BS: Illegal Immigration

Subject: RE: BS: Illegal Immigration
From: hesperis
Date: 16 Oct 04 - 01:56 PM

Toronto is actually beginning to have an ethnic problem. A lot of people immigrate to it but don't speak English or even French... then it's much harder for them to join into the culture. They settle in pockets of same-language people and don't get to know others easily.

There are no ads for service jobs in Toronto that don't require knowledge of English AND either Portugese or Mandarin... and there are jobs that require only Portugese or only Mandarin. When the ads say "bilingual" they don't mean English and French anymore.

Then the servers at the restaurants don't know english properly, only enough to get by, and they mess up your orders constantly. People who speak only English - even very well - find it REALLY difficult to get a job.

This problem could only be solved by slowing the rate of immigration, and offering incentives to people to settle in areas other than the large cities.

Subject: RE: BS: Illegal Immigration
From: dianavan
Date: 16 Oct 04 - 02:03 PM

BillD - You said, "we would have a situation where the infrastructure, from major business to the news media to school systems..etc were still largely controlled by Caucasians, mostly of W.A.S.P persuasion."

True - Therein lies the argument for early education, hiring practices that include minorities, balanced media coverage, and an absence of racial profiling and stereotyping. Of course these are only ideals but does that mean we shouldn't strive for the ideal?

If you choose Spanish as your other official language then you only have to cater to two languages. Canada did it because Quebec is predominately French and its part of Canada. Which states are predominately Spanish speaking? California? Texas? Arizona? New Mexico? Florida? I don't know. I believe that originally they might have been Spanish speaking territories. Then again, if you combine all the Spanish speakers that are legally in the U.S., what is the ratio? If its very high, it would be prudent to educate children in both languages. Its when people have a hard time communicating that misunderstandings occur.

I don't know if you can really compare Canada and the U.S. on the language debate but you can certainly use it as an example of how a government can make laws to provide inclusion. English lang. businesses had to go through some growing pains but it seems the adjustments have been made. Just like we had to go through some growing pains to adopt the metric system.

Seems to me that for a Nation to grow and prosper, it must flexible and willing to make some changes.

d

d

Subject: RE: BS: Illegal Immigration
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Oct 04 - 02:07 PM

Be patient with the waiters 'constantly' getting your orders wrong. Their children will be schooled in your schools and have an easier ride. The first generation of newcomers are often the ones to face the biggest prejudices. It must be hard.

Subject: RE: BS: Illegal Immigration
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Oct 04 - 06:24 PM

And the food is certainly a lot better in England since the Chinese and the Indians and so forth arrived.

Subject: RE: BS: Illegal Immigration
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Oct 04 - 06:14 PM

We talk in abstract terms here - but there is real human suffering involved.

For an individual example of a case where immigration controls in the USA and in Australia have arbitarily torn a family apart, look at this thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Illegal Immigration
From: GUEST,Teribus
Date: 25 Oct 04 - 11:25 AM

hesperis 16 Oct 04 - 01:56 PM

Taking aside all the bits about waiters and waitresses messing up orders, what you said in your post, referred to above, was said a long time ago, 1964 if memory serves me correctly, by a Tory MP - His name was Enoch Powell.

Subject: RE: BS: Illegal Immigration
From: GUEST,Peter from Essex
Date: 25 Oct 04 - 07:35 PM

The publicity in the tabloids has got some people thinking that every non-white person in the street is a recent illegal. Even the lad with a strong local accent delivering menus for the local Chinese takeaway. (Does the Daily Mail tell them that Kosovo and Kurdistan are suburbs of Hong Kong?)

Subject: RE: BS: Illegal Immigration
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Oct 04 - 07:50 PM

Colour and "race" aren't the only reasons people get discriminated against.

That link I gave just now to MY DAUGHTER NEEDS HELP leads to a thread about a case where disability is the issue.

It's a case where the Australian authorities refused to allow a disabled girl and her mother, American citizens, to live with the girl's father (and the lady's husband), who is Australian, simply because of the disability; and then the American authorities are refusing to allow the father to join daughter and wife back in America, because on a previous visit he had overstayed his visa.

Read it and weep. (Then try to do something about it, maybe?)

Subject: RE: BS: Illegal Immigration
From: Bill D
Date: 25 Oct 04 - 10:30 PM

dianavan.....with the Getaway and the onset of craft season,(busy, busy, busy), I lost track of this thread. I will contemplate what you say and ask and try to give a reasonable answer tomorrow.   (I agree with some points you make, but then have to question some of the conclusions you draw as simply not following from the premises.)

Subject: RE: BS: Illegal Immigration
From: dianavan
Date: 26 Oct 04 - 02:46 AM

Bill D - I didn't know this was so formal. Maybe if you can define the premise, I will be able to form a conclusion.

d

Subject: RE: BS: Illegal Immigration
From: Bill D
Date: 26 Oct 04 - 08:00 PM

ok..*grin*...less formal.

in your post of 15 Oct, 8:47, you note how bilingualim had come about in Canada, and how well it usually works, since everyone MUST learn, (at least superfically, I guess) both languages. Then you ask me "what are you afraid of?" and note ..." I know a Spanish speaker married to a French speaker. Their children speak three languages. All three languages are spoken at home."...etc...

I see those points, and I agree that it does work reasonably well in Canada, and I agree that it IS good for a person/family to know several languages if possible, but I do NOT agree that the US could simply 'do like Canada' and require compliance and order everyone to learn Spanish, for example. The US has a much larger pouplation and demographic complexity than Canada, and there would be huge groups that would resist any attempt to institute such rules! We have Southern Rural folks (Rednecks is the common word) who would not have anything to do with an idea like that....and African-American populations in many cities which barely tolerate Latinos...and vice-versa.

In a later post you say ".. Therein lies the argument for early education, hiring practices that include minorities, balanced media coverage, and an absence of racial profiling and stereotyping."

good luck!...especially with a Republican administration.......also, some ethnic groups do SELF-profiling and stereotyping. They flatly do-not-intend to be like anyone else, and ridicule members of their own group who try to 'blend in'. This is especially pervasive among blacks, but is also common among Latinos and some Asian groups.

Again, I agree that education is good, and differences need to be ironed out, but this..... "I don't know if you can really compare Canada and the U.S. on the language debate but you can certainly use it as an example of how a government can make laws to provide inclusion..." is not really a workable solution given the desire by many to avoid true inclusion.

It is SO hard to explain how huge the problem is, and that it bears only superfical resemblance to Canada's situation..(though I read that Canada, as well as some spots in Europe, are seeing rapid immigrant growth that threatens to swamp the system).

I am trying to find a way to express my opinion briefly and succinctly, but it ain't easy, as you see.   

Let me just say that while I agree that "multi-culturalism" can be a positive educational thing and contribute to understanding and other good things, this ONLY works if the process is monitored and does not overwhelm the ability of the society to make adjustments, especially in conflicts of value systems--which are directly reflected in language. If we cannot communicate easily, we cannot negotiate and appreciate. You cannot just state that bi-lingualism and multi-culturalism are 'good' and that therefore we ought to durn well make it a law! (Most US high schools require some classes in a 2nd language for graduation, but NOT any specific one, and no one is willing to choose just one to require)

"Seems to me that for a Nation to grow and prosper, it must flexible and willing to make some changes."....and for those changes to be viewed as anything other than having someone elses values forced down one's throat, they have to be done much more slowly than you suggest. This goes way beyond "freedom of opportunity" , because a 'Nation' cannot be willing to do anything....only its citizens can, and every one of them has to be convinced individually, no matter how many laws are passed.

Subject: RE: BS: Illegal Immigration
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Oct 04 - 08:23 PM

I imagine it'll happen at State level, in States where there is a sizeable Spanish speaking minority, or majority. When in time that has happened in many or even most of the States it'd be silly not to give Spanish some kind of official status at a national level.

Subject: RE: BS: Illegal Immigration
From: Bill D
Date: 26 Oct 04 - 09:53 PM

it is possible that certain states will deal with larger Latino populations long before others will. It is one of the things that makes the United STATES a tricky way to run a country. We are constantly debating what things individual states should have final say over, and what should be regulated by the Federal government. That leads to strange conflicts like the current one about the serial snipers being tried in the DC area. Three different states and the District of Columbia, with differing approaches to punishment, are all wanting to try these guys, and it took months just to decide who got first chance.

It also leads to women in one state sneaking over to another for abortions, and smuggling of cigarettes, and driving over the border for better bargains on alcohol.

So...Texas may need to deal with Mexican immegrants, legal and illegal, but Louisana, just to the east, may not like ANY compromise, given the large Acadian-French (Cajun) speaking population....and both those states have serious attitudes about 'their' culture. You can barely imagine what the Swedish/German/Norwegian areas in Minnesota or Wisconsin would have to say if they were informed that their kids MUST learn Spanish.

I can't tell you what will happen in 20-40-80 years, as much demographic change will depend on politics and the world situation as regards oil and religion..etc..but I think that the only way that 'might' prevent serious conflict (at least in the US) is to encourage keeping one's ethnic heritage alive, while insisting that immigrants and communities adapt to the lingua franca of the country, as defined by National commerce, business and the media. This would (IMHO) allow the best opportunity for advancement and integration that are necessary to compete in a complex society.

Subject: RE: BS: Illegal Immigration
From: dianavan
Date: 27 Oct 04 - 12:26 AM

Bill D - You have certainly thought this through. Sound reasoning too, I'd say.

I just heard that Bush has an immigration policy on hold until after the election. If elected he is going to flood the U.S. with immigrants who will work for very low wages. Looks like you should investigate this rumour because if what you say is true, all hell will break loose stateside.

It would be just like Bush to flood the country with immigrants and fail to provide the support systems required for successful inclusion. Sounds like more conflict ahead if Bush gets in.

d

Subject: RE: BS: Illegal Immigration
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Oct 04 - 07:14 AM

Isn't it strange how language works? "Lingua franca" is the Latin for the French language, but in English it doesn't mean that; and when Americans talk about "Latinos" that apparently doesn't include Italians.

Subject: RE: BS: Illegal Immigration
From: Bill D
Date: 27 Oct 04 - 06:39 PM

it seems that 'Latino' is the preferred term chose BY the majority of the Spanish speaking citizens lately, rather than Hispanic or a couple of other terms.

dianavan...I would not be surprised to see a number of startling Bush policies if he gets to play for 4 more years. He lives in Texas, and had a term as Governor to decide that cheap labor and grateful Latinos would help his cause...along with exporting many American jobs. I do NOT understand his reasoning, but he pushes onward with strange ploicies.

Subject: RE: BS: Illegal Immigration
From: Ebbie
Date: 28 Oct 04 - 12:02 AM

Something that struck me anew last winter may not be familiar to everyone. You know those WALK figures we are all familiar with at street corners or those yellow PEDESTRIAN CROSSING signs? Well, at the US border and for some miles up into California there are cautioning freeway signs depicting fleeing people, a jarring reminder of desperation.

Subject: RE: BS: Illegal Immigration
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Oct 04 - 07:01 PM

I'd assumed that Latino was to take account of Portuguese speakers.   Wouldn't people from Brazil count as "Latino"?

And I'd have rather thought that Italian Americans would object to not being included in the term, since it was Italians developed Latin and exported it to Spain. And Spanish and Italian are still remarkably similar languages.

Subject: RE: BS: Illegal Immigration
From: Bill D
Date: 28 Oct 04 - 11:29 PM

*grin*...it isn't rational, Kevin....I have in all my life, NEVER heard a Portugese speaker offer an opinion.....and since we get very few Brazilian immigrants, they are not speaking out on the matter. But I suppose 'if' a Brazilian were to settle here, he'd probably be classified as 'latino' for convenience sake. (our convenience, not his) Italian-Americans consider themselves a separate group, mostly....certainly no one around here would mean to include Italians as Latinos....the term is 97.2714% reserved for Spanish speakers from Mexico, Cuba, Puerto Rico, Dominican Republic & Central America

Subject: RE: BS: Illegal Immigration
From: Riginslinger
Date: 01 Nov 08 - 10:36 AM

WASHINGTON – Barack Obama's aunt, a Kenyan woman who has been quietly living in public housing in Boston, is in the United States illegally after an immigration judge rejected her request for asylum four years ago, The Associated Press has learned.

According to Federal Election Commission documents filed by the Obama campaign, Onyango has contributed $260 to Obama over a period of time. Under federal election law, only U.S. citizens or green-card holders are legally permitted to give money to campaigns. Onyango, who listed her employer as the Boston Housing Authority, gave in small increments to the Obama campaign. Her latest contribution was $5 on Sept. 19.

Boston Mayor Thomas Menino said Saturday that he had no idea how Onyango might have qualified for public housing with a standing deportation order. He said he's not involved in the operations of the agency, even though he appoints the head, because it runs mainly on federal and state dollars.

William McGonagle, deputy director of the Boston Housing Authority, said when contacted: "I know nothing about it and I've got no comment."

Subject: RE: BS: Illegal Immigration
From: Ebbie
Date: 01 Nov 08 - 11:18 AM

You are as reliable as a feeding sparrow, Rig. ^g&

Subject: RE: BS: Illegal Immigration
From: Bill D
Date: 01 Nov 08 - 12:48 PM

That post, Rig, is barely relevant to the general discussion of 4 years ago. You are frantically seeking ANY pretext to smear Obama and his candidacy with insinuations that HE is somehow responsible for everything you might object to.

   If there is an immigration violation in this case, OR a matter of a few $$$ donations, it can be handled without using it as a bludgeon against Obama.

Subject: RE: BS: Illegal Immigration
From: Riginslinger
Date: 01 Nov 08 - 12:53 PM

A feeding sparrow?

Subject: RE: BS: Illegal Immigration
From: katlaughing
Date: 01 Nov 08 - 12:56 PM

It will be one more thing the Desperate McCan't and 'Spalin' will try to use, but it will do them no good. Here is further response:

CHICAGO (AP) — Democratic presidential candidate Barack Obama says he didn't know that one of his relatives was living in the United States illegally and believes the appropriate laws should be followed.

The Associated Press found that Obama's aunt had been instructed to leave the country four years ago by an immigration judge who rejected her request for asylum from her native Kenya. The woman, Zeituni Onyango (zay-TUHN on-YANG-oh), is living in public housing in Boston and is the half-sister of Obama's late father.

A statement given to the AP by Obama's campaign Saturday says, "Senator Obama has no knowledge of her status but obviously believes that any and all appropriate laws be followed."

Subject: RE: BS: Illegal Immigration
From: Riginslinger
Date: 01 Nov 08 - 01:04 PM

Great! After he's elected he can personally escort her out of the country.

Subject: RE: BS: Illegal Immigration
From: Bill D
Date: 01 Nov 08 - 01:15 PM

the entire story

Subject: RE: BS: Illegal Immigration
From: Ebbie
Date: 01 Nov 08 - 01:15 PM

By "feeding sparrow", Rig, I was recognizing your predictability. Ya know, the fresh, steaming pile? I knew you would be the first on this bit of news.

Subject: RE: BS: Illegal Immigration
From: Riginslinger
Date: 01 Nov 08 - 02:04 PM

Just trying to keep the American public from making a terrible, terrible mistake.

                Plus, you've got to wonder why people keep putting those "steaming piles" out there in the first place, in this case another one of Obama's relatives.

Subject: RE: BS: Illegal Immigration
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Nov 08 - 04:50 PM

Everyone hopes the American public doesn't make a terrible terible mistake. Fortunately at the moment it looks as if they probably aren't going to. Touch wood.

God preserve us all from the vicious small minded people who crop up at times like this.

Subject: RE: BS: Illegal Immigration
From: Ebbie
Date: 01 Nov 08 - 04:54 PM

"Plus, you've got to wonder why people keep putting those "steaming piles" out there in the first place, in this case another one of Obama's relatives."

I agree, Rig. Why do you do it?

Subject: RE: BS: Illegal Immigration
From: Riginslinger
Date: 01 Nov 08 - 05:10 PM

Ebbie - I had nothing to do with Obama's relative being in the country illegally.

Subject: RE: BS: Illegal Immigration
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Nov 08 - 06:09 PM

Prove it.

Subject: RE: BS: Illegal Immigration
From: Ebbie
Date: 01 Nov 08 - 06:30 PM

That's right. Rig, how did you get to know so much about all these guys? Just who are your associates?

Subject: RE: BS: Illegal Immigration
From: Barry Finn
Date: 01 Nov 08 - 06:36 PM

Rig, you can't even prove that Obama had anything to do with this, as much as you can prove that you didn't.

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Illegal Immigration
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 01 Nov 08 - 07:26 PM

If Barrack Obama knew what every member of his extended family was up to at all times, he wouldn't be needing to run for President. He'd already be God.

If he helped his aunt stay in the country illegally or if his campaign took money from her while knowing she was a foreign national, this would be an issue. But there's no evidence that either occurred, so it's irrelevant. That she happens to be related to him is coincidental.

Even the McCain campaign is calling this a family matter and leaving it alone. Take a clue from them.

Subject: RE: BS: Illegal Immigration
From: Riginslinger
Date: 01 Nov 08 - 08:34 PM

It looks to me like it's an immigration matter, and not a family matter at all.

Subject: RE: BS: Illegal Immigration
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 01 Nov 08 - 09:03 PM

True, it's an immigration matter. But, as such, it has no more relevance to the campaign than the hundreds of other immigration violations the INS investigates every day. That this particular violator was related to Obama is coincidental and irrelevant. Obama has already said she should be treated the same as any other violator.   What more do you want?

Subject: RE: BS: Illegal Immigration
From: Ebbie
Date: 01 Nov 08 - 09:07 PM

Ah, but you see, Rig is just protecting the nation. Obama's aunt, for all we know, is a cat burglar or is out dealing drugs or using her trusty acetyline cannister on stolen cars. One cannot be too careful with these furriners.

Subject: RE: BS: Illegal Immigration
From: Riginslinger
Date: 01 Nov 08 - 09:08 PM

I guess it all comes down to people believing, or not, whether he didn't know.

Subject: RE: BS: Illegal Immigration
From: Big Mick
Date: 01 Nov 08 - 09:15 PM

What he wants is for Obama to not be elected. He cannot dissuade folks by his brilliant intellectual and economic arguments, so he reverts to the weapon of the uninformed and the ignorant, namely using innuendo, falsehoods, and half truths. I don't blame him as his mentors, Grampy McSwain and Caribou Barbie, are doing the same.

Subject: RE: BS: Illegal Immigration
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Nov 08 - 09:17 PM

It seems much more likely he didn't know. Why should he have known, after all?

I rather suspect that it would have been easy enough to sort out some way of sorting this out, if he had known.

Subject: RE: BS: Illegal Immigration
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 01 Nov 08 - 09:35 PM

I guess it all comes down to people believing, or not, whether he didn't know.

At this moment, I can't tell you what any of my family members other than my wife are up to. Hell, I don't even know exactly where more than a couple of 'em live. Every one of them could be breaking the law in some fashion for all I know and I would be totally ignorant of it. Why should I expect Obama to be any more aware than I am about what members of his extended family are doing?

Subject: RE: BS: Illegal Immigration
From: Riginslinger
Date: 02 Nov 08 - 06:21 AM

Once Again Senator Obama Needs to Come Clean with the Latino Community:


Contact: Robert Deposada, Latinos for Reform, [phone]


WASHINGTON, Nov. 1 /PRNewswire-USNewswire/ -- Latinos for Reform (LFR) called on Senator Barack Obama to come clean with the American people, and particularly with the Latino community regarding the issue of his aunt, who has been in the U.S. illegally for four years now.


"We have no doubts that Senator Obama is once again hiding the truth from the American people when it comes to the story of his aunt," said LFR Chairman Robert Deposada. "For crying out loud, everyone would agree that when people in other countries have relatives in government, it is a common practice to contact them for assistance when they have a problem. She knew she had a powerful Senator as her nephew, considering that she attended his swearing-in ceremony in the Senate. And this was not a traffic ticket we're talking about. She was ordered to leave the country by an immigration judge. So you can rest assure that she did contact him."


"Senator Obama must come clean about his knowledge of her illegal status," Deposada added. "This situation makes us question why he remained so quiet during the immigration debate in the Senate and why he supported all the poison pills to kill the bipartisan legislation introduced last year in the U.S. Senate. He should have put his personal interest aside and help address the issue of comprehensive immigration reform."


SOURCE Latinos for Reform

Subject: RE: BS: Illegal Immigration
From: Ebbie
Date: 02 Nov 08 - 10:04 AM

Latinos for Reform (LFR) called on Senator Barack Obama to come clean with the American people, and particularly with the Latino community ...

Why the Latino community, particularly?

Subject: RE: BS: Illegal Immigration
From: Riginslinger
Date: 02 Nov 08 - 10:14 PM

I don't know. The Latinos just seemed to want to jump in the middle of it. Probably because they're always taking it in the shorts for being in the country illegally, but if you're related to a sitting senator, you not only get to stay, buy you're rewarded with public housing to boot.

Subject: RE: BS: Illegal Immigration
From: Riginslinger
Date: 27 Jan 09 - 09:53 PM

If we're lucky, the Democrats and the Republicans can get together long enough to pass an Economic Recovery Act. Hopefully, there will be jobs in the act for people, much like the jobs that were generated in the legislation that was passed under FDR during the the Great Depression--not to be confussed with the last depression that was caused by whoever was running Ronald Reagan.
                   And if we're lucky, this legislation will include some kind of language that will direct these jobs to legal American citizens, with strict sanctions for managers found in violation.

Subject: RE: BS: Illegal Immigration
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 28 Jan 09 - 03:28 PM

Riginslinger

"And if we're lucky, this legislation will include some kind of language that will direct these jobs to legal American citizens, with strict sanctions for managers found in violation."

the real problem is all those people who arrived after 1492

Best wishes

L in C

Subject: RE: BS: Illegal Immigration
From: Riginslinger
Date: 28 Jan 09 - 04:10 PM

Les - Why not include the folks who arrived on the Siberian Ice Bridge and crowed out Kennewick Man while you're at it?

Subject: RE: BS: Illegal Immigration
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 29 Jan 09 - 03:50 AM

Because almost nobody believes that a large collection of people lived in North America before people came across the SIB. However when they did arrive they exterminated a lot of big creatures,

Cheers

Les

Subject: RE: BS: Illegal Immigration
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 29 Jan 09 - 08:13 AM

No I have probably got that wrong. I understand that people may have traveled from Asia around the coast in some kind of boats / canoes maybe?

Cheers

Les