So what is *Traditional* Folk Music?

Subject: RE: So what is 'TRADITIONAL' Folk Music ?
From: The Sandman
Date: 11 Nov 06 - 03:37 PM

yes, while much of what they have written is good ,they both overwrote.

Subject: RE: So what is 'TRADITIONAL' Folk Music ?
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Nov 06 - 04:51 AM

Guest
I apologise for my somewhat ill-tempered outburst.
It really does come from many years of having been told that thinking too much about music spoils its pleasure. I don't say that was what you were getting at, but that's how I took it.
Nobody on this thread is trying to organise anything - for themselves or anybody else, we are merely responding to a question by expressing opinions.
Sorry again if I took your point wrongly.
Jim Carroll
PS It certainly was not the researchers and academics who spawned the folk industry; I'm afraid that one was down entirely to musicians who wished to make a living out of the music and didn't much care how it was represented - not all musicians, but enough to inflict a great deal of damage from which traditional music has never recovered.

Subject: RE: So what is 'TRADITIONAL' Folk Music ?
From: GUEST,JT
Date: 12 Nov 06 - 11:16 AM

Jim
Forgotten about it already. Anybody with a brain can see that you're sincere and passionate about the music and the song. Keep doing what you're doing, it's great.

Subject: RE: So what is 'TRADITIONAL' Folk Music ?
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Nov 06 - 12:39 PM

Thank you
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: So what is 'TRADITIONAL' Folk Music ?
From: The Sandman
Date: 12 Nov 06 - 12:55 PM

jim ,your criteria would allow jazz to be called traditonal music, while I have no objection ,most jazzers might be slightly confused if they turned up expecting to hear jazz , AND turned up to find that they were listening to Gordon Hall, or Martin Carthy.
ALTERNATIVELY someone expecting to see liam o flynn, might be confused if they found that humphrey lyttleton was their guest.

Subject: RE: So what is 'TRADITIONAL' Folk Music ?
From: Folkiedave
Date: 12 Nov 06 - 03:33 PM

I would really be surprised to turn up and hear Gordon Hall, he died January 24th 2000.

Subject: RE: So what is 'TRADITIONAL' Folk Music ?
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Nov 06 - 05:06 PM

Cap'n,
It's not my definition - but it appears to be the only official one we have. As I have said, I think it merits examination and probably alteration, but I don't think it can be ignored, simply because it's the one that identified the music we signed up for forty years ago.
Any alteration needs to be mutually agreed on otherwise we stop communicating.
If you want to make a case for jazz, fine; I was going to The cavern in Liverpool in the early sixties to listen to "traditional jazz", but even in those days jazz had divided itself up into 'traditional', 'modern', 'big band' and other branches to identify the different categories.
I think I wrote earlier that "human beings put labels on things so they know what tin to open".
The labels are not a value judgement but a form of agreement that we are all talking about the same thing. I believe that thousands of people, myself included, walked away from the folk clubs because the labeling system broke down and we no longer knew what we were going to hear when we attended one.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: So what is 'TRADITIONAL' Folk Music ?
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Nov 06 - 05:17 PM

I am working on recordings Pat and I did of Walter Pardon, the last of the big-repertoire English traditional singers.
I though you might be interested on the different types of song in his repertoire. Walter had a fair number of non-traditional songs in his repertoire but he had no problem identifying them.

J C   If you had the choice Walter… if somebody said to you one night they were going to ask you to sing say half-a-dozen or a dozen songs even, of all your songs, what would be the choice, can you think offhand what you would choose to sing?

W P The Pretty Ploughboy would be one, that's one; Rambling Blade would be another one, The Rambling Blade would be two, Van Dieman's Land three, Let The Wind Blow High or Low, that'd be four, Broomfield Hill, that's five, Trees The Do Grow High, six, that'd be six.

J C Do you think that when you started singing in the clubs and festivals, do you think you think you are singing any different than you were singing when you were younger?

W P Dash, yes, I think so.

J C Do you know in what way?

W P Oh, I don't know, put more expression in probably, I think so. Well, but you see, you take these, what we call the old type… the old folk song, they're not like the music hall song, are they, or a stage song, there's a lot of difference in them. I mean a lot of these… some … it all depend what and how you're singing. Some of them go to nice lively, quick tunes, and others are… you don't do Van Dieman's Land… If there's a sad old song you don't go through that very quick. Like Up to the Rigs is the opposite way about.
I mean, we must put expression in, you can't sing them all alike. Well most of the stage songs you could, if you understand what I mean. According to what the song is you put the expression in or that's not worth hearing, well that's what I think anyhow.   And as I never did sing them, you see, there was no expression I could put in.

J C Alright; take another song; take something like Marble Arch and Maid of Australia, both of which are fairly amusing, anyway, would you see any difference in them?

W P Well yes, because there's a difference in the types of the music, that's another point.
You can tell Van Dieman's Land is fairly old by the sound, the music, and Irish Molly and Marble Arch is shortened up, they shortened them in the Victorian times. And so they did more so in the Edwardian times. Some songs then, you'd hardly start before you'd finish, you see, you'd only a four line verse, two verses and a four line chorus and that'd finish. You'd get that done in half a minute, and the music wasn't as good. Yeah, the style has altered. You can nearly tell by the old Broomfield Hill, that's an old tune; The Trees They Do Grow High, you can tell, and Generals All.
Nine times out of ten I can get an old fashioned ten keyed accordion, German tuned, you can nearly tell an old… what is an old song. Of course that doesn't matter what modern songs there is, the bellows always close when that finish, like that. And you go right back to the beginning of the nineteenth and eighteenth they finish this way, pulled out, look. You take notice how Generals All finish, that got an old style of finishing, so have The Trees They Do Grow High, so have The Gallant Sea Fight, in other words, A Ship To Old England Came, that is the title, The Gallant Sea Fight. You can tell they're old, the way they how they… That drawn out note at finish.   You just study and see what they are., how they work., you'll find that's where the difference is.
And as that got further along; that's where I slipped up with Black Eyed Susan; I thought that was probably William the Fourth by the music, but that go back about to 1730, that one do.
Well a lot of them you'll find, what date back years and years, there's a difference in the style of writing the music as that progressed along, that kept altering a lot. Like up into Victorian times, you've got Old Brown's daughter, you see, that come into Victorian times; well that style started altering, they started shortening the songs up, everything shortened up, faster and quicker, and the more new they get, the more faster they get, the styles alter, I think you'll find if you check on that, that's right.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: So what is 'TRADITIONAL' Folk Music ?
From: The Sandman
Date: 12 Nov 06 - 06:17 PM

Walter was singing about songs that ended on the draw on the ten keuy single row accordion,as being old. songs that were either in the dorian mode or ending on the dominant chord.
Of course songs that were in the mixolydian mode, flat7 [ equally old] he couldnt have played on his box , So walters analysis is incorrect,.
And I love her, written by lennon and macartney, is also in the Dorian mode , not old but old sounding, BUT still not traditional or old. Walter WAS a fine singer but was out of his depth on determining what was old.

Subject: RE: So what is 'TRADITIONAL' Folk Music ?
From: The Sandman
Date: 12 Nov 06 - 06:29 PM

FOLKIE DAVE ,you hopefully understood the essence of my thread
.Do I really have to rephrase my thread to put if a punter turned up before the year 2000 expecting to hear Gordon Hall,. aaaargh.

Subject: RE: So what is 'TRADITIONAL' Folk Music ?
From: Folkiedave
Date: 12 Nov 06 - 06:44 PM

I just thought I would toss the following quote into the ring. It comes from Gramsci.

""That which distinguishes folksong in the framework of a nation and its culture is neither the artistic fact nor the historic origin; it is a separate and distinct way of conceiving life and the world, as opposed to that of 'official' society."

Subject: RE: So what is 'TRADITIONAL' Folk Music ?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 13 Nov 06 - 01:41 PM

"I believe that thousands of people, myself included, walked away from the folk clubs because the labeling system broke down and we no longer knew what we were going to hear when we attended one."

That very well may be true. Still, it might have been for the best because the music has never been better. Jim, I would make a case that 40 or 50 years ago when those thousands of people started attending the clubs for the first time, they were responding to an increased commercial perception to the music. Here in the U.S. it was actually "cool" and "hip" to walk into a coffeehouse or spend a Sunday afternoon sharing music at Washington Square Park. When the folk era - or should I say folk error - ended, the music was left in the same shape that it was found.

While I understand that the statement bothers you, I have to respectully say that I do believe that many people spend to much time thinking about the music and missing the pleasures that can be derived from it.

Please understand, I am not saying that it wrong to study, collect and preserve the music. I think the opposite is true. It is important, and fun, to learn about the music and try to understand it in context.   This is highl enjoyable and there is a wealth of beauty to be gained by listening to what you and others term "traditional". Believe me, I do understand and respect your definition.

What gives me "ill tempered outbursts" is when I hear people dismiss contemporary music just because it is contemporary. There are many people that will make statements as if it is a badge of honor to walk out of folk clubs because they are hearing a singer-songwriter. No one forces anyone to take a liking to a music that does not appeal, but I think it is wrong to show disrespect to another persons art.

I may think that singing sea chanties are a silly pastime for landlubbers, or to hear college students who never left the suburbs singing songs of coal miners leaves a bad taste. But no, I think people learn something from by doing just that.

To me, "folk" music has been a way of learning about the past or learning about the people who made the music. I'll be damned if I am going to let a textbook definition stop me from learing something from a songwriter from Texas who happens to be writing a song about a personal event.

This morning on the radio I heard a host talking to Judy Collins. He said something to the effect - " it is wonderful to be able have a life while artists like Leonard Cohen are walking the earth.". To be able to experience music from writers like Dylan, Cohen, John Prine and so many others IS a contemporary TRADITION.   

You might not be attending folk clubs these days, but you can rest assured that there are thousands who have replaced you and are enjoying the songs that are being created today.   No, it will not fit a textbook definition, but it doesn't have to.

Live and let live.

Subject: RE: So what is 'TRADITIONAL' Folk Music ?
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Nov 06 - 03:09 PM

Cap'n,
Walter was not wrong; he was using his 'melodeon test' on his own repertoire and as far as I can judge he was pretty accurate.
However, you missed my point; perhaps I didn't make it well enough.
One of the most persistent arguments against discriminating between traditional and non traditional songs is that traditional singers didn't, so why should we? In our experience this is not true. In the cases were we were able to ask singers about their songs, all of them regarded traditional songs differently from others in their repertoire, though they may not use the same terms as we would (Mary Delaney always talked about "my Daddy's songs" - she learned very few from her father). Other Irish singers commonly talked about traditional or come-all-ye's.
Walter, who was in my opinion one of the most important English singers of the twentieth century, (along with fellow East Anglians Harry Cox and Sam Larner) was the most articulate of the singers we recorded and always called his traditional material 'folk songs'. From his notebooks he was discriminating about his family's songs as early as 1947 when he first started writing them down.
This thread seems to be treading water at the moment (hardly surprising – it's nearly run as long as 'The Mousetrap').
I don't know whether we answered Soldier Boy's question to his satisfaction – god knows we tried, and we even avoided being abusive (except me – sorry).
In his last posting he asked a question about our specifying the songs we would regard as traditional folk – and I added the suggestion that we gave our reasons. If people feel this is not worth doing I am not sure where we go from here; maybe we should quit while we are ahead, before we run completely out of steam
Jim Carroll
PS Ron, can't speak for the States, but it's certainly not been the case in the UK if my recent experiences with the clubs are anything to go by - out-of-tune singing of anything from pop songs of various eras of the 19th and 20th centuries to navel gazing; on several occasions performed by 'singers' reading them from crib sheets.
Sorry, don't regard either Cohen or Dylan as traditional unless you stretch the word out of shape until it becomes meaningless.

Subject: RE: So what is 'TRADITIONAL' Folk Music ?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 13 Nov 06 - 03:21 PM

"don't regard either Cohen or Dylan as traditional unless you stretch the word out of shape until it becomes meaningless"

I would not regard Cohen or Dylan as "traditional" in your sense of the word either, because the word is meaningless. I would hate anyone to start calling these artists traditional, but I would say they come from a tradition.

Your mention of the word "navel gazing" - which admittedly I have used as well, indicates a preconceived notion that closes the door on other forms of music. I used to call them singer-songwhiners, until I realized that there ARE some important songs out there.

I personally do not have a need to put a label on these songs, but I do understand that their origin is indeed important. As I am seeing in this thread, when labels are attached to song it will begin to shut out a segment of the audience that could actually learn and enjoy the music if they had more of an open mind.

Labels are great in a kitchen, but if I am eating a slice of cake my senses are not going to stop and read the ingredients first. While it might be benefitial for me to do so for health reasons, I do not want to let my hatred for coconut stand in the way of tasting the cake to see if I like it. If the coconut is too strong, I will spit it out and move on. If it is mixed in just right, like in a pina colada, I just may enjoy it enough to try a second piece.   I am just glad that the cook took the time to figure out the ingredients and proper proportions so that I could enjoy my dessert.

Subject: RE: So what is 'TRADITIONAL' Folk Music ?
From: The Sandman
Date: 13 Nov 06 - 04:19 PM

Dear Jim,Walter said[nine times out of ten,I can get an old fashioned ten key accordion German tuned. You can nearly tell what is an old song].
so if Walter was only referring to his own repertoire and how he defined it was old ,and not as a litmus code for others to define what was old, whats its relevance. The point is its a flawed way of defining whats old.
because, modern writers can write tunes in the dorian mode[they are modern songs, perhaps written in a traditional style, but they are not old or traditional[ and I love her[[ BEATLES]]]
NORWEGIAN WOOD which appears to have one part in the mixolydian mode and one part in the dorian, it might sound traditional but it is written by Lennon and MCartney. royalties are due to the owners it is modern not traditional.DickMiles

Subject: RE: So what is 'TRADITIONAL' Folk Music ?
From: danensis
Date: 13 Nov 06 - 04:51 PM

My definition of a traditional song is one we sang in the school hall on a rainy lunchtime.

Believe it or not the pianist was called Miss Tune, and she could rattle off "Men of Harlech" or "The Lincolnshire Poacher" in a unique and inimitable style.

Subject: RE: So what is 'TRADITIONAL' Folk Music ?
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Nov 06 - 06:30 PM

Cap'n
The point was he knew some of his songs were of a considerable age and others were not.
He noted the musical charactaristics in those of HIS songs he regarded as old. He compared them with the musical charactaristics of other songs in HIS repertoire (none of which were written by L and Mc). As far as his songs went he was accurate in his assumption.
As I have said - this is beside the point - he believed there were differences in the songs musically and poetically and he tried to work them out - the music was just a part of his definition.
Ron
The need to put labels on songs only arises when you are trying to promote them (Folk Clubs) or do discuss them.
You may wish to do neither, but this question arose from somebody who wanted to discuss them - he certainly got that. I really don't think there is a huge gulf between our views - neither of us would mistake Dylan for Dillard Chandler.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: So what is 'TRADITIONAL' Folk Music ?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 13 Nov 06 - 07:21 PM

Jim, I think you do have a point about folk clubs.   Here in the U.S. it is a bit different since we really do not have clubs like those that exist on your side of the Atlantic. Here in the U.S., I don't think there is that much emphasis on the type of music that is being performed. Usually promoters will give enough of a description that the audience will know what kind of performer they are going to see.

I guess it is just cultural differences, and as you correctly pointed out - our views are actually very similar.

Subject: RE: So what is 'TRADITIONAL' Folk Music ?
From: GUEST,Stuart P
Date: 13 Nov 06 - 11:34 PM

Traditional folk music is what's left over when the good stuff's all been copyrighted.

Subject: RE: So what is 'TRADITIONAL' Folk Music ?
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Nov 06 - 02:10 AM

Ron,
Has there, in your experience, ever been an urban audience in the States for singers like Dillard Chandler the Hammonds or Ted Ashlaw -if so, was it just festivals?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: So what is 'TRADITIONAL' Folk Music ?
From: Scrump
Date: 14 Nov 06 - 04:11 AM

From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 13 Nov 06 - 01:41 PM

Ron, well said - I agree with what you say in this post.

Subject: RE: So what is 'TRADITIONAL' Folk Music ?
From: Folkiedave
Date: 14 Nov 06 - 05:07 AM

The point was he knew some of his songs were of a considerable age and others were not.

Interstingly Jim there is a passage in "Travellers Songs from England and Scotland".....P19)that backs this up very well.

....we would like to comment on the fact the certain songs within the repertoire of a creative singer were not given the same treatment as other songs. For instance both Mr. Ridley and Mrs Hughes sang "Twenty One Years" wth almost none of their characteristic improvisation. "Green grows the Laurel" was rarely decorated by any of our singers. These are semi-popular songs sometimes learned from recordings or from the radio, songs which are understood to exist in one version only. They seem to remain unchanged, unaffected by a singer's creativity, although they are widely sung.

Subject: RE: So what is 'TRADITIONAL' Folk Music ?
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Nov 06 - 02:01 PM

Dave
I would go along with that; the tendency to repeat exactly as it was heard from the radio was very common with the singers we met.
It's the old story of Walter Scott collecting ballads from James Hogg's mother, who told him, "Now you've written them down you've killed them".
Walter on the other hand learned nearly all his songs from family and neighbours and had picked up his singing style from his uncle, so he sang everything in his uncle's style (we think!)
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: So what is 'TRADITIONAL' Folk Music ?
From: Folkiedave
Date: 14 Nov 06 - 05:18 PM

Subject: RE: So what is 'TRADITIONAL' Folk Music ?
From: Folkiedave
Date: 14 Nov 06 - 05:26 PM

Ooops.

I'd like to extend that with a thought that came to me after I wrote the quote. I accept wholeheartedly what Ewan and Peggy say there and also that your experience mirrors that.

But we also know that some - let me call them source singers for now - mistakenly say "Now this is a really old song" - when we know it isn't.

Also we know that most of what we call traditional songs can be found on broadsides. I would have thought that broadsides were the "radio" of their day and thus would not be much changed in the same way that songs learnt off the radio aren't. And yet I suspect some broadside ballads seem to have been and others haven't.

I can't think of precise examples so some of this is being dredged up from my memory.

Which may just be fading.

Dave

Subject: RE: So what is 'TRADITIONAL' Folk Music ?
From: The Sandman
Date: 14 Nov 06 - 06:10 PM

Traditional folk music, is clearly not easy to define.
like beauty and perception it is in the eye of the beholder, and we are wasting our time trying to define it.

Subject: RE: So what is 'TRADITIONAL' Folk Music ?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 14 Nov 06 - 07:23 PM

"Has there, in your experience, ever been an urban audience in the States for singers like Dillard Chandler the Hammonds or Ted Ashlaw -if so, was it just festivals?"

Oh yes. I think you could say that it was the interest of urban audiences to discover the rural music that led to the folk revival. When you look at people like Pete Seeger, Mike Seeger, Ramblin Jack Elliot and others - these were all city kids or people from middle class homes that were trying to learn from source artists.

Everything is in perspective though, I doubt if Ted Ashlaw would have sold out Carnegie Hall if he had the opportunity, but there were enough people interested in his music for record labels like Rounder to release LP's in the 1970's. We aren't talking huge sales, but there was and still is enough interest to generate sales.

What would also happen back then is that people would learn a few songs and then start sharing them, and perhaps one of the "name" artists would record it.

I actually see a lot of younger people starting to do the same. There are groups like the Mammals who will turn a trad tune on its head so that people of our generation might not recognize it, but I sincerely think they are doing the same thing that other generations did before them - learn from the source and take something to make your own.

Subject: RE: So what is 'TRADITIONAL' Folk Music ?
From: Scrump
Date: 16 Nov 06 - 07:36 AM

Just a few more thoughts on this.

Every song or tune must have been composed by some individual or group of people, however long ago it was. The authorship of many old songs/tunes is unknown simply because nobody bothered to record the authorship for future generations. At the time a song was composed, people hearing it for the first time would know it was (say) a "Joe Bloggs the Fiddler" tune or a "Fred Smith song". The fact that we have lost this information doesn't make it any less true that each of those songs and tunes were composed by a specific person.

There are plenty of songs and tunes where the author is known, but they are nevertheless out of copyright. Are these songs be denied being called "traditional", just because we know the author's identity? If two songs were written in (say) 1820, and the authorship one one of them is known to be "Fred Bloggs", and the other's authorship has been lost, is only the latter allowed to be called "traditional", even though they might be very similar in style?

One day in the distant future (assuming the survival of the human race), the songs being written today might become known as "traditional", if somehow their authorship is lost (seems unlikely but who can tell?).

If a song or tune is written today in a "traditional" style, why can't we call it "traditional", anticipating that it will become so in years to come? Why do we have to wait?

Any thoughts folks?

Subject: RE: So what is 'TRADITIONAL' Folk Music ?
From: Snuffy
Date: 16 Nov 06 - 08:41 AM

Here's my PoV - feel free to shoot at anything you don't agree with.

"Traditional" describes what happens to a song once it is released into the wild, not where it originally came from.

"Anonymous", "old" and "traditional" are not interchangeable terms: a song can be any combination, all or none of these. Songs of unknown authorship are "anonymous". They may have been written yesterday or 500 years ago.

If there is a tradition of singing a particluar song, it may be regarded as "traditional", totally irrespective of whether the author is known or not. If the song has been in some way altered by this process we are on firmer ground in regarding it as "traditional"

Subject: RE: So what is 'TRADITIONAL' Folk Music ?
From: greg stephens
Date: 16 Nov 06 - 12:08 PM

Scrump: the reason you shouldn't call your song written today traditional is simple. It may be written in a traditional style, but it hasn't become traditional yet. Same reason you'd be tempting fate in looking at a baby and calling it a man or a woman. That takes time, and there's many a slip twixt cup and lip. The new song you refer to may be brilliant, but that doesn't make it traditional. Time alone can do that, and many people.

Subject: RE: So what is 'TRADITIONAL' Folk Music ?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 16 Nov 06 - 01:58 PM

Not to cloud the waters any futher, but here is the American Heritage definition of "traditional" : "Of, relating to, or in accord with tradition: a traditional wedding ceremony."

You would not call a baby a "man" or a "woman", but you would call it "male" or "female".

Face it, a hole can be blown in any arguement that attempts to create a definition of traditional folk music.   It is what it is.

Subject: RE: So what is 'TRADITIONAL' Folk Music ?
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Nov 06 - 04:08 AM

Dave,
The term 'old' which we found to be used regularly by source singers, is an odd one.
One of our best and most stylish singers, the blind Travelling woman, Mary Delaney had a large repertoire of traditional songs. These included several which had been made by Travellers themselves within say five or ten years of our recording them. They were usually about other Travellers - successful business transactions, selling livestock, playing tricks, personal experiences – in other words, everyday events of Travelling life. Many of these songs referred to people who were still living. She gave us one song and told us, "don't play that to anybody; it's about my cousin and he'll be furious if he hears it". All of these type of song Mary referred to as "old" and on every occasion she (and other singers) did not know who the authors were.
On the other hand, Mary also had a number of American country songs, some dating back to the 1930s and 40s which she described as "modern". Incidentally, She persistently refused to allow us to record her "modern" songs because she said that she only sang them because she had only learned them "to sing in the pub because that's what the lads asked her to sing". She insisted that if we wanted the "old" songs, that's what we were going to get!
As far as I can see the term 'old' refers to a type of song and its subject and function rather than its age.
I agree entirely with Snuffy, Greg and Ron; the tradition is a process and a song has to go through that process before it can wear the tee-shirt.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: So what is 'TRADITIONAL' Folk Music ?
From: Scrump
Date: 17 Nov 06 - 10:27 AM

I agree entirely with Snuffy, Greg and Ron; the tradition is a process and a song has to go through that process before it can wear the tee-shirt

Fair enough. I think we're all agreed on that - you can't just write a new song or tune in 'traditional' style, and say immediately that it's traditional. Something has to happen to it first - but what, exactly? Who decides when a song has 'been through the process' and declares "this song is now traditional"?

For example, the jig "Calliope House" (composed by Dave Richardson) is considered by many (including me) to be one of the finest jigs written by a modern-day composer. The tune is widely played in sets, usually alongside others of unknown authorship that most people would say are indisputably traditional.

How much more time has to pass, and what else has to happen, before Calliope House can be declared "traditional" - and who decides?

Don't get me wrong, I'm not arguing against the idea that a song/tune has to become traditional after some sort of process, but I'm trying to find out what that process has to be.

Subject: RE: So what is 'TRADITIONAL' Folk Music ?
From: Folkiedave
Date: 17 Nov 06 - 12:14 PM

I am enjoying this!! It brings back those nights years ago over large glasses of whatever hooch we had available.

Let me throw this one into the equation.

On Sunday I shall be in the pub singing along with a load of others the traditional carols wiped out when Hymns Ancient and Modern drove them from the churches and (in our area) into the pub.

We call them traditional and indeed no other description would fit this, described as "one of the most remarkable instances of popular traditional singing in the British Isles".

Similar traditions exist in Cornwall at Padstow, (who have exported it with their miners to Grass Valley California and to Australia)and in Glen Rock Pennsylvania where a small pocket of these carols exist thanks to some people who went there in 1848 and wanted to celebrate Xmas like they did back in England.

There are other areas of such singing in the UK, notably in Odcombe Somerset, discovered in the early 1970's. And a revived tradition in Canada.

Yet thanks to meticulous research by Ian Russell we know the author of the vast bulk of these carols and generally they remain unaltered from the originals.

Yet virtually all of these are learnt orally - I did and so did most of the people who go regularly. We continue to change by introducing new (old) carols - also all written down, and I can remember many of these changes and why they came in.

So there we are, by those who have listened clearly traditional, learnt orally, yet written down with known authors and unchanged!!

Errrr..........

And it starts Sunday - can't wait!!!!!!

Dave

Subject: RE: So what is 'TRADITIONAL' Folk Music ?
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Nov 06 - 03:37 PM

Nice one to think about Dave.
You might also add The Copper's book of songs which fixed the texts of their repertoire.
On the other hand, the Travellers, basically a pre-literate group, had an enormous influence on the song tradition here in Ireland by having printed and distributing their songs on ballad sheets and selling them round the fairs and markets (wonderful dichotomy).
There are exceptions to all rules.
Jim Carroll
As you have stated your enjoyment of this thread in such glowing terms, I think this means you owe us all a pint!

Subject: RE: So what is 'TRADITIONAL' Folk Music ?
From: Soldier boy
Date: 18 Nov 06 - 09:28 PM

Hello again people.

When I naively started this thread I had no idea it could possibly go on so long and attract such deep and meaningful intelligent discussion. I really feel indebted to the regular contributors on this thread (you know who you are).
If I was about to write a thesis on Traditional Folk Music I would be more than informed about what to write just by scrolling through this thread.
That's fantastic!

Your very well considered and knowledgable contributions have shown me that compared to the main contributors my knowledge of the subject is very limited, or at least it used to be because I and many others are now much more informed.THANK YOU.
It is a far more complex and contentious subject than I ever imagined. I still hope that we can eventually arrive at some kind of consensus but I won't hold my breath.

Out of interest I thought I would throw this into the discussion and ask you to look at the Mudcat thread on this same page entitled "Why do our songs last so long?"

I found this thread to be very interesting because so many contributors to this thread have expressed very similar views to some of our most hardened contributors.

Bye the way in terms of longevity this thread is looking at the time /duration that songs have been around as opposed to the time that songs take to perform/length of verses etc.

Just an idea to compare notes and look for any commonality.

A bit of cross-fertilisation can't be bad if it helps to add to this very worthwhile discussion.

What do you think ?

Subject: RE: So what is 'TRADITIONAL' Folk Music ?
From: Azizi
Date: 19 Nov 06 - 02:48 AM

Here's an old African proverb "To stumble is not to fall but to go forward faster"

And here's a oldish American proverb-"If you're in for a penny, you might as well be in for a buck {or something like that}.

Sooo-all that to say- here is the new Susanna not like the Old Susanna but Susanna still the same [at least the girl's name hasn't changed].

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fui5VRsyg3A&NR

Osuofia - Susana
[Nkem Owoh Singing]

Added June 14, 2006 ;From bogene2020

But-if they could, would the folks who made up that Old Susanna song still be singing it now the same way that they used to sing it then?

And should they be singing it the same way-all the time? I thought improvisation was a huge part of what made traditional music traditional {maybe that's just some forms of traditional music}.

Does the call & response techniques used in this song make it traditional or at the very least traditional-like [this for those who say you can't know the composer of a traditional song].

But maybe the very fact that it is recorded nowadays and credited to a known composer means that folks would not do what they used to do with songs-use the folk process to "tweak" the words, adding to them or substituting other words for them-maybe using another female name in the song [or changing the gender of the song all together].

I'm just saying...

Subject: RE: So what is 'TRADITIONAL' Folk Music ?
From: Azizi
Date: 19 Nov 06 - 03:14 AM

In other words, have we deified the songs that somehow got saved but turned our backs on the process that created those songs?

Subject: RE: So what is 'TRADITIONAL' Folk Music ?
From: Folkiedave
Date: 19 Nov 06 - 05:25 AM

Hi Jim,

I am happy to buy you a pint anytime whenever we next meet. That goes for all the other contributors to this thread!!

And looking at Soldier Boy's contribtion next to mine - looks like he might make the same offer!!

Not fixed any festivals with the book stall next year so far except....no perhaps it is best not to mention it.

Carols - here I come!!

Dave

Subject: RE: So what is 'TRADITIONAL' Folk Music ?
From: Herga Kitty
Date: 19 Nov 06 - 05:09 PM

I agree with Snuffy...

Kitty

Subject: RE: So what is 'TRADITIONAL' Folk Music ?
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 Nov 06 - 02:45 PM

Sowhat is traditional folk music .                         Traditional folk music is exciting. Full Stop.

Subject: RE: So what is 'TRADITIONAL' Folk Music ?
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Nov 06 - 03:07 PM

I have deliberately not responded to Soldier Boy's last posting, thought provoking as it is, as I have the uncomfortable feeling that a few of us have been monopolising this thread - I have certainly enjoyed it but I would have liked to have heard from others (promise I won't be abusive again!)
Nobody has mentioned if they think there is an identifiable style that is part of the definition of 'traditional folk music.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: So what is 'TRADITIONAL' Folk Music ?
From: Folkiedave
Date: 20 Nov 06 - 03:29 PM

I think I can recognise it enough to my own satisfaction.

I have spent a lot of time abroad at foreign festivals and some of the teams do sing traditional music and it goes down a bomb. In 2004 in Hungary there waiting around as usual - there were four Bulgarian singers singing harmony in quarter tones - with harmonics arising out of the mixture of voices.

I can still hear them whenever I want to.

That's tradition!!

(On the other hand we made most contact with groups by singing Beatles numbers which are universal).

Subject: RE: So what is 'TRADITIONAL' Folk Music ?
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Nov 06 - 07:48 PM

MacColl and Seeger carried out a test with Joe Heaney when they were recording him (see Road From Connemar - mid 1960s)
They played about twenty records of traditional and non-traditional singers from various countries, mainly Europe, and asked if he could tell which were traditional and which were not.
He got over three quarters right.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: So what is 'TRADITIONAL' Folk Music ?
From: Soldier boy
Date: 21 Nov 06 - 08:15 PM

Jim Carroll, please do respond to my last posting.
A few of you have been monopolising this thread,it is true, BUT whilst I found it initially irksome I now believe the opposite.
The contributions from 'the few' have been extremely well informed and of real value to this thread and to myself and many others.
Without you this thread would have died long ago and would never have attracted such quality and diversity of debate.
It is what I hoped for when I opened this discussion,but frankly did not expect to get.
I have been delighted with the response.
This thread may have run its course or it may roll on, either way I am very content.
Thank you to everyone who has contributed.

Subject: RE: So what is 'TRADITIONAL' Folk Music ?
From: greg stephens
Date: 22 Nov 06 - 05:42 PM

It seems that we have all been totally wrong on the definition of "traditional". On another tthread there is a discussion of the nominations for the Mike Harding BBC Folk Awards. Apparently one of the nominations for best traditional recording is Seth Lakeman doing a song he has written about a hare. Now, that's the BBC, it must be official. Now, as a matter of interest, is there a single contributor to this thread who might agree with that?

Subject: RE: So what is 'TRADITIONAL' Folk Music ?
From: Snuffy
Date: 22 Nov 06 - 06:19 PM

Presumably it's a traditional recording because it was recorded onto a mechanical device such as a tape or disk rather than a new-fangled solid-state device

Subject: RE: So what is 'TRADITIONAL' Folk Music ?
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Nov 06 - 04:12 AM

This discussion has centred largely around whether the present generation of singers can validly describe themselves as part of 'the song tradition' (not a – but THE song tradition; I think we are talking mainly about a body of song that is held in common by all English speaking peoples) and whether the terms 'traditional' and 'folk' are any longer valid. As far as I am concerned the answer to these questions is no, yes, and maybe respectively.
The song tradition, as distinct from the hand loom weaving tradition, or the traditional way of making pig-iron or painting designs on cups or stitching carpets, implies the making and performing of a certain type of SONG in a particularly identifiable way for certain specific reasons.
I believe our song tradition existed and persisted as long as it did out of necessity. The people who made, performed and passed on the songs did so because they felt the need to express themselves, their experiences, their emotions and aspirations, and by and large, as they didn't have the facility of literacy freely at their disposal, they either created songs or they borrowed and adapted existing songs in order to fulfill this function.
By and large our traditional singers, certainly latterly, were from isolated, close-knit (and usually economically poor) communities. During the time I have been involved in traditional song, if I wanted to hear a traditional ballad straight out of the horse's mouth, I would, more likely as not, have had to go along to my local Travellers site (certainly this has been the case in Ireland and Scotland).   
The song tradition, as far as I can judge, is now dead. Of course traditions die – I can no longer go into town and see a bear being torn to pieces by dogs (should I want to), or be part of an audience participating in the festivities of a public hanging, or take part in a Frost Fair and go skating on the Thames – those traditions are long gone.
People no longer participate in the making of songs out of necessity, but by and large are content to be passive recipients of the creations of the privileged and talented (sometimes) few (Bob Coltman aptly described this as the 'Homer Simpson generation – DOH).
I believe it would be presumptuous of us to claim that we are in any way part of the tradition, but rather, it is far more honest to recognise that we have been lucky (or astute) enough to have see the value of songs created by previous generations and have taken them into our own lives.
The least we can do is acknowledge our debt to the Walter Pardons, Harry Coxs, Sam Larners, Mary Anne Carolans, and all those who have been generous enough to pass on their songs to us, and to see that what we have been bequeathed is passed on for future generations to appreciate.
I think the best way we can do this is not to juggle with semantics and try to alter long accepted definitions (Newspeak, George Orwell called it), but to do our best to see that the songs are given the respect, understanding and effort they merit.
Jim Carroll
PS I think we must have all fallen asleep in class to miss that aspect of 'tradition' Greg

Subject: RE: So what is 'TRADITIONAL' Folk Music ?
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 Nov 06 - 04:45 AM

the BBC, clearly is ignorant.
Will S lakeman put this song down as trad and waive his royalties, When he records it.M Hrding as a writer himself,should know better,and as for the BBC I presume they will not be paying Lakeman his songwriting royalties,but only for his arrangement.

Subject: RE: So what is 'TRADITIONAL' Folk Music ?
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Nov 06 - 05:29 AM

The alleged inaccuracies regarding Seth Lakemans' nomination belongs on another thread, surely?

Haddaway and Shite - Copyright solicitors to the stars.