BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 21 May 13 - 07:10 PM

""from the survey cited above: "there is much that can and should be done to improve the civic status of Arabs in Israel and the relations between the majority and the minority.""

And they've achieved so much since 1948, i.e. bugger all.

How much longer, one wonders, before the results of their sterling efforts actually become visible?

Lip service to an unwanted ideal never works. Nor does it impress the onlooker.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 21 May 13 - 07:30 PM

"And they've achieved so much since 1948, i.e. bugger all."

So that's why 77% of Israeli Arabs say they would rather live in the State of Israel than anywhere else in the world.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 May 13 - 02:44 AM

Every critic of Israeli action denigrated or ignored

That is because they are all shite Don.
That assessment of "The Kuala Lumpur War Crimes Tribunal" was not mine.
Can you find anyone who thinks otherwise of it?
No.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 May 13 - 02:58 AM

"proof that Israel is a democracy"
And the findings from everywhere else, including groups like Jews for Justice, Unesco, UN Human Rights Watch, Amnesty.... prove that it does not.
Are you saying that the publishing of a report that outlines massive inequalities in Israeli society is proof that there is no inequality in Israeli society? - Hm... I'll have to think about that one!!
"There is no segregation on the buses."
http://www.thejc.com/blogpost/israel-needs-a-rosa-parks
http://worldnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/03/05/17194265-a-palestinian-rosa-parks-is-needed-israels-segregated-buses-spark-outrag
"They are full citizens with all the rights that go with it."
With full rights to be moved anywhere the Government chooses to move them - in this case, to a toxic rubbish dump.
http://apjp.org/bedouin-land-culture-threaten/
http://apjp.org/2600-bedouins-threatened-with/
TO REALLY DO NOT INTEND TO PRODUCE EVIDENCE TO BACK UP YOUR CLAIMS OF WHAT WHAT WAS SAID ON THE FILM
As you just said "That lie was exposed way back."
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 May 13 - 03:28 AM

'Palestinian Only' Buses in Israel: The Big Lies are Back
Of course there are no "Jews only" roads in Israel, just as there are no Jews only buses or even 'Palestinian only' buses in Israel. But if you tell a big lie often enough,....
http://www.jewishpress.com/news/palestinian-only-buses-in-israel-goebbels-big-lies-are-back/2013/03/05/0/

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 May 13 - 03:34 AM

TO REALLY DO NOT INTEND TO PRODUCE EVIDENCE TO BACK UP YOUR CLAIMS OF WHAT WHAT WAS SAID ON THE FILM
Yes I have.
Quotes from 2 reviews and offerred to produce as many more as you want.
None say that the six accuse IDF of illegal actions or hitting the wrong people.
If the six had said that, it would be the main issue.

Now, you produce your evidence Jim.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 22 May 13 - 05:26 AM

The weasel's wriggling out of the situation again Jim.

Why do you suppose he hasn't, or claims that he hasn't, watched the film?

He's deathly afraid that he might have to admit that he was wrong, and St Keith just cannot be wrong.

A waste of air and bandwidth.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 May 13 - 05:45 AM

I have not seen it Don.
Are you suggesting that is a lie?
Why are you so desperate to accuse me of things?
You people are never content to discuss the issues.

I may be wrong about the film but I do not believe I am.
If it says what Jim claims, it would be widely reported.
It is not reported at all.
Could Jim possibly be wrong?
If the film does not say that, he has made it up.

I can't wait to see it myself now.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Stringsinger
Date: 22 May 13 - 10:48 AM

In Israel, today, there are people of conscience who decry the despotism of their leaders.
"Jews only" roads are a side issue. One of the techniques used in propaganda is to sideline major issues with smaller ones to detract from the essential issue. Although Hamas and Israel employ violence toward each other, Israel is the largest offender because it is an occupier and suppressor of Palestine, possessing more weapon technology and includes expansion of their settlements in opposition to the UN and international law.

There are these adamant Christians who claim Israel must be spared through bible prophecy because they believe when their punitive Jesus comes back, Jews will have
to convert or be swept away.

Israeli propaganda is matched by similar forms coming from America. It is engendered by the power brokers in both countries and has no validity in reality.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 May 13 - 11:19 AM

In Israel, today, there are people of conscience who decry the despotism of their leaders.
And also in Palestine.

There are these adamant Christians who claim Israel must be spared through bible prophecy because they believe when their punitive Jesus comes back, Jews will have
to convert or be swept away.
Wackos.
Nothing to do with our discussion.
There are adamant Muslims who claim Israel must be destroyed and Jews killed because of interpretations of Koranic statements.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 22 May 13 - 12:10 PM

""I may be wrong about the film but I do not believe I am.
If it says what Jim claims, it would be widely reported.
It is not reported at all.
Could Jim possibly be wrong?""

Being a mere human, Jim could certainly be wrong, but HE has watched the film and drawn a conclusion based on what he saw.

YOU, on the other hand, have ignored the film and made a response based upon the lack of some airy fairy idea of what the reaction of others might be if Jim were right, concluding that, in the absence of such reaction he is not.

Why so reluctant to deal with the real facts, unless I am correct in my assessment of you as a hard wired apologist who simply cannot admit the possibility of being wrong and will refuse any evidence that you are.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 22 May 13 - 12:41 PM

"There are these adamant Christians who claim Israel must be spared through bible prophecy because they believe when their punitive Jesus comes back, Jews will have to convert or be swept away.

Now let's have a look at what the Qur'an (the holy book of Muslims) has to say about Christians and Jews:

    Slay the unbelievers wherever you find them(2:191)
    Make war on the infidels living in your neighboorhood (9:123)
    When opportunity arises, kill the infidels wherever you catch them (9:5)
    Kill the Jews and the Christians if they do not convert to Islam or refuse to pay Jizya tax (9:29)
    Any religion other than Islam is not acceptable (3:85)
    The Jews and the Christians are perverts; fight them (9:30)
    Maim and crucify the infidels if they criticise Islam. (5:33)
    The infidels are unclean; do not let them into a mosque (9:28)
    Punish the unbelievers with garments of fire, hooked iron rods, boiling water; melt their skin and bellies
    (22:19)
    Do not hanker for peace with the infidels; behead them when you catch them (47:4)
    The unbelievers are stupid; urge the Muslims to fight them (8:65)
    Muslims must not take the infidels as friends (3:28)
    Terrorise and behead those who believe in scriptures other than the Qur'an (8:12)
    Muslims must muster all weapons to terrorise the infidels (8:60)

The Qur'an certainly proclaims that when the time is appropriate, Muslims must use force to convert the unbelievers to Islam. For the non-Muslims, the alternative to this is to pay the humiliating protection money (Jizya tax) or be killed (by beheading, of course). A militarily dominant Islam, without doubt, precludes the peaceful co-existence with the unbelievers if the Muslims have to abide strictly by the unalterable stipulations of the Qur'an.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 May 13 - 12:41 PM

We are not talking about drawing conclusions Don.

Jim states that in the film the six say that Israel acted illegally and killed the wrong people.

I am sure that if that was true it would have been reported in all those reviews, so I think he made that up.

I could be wrong.
I often am.
We will see.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 22 May 13 - 01:10 PM

""Jim states that in the film the six say that Israel acted illegally and killed the wrong people.""

You would deny that nearly 7000 civilians, over 1500 of whom were children, were the wrong people??

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 22 May 13 - 01:19 PM

As an example of the lies told by our resident anti Arab brigade with respect to international support for Israel the following:-

""Allegations of international law violations

The establishment of Israeli settlements are held to constitute a transfer of Israel's civilian population into the occupied territories and as such are illegal under the Fourth Geneva Convention.[91][92][93] This is disputed by other legal experts who argue with this interpretation of the law [94]

In 2000, the editors of the Geneva Academy of International Humanitarian Law and Human Rights Palestine Yearbook of International Law (1998–1999) said "the "transfer, directly or indirectly, by the Occupying Power of parts of its own civilian population into the territory it occupies, or the deportation or transfer of all or parts of the population of the occupied territory within or outside this territory" amounts to a war crime. They hold that this is obviously applicable to Israeli settlement activities in the Occupied Arab Territories."[95]

In 2004 the International Court of Justice, in an advisory, non-binding[96] opinion, noted that the Security Council had described Israel's policy and practices of settling parts of its population and new immigrants in the occupied territories as a "flagrant violation" of the Fourth Geneva Convention. The Court also concluded that the Israeli settlements in the Occupied Palestinian Territory (including East Jerusalem) have been established in breach of international law and that all the States parties to the Geneva Convention are under an obligation to ensure compliance by Israel with international law as embodied in the Convention.[87]

In May 2012 the 27 ministers of foreign affairs of the European Union published a report strongly denouncing policies of the State of Israel in the West Bank and finding that settlements in the West Bank are illegal: "settlements remain illegal under international law, irrespective of recent decisions by the government of Israel. The EU reiterates that it will not recognize any changes to the pre-1967 borders including with regard to Jerusalem, other than those agreed by the parties."[97] The report by all EU foreign ministers also criticized the Israeli government's failure to dismantle settler outposts illegal even under domestic Israeli law." (My emphasis)

Israel denies that the Israeli settlements are in breach of any international laws.[98] The Israeli Supreme Court has yet to rule decisively on settlement legality under the Geneva Convention.""

You did state earlier in this or in the other thread that Europe supports Israel, did you not?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 May 13 - 03:31 PM

Yes they all do.
Some are critical of the W.Bank settlements.
Fair enough. The settlements are real. They exist.

They do not criticise Israel for committing terrible war crimes and massacring civilians, because that never happened.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 May 13 - 03:03 AM

Hamas is categorised as terrorist by EU.
Britain France, Germany and most of rest of EU want Hezbollah categorised terrorist.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/05/23/us-france-hezbollah-idUSBRE94M07R20130523

Israel is not, so they must all agree with me about Jim's film.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 May 13 - 03:40 AM

"..... and killed the wrong people."
Where on earth did I day that - I said no such thing and neither did the film.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 May 13 - 05:20 AM

If you'd read all the reviews you claim to have read you'd know that the film isn't about "legality" or "wrong people" - it is six men speaking about what they did, why they did it, and the effect it has had on Israel, The Middle East and the world. If "wrong" comes into it, it is in moral terms, not legal ones (soerly missing from your own input).
There is no commentary to draw legal conclusions - the men speak for themselves.
The main conclusion from the film is that past actions have brutalised the Israeli people and made the Israeli regime comparable to the Nazis - that is what should concern those defending Israel, not whether these actions are "legal".
There was nothing new about dropping bombs on occupied homes to kill suspected terrorists - that has been regular Israeli practice for a long time and was highlighted during the last Gaza incursion - it is a war crime in all but name and the reason it is not officially identified as such is because of the US vetoes which have prevented the world organisations taking action (just as Russia's and China's vetoes have protected Assad's Syria from intervention.
The same vetoes and support by the extremely powerful 'Israeli lobby' is also the reason why Israel is not recognised as a terrorist state - not because the UN or Europe supports anything Israel does. Israel's behaviour has drawn condemnation from all over the world, by governments, international organisations and human rights bodies - you and your thicko/sicko buddies have continually referred to these condemnations as lies, Muslim plots, and anti-Semitism.   
You and they are a vicious idiots who twist what everything virtually everybody is saying to promote your mindless viciousness.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 May 13 - 05:44 AM

Israel's behaviour has drawn condemnation from all over the world, by governments

Only Islamic ones and dictatorships.


"Do any of the 6 accuse Israel of terrorism?"
Yes they ******* do -

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 23 May 13 - 06:18 AM

"the extremely powerful 'Israeli lobby'"

Yes, it's true, the Jews control the world and this is how they do it.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 23 May 13 - 08:29 AM

Bobad, its obvious that you know bugger-all about the political situation in the US vis-a-vis Israel, or simply choose to ignore reality.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Stringsinger
Date: 23 May 13 - 11:05 AM

Remember, Jews are not all Zionists. They haven't all bought into Israeli propaganda.
Some Jews are highly critical of Israel and have a more intimate knowledge of Zionism and what it has become.

The role of the religious Christian "wackos" is extremely relevant to this conversation because the real haters of Israel are supporters of Netanyahu et. al. and their policies. The "wackos" and the military industrial complex are on track to destroying Israel by supporting aggressive Israeli militarism which the world condemns. The "wackos" have it in their game plan to destroy Jews if they don't convert, once their Jesus returns. Meanwhile, the arms merchants get rich.

Islamic fundamentalists are unfortunately on the rise worldwide due to the repressive policies of the U.S. and Israel. The military policies strengthen the reactionary forces of Islam and make it acceptable to people in Afghanstan, Pakistan, Iran, and even Turkey as well as Egypt, which you will remember, burned the Israeli embassy to the ground.

The only way to stop violence is to stop violence. The schoolyard "he did it first" mantra is useless in gaining anyone's respect.

The world is waking up to the fact that Israel could trigger a third world war. Each atrocity committed by Israel is met with increasing Islamic fanaticism.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 May 13 - 02:36 PM

Some Jews are highly critical of Israel
True of any country with freedom of speech, like Israel but excluding most of its neighbours.

The "wackos" have it in their game plan to destroy Jews if they don't convert, once their Jesus returns.
Wackos have wacko plans, but they don't matter because they are wackos.
What is your interest?
Why should we care?


They have hated Israel from day one, so you can not ascribe that to anything Israel has done.

The only way to stop violence is to stop violence. The schoolyard "he did it first" mantra is useless in gaining anyone's respect.
At last something we can agree on.
Israel has stopped attacking Gaza, Sinai and Lebanon.
When will they stop attacking Israel?
Israel has received missiles from all those places in recent weeks.

Each atrocity committed by Israel is met with increasing Islamic fanaticism.
Israel has committed no atrocity, or it would be denounced by countries like Ireland, etc.
In the real world, everyone knows these accusations are shite.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 23 May 13 - 05:43 PM

"The role of the religious Christian "wackos" is extremely relevant to this conversation ..."

I think that the role of Islamist "wackos", of which there is a preponderance in Israel's neighbourhood, are more relevant to this conversation.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 24 May 13 - 06:09 AM

""Israel has stopped attacking Gaza, Sinai and Lebanon.
When will they stop attacking Israel?""

Maybe when Israel stops pushing the Palestinians into a tiny corner of the West Bank and replacing them with Israeli settlers.

Gaza isn't the only issue, however much you would like to deflect attention from the West Bank.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 26 May 13 - 08:06 AM

"the extremely powerful 'Israeli lobby'"

Some of your fellow travelers on "the extremely powerful 'Israeli lobby': VIDEO: Jew Bashing in USA

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 26 May 13 - 07:47 PM

This might warm some of the cold hearts around here:

Dying 4-year-old girl finds life-savers in land of the enemy
By Paul Goldman, Producer, NBC News

The young girl was dying when she arrived in the land of her country's enemy.

A heart condition had left the 4-year-old Syrian struggling to walk or even talk.

But in Israel – a country still in a state of cease-fire with Syria after the Yom Kippur War four decades ago -- she found her saviors.

Admitted earlier this month to the Wolfson Medical Center, south of Tel Aviv, she underwent life-saving surgery.

The girl is now recuperating on a ward along with children from the West Bank and Gaza Strip, Sudan, Romania, China and Israel.

"She would have definitely died if she wouldn't have arrived here," Ilan Cohen, one of the doctors who treated her, said.

Read more

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 26 May 13 - 08:11 PM

This is the saddest part of the article linked to above:

"....the mother's and daughter's journey to safety was a long and dangerous one.

They made their way to Israel through a third country, the name of which has not been made known for security reasons.

The child and her mother are also not being named because of a potentially hostile reaction should they eventually return home.

"It's just too dangerous," said Fatma Sarsour, Arabic translator for Save a Child's Heart.

"At some point, both daughter and mother will go back to Syria and they want to keep this trip a secret," she said.

Her middle-aged mother appeared uncomfortable with media attention because of the perils of being identified and declined to comment."

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 27 May 13 - 01:29 PM

SOUTHERN SHUNEH, Jordan (AP) — Israel's president urged Israeli and Palestinian leaders on Sunday to overcome differences and resume peace negotiations, saying the sides could not afford "to lose this opportunity."

President Shimon Peres issued his call ahead of a gathering of Mideast leaders on the sidelines of a World Economic Forum meeting on the shores of the Dead Sea in Jordan. Sunday's meeting was expected to include a rare face-to-face meeting between Israeli and Palestinian leaders, along with the participation of U.S. Secretary of State John Kerry, who has devoted much of the past two months to restarting long-stalled peace talks.

"We shouldn't lose the opportunity because it will be replaced by a great disappointment," Peres told reporters in Jordan. "For my experience, I believe it's possible to overcome it. It doesn't require too much time."

Yahoo! News

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 27 May 13 - 04:51 PM

""This might warm some of the cold hearts around here:

Dying 4-year-old girl finds life-savers in land of the enemy
By Paul Goldman, Producer, NBC News""

I don't recall anybody on this thread, or the others, having attacked Israeli doctors.

I DO recall somebody making remarks about Greg "changing the subject, when losing an argument".

Oh yeah! That was YOU Bobad, wasn't it?

As to your previous post about Jew bashing in the USA, we can discuss that, if you really care, in a thread about that topic, since those victims were Americans in the USA.

It is however another sidestep from this thread which is about the government and armed forces of the State of Israel.

What's up, changing the subject because you are losing the argument?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 02 Jun 13 - 03:14 PM

3-year-old Israeli's kidney saves Palestinian boy

When three-year-old Noam Naor fell out the window and was pronounced clinically dead 10 days ago, his parents decided to donate his organs. One kidney was given to another Israeli child. The other saved the life of a 10-year-old Palestinian.

The operation, carried out Sunday at the Schneider children's ward at Petah Tikva's Beilinson Hospital, was deemed successful.

Health Minister Yael German on Sunday praised the Naor family for the life-saving act, which she called "an example" for everyone.

"In my eyes, Noam's parents are noble and an inspiration to us all," German said. At the hardest moment of their life, they made a difficult decision that their son's death would bequeath life to a Palestinian child.

"Their donation is a source of pride and an example of humanity and kindness," the minister said.

The Palestinian boy had been treated with dialysis at Jerusalem's Shaare Zedek Medical Center for seven years before the match was found. The Health Ministry's transplant center contacted Noam's parents, and asked them if they'd be willing to donate the kidney to someone who wasn't Israeli — specifically, a Palestinian.

"It doesn't matter who gets the kidneys, so long as fewer children need to undergo dialysis treatments," News1 quoted Noam's father as saying.

The father of the boy who received the donation told the site he had "no words" that could express his feelings, but wanted to thank the donor's family who gave his son "a new life after years of waiting."

The Times of Israel

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 02 Jun 13 - 03:32 PM

""Health Minister Yael German on Sunday praised the Naor family for the life-saving act, which she called "an example" for everyone.

"In my eyes, Noam's parents are noble and an inspiration to us all," German said. At the hardest moment of their life, they made a difficult decision that their son's death would bequeath life to a Palestinian child.

"Their donation is a source of pride and an example of humanity and kindness," the minister said.""

My heart goes out to the parents of that dead child, and I can only marvel at what it cost to decide on organ donation. Likewise I am not surprised that ordinary Israeli citizens should feel kinship with Palestinian parents suffering as they were.

What is not clear is what relevance this has to the treatment of Palestinians by Israel's Government and armed forces, which is more likely to cause the need for transplants than the supply of same.

False equivalence is not a valid argument.

Now, if you had said that there were three possible matches for the organs, two Israelis and one Palestinian, and the Palestinian (being a slightly better match) got the transplant, I would have been very impressed indeed.

I think you should be ashamed of yourself for trying to use the selfless action of grieving parents to justify Israel's abysmal treatment of Palestinians.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 02 Jun 13 - 03:38 PM

""Health Minister Yael German on Sunday praised the Naor family for the life-saving act, which she called "an example" for everyone.""

Perhaps she will pass that thought on to the rest of her ministerial colleagues, and perhaps they will see it in the same light in regard to their actions in Gaza and the West Bank.

I don't think I will hold my breath while waiting though!

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 02 Jun 13 - 04:29 PM

"I think you should be ashamed of yourself for trying to use the selfless action of grieving parents to justify Israel's abysmal treatment of Palestinians."

Fuck, you never stop with your hateful spite do you.

The thread is entitled small hope - the key word being "hope". Every act of kindness like this from either side is is a sign of hope. In the end peace will come from the citizens on each side deciding that there is more that binds them that keeps them apart. Acts like this is what brings people to better understand each other.

Only a hateful bastard like you can try and use this story to once again demonstrate your hate of Israel and the Jewish people.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 03 Jun 13 - 08:57 AM

Easy, bobad, easy - you're spewing spittle as you type.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Jun 13 - 09:03 AM

There might be more kindness in return were it not for fear of reprisal.
It is not healthy to be seen helping a Jew in many places.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 04 Jun 13 - 06:47 AM

""Only a hateful bastard like you can try and use this story to once again demonstrate your hate of Israel and the Jewish people.""

And only a bigoted fool Israeli government apologist would be stupid enough to call me a Jew hater, based on a post in which I specifically separated ordinary Jews from the Zionist government which is ruining what could be a thriving nation.

And only a bigoted Israeli government apologist would consider using the grief of bereaved parents to score political points in a thread about the relationship between that government ant the palestinians it is oppressing.

The cynical lack of sensitivity in that is appalling.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 04 Jun 13 - 06:58 AM

This is a thread about hope - go spread your hate elsewhere.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 04 Jun 13 - 06:43 PM

""This is a thread about hope - go spread your hate elsewhere.""

If this is a thread about hope, what the hell are YOU doing here.

You just advocate more of the samewith your one sided views.

Real hope will come from those ordinary Israelis who are speaking out against the extremism of their government.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 04 Jun 13 - 06:55 PM

Like I said.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 30 Jul 13 - 08:36 AM

A new round of peace talks between Israel and the Palestinians have begun and are scheduled to continue for nine months. This article in the New Republic looks at the five core issues of the conflict: the borders separating Israel and a Palestinian state; the fate of Jewish settlements in the West Bank; security arrangements between the two states; the question of Palestinian refugees displaced in Israel's 1948 War of Independence (and their millions of descendants); and the status of Jerusalem.

Here's What John Kerry's Peace Settlement Will Look Like (Probably)

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 30 Jul 13 - 09:32 AM

It is great to see some hope of agreement, and moreover hope that might be practical of achievement.

It would seem that at last common sense has erupted on two sides of the divide.

BUT, and it's a big one,.....that elephant in the corner of the room is yet to be considered.

HAMAS is still the de facto government of Gaza, and at some point their agreement will have to be sought.

They will be a much harder nut to crack, and Abbas cannot realistically promise an end to the violence until they are on board.

Achieving a three cornered agreement is likely to mean greater concessions from Israel than they would be prepared to make.

The most positive part of this development is that it seems to be Israel making the first goodwill move by releasing those Palestinian prisoners without requiring a quid pro quo.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 01 Aug 13 - 09:29 AM

Hamas is becoming increasingly marginalized. They have lost much of their funding and military arrangements with their allies due to their alliance with the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt and their support of the uprising in Syria. They will, of course, object to any attempts at a peace agreement with Israel but whether they resort to their usual tactic of trying to scuttle the talks by launching attacks into Israel remains to be seen. Their financial difficulties, internal squabbling and growing isolation leaves them vulnerable to local resentment which has been building for a long time.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Bobert
Date: 01 Aug 13 - 10:01 AM

The other elephant in the room is the question of settlements...

But...

...if anyone can get this done, it's Kerry...

I'd give it a 30% chance of success but that beats 0%...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Aug 13 - 08:29 AM

"Small hope for Israel/Palestine"
And getting smaller by the minute - or should that be 'settlement'?
Jim Carroll

ISRAEL MOVES TO BOOST SETTLEMENTS BEFORE PEACE TALKS
MARK WEISS in Jerusalem

Despite the resumption of peace talks with the Palestini¬ans, Israel has added a num¬ber of outlying West Bank set¬tlements to a list of communi¬ties entitled to special govern¬ment funding.
Ninety settlements were included on the new national priority areas map approved by the government yesterday, entitling the communities to government grants, infrastructure investment, tax breaks and other benefits.
Four dovish ministers ab¬stained in the vote, including environment minister Amir Peretz, who criticised the deci¬sion because it "contradicts this period of efforts to ad¬vance peace".
Among the new settlements eligible for special financial assistance are the! isolated communities of Rehalim, Bruchin and Sansana, considered illegal outposts until the government changed their status to fully fledged settlements.
Illegal settlements
The international community considers all of the 121 West Bank Jewish settlements, home to 350,000 Israelis, ille¬gal under international law.
The future of the settlements will be a core issue- when Israeli and Palestinian negotiators resume peace talks in Israel next week. Israel wants to keep the majority of settlers by annexing the main settlement blocs to Israel and handing over parts of Israeli territory to the Palestinians in a land-swap deal.
The new map includes 600 towns and regions as priority areas. The original aim of the national priority list was to di¬vert funds to poorer communi¬ties, particularly development towns on Israel's periphery. However, the settler lobby has added West Bank Jewish com¬munities to the list, citing "na¬tional security" criteria.
Justice minister Tzipi Livni, who heads Israel's team at the peace talks, abstained in the cabinet vote, saying the nation¬al priority map was intended to advance the national inter¬est, not political interests. "It's inappropriate to take funds in¬tended to tackle socioeconom¬ic gaps and use them to sup¬port outlying settlements in dangerous areas," she said.
Zehava Galon, leader of left-wing opposition party Meretz, called on the Knesset's legal adviser to investigate the government decision.
"The decision to include set¬tlements, whose legal status are clouded by doubt, to the map of national priorities, is a targeted effort to prevent the peace efforts and will encourage the settlers to continue to violate the law..."
Meanwhile, negotiators from both sides confirmed that Israel will release 26 veter¬an Palestinian prisoners next week. The release is the first batch of four, staggered at the request of Israel.
It is believed that the free¬ing of long-term detainees, nearly all arrested before the signing of the Oslo peace ac¬cords 20 years ago, will boost the standing of President Mahmoud Abbas on the Pales¬tinian street.
The Palestinians insist all prisoners should be freed if a comprehensive deal is reached.

Irish Times 5.8.13

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 06 Aug 13 - 09:43 AM

More settlements? Can't be. Bobad will explain to you thet Israel never does anything wrong or to provoke them hellish Palestinians.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Aug 13 - 10:19 AM

The bottom line is that Israel will not make any concessions. We've been here on the end of the hoodwink so many times. They'll talk all right, in full knowledge that pointless talking, for as long as possible, allows life to go nicely on in Israel with less danger of rocket attacks. Even Israel knows that jaw-jaw is better than war-war, even when the jaw-jaw is fraudulent. Israel does not have to make any concessions, or stop building settlements, because whatever they do the US will do nothing except express mild concern. So why should they enter genuine talks? No need. Not until the day the US tells Israel that aggression against neighbours and settlement expansion will result in a withdrawal of military aid.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 06 Aug 13 - 10:36 AM

The fact remains that the Palestinians living in the West Bank are faring much better under Israel's "occupation" than did the Jews living in the West Bank under the illegal occupation by Jordan.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Aug 13 - 11:03 AM

S' what - if it were only true - and there is no evidence that this is the case.?
Human rights abuses don't become any less because other people do them.
A war criminal is a war criminal is a war criminal - and so ad infinitum
Jim Carroll