BS: Umpqua: the gun was innocent...

Subject: RE: BS: Umpqua: the gun was innocent...
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 05 Oct 15 - 10:35 PM

Guns in the house, this is what you'll end up with.

Subject: RE: BS: Umpqua: the gun was innocent...
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 06 Oct 15 - 03:10 AM

The idea that no-one should have an opinion about what goes on in another country is ludicrous. We all do that all the time including Americans. Likewise the idea that it is people knocking Americans and is a case of us and them is also ludicrous. I don't know that many Americans but the ones I do know well are very anti guns and despair at the continuing gun culture. In fact there may now be a majority against stricter gun control laws (ie the url below 50% are against and 47% for stricter laws) but it is still a divide where almost half say there should be stricter laws. So it isn't an American v the rest situation when it comes to how people think. Though saying that I imagine for the vast bulk of Brits the idea that the way to protect society is to flood it with even more guns, which some seem to be advocating, looks nothing less than crazy!

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/kathleen-weldon/shootings-guns-and-public_b_8065682.html

Subject: RE: BS: Umpqua: the gun was innocent...
From: GUEST,Howard Jones
Date: 06 Oct 15 - 04:18 AM

Removing guns from a society cannot be done overnight. However the UK and other European countries have managed it, over time, and on the whole have broad public support for doing so. This does not mean that guns are not permitted for vermin control, hunting or target shooting, but ownership and storage are very closely controlled. Neither does it mean that we are immune from shootings, including mass shootings, but compared with the US these are incredibly rare events.

One of the arguments put forward is that only the criminals will have guns. This is true here. However if I am mugged or burgled, it is unlikely that the criminal will have a gun, because the penalties for having a gun will far exceed the other crime. The maximum sentence for burglary is 14 years, but it is reported that many first-time burglars don't even go to prison but get a community sentence, however for aggravated burglary, which includes carrying a weapon of any sort, it could be life imprisonment. Armed robbery is fairly unusual and usually aimed at high-value targets such as security trucks.

I don't feel the need to arm myself to protect my home, and if I were to do so I would be at considerable risk of falling foul of the law myself. Neither do I feel threatened by my government, but if they did decide to oppress me by force I doubt I would last long against our highly professional and well trained armed forces. I think I'd choose to submit and survive rather than try to shoot it out.

Provided I keep away from airports and other high-security locations where the police are routinely and visibly armed, I can go for months without ever seeing a gun. I don't feel threatened by criminals with guns and have never felt the need to arm myself.

Subject: RE: BS: Umpqua: the gun was innocent...
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Oct 15 - 04:25 AM

Removing guns from a society cannot be done overnight. However the UK and other European countries have managed it,

There has never been comparable gun ownership in UK and Europe.
US is unique in that, and should be judged differently.

Subject: RE: BS: Umpqua: the gun was innocent...
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 06 Oct 15 - 04:42 AM

I'd like to reinforce what Peter Laban said:

http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/oct/05/tennessee-boy-kills-girl-puppies-sheriff

A 12 year old boy shot and killed an 8 year old girl using his father's shotgun, because she would not show him her puppies (the dog sort). On a trailer park.

Subject: RE: BS: Umpqua: the gun was innocent...
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 06 Oct 15 - 05:47 AM

Howard's latest post neatly expresses what my 2 sarcastic but muddled posts probably failed to do..

Re. this point

"I don't feel the need to arm myself to protect my home, and if I were to do so I would be at considerable risk of falling foul of the law myself. Neither do I feel threatened by my government, but if they did decide to oppress me by force I doubt I would last long against our highly professional and well trained armed forces. I think I'd choose to submit and survive rather than try to shoot it out."

The 2011 movie "Red State" is a cruel dark satire on armed to the teeth religious cult stand offs with the Govt.

The resulting siege is at the same time condemning of mass gun ownership, and a terrific wet dream for movie shoot out action fans...

Artistic ambiguity... bloody annoying innit,..!!!??? 😜

Subject: RE: BS: Umpqua: the gun was innocent...
From: akenaton
Date: 06 Oct 15 - 05:49 AM

"The idea that no-one should have an opinion about what goes on in another country is ludicrous. We all do that all the time including Americans"

:0) There are people in the UK who think that other people have no right to an opinion on what happens in this country.

Subject: RE: BS: Umpqua: the gun was innocent...
From: Bill D
Date: 06 Oct 15 - 11:15 AM

I was away for the weekend:

Peter K.."..., what about your cops (and Navy Seals for that matter) taking priosners alive occasionally? And just generally shooting a few less people?

Of course.... we ALL want that. That is just a matter of math. As long as cops have guns, some will be careless and/or stupid. Hiring cops is a delicate matter..... you need people who are brave and willing enough to do the job, but you want to avoid those who just like carrying a gun and harassing people.... and even then, seemingly good cops who deal with the worst parts of society every day can 'lose it' under stress and make more headlines.
   The slightly encouraging news is that recently, various cops at various levels have been fired, indicted and/or prosecuted for giving in to their baser feelings.
And politically, several Democratic candidates have done the unthinkable in the last few days and challenged the NRA mentality directly, offering plans to control gun sales and establish better databases of guns and offenders. (yes, I can hear you thinking.."so what? Isn't that pretty weak as a response?"..... but it's a start, and more & more respected pundits are making strong responses along those lines.
   We are in a bad place, but there's no choice but to start from where we are and chip away at the edges of the insanity until we weaken the whole flawed system. If *I* had a magic button, 87.318% of all guns might just melt into plowshares one night... but lacking that, honest, clever folk are working at it every day.

Subject: RE: BS: Umpqua: the gun was innocent...
From: Bill D
Date: 06 Oct 15 - 11:45 AM

Howard Jones said "Removing guns from a society cannot be done overnight. However the UK and other European countries have managed it, over time, and on the whole have broad public support for doing so. "

Of course! But other countries didn't have nearly the amount.. either totals or % that we do. They also didn't have paranoid militia groups swearing to fight to the death for the 'right' to ummmm... fight to the death.
WE have a majority who favor serious controls and changes, but there is NO....I repeat ...NO way to have a simple national referendum to make overall changes. The process of amending the Constitution, great as it is for some issues, remains the stumbling block for issues where the process in Congress and ratification by the states is not subject to simple majority vote.

It's going to be a long, awkward fight.

Subject: RE: BS: Umpqua: the gun was innocent...
From: Donuel
Date: 06 Oct 15 - 10:12 PM

The fight to establish law to merely insist on the safety of seat belts (still not established for school buses) took 20 YEARS.

That fight was not complicated by Constitutional issues.

The cultural argument will eventually be won by saner attitudes.
The language arguments will be corralled and won ( for example the title of this thread will one day be identified as the evil sardonic descriptor that it is).
The number game will be understood to be enough is enough when death by guns equal one in one hundred (one million 300,000) per lifetime of 70 years.

The sane law will come to pass as the feelings of futility becomes one of utility and life giving truth.

Subject: RE: BS: Umpqua: the gun was innocent...
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Oct 15 - 07:23 AM

Would the emergence of a well-armed indigenous terrorist group focus minds ? Possibly one intepreting itself as a local militia.

Subject: RE: BS: Umpqua: the gun was innocent...
From: Jack Campin
Date: 07 Oct 15 - 08:19 AM

Would you let your kids play with your friends' guns?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-34384757

The upshot of that is no, you'd get a different set of friends.

Gun owners are a minority. The smaller and more marginalized a minority they get to be, the sooner the law will follow.

Shun them.

Subject: RE: BS: Umpqua: the gun was innocent...
From: GUEST,#
Date: 07 Oct 15 - 09:27 AM

"There are roughly 300 million guns in the United States—nearly enough for each citizen to own one. But those guns are concentrated in the hands of a minority of Americans. Nearly a third of adults owns a gun, according to a new study in the journal Injury Prevention. And gun ownership rates vary widely by state: Alaska tops the list with 62 percent of adults saying they own a firearm; Delaware is at the bottom with just 5 percent."

That is the lead paragraph for a good article at

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2015/06/gun-owners-study-one-in-three

Subject: RE: BS: Umpqua: the gun was innocent...
From: Greg F.
Date: 07 Oct 15 - 12:46 PM

Would the emergence of a well-armed indigenous terrorist group focus minds ?

Emergence? Plenty of those around already - have been for many years. Check the Southern Poverty Law Center website.

Subject: RE: BS: Umpqua: the gun was innocent...
From: GUEST,#
Date: 07 Oct 15 - 06:45 PM

" Michigan woman with concealed carry permit opens fire at alleged Home Depot shoplifters "

A new headline today. But the headline is a bit over the top. She fired at the shoplifters while they were making tracks in an SUV.

Subject: RE: BS: Umpqua: the gun was innocent...
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 08 Oct 15 - 01:52 AM

Does the crime of shoplifting carry the death-penalty in the US? I don't think so?

And, even if it did, shouldn't a judge, jury and due process of law be involved in the passing and carrying out of the sentence?

Subject: RE: BS: Umpqua: the gun was innocent...
From: Ebbie
Date: 08 Oct 15 - 02:28 AM

Yeh. Shop lifting has been upgraded to qualify for capital punishment.

I also like the story of the hero who tried to stop two men from making off with another man's vehicle. He fires multiple times, hits car owner in the head (he survives), gathers empty shells and flees.

Subject: RE: BS: Umpqua: the gun was innocent...
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 08 Oct 15 - 02:45 AM

LOL! (Although, in truth, it's not funny, is it?).

Although I believe that nobody (other than farmers and the armed forces) **needs** a gun, I do understand that, in a country where they are freely available and have been so since time immemorial, it might be considered acceptable to use a gun on someone who is physically attacking you. But to attempt to shoot someone who nicks your car?

FFS!

Subject: RE: BS: Umpqua: the gun was innocent...
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 08 Oct 15 - 08:55 AM

nicking your car... no.. that's well over the top..

But carrying a gun to folk club sessions in case someone get's too close to your guitar...????

..or insists on singing the 27th verse of a turgidly long ballad...?????? 😈

Subject: RE: BS: Umpqua: the gun was innocent...
From: Greg F.
Date: 08 Oct 15 - 09:06 AM

Dr. Ben Carson, Presidential Aspirant:

"There is no doubt that this senseless violence is breathtaking — but I never saw a body with bullet holes that was more devastating than taking the right to arm ourselves away."

Asshole.

Subject: RE: BS: Umpqua: the gun was innocent...
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 08 Oct 15 - 09:08 AM

Is he mad?

Subject: RE: BS: Umpqua: the gun was innocent...
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 08 Oct 15 - 09:21 AM

..as a Doctor.. perhaps Ben Carson sees sterilized guns as a valuable tool in surgery...?

.. Waging a war on cancer.. precision strikes.. shooting out invasive tumours...????? 😕

Subject: RE: BS: Umpqua: the gun was innocent...
From: Jack Campin
Date: 08 Oct 15 - 09:28 AM

Rupert Murdoch approves of him. Which probably means he's the next US President.

Though it appears Donald Trump is the discerning psycho's choice:

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/10/06/us/mother-of-oregon-gunman-wrote-of-keeping-firearms.html

Given the virtually identical scenario at Sandy Hook, maybe America needs some emergency legislation to stop Aspies owning guns. And stop them voting.

Subject: RE: BS: Umpqua: the gun was innocent...
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Oct 15 - 09:38 AM

"This time it was Christians singled out for death." --Keith A of Hertford....

Yes, and in the twisted logic so prevalent today, that spin will be interpreted as an "attack on religious liberty" and a renewed call for opposition to ...gay marriages.

Subject: RE: BS: Umpqua: the gun was innocent...
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 08 Oct 15 - 10:02 AM

someone (an Englishman) said to me last night:-

they want to disarm the people so they can do what they like. and if it kicks off, the people will be unarmed...

a point of view i had not thought of.

Subject: RE: BS: Umpqua: the gun was innocent...
From: Bill D
Date: 08 Oct 15 - 10:25 AM

"They" are NOT seeking to "disarm the people". That is a paranoid view of the far right militias.


The Democrats are quietly, but fervently, hoping for a Trump or Carson opponent. If the Repubs would listen they'd hear the ghost of Barry Goldwater warning them how it all works.

Subject: RE: BS: Umpqua: the gun was innocent...
From: Greg F.
Date: 08 Oct 15 - 10:37 AM

To today's lunatic Republicans, Barry Goldwater was a Commie; Better brain-dead than Red.

Subject: RE: BS: Umpqua: the gun was innocent...
From: Ebbie
Date: 08 Oct 15 - 06:51 PM

Bringing the conversation 'round to Trump (doesn't it always?) I like Jay Leno's comment: Some are saying that the GOP candidates will end up being Jeb Bush and Donald Trump, kind of like the Tortoise and the Bad Hair.

Subject: RE: BS: Umpqua: the gun was innocent...
From: Jack Campin
Date: 08 Oct 15 - 07:55 PM

The quotes from Harper-Mercer's mother are pretty gross:

http://heavy.com/news/2015/10/chris-harper-mercer-mother-mom-laurel-harper-facebook-guns-yahoo-father-torrance-california-oregon

You have to wonder what their dinner table conversations were like.

Subject: RE: BS: Umpqua: the gun was innocent...
From: Jack Campin
Date: 08 Oct 15 - 08:02 PM

That link might fail (the blickifier has a length limit and the end of the URL got cut off).

http://heavy.com/news/2015/10/chris-harper-mercer-mother-mom-laurel-harper-facebook-guns-yahoo-father-torrance-california-oregon-guns-stockpile-nurse-mental-illness/

Subject: RE: BS: Umpqua: the gun was innocent...
From: Greg F.
Date: 08 Oct 15 - 08:21 PM

And more lunacy from Ben Carson, Clown Prince of the Republican moronocracy:

"I think the likelihood of Hitler being able to accomplish his goals would have been greatly diminished if the people had been armed," Carson said. "I'm telling you there is a reason these dictatorial people take guns first."

The comments drew a swift response from the Anti-Defamation League. "Ben Carson has a right to his views on gun control, but the notion that Hitler's gun-control policy contributed to the Holocaust is historically inaccurate," said Jonathan Greenblatt, National Director of the organization".

[NOTE: Hitler actually relaxed controls on firearms.]

Subject: RE: BS: Umpqua: the gun was innocent...
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 08 Oct 15 - 08:31 PM

this letter was at the foot of that page.


Drolka Gamenovichy says:
October 6, 2015 at 1:53 am
If you believe this shooting actually occurred, you are blind in one eye and can't see out of the other. Take a look at all of these "shootings" over the past several years.

Come on, people. Snap out of your dream state and THINK! For God's sake, how many times will you allow this government to pull off the same, sloppy false flag M.O. before it dawns on you that they're now even recycling details from previous false flags.

Get out from in front of the boob tube, read from MANY sources, (this is a tough one) research, go for a walk and get some fresh air to start those synapses firing. If nothing else, LOOK (read from various sources and perspectives) at what event(s) immediately precede or occur simultaneously that our "leaders" might not want you to focus on, because surrounding EVERY one of these shooting hoaxes lurk, of course a "DRILL", plus a story the government and their sock puppet media want very badly to deflect your attention away from.

OH, and if you still haven't figured it out, the PTB (powers that be) WANT TO DISARM AMERICANS. PERIOD. That's the bottom line, and they have so many of these events prepped and ready to go when a story pops up that embarrasses them. Ever see the Help Wanted ads for "crises actors"? There are likely even some YouTube videos out there of crises actor training for some of these acts of THEATER.

Here's another idea…since these idiots are sloppy seconds the govt uses to plan and carry out these debacles, research the victims and shooter. Sandy Hook was the ultimate in loose ends and holes through which a Boeing 747 could fly. The "victims" were part of Hollywood assembled families to whom the govt gave homes to in the area a year or two in advance, they've all mysteriously vanished from the area…ok there's so many problems with this story and I don't have all night. Go look it up. I DO want to sorrowfully inform you that one of the Sandy Hook victims was later murdered a second time in a similar hoax staged in the Middle East. You can look that one up as well.

Ever notice that the "victim's" "loved ones" are immediately available and anxious to get in front of a TV camera? Like within minutes! They always speak of "forgiving" the shooter, are smiling and inappropriately happy and at least mention gun control at some point. Who does that? I don't know about you, but I would be inconsolable…a raging mess and in NO mood to forgive ANYONE, least of all the one who just murdered my loved one! What unfeeling robots write these crappy plays? Washington and Hollywood, the people that write the scripts for the crises actors AND FOR THE TV NEWS PEOPLE!

The PWB use the "Higalean Dialect", which is:
PROBLEM
REACTION
SOLUTION.
Hence the stories are pre-written for the actors, but also for the media. Ask yourself: "What do the PTB wish me to believe is the solution, and how are they manipulating me to come to the same, or agree with their solution?" What is their solution? It's their ultimate goal…GUN CONTROL. Actually, their ultimate goal is total domination, but we are their stumbling block.

Now you may think that's an awful lot of trouble to go to in terms of the years and money spent (and actual murdering of participants that started asking questions). But is it too much trouble? NO! Not if the PTB want to run everything. The biggest obstacle for them is actually GOD almighty. Nonetheless, they believe their biggest obstacle is you and me. All armed Americans, not to mention the dreaded trained former military that live among us…folks they know we outnumber them…by a long shot. (Pun intended.)

I beseech you to WAKE UP! We need your help to take back our country from the treasonous, lying, murderous, pedophile, evil heathens trying to run the real USA into the ground. I say "real", because on Feb 21, 1871 those traitors that comprised congress illegally voted to start up the UNITED STATES (all caps), which is a corporation that took over and has done extreme damage to all, especially our brave mitary who have fought and died for this corporation in wars used as a front for their multi-trillion drug importation and sales.

Any of these things I've mentioned one can find legitimate data to back up these truths.

to which one can only say wow! how many Americans believe this stuff!!!!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Umpqua: the gun was innocent...
From: GUEST,#
Date: 09 Oct 15 - 08:15 AM

"One dead, three injured after shooting at university in Arizona"

Today's headline from Reuters.

Subject: RE: BS: Umpqua: the gun was innocent...
From: Greg F.
Date: 09 Oct 15 - 10:38 AM

Q: How many Americans believe this stuff?

A: Too fucking many.

Wasn't there some discussion a while back about the accessibility of mental health services in the "Best Country In Yhe World".....

Subject: RE: BS: Umpqua: the gun was innocent...
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 09 Oct 15 - 12:59 PM

How can any mental health service even begin to address a problem,
if a mass of the population are experiencing the same delusional condition, share the same paranoid fantasy,
and their society, including many politicians, accept it as their norm of reality...???

USA [and by extension.. the rest of the world] is f@cked !!!! 😨

Subject: RE: BS: Umpqua: the gun was innocent...
From: Greg F.
Date: 09 Oct 15 - 06:04 PM

Beats the hell outa me, rocker- but there you have it!

Say it loud! We're dumb, delusional and proud! USA! USA! USA!

Subject: RE: BS: Umpqua: the gun was innocent...
From: Jack Campin
Date: 09 Oct 15 - 06:17 PM

Two shot, one dead at Texas Southern University today. I wouldn't have expected Texas to be left out.

C'mon Florida, you can do it.

Subject: RE: BS: Umpqua: the gun was innocent...
From: Jack Campin
Date: 09 Oct 15 - 06:40 PM

This is a kinda entertaining read (for the sort of person whose normal reading matter is Byzantine history and biographies of the Borgias):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_school_shootings_in_the_United_States

Satire just can't keep up, can it?

http://htmlgiant.com/word-spaces/the-generations-of-america/

Subject: RE: BS: Umpqua: the gun was innocent...
From: Jack Campin
Date: 09 Oct 15 - 07:54 PM

And from NBC's report on the Texas shooting:

Friday's shooting was the TSU's third this week. On Tuesday, a man was shot in the abdomen on a roadway that leads through the university. He was hospitalized in serious but stable condition.

I suggest reading that article about Harper-Mercer's mother. She seems to have known everything there is to know about what it's like be shot in the guts.

Subject: RE: BS: Umpqua: the gun was innocent...
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 10 Oct 15 - 03:30 PM

youre really just going to have to live with it. so theres no point in discussing it.

not if what guy says is right about there being 300 million guns in the USA.

you could not possibly confiscate all those guns. and anyway, what about people who hid them and didn't give them up.

its an impossible situation.

lets face it. you're stuck with it. even if they brought in gun control at midnight tonight.

you've got to be practical.

Subject: RE: BS: Umpqua: the gun was innocent...
From: Bill D
Date: 11 Oct 15 - 03:33 PM

Practical means making a start somewhere........ if no more 'legal' fast-firing, large magazine weapons were available, and it was illegal to carry the ones that are already out there, that would be one step.

Subject: RE: BS: Umpqua: the gun was innocent...
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 11 Oct 15 - 03:44 PM

well good luck with that!

i reckon collecting up the first seven hundred thousand might be the toughest...

Subject: RE: BS: Umpqua: the gun was innocent...
From: Ebbie
Date: 11 Oct 15 - 06:21 PM

Hmmmm An interesting experiment comes to mind:

How about if furriners assure us USAians - repeatedly and loudly - that there is nothing we can do about our culture's fixation on guns. Would we then look about for ways that we *can* do it?

Subject: RE: BS: Umpqua: the gun was innocent...
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 11 Oct 15 - 06:48 PM

300 million...its imponderable!

Subject: RE: BS: Umpqua: the gun was innocent...
From: Greg F.
Date: 11 Oct 15 - 07:50 PM

How about if furriners assure us USAians - repeatedly and loudly - that there is nothing we can do about our culture's fixation on guns. Would we then look about for ways that we *can* do it?

No.

Subject: RE: BS: Umpqua: the gun was innocent...
From: Ebbie
Date: 11 Oct 15 - 09:34 PM

Ya sure?

Subject: RE: BS: Umpqua: the gun was innocent...
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 11 Oct 15 - 09:41 PM

you collect the first 150 million

i'll collect the other 150 million

you first...

Subject: RE: BS: Umpqua: the gun was innocent...
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 12 Oct 15 - 04:15 AM

Not like the notoriously 'can-do' USA-ians to sound so hopeless as to their capabilities of achieving a desired end. Where there's a will there's a way...

BUT what is missing is the Will -- the Desire -- for the End.

Now stir yourselves and achieve this disarmament of the irresponsible, before yet-another significant %·age of your population gets massacred by yet-another trigger-happy ɷ·hole!

Go on. Let's see-ya...!

Can't do it? Yah-yah-yah -- how pathetic!

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: Umpqua: the gun was innocent...
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 12 Oct 15 - 04:28 AM

It's going to be a long-term thing, to be sure. Just a suggestion:-

How about legislating that all firearms must be licensed by a competent body after a rigorous process of application [like here in the UK]; every unlicensed weapon to be handed in within a reasonable period -- say 6 months: after which possession of an unlicensed weapon would become a federal offence punishable by a 10 year sentence?

Something along those lines might just work. Why not give it a whirl?

≈M≈

Now come on -- let's hear all the reasons why such a process couldn't possibly work in the freedom-loving USofA...

Subject: RE: BS: Umpqua: the gun was innocent...
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 12 Oct 15 - 07:12 AM

... and, to pre-empt an obvious potential objection, the owner of every weapon thus surrendered to be compensated by refund of its full market value. Would be worth every penny, would it not?, in terms of public safety and lives saved.