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BS: What IS a conservative?
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Subject: RE: BS: What IS a conservative? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 23 Dec 02 - 09:03 PM Cats and dogs get along pretty well, unless they've been taught to hate each other or chase each other. Like two legged people in that respect. Unfortunately there are always some two-legged people around who go in for that kind of teaching. "For green grass and clean rivers, children with bright eyes and good color, and people safe from being pushed around — for a few things like these, I find I am pretty ready to think away most other political, economic, and technological advantages." That's a quote from an essay by a man called Paul Goodman, called "Notes of a Neolithic Conservative". Not the kind of Conservative the people who call themselves Conservatives have much in common with, but with a much better entitlement to the term. |
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Subject: RE: BS: What IS a conservative? From: Thomas the Rhymer Date: 23 Dec 02 - 10:45 PM Perchance a conservative estimate? Or would you prefer a conservative guess? OK! Here goes... (looking around kinda cagey-like for a place to take cover) ...A conservative in the US adores privilage, so long as the individal's right to civil liberties never comes up in the conversation... A conservative uses arguements to change the subject, never to examine an issue completely... A conservative prefers the nostalgia of an era misunderstood, to the bright and clear outlines of popular contemporary prosperity... A conservative also offers heartenig advise and praise for the attributes of a closed mind... (leaping into my waiting ultralight and soaring noisily into the night sky fully illuminated of course, by the by-product lights from the huge and powerful military industrial complex)... :^) ttr |
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Subject: RE: BS: What IS a conservative? From: JedMarum Date: 23 Dec 02 - 10:54 PM The closed minds wish to remain closed. So be it. Merry Christmas all! |
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Subject: RE: BS: What IS a conservative? From: GUEST,Fred Miller Date: 24 Dec 02 - 09:38 AM Jed Marum, Merry Christmas! Maybe you're stretching it? accusing people with strong opinions of hate and bigotry, as if conservatives were an oppressed underclass. Hoping to open my mind I've re-read your posts, and all you've offered is to patronise someone with a life-lesson about dogs and cats getting along (without quite getting around to offering your own answer to the question) and accuse others generally of hate and bigotry, and now of having closed minds. Your point is--what? Come, be like us, it's better this way? Unless you'd care to enlighten everyone, offer some perspective--as some others have, maybe you're being a bit silly with that routine. Your above post sounds pretty smug--perhaps you could attempt to address the topic What IS a conservative before you set up to judge everyone else's posts in that tone. |
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Subject: RE: BS: What IS a conservative? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 24 Dec 02 - 09:49 AM I rather took that post as meaning that Jed is satisfied with his own opinions and therefore is OK having a closed mind and has no intention of changing that. Which is really the only truly consistent position for any real conservative (regardless of their formal politics.) |
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Subject: RE: BS: What IS a conservative? From: JedMarum Date: 24 Dec 02 - 10:40 AM I like what Jerry Rasmussen and John Hardly said above. Jerry Rasmussen said that labels are misleading. I believe he implies that people are people and that demonizing another's perspective based upon their political orientation would be a foolish mistake. Hardly gave a pretty clear description of the basic conservative tenets. I voiced my support of his opinions, and refrained from rewriting the same message. My point in this discussion is to say that people who support politically conservative opinion are not the selfish waste products that many here have claimed. We may have a different approach to the way we lead our lives, but we are no less valuable then those with differing perspectives. |
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Subject: RE: BS: What IS a conservative? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 24 Dec 02 - 11:51 AM Some are, some aren't. Genberally speaking I think it's safe to say that most people who make a living in politics at a high level - not all, most - do in fact end up as "selfish waste products". But that's another matter. |
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Subject: RE: BS: What IS a conservative? From: jimmyt Date: 24 Dec 02 - 11:56 AM Mc Grath, Well said... most politicians on both sides of the isle end up as selfish waste products. The vast majority of folks are just doing the best they can regardless of their political persuasion, just my opinion. |
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Subject: RE: BS: What IS a conservative? From: mg Date: 24 Dec 02 - 07:16 PM Here's what I believe in: yes to safe, decent public housing, yes to public transportation, yes to decent medical care for those who can't afford it, through a public health system, not through a total restructuring of what works fairly well for some, yes to strong military, yes to strong police presence, combined with strong community officers for prevention, yes to fairly high taxes to pay for this, with low income paying much less than they do now, and some limits for upper income, and closing of all sorts of idiot loopholes, qualified yes to education..yes to good education, no to some of the idiocy that exists now..we are not using education dollars totally wisely..yes to controls on people's behavior...strong encouragement of marriage and responsible, planned parenthood, strong discouragement of promiscuity, reproduction out of a strong, safe marriage, strong discouragement of any activity that causes taxpayers or general public any expense, inconvenience or danger. No to public funding of obscene "art". Let them pay for it themselves. No to tolerating vandalism, graffiti etc. on public or private property. Criminal justice: swift and sure and proportional to the crime consequences. Try to keep them out of jail and in some sort of contractual system if they are non-violent. Food stamps: mostly for real food, unprocessed. Oats, meat, fruit, vegetables, milk etc. A small percentage for "treats" or processed foods. Yes to help for farmers who grow real food, not tobacco. Yes to hemp farming. More hatchery fish for food. They can breed them smaller or whatever so they don't compete with wild stocks. Yes to government surplus and government canneries for canning or preserving surplus foods. Basic yes to free market system, with controls on people who want to use it for criminal or exploitive purposes. Yes to inspections of factories etc. with protections for workers, including overseas for imports. Strong safety net for those who can not work. For those who could work but don't have work, same safety net, but expectations that they will (a) not make things worse by antisocial behaviors, and (b) training as first line of defense, second line of defense, work programs, yes, cleaning toilets in state buildings, raking leaves, painting schools etc. Gun control: qualified yes. General, law-abiding citizens, trained in safe usage, with guns are a great protection force. Abortion: qualified no. Certainly no for those under-age without parental advising, with protections in place in case of possible abuse. No setting up housekeeping for teens with babies. They need to be in supervised situations, perhaps group homes. We need to really really look at the foster care situation also. Anyway, that is it. I think I am sort of middle of the road...hard-ass liberal as opposed to compassionate conservative. |
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Subject: RE: BS: What IS a conservative? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 24 Dec 02 - 07:34 PM Now that's a good mix from Mary there, and it shows how daft the kind of political packages that get presented to us actually are, with their fixed menus of items that have very little in common, but with the expectation that if you go for one item you have to take the lot. I take it "hard-ass" is the same as "hard-nose"? |
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Subject: RE: BS: What IS a conservative? From: GUEST,fred miller Date: 24 Dec 02 - 08:53 PM Jed Marum, fair enough but I think you're over-reacting--I really don't remember many people saying conservatives are selfish waste products. I do remember hypocrites, once, and maybe some uncalled-for things, but, so it goes. It's an interesting thread. I liked what John Hardly said also, but beg to differ if that's okay. That aside, and though he did draw some connections between some issues, it still seems there isn't any essential reason why a collection of views--however descriptive or apt--seem to collect together. It may collectively describe most conservatives I know pretty well, but what's the reason, the thru-line that seems to connect these issues in a general way? They often are connected by people. It's as interesting a question if applied to liberal views also. Another interesting question is why would a liberal assume a conservative who may be no wealthier than they are, or much less, would be devoted to guarding the interests of the wealthy? Anyway, I toss my opinions in not to offend or keep a closed mind, but because--whatever the core of these conservative views is, I may be missing something, but I sincerely think they are often missing something. I'd like to hear what it is, rather than be accused of envy hate or whatever. I'm still thinking what I already said about conservative economic views, and don't mean offence. It must be like a game. Because one can't really earnestly get into a free competetive market without some of that spirit, you can deal with it, as we all do, but can't really believe in it, otherwise. The idea that the market rewards us just falls short of reality for me--nobody REALLY believes the market rewards the best, or even those who seriously meant to succeed. Everyone knows of accidental successes and undeserved failures, the market by itself doesn't care about anyone's values, and would rather make a pornographic toy of them. And yet people go on about it as if it made sense, all the exceptions are just the big ol' pile of exceptions that somehow prove the rule. Is life like that economic game? Sure, there's no helping that some people are more gifted, more fortunate, that life has risks and harms. But when we confuse our own active human policies with forces of nature, and suppose we can have gross excess because we can truly deserve it, we are seriously kidding ourselves. For me, the only explanation of how intelligent people can keep believing in conservative Free Market mythology is that well, it seems like life, it draws you in to a way of seeing things, like a game. And it also draws one into narcissistic fantasies, which seem to me to explain a lot of behaviors and notions that would otherwise make no sense at all. But I'd like to think I could have an open mind to other views, if I heard them. |
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Subject: RE: BS: What IS a conservative? From: John Hardly Date: 25 Dec 02 - 11:47 AM nice post fred. I must admit that I don't really get the "game" aspect to which you refer. I'm really not trying to be dense (I don't have to try). I've long noticed that our economy is layered in such a manner that many (if not close to a majority) are shielded from the view of how their wealth/income/subsistence (whatever you want to call it) is tied to their productivity. In a way I think that goes a long way toward explaining the close tie between acedemia and a more liberal viewpoint -- that those in acedemia don't exactly do "piece-work". There is a sort of disconnect between productivity and income. Those who have most "arrived" at the pinnacle(sp) of tenure are notoriously/anecdotally the least "productive" in the business of education. Add to that masking, the fact that teaching (as a profession) has long had its income level regulated (not "regulated" in the sense of legally, but regulated as one might refer to a "regulator" on a natural gas line -- it evens out the flow) so that the best/most productive among teachers sacrifice much of their natural market value to "protect" the value of the less capable, less productive. Further, that most in industrial, 1st world countries go to school on a manditory basis -- and therefore often do not make the psychological jump from personal achievement (school's goal) to produtivity (market's goal). Add to this that in the industrial world a very large number of people don't do what they choose or value for a living -- here, even if they do understand the productivity issue, they care little about the product. I notice this factor because it stands in sharp contrast to my personal experience (I work for myself, I produce a product for which I care deeply, I produce almost the entire value (market considerations aside) myself -- that is, my raw materials are an uncommonly small proportion of the end market price, I also happen to be highly in demand (I have been in the top 3 in sales at 5 of the biggest art fairs in the country for about 8 years now, and I am regularly sold out). I also understand that the market is unpredictable, fickle, and often less than moral about what it values (again we get back to the "ethical" issue which, by the way, I appreciate your correction on. I did indeed mean it as you said -- I wasn't avoiding the words "ethical" or "immoral" --I just didn't proof-read)...... ......I have to go help my wife with Christmas cookies so I can't complete my thought!! (and keep on living). What I think would be a more valuable exercise than that done here is to choose one "conservative" poster and one "liberal" poster and have each best describe the other side -- then have people judge from that who understands the other's position better -- and perhaps cut through the miscoceptions we allow aurselves to take comfort in. |
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Subject: RE: BS: What IS a conservative? From: Bill D Date: 25 Dec 02 - 12:46 PM "What I think would be a more valuable exercise than that done here is to choose one "conservative" poster and one "liberal" poster and have each best describe the other side -- then have people judge from that who understands the other's position better -- and perhaps cut through the miscoceptions we allow aurselves to take comfort in." a very interesting exercise! It might indeed shed some light on certains aspects of the discussion......but I am reminded of an old newspaper column by one Sidney J. Harris, in which he often created little 3 level comparisons of viewpoints.....such as... "I have the courage of my convictions!" "YOU are a bit set in your ways." "HE is a hard-headed reactionary" I suspect the exercise might go along those lines. |
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Subject: RE: BS: What IS a conservative? From: John Hardly Date: 25 Dec 02 - 12:53 PM gee Bill, didja have to cut and paste and then NOT edit my typos!! *red-faced* |
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Subject: RE: BS: What IS a conservative? From: John Hardly Date: 25 Dec 02 - 01:01 PM ...oh, and I've had some time to think about it (gotta type fast -- the wife's got the beaters going on my icing now!) and I've got another way of framing the concept... ...here's my challenge/bet. I bet that DougR could type a description of "liberal" (USA-style)philosophy that more liberals here would 1. agree with, 2. not be offended by the characterization, and/or 3. have much less to add for clarification, than any liberal on this discussion forum could similarly type describing a "conservative" (USA-style) philosophy. And of course I am talking about Philosophy -- not politics. good-natured challenge of course. |
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Subject: RE: BS: What IS a conservative? From: Thomas the Rhymer Date: 25 Dec 02 - 01:25 PM You're on John! It'll take me a little while to change caps, but I'll give it a shot... stay tuned for 'liberal' describing 'conservative' after this brief coffee and tune break! Though this will take me away from my practice, ...I need a little respite... :^) ttr |
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Subject: RE: BS: What IS a conservative? From: JedMarum Date: 26 Dec 02 - 12:43 PM the truth is; I am NOT conservative, but I often support Conservative candidates. As one who often finds himself at odds with political and social comments posted on Mudcat, I find that I am keenly aware of 'partisan" disucssions that demonize opposing points-of-view. I often point out those demoniziations, sometimes as a devil's advocate when I do not even support the minority opinion ... because I want us (Mudcatters) to remain aware that people with differing political perspectives are not necessarily demons, idiots, bad guys - or possibly even wrong! I hate smoking, but I'll fight for your right to do it. I don;t own firearms, but I strongly support the second ammendment that I believe ensures your right to own them, I don't have much interest in church but I am glad that many people do. I support so called "Conservative" candidates these days, because, in the USA, these are the guys who believe in personal responsibilities and personal freedoms. This was not the case 30 years ago ... but it is so today, in America. AND I take for granted that the laws and system of justice that we employ in this country, as they are practiced - provide the equity that is required to keep free enterprise free. The criminals at the corporate level that flaunt the laws and cheat in business practice need to be caught, and prosecuted just like the criminals who rob the liquor store ... I DO believe our system is set up to provide this level of equity, and shame on us if we do not make it happen. I believe we do a pretty good job of this in the US (because it is truly in the best interest of the business community at large, as well as all of society if we do). I know there have times in US history when this was NOT true. And I know there were Conservative leaderships in the past who would turn a blind eye - but this is not GENERALLY true today. Anyway - too much rambling ... just a few thoughts. |
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Subject: RE: BS: What IS a conservative? From: GUEST,Fred Miller Date: 27 Dec 02 - 11:14 AM I don't know if I can add much. I think liberal academics depends a lot on what they teach. Engineering isn't a hot-bed of liberals, maybe. I've always heard that Sociology profs are the most liberal profession and farmers the most conservative. I'd guess that a person's basic outlook might be influenced in that a farmer can't go changing lots of variables, because like a long science project, it takes so long to assess what works, and you'd wind up not knowing what you're doing. A sociology professor would probably be looking for his or her work to yield new and perhaps therefore liberal insights into culture and society. I don't know about the disconnect--producing among faculty often is in the form of publishing and achieving in their field. And everywhere I ever went likes to collect bragging rights on their grad's later accomplishments. Productivity itself seems to become the product of education. I think most of the worst things that exist in the world are born of this general feeling that one must produce something. The problem with the productivity driven market is that even a culture-shift "back to basics" results in a bunch of overpriced crap, and as Thoreau neatly put it, people starve for want of luxuries. What I mean by calling the free-market disposition a game is that no matter how you devise it or construe it, it's still just plain wrong that in a land of excess people are hungry. Nothing really controverts that, for me, no amount of blaming the poor or admiring the wealthy. A family in a poorer country may live on $200 dollars a year, but they can live, because they can spend it on what they need, not on costs to cover an accompanying ad campain, stockholder perks, and whatnot. Next year God is introducing a new line of raspberries which will be more "berrilicious". You'll want to call them "razzle-dazzle-berries"! The inventor's reward is another of those myths that has so little basis in fact that it makes it's adherents dangerous to themselves. Hardly any inventions by independent inventors ever make it on to market, much less turn a profit. Yet the belief is so strong that invention scam companies often don't even need to make false contracts, they can tell people they'll get scammed in writing, and people still sign, believing verbal promises. They want to believe. (Narcissistic Fantasy?)I could argue that a conservative disposition is more often than not the natural enemy of the inventor, but it's a lot of generalising to get into. Anyway, patent law doesn't actually protect anybody, unless they can afford patent litigators, which favors big, really really big business. (If you are a certain Mr. Kearns maybe you can afford to undertake it yourself, but at risk of your sanity.) So it's not just law and ethics and morals, it's enforcement of law and ethics and morals, which favors the wealthy to an absurd degree. Non-violent crimes have violent consequences, I think. Last but not least, the idea personal freedom and responsibility is undermined by the legal structure of the corporation. I understand why people need to incorporate, and may myself at some point, but there's something wrong with this notion that a company is a living entity apart from the personal responsibilities of it's decision makers. Lee Iococca was personally responsible for a car that burned people alive (the courts figured $10,000 for pain and suffering in the cost-benefit analysis) and conservatives formed the idea he'd make a good president shortly after. That's the kind of thing I don't get. I'm a social liberal, an inventor--and an artist by the way, John, what's your work I wonder? Glad to hear it's going well, I paint portraits of kids--and I work at ups--I've always had a pretty good idea what the products of my jobs have been, it's important to me to think it through, keep it simple. I find the teamster union thing gets in the way of my being rewarded for my efforts, but on the other hand, without it, I doubt I'd get health insurance for part-time work, and that's the only reason I show up. I still can't figure out how not to be a liberal. By the way, I used to do some art fairs, and it seemed to me that people who made and sold their stuff were the happiest and nicest people I knew. But I became suspicious maybe you just have to act that way at the fairs, because a morose, depressed crafter would be too comical, if you imagine it. Maybe it's just a good way to live, I don't know. |
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Subject: RE: BS: What IS a conservative? From: NicoleC Date: 27 Dec 02 - 12:47 PM Lovely and thoughtful comments, Fred. I think in some way the disconnect you are experiencing is the huge gap between conservative philosophy and conservative politics as they are practiced. For example, businesses SHOULD police *themselves* and behave responsibly toward the community, but in reality they usually don't. A philosophical conservative believes in the first part, but conservative politics refuses to do anything about it when it doesn't turn out that way. (Or refuses to acknowledge a problem.) I don't think what passes for conservative politics in this country really represents what the vast majority of conservative thinking citizens really want, but they'll campaign and pretend like they do. Then again, I don't think what passes for politics of any kind in this country represents what most people think or want. It's easy to blame it on the voters, but really, the choices you have by the time you get to the voting booth are usually so poor that "representation" goes right out the window in favor of rhetoric. |
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Subject: RE: BS: What IS a conservative? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 27 Dec 02 - 01:16 PM You'd think that the people who'd be strongest about hammering dishonest and unethical business practices would be principled "conservatives" to whom such things must surely seem like treachery. But then, in the US, people you'd think wopuld fall into that category go condoning George Bush's record, for example, as a matter of minor misunderstandings and trivial misdemeanours; and the same kind of thing was true when the conservatives in the UK were still within sniffing reach of being in office. And of course the same applies the other way - the people who should be most unforgiving of bent union bosses should be union activists. But then, in my experience, that actually tends to be the case. |
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Subject: RE: BS: What IS a conservative? From: GUEST,Fred Miller Date: 27 Dec 02 - 05:39 PM |
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Subject: RE: BS: What IS a conservative? From: GUEST,Constitutionalist Date: 28 Dec 02 - 12:25 AM A Conservative wouldn't defend the following: Clinton is a well documented serial sexual predator: 1) A 1969 charge by a Eileen Wellstone, 19-year-old English woman who said Clinton assaulted her after she met him at a pub near the Oxford University campus where the future President was a student. A retired State Department employee, who asked not to be identified, confirmed this week that he spoke with the family of the girl and filed a report with his superiors. Clinton admitted having sex with the girl, but claimed it was consensual. The victim's family declined to pursue the case; 2) In 1972, a 22-year-old woman told campus police at Yale University that she was sexually assaulted by Clinton, who was a law student at the college. No charges were filed, but retired campus policemen contacted by Capitol Hill Blue confirmed the incident. The woman, tracked down by Capitol Hill Blue last week, confirmed the incident, but declined to discuss it further; 3) In 1974, a female student at the University of Arkansas complained that then-law professor Bill Clinton tried to prevent her from leaving his office during a conference. She said he groped her and forced his hand inside her blouse. Clinton claimed the student ''came on'' to him and she left the school shortly after the incident. Reached at her home in Texas last week, the former student confirmed the incident, but declined to go public with her account. Several former students at the University have confirmed the incident in confidential interviews and said there were other reports of Clinton attempting to force himself on female students; 4) Juanita Broaddrick, a volunteer in Clinton's gubernatorial campaign, said he raped her in 1978. Mrs. Broaddrick required treatment for a bruised and torn lip, which she said she suffered when Clinton bit her during the rape; 5) From 1978-1980, during Clinton's first term as governor of Arkansas, state troopers assigned to protect the governor reported seven complaints from women who said Clinton forced, or attempted to force, himself on them sexually. One retired state trooper said in an interview that the common joke among those assigned to protect Clinton was "who's next?"; 5) Carolyn Moffet, a legal secretary in Little Rock in 1979, said she met then-governor Clinton at a political fundraiser and shortly thereafter received an invitation to meet the governor in his hotel room. "I was escorted there by a state trooper. When I went in, he was sitting on a couch, wearing only an undershirt. He pointed at his penis and told me to suck it. I told him I didn't even do that for my boyfriend and he got mad, grabbed my head and shoved it into his lap. I pulled away from him and ran out of the room." 7) Elizabeth Ward, the Miss Arkansas who won the Miss America crown in 1982, told friends she was forced by Clinton to have sex with him shortly after she won her state crown. Last year, Ward, who is now married with the last name of Gracen (from her first marriage), told an interviewer she did have sex with Clinton but said it was consensual. Close friends of Ward, however, say she still maintains privately that Clinton forced himself on her. 8) Paula Corbin, an Arkansas state worker, filed a sexual harassment case against Clinton after an encounter in a Little Rock hotel room where the then-governor exposed himself and demanded oral sex. Clinton settled the case with Jones recently with a cash payment. 9) Sandra Allen James, a former Washington, DC, political fundraiser says Presidential candidate-to-be Clinton invited her to his hotel room during a political trip to the nation's capital in 1991, pinned her against the wall and stuck his hand up her dress. She says she screamed loud enough for the Arkansas State Trooper stationed outside the hotel suite to bang on the door and ask if everything was all right, at which point Clinton released her and she fled the room. When she reported the incident to her boss, he advised her to keep her mouth shut if she wanted to keep working. Miss James has since married and left Washington. Reached at her home last week, the former Miss James said she later learned that other women suffered the same fate at Clinton's hands when he was in Washington during his Presidential run. 11) Christy Zercher, a flight attendant on Clinton's leased campaign plane in 1992, says Presidential candidate Clinton exposed himself to her, grabbed her breasts and made explicit remarks about oral sex. A video shot on board the plane by ABC News shows an obviously inebriated Clinton with his hand between another young flight attendant's legs. Zercher said later in an interview that White House attorney Bruce Lindsey tried to pressure her into not going public about the assault. 12) Kathleen Willey, a White House volunteer, reported that Clinton grabbed her, fondled her breast and pressed her hand against his genitals during an Oval Office meeting in November, 1993. Willey, who told her story in a 60 Minutes interview, became a target of a White House-directed smear campaign after she went public. |
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Subject: RE: BS: What IS a conservative? From: GUEST,Fred Miller Date: 28 Dec 02 - 08:23 AM Whoops, my post didn't take. I was hoping somebody will post a characterization of liberals. In a sociology class I had long ago, I studied like crazy and got A's, the big conservative wrestler who sat next to me didn't study at all, showed up just enough, and said "well, this guy's a radical, so I pick the radical-sounding answers. I'm getting B's" he shrugged. A startling new sociological study indicates that in many societal conditions in which ...[it ain't broke]... the optimal collective paradigmn of our cultural response should--according to a scource who in this smarmy high falutin' voice said ..."actually"... be to "don't fix it". These findings, though provoking considerable controversy, are meeting with guarded support in some circles. |
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Subject: RE: BS: What IS a conservative? From: GUEST,Constitutionalist Date: 28 Dec 02 - 09:53 PM Nor this: Here are the facts: * Bill Clinton registers for the draft on September 08, 1964, accepting all contractual conditions of registering for the draft. Given Selective Service Number 3 26 46 228. * Bill Clinton classified 2-S on November 17, 1964. * Bill Clinton reclassified 1-A on March 20, 1968.. * Bill Clinton ordered to report for induction on July 28, 1969. * Bill Clinton dishonors order to report and is not inducted into the military. * Bill Clinton reclassified 1-D after enlisting in the United States Army Reserves on August 07,1969 under authority of Col.E.Holmes. Clinton signs enlistment papers and takes oath of enlistment. * Bill Clinton fails to report to his duty station at the University of Arkansas ROTC, September 1969. * Bill Clinton reclassified 1-A on October 30, 1969, as enlistment with Army Reserves is revoked by Colonel E. Holmes and Clinton now AWOL and subject to arrest under Public Law 90-40 (2)(a) 'registrant who has failed to report...remain liable for induction'. * Bill Clinton's birth date lottery number is 311, drawn december 1, 1969, but anyone who has already been ordered to report for induction, is INELIGIBLE! * Bill Clinton runs for Congress (1974), while a fugitive from justice under Public Law 90-40. * Bill Clinton runs for Arkansas Attorney General (1976), while a fugitive from justice. * Bill Clinton receives pardon on January 21, 1977 from Carter. * Bill Clinton FIRST PARDONED FEDERAL FELON ever to serve as President. All these facts come from Freedom of Information requests, public laws, and various books that have been published, and have not been refuted by Clinton. |
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Subject: RE: BS: What IS a conservative? From: Don Firth Date: 28 Dec 02 - 09:58 PM Looks to me like someone's beating a dead horse, here. . . . Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: What IS a conservative? From: GUEST,Fred Miller Date: 29 Dec 02 - 09:44 AM Seems like you could start a Why Clinton is Scum thread. As a liberal who never liked Clinton, and never voted for Clinton--he always seemed to me a conservative who could talk some liberal talk, in an Oprah sort of way, I'll still apologise for him and all the harm he did. Anyway, our long national nightmare of peace and prosperity is finally ending. |
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Subject: RE: BS: What IS a conservative? From: Ebbie Date: 29 Dec 02 - 01:22 PM Right. At last we can go back to the normal way of living: deficit spending, reduced savings, lost jobs, uncertain markets, hating people and making war. And just think! It took only two years to get here. gulp |
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Subject: RE: BS: What IS a conservative? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 29 Dec 02 - 01:37 PM The basic test of an honest person in these matters is perhaps that rather than try to divert attention to the failings of some antagonist, they concentrate their attention closer to their own ideological home. We need to pick on someone on our own side. In other words, Matthew 7 5 - "First take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother's." |
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Subject: RE: BS: What IS a conservative? From: Benjamin Date: 30 Dec 02 - 09:30 PM The way over simplified account I've been told is that when one is left completely up to there own, a liberal believes that one will make the right decision, a conservative believes that one will not make the right decision. I don't believe that these discriptions accurately protray either party to be honest. I personally believe that people might start getting things right when we ditch our parties and start to think for ourselves. Not many people have agreed with that statement however. |
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Subject: RE: BS: What IS a conservative? From: Benjamin Date: 30 Dec 02 - 09:39 PM Oh and Toadfrog, Applachian Spring was written by Aaron Copland |
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Subject: RE: BS: What IS a conservative? From: GUEST Date: 30 Dec 02 - 10:41 PM That works pretty well, Benjamin. How about this modification: A liberal thinks that the well-to-do will fail to do the right thing, and the less fortunate will do the right thing, while conservatives take the opposite view? |
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Subject: RE: BS: What IS a conservative? From: Cllr Date: 31 Dec 02 - 09:01 AM I do not believe in the vilification of people involved in politics, for obvious reasons, I have a great dislike of fundamentalists of ANY persuasion. Too often people make the assumption that by identifying oneself with a particular idealogy/belief that they have taken that belief to an extreme or agree with the entire philosophy. One should remember that on which ever side of an argument one stands, that there are good and bad people - to believe otherwise is to be a bigot.Cllr |
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Subject: RE: BS: What IS a conservative? From: GUEST,Frank Hamilton Date: 31 Dec 02 - 03:54 PM Re: Clinton Bashing, it might be that Clinton was a target of a well-organized smear campaign which is active in perpetuity. John F. Kennedy was a well-known womanizer, probably worse than Clinton and it's odd he wasn't given the same attention by the right-wing smearers. I would find it difficult to trust much information by the so-called female "victims" and at the same time the door could be opened for the possiblity that these violations might have ocurred. But each allegation deserves an appropriate hearing in a court of law and not a foregone conclusion on the part of those who would judge him categorically. I think a negative case could be done National Enquirer style for each president of the U.S. showing deficiencies in character or morality. The world of politics is a strange place. Frank |
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Subject: RE: BS: What IS a conservative? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 31 Dec 02 - 04:39 PM Cllr - that's why I was very careful in qualifying what I said back there : I think it's safe to say that most people who make a living in politics at a high level - not all, most - do in fact end up as "selfish waste products". I think heading up into the high spots in politics does seem to wash out the humanity from an awful lot of people who probably started up being fair enough people, or better. And I'm sure that a lot of the blame for that lies with the way we respond to them as members of the public - penalising the wrong things and rewarding the wrong things too. And that applies irrespective of political affiliation. |
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Subject: RE: BS: What IS a conservative? From: DougR Date: 31 Dec 02 - 05:15 PM Frank: I suspect the reason JFK didn't come under the gun for his pecadillos, like Clinton did, is most people didn't know about them until long after he was dead. The press was very shy about reporting the antics of presidents until Watergate. I would wager that a majority of the people in America didn't realize FDR was confined to a wheelchair for the same reason. John Hardley: I'm going to get on the liberal assignment but not until after the New Year. DougR |
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Subject: RE: BS: What IS a conservative? From: Stephen L. Rich Date: 01 Jan 03 - 01:41 AM The difference between conservatives and liberal, as far as the practical result of either camp's policies on the general public, is nearly non-existent. That result, generally speaking, tends to be the politcal equivalent of anal rape. The only difference is in the attitude either brings to it. Conservatives will perform the act as amatter of course, feeling that it is their God given right to do so. Liberals will do exactly the same thing, but will try to covince you that they are doing it because they love you. Stephen Lee. |
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Subject: RE: BS: What IS a conservative? From: DougR Date: 02 Jan 03 - 01:16 AM Stephen: I fear you have a rather cynical viewpoint on life. 'Tis so? DougR |
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Subject: RE: BS: What IS a conservative? From: Stephen L. Rich Date: 02 Jan 03 - 11:49 AM Nonsense. I haven't been THAT optimistic in thirty years! It's simply that I do not trust politics to achieve constructive goals (social justice, etc.). These are things which we must strive to achieve without their interference. Stephen Lee |
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Subject: RE: BS: What IS a conservative? From: Stephen L. Rich Date: 02 Jan 03 - 11:55 AM I should add that nobody has or is likely to be able to convince me that such goals are not achievable, or that individuals, by themselves and striving with others,cannot achieve these goals apart from government or politics. Things like racial harmony can ONLY be achieved one soul at a time. Stephen Lee |