BS: The suffering Palestinians

Subject: RE: BS: The suffering Palestinians
From: Bobert
Date: 26 May 03 - 10:12 PM

Too many folks with a "yeah but what about what hapenned back in___________ when __________ tied to_________________.

Bottom line, the US has always had it in their power (well, maybe not as much today with Bush pissing off so many folks around the world...) to *force* a peaceful solution in the Middle East. Until it gets serious and makes it clear to *all* parties that it is, nothing is going to happen! Guarenteed.

Put in my hands, without any veto powers from the president and I'd have not only a framework, but have the land divied up with a DMZ and an aid package to get Palestine's econmomy jump started. It ain't rocket science. Geeee. Some folks gotta get simple stuff all confuzerated.

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: The suffering Palestinians
From: Teribus
Date: 27 May 03 - 02:48 AM

Bobert,

"the US has always had it in their power to *force* a peaceful solution in the Middle East. Until it gets serious and makes it clear to *all* parties that it is, nothing is going to happen! Guarenteed."

There is absolutely no way any lasting peace settlement can be *forced* on any side in any conflict situation. That idea is totally ludicrous. A lasting peace settlement will only ever come about when the people (in this particular case the Israelis and Palestinians) come to the inevitable conclusion that they have to share the same lump of this planet, irrespective of past history, and that it is for the greater benefit of all that they do so in a peaceful manner. It is not entirely in the power of the United States of America to provide a solution, true, they can exert a certain amount of pressure on the Israelis, but that on its own is not enough. Equally true, they could attempt to "buy off" neighbouring Arab Governments, but that would not necessarily have the desired effect. On the other side of the equation, supporting Arab states can do two things, cut off funding for Palestinian terrorist groups and offer citizenship to the Palestinian refugees who have been living within their borders for the last 55 years. If the latter is considered totally unacceptable then right of return can only be negotiated if those Arab states who expelled their Jewish minorities in 1967 grant right of return to the 500,000 people they foricibly deported - personally after all these years I doubt very much if they would have many takers.

"Put in my hands, without any veto powers from the president and I'd have not only a framework, but have the land divied up with a DMZ and an aid package to get Palestine's econmomy jump started. It ain't rocket science."

This, I take it, is your "Emergency Middle East Peace Summit" - where you invite, cajoal and kidnap the leaders/spokesmen of all the various countries and factions involved and imprison them until they all reach an agreement. An agreement reached under such circumstances Bobert would not be worth the paper it was written on and would hold for about as long as a snowball would survive in hell.

No Bobert, "It ain't rocket science" - it's a damn sight more complicated than that. It only appears to be simple to you because you refuse to acknowledge the complexities. Who would enforce and pay for your DMZ Bobert?

Subject: RE: BS: The suffering Palestinians
From: Bobert
Date: 27 May 03 - 08:42 AM

Well, T-Bird, you like to make everything complicated. Hey, it ain't. You got two folks that got bad blood. Get them the heck away from one another...

If I'm giving Isreal $3B a year I have a lot of say in the deal.

I don't even see an attempt on then the US's part. Not even an attempt. Hey, we propose a plan with so many loopholes that its really no a plan at all...

But you and Bush and Sharon can keep it as compl;icated as you folks think is necessary to maintain the staus quo...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: The suffering Palestinians
From: GUEST,George Bernard Shawshank Redemption
Date: 27 May 03 - 09:10 AM

Excuse me, Bobert, can you repair my hamster? It's already May 27 and I have to meet someone at the Mudcat Cafe.

Subject: RE: BS: The suffering Palestinians
From: Wolfgang
Date: 27 May 03 - 10:06 AM

Don't you see the twisted logic in your first post here, McGrath? Since we speak Latin in this thread, it is a variant of argumentum ad ignorantiam.

A GUEST posting here with a consistent name, New York City, says (by implication) (s)he is Jewish and has lost relatives in the Shoa. A couple of days later Carol calls him or her a virulent anti-semite. NYC calls that remark offensive.

Then you come and say the remark is not offensive since we cannot know whether New York City is actually Jewish or not.

With this type of argumentation nothing can be called offensive anymore. I am a German Neonazi who has raped a Turkish immigrant? That's not offensive for it could be true after all (meaning you could never be completely sure that it is not true). You are the IRA's godfather of the English campaign? From all I know (or better: I don't know) about you it could be true. CarolC is a member of Israel's secret service trying to make Western intellectuals supporting Palestinians look dumb...

I think we are better off when we take what people post about themselves as true and treat them accordingly. It makes the communication easier and the few errors we make this way are on the side of treating wrongduers with undue civility.

Looking back I still think Carol made a very cheap shot with her remark about NYC's anti-semitism.

--------

I'm not at all against links to support argumentation. There are many good or less good reasons to post links in political threads. One type I call for myself the let-me-show-you-how-I-came-to-think-this-way type. I love these informative links and Carol has posted a couple of them in the Israel/Palestine threads. The type I dislike is the look-how-many-websites-I-know-sharing-my-opinion type. Especially, if links of this type come in half dozens in many posts in quick succession and all of them bring the same information in slightly differing words then I know a link-throwing competition has begun.

Multi-linking of this type invariably elicits in me the same reaction I get when a sales(wo)man can't stop talking to me while I consider an offer (or an argument). I think to myself how unsecure (s)he must be of his or her arguments when repeating her(him)self incessantly. Less is more here, at least with me.

--------

Whenever I go to my local supermarket I see a small memorial plaque telling (rephrasing in my words): On (date given, late 1930s), from this place, several hundred Jews from Muenster have been deported to (a concentration camp). 12 of them have come back in 1945. Whenever I cycle to work I pass the place in which the Gestapo has tortured German Jews (and communists, and...).

This may explain to you why I have a deep sympathy for Israel's wish to live in peace in a land with undisputed borders and with no government (or subgovernmental organisation in a neighbouring land) denying its right to exist. This sympathy doesn't extend to everything what the present Israeli government does. Many of its actions do not promote peace at all in my eyes. This sympathy doesn't exclude feelings for the plight of the Palestinians. However, some of this plight has been caused by actions (or inactions) from Arab countries (that's what the link in the first post is about though it belittles too much the responsibility of Israel) and some of it has been self-inflicted by a policy that matches Sharon's in political stupidity.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: The suffering Palestinians
From: Bobert
Date: 27 May 03 - 10:21 AM

Yo, GUEST, GBSR, I generally don't do hampsters but, what the heck. Ship the little feller to me and I'll see waht I can do fir the little guy.

Bobert

p.s. Don't firget to poke a few holes in the box and write "This side Up" on the box so the poor thing won't have to walk upside down on the way....

Subject: RE: BS: The suffering Palestinians
From: GUEST,New York City
Date: 27 May 03 - 11:22 AM

Again, thanks Wolfgang.

McGrath of Harlow,

I've read your complaints that you cannot deal with guests who do not use a handle. I do.

I have been upfront in the Mudcat forum about my background. I am Jewish-American. For the record, I lost my grandparents in the Holocaust. My parents were teenaged survivors when the War ended and they arrived in New York City in 1949. I was born in Brooklyn in 1959 and now live in Manhattan. I work in my family's business and am an acoustic guitarist who performs part-time, primarily as a backup musician.

When CarolC decided to give up arguing facts with me, she decides to marginalize me by saying that I'm a virulent anti-Semite. And you back her up. That's very telling.

Subject: RE: BS: The suffering Palestinians
From: CarolC
Date: 28 May 03 - 12:46 AM

"Yom Hashoah (Holocaust Remembrance Day) begins at sundown this evening (Monday) and continues until one hour after sundown tomorrow.

      On this day we (my emphasis) remember the 6,000,000 Jews killed in the Holocaust, the German Nazis attempt to exterminate all of the Jews of Europe.

Personally, I remember two sets of grandparents, and many other relatives, who were murdered before I was born."

was the second post of New York City on this forum.

To call her or him a virulent anti-semite is offensive in my book.

--Wolfgang

Wolfgang, this post from you surprises me quite a lot. Despite your own bias on this subject, I have nevertheless tended to view you as a logical person. What indication do you have that I ever even saw that post from Guest,New York City?

Subject: RE: BS: The suffering Palestinians
From: Teribus
Date: 28 May 03 - 03:19 AM

Well now - so it aint complicated.

Boberts immediate solution in the interests of keeping, "two folks that got bad blood. Get them the heck away from one another..." is to create a DMZ - I note Bobert dodged the questions I asked relating to this exercise, and here are a couple more:

I will take it as read that Bobert has looked at an atlas recently and appreciates how small a country in terms of area wer are talking about.

1. How wide is your DMZ going to be Bobert?

2. Who do you disposses of land to create it?

"If I'm giving Isreal $3B a year I have a lot of say in the deal." But Bobert that, as I have pointed out, is only one side of the problem - what makes it easy for you is your belief that all fault lies on the side of the Israelis - it doesn't.

"I don't even see an attempt on then the US's part. Not even an attempt."

And neither you should Bobert if any US administration was following your advice. To make such pressure public knowledge would only serve to harden the resolve of the Palestinian terrorist organisations, because all of a sudden the US has become, publically, their strongest ally.

"Hey, we propose a plan with so many loopholes that its really no a plan at all..."

The plan to which you refer, Bobert, has been accepted by both sides and is hence a basis for negotiation - a way forward.

Going back to your enforced settlement of the dispute Bobert. Just think back to your last Presidential Election - a solution was forced on the American electorate - a solution that was accepted by both principals. Did you accept it Bobert?

Subject: RE: BS: The suffering Palestinians
From: Wolfgang
Date: 28 May 03 - 05:12 AM

Carol,

one of your favourite rhetorical tricks is to accuse others of making assumptions. You have done that at least twice in the What is Anti-Semitism thread, but the one person here who is full with unfounded assumptions is you. Remember when you accused me in that thread of something which I had neither said nor meant about Palestinians and what existed only in your fantasy?

You did the same in the Al-Dura thread, when you made assumptions about New York City which had no foundations in what (s)he actually had posted here. Based on these wrong assumptions ("I can't help but think" you did write) you hurled out an insult. Before I make such an insult I usually try to inform myself a bit about the person. My little search showed you how easy it could have been for you to inform yourself. The posting history of New York City is very short.

However, I would never have mentioned it again if not McGrath had made what I consider an ill-conceived attempt to support you. I then deliberately singled out the post you may or may not have seen. I was open to the possibility you had not seen it, but the rest of New York City posts was not so different that a person reading without a profound bias would come to a different conclusion.

Well, you don't say explicitely in your last post you had not read that post from New York City, but it seems to be implied. However, it doesn't seem to make a big difference to you otherwise I think you would have apologised now.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: The suffering Palestinians
From: CarolC
Date: 28 May 03 - 10:04 AM

Remember when you accused me in that thread of something which I had neither said nor meant about Palestinians and what existed only in your fantasy?

No, not a fantasy. A conclusion based on what I have read from you. Drawing conclusions about people based on what you have read from them is something you even do yourself. For instance, you have concluded, based on what you have read from me that I am biased. In the case of the conclusion I drew about you, you told me that it was incorrect, and if you recall, after you told me that, I said I was willing to take your word for it that I was wrong.

GUEST,New York City has been behaving like a troll, and he or she uses his/her alleged Jewishness as a weapon here in the Mudcat. I'm not the only person who has concluded that he/she is a troll. I had no idea when I posted what I did about him or her whether or not he/she was actually Jewish or just pretending. That wasn't of particular concern for me for the point I was trying to make.

My comments on the other thread were a somewhat obscure way of saying that the behavior GUEST,New York City is engaging in here in the Mudcat is as damaging to the perception of Jews by people who are not Jewish as just about anything that might be posted by an anti-Semite. I can understand how a point made as obscurely as this might elude you even with your excellent command of English.

Subject: RE: BS: The suffering Palestinians
From: GUEST,New York City
Date: 28 May 03 - 10:24 AM

GUEST,New York City has been behaving like a troll, and he or she uses his/her alleged Jewishness as a weapon here in the Mudcat.

What utter nonsense. First, CarolC, offensively, tries to paint me as an anti-Semite, then as a troll. Dehumanizing your opponent is a tactic that is well known to propagandists. That is obviously her methodology.

As I mentioned earleir, I will no longer engage in debate with CarolC. She has shown how pointless an exercise that is.

Subject: RE: BS: The suffering Palestinians
From: Wolfgang
Date: 28 May 03 - 10:41 AM

The ugly German shows his face (translated from Der Spiegel July, 2002). An article about how anti-semitism was used as a weapon in the last German elections.

Ralph Giordano (writer and holocaust survivor) is cited in this article:

Accusing the Jews themselves of being responsible for anti-Semitism is exactly how the persecution and killing of Jews was justified throughout Western history.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: The suffering Palestinians
From: GUEST
Date: 28 May 03 - 10:42 AM

NYC,

You are hardly the first Mudcatter to get that kind of treatment fom CarolC. Mike Miller gave up for pretty much the same reasons. Before that there was Irwin.

Subject: RE: BS: The suffering Palestinians
From: GUEST, heric
Date: 28 May 03 - 05:09 PM

>>Accusing the Jews themselves of being responsible for anti-Semitism is exactly how the persecution and killing of Jews was justified throughout Western history.<<

Wowzer! CarolC's genocidal proclivities. Who says we can't discuss this stuff rationally?

And beyond that, it's a rather remarkable quote to wrap one's brain around. How about this: "Persecution and killing of Jews throughout Western history occurred because the people who hated 'them' believed that some group other than the Jews was responsible for anti-Semitism." Nope, that doesn't work very well either. . . Confusing.

Subject: RE: BS: The suffering Palestinians
From: Bobert
Date: 28 May 03 - 05:35 PM

Yo, T:

We're rehashing old material here but I think a DMZ wide enough to keep folks from shooting each other with rifles would probably suffice.

As fir placing blame, you are well aware that over the last couple years I have placed blame on both sides. Only problem is, that in a conflict where one side is obviously superior and having its way, it is their attention that must be gotten first.

As to where the teritorial line be drawn? I don't think it unreasonable to take the land that the Palestianians lived on 20 years ago and use that as the line then divie the DMZ from both sides of that line. No matter what line one uses, it will; be arbitrary in nature. Hey, life ain't perfect and neither is the world but ya got to start somewhere. Howz about you, T? Where would you suggest the line be drawn?

As fir the election/selection? Well, I think we got jipped because we had so many defectors to Gore because folks were scared out of their minds of Bush. I think had Gore or Bush gone into the election with a 20 10 point lead we would have gotten the 5% we needed to get into the debates next time around.

Speaking of getting jipped, I think the entire country got jipped in having a close election called off by 5 very partisan political appointees. It was definately a major setback for democracy and the way it is turning out with Bush, for America.

There, T, did I answer all the questions? Boy, you're compulsive. Bet you drive yer S.O. nuts! Awwww, jus' funnin' with ya, T-Bird.

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: The suffering Palestinians
From: Gareth
Date: 28 May 03 - 07:37 PM

Bobert - Sometime you have to hold yer nose and vote - I did in 1983.

We still lost.

Gareth

Subject: RE: BS: The suffering Palestinians
From: Bobert
Date: 28 May 03 - 07:45 PM

Hey, I've voted in every election since I became old enough to vote and only once have I voted fir the guy who won: Jimmy Carter. But I'll keep at it, but I'm not too interested in voting fir Repubocrats on a national scene, but should Senator Bryd run again, I'll vote fir him.

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: The suffering Palestinians
From: CarolC
Date: 28 May 03 - 10:49 PM

You're just getting loopy now, Wolfgang. As I said before, I didn't know whether or not GUEST,New York City was Jewish when I made that post. I don't care whether or not GUEST, New York City is Jewish. I'm not blaming Jews for anti-Semitism. I would have to KNOW that GUEST, New York City is Jewish in order to do that. But I do know that when people treat others as the enemy needlessly, they create new enemies. GUEST,New York City has been doing that, and he/she is doing it in the name of Judaism. I think that is a mistake.

So go ahead, GUEST,New York City, ignore me. I implore you to ignore me. You too, other GUEST, and you too, Wolfgang.

Most of this thread is nothing more than a very bizarre feeding frenzy by a bunch of people who are out for blood. I can see the shark fins circling in the waters. Maybe you all think you can punish the Palestinians by taking it out on me. Have fun with it.

Subject: RE: BS: The suffering Palestinians
From: Bobert
Date: 28 May 03 - 11:03 PM

CarolC;

Ahhhh, I don't know if you have happened to notice but there a couple of really deranged folks here who just *have* to win. They will spit hair after hair in search of that one little victory but that one little victory will cost them in the end. They are so blinded in detail that they will never see the big picture. Sad.

Don't get pulled down to their little detail focused existences, where victory can be pulled from a slide under a danged microscope. Make them come up to your level which is one of ideas, visions, concepts and love.

Hey, shake the dust from *your* robe.

Really.

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: The suffering Palestinians
From: CarolC
Date: 28 May 03 - 11:12 PM

Thanks Bobert. They can't bring me down. But I don't think love is going to change their minds. I think they just need to discover what they want by experiencing what they don't want. When they get tired of what they're doing now, they'll stop doing it and try something different.

Thanks also, michaelr, TIA, and Stilly River Sage.

Subject: RE: BS: The suffering Palestinians
From: CarolC
Date: 29 May 03 - 01:59 AM

I've just read this whole thread a bit more carefully than I had time to before. I think I have sold this thread short in a couple of ways. First of all, Wolfgang, you criticized me for accusing you of something you never said or meant. Then you went and did something quite similar to me. You have assumed that my posting of multiple links is a tactic of trying to overwhelm the other people in the threads with links. You said:

The type I dislike is the look-how-many-websites-I-know-sharing-my-opinion type.

This is entirely incorrect. I would be happy to be able to post only one link for every point I want to make. It would be a lot less work for me. But I have found that on the subject of Israel/Palestine, people won't accept only one link or one source. They tend to dismiss it out of hand if more than one source isn't provided. Of course, some dismiss them out of hand even when several sources are provided, but only posting one link wouldn't make any difference with those people.

This may explain to you why I have a deep sympathy for Israel's wish to live in peace in a land with undisputed borders and with no government (or subgovernmental organisation in a neighbouring land) denying its right to exist.

It is an assumption on your part that I don't also have a deep sympathy for this very same thing. Where you and I differ is that in my opinion, the approach that the government of Israel is taking is giving them exactly the opposite result of the one they say they want.

I also see that there are quite a few very thoughtful posts in this thread that are not at all what I described in my second to last post. I apologize to those who posted them for this statement by me: "Most of this thread is nothing more than a very bizarre feeding frenzy by a bunch of people who are out for blood". Clearly the people who are/were doing that are in the minority, and everyone else deserves better than that.

Subject: RE: BS: The suffering Palestinians
From: DougR
Date: 29 May 03 - 02:29 AM

Scuse please: CarolC: it is not clear to me; are you trying to convince the folks that you are NOT biased in favor of the Palestinians?

Bobert: back to Teribus question. To create your DMZ, who is going to give up the land to create it? Who is going to force whoever it is to give the land up?

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: The suffering Palestinians
From: Wolfgang
Date: 29 May 03 - 05:44 AM

Carol,

I don't think we should make this thread into a private match. I won't respond to you here in this thread after this post except perhaps with thematic content.

I don't know why and what my contribution to that is but you fail to understand me and my motivation nearly each time you try.

When I wrote "The type (of links) I dislike is the look-how-many-websites-I-know-sharing-my-opinion type" that was an explanation as response for instance to TIA's Dismissing provision of sources as a "link throwing match" is, to me, a concession that you are not interested in data -- damn the facts, full speed ahead. I just wanted to make sure in that paragraph that I do appreciate links in general.

My paragraph was not about you! I only have mentioned you as a positive example in that paragraph about links. You are but one of several people I have in mind that sometimes cross the line from which on I start disliking their link orgy. (You are by far not the worst offender in my eyes, but I don't want to start a new off-topic match). And, by the way, after citing a sentence by me in which I tell what I dislike, you should not write "This is entirely incorrect" as if you would know better than I what I dislike.

It is an assumption on your part that I don't also have a deep sympathy for this very same thing.

Huh? That whole paragraph in my post was not at all about you. You are not as often in my mind as you think you are. I have spoken about my feelings, my experiences and my sympathies. That paragraph, set off visibly of the rest of my post was addressed to 'all' (who may care reading about some background for my sympathies). By the way, the only person I had particularly in mind when writing this paragraph was New York City. When I write about me I make no assumptions whatsoever about others, especially I do never make the assumption that someone else does not share my feelings.

Carol, like here you read some implication from my post that is nowhere in my words and definitely not in my mind.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: The suffering Palestinians
From: CarolC
Date: 29 May 03 - 12:08 PM

Looks like we're both doing the same thing to each other then, Wolfgang. Maybe we should stop doing it.

No, DougR, I'm not trying to convince people of that. I don't consider myself to have a bias in that respect, but I know that that knowlege isn't going to sway the minds of people who believe that I do. It doesn't really matter in the greater scheme of things what they think about me anyway, does it?

Subject: RE: BS: The suffering Palestinians
From: GUEST
Date: 29 May 03 - 12:51 PM

same old - how petty - -

BTW a DMZ where people could not shoot each other would have to be wider than the country. A good sniper could hit someone at 2000 yards. Not sure it's that simple Bobert - - Can't believe you are ascribing violence on the part of the homicide bombers as being OK. Kind of a double take from who you have purported to be in the past - maybe you ought to check out your good book again -

Subject: RE: BS: The suffering Palestinians
From: GUEST, heric
Date: 29 May 03 - 01:15 PM

There should be a name for this technique:

>>>Soon, Carol will post here what she sees as the real truth (which is in my eyes at least as slanted as the site you have been linking to).

Most of us don't post to the history of that conflict any longer for these threads attrack outright anti-semites as Dreaded Guest and, in the best case, after a short time the debate becomes a link throwing match with Carol winning by exhaustion of all remaining opponents.

Read some of the old threads and you'll see that a rational discussion of that conflict here is not possible.<<

To be followed by:

>>>>Carol,
I don't think we should make this thread into a private match. I won't respond to you here in this thread after this post except perhaps with thematic content. <<<<

Subject: RE: BS: The suffering Palestinians
From: GUEST, heric
Date: 29 May 03 - 01:22 PM

I think I would call it the Vaporising Spitball.

Subject: RE: BS: The suffering Palestinians
From: Bobert
Date: 29 May 03 - 02:13 PM

Doug:

Reread my last post for the word "divied" (sp?) and you'll see my position. You missed that important word.

GUEST, 12:51:

Nice try. Find where I said suicide bombers are OK, my friend, and I'll kiss yer butt in the middle of the Mudcat Town Center. Man, I've heard of poetic license but now outright lieing is bad on the soul...

T-Bird:

Still waitin' on where you think the line should be. Or evn if there should be one?

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: The suffering Palestinians
From: CarolC
Date: 29 May 03 - 02:20 PM

LOL heric.

Subject: RE: BS: The suffering Palestinians
From: Teribus
Date: 30 May 03 - 03:41 AM

Bobert,

According to UN Resolution 242 the line is the established Israeli border of pre-six-day war days, that is not going to happen, but it does provide the start point for any negotiation.

A DMZ must be enforced, patrolled and maintained, all at a cost I do not believe anyone would be prepared to take on. Even if someone were, it would in all probability be ineffective, so there is no real point in having one (case in point: the UN peace line, in effect a DMZ, did not work in Lebanon). If we are talking about a peaceful settlement then the foundation of that settlement is the realisation on both sides that they are better off living peacefully, better off co-existing. If that message gets hoisted home there is no requirement for a DMZ.