BS: Our Apology

Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Teribus
Date: 15 Nov 16 - 03:52 AM

Not so JOM - as far as I am concerned Hillary Clinton got 61,047,207 votes and Trump got 60,375,962 votes which to my mind in a two horse race means that Hillary Clinton won the 2016 US Presidential Election.

Using exactly the same reasoning 17,410,742 voters in the UK voted for the UK to leave the EU and 16,141,241 voters in the UK voted to remain in the EU, which to my mind in a two horse race means that it is the wish of the voters in the UK that the UK leaves the EU.

Give people a choice and a means to express it then abide by the result.

Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Teribus
Date: 15 Nov 16 - 04:09 AM

"Large numbers of votes in strong Clinton territory have yet to be included in the tally. Washington, Oregon, California."

Votes still to be included? Really Shaw?

Washington State - Hillary Clinton 1,221,435; Donald Trump 835,385
Oregon State - Hillary Clinton 934,631; Donald Trump 742,506
California - Hillary Clinton 6,191,799; Donald Trump 3,287,273

Those were the number of votes cast for those two candidates in those three states Shaw so what other votes have to be counted?

The US Electoral College follows the declared wishes of the majority vote in each state. As Clinton had already won those states any mythical additional votes that you refer to would make no difference whatsoever.

Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Nov 16 - 04:13 AM

"Give people a choice and a means to express it then abide by the result."
The people elected a fascist, misogynist, antisemitic hate-monger who advocates womens' genitals into office - and we should be happy with that?
Your contempt for "the people" has been palpable in the past - lazy, scrounging, no-marks who brought Britain to its knees and should have no say in their lives - now we have two elections that have been won based on xenophobia and race hatred and all of a sudden their word counts for something.
As I said - Germany elected the Nazis into office - mind you, Britain respected that decision until it was too late to do anything about it - and then, yet another bloodbath - this time accompanied by the smell of Zyklon-B.
I remind you again - you were one of those desperately trying to pin antisemitism and misogyny on the Labour Party - now you are rooting for an antisemitic misogynist who tells men it's o.k. to sexually assault women,
Your particular Poad to damascus has been a very short one.
America has elected a Fascist into office, Britain will follow him like the poodle she has always been and Fascist parties throughout the world are taking comfort from this result.
"JOM"
Always a sign that the confidence is on the wane!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Nov 16 - 04:16 AM

Whoops - inadvertently deleted a bit - should read:
"who advocates it's ok for men to grab womens' genitals, into office"
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Nov 16 - 04:50 AM

When you said advocates women's genitals into office, Jim, I thought you were being euphemistic about members of Trump's team!

Wonder whether Teribus and co will be calling for an antisemitism enquiry into Trump and his team. After all Keith and Teribus have said about the Labour Party, it would be highly hypocritical not to, wouldn't it?

Once again, the notion that our referendum is precisely equivalent to a presidential election needs to be challenged. In fact, as horse races, both contest were unfair, but for different reasons. In the US it doesn't matter who passes the post first. It's all about how many fences your hooves caught on the way. In the U.K., the two-horse race was set up so that one horse was allowed to run on the flat whereas the other one was forced to jump fences.

Still, in one post Teribus admits that Hillary won the election. I suppose he has to do that in order to defend the referendum result, for which he likes to shout out the absolute numbers. By the same reckoning, Hillary is well home and dry. How can he possibly say otherwise! But in the next post he seems to be clinging to the outrageously-unfair electoral college system as justification for Trump's "victory.". Difficult conundrum, innit!

Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Nov 16 - 05:28 AM

I don't exactly think that Greg is a "Christophobe," Pete, any more then I am (nice word, by the way!) Can't speak for Greg, but a lot of the things that Jesus allegedly said (or was it a committee...) make a fair amount of sense, though in some other regards he got things arse about face, like telling people that they shouldn't worry about tomorrow, or that they should give all their stuff away, or that they should not only not fight back when they're being beaten to pulp but that they should invite their aggressor to beat them up even more. And we like the story about his miraculously changing water to wine, when we know full well that he actually sneaked out the back door to the offie just like everybody else would have done. An antisemite hates Jews because they are Jews. An Islamophobe hates Muslims because they are Muslims. Christians come in all colours, styles, shapes and sizes so we can't really hate them all as a piece. We can hate what's been done in the name of Christianity, of course. Can't help feeling that Jesus would have been right with us there. You need to invent a different -ophobe name, Pete!

Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Nov 16 - 06:03 AM

"I thought you were being euphemistic about members of Trump's team!"
What - me - sexist.
Wouldn't be so insulting to my favourite gender.
" don't exactly think that Greg is a "Christophobe,"
These people fave a problem distinguishing between the loving religion that they claim to adhere to but seldom do, and the organisation that has condoned and even facilitated the mess-rape of children in its care
If we had a few more real 'Christians' around the world would be a beter place - mind you, Your Man would almost certainly find himself accused of promoting terrorism and end up on an indefinite holiday in the sun in Guantanamo.
I spent a large part of my life recording real Christians - they left more of an influence on what I am than any church I've been inside of
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: DMcG
Date: 15 Nov 16 - 07:19 AM

I am not sure I have come across Christophobes here myself. Plenty who criticise all religion, of course, and some of those criticise Christianity more than the other religions because they know more about it, or it is more prevalent in their world, or it is pushing some policial or social agenda under the name of Christianity, but no one seems to me to be specialising, as it were. Now in the wider world, yes, people are being killed because they are of one religion sect by members of another, but it has never been exclusively in one direction.


And as a practising Christian there is plenty of stuff being pushed by Christian groups that I find the antithesis of my understanding of the Christian message. So I find myself agreeing with Steve or Greg perhaps more often than they might think.

Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Nov 16 - 07:39 AM

Oh, I think I already knew that. Could be that either you or I (I'm not sayin') is akin to the great Brian Clough. He said that, when dealing with a player who disagrees, "We talk about it for twenty minutes and then we decide I was right."

Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: DMcG
Date: 15 Nov 16 - 08:04 AM

You knew I agree with you more than you thought? I need a stiff drink to sort that one out.

Going back to the thread topic: the electoral college system seems outdated to me as the problems it was designed to solve have changed into others. Nevertheless for them to vote in favour of Hillary even if constitionally possible would be a significant step towards a civil war (or extreme civil unrest) So we can be fairly confident it won't happen.

Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Nov 16 - 08:45 AM

The American right generally seems to be keen in the idea that, in regard to to constitutional matters, the intentions of the "founding fathers" ought to determine things.

If the electoral college stopped Trump becoming president, it would be doing what the "founding fathers" intended it to do, overule a choice by the electorate which the electoral college decided was stupid.

Ergo...

Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Stanron
Date: 15 Nov 16 - 09:37 AM

Because I'm from the UK I don't know much about the Electoral College. Is it open to pecuniary persuasion?

Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Nov 16 - 10:54 AM

A bit cheeky changing the wording of what you said, DMcG! 😂

Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: DMcG
Date: 15 Nov 16 - 12:32 PM

Not intentionally :)

Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Greg F.
Date: 15 Nov 16 - 03:30 PM

The "morality card"????

We're[sic] it their candidate they would be boldly condemning moralists !

pete, its difficult for me to believe that you are as much of an idiot as you obviously are if you can make that statement, claim to be a Christian, and can then defend a lying, racist, white-supremecist, Islamaphobic, misogynist, sexual predator, corrupt, tax-evading, swindler, multiple divorceé and all around despicable excuse for a human being.

"Christophobe"? I don't hate Christ in the least (seems all in all a good fellow all 'round, unlike Trump), any more than I hate Bugs Bunny, The Tooth Fairy or the Flying Spaghetti Monster.

One thing I DO hate, tho, is a sanctimonious hypocrite.

Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: akenaton
Date: 16 Nov 16 - 09:21 AM

At last some
Common Sense

Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Nov 16 - 09:35 AM

I find it difficult to know what to say about anyone who treats anything from the press as being factual. Even less when something from the Telegraph is branded as "Common Sense". Especialy when it contains the line heaped on The Donald's immaculately coiffured head

Not that I have anything against anyone's hairstyle and would not stoop so low as to mention anything about the way anyone looks but such comments just make a meaningless story even more ridiculous.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Nov 16 - 10:12 AM

"Common Sense"
Seems like another term for appeasement to me
Can we assume that, considering the total lack of response to the descriptions of the foul programme Trump won the day on, that is what his supporters here consider to be a fit programme for the most powerful state in the world - is that really what you describe as "common sense" Ake?
Have we misjudged the man?
It really would be useful to know the type of person we are arguing with
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Nov 16 - 10:55 AM

I'd take that as heavy irony, Dave. .(Maybe all this stuff about American politics is affecting you in unexpected ways..)

Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: akenaton
Date: 16 Nov 16 - 11:14 AM

The point children IS reality.

Mr Trump WILL be the US president. We WILL leave the EU.

Is it possible for "liberals" to be pragmatic?

We must find ways of working with the new US administration even if by our stupidity and lack of foresight, we have made that so difficult and embarrassing.

We must ensure
good trade deals with other European countries by keeping our negotiating position secret for the moment, until article 50 is instigated.

We must stop whining because "liberal" ideology is being rejected all over the developed world and work for a society where CLASS inequality is addressed, rather than the smokescreen of sexual orientation.

Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Donuel
Date: 16 Nov 16 - 11:19 AM

"you children" "We must We must"

you used to be moderately but tolerably ignorant.

Now you are just thoroughly arrogant.

Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Nov 16 - 12:06 PM

Those are indeed highly probable predictions. But the conclusions you drw from them are open to question.

We have indeed to work with the new US, in the same sense that we have to work with Putin's Russia, with Iran, and with Zimbabwe. The relationship should be one if cautious courtesy, rather than frieendship. That should be reserved for the peoples of those countries.

As for negotiating our way out of the EU, there can be no logic to the suggestiin that there is any point in keeping our initial negotiating position secret, since as soon as negotiations commence it will be revealed. Our final negotiating position, if that is different, is another matter, since once this is revealed it becomes the starting position.

There might be something to be said in favour of a take-it-or leave it approach to negotiations instead.

And there is a great deal to be said for giving people a chance to say whether they agree with this, if it is in any way different from the total break which appears to be that which seems to be implied by "Brexit is Brexit".

Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: DMcG
Date: 16 Nov 16 - 12:08 PM

We must ensure good trade deals with other European countries

And that is the heart of the problem. Who gets to define what 'good' looks like?   Just about all of the proponents of Leave had a different set of priorities and trade-offs, and as far as we can tell, those responsible for sorting it still do.

The judges have ruled that Parliament has a say in the definition of 'good', not just the government. That is pretty much all they said.

Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Stu
Date: 16 Nov 16 - 12:09 PM

" rather than the smokescreen of sexual orientation."

Oh fuck off.

Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Nov 16 - 12:23 PM

"The point children IS reality."
It is a reality we' don't have to accept - let alone welcome, as you have.
If Governments had opposed Hitler, there would have been a lot less dead Jews.
If the world had opposed Assad he wouldn't have been able to massacre his people and we would not be fighting Isis.
Your "pragmatism" is support by appeasement.
Trump is a fascist thug and your friend Farage helped him risde to power - making him a supporter of fascist thuggery
Your bullshit is an indication that you support Trump's policies
Tell us Ake - WHAT IS YOUR HONEST OPINION OF HIS MISOGYNY, HIS RACISM, AND HIS CHOICE OF AN ANTISEMITE AS A POLITICAL PARTNER - FOR OR AGAINST WILL DO?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Nov 16 - 12:23 PM

I am not entirely sure what Brexit or sexual orientation have to do with the American presidential election. Nor do I really know what "liberals" are unless it is the neolibralism that I referred to elsewhere. I do not see how the election of Trump, based on the policies he has declared, help to achieve class equality either. Hopefully, like most other politicians, he was misleading the electorate. When he said that many low-paid manual labourers would be deported, 1.6 billion people would be banned from entering the USA on the basis of their religion and women would be reduced to the sexual playthings of rich businessmen it does nothing whatsoever for any equality.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Teribus
Date: 16 Nov 16 - 12:43 PM

Donuel - 6 Nov 16 - 11:19 AM

Irrespective of how you view Akenaton Donuel at least he is not like you - i.e., someone who knowingly and deliberately spreads malicious lies about people.

Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Donuel
Date: 16 Nov 16 - 12:46 PM

It is my sad duty to report that Donald J Trump has become lost in mind and temperament. He was the finest example of a lack of character, wisdom and courage while laden with white entitlement, defensiveness and anti- Semitism. He will be missed by everyone that he owed money.

Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Nov 16 - 01:03 PM

someone who knowingly and deliberately spreads malicious lies about people.
You've just ben caught out lying through yopur teeth - about me and about WW1 soldiers.
You can't respond without insulting people, can you?
Jim Carrill

Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Nov 16 - 01:14 PM

Is it possible to have a thread without rancour? Will we ever have a discussion that does not end in being corrupted by ignorance and bloody mindedness? Can peoples passions not be directed against the real issues instead of each other? What is the point of rhetorical questions...

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Nov 16 - 01:41 PM

I doubt it is irony, Kevin. This is the Telegraph we are talking about!

:D tG

Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Donuel
Date: 16 Nov 16 - 02:11 PM

Whatever you need Teribus. I consider all your posts fake news.

Here is a gift, John McCain is perfect.

Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Andrez
Date: 16 Nov 16 - 03:05 PM

How tedious, another thread thats lost its way in acrimony and bitternes. So many words, so little content!

Cheers,

Andrez

Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Donuel
Date: 16 Nov 16 - 03:12 PM

so many uk comments about Our apology.

aphorism: When debt becomes an embarrassment of riches you can take to the bank, you are becoming just like Trump.

Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Nov 16 - 03:16 PM

Hey Don - Opening line of the thread

To all of our friends living outside of America;

As it addressed to those outside America and as we are America's closest European ally would you not expect most of the comments to come from the UK?

Don't understand the aphorism I'm afraid :-( But it sounds like it should be good :-)

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: akenaton
Date: 16 Nov 16 - 04:15 PM

Stu, Thank you for that response.

Do you really think that the issue of CLASS inequality is not hugely more important than the issue of homosexual "marriage"?

I heard an interview given by President elect Trump just before or just after his unexpected victory......about the second or third question was regarding his views on "Gay marriage", an issue which affects a very tiny minority of the population....0.004%?.

Class inequality and the wealth gap affects an enormous number of citizens of the UK and the US.....yet it is seldom mentioned.

Real liberals would be promoting real equality within education, housing, wealth.

Someone asked me how I define "liberals" .......fucking hypocrites!...will that do?

Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Nov 16 - 05:11 PM

I never tire of repeating this gem from the Reverend Dodgson

"When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean—neither more nor less." "The question is," said Alice, "whether you can make words mean so many different things." "The question is," said Humpty Dumpty, "which is to be master—that's all."

I do wish at times though that people would either stick to what words really mean or, if it does not fit, invent one of their own.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Greg F.
Date: 16 Nov 16 - 05:58 PM

Class inequality and the wealth gap affects an enormous number of citizens of the UK and the US

And Trump and his cronies - who have exploited the working clas for generations - are the reason why. Get real, Ake.

Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Nov 16 - 07:22 PM

"Do you really think that the issue of CLASS inequality is not hugely more important than the issue of homosexual "marriage"?"
Homosexual marriage is a done deal and has nothing whatever to do with class inequality
You have persistently attempted to turn the clock back on that done deal - you are attempting to return to sexual inequality.
You don't belieeve in class equality anyway - you have said that working people are not ready for it.
One more time Tell us Ake - WHAT IS YOUR HONEST OPINION OF TRUMP'S MISOGYNY, HIS RACISM, AND HIS CHOICE OF AN ANTISEMITE AS A POLITICAL PARTNER - FOR OR AGAINST WILL DO?
You have nort answered the question - will you do so now?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Nov 16 - 08:01 PM

"Class inequality and the wealth gap affects an enormous number of citizens of the UK and the US.....yet it is seldom mentioned."
The press has been full of the rising gap between the wealth and the poor for at least two years
2013

Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Donuel
Date: 16 Nov 16 - 08:10 PM

Dave the gnome, regarding the aphorism, that's exactly the way I felt about it when I wrote it. Perhaps it can be fixed.

What does have substance is the repeated firing of Trump people chosen to handle the transition. After the fist meeting regarding HSS the Trump guy was fired and the soonest we will hear from them is well after Thanksgiving.

To be fair the soonest a cabinet can be assembled is 7-8 weeks.

Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: frogprince
Date: 16 Nov 16 - 08:10 PM

Ake often notes that he believes in social conservatism; what's more socially conservative than class inequality; there were "good old days" when it was pretty much enforced by law.

Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Nov 16 - 10:32 PM

Being rightwing doesn't in any way reduce the instinct to irony that is so characteristic of this country, Dave. And contempt towards Trump appears to be every bit as strong right across the political spectrum. Even Nigel Farage while fawning on the man seems to has considerable difficulty in concealing it.

The difference is that while the left sees him as a dangerous quasi-fascist, the right sees him more as a vulgar oaf. Both views are of course true.
...........................
It has become clear in recent years that it is quite possible to hold strongly to what can be called socially liberal views on a whole range of issues, such as gay marriage, and yet be savagely repressive on economic issues, as demonstrated by slashing benefits and attacking workers rights.   

The conservatives retain power because they have managed to set this aside in order to retain an organic link with those who disagree strongly with the socially liberal stuff, but who share the economic priorities.

This would seem to indicate that the opposite combination is also perfectly possible. There's another thread ("we all agree on all but three things") which is perhaps relevant, though more in an American context.

Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Teribus
Date: 17 Nov 16 - 01:58 AM

Donuel - 16 Nov 16 - 02:11 PM

"Whatever you need Teribus. I consider all your posts fake news.

Here is a gift, John McCain is perfect."

You are perfectly at liberty to take whatever I post as you like, but I note that you have never challenged or countered the detail in any of them.

As to John McCain being perfect, I would probably doubt that, BUT he most certainly WAS NOT responsible for the deaths of 134 US sailors on the USS Forrestal as you have clearly stated

I judge your posts on that basis, you are a malicious liar who seems to persist in your lies even when confronted with evidence that proves your posts to be the lies they are. The only thing I want from you is an admission that you were in error in stating what you did about former Lt-Cdr John McCain USN and that he had nothing whatsoever to do with the fire onboard the Forrestal.

Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Nov 16 - 03:16 AM

Good points, Kevin. I know I have posted it before but, in case you did not catch it here is George Monbiot's article on neolibralism which may help make sense of your points on social and political libralism. I would recommend it elsewhere but that has already fell on deaf ears :-(

On the other point I must also say that equality of class, gender, race, religion and sexuality are not mutually exclusive as some seem to think. In fact, as most people know, it is easier to go for the 'quick win' first. If you can make 0.01% of the population feel equal to the other other 99.99% easily, then go for it. It is good practice and will help make the more major changes at a later stage.

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Nov 16 - 03:37 AM

Far more important than an event in a genocidal war half a century ago is, what happens now.
It will be interesting to see if Trumps Stormtroopers are proposing to target the 50,000 Irish illegally living in the U.S. in the same manner they say they are going to treat their neighboring Mexicans, and if not, how is this not going to be seen as the blatantly racist act that it is?
It will also be fascinating to see whether this shot in the arm manages to drag Farage the fascist out of the pub and onto the hustings.
Fascinating days ahead, as they all start to crawl out of the woodwork.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: akenaton
Date: 17 Nov 16 - 03:47 AM

Any true socialist would know that class inequality and financial aspiration are endemic to our present economic system, social mores are not.

Social "liberalism" in the form of attacks on family values, the Church, traditional forms of parenting, open "marriages" etc, are a smokescreen which obscures any attempt to obtain genuine equality.

Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Teribus
Date: 17 Nov 16 - 03:54 AM

If people are illegally living in any country then they must accept that fact and the very real risk of deportation with the additional penalty IIRC as far as the US authorities are concerned that the deported "illegal" has no right to apply for future visas. The above remains the same irrespective of who is President or which Political Party is in power.

Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Nov 16 - 04:14 AM

Given the laws regarding deportation and the other potential dangers facing illegal immigrants it makes me wonder how desperate some people must be to risk such things. Sat in our warm cosy little worlds I think it is difficult to imagine the desperation people must feel when faced with a survival level decision. I am pretty sure that, for most at least, it is not financial aspirations but pure desperation that drives them to up sticks and risk everything. Class equality should know no national boundaries and give all the people of the world the same opportunities. I do know it is pie in the sky to even hope for that but true socialism is international and to define socialism as purely in the context of your own nation is national socialism. We all know how that ended...

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Our Apology
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Nov 16 - 04:21 AM

"Social "liberalism" in the form of attacks on family values, the Church, traditional forms of parenting, open "marriages""
All created by the establishment you claim to want to replace - all should be the business of the individual and not the state.
Whatever the rights and wrong of religious belief, organised religion has been and continues to be a course or an ally of oppression and death on the planet.
More people have suffered and died in the name of one god or another than for any other single reason.
Forcing couples to live together because of some enforced mystical ceremony is the ongoing cause of suffering - mainly to women and children.
The question of "open marriage" is e
ntirely the business of those concerned; not the state and certainly not religious nut-houses or self appointed spiritual guides.
You really are an anachronism Ake and you still haven't answered my question.
WHAT IS YOUR HONEST OPINION OF TRUMP'S MISOGYNY, HIS RACISM, AND HIS CHOICE OF AN ANTISEMITE AS A POLITICAL PARTNER - FOR OR AGAINST WILL DO?
Maybe your latest offering is the answer I am seeking - you are perfectly happy with a world controlled by a fascist like Trump - despite his record of family values and his rapists view on women.
Jim Carroll