melodeon tuning

Subject: melodeon tuning
From: GUEST,stevethesqueeze
Date: 09 Oct 07 - 08:29 AM

It struck me today that it seems odd that on a DG melodeon we have the bass and chords available to play B major. I say this as most often I find B minor comes up on written music. I went through lots of tunes at the weekend just looking and It seems to me that B minor would be a better option as it turns up much more frequently. Has anyone else found this? stevethesqueeze

Subject: RE: melodeon tuning
From: greg stephens
Date: 09 Oct 07 - 08:39 AM

The Bmajor chord is to go with tunes in Eminor, which often need a Bmajor, though not so much in English or Irish trad tunes, which tend more to use Em and D for harmonies in Eminor. But the melodeon wasn't just designed for those runes: Euro tunes, and popular minor key tunes, are more likely to use a Bmajor. Where you really feel you need a Bminor chord, just play the B bass note with the left hand and bother with the chord button. That should do the trick.

Subject: RE: melodeon tuning
From: GUEST,george garside
Date: 09 Oct 07 - 08:39 AM

one way is to have the bass 'thirds' removed   (or taped over) so the B is ok for either major or minor - on some boxes it also has the advantage of making the bass less strident. boxes with a bass stop have the facility to remove thirds at will.

george

Subject: RE: melodeon tuning
From: GUEST,martin ellison
Date: 09 Oct 07 - 09:39 AM

I find that Bmin is far, far more useful than Bmaj - all my D/Gs have Bmin. It's brilliant for a passing chord in both G and D and, as such, is used far more than a Bmaj is needed. As Greg says (but the other way around) if you need Bmaj, just play the B bass note.
Also useful for a few tunes in B minor - much easier to play on a D/G than B major.
I'm more interested in making the home keys of the melodeon more interesting than attempting to play in keys which lose the inherent logic of the fingering - not saying it can't or shouldn't be done, just that I don't really do it.
Use that Bmin to colour your tunes!
Martin

Subject: RE: melodeon tuning
From: Peace
Date: 09 Oct 07 - 09:44 AM

"melodeon tuning"

I think it's a great idea.

Subject: RE: melodeon tuning
From: GUEST, george garside
Date: 09 Oct 07 - 10:04 AM

in reply to 'peace' ?on or off
ah! but unlike those playing stringy things we melodeon players don't bore the audience to death farting about tuning the thing every time we pick it up.!

Says he ducking swiftly to avoid the misiles of assorted stringy players!

george

Subject: RE: melodeon tuning
From: Peace
Date: 09 Oct 07 - 10:38 AM

LOL. Good riposte, George.

I recall a day with a 12-string guitar--the Twelve from Hell. Almost enough to make a guy take up strangling cats just to hear a different noise.

Subject: RE: melodeon tuning
From: GUEST,Ned at work
Date: 09 Oct 07 - 10:57 AM

As a gurdy player I find the idea of an instrument that stays roughly in tune fascinating....if a little disturbing!

Subject: RE: melodeon tuning
From: Greg B
Date: 09 Oct 07 - 11:08 AM

The Scottish tune 'Jimmy Allen' is in D, but utilizes a Bmaj
chord in passing.

The Morris tune 'Princess Royal' also can make very good use
of a Bmaj when it is played in the key of G, as it usually is.

I particularly appreciate the stop on my Salterelle Nuage which
cuts all of the bass thirds out.

As mentioned above, one strategically placed piece of tape will
silence the 3rd in the Bmaj chord, making it nicely ambiguous.

Subject: RE: melodeon tuning
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Oct 07 - 05:03 PM

Thank you friends. I appreciate the suggestions. I'll try the tape first and maybe get one of my boxes retuned to Bminor.

stevethesqueeze

Subject: RE: melodeon tuning
From: melodeonboy
Date: 09 Oct 07 - 05:18 PM

I wasn't aware until fairly recently that some melodeons were tuned to Bmaj instead of Bmin. I borrowed someone's Hohner and was several bars into Billericay Dickie when it all started to sound a bit strange!

Given that we're talking about a D/G melodeon, and that the relative minors of G and D are Em and Bm, does it not make more sense to have both of those minors? I think I might have difficulty playing a melodeon tuned to Bmaj rather than Bm.

Subject: RE: melodeon tuning
From: treewind
Date: 09 Oct 07 - 05:32 PM

I had a pokerwork (standard Bmaj chord) when I heard Tony Hall using what was obviously a Bminor chord in something, and I liked ther idea so much that I asked for a B minor when I got my Oakwood. I later dicovered this is standard on some makes, in fact I thnk I would have got what I wante dby default anyway. My Saltarelle has B minor, and though I bought it second hand, I'm pretty sure it was like that from new.

One of the silly things about the Bmajor chord in that position is that even if you have a D# accidental (which is part of a B major chord) you can't play the two together because one's suck and the other's blow!

Anahata

Subject: RE: melodeon tuning
From: GUEST,martin ellison
Date: 09 Oct 07 - 05:53 PM

Anahata - a friend once suggested, to overcome the problem of the suck/blow anomaly, I should pull out on the bass hand and push in on the treble. I couldn't break it to him that it would just result in moving from one side of the room to the other in total silence.

When I changed from hohners (Bmaj) to a saltarelle (Bmin) I was totally non-plussed and thought there'd been a mistake. Then I finally understood and it opened up so many harmonic doors. I've recently had a hohner pokerwork refurbished and had the Bmin installed (actually it's a C/F box so the chord is Amin, but you know what I mean).
Martin

Subject: RE: melodeon tuning
From: martin ellison
Date: 09 Oct 07 - 06:22 PM

Well what do you know? I've only gone and become a member. Please be gentle with me.

Subject: RE: melodeon tuning
From: 8_Pints
Date: 09 Oct 07 - 08:21 PM

Welcome Martin!

Bob vG

Subject: RE: melodeon tuning
From: Rowan
Date: 09 Oct 07 - 10:03 PM

Civilised people (is there any other sort on Mudcat?) are always gentle with melodeon players.

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: melodeon tuning
From: treewind
Date: 10 Oct 07 - 02:51 AM

Well done! It doesn't hurt...

Anahata

Subject: RE: melodeon tuning
From: Tradsinger
Date: 10 Oct 07 - 07:34 AM

I prefer the Bm to the major - it works well in both G and D. If you're really clever, you can actually play tunes in Bm. Think of a tune like Tripping Upstairs (in D). It really does not work to have a Bmaj chord in the B music. Try this chord sequence for Michael Turner's Waltz: G Bm C G Em Bm C/G D/G    C D Bm Em C G Bm D/G.

Another tip, if you're not taking out the thirds on all the bass chords, is just to take out the 3rd on the A chord. This allows you to play in A minor, using mainly the G row, and to my mind is a much better option than the oft-quoted fudge of playing an A bass against a C chord to give the impression of an A minor.

Enjoy

Tradsinger

Subject: RE: melodeon tuning
From: GUEST,banjoman
Date: 10 Oct 07 - 07:43 AM

Melodeon - tuning - the two just don't fit together. The only way to tune this devilish instrument ( I use the term loosely) is with an axe or a hammer- at least that way you will get a pleasant sound while tuning which is something you will never get from this instrument otherwise. Before anyone makes remarks about banjos and tuning, I assure you that the ones I make stay in tune.
The melodeon is the last resort of the musically incompetent

Subject: RE: melodeon tuning
From: Tradsinger
Date: 10 Oct 07 - 07:55 AM

Yawn.

Subject: RE: melodeon tuning
From: GUEST,george garside
Date: 10 Oct 07 - 08:00 AM

and I thought melodeons & banjo's went quite nicely together - perhaps some players of the latter arn't as inclusive as are their instruments. sad really

george

Subject: RE: melodeon tuning
From: pavane
Date: 11 Oct 07 - 05:24 AM

My program HARMONY does let you explore the possibilities mentioned above, of different scales and fingerings, crossing the rows, and lets you find chords on the keyboard (just enter a tune containing only the notes of the chord).

see my web site

I keep meaning to transcribe some of my own arrangements, but never find time, and am aware that they may not be possible on other people's D-G boxes. For example, my 1979 Hohner Erica does NOT have accidentals at the bass end of the keyboard, I think this was a later innovation. I rely on the bass notes for my Rosebud in June, where I play all the chords on the keyboard, including the Bm.

I arranged "Old Black Joe" from Bucknell Morris so that I could play along with the accordeon, using the same chords, which meant a certain amount of crossing of rows - but it sounds much better like that, in my opinion.

Subject: RE: melodeon tuning
From: Greg B
Date: 11 Oct 07 - 11:39 PM

I was a banjo player from the age of seven, but got tired of all the
derisive jokes, so took up the button box.

Don't welcome Martin excessively, as he's been here for quite
a spell. Which doesn't make him any the less welcome, as he's
kind of got the bloody infernal damned thing figured out.

Mind you, he's no Tony Hall, but Tony's no Martin Ellison,
either. 'Flowers of bloody Edinburgh,' indeed. That's just
a stunt, that is, clickty-clacks and all.

One of these days, before we all die (or are killed), we'll
have to figure out a way to all be met together.

Prior to our tenure in hell, of course. Torturing Leonard
Bloody Bernstein. I propose Maine in May. Just as miserable
as all our climates put together.

Sorry, have to go off and have a Bm, and have me t'urds removed.

Subject: RE: melodeon tuning
From: Mr Happy
Date: 12 Oct 07 - 11:56 AM

'chin switches', mentioned here:http://www.harmoniky.cz/en/renovation



anyone know what they are?

Subject: RE: melodeon tuning
From: Lester
Date: 12 Oct 07 - 12:21 PM

'chin switches'
At a guess it's what I would call a stop (to add/remove voices) which I am told can be operated by your chin not that I have ever managed it?

Subject: RE: melodeon tuning
From: GUEST,george garside
Date: 12 Oct 07 - 01:26 PM

chin switches are fitted to some piano (and continental chromatic) accordions but have never seen one on a melodeon. Top of treble end directly under chin with 'push push' action for both 'on' & 'off' in similar way to slide coupler sometimes built into edge of keyboards.
george

Subject: RE: melodeon tuning
From: Greg B
Date: 12 Oct 07 - 03:50 PM

I have an old Hohner piano accordion where the voice is changed
by a big long bar under the keyboard that you can whack with your
palm. Pretty good arrangement, for a two-voice instrument.

On my Nuage and Tommy, I can operate the stops with
my chin--- at least push them in. I refuse to grab 'em with
my lips to pull 'em out, though.

Subject: RE: melodeon tuning
From: quantock
Date: 13 Oct 07 - 01:03 AM

I retuned the third in the B maj chord to make it a B min on my Hohner Pokerwork about 15 years ago. I love it that way.

I also flipped over the D/E reed plate on the G row so I now have those notes in both bellows directions. It has been a hard slog to relearn tunes with that change, but the effort has been worth it. I can get better sounding chords in so many tunes now. I believe this mod is popular with Dutch players, but it works well for me playing English and American dance tunes.

I will be changing again soon though. I have a new Castagnari Mori 2 1/2 row box on order (Andy Cutting layout). I cant wait for it to arrive.

On a different topic, I just joined the Mudcat group on Facebook. I encourage everyone to jump in too. It's a barrel of laughs and you get to see what folks really look like!

Subject: RE: melodeon tuning
From: Dick The Box
Date: 15 Oct 07 - 06:16 AM

I use my nose to push in the stops on the treble end while playing. However, pulling them out again is much more entertaining, not to mention painful......

On the subject of tuning, on a number of my (DG) boxes I have had the low D on the G row tuned to F natural. This lets me fudge in D minor for French tunes.

Subject: RE: melodeon tuning
From: GUEST,stevethesqueeze
Date: 15 Oct 07 - 01:02 PM

Thank you again my friends for the advice.

I didnt realise the melodeon was the last resort of the musically incompetent as our guest mentions. I thought that remark was unacalled for and upsetting. Things like that put me off mudcat as theres always someone being disrespectfull to someone and I don't like that. I take my music seriously and have been playing and teaching banjo, melodeon and concertina for thirty five years. But what do know

Anyway thanks for the serious contributions. stevethesqueeze

Subject: RE: melodeon tuning
From: tutti flutti
Date: 15 Oct 07 - 01:21 PM

SteveTheSqueeze:

Don't let an ignorant, rude poster put you off. There do seem to be more genuine, nice people posting than awful ones although I do know what you mean about the comment being uncalled for and upsetting.

I love my melodeon and get many hours of pleasure from playing it. I wouldn't call myself musically incompetent either - I have a degree in music.

I also know lots of *very* good musicians (not all classically trained by any means) and know that *they* don't feel that way about the melodeon so I'm going to ignore that stupid post and recommend you to do the same.

Subject: RE: melodeon tuning
From: growler
Date: 15 Oct 07 - 04:23 PM

I play in a band, with 'Melodeon Boy' and although I know nothing about the instrument, it seems, that to be succesful, you must ware a shirt that nobody can look upon, without seriously strong shades

Subject: RE: melodeon tuning
From: GUEST,Green Man
Date: 16 Oct 07 - 08:23 AM

A Banjo player criticising a melodeon player! Hmm its like Americans criticising the use of English like what she is spoke!

Irony has nothing to do with boards..

Subject: RE: melodeon tuning
From: Greg B
Date: 16 Oct 07 - 09:33 AM

Playing as I do both banjo and melodeon (shaddup) they do have
something in common. Both can be a bit of a sledge-hammer where
a screwdriver is called for.

While playing a delicate accompaniment behind a thoughtful ballad
can certainly be done, and to great effect with either instrument,
it isn't the 'default' mode of either instrument and likely isn't
in the skill-set of the relative beginner to accomplish.

Guitar players have a any number of resources and examples to help
them learn to do something besides flail at the thing or play loud
and/or fast. It's less so for banjo players, and very much less so
for box players.

Subject: RE: melodeon tuning
From: Les from Hull
Date: 16 Oct 07 - 11:34 AM

Yes, we've mentioned all this before - it's not so much the instrument as the person playing it. Anyone who derides an instrument, or a whole class of instruments, is just showing their ignorance. But, Stevethesqueeze, you'll notice that it's usually a 'GUEST' making these stupid comments, and I hope that that doesn't put you off the Mudcat.

I suppose most experienced melodeon players know this trick, but you don't have to have the right-hand side stops all the way in (or out). With about one and a third stops operating, I get a nice 'dry' tuning on the treble side. Anyway, that's my contribution to melodeon happiness!

Les

Subject: RE: melodeon tuning
From: GUEST,george garside
Date: 16 Oct 07 - 01:25 PM

Les is quite right about the person rather than the instrument etc. as a teacher of melodeon and accordion (button & piano) I teach new students/players how to play very quietly at a very early stage - that way they can practice without upsetting the neighbours!

I find it much harder 'converting' more experienced players into quiet mode!. My DG tutor book (available as buy now item on ebay -(just put in melodeon) has a section on playing quietly. If anyone is within range of Anglesey, North Wales, I can offer private lessons [e-mail].

To play quietly needs highly developed bellows control, using the wrist rather than the elbow to control the ins & outs.This largely eliminates the heavy tugging & shoving of the bellows that by its very nature reduces all chances of any degree of finesse. ~A fidler does not attempt to saw his instrument inhalf with the bow!!

happy sqeezing everybody
george

Subject: RE: melodeon tuning
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 17 Oct 07 - 02:10 AM

"a friend once suggested, to overcome the problem of the suck/blow anomaly, I should pull out on the bass hand and push in on the treble. I couldn't break it to him that it would just result in moving from one side of the room to the other in total silence."

I've been busy - sorry I didn't catch that one earlier! ROFL... hey, maybe that WAS what he meant...


Taking into account some of the comments made about 'squeezeboxes' of various types, I thought it would be useful for the Technique: Piano Accordion for The Recycled Muso thread to surface again!

Les: "I suppose most experienced melodeon players know this trick, but you don't have to have the right-hand side stops all the way in (or out)." Yeah, been there, said that... :-P

George: "To play quietly needs highly developed bellows control, using the wrist rather than the elbow to control the ins & outs.This largely eliminates the heavy tugging & shoving of the bellows that by its very nature reduces all chances of any degree of finesse"

Well actually that may work fine on small boxes, but if you are going to use big heavy P/A boxes, you still need to use a fair bit of muscle. 'Bellows shake' can be done in several ways, but you still need some strength to shake a big box! BTW, you CAN do 'shake' VERY quietly indeed too! :-)

But I am surprised (as a muso coming to the P/A after other instruments) - because the "Traditional" teaching style books all go about teaching technique 'back-asswards' - if you look at what 'Suzuki' does, you will see what I mean. Yes, it's all very goo to be able to read notes on a scale (I'm talking as someone who did 5/6 grade piano prac & theory!) and play 'om-pah-pah' waltzes on the bass, but bellows control IS what the accordion (or indeed ALL squeezeboxes!) is all about!

Like teaching a car diver how to accelerate and brake, without bothering about that steering wheel thing! :-)

Subject: RE: melodeon tuning
From: GUEST,george garside
Date: 17 Oct 07 - 04:19 AM

"but bellows control IS what the aaccordion (etc) is all about!

Indeed! as I see it the bellows are to the box player what the bow is to the fiddler and should be taught/learned very early on as should a stacato fingering technique.

as to 'fine' bellows control on a big box Sir Jimmy Shand was the master of it on the 117 (yes 117) bass Shand Morino 3row box, using absolutely minimal bellows opening throughout the proceedings. In some ways the smaller the bellows the more movement is required to shift a similar amount of air accross the reeds wherea on a large box a very small amount of bellows movement & pressure will move a lot of air.

My view, for what its worth, is that the more extended the bellows are the harder work it becomes on the arm , neck & shoulder and the more difficult it is to exercise fine control whether this be to add 'shake' or to change note (on diatonics) whilst adding shake at same time.

Subject: RE: melodeon tuning
From: treewind
Date: 17 Oct 07 - 08:36 AM

The staccato fingering technique is something I learned from a good PA player when I was still playing PA myself. It's a popular myth that the in-out action of the melodeon gives the articulation you need. To play musically needs some notes staccato and others legato, and the choice should be made by the player to suit the phrasing of the music, not by the mechanics of the instrument. So first you have to learn to articulate with your fingers sequences of notes that are in the same direction, and conversely to make bellows changes between notes as smooth as possible. Then when you can make it all sound as even as possible you can control the spaces between notes to suit the music, and suddlenly it starts sounding like music instead of like a melodeon.

At risk of public ridicule for merely demonstating that the practice is less successful than the theory, I invite anyone interested to try three of the tracks to be heard on our MySpace page. In the Welsh jigs I'm playing an Oakwood, which is a struggle to play quietly (like driving a Ferrari in a traffic jam, as if I'd know); in "Cuckoo and The Nightingale" and "Sun Assembly" it's a Salterelle with mostly single reeds.

I find bellows control, even on the Saltarelle, something that needs practice. If I don't play it for a few days I have to work at it to get the smoothness back. I think a lot of it's about timing - changing the pressure from push to pull just the right amount of time before you want the sound to change, and synchronising any required RH finger movement. Of course there's a lot of row crossing going on too, and organising the bellows movement to suit the phrasing where possible.

All stuff I learned first in relation to bowing when playing the cello.

Anahata

Subject: RE: melodeon tuning
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Oct 07 - 05:00 AM

"popular myth that the in-out action of the melodeon gives the articulation you need. To play musically needs some notes staccato and others legato, and the choice should be made by the player to suit the phrasing of the music, not by the mechanics of the instrument."

Yes - actually if you have played keyboard before, ESPECIALLY a pipe or other 'organ' rather than a 'piano' it will all be used!

I make the distinction, because the piano is a 'percussion' instrument, same as a harpsichord is a 'pluck' instrument, which still has a percussive type sound. Organs, and other wind instruments, have a totally different feel, and attack on the key movements.

Subject: RE: melodeon tuning
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 18 Oct 07 - 05:12 AM

Oops - lost my cookie!

Subject: RE: melodeon tuning
From: Green Man
Date: 24 Oct 07 - 12:05 PM

Who are these 'Guests' referred to earlier then?

I play the melodeon and the guitar as well as the mandolin and I must say the melodeon is the harder of all of these to play well.

I tried the Banjo some years ago but wasn't willing to commit the time needed to reach what I thought an acceptable standard, again not easy to play well, so I have respect for anyone who plays a musical instrument.

As for the play it with an axe jibe, I can understand your frustration if you are beset by unskilled players however, we all need space to learn and playing with others is the best way to gauge you own abilities.

I always thought that the more expensive melodeons were better because they would burn for longer. :)

Happy days all.