BS: Why are they leaving the UK?

Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 31 Aug 07 - 08:07 AM

Poll and Council Taxes are regressive and inequitable. Local taxes should be collected by a local income tax. The more you have, the more you pay.

But Teribus and his rich mates wouldn't like that, because they'd have to pay more than the poor. Unless they could find a way of wriggling out of paying their fair whack, the way they do with most other taxes.

Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: Folkiedave
Date: 31 Aug 07 - 11:02 AM

I agree that local income tax would be a good idea BUT as you correctly say the rich avoid most taxes - so that would be just another one.

Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: folk1e
Date: 31 Aug 07 - 12:40 PM

Most people would agree that those who have most should pay most! (in tax terms)
As long as that does not include them.
We then spend forever arguing the toss over which system is "best" whilst the normal guy in the street gets shafted a bit more!
I bet you could apply the above to most 1st world countries.

Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: Teribus
Date: 01 Sep 07 - 04:18 AM

"It would certainly prevent anomalies like mine where 2 people on limited incomes [pension/benefits] pay the same amount of council tax as the people down the road a wee bit who have 3 wage earners in their house." - Giok

"There will always be anomalies like that John. But you make the assumption that people paid the poll tax. Large numbers of people avoided it." - Folkiedave

With an ever aging population, Folkiedave, it was amazing how many times such "anomalies" came into play. For the rest the same applies to Council Tax, the same would apply to "Local Income tax".

On energy the sooner the UK bites the bullet and goes nuclear, the same way as France, we are always going to be on a hiding to nothing

Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: Folkiedave
Date: 01 Sep 07 - 04:51 AM

The anomaly of the Poll Tax was that a millionaire paid the same as a low paid worker. If you believe that people should pay taxes according to their income then the Poll Tax was grossly unfair.

The fact is that a tax on property is the one tax the rich cannot avoid - though its impact upon them is limited.

Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: Stu
Date: 01 Sep 07 - 05:43 AM

"Poll and Council Taxes are regressive and inequitable. Local taxes should be collected by a local income tax. The more you have, the more you pay."

This would work provided the politicians of every side had the balls to actually make their rich supporters pay - this is the real fly in the ointment.

During the campaign of civil disobedience I and several people I know refused to pay the poll tax. I had hours of fun arguing and hassling the local council's financial department as I avoided being sent to court (successfully as it turned out).

However, one of the lads I knew who was a student with a part-time job had been told he had to pay (even though he should have been exempt) was sent to court and had decided to defend himself. He wrote an excellent statment to read out in court, swotted up on the procedures to make sure he was able to speak to the court and off he went. When we saw him in the pub later, he was crestfallen. He had been told, contrary to law he wouldn't be given his allotted time to speak and his case was essentially decided before he even set foot in the courthouse. We all knew we'd have to pay - the proles always do - but at least we thought we could make our point peacefully before the powers that be.

Interestingly enough, I knew the JP who tried this chap - he worked for a large company nearby and he was a client of the firm where I worked, a well-off businessman. I'd had business dealings with him and asked him about the case - why weren't the courts hearing the cases fairly? is't this a travesty of justice if a citizen couldn't defend himself in a court of law? His reply was that he couldn't give a shit about anyone who came in front of him in a poll tax case, he couldn't care less about their rights in the courthouse and if they came before him they would be convicted regardless. I later discovered the same JP was also producing hard-core pornography locally - hiring the models, going to the shoots, getting the printing done - the works.

Sordid little people, enforcing the vicious policies of politicians who held a large proportion of the people in this country in utter contempt simply because they didn't have enough money - this is the truth of the poll tax, and the best thing to come out of the whole sorry mess was the riots, which certainly put a rocket up the arse of Thatcher and her cronies.

Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 01 Sep 07 - 06:12 AM

State funding of political parties would remove the need to lick rich arses in order to get re-elected. Maybe if that happened then we would see courageous rather then cowardly politics.
Giok

Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 01 Sep 07 - 12:20 PM

Immigration from the UK to Australia has trebled in the last 4 years I just heard on radio 4.

Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: Teribus
Date: 01 Sep 07 - 06:21 PM

"During the campaign of civil disobedience I and several people I know refused to pay the poll tax." - Stigweard

OK Stig, now how would you regard it if others all of a sudden in their own "campaign of civil disobedience" decided which taxes they would pay and which taxes they would not - would you, by your own previously set precedent support them at the cost of your own dimished services, or would you condemn them as parasites.

The unbound hypocracy of the left never ceases to amaze me.

Folkiedave in your analogy you forget to mention that in addition to the Poll Tax the millionaire you speak of would also pay a damn sight more in income tax than the low paid worker. You also omit the fact that what Poll Tax went towards was probably of far greater benefit to the low paid worker than ever it was to the millionaire.

The tenets of the left:

It is always somebody else's fault.

Somebody else should always pay.

Unfortunately real life is not like that, learn to live with that fact and get on with it.

Emigration to Australia trebled in the last four years, I'm not surprised, but it won't be the likes of Sigweard, Backwoodsman or Folkiedave that have gone. There is no soft option in uprooting yourself and transplanting yourself and your future in a foreign land - you've got to work for whatever you wish for, nobody is going to hand it to you on a platter - a concept the likes of Stigweard, Folkiedave and Backwoodsman just cannot seem to grasp, they want some rich "bastard" to come along and provide it for them.

Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: vectis
Date: 01 Sep 07 - 06:36 PM

My youngest has just gone to the antipodes. Fed up to the back teeth with being p####d about by the NHS he has taken his highly specialised skills elsewhere.
Now he has a decent wage, far less petty regulation and interference, better prospects of advancement and a much better lifestyle for an outdoor activities & extreme sports lover.
His father and I are thinking of joining him for the same reasons (except I'm in education rather than health).

Over taxation, lack of real opportunity, over regulation, the strenuous application of silly rules and regulations, paperwork: paperwork: paperwork, crime and the erosion of ancient freedoms all make this country less and less desireable.
I would sooooo miss the folk though...

Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 01 Sep 07 - 07:58 PM

teribus - "The unbound hypocracy of the left never ceases to amaze me."

Yes, well, it is the habit of people on both the Left and the Right to be constantly amazed at the others' hypocrisy, while of course completely unaware of their own. ;-) Hypocrisy has never been confined to only one side of any great political divide, and it probably never shall be.

Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: folk1e
Date: 02 Sep 07 - 07:54 AM

I'll second that one Little Hawk!
Just because someone is a millionaire does NOT mean they pay more tax .... they should do, but we have a system where the "rich" can afford accountants who know the tax loopholes. Having said that the ballance of probabillity is that he does pay more.
It's my fence and I'll sit on it if I want to!

Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 02 Sep 07 - 09:55 AM

"Having said that the ballance of probabillity is that he does pay more."

Probably, but it's usually proportionately less than your average Joe. That's what gives me the shits.

Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: Folkiedave
Date: 02 Sep 07 - 10:38 AM

Folkiedave in your analogy you forget to mention that in addition to the Poll Tax the millionaire you speak of would also pay a damn sight more in income tax than the low paid worker. You also omit the fact that what Poll Tax went towards was probably of far greater benefit to the low paid worker than ever it was to the millionaire.

That is probably the most breathtaking piece of unbridled nonsense I have read in a long time.

As a percentage of income most millionaires pay less tax than the low paid worker. Let me quote an example or two. The Vestey Family who owned a huge slice of Britain's meat industry from the farms and processing plants in Argentina - through their refrigerated ships that brought the meat to Britain through to the butcher's shops that sold the meat NEVER PAID A PENNY in income tax until 1991 - through exploitation of tax loopholes not available to low-paid workers whose income is taxed at source. Their chain of butchers's shops paid £10.00 (yes that is ten pounds) on profits of £2.3 million in 1978.

One of the richest people in the UK is Sir Philp Green. The BBC's Money Programme calculated that Green and his family had 'saved themselves' £285m from their £1.2bn salary by living for a part of the year in Monaco, whose residents don't pay income tax.

They also made money by stealing land from Australian aborigines but that's another story.

Now tell me how a low-paid worker can avoid tax like that? I don't know of any Teribus but then I don't live in the cloud-cuckoo land that you do.

All local income tax mainly goes to paying wages, salaries of teachers and other local government workers. As for benefiting the low paid - in fact the money local government spends on for example cultural activities is mainly enjoyed by high income families - the people who can afford to go to heavily subsidised classical music concerts, local theatres and the like.

Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: Folkiedave
Date: 02 Sep 07 - 10:42 AM

That's the Vestey brothers made money stealing land - not Sir Philip Green.

Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: Teribus
Date: 02 Sep 07 - 09:01 PM

OK for a start you pay what you have to pay. Now if everybody did exactly that and the thousands of sterling working class souls did not defraud the benefits sytems all would be well. Now all you valiant left-wingers out there, if you would just acknowledge that all would be well. Unfortunately you don't you will always find ample excuses for one and find only utter condemnation for the other.

Now let's get this straight, the Vestey family's chain of butcher shops "paid £10.00 (yes that is ten pounds) on profits of £2.3 million in 1978." Sorry Folkiedave I don't believe you - best you come up with some very hard evidence to support your statement.

Now just to hammer logic a bit if a tax loophole exists it exists for the rich and poor alike - True? It either exists in law or it does not, and as such is available to the rich and poor alike.

To examine some of your other statements:

"The Vestey Family who owned a huge slice of Britain's meat industry from the farms and processing plants in Argentina"

If it is located in Agentina, it is not really "Britain's" meat industry is it Folkiedave? And that being the case why should it be subject to British tax? Please explain? You obviously seem to think that it should. It would be interesting to hear your views on this because it doesn't and you damn well know that it doesn't.

"through their refrigerated ships that brought the meat to Britain"

Now Folkiedave these ships, are they owned by the Vestey family? Are they flagged under the "Red Ensign"? If the answer to either question Folkiedave is No then the profits made are not liable to UK Tax - True?

Now let's see
"Their chain of butchers's shops paid £10.00 (yes that is ten pounds) on profits of £2.3 million in 1978."

We are talking almost thirty years ago, during the term of a properly constituted Labour Government as recognised as being such by the looney-left i.e yourself, Stigweard and Backwoodsman. Now this £2.3 million, was that turn-over? pre-tax profit? or post tax profit? From your post it would seem to indicate pre-tax profit, at a time when corporation tax stood at what level? 50%? And under the watchful eye of a Labour government they paid only £10? Now if that were the case, and I don't believe it for one second, who exactly is at fault here Folkiedave, the Vestey Family for using the legal means at their disposal or the Labour Government for failing to collect whatever tax is due. In 1978 compare what Tax should have been collected against what actually was and I believe that you will find that the Vesteys were not those who defrauded the British Exchequer the most.

Hey Folkiedave start dealing with those troublesome facts, stop peddling the usual left-wing propaganda. I remember when you trotted out the so called fact that Rumsfeld went to Baghdad to sell arms and I proved quirte conclusively that he did not. Now if I explode this latest left wing myth of yours you will:

1) Have the honesty to admit it

2) Refrain from posting such complete and utter crap on this forum ever again.

Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 02 Sep 07 - 09:53 PM

We all seem to be in aggreement on this thread...it is ALL about TAXES

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

It will be a lovely day when we have a view of prince Herbert shovelling the streets before the common man.

Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: Stu
Date: 03 Sep 07 - 04:45 AM

"OK Stig, now how would you regard it if others all of a sudden in their own "campaign of civil disobedience" decided which taxes they would pay and which taxes they would not - would you, by your own previously set precedent support them at the cost of your own dimished services, or would you condemn them as parasites.

The unbound hypocracy (sic) of the left never ceases to amaze me."

As stated above they do - we all know many of the rich are tax-dodgers and don't pay their fair share to society (benefit fraud - despicable though it is - is not what we are talking about here). They are of course happy to receive the benefits of the society they make so much money out of.

But you're getting confused Teribus, and you need to understand intent is an important factor here. It was never my intention to defraud or decide not to pay the poll tax , I knew eventually I would have to. My intent was to register my objection to an unjust tax which favoured rich people in big houses, and to make collection of that tax as difficult as possible for the government.

The wealthy that take advantages of loopholes not available to those less well off deliberately intend to withold money for their own personal game and to increase the tax burden on the rest of us - including you. Their motivation is completely different. The fact these loopholes are left in place by a so-called socialist government is pretty galling, but we all know that most of our politicians are arse-licking the wealthy - it's one of the reasons politics has become so despised by the public.

As I have said, I own my own small business and I pay large amounts of tax, especially when buying new equipment. I don't dodge my tax burden because as a member of the loony left (cheers - one of the best compliments you could have given me) I actually believe I have a responsibility to society to pay my share when I earn it.

The rancorous nature and corrupt moral integrity of the right wing never cease to amaze me.

Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: Folkiedave
Date: 03 Sep 07 - 04:47 AM

Now just to hammer logic a bit if a tax loophole exists it exists for the rich and poor alike - True?

What a naive and simplistic view of life you have Teribus.

As carefully explained to you (but clearly not carefully enough) they are not available to rich and poor alike. So the answer to that is - not true.

Let me try and get that through to you again in the hopes that this time around you understand it.

If you are taxed at source by your employer as the lower paid tend to be, then you are unable to avoid tax. The rich almost invariably have income that is not taxed at source and so they can avoid tax. Geddit?

As far the Vestey Empire is concerned - it was a British company whose profits were remitted to the UK. Had the profits stayed in Argentina they may have been taxed on them - but they didn't, they sent them back here because they weren't paying any tax here - remember?

The only advantage the Argentinians got from it was paid (and taxed probably) employment. The ships were flagged UK - Liverpool as I remember. They didn't have to flag them in low tax, low safety countries - they weren't paying tax in the UK - remember?

They spent some of their untaxed profits on a £15 million pile called Stowell Park in Gloucestershire. Do you think they did that so they didn't live in the UK? Do you believe people who live in the UK should pay tax in the UK on their income? And if not would you tell me how I can avoid doing it?

Where money is made in most irrelevant in most tax regimes. Rich people just declare they live in another country - where the tax regime is lowest - like Philip Green and a host of other city financiers do - they live in Monaco. Again that option is not available to the low-paid. But you clearly think it is, since you believe tax aviodance is something both the rich and poor can do!!

It isn't a case of failing to collect tax that is due - it is clever accountants who spend their life dreaming up schemes for the rich to avoid tax.

As for the source of my quote I am fed up of doing your research for you - go seek it out yourself. You might learn something to avoid the nonsense you spout whilst doing so.

As for posting crap do you sincerely believe that the rich don't spend time and money trying to avoid tax via routes not available to the low-paid? So who do you think puts the billions into off-shore accounts? The low-paid?

Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: GUEST,Hotspur
Date: 03 Sep 07 - 08:22 AM

My father has just been denied medication for his cancer due to the high cost of the drug. His G.P. told him our local health authority simply hasn't the money to pay for it. We lost our local hospital accident and emergency department last year due to cutbacks in the budget.

Most of the clothing manufacturers in this area have closed down due to cheap foreign imports. Unemployment figures in the area are at the same level they were in 1978.


Our government gave several million pounds of tax payers money to the "under developed" countries who are producing the cheaper imported clothing which closed down our industry.

The war in Iraq has already cost several billion pounds, on Friday the UK government gave an undertaking to provide 700 million pounds to a regeneration programme over the next two years in Afghanistan.


You ask why are people opting to leave the UK ?

Maybe it's because many like myself feel like second class citizens under a government that should realise charity should begin at home.

Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: Teribus
Date: 03 Sep 07 - 05:44 PM

Folkiedave, it doesn't matter a damn if tax is deducted at source or not, the same means of mitigating the amount you pay in tax is available to all.

Been a long time since I looked into it but you can have up to seventeen and a quarter per cent of your "net relevant income" (i.e your gross earned pay) tax free, but you have to put that into a pension, the money is spent, but it is spent to your longterm advantage and interest. Now having reduced your taxable income by anything up to 17% many would find that that drops their overall tax burden quite considerably, you do of course have to submit a tax return form and claim your pre-paid tax back.

I can never remember which is illegal and which isn't tax avoidance I believe is legal, whereas tax evasion is not. A good accountant will give excellent advice, his fee is automatically tax deductable and he/she can save anybody hundreds if not thousands in tax - all perfectly aboveboard and legal and available to all.

The Vestey's by the way have all their financial dealings done through Monaco, not the UK and have done so for a great number of years. It's the one big flaw when it comes to the hard-over leftists yelling tax the rich. Trudeau in Canada once put it rather well, he asked, "If you are a multi-millionare and you can live in Canada and pay 15% tax or live in the USA and pay 20%, where do you live?" The answer he got back was Canada. "OK, so we tax the rich, you're the same multi-millionaire and you can now live in Canada and pay 25% tax or live in the USA and pay 20% where do you live?" The answer he got back was the USA. "So by taxing the rich as the left advocates, those with the money you want to tax move and although you've increased the rate of tax your income goes down because you end up collecting less."

Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Sep 07 - 06:00 PM

I think the distinction between tax evasion and tax avoidance should be that anything you do primarily to avoid paying tax, but wouldn't otherwise do, counts as tax evasion. (Leaving aside charity giving.)

Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: Folkiedave
Date: 03 Sep 07 - 07:43 PM

Folkiedave, it doesn't matter a damn if tax is deducted at source or not, the same means of mitigating the amount you pay in tax is available to all.

I have tried explaining this to you twice and I am happy to try again. Words of one syllable if you like. That's probably too many syllables for you even then - but never mind I'll try.

If your income is taxed at source you have no way of avoiding tax. NO WAY. Understand that Teribus?

If your income is not taxed at source there are numerous ways of avoiding tax. NUMEROUS WAYS. Understand that Teribus?

Most low paid people are taxed at source - most rich people are not.

Since you have difficulty understanding the difference between tax avoidance and tax evasion - I can never remember which is illegal and which isn't - do you not think it is best to stop spouting bollocks about a subject of which you seem to have little understanding of even the simplest of concepts?

The Vestey's by the way have all their financial dealings done through Monaco

That'll be Monaco where all income is tax free? Tell me Teribus is your income paid via Monaco? And if not why not? After all income in Monaco is tax-free and these tax avoidance schemes apply to everyone equally, so why don't you take advantage of it?

Simple question Teribus - have you ever paid tax in the UK (since you seem to be a UK citizen) and if you have, why did you not take advantage of the fact that Monaco as a place where you could have received your income, since as you say it is available to all?

Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: Richard Atkins
Date: 03 Sep 07 - 09:08 PM

Reading todays Telegraph.
Britons who retire early in France lose free health care.
Migrants here free health care for all ?

Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: Teribus
Date: 04 Sep 07 - 01:33 AM

Explained in terms as simple as possible Folkiedave if you are taxed at source you can still use ways of reducing the amount of tax you have to pay, all you have to do is claim it back. Now what is it about that, that you a former university lecturer, cannot grasp.

Yes paid tax in the UK for years, Folkiedave, in all probability a damn sight more than you. I also used the services of an accountant to make sure that I paid only what I had to. Many working in the same industry as myself, while not going to Monaco did go to live in France or elswhere abroad. In the former if you worked outside metropolitan France for more than six months of the year you did not pay state taxes, you only had to pay the local tax for the area you lived in.

As for spouting bollocks:
The definition:
"Tax avoidance is the legal utilization of the tax regime to one's own advantage, in order to reduce the amount of tax that is payable by means that are within the law. By contrast tax evasion is the general term for efforts by individuals, firms, trusts, and other entities to evade taxes by illegal means."

So what I said originally - "I can never remember which is illegal and which isn't tax avoidance I believe is legal, whereas tax evasion is not." - would appear to have been right on the button and not bollocks at all Folkiedave.

Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 04 Sep 07 - 02:18 AM

Good information thas has proved true in my expereinces this summer.

Brit ex-pats go to France (if they work it is a hobby under-table) they swear by the quality of their French health care.

USers DO go to Canada

Within the states Nevada and the Dakotas are considered good places.....a brief summer trip and you are thousands richers.

There are multiple webpages explaining the processs....you DO NOT need to go to Jersey to escape.

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: Folkiedave
Date: 04 Sep 07 - 05:34 AM

Yes paid tax in the UK for years, Folkiedave, in all probability a damn sight more than you. I also used the services of an accountant to make sure that I paid only what I had to.

In that case you clearly paid (as you say) a lot of tax.

But millionaires like the Vestey's didn't pay any at all and their scheme was only closed down in 1991. Millionaires like Philip Green don't pay any tax at all.

So I can't understand why you paid any tax - let alone a damn sight more than me, unless you really wanted to support the low-paid and the benefit claimants out of the goodness of your heart. On the other hand, perhaps you needed a better accountant.

Tell me why you paid any tax Teribus - these schemes are available to all - or were they not available to you for some reason, or was your accountant not up to speed?

"Tax avoidance is the legal utilization of the tax regime to one's own advantage, in order to reduce the amount of tax that is payable by means that are within the law. By contrast tax evasion is the general term for efforts by individuals, firms, trusts, and other entities to evade taxes by illegal means."

There you are you see - you can look things up when you want to. Now off you go and find out how Dewhirst's only paid £10.00 tax on profits of £2.3 million in 1978.

As for the quote of course by using the internet when you don't really understand what you are talking about, you only get half the story.

You see accountants and tax solicitors spend time DEVISING SCHEMES TO AVOID TAX and then testing them out with clients. Your accountant would have told you to put money into your pension scheme (it isn't tax avoidance though it is tax efficient, since generally speaking you pay tax on the pension when it is paid out), or you can claim this or that as a legitimate business expense. Your accountant may have told you to take income in dividend payments rather than salary. A bit of a fiddle since dividends are taxed at a lower rate. But some people spend time inventing tax avoidance schemes. Sometimes these are declared illegal by the Inland Revenue.

There is one scheme devised (NB devised) which involves circular loans to generate tax losses. It was registered in Delaware USA and generated losses via a German Bank. Although it is registered in Delaware and used a German Bank it was to avoid UK tax. See what I mean about devising schemes?

The scheme came to light when a dotcom. millionaire sued them. I won't go into the details but it involved billions of dollars of loans and the millionaire sued for the money it cost him in fees - £2 million incidentally just in fees for advice - when (eventually) it was declared fraudulent. It is still going through a long and complicated procedure of appeal, three to four years later. We, those of us taxed at source, have lost squillions through this tax avoidance scheme declared by the Inland Revenue to be illegal. So we pay extra whilst the tax avoiders screw us. And then we wait for it to go through the courts.

Incidentally you haven't yet told me who you think puts the money into tax-free off-shore accounts. Have you decided yet whether it is the poor or the rich?

Finally - what makes you think I am or have been a university lecturer? I do not remember mentioning it anywhere so I am intrigued. You been using the internet again?

Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 04 Sep 07 - 05:46 AM

Since my aforementioned friends sold up and went to live in France due to an excess of Tony Blair, the husband has been diagnosed with Parkinson's disease. They are full of praise for the French health service, and the quick and easy access given to a specialist in Paris, followed by medication which seems to be controlling his decline, and the associated tremors.
Giok

Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: Teribus
Date: 04 Sep 07 - 11:48 AM

Something to do with residency Folkiedave.

As to the Vestey's and the likes of Phillip Green, whether they should pay UK tax or not depends on where they are domiciled. The Vestey's tax arrangements go way back to the time that Lloyd George was Prime Minister. They may own a mansion and an estate in the UK but if they are not domiciled in the UK for tax purposes then they don't pay anything. Dockyard workers working for the MOD in places like Gibraltar, Malta, Singapore, Hong Kong, etc used to qualify for this after having been out there for about three years. One of the reasons a General Service Commission for one of HM Ships was restricted to two and a half years was so that the crew would not qualify and as such were always subject to full UK tax.

If you can work at it you can attain "Resident but not domiciled" status which lifts you clear off UK Tax. I could never do that as I had a wife and family resident in the UK, therefore I was "Resident and domiciled" in the UK and as such always fully subject to UK tax, but that did not stop me from avoiding as much of it as possible.

Now questions for you Folkiedave:
- Who was it that introduced the 10% Tax band - Labour or Conservative?
- Who was it lowered basic rate tax to 20% in the UK - Labour or Conservative?

I left the UK about ten years ago. Where I live now the tax rates are much higher, but the standard of living and quality of life is correspondingly higher than that of the UK. What gets collected in tax gets spent on all the right things and one can see the improvements in standards and services.

In about a years time I collect my pension from the Royal Navy, few years after that my OAP from the UK Government, a couple after that my pension from the Company I now work for and shortly after that my own personal pension kicks in. As I said Folkiedave I paid only what I had to and I never had any cause for complaint with regard to services and advice rendered by my accountant. There's absolutely nothing stopping anybody from doing the same.

Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: Folkiedave
Date: 04 Sep 07 - 01:58 PM

Now as you freely admit - these tax avoidance schemes are not available to all. Not even to you. Thank you. And Vestey's did live here. The tax avoidance scheme they ran was that good. I gave you the address earlier.

And those sailors you write about who were taxed at source - the UK government made sure they paid full UK tax. See what I mean? At that time they couldn't do it to the Vestey's who were not taxed at source - but my goodness me - become a low-paid sailor and the government makes sure you pay. There is a difference as you now admit. Well done for coming around to my way of thinking.

And you tell me where you live has higher tax rates AND a higher standard of living? Now that seems like an argument for higher taxes Teribus. Welcome to the club.

I am not sure what the point of me answering a question on who introduced what rates of tax when I am sure you know the answer. But whatever you say - how's that?

However there is a point in asking who you think puts money into tax-free off-shore schemes. You seem to avoid this one. Come on Teribus is it the rich putting money into tax free off-shore schemes or is it the poor?

Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 04 Sep 07 - 02:24 PM

The person who defined socialism as "The politics of envy", sure hit the bullseye didn't they?
G.

Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 04 Sep 07 - 03:03 PM

As did the person who defined conservatism as "The politics of the greedy and the selfish".

Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 04 Sep 07 - 04:42 PM

Not forgetting it's politics of the people who make the wealth that the socialists grudge them, though not always. There are always anomalies like Tony Benn and LORD Putnam.
G.

Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: Teribus
Date: 04 Sep 07 - 06:19 PM

Tax avoidance schemes are available to all, all people have to do is avail themselves of them, professor. Those poor sailor's you voice your concern about, could still bring whatever additional allowances into play to reduce their overall tax (Had to claim it back though), their employers just would not let them attain the resident but not domiciled status allowed their civilian counterparts, who did not object one bit - but being of the left you obviously subscribe to there being one law for the goose and another for the gander. I much prefer one law for all applied even-handedly.

But then I suppose you have to remember the governing tenets of the whining left:

It's always somebody else's fault.

It's always somebody else that has to pay.

Where the Vestey's lived doesn't matter a damn if they have qualified for being "resident but not domiciled in the UK" for tax purposes.

"who (do) you think puts money into tax-free off-shore schemes?" Now the correct answer to that would be anybody that wants to I suppose.

Yes higher rates of tax than the UK, at least one of the highest standards of living in the world. Very good arguement for higher taxes Folkiedave, but they go right across the board and everybody pays them. How long you can spend on welfare is strictly limited, if you don't find yourself a job, after that certain period they will put you into one. The whole system is very transparent you can see what they spend the money on, they don't rob pensions as our new PM did when he was Chancellor to finance some daft experimental fad only to lose interest half way through it.

Go back and read down that list of election promises Tony was so keen on harping on about way back in 1997 - How many were kept? Rhetoric question, the answer was none.

It was the Conservatives that lowered the basic rates of tax in the UK - wasn't it Folkiedave? Which put more money into peoples pockets and most chose to spend it, good for business, good for the country. Back to a matter of choice again Folkiedave, it's all a matter of choice.

Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: GUEST,Ed
Date: 04 Sep 07 - 06:32 PM

I'm a 26 year old graduate working for Cambridge Uni, I've put myself in huge debt to get where I am now and will likely never be able to afford a house because of the state of affairs in the UK.

I have lived in the city for 3 years and have seen in this time a dramatic change in what was already a very multi-cultural city. In the last 6 months alone every shop, pub and business I visit, and even my own canteen at work has at least one Polish person working there. Last month I went for a drink on Whitehall and the situation was the same, last weekend I went on a friends stag do in Dorset, again, the same... My friends father has been laid off from his job as a lorry driver to make way for a 'cheaper' Polish lorry' driver. Builders are sacked on Friday only to be replaced on Monday by 'migrant workers', who being 'self employed' do not have to register in the same was as normal workers. Does any of this make sense?

Is it not the case that the huge numbers of migrants that do not register i.e. the 'self employed' builders etc are only offset partially by the hundreds of thousands of people like myself who have just had enough and have emigrated?

Also the economic argument for mass immigration is completely flawed, either the immigrants send money home, thus depriving the UK of income and removing money from the system (which I don't imagine is a good thing) or they bring their families with them thus causing a massive burden on the NHS, housing, schools and councils. Not to mention the large numbers of skilled workers being made redundant or forced into early retirement to make way for cheaper migrant workers. How exactly is this of economic benefit? It is a false economy and a short term and naive policy to make the government look like they are actually managing the economy properly. The bubble will burst soon enough, but it is already too late.

Not to mention the outright lies being pedalled by the Government regarding the numbers of migrants. The overall population increase is only being offset by the hundreds of thousands of Brits moving abroad because they can no longer stand living in a Britain so chronically mismanaged. I find myself feeling more this way every day. This Governments immigration policy (if indeed it is even a policy) is terrible. I love this country and hate any suggestion that a person complaining about the undoubted immigration problem is automatically some kind of Nazi.
But I can't help but thinking that the UK is truly doomed. I admire those in Canada and NZ where they have a sensible approach to immigration.

Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: Folkiedave
Date: 04 Sep 07 - 06:56 PM

Teribus - Where the Vestey's lived doesn't matter a damn if they have qualified for being "resident but not domiciled in the UK" for tax purposes.

They lived in this country - they were not "resident but not domiciled" for tax purposes. They avoided tax by other means. I have explained this to you more than once.

Now the correct answer to that would be anybody that wants to I suppose

Well Teribus you suppose wrongly. The people who put money into tax- free off-shore schemes are the rich. They can afford it. You cannot just open up an off-shore account you need a certain amount of capital. The rich avoid paying tax that way. Thus the rest of us - taxed at source - have to pay more tax and support the rich in their tax-avoiding habits.

Now apparently the country you now live in has a higher standard of living, and higher taxes and everyone pays them.

Good.

Kindly explain why that would not work in the UK? Because not everyone pays tax here as you freely admit. Now I think it would be a better country if they did. Clearly you agree.

Welcome to the left-wing Teribus. And goodness me you were easily converted once you left the UK weren't you!!

Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: Stu
Date: 05 Sep 07 - 04:41 AM

"Not forgetting it's politics of the people who make the wealth that the socialists grudge them"

Socialism isn't about envying wealth - it's about justice and equality for all members of society regardless of their circumstances of birth. It's about making sure people are healthy, don't have to live in fear and enjoy their human rights.

As a socialist I would agree some form of meritocracy is desirable - socialism in it's purest form simply won't work these days, but I am in favour of all our major utilities being re-nationalised and the NHS being given absolute priority over the military for state funding.

"I love this country and hate any suggestion that a person complaining about the undoubted immigration problem is automatically some kind of Nazi."

The guest above falls for the old right-wing xenophobes cry against immigrants - "Not to mention the large numbers of skilled workers being made redundant or forced into early retirement to make way for cheaper migrant workers" - they're taking our jobs! These same right-wingers espouse the very capitalist system and economics of the free market that has led to this situation - if it even exists outside of the moral mush that is a Daily Mail hack's brain (or those dullards that believe them).

"The overall population increase is only being offset by the hundreds of thousands of Brits moving abroad because they can no longer stand living in a Britain so chronically mismanaged." He's talking about you Teribus - it's all your fault for doing the rodent thing and effing off to a better life whilst the country is overrun with Poles! Should have put your money where you mouth is and stuck it out with the rest of us.

Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 05 Sep 07 - 05:17 AM

Socialism consists not of bringing everybody UP to the same level, but in bringing everybody DOWN to the same level. Except that is, for Union leaders/General Secretaries driving, or being driven around in their Jaguars!
Giok

Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: Folkiedave
Date: 05 Sep 07 - 07:12 AM

they're taking our jobs!

Often the argument is also that they are over here to enjoy our benefit system, some people can even argue they are taking our jobs and here to enjoy the benefit system in the same breath.

Not all that many years ago it was the Irish who came over to steal our jobs. Of course in Ireland now, it is the other way around in that the flow of immigration tends to be the other way.

And you would be amazed at the number of Brits abroad I have heard saying they left the UK because of immigration!!

Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Sep 07 - 12:26 PM

If tax accountants invent some fancy scheme which turns out to count as tax evasion rather than tax avoidance are they liable to be penalised professionally and legally? I'd have thought this would count as a kind of conspiracy to commit an offence, so far as the law is concerned. And it should be enough to get them struck of professionally.

Some hope.

Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: Folkiedave
Date: 05 Sep 07 - 02:03 PM

I suspect that the answer would be no. When they create a tax avoidance scheme they "sell" it to clients who then use it to claim money. What happens if it goes pear-shaped is that the client sues them as in the instance I quoted earlier.

Incidentally have you noticed the banks have gone on strike?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/6979933.stm

Of course it isn't called that when they do it - but that's what it is. Dodgy dealings in the sub-prime market and the Bank of England looks as if it is bailing them out!

Nice one free market!

Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 05 Sep 07 - 02:05 PM

Do you want a pension when you retire Dave?
Cos if you do, you better hope the stock market doesn't crash.
G.

Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: Folkiedave
Date: 05 Sep 07 - 02:13 PM

Retired already mate. Sorry.

And of course for many public servants the the pension is not paid by the stock market but by current income. Teachers for example - there is no Teachers' Pension Fund invested in the stock market.

And as I remember when the stock market goes wrong it tends to be the workers that suffer - never the bosses.

Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Sep 07 - 04:54 PM

A bit like unsuccessful bank robbers suing the guy who drew up the plan that went pear-shaped.

Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 05 Sep 07 - 04:57 PM

So those rich leeches are paying your pension?

Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: Folkiedave
Date: 05 Sep 07 - 06:26 PM

Which rich leeches Giok?

As teachers pay into their pension schemes the government take it in on the one hand and pay it out to retired teachers with the other. Since generally speaking there are more of the former (payers) than the latter (retired) they keep the difference.

Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 06 Sep 07 - 04:01 AM

That's like believing in fairies, or that they spend all the monies taken in VED are spend on maintaining and building the roads!
G

Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: Teribus
Date: 06 Sep 07 - 11:47 AM

Oh no Giok - Folkiedave is quite right about his pension fund not relying on investments - Teachers - Public Servants - The major contributor to their Pension Fund is the Government (Taxpayers Money) time, after time, after time - Indexed linked above the rate of inflation (Taxpayers Money) - Pension, or more correctly benefits, continues to be paid long after death to dependents (Taxpayers Money). The Government commitment to this lot, means that the rest lost out. When Gordon Brown raided the National pension funds, this sacred cow was left to continue grazing. Now what was that again about leeches.

Definitions:
1 archaic : PHYSICIAN, SURGEON
2 [from its former use by physicians for bleeding patients] : any of numerous carnivorous or bloodsucking usually freshwater annelid worms (class Hirudinea) that have typically a flattened lanceolate segmented body with a sucker at each end
3 : a hanger-on who seeks advantage or gain
synonym see PARASITE

So typical of the Left, now explain to us Folkiedave why all pensions aren't similarly index linked. Or is it the old "Animal Farm" scenario again, all animals are equal but some are more equal than others, isn't Socialism great.

Your pension Folkiedave is a classic example of what Stigweard came out with - "Socialism isn't about envying wealth - it's about justice and equality for all members of society regardless of their circumstances of birth." (but not job it would seem)

Another Stigweard classic:
"Socialism isn't about envying wealth"

Oh No!!

"He's talking about you Teribus - it's all your fault for doing the rodent thing and effing off to a better life whilst the country is overrun with Poles! Should have put your money where you mouth is and stuck it out with the rest of us."

Good heavens, the very thought of it! The unmitigated gall of it! People "effing off to a better life". How dare they! Those "effing" Pilgrim Fathers have got one hell of alot to answer for. Not the politics of envy, eh Stigweard?

Another little secret for Folkiedave, Stigweard and Backwoodsman - the country by and large has been mismanaged for centuries to some degree or other, but has always managed to survive. It has only been "chronically mismanaged" in recent times. Margaret Thatcher arrested the fall (as admitted very recently by the current Labour Prime Minister). The "chronic mismanagement creeps in when things are driven by political dogma and idealism instead of pragmatism and leadership.

By the bye I don't recall anyone complaining about the country being overrun by Poles in 1940. In those days without the Poles, Czechs, etc - we'd have lost The Battle of Britain.

Country overrun with Poles indeed - the only poles that have overrun the country are telegraph poles. You all wanted the United States of Europe well you've got it, live with it.

Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: Folkiedave
Date: 06 Sep 07 - 12:28 PM

First of all Teribus - if you paid into a pension then it was funded in part by the tax payer - in the form of relief though I suspect you wouldn't want that mentioned. Secondly Indexed linked above the rate of inflation if only Teribus if only.

And the good pensions public servants get - and ex-forces people too of course - is the first thing brought up whenever a decent pay rise is mentioned and the pay rise has been cut as a matter of course.

I certainly have no problems with people leaving the UK for a better life. Or people leaving Poland for a better life. All countries are mis-managed to some degree. But the idea that destroying large parts of British industry and (for example)its apprenticeship system, and then using the oil revenue to pay for it,(instead of investing that oil revenue in replacement industry) was a good one, has come home to roost in the form of social conflagration. So the tax-payer pays for that in the form of disaffected youth, poor schooling and some increased crime and thus an increased prison population. You and me Teribus. I am not happy about that. Are you?

As for a change from Thatcher through Major to Blair, never mind what country are you in, what planet are you on?

Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 06 Sep 07 - 12:37 PM

Teribus - "The chronic mismanagement creeps in when things are driven by political dogma and idealism".

You're talking about Thatcher there.

Also I'm PM'ing you about your cheap 'Poles' jibe.