Review: World music - a white middle class fraud

Subject: RE: Review: World music - a white middle class fra
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Jun 06 - 09:02 AM

OK Les, just what is 'world music'?

And why is it 'bollocks' or 'trolling' to discuss the race and class implications of the term in a music forum that uses said term all the time?

I notice no one attacked the only known person of color contributing to this forum and thread, who said essentially the same thing I am saying?

Why is that? Because the forum dynamic makes it easy to attack an anonymous poster, which makes you feel safe and brave in attacking someone who says they think something is racist?

People here sure are paranoid about any and all frank discussions of race and class in this forum.

FWIW, I heartily agree with this statement by Penguin Egg, the originator of the thread:

"This middle class fraud has rambled on like an old jalopy for the best part of 25 years and yet has failed to fire the imagination of anyone except white middle class journalists and DJs who tirelessly peddle this "music" to an uninterested public."

I believe one of the reasons why the public is disinterested in 'world music' is because they have become much more knowledgeable and educated consumers of music, hence don't require labels like this.

Not only do I think the label itself is racist, I also think it has failed to capture the imagination of music lovers and the music buying public.

They are seeking out and buying a lot of music that has been labelled 'world music' but I would argue it isn't 'world music' they go looking for. They go looking for music by artist and genre, certainly. But as others have pointed out, one is just as likely to hit upon New Age music when one goes in search of 'world music' as they are the Mahotella Queens.

Subject: RE: Review: World music - a white middle class fraud
From: GUEST,Art Thieme
Date: 16 Jun 06 - 09:04 AM

My post above related to the USA's attitudes toward the cul-de-sac called World Music. It's interesting to note the U.K.'s points of view. As some have said here, it does seem to come down to what we like being uppermost in our minds and preferences. I don't see the recism of it, but some ethnocentricity is there---as is the human nature of it all. I don't feel the anger some exhibit here is justified much by the topic and it's lack of importance generally. It's simply not liking what the newbies have morphed things into.----Is what is!

Art Thieme

Subject: RE: Review: World music - a white middle class fraud
From: Azizi
Date: 16 Jun 06 - 09:14 AM

In my opinion, if world music does not includes European music, then it is racist. Perhaps that was not its' intent, but to create an umbrella category for all else but European music, for marketing purposes or whatever, can certainly lead to a they/we frame of reference.

But-then again-racism may not be the correct term since "European" is not really the same as "White". After all, there are people who are European who are non-White.

I'm wondering, are Eastern European music and music composed and performed by European minority groups such as Travelers {who after all are European, right?}included in the "World Music" category?

If not, then we aren't talking racism, but something like mainstream Western European music in multiple categories and much else from people of color, Eastern Europeans, and European minority groups lumped into that umbrella World Music category.

Those with the power define what is and is not mainstream, classical, folk and World.

And too often "what is not" is considered to be "less than". Hence the psychological implications and consequences of these types of divisions.

Subject: RE: Review: World music - a white middle class fra
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Jun 06 - 09:31 AM

Azizi, as I understand the use of the term in the US, the inclusion of white European and American music traditions under the 'world music' umbrella is rare. You notice how countess richard states unequivocally that American bluegrass music is NOT world music, but English traditional music IS world music?

In the UK, the inclusion of white European music traditions under the 'world music' umbrella is more recent. Initially, it was an all-encompassing term to define any music that was (as Ian Anderson puts it) 'not from here'. In other words, it was a term used to categorize music from Africa, Asia, Latin America, etc. with one label. Like 'race music' was once used, in other words.

Nowadays, English traditional musicians & audiences especially, love to park themselves under the world music banner. They are trying to market & identify themselves in a way that associates them with a more popular 'exotic other' music category, because their fellow citizens perceive their own music culture traditions as boring and/or too strongly attached to English nationalist sentimentalism.

In other words, in the UK especially, this term is awash with race implications. IMO, it hasn't caught on in the US in the same way it has in the UK, because the dynamics of race and class in the UK are different than they are in the US.

Therefore, it is ridiculous to claim the politics of race and class has nothing to do with the term.

Subject: RE: Review: World music - a white middle class fraud
From: Les from Hull
Date: 16 Jun 06 - 09:57 AM

Well of course you are entitled to your opinion GUEST. As Art Theime has said there seems to be a difference between attitudes and opinions about 'world music' between the UK and USA. I will continue to post about my own knowledge and opinion, not what I assume.

You say that the public are 'much more knowledgeable and educated consumers of music', well that's not my experience in the UK. I also know next to nothing about New Age music, but I don't immediately assume it's something to identify music that old people like me won't like.

If you read some of the earier posts in ths thread you'll find out a bit more about what world music actually means in the UK. Just because our imperialist polititians seem to have similar values doesn't mean that we're in the same country.

And your crack about 'easy to attack anonymous posters' - well we both know how to solve that, don't we? Come out from u8nder the bridge.

Subject: RE: Review: World music - a white middle class fraud
From: Azizi
Date: 16 Jun 06 - 09:59 AM

Just for the 'record', I wrote and submitted my 16 Jun 06 - 09:14 AM
post before reading most of the exchange from Guest and others about whether the label World Music is racist.

If my assumption is correct that Guest is referring to me when she {or he} wrote that "I notice no one attacked the only known person of color contributing to this forum and thread, who said essentially the same thing I am saying?", then for the record I do have to say that I am in agreement with Guest's position that the World Music label is racist and-probably-classist.

However, Guest, I should clarify that you would not be correct that I am the only known person of color on this forum...There's a few others, and I hope that number grows.

And Guest, you may be aware that there have been a number of "frank discussions of race and class in this forum".

As to whether some people are paranoid about those discussions or not, I wouldn't know. Of course, I've been accused of being paranoid about race, but that doesn't bother me.

And btw, I'm certainly not angry, and I don't sense anger from Guest either {but she or he can speak about that if the spirit moves her or him to do so}.

All this to say, Guest 16 Jun 06 - 09:31 AM, that I appreciate your comments.

Subject: RE: Review: World music - a white middle class fra
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Jun 06 - 10:10 AM

Not angry either. Just talkin' happily under the bridge here. Anybody who wants to join me under the bridge is welcome. Those who want to spit on me, not.

Though I did get annoyed when what looked like some bluegrass bashing was getting started.

Subject: RE: Review: World music - a white middle class fraud
From: Ernest
Date: 16 Jun 06 - 10:20 AM

I don`t think the term world music had an racist intention. It is a label under which you can put various styles of music to help selling it.

Did you ever see an advertisement saying: "This product is inferior. Now buy it - it is just as expensive as top quality"?

Regards
Ernest

Subject: RE: Review: World music - a white middle class fraud
From: Big Mick
Date: 16 Jun 06 - 10:23 AM

Bullcrap. GUEST, as usual, seeks to set up whole arguments based on phoney and incorrect premises:iethe inclusion of white European and American music traditions under the 'world music' umbrella is rare. It is not rare in any of the shops or outlets I have been in in the US. The term is also fluid based on what is in. Example: While Irish music is hot it has its own section. Later Latin originated music became hot and Irish/Scottish/Celtic was relegated to the "World Music" sections.

The term is simply a category in a marketing scheme. I am far more destressed by the "new age" and "celtic" terms than I am by this. This has to do with where one looks in a music shop. GUEST, as usual, seeks to promote an agenda. That is why it is a troll bait, nothing more.


Mick

Subject: RE: Review: World music - a white middle class fraud
From: Peace
Date: 16 Jun 06 - 10:24 AM

Funny,

I have never seen music to be White, Black, Yellow, Red, Brown, etc. I have seen it as being to my liking or not.

Subject: RE: Review: World music - a white middle class fra
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Jun 06 - 10:24 AM

It doesn't have to have conscious racist intentions to be racist though, Ernest.

When we don't examine our own attitudes and motives first though (which you can't really do without reflecting on your own prejudices), we easily fall prey to people who will examine our attitudes and motives once we walk out the door.

I never said I thought the people who cooked up the term 'world music' intended to be racist.

I do think they failed to challenge their own cultural assumptions about race and class before putting the term out into the world, though.

Subject: RE: Review: World music - a white middle class fraud
From: Ernest
Date: 16 Jun 06 - 10:35 AM

Guest, in the 19th century many people looked down upon the Irish people as inferiour. Does this make it racist when you label something as "Irish Folk"?

Any description of an group of people CAN be meant offensive of course, but this depends on the user. It also CAN get such a meaning if the general public understands it that way - but I don´t think this is the case with "world music", there are too many people who like it (otherwise we wouldn`t have this discussion).

Best
Ernest

Subject: RE: Review: World music - a white middle class fra
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Jun 06 - 10:47 AM

No Ernest, in my opinion the circumstances regarding the Irish wouldn't be defined as racism. Racism is rooted in prejudice based upon the color of a cultural group(s)' skin.

Ethnic bigotry is rooted in prejudice based upon culture, though. Just like religious bigotry is rooted in prejudice based upon religion. In the case of the Irish in the 19th century, the bigotry had to do with both their culture and their religion. That makes it somewhat unique, though not really. I consider bigotry against Irish people in 19th century America to have functioned more like anti-Semitism than racism, actually. Because anti-Semitism also has cultural roots, especially for Eastern European Jews.

But I understand it isn't easy to draw these distinctions, and that reasonable people can disagree about it.

Which is always better than spewing angry invectives, like a few posters here are doing because they apparently have issues with my choice to remain anonymous, or because they disagree with my opinion.

They are, of course, free to disagree with me or anyone else here. But they don't need to drag the level of discourse into the gutter, like Big Mick just tried to do.

Subject: RE: Review: World music - a white middle class fraud
From: GUEST,chilled out global vibesGuest
Date: 16 Jun 06 - 10:54 AM

"W O M A D"


"World Of Music And Dance" ???


.. tried my hardest.. but nope.. cant find any substantial racist
implications in that short bundle of words..

quite the contrary in fact..

always seemed a positive and progessive movement
to confront musical parochrialism and apartheid..


..so now its shortened by lazy feckers in music marketing and journalism

to mere simple


"World Music"

thats racist !!??

feck knows..

bring your own obsessive agendas to the festival picnic blanket
and we'll
all see who's got the biggest!

Subject: RE: Review: World music - a white middle class fraud
From: Ernest
Date: 16 Jun 06 - 10:55 AM

OK, lets take a different example: Would you see the label "Klezmer" as anti-semititic?
Best
Ernest

Subject: RE: Review: World music - a white middle class fra
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Jun 06 - 11:06 AM

No, because I understand the word to mean something musically specific in Yiddish. To me, it simply means secular Jewish music that drew on earlier religious music traditions.

Rather like American gospel music morphing into a multiplicity of descendant secular music genres.

Subject: RE: Review: World music - a white middle class fraud
From: Ernest
Date: 16 Jun 06 - 11:06 AM

And also: if eastern european music is put into the world music box (as was stated before), the term can`t be racist because those countries are inhabited by white (or better "caucasian")people. Q.E.D.
Best
Ernest

Subject: RE: Review: World music - a white middle class fra
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Jun 06 - 11:09 AM

While that might technically make your argument true for some people, it's more an anomaly for me.

Eastern Europe has always been 'other' to Western Europe and Anglo America.

Subject: RE: Review: World music - a white middle class fra
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Jun 06 - 11:19 AM

In the same way that being Irish has always been 'other' to being English/British or Anglo American.

So it is easy to see how some (not all by any means!) Eastern European and Irish music slipped in to the 'world music' box early on.

Nowadays, it seems to really annoy English trad folk off that Irish trad seems to fit so easily in with the rest of the world, while English trad continues to hammer away in relative obscurity.

And I love English trad. But it isn't the music itself I'm talking about here, though.

I'm talking about race and class assumptions that go into labelling music, when done by white European and American music industry types.

Subject: RE: Review: World music - a white middle class fraud
From: GUEST,chilled out global vibes Guest
Date: 16 Jun 06 - 11:36 AM

these guys are racist !!!!??

http://www.arcmusic.co.uk/index.php?page=about

Subject: RE: Review: World music - a white middle class fraud
From: Ernest
Date: 16 Jun 06 - 11:55 AM

I think these are merely your assumptions. "Other" is something quite different from "racist". As is the word "world". Of course you are free to categorize things by yourself, but for a more general consensus (which i feel is the objective of this discussion) I feel we should have a broader base. So what is everyone else thinking about this?

Greek music is also often found in the world music box - and ancient Greece was one of the cradles of civilisation, by the way.

Subject: RE: Review: World music - a white middle class fra
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Jun 06 - 12:20 PM

No Ernest, they aren't just my assumptions. There are others, especially musicians of color who you would never find posting to this forum, who feel that the term 'world music' has been used to exploit them and their music cultures.

It isn't just music that does this. Nowadays, we have new code words/terms for race that are PC, and used almost exclusively by whites to define people of color. World music is one of those terms.

Don't want to get into citing chapter and verse cut-and-paste wars to "prove" someone is right, and someone is wrong.

I believe we call all learn from just discussing the subject.

'Other' is, to me and many thoughtful people, at the roots of all forms of prejudice, including racism--not excluding it, which is what I think you keep trying to do in this context.

And when it comes to the European constructs of race, we know that the British especially defined certain European cultures, like the Irish and the Germans and modern Greeks as 'other races' that weren't English.

I understand and appreciate this earlier historic categorization of Europe by race is still confounding to some people. But it is still easy to find references to it, even on the internet. Just try googling "Irish race" or "Mediterranean race" or "German race" and you will see what I'm talking about. First, it was sort of regional. Northern Europeans were perceived as being very different from Southern Europeans. Germans and Celts are often thrown together by ancient classical writers. This isn't anything new. But when you don't know the history of race constructs in Europe, it can get pretty confusing. Especially when you try and racially sort people in a contemporary vein, as the term 'world music' attempts to do.

Initially, 'world music' was intended to mean those 'other European races' because there is still an undercurrent in British identity especially, that draws from that historic well that defined southern Europe as a 'Mediterranean race'.

Does that make any sense to you?

Subject: RE: Review: World music - a white middle class fraud
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 16 Jun 06 - 12:50 PM

countess richard states unequivocally that American bluegrass music is NOT world music, but English traditional music IS world music

I didn't say anything about English trad though I do believe that England is, belatedly in comparison to say Scotland and Ireland, joining the world, as borne out by appearances at WOMAD and WOMEX by some of our fniest musicians such as Bellowhead, EAC and Eliza Carthy band. As for bluegrass, I said I could see no need to include this hybrid, commercialised genre with no true sense of roots, place or community it in the 'world' rack in music shops as an eponymous one undoubtedly already existed. Other local or regional American musics such as blues, Cajun, conjunto, Appalachian or musics of immigrant communities clearly would, however, fall under the 'world' banner.

As for Mr Shamble's wholesale condemnation of students on the Newcastle tradmus degree as 'middle-class' with rich parents, he is clearly unaware of one I know who supports herself with three jobs because she has no family to speak of (and not of 'travelling' stock anyway) and receives no financial support whatsoever. She's there because she loves the music and is extremely talented. She may be one of the few who actually makes it out there as a performer as many of the others I know are fully aware that the industry is unlikely to be able to support jobs in it for more than a few. The vast majority of schooleavers nowadays go on to some form of higher education as otherwise they would be unlikely to find any sort of work. The Newcastle students know how fortunate they are to be doing their degrees in a field they love. Doubtless, they'd all be singing, dancing and playing anyway but the important thing is that they are doing it.

Subject: RE: Review: World music - a white middle class fraud
From: Ernest
Date: 16 Jun 06 - 12:51 PM

Record companies exploit musicians of colour and caucasian musicians alike. Happens with European/American musical styles also - think of all those folk-punk stuff: traditional music played amplified in a punk style. Like it or not, music and entertainment is an industry now. This may be exploitation, but it is not racism.
And what would happen without that exploitation? Those musicians would not sell their records. Which is especially bad for musicians from poor countries who could not make a living otherwise. If people buy their records, it shows that they value the artists culture.

Are you sure the term world music existed as a label for record sales in the times of those ideological aberrations you described?
I doubt this.
No, it still does not make sense.
As I will be offline now, have a nice evening.
Best
Ernest
P.S.: I think our musical tastes are not that far apart. Nice to know that there is something we can agree upon!

Subject: RE: Review: World music - a white middle class fraud
From: Little Hawk
Date: 16 Jun 06 - 12:58 PM

Yeah, everybody gets exploited...one way or another. It is those who can only see exploitation or racism when it's inflicted on them that worry me.

Subject: RE: Review: World music - a white middle class fra
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Jun 06 - 01:31 PM

But the history of their exploitation is very different. Profoundly different.

Some exploitation is racist. Not to admit that is, IMO, equivalent to saying racism doesn't exist in the music industry. Clearly it does, regardless of the current popularity of R & B, hip hop, and rap music.

I also disagree that musicians must be exploited to be financially successful.

I do agree, Ernest, that we do seem to share a lot of musical tastes! I agree, 'tis a good thing.

As I went to click on this thread again, I re-read Penguin Egg's opening post. I can see how people interpreted what they said as being opposed to the music/musicians.

I have no problem with the music and musicians inadvertently caught under or deliberately putting themselves under the 'world music' banner. But I do have a problem with the term 'world music' simply because I see it as a contemporary PC euphemism for 'race music'.

I also find the term to be, in a practical sense, largely irrelevant to both the global music industry and the global music listening public. Not universally, but nearly so. There are exceptions to that, and the main one seems to be among English trad and folk music (in the British sense of folk music) afficionados in Britain. Who aren't a very large percent of the planet's music listening public, hence my claim the term is "nearly universally irrelevant".

I also think, practically speaking, it is a moronic, meaningless term. I find the term 'roots music' to be much more useful. Roots music, to me, simply means music from a certain culture.

The term 'roots music' seems to have evolved to describe more hybrid music, that is, a blend of the contemporary and traditional, whether from one's own or another culture(s).

When you use the term 'roots music' most people in the US 50 and under will know pretty much what you are talking about. Use the term 'world music' and their eyes glass over or they think you are trying to trick them into listening to folk or new age music. It is perceived by people I know as bland, white bread sorts of fluffy stuff.

I know world music is perceived very differently in the UK. We all get that. What we don't accept is that Brittania rules the air waves.

Subject: RE: Review: World music - a white middle class fraud
From: Peace
Date: 16 Jun 06 - 01:59 PM

Best refrain line/hook I've heard in years:

Artist/Band: Nichols Joe
Lyrics for Song: Tequila Makes Her Clothes Fall Off
Lyrics for Album: III
SHE SAID i'M GOING OUT WITH MY GIRLFRIENDS
MAGUARITAS AT THE HOLIDAY INN
OH MERCY...MY ONLY THOUGHT
WAS TEQUILA MAKES HER CLOTHES FALL OFF

I TOLD HER PUT AN EXTRA LAYER ON
I KNOW WHAT HAPPENS WHEN SHE DRINKS PATRON
HER CLOSETS MISSING HALF THE THINGS SHE BOUGHT
TEQUILA MAKES HER CLOTHES FALL OFF

CH....SHE'LL START BY KICKING OUT OF HER SHOES
LOSE AN EARRING IN HER DRINK
LEAVE HER JACKET IN THE BATH ROOM STALL
DROP A CONTACT DOWN THE SINK

THEM PANTYHOSE AIN'T GONNA LAST TOO LONG
IF THE D J PUTS BON JOVI ON
SHE MIGHT COME HOME IN A TABLECLOTH
TEQUILA MAKES HER CLOTHES FALL OFF

SOLO

SHE CAN HANDLE ANY CHAMPAIGNE BRUNCH
BRIDAL SHOWER WITH BACARDI PUNCH
JELLO SHOOTERS FULL OF SMIRNOFF...
BUT TEQUILA MAKES HER CLOTHES FALL OFF

CHORUS

SHE DON'T MEAN NOTHING
SHE'S JUST HAVING FUN
TOMORROW SHE'LL SAY
OH WHAT HAVE I DONE
HER FRIENDS WILL JOKE ABOUT THE STUFF SHE LOST
CAUSE TEQUILA MAKES HER CLOTHES FALL OFF

Subject: RE: Review: World music - a white middle class fr
From: greg stephens
Date: 16 Jun 06 - 02:07 PM

Anonymous accusations of racism never seem to be very helpful in discussions about folk music(or indeed anything else)

Subject: RE: Review: World music - a white middle class fraud
From: The Shambles
Date: 16 Jun 06 - 02:17 PM

As for Mr Shamble's wholesale condemnation of students on the Newcastle tradmus degree as 'middle-class' with rich parents, he is clearly unaware of one I know who supports herself with three jobs because she has no family to speak of (and not of 'travelling' stock anyway) and receives no financial support whatsoever.

I have of course made such no condemnation of any of these individuals.

My concern is a general one, perhaps not one shared by those who feel such courses to be a good thing but who may not really be too sure why. I tend to think that all higher education should not just be limited to ensuring that students obtain the sort employment advantages they pay for - and which will enable them to later pay back the cost.

Our music has survived pretty well up to now without such things. But I fear that now such things exist I suspect that they will be made to look to be a great success.

At least the future teachers of these subjects coming from these ranks will now have the formal qualifications to enable them to obtain these positions and will no doubt be favoured in the selection process over otherwise perfectly able applicants who may not. For in all truth, apart from this, I can see few other employment opportunities.

Subject: RE: Review: World music - a white middle class fra
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Jun 06 - 02:25 PM

You forgot to say "in my opinion" Mr. Stephens.

Actually, I've noticed a few people engaging in a perfectly useful conversation with me about racism here.

So perhaps the problem with my anonymity is yours? Has anyone ever suggested to you that refraining from dictating to others what they should think might be a worthwhile endeavor for you?

If you'd like to climb down off the high horse and join me under the bridge here, I'd be happy to pass you the bottle in the bag for a swig or too.

If not, you could keep riding the high horse right on by if the company doesn't suit you. No harm done.

Subject: RE: Review: World music - a white middle class fraud
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 16 Jun 06 - 03:04 PM

'Roots music'? Most of the music marketed under the 'World' label is not foundation music, but contemporary and fusion. A minute part is roots music from a 'certain' culture since all cultures today are mixed. Except in a historical context, 'roots music' is meaningless.
The online "RootsWorld" negates its title by reviewing and discussing music that is the result of "cross-cultural pollination"- true of almost all current music.

Looking at Hawaiian music (trying to get a somewhat isolated region), as 'roots' music we may have a few hulas and chants of pre-European type, but the music quickly developed far beyond that, adding, to the Polynesian-East Asian base, elements first from European and American sources but now containing African and Caribbean influences (e. g., reggae- which is American Indian, European and African 'fusion').

'World Music' is used mostly in Europe, but is frequently heard in American marketing as well, to group "the many genres of non-western music which were previously described as "folk music" or "ethnic music," succinctly described as "music from out there." (Wikipedia, my least favorite reference, but, in this case, usable). The BBC has developed categories and awards for World Music.

Almost none is intrinsically 'roots' music, a form having interest more to music historians than to contemporary musicians, regardless of their ancestry or geographical situation.

The big American marketers use terms like 'international' (with subcategories ,including zydeco, Latin, Mexico, Celtic, Far East and Asia, reggae, etc., some usable and some hopeless). The BBC classification makes more sense.

Subject: RE: Review: World music - a white middle class fra
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Jun 06 - 03:41 PM

"The BBC classification makes more sense."

To the British, maybe. To Americans, no. I'd have to agree that the "Roots World" name is just as bad as 'world music'. Perhaps it is because it attempts to straddle a divide that can't be straddled? I don't know. But it is a ridiculous and meaningless name.

When I say 'roots music' is a serviceable term in a US context, what I mean is, the term 'roots' is used in the US to apply to American traditional, reggae, rock, country, blues, and some other genres. So if you say Cuban roots music, people have an American context to compare it to, though much is lost in the translation.

Yes, in the US we also use that despicable and inaccurate term "international" to describe music festivals where the enough of the acts comes from outside the US. However, we don't find the use of that term in association with music to be all that difficult to suss out the meaning.

WOMAD is a purely British phenomenon & export. Sure they've had token festivals in far flung places that once were familiar to the Empire. But was that because the Sri Lankans were screaming for the Drummers of Burundi to come play for them in their post-tsunami era? It was organized & promoted by the same British and European organizers who organize all the European festivals.

How many Sri Lankan musicians played, where were they put on the bill, and how much were they paid compared to the Drummers of Burundi and the British and American acts? As I recall, they had exactly one Sri Lankan act. In my view, that is tokenism. Especially considering that the first languages of Sri Lanka aren't English, but Sinhalese and Tamil.

WOMAD failed in the US because it wasn't needed (we already had our own festivals) and because it was also in direct competition with already established multi-cultural and/or international music festivals. Sure they blamed the US government, but the real reason WOMAD rarely held festivals in North America is because of lack of interest & ticket sales.

It also failed because word quickly got out that the organizers like Peter Gabriel paid put themselves at the top of the bill & paid themselves on a different scale than the 'world musicians'. When some of the 'world' American acts they tried to sign got wind of that and pulled out, there was WOMAD with egg on their faces.

WOMAD could have done great here, but their arrogance and cultural blinders stood in the way of bringing a great British festival to the US.

Subject: RE: Review: World music - a white middle class fra
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Jun 06 - 03:58 PM

OK, finally found a fairly recent US mainstream article about use of the term 'world music' and it's current relevance. Just so you know at least some of what I'm talking about, here you are.

Subject: RE: Review: World music - a white middle class fraud
From: Azizi
Date: 16 Jun 06 - 04:39 PM

Great find, Guest!

Thanks for sharing it.

Subject: RE: Review: World music - a white middle class fra
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Jun 06 - 04:54 PM

My pleasure.

Subject: RE: Review: World music - a white middle class fraud
From: Wolfgang
Date: 17 Jun 06 - 09:18 AM

All labels are useful if they help finding what one is looking for. "World music" even can be music from Germany. There are a lot of people from quite different ethnic backgrounds living in our coutry who like to play music. The neighbours who also like playing music come from a different background and know a different music. But they like to play together. So the outcome may be a potpourri of music from different parts of the world played on different instruments originally not made for the music they play now. There's nothing wrong with that if people like it.

So you could hear a Hungarian dance played on an African instrument together with a fiddle and a trumpet, the next piece could be a traditional German song with a half Scandinavian and half near East instrumentation and so on. In some moods I really like that music. Would there be a better label for a mixture of traditional music (mixture even within the tracks) from all over the world played and recorded in Germany than "World music"?

Subject: RE: Review: World music - a white middle class fraud
From: The Shambles
Date: 17 Jun 06 - 11:10 AM

Would there be a better label for a mixture of traditional music (mixture even within the tracks) from all over the world played and recorded in Germany than "World music"?

How about just labelling it music?

Subject: RE: Review: World music - a white middle class fraud
From: melodeonboy
Date: 17 Jun 06 - 07:05 PM

Well, if I were looking for (black) rap music, I wouldn't look in the world music section of a record shop, whereas if I were looking for (white) Norwegian fiddle music, I definitely would. Er...., so this proves conclusively that "world music" is a racist term!?????

As for saying "how about just labelling it music", that's a bit like going to the greengrocer's and asking him "Can I have a vegetable, please."

Subject: RE: Review: World music - a white middle class fra
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Jun 06 - 08:45 PM

I guess I just don't understand what the problem is looking in a couple of places in a music store for CDs I might be interested in. When I go into a music shop with the intent to find CDs, I do that anyway.

So what is wrong with an international music section? A roots music section? Sections divided by continents? Countries? Regions?

What is the problem with flipping through a couple hundred CDs, anyway? I love doing it. I'm not stupid. I am perfectly capable of asking staff if I need help, or doing more research on my own.

It is supposed to be a labor of love.

Subject: RE: Review: World music - a white middle class fraud
From: GUEST,Joe_F
Date: 17 Jun 06 - 09:04 PM

Maybe it's like the aisle in the supermarket that's labeled "International Foods"? The plain English word would be "foreign"; but in certain US subcultures, including commerce & journalism, that word is considered offensive. "International" is the usual euphemism, but perhaps that is too long for the small, mobile signs in record stores.

--- Joe Fineman    [e-mail]

||: If you jump off the train before it crashes and don't break your neck, you'll probably be bitten by a snake. :||

Subject: RE: Review: World music - a white middle class fraud
From: GUEST,Art Thieme
Date: 17 Jun 06 - 09:25 PM

In the early 1960s I had a day job in a record store that, back then, called itself the 'world's largest record shop'! That was Rose Records in Chicago. We sold LPs---the 12-inch discs. One entire block in length, they had one isle devoted to International Music. Every country had their own bin of records (or several bins of records). The countries were separated alphabetically. And this did seem a rather good way to do it. ---- I'm not sure what I'm getting at, but we did have a system.

Art

Subject: RE: Review: World music - a white middle class fraud
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 17 Jun 06 - 11:07 PM

ijust read all this


fuck it..!!

..all us musicians with a love and enthusiam for discovering music

from nations and places all aroud the world


are imperialist exploitive racists..


and probably culture rapists as well..


fuck off inellectual academic theoretical wankers..!!!


stop making my head hurrt !!

when i wAke up tomorrow


i hope i'll forget i ever typed this..



io like farmhouse cider and tunes and rythms from all arounr the fucking planet


yohyu uptight up yer own arese intellectual arguing for the sake of it wankers !

g'night sleep tight

Subject: RE: Review: World music - a white middle class fraud
From: Peace
Date: 17 Jun 06 - 11:30 PM

Take two aspirins and call back in the morning . . . then visit the bluegrass thread where songwriters are getting it in the neck again.

Subject: RE: Review: World music - a white middle class fra
From: GUEST,Ken J
Date: 18 Jun 06 - 12:39 AM

Art Thieme above -- sure, if you have a megacity and the population to support a vast record store, the old "International" sections could be delightful. The one I remember from the 1970s was the one in Sam The Record Man in Toronto, which allegedly was Toronto's largest record store.   I only made one trip to the old Rose Records, and I have pretty fond memories of that too.

But my everyday life was in a middling-sized college town, and the "International" bin there, at best, was a collection of boring-looking albums from government-approved art troupes, and schmaltzy middle-of-the -road pop sung in non-English languages. Through a few quirks I'd gotten turned on to Soukous in the early 1980s, and until the World Music marketing concept hit, it simply was not possible to find Soukous albums in my town.

And yes, the world music bins are always quite racist, that's why the Scandinaian fiddle bands get tossed in there. :)

Subject: RE: Review: World music - a white middle class fraud
From: The Shambles
Date: 18 Jun 06 - 04:57 AM

As for saying "how about just labelling it music", that's a bit like going to the greengrocer's and asking him "Can I have a vegetable, please."

The fact that it is a greengrocers (if there still are such things) has narrowed it down a little - at least having made the decision to shop there, you are unlikely to be supplied with pork chops.

The test of the labels we place on anything - be it music or people - is not the cases where it looks to be clear, but the borderline cases. The less labels and sub-divisions we have - the less borderline cases and problems there will be.

Labelling music on national lines (in stores), may appear to make sense but closer examination will show it to be very problematic. But as music is our only international language (and perhaps our only hope) - this is counter-productive and limiting something that has no limits.

Perhaps in the case of music, there is now only the need for two labels - live music or recorded music?

Or even music that is to your taste or music that is not?

Subject: RE: Review: World music - a white middle class fraud
From: Ernest
Date: 18 Jun 06 - 06:32 AM

Shambles: I don`t see it as a big problem that people have different criteria how to label music. Usually you find out pretty quick in which bins the stuff you are looking for is.

Just labeling "music to your taste" and "music not to your taste" won`t work. How should every record store owner know what my taste of music and is what is not?

I don`t want to live in a state where this could happen.

Best
Ernest
P.S. Think I should have logged out and send this message as "Guest (Vegetable)", but I am too lazy...

Subject: RE: Review: World music - a white middle class fra
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 18 Jun 06 - 07:22 AM

Labels are good, as well as telling you where to look, they also tell you what to avoid.

eric

Subject: RE: Review: World music - a white middle class fraud
From: The Shambles
Date: 18 Jun 06 - 07:34 AM

Just labeling "music to your taste" and "music not to your taste" won`t work. How should every record store owner know what my taste of music and is what is not?

Without these labels you may be exposed to and find more music that is to your taste and the store owner may end up selling more records.

But are we coming close to accepting that the main and only reason music is labelled is in order to sell it?

Subject: RE: Review: World music - a white middle class fra
From: number 6
Date: 18 Jun 06 - 07:40 AM

"But are we coming close to accepting that the main and only reason music is labelled is in order to sell it"

.. which brings to mind a quote by P.T. Barnum .. "there's a sucker born every minute"

sIx

Subject: RE: Review: World music - a white middle class fraud
From: Ernest
Date: 18 Jun 06 - 08:40 AM

Shambles, I don`t see why labels should restrict me from exploring different kinds of music. They are just a rough categorization what kind of music is in that bin. Doesn`t say if I like the artist or not.
Nothing - if not myself - prevents me from looking into other bins. And since it is aimed at a general public (not only real music enthusiasts like us) a bit of orientation (debatable as it can be where best to put things) is not so bad.

At home we can use/develop any system we like for keeping our cds.
Best
Ernest