BS: Kennedy Assassination Anniversary Nearing

Subject: RE: BS: Kennedy Assassination Anniversary Nearing
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Nov 03 - 02:55 PM

Jaysus Ron, give it up. This isn't about your personal persecution complex or my identity. It is about the way you are making and framing your position in this particular argument. Try keeping to the higher road by staying on topic, rather than trying to drag the debate down to a personal level when someone disagrees with you, fer chrissakes. Try defending your ideas for a change.

Subject: RE: BS: Kennedy Assassination Anniversary Nearing
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 23 Nov 03 - 02:59 PM

I understand now Guest. I offer an opinion that differs than yours, you call me an SOB and suddenly I am attacking you instead of debating. Is that how it works?

Defending my ideas? I thought I was in my posts, until you attacked me.

I'm glad if I made you feel uncomfortable with your position nameless one. That is the point I've tried to make - it is too easy to believe in just one side. There are different opinions and when a logical reason is given to support it, it is merely attacked as being part of the conspiracy.

Subject: RE: BS: Kennedy Assassination Anniversary Nearing
From: Bobert
Date: 23 Nov 03 - 07:21 PM

Ahhhhh, excuse me but we were discussing the Kennedy assasination, weren't we?

In spite of my "conspirital theory" type of thinking, I haven't given in to "grassy knolls" 'er Cuba, 'er__________ over the years. But, after seeing the LBJ piece the other night, I really do now have some doubts about the findings of the Warren Report.

I just am having a problem on the "motive" side of either Oswald or Ruby. And I'm not at a point where I can accept the "Well, just a couple of nut-balls" case, either...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Kennedy Assassination Anniversary Nearing
From: kendall
Date: 23 Nov 03 - 07:31 PM

Ruby killed Oswald to shut him up. Oswald was a patsy.

Subject: RE: BS: Kennedy Assassination Anniversary Nearing
From: GUEST,Desdemona
Date: 23 Nov 03 - 09:12 PM

Quite frankly, I *really* can't believe anyone actually CARES!

D.

Subject: RE: BS: Kennedy Assassination Anniversary Nearing
From: Beer
Date: 23 Nov 03 - 09:58 PM

Yeh,
Let's end it there.

Subject: RE: BS: Kennedy Assassination Anniversary Nearing
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 23 Nov 03 - 10:10 PM

Agreed. We won't solve it, nor will any discussion sway opinion. We end up with name calling.

Subject: RE: BS: Kennedy Assassination Anniversary Nearing
From: Mickey191
Date: 23 Nov 03 - 11:51 PM

I can't quite believe that two or three people have said "Who cares?" There are many reasons why this thread is important-chief among them: it may have educated a few. Beer, you thought the event may have been caused by religous hatred. Your take on that surprised me-I wondered what the heck they teach in our schools. Then of course I realize you may not be a US citizen. This thread made me want to see the History channels LBJ tie-in. Given me a few new thoughts-even though I was fairly well versed on subject. Who cares? It's history kids-it's important- he was a modern day President of this Republic. Damn right it's important who killed him.

Ron, it's a shame people can't present their ideas without personality clashes. I must say I think you are wrong in saying discussion won't sway opinions. Kennedy wouldn't have gotten elected if he'd not confronted Nixon and debated. His demeanor played a part-but his presentation swayed alot of voters to his side. Mudcat discussions have changed my mind on a few things.

Subject: RE: BS: Kennedy Assassination Anniversary Nearing
From: Amergin
Date: 24 Nov 03 - 03:39 AM

Mickey, I am serious....I just cannot understand why so many people practically worship the womaniser...ok....he was shot and killed...40 YEARS ago....should we be mulling over the assassination of every president on each anniversary of their death? Do we go on and on about conspiracies for Lincoln or Garfield? Who cares? it makes as much sense to me about discussing whose families were Tories and whose fought for revolutionaries during the American War of Independence...or going on and on about Benedict Arnold...who cares?

Subject: RE: BS: Kennedy Assassination Anniversary Nearing
From: Dave Bryant
Date: 24 Nov 03 - 07:35 AM

The fact that the type of bullet could be accurately identified, still leaves me somewhat puzzled that there have never been any ballistics evidence produced to confirm or conflict with the idea that a bullet from Oswald's weapon killed Kenedy. Had Oswald lived to be tried, I'm sure they would have had to produce some. With modern advances in science, I'm sure that it must be possible to answer the question once and for all - the fact that it hasn't is what inclines me to the conspiracy theory.

Subject: RE: BS: Kennedy Assassination Anniversary Nearing
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Nov 03 - 08:38 AM

The reason why all this matters is that more than a few of the primary people involved in government at the time of the assassination are still active in our government today. It matters because while our government is still lying to the public, and doing it with frightening regularity, the media acts as if it doesn't, and so do the voters.

If an independent investigation could be reopened, it would heal a lot of wounds. Ballistic and forensic evidence, properly handled, could reveal a lot about what happened that day. An independent investigation would tell us who had access to the missing evidence, and we would then know what the trail of evidence was, where it ended, and who it ended with--all information that would reveal a lot to us about who was involved in the cover-up.

Don't confuse the celebrity worshipping factor with the very important political effects of the assassination. Confusing the two is what is keeping the government safe from our (the citizens) right to know what happened.

Subject: RE: BS: Kennedy Assassination Anniversary Nearing
From: Sam L
Date: 24 Nov 03 - 10:01 AM

The Peter Jennings special, with a computer generated re-enactment, supported that Oswald was the gunman. But the figures and information seem to change everywhere one turns.

On this special it was 8 seconds or so, not 4, Oswald had made the rank of sharpshooter and his scores were good enough at greater distance. It seemed possible enough, based on what was presented.

The report also purported to have ballistics evidence of a match with Oswald's rifle, and dismissed the "pristine bullet" problem, showing it wasn't pristine. But rifle markings don't really seem to address the skepticism--wouldn't a bullet that hit two bodies be considerably more impacted? I don't know.

   I find the psychology of the individual actions convincing enough, I can believe it as a possibility. And as someone suggested, spin-off cover-ups to hide bungling are also possible. Unlike movies, where minor characters lead provisional lives in the margins, people have their own motives and take them more seriously than I think they should, since I don't care about them.

I don't hold to an opinion--I don't have time to devote to it. I do care, but not enough to pursue it thoroughly, I can't sort out all the varied info. I'd also be interested if someone tried to determine exactly what happened on a particular city block of some particular town at a given hour. The exercise has a Joycean intellectual fascination apart from it's historic significance.

Subject: RE: BS: Kennedy Assassination Anniversary Nearing
From: JedMarum
Date: 24 Nov 03 - 01:07 PM

the more time goes by and the deeper the study gets, the more technology helps us review and re-examine the old original evidence - the more clear it is that the Warren Commission got it pretty damn close!

Subject: RE: BS: Kennedy Assassination Anniversary Nearing
From: JedMarum
Date: 24 Nov 03 - 01:15 PM

Ron Olesko - right on!

Marksmenship was not a problem. It is not true that the shooting was particularly difficult, under the circumstances. And Oswald qualified twice as a marskman, the Marine's second highest level, In addition, we know he continued to practice.

Having said that, he actually missed with his first two ... one hitting the Gov in front of Jack, the second, a possibly non-lethal wound to the neck.

Subject: RE: BS: Kennedy Assassination Anniversary Nearing
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 24 Nov 03 - 02:41 PM

Someone mentioned "missing evidence". From what I've read, this "evidence", physical tissue samples taken from JFK, was turned over to Robert Kennedy. The Kennedy family did not want this material to be on display in museums in the future and they had fought to keep items such as the autopsy photos from being made public.   Again, from what I've read, the trail of what happened to this material after it was given to RFK is unknown. It is assumed that he had it destroyed.

Subject: RE: BS: Kennedy Assassination Anniversary Nearing
From: Amergin
Date: 24 Nov 03 - 08:26 PM

no Guest, it is more that the older generation idolises him....

Subject: RE: BS: Kennedy Assassination Anniversary Nearing
From: SINSULL
Date: 24 Nov 03 - 08:56 PM

The theory that Johnson was involved in the assassination was openly discussed and in fact spawned a successful musical called "MacByrd" loosely based on MacBeth.

Amergin,
Who among the older generation idolizes JFK? I know of no one who does. In 1963 we were a bit naive about our government and our elected officials. We believed what we read in the newspapers. We wanted our dead president to be a hero and his widow to mourn chastely for the rest of her life.
But we grew up very quickly and learned our lessons the hard way surrounded by the mangled and dead bodies of our classmates. Then came Watergate. And the Achille Lauro. And Oliver North. And Ruby Ridge. And Oklahoma City. And September 11.
We are now a cynical lot who know that politicians will say anything to get elected, generals will lie to get more weapons and money, presidents of either party will lie to pay to contributors and assure their own re-election or to push forward their own agendas. JFK screwed anything in skirts. He came very close to landing us in the middle of a nuclear war.
You are confusing hero worship with celebrity worship. The Kennedy name is still magic. And there will always be some who will follow the family's trials and tribulations wih a hanky in one hand and a camera in the other, much like Britain's royal family.

Subject: RE: BS: Kennedy Assassination Anniversary Nearing
From: GUEST,pdc
Date: 24 Nov 03 - 09:06 PM

Amergin said, "no Guest, it is more that the older generation idolises him...."

Christ, who will your generation have to idolize? I don't know your age, but assume you are younger than the Kennedy generation. That leaves you with Nixon, Reagan, Clinton, and Bush among other less...er...graphic presidents. Poor you.

Subject: RE: BS: Kennedy Assassination Anniversary Nearing
From: SINSULL
Date: 24 Nov 03 - 09:51 PM

No worries, pdc. He has Princess Diana and future president Arnold Schwarzenegger (obviously, that law will have to be changed).

Sorry, Amergin. I see people fascinated by the conspiracy theories surrounding Kennedy's assassination. And I see people fascinated by the Kennedy family. But idolized?

Subject: RE: BS: Kennedy Assassination Anniversary Nearing
From: GUEST,pdc
Date: 24 Nov 03 - 10:12 PM

I'm not really being fair to Amergin, but then Amergin isn't being fair either.

No one who wasn't there can possibly understand the Kennedy years. The exuberance, the hope, the wit -- sure it all would have ended, perhaps badly, perhaps with a dull thud. But we were all on such a high in those days, and when that high was shattered in Dallas, on a beautiful day, it had the same effect then that 9/11 did in 2001. I'm fairly sure that Amergin will remember 9/11 as being life-changing in some way; we from the Kennedy era remember his assassination in much the same way.

Rather than sneering, Amergin, try to get some old newspapers or TV clips and watch what we saw -- not the actual shooting, but the aftermath...the people crying in the streets (in my country too, btw), the utter shock, the bewilderment and disbelief. Watch Walter Cronkite, the most unflappable newscaster in history, announce that the president was dead, and break down.

But don't sneer at something you didn't share.

Subject: RE: BS: Kennedy Assassination Anniversary Nearing
From: Mickey191
Date: 24 Nov 03 - 10:33 PM

Amergin, You are wrong in tying the interest some of have in this particular murder with idealization or hero worship. It is (for me) mainly an interest in the truth. Just as I've always had an interest in the Lindbergh kidnapping.

Guest PDC, I doubt the younger generation has any political heroes. More likely Britney Spears & Michael Jackson, as evidenced by all those who wanted to touch his hand on the way to the booking. I remember when I was young, being thrilled to see Hubert Horatio Humphrey.

Lastly, Sinsull you are right on--we were as a country a bit innocent. The young Family in the White house represented us all. Young president with the kids in the oval office. It was nice & respectable, even though we knew about Pop & the Scotch & Gloria.We didn't know about "The Women."His death was a turning point, to be corny-the loss of innocents. Boy have we matured.I'm as cynical now as one can get. Bush & his cohorts seem every day to have another victory over us. The medicare privatization around the corner,Enron,AARP's tawdry actions, the overtime bill-it all stinks. And as flawed as JFK was-I do not think he would have forsaken the working stiffs who elected him.

Subject: RE: BS: Kennedy Assassination Anniversary Nearing
From: Bobert
Date: 24 Nov 03 - 10:33 PM

Well, though being the originator of this thread, I can't really say that I can fully appreciate (for lack of a better word) the realities of the assasination. My mom was an active Democrat and I remember her having me accompany her in 1960 in her door knocking for Kennedy. Heck, I was like 14 and all I really cares about was baseball... but I did it...

Then, in '63, I was into, ahhhhh, still baseball and didn't have a clue as to what was going on other than, you guessed it... baseball.

But over the years it has struck me funny (for lack of a better word) that all the stories about JFK's assasination just don't add up. I;m looking at a couple of folks (Oswald and Ruby) who really don't seem to have a motive.... Now, that makes me think... Robert Kennnedy? Motive? Nah..... Martin Luther King? Motive? Nah... Like what the heck is going on here?

Yeah, these are important questions that need answers. Not the company line but, ahhh, answers.... Without answers then we can expect that if anyone from the left rises to power then they will also be killed and folks will just go ahead with parroting the "company line".

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Kennedy Assassination Anniversary Nearing
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 25 Nov 03 - 01:00 AM

Bobert, I don't think you can draw the conclusion that anyone from the left who rises to power will be killed.   Especially in the Kennedy deaths, they became martyrs that some could argue were more powerful in death than they were in life.   Assassination doesn't work for political motives in this country because there are always others ready to step up and keep up the fight. Instead of one magnetic leader, you have a generation that becomes galvanized to take up the fight.

You mentioned three names from the 1960's. You could go back further and look at the attempted assassinations on Truman & FDR, the murders of Garfield and Lincoln, plus others like Huey Long. In more recent times we have the death of John Lennon and the attempts on Reagan and Gerald Ford. Most of these were individuals, some with political causes and others who were just nuts. It is interesting that most Americans today do not know of the Lincoln conspiracy and think that Booth acted alone. I wonder what that tells us about history.

Subject: RE: BS: Kennedy Assassination Anniversary Nearing
From: Sam L
Date: 25 Nov 03 - 09:38 AM

Bobert, I think you might be taking the idea of motive too seriously, or not seriously enough.

   But I wanted to re-iterate my conviction that Oliver Stone sucks.

Subject: RE: BS: Kennedy Assassination Anniversary Nearing
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Nov 03 - 02:12 PM

I would like to reiterate that Kevin Costner's New Orleans accent sucks also.

Subject: RE: BS: Kennedy Assassination Anniversary Nearing
From: Ebbie
Date: 25 Nov 03 - 11:08 PM

One thing has always rung strange to me- we're told, over and over again, from JFK and Martin Luther King, Robert Kennedy, through Ronald Reagan, that each of these (actual or would-be) assassins worked alone.

My question: Just how many people do you know who you think are capable of doing this kind of deed by themselves? People who would not enlist the help of others or take them in on it or brag? To my knowledge, I don't know anyone like that.

Subject: RE: BS: Kennedy Assassination Anniversary Nearing
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 26 Nov 03 - 12:14 AM

I really don't know anyone who would shoot a president so I don't think I could say if they would work alone or not.

I would like to think that if more than one person involved, at least one of them would come to their senses and realize how futile their plan is. Even if they do succeed, the end up creating a martyr whose cause will gain strength which would overshadow any message they are trying to make.

Subject: RE: BS: Kennedy Assassination Anniversary Nearing
From: JedMarum
Date: 26 Nov 03 - 12:24 AM

It seems to me exactly the kind of act that one would do alone.