean? From: Yo Date: 31 Jul 00 - 06:15 PM And writing that, I think that maybe the first respond to this thread (by Jacob B) wasn't so bad at all. That would fit perfectly in that context. The next line in the song is "and if you ever wasn't ready better get out the way" . So "Get out of our way 'cause here we come" might be a very good translation. Right? Yo. |
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Subject: RE: Jacomo finane? What does that mean? From: Gary T Date: 31 Jul 00 - 07:38 PM Makes sense to me. |
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Subject: RE: Jacomo finane? What does that mean? From: Callie Date: 02 Aug 00 - 05:00 AM Mystery solved guys - and it was right under my nose. A musician friend I saw this arvo told me that Jacomo Finane (or whatever spelling) refers the death of the great Tribal leader John Jolly. Now we can all get some sleep!! Callie
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Subject: RE: Jacomo finane? What does that mean? From: Yo Date: 06 Aug 00 - 11:23 AM Tel me more about John Jolly Cally! Could that be brother John then??? Yo. |
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Subject: RE: Jacomo finane? What does that mean? From: Callie Date: 06 Aug 00 - 11:28 AM Well, according to my musician friend, The 'Jockomo Finane' is in memorium to John Jolly. It has now entered popular usage, but he reckons that's what the meaning is. |
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Subject: Lyr Add: IKO IKO (Crawford) From: Giac Date: 06 Aug 00 - 12:48 PM Obviously this is bugging me. This morning, I turned up this info, and the lyrics attributed to "Jockamo" James Crawford. Iko Iko
"Jockamo" James Crawford, ~1950, New Orleans
My grandma and your grandma
Since the author's nickname is "Jockamo," could it be he is literally talking about "his" grandma? Or, was he called that after he wrote the song? Comes across to me now as a song about a battle hero (Battle of New Orleans or War of 1812, (reference to "king in red") maybe), perhaps as related by two grannies sitting by the fire and getting into a squabble over past "troubles," and extolling a local hero. Giac, who really wants to know-arrrgh! |
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Subject: RE: Jacomo finane? What does that mean? From: Yo Date: 06 Aug 00 - 01:01 PM Me! bwt Callie, did you get my messages right? And Giac, whyle we're at it. What's "Iko Iko"? Or did I mis something here? Yo. |
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Subject: Lyr req:Don't you just know it From: GUEST,Jamesthegirl21 Date: 28 Jan 01 - 07:42 PM I grew up listening to this song on an old unlabeled tape of my step-father's, and just recenly found out that it is by Huey "Piano" Smith and the Clowns. I would love to have the lyrics to it, I have tried to figure them out for years, but some of them are just about impossible for me. ANy help would be appreciated. Thanks, Jamie |
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Subject: RE: Jacomo finane? What does that mean? From: Callie at work Date: 28 Jan 01 - 08:31 PM I have tried to find the words on the net, to no avail. I agree that some of the words are difficult to make out, so I'd be interested in them too! |
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Subject: RE: Jacomo finane? What does that mean? From: Dicho (Frank Staplin) Date: 28 Jan 01 - 09:30 PM The lyrics by Giac pretty well sum up the words that I can find in a few minutes with Yahoo. There is a variation by the Grateful Dead on www3.clearlight.com/~acsa/songfile (many lyrics here). A version, essentially the same as given by Giac, played and sung by the Dead on www.4inprint.com/neil/jukebox/jukea.htm. A version by the Dixie Cups is mentioned also. The site www.cajunfrenchmusic.org and a letter by Dr. John pretty much indicate that "Jocamo" is jester and Iko is unknown. |
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Subject: RE: Jacomo finane? What does that mean? From: Dicho (Frank Staplin) Date: 28 Jan 01 - 09:56 PM Adding to Guest, guitarist contributions, the name of James Crawford's group was Sugar Boy and the Cane Cutters. Dr. John, in his liner notes to "Gumbo", 1972, notes that the Dixie Cups '60's version was a variant. This stuff is coming from a few minutes putting "Iko, Iko" on Yahoo. Dr. John's comments are on the Cyndilauper.com site with notes to her Iko, Iko which apparently was recorded in 3 of her albums. As GUEST, guitarist says, probably much more obtainable from search engines, but I doubt if any more smoke can be blown away. |
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Subject: RE: Jacomo finane? What does that mean? From: LR Mole Date: 29 Jan 01 - 12:16 PM Also (mutters Mole at the end of the parade as usual) the "Second rank": rhythm is similar to the "Bo Diddly beat" from "Who Do You Love?" and "I Want Candy". Van Morrison's new one with Jerry Lee's sister )"You Win Again") has a nice example called "C-a-d-i-l-l-a-c". |
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Subject: RE: Jacomo finane? What does that mean? From: Robo Date: 29 Jan 01 - 11:34 PM All right then, how about your thoughts on another mystic New Orleans staple, "hey pocky way?" Rob-o |
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Subject: RE: Jacomo finane? What does that mean? From: jeanenepratt Date: 13 Aug 01 - 07:59 PM Well, I got the words to "Iko, Iko," and a lot of interesting theories about its origin and meaning. But now I'm wondering about the connection of "John," "Jack," and "James.!" "John" is "Jean" in French and "Giovanni" (or "Gianni," as in Gianni Versace) in Italian. "Jacques" would, presumably, be "Jack" in French and "Giacomo," in Italian, "Yakov," in Hebrew, etc. "James" is "Seamus" in Irish Gaelic, but is it the same name as "Jack" in the Italian and French versions? No urgency to answer this. I'll look it up somewhere, in good time. |
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Subject: RE: Jacomo finane? What does that mean? From: Snuffy Date: 13 Aug 01 - 08:06 PM Jacques in French = James/Seamus/Giacomo |
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Subject: RE: Jacomo finane? What does that mean? From: Genie Date: 15 Aug 01 - 07:45 PM I thought so, Snuffy. Thanks. |
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Subject: RE: Jacomo finane? What does that mean? From: JenEllen Date: 16 Aug 01 - 01:35 AM Stuff from Neville Bros site: "I did a little research on Iko Iko and hear is something I pulled off of Cindy Lauper's web site...it has some more details about the version of Iko Iko that BTR mentioned: ''Following is the "Iko Iko" story, as told by Dr. John in the liner notes to his 1972 album, "Gumbo," in which he covers New Orleans R&B classics. Cyndi was probably a huge fan of this album when it came out: the song was written and recorded back in the early 1950s by a New Orleans singer named James Crawford who worked under the name of Sugar Boy & the Cane Cutters. It was recorded in the 1960s by the Dixie Cups for Jerry Leiber & Mike Stoller's Red Bird label, but the format we're following here is Sugar Boy's original. Also in the group were Professor Longhair on piano, Jake Myles, Big Boy Myles, Irv Bannister on guitar, and Eugene 'Bones' Jones on drums. The group was also known as the Chipaka Shaweez. The song was originally called 'Jockamo,' and it has a lot of Creole patois in it. Jockamo means 'jester' in the old myth. It is Mardi Gras music, and the Shaweez was one of many Mardi Gras groups who dressed up in far out Indian costumes and came on as Indian tribes. The tribes used to hang out on Claiborne Avenue and used to get juiced up there getting ready to perform and 'second line' in their own special style during Mardi Gras. That's dead and gone because there's a freeway where those grounds used to be. The tribes were like social clubs who lived all year for Mardi Gras, getting their costumes together. Many of them were musicians, gamblers, hustlers and pimps.'' and: "think IKO IKO was first done as jockamo-by sugar boy crawford way way back in the day-mid fifties-his grandson davell crawford is an excellent keyboard /organ player around nola at the moment- i also have a version of jockamo by a different title chocko me feendo hey by danny barker and crew in the mid forties-the early version is currently availible on a swinging cd called Jazz ala Creole by the baby dodds trio(the danny barker and krewe stuff is added to the end of the BDT cd)-not sure of language derivation but think it comes from new orleans black injun chants/creole cajun etc.-theres a ripping version of indian red and corrine died on the battlefield which became the wild magnolias wonderful COREY died on the battle field-also a version of tootie ma(is a big fine thing)-now i know where mac rebbenack got all them injun ideas.........peace" more info as gathered...~J |
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Subject: RE: Jacomo finane? What does that mean? From: GUEST Date: 03 Sep 01 - 09:29 PM |
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Subject: RE: Jacomo finane? What does that mean? From: Airto Date: 04 Sep 01 - 04:44 AM I remember hearing an interview with one of the Dixie Cups in which she explained that the Iko Iko song was cleaned up for recording and broadcasting purposes. The unbowdlerised version used the word 'ass' instead of 'flag'. I wish I could remember more. |
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Subject: RE: Jacomo finane? What does that mean? From: GUEST,Doc Rock Date: 04 Sep 01 - 11:51 AM The New Orleans Mardi Gras songs don't have much of anything to do with Cajun-French. Folks are on the right track when they speak in terms of the expression (and other seemingly meaningless words in New Orleans songs) as Afro-Creole. Or, they could be a direct survival of African language that no one understands any longer. |
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Subject: RE: Jacomo finane? What does that mean? From: GUEST,Kayleigh Date: 04 Sep 06 - 08:59 PM Hello boys, here i found this on another site. thought it might help*smile* Steve, The answer comes from the horse's mouth, the man who wrote and recorded the song (originally entitled 'Jock-A-Mo') in 1953, James 'Sugar Boy' Crawford, in a 2002 interview (see http://www.offbeat.com/obfebruary2002/backtalk.html): quote: "It came from two Indian chants that I put music to. 'Iko Iko' was like a victory chant that the Indians would shout. 'Jock-A-Mo' was a chant that was called when the Indians went into battle. I just put them together and made a song out of them. Really it was just like 'Lawdy Miss Clawdy.' That was a phrase everybody in New Orleans used. Lloyd Price just added music to it and it became a hit. I was just trying to write a catchy song. Leonard Chess [president of Chess & Checker Records, then Sugar Boy's label] contacted me and arranged for me to go to Cosimo's [J & M Studio] and record it. That was in [November] 1953." Ken G – April 6, 2004 Reply from Ken Greenwald (Fort Collins, CO - U.S.A.) |
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Subject: RE: Jacomo finane? What does that mean? From: Azizi Date: 05 Sep 06 - 07:44 AM Visit the thread on Cajun Music/Origins of 'Iko Iko' [whose link is also included above] and in particular see this comment from GUEST,Bob Coltman 17 Jan 06 -08:56 AM "a "Jockamo" = a jester, jokester." -snip- Also, visit my website page http://www.cocojams.com/mardi_gras_indian_chants1.htm for other explanations of words & phrases mentioned in Iko Iko and other Mardi Gras Indian songs such as these: "Marraine" (pronounced ma-rane) is a Cajun-French term for "Grandmother". Similarly, "Parraine" for Grandfather, "cousin" (pronounced koo-zan) for cousin, etc. This is why when the Dixie Cups covered the song Iko Iko, they changed the lyric to "Grandma". However, in Spanish, "reina" means queen, and "mi reina" is "my queen." Conflating the French "ma", or "my" and the Spanish "reina", therefore, seems to be the origin for the cajun "Marraine". However it's not much of a stretch to assume it could also mean a consort. In the Italian slang, "goomadre" is a "code" word which on the surface would seem to mean grandmother, but whose hidden meaning is mistress, as in "I'm going to see my goomadre". See also the term "goombah" which is the masculine form of the same word, and which is a phonetic spelling of the Italian word "compare", which is similar to the Spanish "compadre", meaning old (male) friend..." -snip- These explanations were provided to me by NOLA/NYC who shared in a number of email exchanges beginning in 4/3/06, as his name alludes, he was a longtime resident of New Orleans now living in New York City, and has ongoing interactions with New Orleans musicians & other folks who live {or lived} in New Orleans. Of particular interest to me is NOLA/NYC's comment that "There was indeed a Mardi Gras this year,[2006] with Indians, maskers and more, although somewhat smaller than prior to Katrina. But the people there are amazingly resilient and although their spirit has been tested, as you can see, it has not been broken". -snip- I'd love to hear from others who have any knowledge about the Mardi Gras Indian traditions in New Orleans before Hurricane Katrina and afterwards. You can pm me or contact me via the Cocojams website. Azizi |
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Subject: RE: Jacomo finane? What does that mean? From: GUEST,sandi Date: 04 Apr 07 - 10:36 AM Holy Cow! At least there is a real discussion going on here - even if none of us seem to know the meaning of the words. Well, "Brother John is Dead" - I finally decided to play this tune and I will give (with noted uncertainty) this transalation - well, are we sad or glad about Brother John?? |
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Subject: RE: Jacomo finane? What does that mean? From: PoppaGator Date: 04 Apr 07 - 02:53 PM I don't think we can "nail down" any definitive meanings for any of this stuff (unfamiliar words, etc.) that comes from the Mardi Gras Indians. As someone mentioned above, today's Indians themselves no longer know what all the words and phrases mean! This stuff is ancient, and comes from a culture that has had very little (if any) written history, just an oral tradition passed along in a dead language that may or may not have evolved from Creole French patois, long-lost African vocabularies, and maybe a little bit of Italian picked up from New Orleans' Sicilian-immigrant population (a possible, if unlkely, source for a refernce to "Giacomo" the Carnivale jester.) A few random footnotes: Uptown tribes tend to pronounce it "fee-nah-nay," but downtown Indians say "fee-on-day." The two different pronunciations also both appear on commerical recordings. That alone should put some doubt on any attempt at an "accurate" translation! Sugarboy Crawford made the first commercial recording based on a Mardi Gras Indian chant, but by no stretch of the imagination did he "write" Jock-A-Mo/Iko Iko. "My king all dressed in red" is very obviously a Mardi Gras Indian chief, leader of the singer's gang, not a personality from the Battle of New Orleans (!?!) The very wonderful Wild Tchoupitoulas album is the only recording featuring all five of the Meters (including Art and Cyril Neville), just as the group was breaking up, along with all four Neville Brothers, just before they united as a working ensemble. It's a terrific melding of traditional Indian vocal music with polished R&B instrumental accompaniment, but not quite the same thing as the "real" Indian experience you hear on the streets. Recordings by the Wild Magnolias are in the same vein, with really hot modern instrumental accompaniment, and are highly recommended if only because of Big Chief Bo Dollis' incredible lead vocals. Monk Boudreaux, Big Chief of a "rival" tribe (White Eagles, if I'm not mistaken), appears along with Bo on most of the Magnolias albums. Within the last year or two, recordings have been released that reveal the raw, unaccompanied sound of Indians on the street (or at a Sunday-evening barrom "practice") much more accurately than those earlier studio recordings. Sorry I don't have CD titles at my fingertips for reference ~ I know this only from hearing cuts on WWOZ radio, especially during Carnival time. Searching on "Bo Dollis" and/or "Wild Magnolias" and looking for 21st-century issue dates will undoubtedly help. |
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Subject: RE: Jacomo finane? What does that mean? From: GUEST,123 Date: 03 Aug 07 - 12:37 AM now this may be a bit of a stretch of logic but bear with me ... the idea that Jocamo means 'fool' and also John are supported by some old African festival called Jonkonnu which is speculated to be the name of a slave trader ... and the festival is celebrated by those celebrating it to be dressed in rags and wielding wooden weapons ... this also supports the idea that Jock-a-mo is some sort of battle cry ... or some dismissive albeit passively threatening colloquialism ... and if na nais (NA-NAY) means is dead ... on dais (ON-DAY) could be lives in the same vein as viva in Spanish and Iko Iko seems to me more of a proclamation of self ... maybe a tribal moniker ... and if the words are a mish mosh as is the norm with oral tradition ... the song could very easily be a victory song ... a celebration song or freedom ... sung by slaves who killed their slaver ... long live the Iko ... Brother John is dead ... and the possibility that this is an old Creole Folk song likely passed on from grandmother to child over fires and gumbo ... festivals and indulging ... and not an original work by the artist who happened to get the recognition from the record companies ... seems more likely seeing the history of this song and the history of these specific lyrics; which seem to spring up in a few other songs which have similar backgrounds ... commercial and other older folk lyrics which have vague and specifically inspired meanings ... long live the free ... oppression is dead ... listen to the song with this in mind and it makes sense ... |
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Subject: RE: Jacomo finane? What does that mean? From: Azizi Date: 03 Aug 07 - 01:49 AM Guest 123, I'd like to focus on one part of your comment- "old African festival called Jonkonnu which is speculated to be the name of a slave trader"... For what it's worth, I side with those who disagree with the theory that the celebration of Jonkanoo ["Kunering"; "John Canoe"; "Junkanoo" etc} is named after a slave trader. Part of my rejection of this oft repeated theory is that I can't imagine why enslaved people would honor a slave trader by giving his name to a festive occassion. I've compile some comments about Jonkanoo for those who may not be familiar with this celebration. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Junkanoo for a brief summary of the history and customs associated with Jonkanoo. Also, here's a quote about Jonkanoo which I wrote down years ago, but didn't adequately cite its source. I'm sharing this statement here because it includes other theories about the meaning of the word Jonkanoo: ..."The origin of the word Junkanoo is obscure. Some say it comes from the French "L'inconnu" (meaning the unknown), in reference to the masks worn by the paraders; or "junk enoo," the Scottish settlers' reference to the parades, meaning "junk enough;" or "John Canoe," the name of an African tribal chief who demanded the right to celebrate with his people even after being brought to the West Indies in slavery. It is believed that this festival began during the 16th and 17th centuries. The slaves were given a special holiday at Christmas time, when they could leave the plantations to be with their family and celebrate the holidays with African dance, music and costumes. After emancipation, they continued this tradition and, today, Junkanoo has evolved from its simple origins to a formal, more organized parade with sophisticated, intricate costumes, themed music and incentive prizes"... -snip- Also, see an 19th century Jamaican Jonkanoo illustration by Belisario http://hitchcock.itc.virginia.edu/Slavery/details.php?categorynum=12&categoryName=&theRecord=6&recordCount=54 An excerpt of the description of this lithograph follows: "Captioned "Koo, Koo, or Actor Boy," this lithograph depicts an elaborately costumed and masked male dancer surrounded by on-lookers and musicians; he carries a whip and fan, the former used for clearing his path, the latter for cooling himself when his mask is lifted (see image Belisario03, for another "Actor Boy" unmasked). Belisario gives a detailed description of "John-Canoe" festivities and also speculates on the origin of the name. With respect to this illustration, he writes the "band consists of drums and fifes only, to which music the Actor stalks most majestically, oftentimes stopping to afford the by-standers a fair opportunity of gazing at him . . . .The foundation [of his headdress] is an old hat, affording the wearer the means of sustaining the superstructure, to which it is firmly attached, and composed of various colored beads, bugles, spangles, pieces of looking-glass, tinsel, etc. attached to a pasteboard form trimmed round the edges with silver lace, surmounted with feathers. The garments are of muslin, silk, satin, and ribbons." This illustration, as well as others of "John-Canoes," were drawn from life by Belisario in 1836. -snip- In addition, see this excerpt from http://www.bahamasentertainers.com/Paper/slaves.html ..."One tradition that survived and can be traced back as early as the eighteenth century in Jamaica is John Canoe [also referred to as Junkanoo, John Cani, or Jonkannu]. This masked dance would have been an integral part of African ceremonies and processions. (Claypole, Robottom 2001). This practice is said to have been a part of ceremonies conducted by powerful male secret societies of West African Poro and Egungun dancers. We can find traces of these ceremonies even today in places such as Jamaica, Belize, and certain parts of the United States"... -snip- And, lastly as regards to this post, see these comments from an educator's lesson plan for the science fiction book "Midnight Robber", written by the author Nalo Hopkinson, a Caribbean author who weaves elements of Afro-Caribbean folk culture into her book's plots: ..."Jonkanoo was a masquerade celebration and competition during slavery in many Caribbean islands and included an element of defiance and resistance. Many English texts spelled the festival "John Canoe" and were fascinated by the practice of crafting and wearing complicated sculptures, shaped as a ship, sometimes rather house like...[and in the book "Midnight Robber"] Jonkanoo provides a family holiday to commemorate this shared exile and shared heritage – and to keep the historical practices of their ancestors alive..." http://www.clas.ufl.edu/users/rosenber/lit4188fall2003/wk15classoutlines.html |
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Subject: RE: Jacomo finane? What does that mean? From: Paco Rabanne Date: 03 Aug 07 - 03:49 AM So, basically, none of you have any idea what it means then? |
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Subject: RE: Jacomo finane? What does that mean? From: Azizi Date: 03 Aug 07 - 04:02 AM Well, Paco Rabanne, I guess it depends on what your meaning of "meaning" is. I'm learning things as a result of this discussion. Aren't you? |
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Subject: RE: Jacomo finane? What does that mean? From: Paco Rabanne Date: 03 Aug 07 - 04:33 AM Nope! A question was asked by the starter of this thread seven years ago which hasn't been answered. shame really, I wanted to know the meaning. |
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Subject: RE: Jacomo finane? What does that mean? From: Dave the Gnome Date: 03 Aug 07 - 04:40 AM I haven't read through all the thread so apologies if this has been broached before. I do have a certain fascination with etymology and like to see the threads common in various languages. Brother John is of course the English translation of the French kids song 'Frere Jacque'. John, Jacque and Jacomo (or Giacomo) being possibly the same in origin. All I can find for Finane as a name is English - and old at that - so I do not see a connection there so I am, for now, ignoring it. The more recent talk of Jonkanoo and John Canoe I found intersting. It is not a million miles from the sailors name for South Sea Islanders - John Kanaka - Spawning a sea shanty of the same name. OR did the phrase in the shanty exist first? Shanties and plantation work songs have a long and proven connection - Would the African Jonkanoo have become the English John Canoe only to be replaced on board by John Kana or Kanaka? When the sailors were greeted by the Isladers in their canoes would they have become John Canoes as well? Certainly worth a brief speculation I would have thought. Or am I talking bollocks? Should I wait until I am at the bar before bringing it up again? :-) Cheers Dave |
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Subject: RE: Jacomo finane? What does that mean? From: Azizi Date: 03 Aug 07 - 07:56 AM As PoppaGator wrote on 04 Apr 07 - 02:53 PM "I don't think we can "nail down" any definitive meanings for any of this stuff (unfamiliar words, etc.) that comes from the Mardi Gras Indians. As someone mentioned above, today's Indians themselves no longer know what all the words and phrases mean!" -snip- Also, as GUEST,guitarist wrote on 13 Jul 00 - 12:15 PM : "heh, it's a big subject -- people make careers out of question less complicated than this. It's interesting to follow the trail, but don't get hung up on absolute answers, you won't find many. Jockomo fi na ne / Brother John is gone, that's one hypothesis, there are many others -- just pick one you like. :) " -snip- I agree that 1} it's interesting to follow the trail and 2} if you get hung up on absolute answers [in the unfamiliar words that are included in the Mardi Gras Indian songs] you won't find many [absolute answers]. I also agree that 3} "Brother John is gone" is one hypothesis for the meaning of "Jockomo fi na ne" and 4} there are many others and 5} you should just pick one you like. And I also agree with Guest guitarist that you should smile about the whole thing since sometimes being too serious can weigh you down. That said, may I suggest {or re-suggest if it has been mentioned before} that there are literal meanings for words & phrases and there are colloquial meanings for those same words & phrases. And though it certainly is interesting to try to trace a word or phrase back to its/their etymological roots, it's the street meaning that is most important when you're trying to figure out what a word or phrase means to the singer and his/her audience. Members of the Mardi Gras Indians may not know the etymological meaning of the phrase "Jacomo fi na ne", but I think they do know what it means when they say it. I prefer Bob Coltman's [and others] conclusion that a "Jacomo" = a jester, jokester." But I don't think the Mardi Gras Indians mean/meant "You're a jokester" when they say/said "Jacomo fi na ne". And when the Mardi Gras Indians sing/sang "Jacomo fi na ne", I don't think they are/were saying, "John is dead". It makes more sense to me that they are/were saying "Well go f***k yourself". Or maybe they are/were saying "You're a fool". If we go with this meaning, than we'd have to note that "Jacomo fi na ne" is/would have been sung in a real put-down/dissin manner with "fool" {Jacomo} used as a substitute for the latest, most insulting street term that means something like "fool". These are just two theories. I'm sticking with door #1. But all this to say that trying to figure out where this phrase came from is one thing {or multiple things as the phrase might have had multiple origins}. And we can only speculate about those origins. But it's a whole 'nuther thing to ask contemporary Mardi Gras Indians what the phrase means to them, and what they understood folks in the past thought the phrase meant. In addition, it seems to me that folks interested in the "real" meaning of this phrase should look at the phrase in its context. How is/was the phrase used in the the context of songs and in the context of the competitive and often dangerous encounters between one group of Mardi Gras Indian and rival groups or persons who aren't {weren't} associated with their group or any other Mardi Gras Indian group? Does this jibe with the meaning that people who use it give? If so, we have struck gold. So again, I'm sticking with door #1 {btw this "door #1" is a referent to the loong running American tv game show "The Price Is Right" and has nothing to do with the "Jacomo fi na ne" phase itself} But if you don't like what I'm sayin then Jacomo- Naw. I really don't mean that. It's a joke. Get it? "A joke"? Ha Ha. Oh, I'm such a jokester {and when I say "jokester" here, I mean something good, not something insulting}. Get it? No? Okay...moving right along... Instead of the door #1 sentiments in and for my weak attempt at Jacomo witticism, I'd like to end this post echoing what GUEST,sandi said in her 04 Apr 07 - 10:36 AM post: "At least there is a real discussion going on here - even if none of us seem to know the meaning of the words." |
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Subject: RE: Jacomo finane? What does that mean? From: Azizi Date: 03 Aug 07 - 08:28 AM Dave, I don't want you to think that I'm being dismissive of your theory about a possible connection between John Kanaka and John Canoe. It's interesting. Maybe there is a connection. And maybe not. As you know, a word or phrase from one language may sound like and be spelled like a word or phrase in another language but have different etymological roots and meanings. I recall reading somewhere that the word "Jonkannu" {which is pronounced like "John Canoe"} is similar to a West African-Nigerian {?} word. I'm trying to find where I read that. But so far, I've had no luck in finding it. ** Since you found it of interest, here's some more information on Jonkannu {Jonkanoo, Junkanoo, Kunering etc}: MS009 Cronly Family Papers 1888-1925 "These papers contain personal correspondence between Cronly family members and letters and petitions directed to Wilmington and New Hanover County government officials. This personal correspondence falls between the years 1888 and 1907... A letter to D.T. Cronly of Wilmington, NC, from W. D. MacMillan, 3rd, of Chapel Hill, NC, is in reply to Cronly's interest in Wilmington's "Kuners." Dougald MacMillan later wrote "John Kuner," published in the Journal of American Folklore in January, 1926. In a footnote to the article, MacMillan acknowledged Cronly's help in investigating the custom. Kunering was a song and dance performance done in the street by masked and costumed Negro men (Kuners) on Christmas Day. After each performance, the leader passed a hat for contributions. MacMillan's article traced the custom to only a few other coastal towns of North Carolina, and to Nassau, where these men were called "John Canoes." In Wilmington, the custom apparently died out in the 1880's." http://library.uncw.edu/web/collections/manuscript/MS009.html -snip- There appears to be clear connections between Jonkannu and West African customs as well as kunnering and the English custom of wassailing See this excerpt: it may be of interest to read this excerpt about the custom of kunering in North Carolina: "In his work Slave Culture, [Sterling] Stuckey, too, maintains "John Kunuering's" African origins. Yet he elaborates on Linda's, Cassidy's, and Prigg's discussions when he explains the import of the tradition in West Africa as well as the underlying motives behind the slaves' practice of it in the new world. In terms of its African origins Stuckey tells us, "a Nigerian ritual that closely resembles John Kunering," traditionally took place in early summer as a spiritual aid in crop production. Although "Europeans thought the John Kunering to be mainly for children, the ceremony "had a deeper significance" as it was also performed "to honor the ancestors" (Stuckey 68). And where the slave's employment of the tradition is concerned, Stuckey asserts, Knowing that in North America Christmas was the main religious period for the dominant group when families gathered, exchanged gifts, worshipped, and enjoyed the festivities of the occasion, the slaves took advantage of that time to revive African cultural expression along somewhat similar lines, since in Africa exchanges of gifts at reunions of family and friends on holidays were not uncommon, especially on important religious occasions. Exchanges of gifts, such as they were, among slaves were often accompanied by the receipt of gifts from the master and, in the context of John Kunering, "presents" in the form of donations after performances. (69-70) In other words, in practicing the "John Kunering" tradition on Southern plantations, such as Linda's, the slaves were able to mold African customs to accommodate and take advantage of a Euro-American holiday. Such blendings may have also served to satisfy an ancient need--honoring their ancestors and each other--as well as a new one--collecting much needed money and/or food. Linda's account of the slaves' Johnkannaus practice implicitly validates Stuckey's assertions. But she explicitly concurs with Stuckey about the slaves' expecting gifts from their masters following their performances. For as she tells us, "It is seldom that any white man or child refuses to give them a trifle" (119). Yet, she also alludes to another aspect of both African and slave culture, the secular song, when she writes, "For a month previous they are composing songs, which are sung on this occasion, "especially when a white man, or master, refuses to give a donation. "If he does," Linda explains, "they regale his ears with the following song:-- Poor massa, so dey say; Down in de heel, so dey say; Got no money, so dey say; Not one shillin, so dey say; God A'mighty bress you, so dey say. (119) http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m2278/is_1_24/ai_58411663/pg_6 Through Slave Culture's Lens Comes the Abundant Source: Harriet A. Jacobs's Incidents in the Life of a Slave Girl - Critical Essay MELUS, Spring, 1999 by Karen E. Beardslee -snip- And though some may think that we are going far from the Mardi Gras Indian phrase "Jacomo fi na ne", actually we're not because one of the roots of the Mardi Gras Indians was the kunering tradition. See this old text about the kunner parade tradition: http://www.jstor.org/view/00218715/ap020151/02a00030/0 |
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Subject: RE: Jacomo finane? What does that mean? From: Azizi Date: 03 Aug 07 - 03:02 PM It just occurred to me that when I wrote that I had read about an African word that may have been the basis for the word Jonkannu, I was thinking of the dance called "Yonvalu". I can find very little online about Yonvalu. There is apparently a book and video about the dance: http://store.soundstrue.com/vt00764d.html . That book describes Yonvalu as "a voudoun invocation to Damballa, the serpent deity." See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haitian_mythology for this description of vodou- "Vodou (also known as Voodoo) is a religion that first appeared in Haiti. It is a syncretic mixture of Roman Catholic rituals introduced during the French colonial period, and African tribal beliefs, with roots in the Yoruba, Kongo and Dahomey mythology. Another important aspect of the Haitian spiritual life is magic and serpent worship." -snip- That Wikipidia site also provides a listing of the Haitian pantheon. In that pantheon Damballah is described as the father of the loa [gods] and [of] humankind. Btw, "Dahomey" is the former name for the West African nation of Benin. Yoruba is the name of a large ethnic group in Nigeria, and the language spoken by that group. The Yoruba religion was extremely influential in the survival to this day of African religions in the Caribbean {including Haiti and Cuba}, South America {including Brazil} and the USA {including New Orleans, Louisiana}. "Nago" is an old referent for Yorubas. Persons interested in African religions in the Caribbean and South America and related topica will be familiar with that term. Jessie Gaston Mulira's essay "The Case of Vodoo In New Orleans {in "Africanisms In American Culture" Joseph E. Holloway's editor; Indiana University Press, 1990} provides this information about voodoo: "The word voodoo ...is Dahomean in origin and.., means spirit or diety in the Fon language... -snip- In that essay Mulira writes that "In New Orleans the West African voodoo cults merged into one major cult, Damballah, the snake cult, referred to in New Orleans as the Grand Zombi or Vodou" {p. 40}. -snip- Lest we forget New Orleans is ground central for the Mardi Gras Indians. |
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Subject: RE: Jacomo finane? What does that mean? From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 03 Aug 07 - 03:13 PM As Azizi says, it is interesting to speculate on the meaning(s), and she adds much to previous posts. That doesn't mean that a definitive answer can be found. |
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Subject: RE: Jacomo finane? What does that mean? From: Dave the Gnome Date: 03 Aug 07 - 03:28 PM I have never found you dismissive Ms Azizi, far from it. Your posts are some of the most elloquent and best considered in this old mudbox. I guess I will just have to stick to bar room discussions if I want to progress my theory - I know at least half a dozen people who will totaly believe it after a dozen pints! Who knows, in about 20 years it will have escalated to be true and not even snopes will know it:-) I shall follow the rest of the discussion from the sidelines. Cheers Dave |
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Subject: RE: Jacomo finane? What does that mean? From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 03 Aug 07 - 03:33 PM May your glass never be wanting. |
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Subject: RE: Jacomo finane? What does that mean? From: Azizi Date: 03 Aug 07 - 04:01 PM Thanks, Q and Dave. |
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Subject: RE: Jacomo finane? What does that mean? From: Jack Campin Date: 03 Aug 07 - 04:16 PM YAY!!! Azizi's back! Wonderful! I vaguely recall a pop song of c.1970 that had the phrase "do you know Giacomo?", is that related? |
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Subject: RE: Jacomo finane? What does that mean? From: Azizi Date: 03 Sep 07 - 01:33 AM Hey Jack Campin! It's a month later, and I'm just reading your post. Thanks for your warm welcome. I very much appreciate it-then and now. ** As to your question about the phrase "Do you know Giacomo?". Hmmm, that sounds a little like one of them there "rhyming expressions" that are the focus of this thread: thread.cfm?threadid=104417&messages=23 "Folklore: Puddin Tane & Other Rhyming Sayings" [That is, assuming that the name Giacomo is pronounced like Jockomo which means that it rhymes with the English word know. And, isn't the Italian name "Giacomo" the same as the English name "Jack"? So then, Jack, I'm wondering if the saying "Do you know Giacomo?" [which I've never heard of or read before reading your post] could be the source of the colloquial expression "He don't know Jack". But the sentence "He don't know Jack" actually ends with the word "sh*t", though that last word is not stated in what some people call "polite" society. But though it's silent, it's still understood. So if you want to say that a person doesn't know anything at all about anything, then you'd say "He don't know Jack". But given that colloquial expression's definition, I guess it means that "Do you know Giacomo?" and "He don't know Jack" probably don't have the same etymological roots 'cause I'm assuming that "Giacomo" is a man's name, and I think that "Giacomo means "Jack" though, on second or third thought "Giacomo" might mean "James" or "Jacob" and if so my theory about any connection what so between those two expressions is totally wacked. Do you get my drift? No? Well that's okay. Sometimes I don't know Jack. But, any ways Jack Campin, I'm glad to have met you over these internets. :o) Post script: Wanna read a witty entry about the meaning of "Jack Sh*t? Click here. |
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Subject: RE: Jacomo finane? What does that mean? From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 03 Sep 07 - 12:27 PM Giacomo is a common Italian name (James, Jacques in English) related to It. Jacopo and Hebrew Jacob. In Italy in honor of St. James, the apostle. Yes, it is pronounced Ja' como. http://italian.about.com/library/name/blname_giacomo.htm As noted many times before, Kanaka is the Hawai'ian term for man; John Kanaka was commonly given to Hawai'ian crew members and harpooners on sailing ships, and to those who came to Canada in the service of Hudson's Bay Company, etc. Neither name has anything to do with the New Orleans Marti Gras tune. |
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Subject: RE: Jacomo finane? What does that mean? From: PoppaGator Date: 09 Oct 07 - 05:37 PM How did boat repairs sneak into this thread? Well, it got this discussion refreshed, for what it's worth. I scrolled up to see what I had written back in April, and what others had contributed since. I had never thought to interpret the obscure word/phrase "Junkanoo" as "John Canoe," and therefore never imagined a possible connectin between "Junakanoo" (a Mardi Gras Indian and Caribbean expression) and "[John] Kanaka," a Hawiian term referenced in the sea-shanty literature (notably, in the very powerful number "Rollin' Down to Old Maui"). Interesting...Not defnitively or verifiably "true," of course, like everything else under discussion here, but interesting nonetheless. I know I've mentioned this somewhere, sometime in the past ~ maybe even up above in this thread, in which case I apologize ~ but here goes: Years ago, probably in the 1970s, I heard an interview with Mac "Dr. John" Rebennack wherein he swore that the English "translation" of "Jocky Mo Fee Nah Nay" was "Eat My Shorts." I almost peed on myself laughing ~ I had never heard such an expression before. (This was years before the appearance of Bart Simpson.) Of course, when The Simpson later emerged as pop culture icons, I enjoyed the insider knowledge that young Bart seemed to have some kind of awareness of Mardi Gras Indian culture.... |
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Subject: RE: Jacomo finane? What does that mean? From: Azizi Date: 09 Oct 07 - 06:20 PM I had never thought to interpret the obscure word/phrase "Junkanoo" as "John Canoe," and therefore never imagined a possible connectin between "Junakanoo" (a Mardi Gras Indian and Caribbean expression) and "[John] Kanaka," a Hawiian term referenced in the sea-shanty literature (notably, in the very powerful number "Rollin' Down to Old Maui"). Poppagator, But maybe you misinterpreted what I and/or other people wrote in this thread, or I've misinterpreted what you wrote. But there's a difference between a word being used as an expression or a term, and a word being used as a referent for something. In the Caribbean, "Junkanoo" is a referent for a festival, parades, snd cultural events in the Bahamas. "Junkanoo" isn't an expression. Also, "John Kanaka" is a referent for a man who may or may not have been a real person. "John Kanaka" isn't a term. I'm not posting this comment to nit pick. I just feel that these clarifications need to be posted. |
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Subject: RE: Jacomo finane? What does that mean? From: Azizi Date: 09 Oct 07 - 06:25 PM That "But" in the first sentence of my last post is the remains of a cut & paste effort gone wrong. But maybe it's more than that. Maybe it's a sign that I should have kept my butt out of this conversation. Or maybe it's a sign that I need to butt out now. I'm not sayin that I'm superstitous or anything, but... ;o} |
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Subject: RE: Jacomo finane? What does that mean? From: PoppaGator Date: 09 Oct 07 - 06:30 PM Sorry, I wasn't trying to be that precise as to differentiate between a "referent" and an "expression." I thought the word "expression" was sufficiently generic to encompass many shades of meaning, including those two and more. I'll argue back a little about "Kanaka," though (if not about the real-or-imaginary proper name "John Kanaka"). As discussed in other threads if not in this one, the word "Kanaka" was used by American whalers and other 19th century sailors to refer to Hawaiian natives, and its use in various lyrics indicates that some folk used to refer specifically to females, others to males, and still others to the entire population. In that sense, "term" is exactly the word I meant to use. On the other hand, Azizi, I defer to your expertise in regard to "Junkanoo." All in good fun, though ~ right? Pops |
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Subject: RE: Jacomo finane? What does that mean? From: Dave'sWife Date: 09 Oct 07 - 07:02 PM Hmmm - let me throw something else in the mix - New Orleans had quite a large Italian immigrant population around the turn of the centruy. In fact, what we now know as the Mafia has it's roots in The Black Hand which is said to have originated there amnongst Italians running the Grocery and food supply trade Now, I was told as a child, by an aged Italian-American gentlemenwhose family originated in New Orleans that the phrase Giacomo Fi Na Ne was a Black Hand warning about what would happen to you if you squealed about the extortion racket and otherwise strangehold that the Black hand had on the Italian local economy there. He backed this up by telling the mysterious story of the Axe man of New Orleans who chopped up a few local Grocers who didn't pay their protection money. He got the story a little wrong of course, but he said that he heard the phrase uttered both as a brag and as a threat. in other words "Shut up or like Joe - you'll be dead." I know Giacomo isn't Joe in Itlaian, but my informant always said Giacomo could be translated as Joe and he read it as interchangeable with Joe and John. Guiseppe is Joseph in Italian. Still - it is kinda creepy if you read it as Joe since the name Joseph and St. Josehp's featured heavily in the Axeman Story. Giacomo is often translated these days as Jack but I could see where in the past, it might have been misperceived by non-italians as "joe". here's a link in case you want to read it. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Axeman_of_New_Orleans |
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Subject: RE: Jacomo finane? What does that mean? From: Dave'sWife Date: 09 Oct 07 - 07:08 PM To answer my own question - Giacomo does not mean John or Joseph - it is usually translated as James, Jacques or Jacob Giovanni is John Guiseppe is Joseph Still - I can see where non-Italians would get either John or Joe out of Giacomo |
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Subject: RE: Jacomo finane? What does that mean? From: Azizi Date: 09 Oct 07 - 07:14 PM Poppagator, I certainly don't consider myself an expert on the subject of Junkanoo or on any other subject. I've joined in this discussion because it's a subject that is interesting to me. I have shared what I read elsewhere, including some Internet sites whose links I have provided, and I'm learning from everyone else here. I'm serious about this subject because I'm a serious person. But {there goes that word again!}, I do know how to have some good fun too. |
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Subject: RE: Jacomo finane? What does that mean? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 09 Oct 07 - 07:26 PM I noticed somebody way up the thread mention Swahili as one of the elements in patois. No way - Swahili is based on a number of languages spoken in East Africa, including Arabic. African elements in patois would be from West Africa. |
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Subject: RE: Jacomo finane? What does that mean? From: Leadfingers Date: 09 Oct 07 - 08:46 PM 100 - And I agree with Kevin - VERY few East Africans got to America as slaves !! |
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