Taking on the Big Boys? - classic big long ballads

Subject: RE: Taking on the Big Boys? - classic big long ballads
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Jan 10 - 08:06 PM

GG
"More thread drift - Is there any reason to believe that the ballads were not the production of 'talented composers' who happened to be 'of the folk?'"
The fact is that we don't know who wrote the ballads or the folk songs, as much as it would be fascinating to find out who did. We can only go on the information we have and until other information is produced we are really stuck with what we have despite the fact that many of us have "spent a lifetime studying both folk song and the broadside ballad and 'popular' music,"
I'm more than happy to move on; I've done my best to shift this topic into areas that have not been covered.
My apologies for any thread drift on my part, but in fairness, I believe the question of who we believe wrote (made is probably a more appropriate word) them is a fundamental part of our understanding and interpretation of them, as I remain convinced that they reflect aspects of the lives and experiences of the makers.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Taking on the Big Boys? - classic big long bal
From: Matt Seattle
Date: 07 Jan 10 - 06:27 AM

"I remain convinced that they reflect aspects of the lives and experiences of the makers"

Absolutely, Jim, and there's also something of necessity in it. It's like Stonehenge - we may not understand it, we may have weird theories, but we KNOW it's not a random bunch of rocks, it was vitally important to the people who made it.

I believe the people who made the ballads had to do it because their life depended on it. They were creators and entertainers and they had their audience/s. Calling them 'folk' or 'not-folk' is a red herring based on ways of thinking we have inherited from Marx et al. The ballad makers knew what they were doing and who they were doing it for - those among whom they lived, from whom they were not separate. In a society such as 16th C Scotland you knew your place (just as you do now), but you also knew everybody else, whatever their rung on the ladder. And it paid to flatter your patron or slander his enemy, and you could change them round depending on who was feeding you that night; or to change the locality of your tale so that your audience had ownership of it - hence the variant versions of the big ballads.

Quite why some of us still find such nourishment in these often dark tales is a mystery - but we do, so thae bards must have got something right.

Subject: RE: Taking on the Big Boys? - classic big long ballads
From: Sheena Wellington
Date: 07 Jan 10 - 06:53 AM

Thank you for the welcome, everyone! Delighted to hear you are going to be singing again, Cuilionn - athibest!

I am not going to get into the "who wrote the English ballads" saga except to mote that most of the 'professional' singers and musicians of the time, i.e. those for whom it was their living, were not of the aristocracy. They were at least as likely to pick up tunes, stories and fragments in the cottage as the castle.

Anyway, to get briefly back to Jeannie and the Mattie Groves question. As many of you know there is a major project
http://www.tobarandualchais.co.uk/ to put the recordings held in The School of Scottish Studies, the BBC Gaelic archive and the Canna Collections online.

Jeannie Robertson seems to have recorded Child 81 twice for the SoSS, once listed as Mattie Groves and once listed as Lord Darnell. Sadly, I did not get the job of cataloguing either version but both will be available sometime in the near, we hope, future.

Just in the passing, like most great ballad singers Jeannie loved songs and singing and she gave as much feeling to a blues number, a sentimental Victorian ballad or a rich piece of ribaldry as she gave to Lord Lovat. One of the jaw-dropping moments for me was when I came across the recording of her singing the art song "The Snowy Breasted Pearl". It was a stunning performance and it seems a shame that she was discouraged from including this type of song in her concerts.

Mind you, having said that, I once saw her at an event in Stonehaven when she gave "There Goes My Heart" the full treatment.........

Subject: RE: Taking on the Big Boys? - classic big long ballads
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 07 Jan 10 - 07:51 AM

Dipping in again...

Another thread reminded me of this Max Hunter - Child Ballads - which might be of possible interest to those discussing presentation of the longer ballads (keeping in mind that the archive is of American singers).

Subject: RE: Taking on the Big Boys? - classic big long ballads
From: GUEST,Crow si
Date: 07 Jan 10 - 08:24 AM

Doh! I didn't check - actually there are only a smattering of long ballads here. But still worth a look.

Subject: RE: Taking on the Big Boys? - classic big long ballads
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Jan 10 - 08:51 AM

Probably taken up too much space but here is a list of Library of Congress commercially issued albums of field recordings of ballads. Many gems among them.
Don't know if they are still available,
Jim Carroll

CHILD BALLADS TRADITION IN THE US ED, B H BRONSON (2 albums)
The Two Sisters (Ch10)                Jean Richie, Viper, Ky 1946
Edward (Ch 13)                        Mrs Crockett Ward, Galax, Vir 1941
The Wild Boar (Ch18)                Samuel Harmon, Maryville, Tenn 193
Bangum and the Boar (Ch18)         G D Vowell, Harlan, Ky 1937
Bishop of Canterbury (Ch45)         Ward H Ford, Central Valley, Cal 1938
Lord Bateman (Ch 53)                Molly Jackson 1935
Lloyd Bateman (Ch53)                Mary Sullivan,        Shafter, Cal 1940
Cherry Tree Carol(Ch54)                Mrs Lee Skeens, Wooten, Ky, 1937
Lazarus (Ch56)                        Molly Jackson, 1939
The Three Babes (Ch79)                Mrs Texas Gladden, Salem, Va 1941
Andrew Bataan (ch167 and 250)        Ward H Ford, Central Valley, Cal, 1938
The King's Love Letter (Ch 208)         Mrs G A Griffin, Newberry, Fl 1937
Well Met My Old True Love (Ch243) Pearl Jacobs Borusky, Antigo, Wis 1940
The Ship(s Carpenter (Ch243)        Clay Walters, Salyersville, Ky 1937
There Was An Old and Wealthy Man        Dol Small, Nellysford, Va 1950 (Ch 272)
Devil And The Farmer's Wife (Ch278)    Carrie Grover, 1941
Oxford Merchant (Ch283)                Ward H Ford, 1938
The Golden Willow Tree (Ch286)         Jimmy Morris, Hazard, Ky 1937
A Ship Set Sail For North America (Ch 286)        Ollie Jacobs, Pearson, Wis 1941
The Mermaid (Ch289)                Emma Dusenbery, Plena, Ark 1936

ANGLO AMERICAN BALLADS ED, ALAN LOMAX,
The House Carpenter                Texas Gladden, Salem, Va 1941
Farmer's Curst Wife                Horton Barker, Chilhowie Va 1939
Gypsy Davy                        Woodie Guthrie, Okema, Okla 1940
Barbara Allen                        Rebecca Tarwatert Rockwood, Tenn1936
Pretty Polly                        E C Ball, Rugby, Va 1941
Rich Old Farmer                        Pearl Borusky, Antigo, Wis 1941
Devil's Nine Questions                Texas Gladden, 1941
Old Kimball
One Morning In May
Little Brown Bulls                        Emery DeNoyer, Rhinelander, Wis1941
The Sioux Indians                        Alex Moore, Austin, Texas 1940
Lady of Carlisle                         Basil May, Salyersville, Ky 1937
Pretty Polly,                         Pete Steele, Hamilton, Ohio l938
It Makes a Long Time Man Feel Bad Convicts, Cumins State Farm, Gould, Ark 1934
0 Lord, Don't 'low Me to Beat 'em        Willie Williams, State Pen Richmond, Va 1936
Lord Bateman                        Pleaz Mobley, Manchester, Ky 1943
Expert Town (Oxford Girl)                Mildred Tuttle, Farmington, Ark 1942
Naomi Wise,                        Lillian Short, Galena, Missouri, 1941
Edward                                Charles Ingenthron, Thornton, Cal 1941
My Parents Raised Me Tenderly         Pleaz Mobley 1943
Froggie Went A courtin'                        
Singing Alphabet                        May K McCord, Springfield, Missouri, 1941
Roly Trudum        
Tree In The Wood                Doney Hammontree, Farmington, Ark
Sourwood Mountain                I G Greer, Thomasville, NC 1941
Derby Ram                        Charles Ingenthron 1941
Widow's Old Broom        
Our Goodman                        Orrin Rice, Harrogate, Tenn 1943
Sweet William (Earl Brand)         IGGreer 1946

ANGLO AMERICAN BALLADS, ED B A BOTKIN,
The Golden Willow Tree                 Justus Begley, Hazard, Ky 1937
The Rambling Boy,        
The Two Brothers                Texas Gladden, Salem, Va 1941
The Four Marys        
The Two Sisters                        Horton Barker, Chilhowie, Va 1939
Lord Thomas and Fair Ellender        Horton Barker,
Bolankins (Lamkin)                Lena Bare Turbyfill, Elk Park, NC 193!
The Three babes                         I G Greer, Thomasville, NC 1941
Sanford Barney
Claud Allen                        Hobart Smith, Saltville, Va 1942

VARIANTS OF BARBARA ALLEN CHARLES SEEGER
I N Marlor, Boyd's Cove, NC 1936, (complete)
George Vinton, San Jose, Cal 1939 (v I and 2)
Mrs T M Bryan, Evansville, Indiana (1938)
(v I and 2)
Monroe Gevedon, (with fiddle) West Liberty, Ky 1937 (v I and 2)
Kitty Richie Singleton, Viper, Ky, 1954 (v 3 and 4)
May Kennedy McCord, Springfield, Miss 1936
Mary Franklin Farmer, Crossnore, NC 1939 (complete)
L L McDowell, Smithville, Tenn 1936
(v I and 2)
Mrs Ollie Womble, Banner, Mississippi 1939
(v I and 2)
Mrs Mary Sullivan, Shafter, Cal 1940 (complete)
Molly Jackson, New York 1935 (complete)
(v I and 2)
Mrs Emma Dusenbury, Mena, Ark 1936 (complete), Dr C L Watkins, Vancleave, Mississippi 1939 (v 1) ,
Samuel Harmon, Maryville, Tenn 1939 (v 2), Oscar Parks, Deuchars, Indiana 1938 (v 1), Ray Hawks, Galax, Va, 1937 (v 2), Bascom Lamar Lunsford, New York, 1935 (v 1), Horton Barker, Chilhowie, Va 1950 (v 1), Mrs W L Martin, Hillsville, Va 1939 (v 6), Mrs G A Griffin, Newberry ,Fl 1937 (v 1), Ward H Ford, Crandon, Wisc 1937 (v 1)
Clyde "Slim" Wilson, Springfield, Miss 1936 (vl), Archie Styles, Newberry, Mich 1938 (v1), H J Beeker, Boone, NC 1936 (complete), Mary and Cora Davis, Manchester, Ky 1937 (v 1), Gants Family, Austin, Texas 1934 (v 1)
Sunshine Robinson, Asheville, N,C 1941 (v 1), Bill Carr, Cherry Lake Farms, Fl 1936 (complete), Rebecca Tarwater, Washington, 1936 (v 1), Moses "Clear Rock" Platt, Central State Farm, Sugarland, Texas 1933

Subject: RE: Taking on the Big Boys? - classic big long ballads
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 07 Jan 10 - 11:03 AM

GSS,
I was referring to the Yorkshire Garland website www.yorkshirefolksong.net which isn't MY website but I was involved.
'Three Score and Ten' is on there, I think sung by 'Three Score and Ten'. If my updated notes are not on then I obviously need to update them.

Rather interestingly the posting immediately following yours: 'Fine by me, Richard' was posted as 'Fine by me, Dick'. Wonder what went on there????

Subject: RE: Taking on the Big Boys? - classic big long ballads
From: Matthew Edwards
Date: 07 Jan 10 - 04:16 PM

Somewhere earlier in this thread Richard Mellish mentioned the Faroese ballad singing tradition; this was, and still is, very much a communal performance where one person leads the singing but everyone else joins in while they all dance together in a continuously moving ring. The ballads are typically of 100 or more verses, and they are performed during the long winter nights up to Shrovetide. I've been listening to some amazing recordings from 1959, including a great version of Harpu Ríma (The Two Sisters) on a CD Traditional Music in the Faroe Islands.

There are some more recent performances of Faroese ballad ringdancing posted on YouTube such as:-
Harra Paetur og Elingburg,
Gudbrandskvaedi,
and many more - but none of them are short!

Matthew

Subject: RE: Taking on the Big Boys? - classic big long bal
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 07 Jan 10 - 06:48 PM

Looks like you can get them on cassette, Jim, e.g. Library of Congress Child Ballads. This is a collection that would be a great one to get on line...

Subject: RE: Taking on the Big Boys? - classic big long ballads
From: sharyn
Date: 08 Jan 10 - 12:59 AM

Okay, I've read almost every word of this thread (skipped a few long disagreements at the end) and this is what I have to say.

I have been singing ballads for years, learning them off records by heart from the time I was four or five years old. I learn them by listening to them and by singing them over and over. When I come across a new version I like I will quite often sing along with it and then sing it by myself and then sing along with it again. Whenever I got a new record I would learn all of the ballads on it that I liked -- one of the things I like about them is the language, so I will sing in Scots, or my best approximation of it, if it is a Scottish version that I am smitten with. When I first happened upon Ewan MacColl recordings I sang quite a lot of Scots ballads.

Eventually, some ballads fade out of my repertoire -- they just don't grab me as much as they did when they were new to me -- or sometimes I hear a version that I like better than any I've ever heard before and will set to learning that one. Some ballads have stayed with me all of my life: I still sing "Barbara Allen" to the tune I first heard for it because I like it the best.

Several years ago I started a Ballad group in Berkeley, simply because some singers at other sessions did not want to hear ballads and ballad-singers needed a place to sing them. A note on singing ballads as duets or in groups: I have learned a few ballads, including their pacing and diction from other members of the group and there are some ballads where we will all chime in on our favorite lines, which no one minds much. Sometimes we hum harmonies softly while someone else carries the ballad -- if they look daggers at us, we stop.

Jon Bartlett: do I like the same singers now I did in my youth? Sometimes I like particular ballads by particular singers and I still like them. I have lots of opinions and preferences. Martin Carthy, for example, often chooses tunes I don't care for, so I tend not to learn things from him, and I only listen to those cuts of his I like. I don't think I will ever get tired of hearing Jeannie Robertson recordings though.

Pace: you have to sing the way you like to sing. Some people will like it, some people won't. And whether to Anglicize -- that depends on your comfort level, too: if you can't get your tongue around a language or find it off-putting, you might want to change it. You can always explain or summarize for audiences. It's not about being obscure or scholarly, Joe: for me, it's about loving the sound of the language (and that goes for the repetitions, too). End of novel.

Good thread.

Sharyn

Subject: RE: Taking on the Big Boys? - classic big long bal
From: GUEST,EKanne
Date: 08 Jan 10 - 07:18 PM

Going way back to a previous post about influential books, I had forgotten to mention David Buchan's book "The Ballad and the Folk". This examines why ballads are so significant in the culture of north-east Scotland that 1/3 of Child's A texts come from that geographical area. And there is a lengthy section where he looks at the differing versions of ballads collected from Mrs. Brown of Falkland over a period of many years, which explores the variations recorded and attempts to offer a theory to explain those differences.
Anyway, it occurred to me that this is very much like the process explored over much of this thread, when singers have discussed their approach to text/final version and all the personal preferences involved.
Remembering that this thread was originally about SINGING, I'd love to know if any visitors to the site have been inspired to follow any of the many suggestions - for tackling particular ballads, or for adjusting/altering their approach to any already in their repertoire.

Subject: RE: Taking on the Big Boys? - classic big long ballads
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Jan 10 - 08:21 PM

EKanne:
David Buchan put forward the interesting suggestion that there were no set texts to ballads, but yhey existed as stories, commonplaces etc. and the singers would improvise each time they sang them.
Don't think he proved his point fully, but fascinating all the same.
One of the exercises we were given in the Critics Group was:
a: to read a song as a piece of poetry - did wonders for the phrasing.
b: to tell the plot of a song as if you were telling it as a story - a great way to analyse and make sense of anything you might have missed.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Taking on the Big Boys? - classic big long ballads
From: Maryrrf
Date: 09 Jan 10 - 10:44 PM

Well I've done it! I just got back from a gig at a coffeehouse where I performed ONLY ballads to a very mixed audience of around 40 people – and it was a success! This was the set list:

House Carpenter
John Reilly
Billy Taylor
Dumiama
Riddles Wisely Expounded
Farmer's Cursed Wife (Kellyburn's Brae version)
Two Magicians
Scarborough Fair
Geordie
Young Waters
Willie of Winsbury
Dowie Dens of Yarrow
Raggle Taggle Gypsies
Andrew Lammie
Mattie Groves
Thomas the Rhymer

It's a nice room, not too big – only a small sound system is needed. It is furnished with a mix of tables and chairs, along with armchairs and sofas – very relaxing. They serve light meals, coffee, tea and also beer and wine.    The concert lasted from 7:00 to 8:45 with no breaks, and the audience paid attention and visibly enjoyed the entire evening. I had several people come up to me afterwards to tell me they'd never heard anything like these songs before, but that they had enjoyed them immensely, and I also sold several CDs.
I gave extensive introductions for each song, sketched out the plot and put it in historical context when I could. I think that was what made it possible to keep their attention. I'm really pleased. The manager wants to have me back – he felt it went over very well.

I have been following this thread, and at times it made me a little bit nervous about this upcoming gig what with some people saying ballads just wouldn't go over any more.   But I rarely get the opportunity to focus on ballads, so I was pretty excited about it and rehearsed a lot, and also made sure I'd prepared my introductions well.   Some of the audience had only heard me at my pub gigs singing stuff like Whiskey in the Jar, but they all said they liked these "different" songs too.

I love the ballads, and it makes me feel very good when I've performed them and they've been appreciated. It was a very nice evening for me!

Subject: RE: Taking on the Big Boys? - classic big long bal
From: Goose Gander
Date: 09 Jan 10 - 11:21 PM

Maryrrf -

I'm glad your set went over well. I sing many of the ballads on your list, there are plenty of reasons why the good ones have been around so long! Did you play any instruments, or go unaccompanied?

Subject: RE: Taking on the Big Boys? - classic big long ballads
From: Don Firth
Date: 10 Jan 10 - 12:12 AM

Way to go, Maryrrf!

It was hearing songs like the ones on your set list that got me actively interested in folk music and ballads back in 1952, and I've been at it ever since.

I found those ballads to be contagious. I'd say that it's a worthy ambition to become the "Typhoid Maryrrf of Balladry." You never know who might hear you and suddenly say to themselves, "I want to do that! I want to sing songs like those!"

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Taking on the Big Boys? - classic big long ballads
From: Maryrrf
Date: 10 Jan 10 - 09:03 AM

LOL that's a good one, Don - the Typhoid Mary of Ballads". But in fact, that's what I hope for whenever I perform ballads - that someone will hear them, get intruiged, and want to learn more. That's what happened to me many years ago, and it has been a very rewarding part of my life. Even if I'd never performed publicly, and just listened to recordings and sung ballads in my living room, the ballads would still have added a diminsion to my psyche.

I accompanied myself on guitar. I have a quiet fingerpicking style, nothing fancy.

I'll have to think of a different set of ballads for next time!

Subject: RE: Taking on the Big Boys? - classic big long ballads
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Jan 10 - 07:31 PM

The number of hits on this thread should lay the ghost that nobody sings ballads anymore - thanks for that CS.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Taking on the Big Boys? - classic big long bal
From: GUEST,EKanne
Date: 11 Jan 10 - 11:42 AM

Maryff -- what an undertaking!
Maybe we've got lazy here (UK), because the only way you'd be likely to hear that number of ballads would be in a session nominated specifically for these Muckle Sangs, where there would be one song from each singer round the room. The different voices would offer variety, but there might also be other variations in style and approach which could be attractive to the listener. From my own point of view, I would be hoping that all the contributors had put in as much effort as you must have done -- to pick interesting songs in interesting versions, look into their backgrounds and have them at the tip of the tongue!

Jim -- I think I mentioned way back that Gordeanna McCulloch and I are offering a series of three workshops to learn ballads and I must say that we've been delighted with the level of interest so far. Our intention is to encourage less confident singers to tackle some of these songs (with support and advice), but we are also pleased that people who have attended workshops in previous years and who sing elsewhere have chosen to sign up too. As you say, a measure of ongoing interest!

Subject: RE: Taking on the Big Boys? - classic big long ballads
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 11 Jan 10 - 12:17 PM

One would hope the dynamic & narrative potency of the Traditional Ballads will one day come to be appreciated beyond the so-called Folk Revival, the MOR orthodoxies of which have so diminished the inherent musical supremacy of this material in much the same way that it has diminished Traditional Folk Song as a whole. To listen to a ballad in the hands of a master traditional singer (try Davie Stewart singing The Dowie Dens of Yarrow or Lizzie Higgins singing Alison Gross) is to be touched by the same hand of transcendent genius as when we listen to a John Coltrane or an Ian Curtis. This is music that grabs you by the heart and reminds you that soul is the generative power of the entire universe; something we humans might touch upon all but too occasionally.

So - along comes The Folk Revival Trilogy replete with its prissy bourgeois sensibilities and proceeds to miss the point, as noted elsewhere, by many merry country miles. The equation is a simple one after all - how can one of the finest musics in the world (i.e Traditional Folk Song & Balladry of the English Speaking World) be represented by one of the worst (i.e. Revival Folk Music)? To what power must we would-be ballad singers address ourselves with respect of that mastery that exists at once as our common vernacular heritage yet one that has been so woefully & consistently misrepresented in terms of its actual cultural significance by the very movement that claims to have its best interests at heart? Ballads are certain in right now, but only as a sub-category of a revival that has all but obscured their true significance, reducing them from the highest achievements of vernacular literature to another fad for the folkish middle-classes to enthuse over.

Interesting that Child never once uses the word Folk; best we be wary of it too.

Subject: RE: Taking on the Big Boys? - classic big long ballads
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Jan 10 - 12:55 PM

"The Folk Revival Trilogy replete with its prissy bourgeois sensibilities and proceeds to miss the point,"
Why do you spoil everything you have to offer with prattish statements?
I would guess the revival introduced virtually all of us on this forum, directly or indirectly, to folk songs and ballads. I was lucky enough to see Jeannie Robertson, Margaret Barry, Michael Gorman Felix Doran, perform, at The Keele Folk Festival, a revival event. They all appeared to be enjoying it just as much as I was
And then there are those I heard thanks to the 'revival' clubs: Joe Heaney, Seamus Ennis, The Stewarts, Lizzie Higgins, Betsy Whyte, Duncan Williamson, Bobby Casey.....
MacColl, the great revivalist, introduced me to 137 of the Child Ballads that I wouldn't otherwise have heard; Lloyd threw in a few score more.
Over the last thirty years the clubs have provided us with a platform to give many of the traditional singers we met with a wider audience. Walter Pardon loved performing at them; Mikeen McCarthy and Mary Delaney were in their element.
And then there's all those other revival performers who have given me so much pleasure over near a half century; Kevin Mitchell, John Lyons, Gordeanna McCulloch.......
Without wishing to remind you of past gaffes - I very much doubt if I would have heard a siingle one of these if I had accepted your definition - how did it go again?
I also doubt if many of the above singers would have been given a look-in at any of the clubs that adhere to your non-definition.
Your vendetta against the revival is as tiresome as it is vacuuous; give it a rest.
".... the word Folk; best we be wary of it too."
The Ballad and The Folk, Folk Song in England, Folk Songs of the Upper Thames, English Folk Songs - Some Conclusions, The Greig Duncan Folk Song Collection........ Now where did I put the paraffin and matches - that should keep us warm in this cold weather.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Taking on the Big Boys? - classic big long ballads
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 11 Jan 10 - 01:10 PM

A non-argument, I fear, Sweeney; since in fact, Child used the word 'Popular' in his title as his synonym for 'folk' - in much the same sense that Brand had used 'Popular Antiquities' to mean what we would call 'folk customs' a century before — see my entry on Folklore in the Continuum Encyclopedia Of British Literature {NY 2003} where I open my entry by dealing with these differing nomenclatures for what we generally call 'Folk'. When Child called his collection 'The English & Scottish Popular Ballads', he certainly did not mean what would nowadays be called 'popular' [or 'pop'] songs.

Subject: RE: Taking on the Big Boys? - classic big long ballads
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 11 Jan 10 - 02:20 PM

Don't take it too seriously, lads - just a little polemic to warm my cockles on a cold & pissed off afternoon on account of a crashed hard-drive during some crucial mixing.

Prattish, Jim? Hardly - the serious bit here is the exalted significance this stuff ought to enjoy as an essential part of the Literary Heritage of the English Speaking World. That it presently languishes as a sub-genre of an ever dwindling minority music is little short of criminal.

Subject: RE: Taking on the Big Boys? - classic big long ballads
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 11 Jan 10 - 02:36 PM

When I read English at Cambridge, Sweeney, The Ballads were indeed taken thus seriously as you demand as part of the Literary Heritage of the English Speaking World: required reading as part of the curriculum to be covered in the Medieval Paper along with such as 'Sir Gawaine & the Green Knight' & 'Pearl'. I never understood why that paper, as they belong rather to Early Modern and even Augustan periods [16-18Cs] in the form we have them: but the examiners for the English Tripos did nevertheless take them seriously as literature, as you require.

Subject: RE: Taking on the Big Boys? - classic big long bal
From: Matt Seattle
Date: 11 Jan 10 - 02:43 PM

Back to Maryff - yes, well done indeed!

At the risk of coming over as a Border chauvinist (born in Kent) I'd point out that the Ballads have some popular currency here. The Ballad competition at Newcastleton last year, held in a packed-to-overflowing schoolroom, fanned the embers of interest I already had, and it was just such an event as Anne Neilson describes above - an hour and a half of ten singers, varied approach, all committed to their sangs, with tactful judging by Alison McMorland and Geordie MacKintyre.

I have several local friends who share the obsession; I recently saw Jimmy Hutchinson sing Dowie Dens wonderfully and to a non-specialist but appreciative audience at a village hall 'variety' concert in Bonchester Bridge; there are (now that I'm aware of them) ballad-related public talks to go to; the local libraries are well-stocked on the subject; and there are people around (hi 'Diva') who learnt from 'tradition-bearers', which makes them tradition-bearers.

Subject: RE: Taking on the Big Boys? - classic big long ballads
From: Brian Peters
Date: 12 Jan 10 - 03:26 AM

"the exalted significance this stuff ought to enjoy as an essential part of the Literary Heritage of the English Speaking World"

The result of exalting ballads as literary treasures was that they became academic artefacts which their enthusiasts, like Francis James Child, never actually heard being sung. The folk revival (as Jim has pointed out) persuaded a lot of people that they were worth singing, and also gave a platform to those - like Jeannie Robertson et al - that had been singing them all along.

Subject: RE: Taking on the Big Boys? - classic big long bal
From: GUEST,EKanne
Date: 12 Jan 10 - 06:19 AM

Well said, Brian -- reminds me of the opening scenes in that smashing wee film "Songcatcher" where Janet McTeer is lecturing passionately in a conservatoire about ballads before demonstrating "Barbara Allan" with piano accompaniment (in a musical but uncommitted voice); within a few minutes she has been transported to Appalachia where she hears an unaccompanied traditional version of the same song. And the scales drop from her eyes!
Personally, I love ferreting away into song versions, folklore etc. - but I'm well aware that for many/most(?) people the story rightly comes first. And I also worry at times about putting ballads on pedestals; I know how important they are to me, but I would hate to scare off someone else who might prefer to enjoy them in a different way.

Subject: RE: Taking on the Big Boys? - classic big long ballads
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 12 Jan 10 - 06:49 AM

When Child called his collection 'The English & Scottish Popular Ballads', he certainly did not mean what would nowadays be called 'popular' [or 'pop'] songs.

Thanks, MtheGM - this actually distracted me from my more pressing concerns last night & lulled me into nice sleepy reverie in which it occurred to me that the use of Popular in both senses is exactly the same. There has been some sterling discussion on the wellsprings of the Big Boys from the - er - Big Boys (Jim, Brian et al) which has shed light on the nature of an essentially creative vernacular tradition in which ballads were wrought by virtue of an idiomatic mastery in precisely the same way pop songs are today. Jim has even suggested many ballads were, in effect, free-styled, which wouldn't surprise me in the slightest, given that free-styling is often the mark of true mastery in many narrative idioms - from Hip-Hop to that of the Serbian bards.

The essential difference would appear to be one of transmission. Time was the only available recording media was Human Memory - which comes supplied with a pair of excellent stereo binaural microphones and, as is supposed, near perfect recall especially when used in a (mainly) non-technological culture where people are more creative by default - thus playback is apt to emphasise the idiosyncratic nature of the thing. In terms of sampling and remixing of existing material there is evidence enough of the sort of fluidic mastery I've been arguing for elsewhere with respect of Folk Song. This is the exact same mastery that would have been commonplace in the trades of the time, so it shouldn't surprise us that ordinary people (so-called) were making & singing these songs any more than a so-called ordinary person (such as a Susan Boyle or an Alfie Boe) can capture the hearts of millions today with what is, in essence, a natural born talent defined by the traditions of their respective cultures.

The nature of Popular Music in both senses is Idiomatically Creative - the idiom being the very wellspring of its creativity, which is the actual germ of The Tradition, determined as it is by the prevailing Zeitgeist which on one hand gives us The Ballad Tradition and on the other The Hip-Hop / Rap Tradition. Both of which are Popular Traditional Musics in precisely the same sense - but neither are Folk as both the common usage of the term and its 1954 Definition renders it essentially meaningless*. Thus whilst we might lose ourselves pondering What is Folk? - or indeed Does Folk Exist? - the nature of Popular Music remains pretty constant throughout history even unto this day - applying equally to the ballads Child included in his collection and to the music we call Pop in all its myriad forms. Both are the results of living traditions of vernacular mastery and creativity - and both are a perfect reflection of the human society in which they were / are created.

S O'P

* As indicated elsewhere the folkloric understanding of the term community has expanded to the extent that the use of the term in the 1954 Definition becomes so nebulous as to make The Horse Definition look pretty exacting by comparison. Thus Folk is either nothing or everything...

Subject: RE: Taking on the Big Boys? - classic big long ballads
From: Brian Peters
Date: 12 Jan 10 - 06:51 AM

"Personally, I love ferreting away into song versions, folklore etc. - but I'm well aware that for many/most(?) people the story rightly comes first."

I love ferreting, too, and I like to discuss the finer points in places like this. In performance, though, it has to be heart and soul, never academic - which of course is your own practice, Anne.

Subject: RE: Taking on the Big Boys? - classic big long ballads
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Jan 10 - 07:07 AM

Sorry SO'P, your last posting was little more than a trip down Memory Lane to Pseuds Corner - ah, the limitations of a Secondary Modern education!!! I hope others got more out of it than I did.
If you really want to re-open an argument on the fatuous comparison of folk and modern popular music, please re-open an old thread and start a new one.
Like EKann, I find myself coming to ballads from two directions. I quite enjoy and get a great deal of pleasure from lifting the corners and looking underneath (Wimberley's Corroboree statement always works for me).
Having said that, the sheer pleasure of the story when they are well sung still makes the hairs on the back of my neck bristle.
It's worth remembering that in the tradition the ballads survived best in the mouths of non-literate Travellers, both in Ireland and Scotland, who enjoyed them as bloody good stories.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Taking on the Big Boys? - classic big long ballads
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 12 Jan 10 - 08:41 AM

Fatuous? Bleedin' hell, Jim - this a celebration of the dynamics of human collective vernacular creativity here. I used to work at a youth club in a ex-mining village. One girl, aged 12 or so, would bring her Karaoke Machine along and amaze everyone by singing her own songs to the pre-recorded backing tracks, which struck me as pretty significant on all sorts of levels. One hand the Celebrity Machine grinds away, but on the other, as with Football, the kids in the backstreet are still dazzling with their innate understanding of the craft in hand. In a Manchester music store (Forsyths) the other week I excused a protracted drooling session over the display of Fender Jazz & Precision bass guitars by listening to a young lad ripping his way through entire chunks of Piper at the Gates of Dawn on one of those weird looking Danelectros. Made me smile anyway - albeit with a consideration of the function & necessity of a Vernacular Traditional Music, if not the actual content, which is, in any case, immaterial to the overall process &, more importantly, experience of the thing. I assumed the stuff he played that I didn't recognise, though of a similar idiom, was his own compositions, or else improvised accordingly...

Subject: RE: Taking on the Big Boys? - classic big long ballads
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Jan 10 - 08:58 AM

You do want to turn this thread into such a discussion - good luck!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Taking on the Big Boys? - classic big long ballads
From: Diva
Date: 12 Jan 10 - 09:21 AM

I think there is plenty of room for the dual approach.....the academic and the singing them just for the love of it and I think it is healthy that we have both.   For me I will always prefer to hear them sung. I remember going to a ballad conference in Glasgow to celebrate 100 years of Child, maybe about 15 years ago, and a fair bit went ower ma heid until Jo Millar got up and sang as part of Dr Emily Lyle's paper..... Since then I have entered into the research and seeking them out and all through my time at Uni ( I went in as a mature student in 2000) I got ballads into everything. They last because they deal with the stuff of life...birth, marriage, death and everything else forbye.

Subject: RE: Taking on the Big Boys? - classic big long ballads
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 12 Jan 10 - 09:41 AM

You do want to turn this thread into such a discussion...

Well, into a discussion anyway - just responding to something MtheGM said, who was responding to something I said, and so these things go on... Process, you see.

*

Otherwise, at this distance from such processes in respect of The Ballad Tradition, can we approach them with pure heart & soul - much as we might EastEnders (which is more soap ballad than soap opera)? And to what extent does heart & soul inspire our academic passions anyway? And vice-versa? Whatever, I reckon Brian had the balance about right at his show at the Fylde last year - invigorating the audience with his authority in both respects.

Subject: RE: Taking on the Big Boys? - classic big long ballads
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Jan 10 - 10:47 AM

Diva,
I think there is room for a dual approach too - but not down this dreary cul-de sac; surely.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Taking on the Big Boys? - classic big long ballads
From: Maryrrf
Date: 12 Jan 10 - 11:47 AM

Without question, I think it is the stories that grab the attention of the general concert audience, and they are enhanced by the beautiful, simple but descriptive language used in the ballads.   I try to give enough background to put the songs in context and if I can find a few anecdotes I'll recount them too. For example, when I sing "Thomas the Rhymer" I might mention his famous prediction about Alexander III's death. Sometimes it helps to have a "flow" too. For example, I sang "House Carpenter" followed by "John Reilly" followed by "Billy Taylor". That enabled me to spin a little yarn about how when people went to sea they might be gone a long time and you'd have no word from them, and they might not come back at all. So what did you do - remain faithful and wait for them ? Find someone else? And if you did, what if they came back? And what about the intrepid young lady who decided to go looking for her sailor lover, and found he'd married another... So the whole concert becomes a narrative. For example, "Geordie" - heartrending injustice and cruelty for somebody who only poached the king's deer. Then followed by "Young Waters" - my god the man's only crime was being good looking, and he was beheaded! Then on to "Willie of Winsbury" - well being good looking saved his skin! And the audience is surprised and delighted by the happy ending.

In some ways it may be harder to sing to a 'ballad savvy' audience. The general audience is surprised and delighted at the twists and turns in the stories. An audience that already knows most of the ballads will be looking at whether or not you can uncover a new and interesting version they hadn't heard, or if you sing a version they know they'll be comparing you to somebody else. And there's no suspense, since they know most of the stories.

An academic lecture is a different matter entirely, and something I wouldn't attempt to do.

Subject: RE: Taking on the Big Boys? - classic big long ballads
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 12 Jan 10 - 12:02 PM

Maryrrf - indeed I know what you mean about reactions of audiences new to the story. Might not be out of place in this connexion, just as rehearsal of similar experience, to draw yr attentn to my post above re Maid Freed from Gallows, 30 Dec, 05.48 AM., which was in response to another post just before saying the poster thought that a dull ballad.

Michael

Subject: RE: Taking on the Big Boys? - classic big long ballads
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 12 Jan 10 - 12:43 PM

I played Matty Groves for a circle of bluegrass pickers one night. The reason was, many of them were familiar with Shady Grove but not Matty. I contend that Matty Groves is the ancestral version. Anyway, I sang the thing in its entirety, with little room for picking breaks (which are the be-all for lots of bluegrassers), and nobody fell asleep. In fact, the story in the song is interesting enough with the sex and violence that I seemed to have everybody's attention. But I'm pretty sure they would balk at a more frequent repetition of it. Timing, I believe, is the key factor in these long ballads.

Subject: RE: Taking on the Big Boys? - classic big long ballads
From: Don Firth
Date: 12 Jan 10 - 01:45 PM

Excellent programming, Maryrrf! That's the way to put a good concert together.

I try to do pretty much the same thing, grouping songs with a similar theme, or putting them together so they seem to form episodes in an even longer narrative.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Taking on the Big Boys? - classic big long ballads
From: Maryrrf
Date: 12 Jan 10 - 02:04 PM

I agree about "Maid Freed from the Gallows", MtheGM, and the repetition helping to create the suspense. I usually sing the American "Hangman" version and I like to mention to the audience that when I first heard this, I assumed it was a man that was being hanged. Then I learned that it was, in fact, a female. (That fact wouldn't be clear in the version that I sing) And the other thing is that I haven't come across any version that mentioned why the hanging was taking place. What was her crime, and what were the circumstances that caused her family to turn against her. This mystery, I feel, gives the audience a chance, while the song is being sung, to picture the scene in their minds and speculate on their own about what the details might be - sort of allows them to fill in the gaps on their own, and draws them into the song.

Subject: RE: Taking on the Big Boys? - classic big long ballads
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 12 Jan 10 - 02:50 PM

Yhank you, Maryrrf - Child's headnote admits most English language versions of Maid Freed [#95] are defective. In most of his versions, it is the judge, rather than the hangman, who is being appealed to — tho this puts the matter back to the sentence, presumably, rather than the actual imminent execution, and so is perhaps less suspenseful & dramatic — tho, predictably, the variants are not always consistent about this: it sometimes appears as if the judge is there to give the hangman the order to get on with it, which scarcely likely, eh?. Altho the generic title given is "The Maid"..., it is sometimes a man. In some of the other European versions, both northern & southern cited by Child over 4½ pages, it is ransom from capture by corsairs &c which is demanded. Sometimes the maid/man is to be executed for having lost a golden key, or ball, which the lover finds at last moment...

But it is the suspense, in whatever version, isn't it? One of those where one feels, never mind why — just let the story work! And, as we agree, doesn't it ever. It is perhaps the one where those two great attributes of balladry, advance of the story by dialogue, and incremental repetition, have the freest rein to work. Along, as you say, with the audience's imaginations.

Subject: RE: Taking on the Big Boys? - classic big long ballads
From: Maryrrf
Date: 12 Jan 10 - 02:54 PM

MtheGM, now that you mention it - I do remember the 'golden ball' version, which is still kind of mysterious!

Subject: RE: Taking on the Big Boys? - classic big long ballads
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 12 Jan 10 - 02:57 PM

... even more mysterious perhaps — who gave her the ball? why? what for? what its purpose? why its loss so sternly punishable???

Subject: RE: Taking on the Big Boys? - classic big long ballads
From: The Sandman
Date: 12 Jan 10 - 03:13 PM

letmefind a charming version of the golden ballSubject: RE: Briery Bush/Prickly Bush/Hangman songs
From: Good Soldier Schweik - PM
Date: 04 Aug 09 - 10:55 AM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I8ZFVD7qkRU
peggy seeger sings it in this interview
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I8ZFVD7qkRU

Subject: RE: Taking on the Big Boys? - classic big long ballads
From: Maryrrf
Date: 12 Jan 10 - 04:13 PM

Take at look at this fairy tale The Golden Ball. Could this be the basis to "Maid Freed from the Gallows" or vice versa?

Subject: RE: Taking on the Big Boys? - classic big long ballads
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Jan 10 - 07:39 PM

There's a beautiful lyrical version of 'Maid' entitled 'The Streets of Derry', as sung by Armagh singer Sarah Makem.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Taking on the Big Boys? - classic big long ballads
From: The Sandman
Date: 13 Jan 10 - 08:28 AM

Jim, you printed the words before, it does look like a good version, Sarah Makem was alovely singer too.
Sam Henry No 705.

1       Oh, it's after morning, there comes an evening.
And after evening another day.
And after a false love, there comes a true one.
It's hard to hold them that will not stay.

2       As he went walking up the streets of Derry,
I'm sure he marched up right manfully;
He was more like a commanding officer
Than a man to die on the gallows tree.

3       The very first step he went up the ladder,
His blooming colours began to fail,
With heavy sighs with dismal cries,
"Is there no releasement from Derry Gaol."

4       The very next step he went up the ladder.
His aged mother was standing by—
"Come here, come here, my old aged mother
And speak one word to me before I die."

5       The very next step he went up the ladder.
His aged father was standing by.
"Come here, come here, my old aged father.
And speak one word to me before I die."

6       The very next step he went up the ladder.
His loving clergyman was standing by.
"Stand back, stand back, you old prosecutors,
I'll let you see that he will not die."

7       "I'll let you see that you dare not hang him.
Till his confession unto me is done;
And after that, that you dare not hang him.
Till within ten minutes of the setting sun."

8       "What keeps my love, she's so long a-coming ?
Or what detains her so long from me ?
Or does she think it a shame or scandal
To see me die on the gallows tree ?"

9       He looked around and he saw her coming.
As she rode swifter than the wind.
"Come down, come down, off that weary gallows.
For I bear pardon all from the Queen."

10    "Come down, come down, off the weary gallows.
For I bear pardon all from the Queen,
I'll let them see that they dare not hang you.
And I'll crown my Willie with a bunch of green."

Subject: RE: Taking on the Big Boys? - classic big long ballads
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 13 Jan 10 - 10:07 AM

Take at look at this fairy tale The Golden Ball. Could this be the basis to "Maid Freed from the Gallows" or vice versa?

This is an odd one because I was long familiar with the story (from Joseph Jacobs' More English Fairy Tales which I first read when I was seven) before I was the song-type (from - er - Led Zeppelin 3, which I first heard when I was nine). I remember the shock upon realising that Zeppelin were singing something from my precious book of folk tales, so, in my head at least, the story in the antecedent of the song! However, Jacobs' notes on the matter don't give too much away (the entire text is on line HERE) apart from the mention of game in Plunket's Merry Games - which I don't have & haven't been able to find further reference to on-line. He seems very keen on the notion of the Cante Fable, rendering Tamlane (and others) in this manner too, so - I've no doubt the essence of Child #95 is a lot older than the story, supposing Jacobs et al weren't above a bit of tinkering by way of improvement...

Subject: RE: Taking on the Big Boys? - classic big long ballads
From: The Sandman
Date: 13 Jan 10 - 10:11 AM

jim,I believe its sung to the tune of anach cuin?

Subject: RE: Taking on the Big Boys? - classic big long ballads
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Jan 10 - 10:23 AM

Cap'n,
"anach cuin"
Never thought about it, but I believe you're right - if not, something very near it.
Jm Caroll

Subject: RE: Taking on the Big Boys? - classic big long ballads
From: Maryrrf
Date: 13 Jan 10 - 12:09 PM

Thanks for posting the full text of "Streets of Derry". I'd only heard the abreviated version.