Origins of Samhain

Subject: Origins of Samhain
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 20 Oct 07 - 12:49 PM

It seems reasonable that at the very least vestiges of non-christian beliefs should survive in Europe.

As I understand it the Welsh National Eisteddfod has a collection of beliefs and rituals that are at least partly Victorian in origin.

So what do we genuinely know about the origins of Samhain?

Subject: RE: Origins of Samhain
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 21 Oct 07 - 06:52 PM

??????????????????

Subject: RE: Origins of Samhain
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 21 Oct 07 - 08:13 PM

Sorry, Les.
Are you stating (with that row of question marks) that you don't understand the previous posting?
In which case, what chance have the rest of us?

Subject: RE: Origins of Samhain
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 21 Oct 07 - 08:52 PM

Well, the straight answer to the original question is 'nothing'.

Whether Les is just asking about 'end of summer' traditions in Gaelic-speaking areas, or whether he is using 'Samhain' as a substitute for the English word 'Hallowe'en' in the misleading and anachronistic fashion favoured by modern neo-pagans, I wouldn't know; but the answer would still be 'nothing'.

Subject: RE: Origins of Samhain
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 21 Oct 07 - 09:34 PM

It also seems to me that this time-waster has arisen before in other threads.

Subject: RE: Origins of Samhain
From: Amos
Date: 22 Oct 07 - 12:04 AM

I think it is an ancient word for one of the hierarchical goddesses of the early Rig Gita or one of those primeval Hindu doctrines.


A

Subject: RE: Origins of Samhain
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 22 Oct 07 - 04:00 AM

My request is a genuine request. It came from reading another thread concerning folklore on the Isle of man.

The thread is: Hop Tu Naa.

I think the Isle of Man is an interesting case because it has a distinct language and history that sets it somewhat apart from other parts of these Islands. I asked on that thread about the evidence for some of the statements made but didn't get much further.

One claim was that the Old Manx celebrated the New Year straight after the Harvest rather than at the Winter Solstice and, I think, that this is called Samhain.

So, I suppose the question is how much of this is generally true and how much is .............. probably not.

Subject: RE: Origins of Samhain
From: GUEST,Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Oct 07 - 04:21 AM

All you wanted to know about Samhain, but were afraid to ask - thanks to Dictionary of Celtic Lore, James McKillop (Oxford 1996).
Jim Carroll

Samain, Samhain, Samhuinn (ScG), Sauin (Manx) [cf. Olr. sam, summer; fain, end]. Irish, Scottish Gaelic, and Manx names for the seasonal feast of pre-Christian origin fixed at 1 November on the Gregorian calendar. The most important of the four great calendar feasts of Celtic tradition, in¬cluding, by their old Irish names, *Beltaine (1 May), *Imbolc (1 February), and Lugnasad (Modlr. Lunasa/*Lughnasa, 1 August); its counterparts are in Wales *Hollantide, in Cornwall *Allantide, and in Brittany Kala-Goanv. The antiquity of Samain is attested to by the Coligny Calendar (1st cent, BC) which cites the feast of Samonios. The same source explains that to the ancient Gauls the period of dark precedes the light, supporting the commonly held belief that Samain is the equivalent of New Year's Day. Julius * Caesar (ist cent, BC) reported that the Gaulish *Dis Pater, god of death and winter's cold, was especially worshipped at this time of year. Other * classical commentators observed that *Teutates might be worshipped at this time by having sacrificial victims drowned in vats, whereas sacrifices to *Taranis were burned in wooden vessels. Samain's equivalents on the Christian cal¬endar are All Saints' Day (introduced by Pope Boniface IV in the 7th cent, to supplant the pagan festival of the dead) and Halloween.
By abundant testimony, Samain was the principal calendar feast of early Ireland. Each of the five provinces sent assemblies to *Tara for a *feis held every third year. At *Tlachtga the lighting of the winter fires was a key part of the Samain ceremony. In part Samain ceremonies commemorated the *Dagda's ritual intercourse with three divinities, the *M6rrigan, *Boand, and *Indech's unnamed daughter. Just how much of this remembrance included *fertility rites, or what their nature might be, is not known; but in Irish and Scottish Gaelic oral tradition, Samain time was thought most favourable for a woman to become pregnant. At *Mag Slecht in Co. Cavan, human sacrifices might be offered to *Crom Cruaich, called the 'chief idol of Ireland' by early Christian scribes. Although the full nature of Crom Cruaich is not known, popular writers on early Ireland have taken to calling him Samain, implying that he gave his name to the seasonal feast; although at least one American encyclopaedia repeats this conjecture, it is un¬supported by early Irish texts.
Authors of early texts are careful to point out when important action takes place at Samain. At this time the predatory *Fomorians would exact their tribute of grain, milk, and live children. Each year on this date * Aillen mac Midgna came to burn *Tara until *Fionn mac Cumhaill dispatched him. From *Cruachain in Co. Roscommon came the triple-headed monster *Aillen Trechenn who wreaked havoc on all of Ireland, especially *Emain Macha and Tara, until he was eliminated by *Amairgin (1). *Cuchulainn encountered Other¬worldly damsels at Samain time, and this was also the time *Caer and * Angus 6g flew off in *swan form.
The different celebrations of Samain over the centuries explain some of the traditions still popu¬larly attached to Halloween. Standing between the two halves of the Celtic year, Samain seemed sus¬pended in time, when the borders between the natural and the supernatural dissolve and the spirits from the *Otherworld might move freely into the realm of mortals. Concurrently, humans might perceive more of the realm of the dead at this time, and looked for portents of the future in games. People might choose from small cakes called barmbracks [Ir. bairin breac, speckled loaf, i.e. with currants or raisins] containing a ring or a nut to determine who would be married and who would live singly. Bonfires were built in parts of Ireland and Gaelic Scotland. It. was also a time to relax after the most demanding farm work was done. In counties Waterford and Cork, country lads visited farmers' houses on the night before Samain, oiche shamhna [Samain eve], collecting pence and provisions for the celebrations. In Cork the pro¬cession of young men blowing horns and making other noises was led by someone calling himself the White Mare, wearing white robes and the con¬figuration of a horse's head. On the Isle of Lewis in the Outer Hebrides, though the inhabitants were Protestant, people gathered *ale and other provisions for a mock ceremony, calling Shoney of the sea to enrich their grounds in the coming year. Turnips were hollowed out with candles put inside.

Subject: RE: Origins of Samhain
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Oct 07 - 10:27 AM

"I asked on that thread about the evidence for some of the statements made but didn't get much further."


And I pointed you towards articles on Samhain, including the ever-reliable Wikipedia overview - not sure what else you'd have expected me to do!

These write-ups are based (in some cases!) on learned research, but even the most eminent scholar is only striving to interpret what was written down either later as an attempt to explain surviving tradition or by hostile contemporaries such as Caesar, so everything comes down to us, as it were, through a prism. If anyone had a hotline to 'what we genuinely know about the origins of Samhain', you wouldn't be able to get to them for scholars, neo-pagans and romanticists pumping them for every last detail.

The 'druidism' of the Eisteddfod is from the late 18th century rather than Victorian times, with Iolo Morganwg organising an event on Primrose Hill in London, though it was in Victorian times that the two bodies, the Court of the Bards (Gorsedd y Beirdd) and the organising committee of the Royal National Eisteddfod of Wales joined together to run the annual event. The whole 'druidic' aspect is for spectacle only, nothing to do with history.


Lhiats,

Bobby Bob

Subject: RE: Origins of Samhain
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 22 Oct 07 - 01:09 PM

BB,

"Les, if you look at articles about Samhain you'll find information about views relating to it as the end of summer, end of the year, "Celtic New Year" and the like. If you feel you can trust it, there's a Wikipedia entry for Samhain which contains an overview of it."

Thanks again BB for your information. I think the problem we have in interpreting any information or more usually someones views about recent vestiges of old practices that people will say and repeat all kinds of things with out much evidence. Wickepedia is great fun but not a reliable source, especially in this context.

The idea of the New Year starting after the Harvest seems easier to explore than most ancient stuff.

The other problem is the bluing of possible facts with mythological fiction. The quotes from Jim are a good example. What on earth does it tell us about actual farming communities did before they were christened?

Thanks again

Les

Subject: RE: Origins of Samhain
From: Declan
Date: 22 Oct 07 - 01:54 PM

Haloween is known as Oiche Shamhna (the eve of Samhain) in Irish Gaelic.

The feast had many traditions associated with it, mostly around dressing up and eating and plying games with fruit (it being a harvest festival). Halowe'en night was the Irish bonfire night (as opposed to 5th November in England) and is associated with fires and fireworks (although these are mainly illegal in Ireland). The Month of November is called Samhain in the Gaelic Calendar, which also includes Bealtaine (May)and Lunasa (August).

By the way Samhain is pronounced in gaelic roughly as Sow (as in Pig) In and definitely not Sam Hane.

Subject: RE: Origins of Samhain
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 22 Oct 07 - 02:13 PM

When does the New Year start?

Subject: RE: Origins of Samhain
From: Declan
Date: 22 Oct 07 - 02:50 PM

In modern Ireland the New Year is celebrated as elsewhere on January 1st. I suspect in ancient Ireland it was 10 days earlier at the winter solstice, but I'm no celtic scholar.

Subject: RE: Origins of Samhain
From: Mick Tems
Date: 22 Oct 07 - 03:43 PM

In Wales, "samhain" was called Nos Galan Gaeaf (the eve of the winter kalend) in which a number of customs were observed, including y caseg fedi (the harvest mare), y hwch ddu gwta (the tail-less black sow), y ladi wen (the white lady), coelcerth (jumping over a bonfire) and stwmp naw rhyw (a mash of nine sorts - a concoction of potatoes, turnips, carrots, milk, peas, pepper, salt, parsnips and leeks... it's really tasty!)

As always, the Welsh celebrated Nos Galan Gaeaf by lighting bonfires. In Gower, the country people would ask for soul-cake, which the farmers would give to them:

Souly, souly, Christendom
Every good neighbour, give me some
Give me some and give me none
Give me a penny and I'll be gone
If thou hasn't got a penny, a ha'penny will do
If thou hasn't got a penny, God bless you.

Subject: RE: Origins of Samhain
From: Mick Tems
Date: 22 Oct 07 - 03:58 PM

Whoops - let's nail that literal. In the last line, it should not have been "penny", but "ha'penny". The verse should read:

If thou hasn't got a penny, a ha'penny will do
If thou hasn't a got ha'penny, God bless you.

Sorry!

Subject: RE: Origins of Samhain
From: PoppaGator
Date: 22 Oct 07 - 06:06 PM

My paternal grandparents, who both died before I was born, were born and raised in rural County Mayo, Ireland, not emigrating (first to Liverpool and then to New York / New Jersey) until after they had married, in 1912.

The (modernized) version of that "penny/ha'penny" rhyme, as my father remembered from family tradition, went like this:

Christmas is coming
The goose is getting fat
Who'll put a penny in the old man's hat?
If you haven't got a penny
A ha'penny will do
If you haven't got a ha'penny, God Bless You!

In this form, obviously, the little poem is associated with Christmas/Yuletide, not Halloween/All-Saints/All-Souls/Samhain, which comes a bit later in the year.

For Americans and others not in the know: a "ha'penny" is a half-penny, and the pronounciation (as I learned it, anyway) is "hay-penny."

Subject: RE: Origins of Samhain
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 22 Oct 07 - 06:21 PM

Is my case supported or what?

Subject: RE: Origins of Samhain
From: Dave'sWife
Date: 22 Oct 07 - 06:25 PM

Poppagator - what town in mayo county? My grandfather is from there as well and came over with his family in 1916. he got married in 1927 so he'd be a bit younger than your grandfarther but still - depending on the twon, they may have known eachother's families!

Let me say it before anyone else does - please let's not repeat the oft told nonsense about the big bad evil Irish emigrants spreading the heresy of halloween in the united states. Every year the Evangelical Christians have programs that depict the nasty Irish Catholics sneaking paganism into a "God-Fearing Christian Country" (The US) and pass out leaflets that say the same.

The tract I got handed last year showed red-nosed drunken Irish cavorting on halloween and then hypocritically going to mass the next day for for all Saints Day. There is a is a similarly racist depiction of Mexicans celebration the Day of The Dead that gets passed out. I asked the gal who handed me the day of the dead pamphlet if the drunken Irishmen in her other pamphlet were the ones who taught that foul practice to the mexicans and she said "Yes, I think they did!" Sadly, she was quite serious.

Halloween as it is currently practised in the USA is a modern invention and has little to do with Mischief night or "Samhain". I saw a scholar on the History channel making a decent case for the modern halloween having its origins in a reiniterpretation of the holiday that took place after World War II. It wasn't until then that halloween took off as a national holiday in the USA. I would guess that it is the fond memories of baby boomers that has helped halloween approach Christmas in popularity. It is now the number 2 retail holiday in the USA and is closing in on Christmas.

Where I live, in Los Angeles, halloween is a huge event for adults looking for another excuse to socialize but kids don't trick or treat. Day of The Dead celebrations are more the norm.

Subject: RE: Origins of Samhain
From: Declan
Date: 22 Oct 07 - 07:21 PM

As you mention "trick or treating", if you met some Irish Children out collecting on Hallowe'en in recent years they would probably use that particular phrase, and one might be forgiven for thinking the phrase originated here. However although the practice of dressing up in costumes and masks goes back at leat 40 years here in Ireland, and I suspect a lot longer than that, the phrase trick or treat is a US import that goes back no further than the early 80s here. Someone in a recent thread on another forum cited the movie ET as the source, and the timing is about the same.

When we went out collecting our catchphrase was "Help the Halowe'en Party" - tricks never entered into it. When we collected it was mostly fruit and nuts we collected, more recently it seemed to be mostly to do with sweets, but nowadays nothing other than cash seems to be acceptable!. All of the activity was also concentrated on the night of October 31st. Lately the bonfires and fireworks seem to start in Mid September and keep going well into November.

Subject: RE: Origins of Samhain
From: GUEST,Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Oct 07 - 03:33 AM

I get the impression that 'trick or treat' is a relatively recent thing here in Ireland and is an American import.
All Souls Night was still an active custom up to 15-20 years ago, among some older rural people and particularly among Travellers. This was where food and drink (and in some cases cigarettes and newspapers) would be left out for the departed souls.
We were told of this by a Traveller woman , who also told us how she caught one of her children, by then an adult, smoking the cigarettes that had been left out.
When we asked her when the custom had been last practiced, (this was in the 80s) she said, "I'll be putting something out tomorrow night".
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Origins of Samhain
From: GUEST,The black belt caterpillar wrestler
Date: 23 Oct 07 - 07:43 AM

My mother's version was longer:-

Christmas is coming
The goose is getting fat
Please put a penny in the old man's hat?
If you haven't got a penny
A ha'penny will do
If you haven't got a ha'penny
A farthing will do,
If you haven't got a farthing a shoe(sic) will do
If you haven't got a shoe, God Bless You!

My suspicion is that "shoe" was origianlly "sou".
This was from Watchet in Somerset.

Robin Madge

Subject: RE: Origins of Samhain
From: Goose Gander
Date: 23 Oct 07 - 11:19 AM

"The tract I got handed last year showed red-nosed drunken Irish cavorting on halloween and then hypocritically going to mass the next day for for all Saints Day. There is a is a similarly racist depiction of Mexicans celebration the Day of The Dead that gets passed out. I asked the gal who handed me the day of the dead pamphlet if the drunken Irishmen in her other pamphlet were the ones who taught that foul practice to the mexicans and she said "Yes, I think they did!" Sadly, she was quite serious."

I'd like to think that this was an isolated example, but I recently heard a particularly offensive war-mongering radio host put out the slander about wicked, pagan Irish bringing their devil's celebration to these sainted shores. And I've read the same sort of thing in those ubiquitous 'jack chick' tracts that are left around bus stops and other public places.

Subject: RE: Origins of Samhain
From: PoppaGator
Date: 23 Oct 07 - 02:00 PM

I replied last night to Dave's Wife via PM in reard to my relatives in Ireland, but didn't address the issue regarding anti-Irish/anti-Halloween propaganda.

I was surprised to read those comments, because I have never really encounted that particular prejudice. I encounter a fair number of far-right-wing and/or socially-conservative folks in my daily life, but I've never encountered that kind of anti-Irish know-nothingism ~ I thought that had already been relegated to the trash heap of history.

Perhaps it's because New Orleans is such a Catholic city, having been occupied and run by the French and Spanish for centuries before the Louisiana Purchase. This is probably the only US city where the old-money establishment (the folks you read about on the society page) are not predominantly "W.A.S.P.," but rather largely Catholic, along with plenty of "mainstream" Protestants and some Jews. So, in a climate where anti-Catholic attitudes simply cannot exist, you probably don't get the corollary anti-Irish stance, either.

The one family I know that forbade their kids to participate in Halloween, because of the purported "devil worship" and/or "paganism," were in fact Irish Catholics! (Well, half-Irish/half-German.) They belonged to the "charismatic" fringe of the R.C. church, with a lot in common with Pentecostalists and other Fundamentalist Protestants.

Subject: RE: Origins of Samhain
From: Goose Gander
Date: 23 Oct 07 - 02:15 PM

Well, I'm sure these are just vestiges of half-forgotten bigotries, but very strange none the less.

Subject: RE: Origins of Samhain
From: Mick Tems
Date: 24 Oct 07 - 05:23 AM

Among the stranger Welsh practices on Nos Galan Gaeaf (the eve before the start of winter) was at Tenby, Pembrokeshire, was any cross-roads where spirits were supposed to linger. Trefor M Owen, the curator of St Fagans Museum, says in his book, Welsh Folk Customs: "It was at a cross-roads that the custom of "sewing hemp" was carried out by women. Having raised a little of the ground, the women would chant:

Hemp seed I sow, hemp seed I'll mow;
Whoever my true love is to be
Come sow this hemp seed after me.

The shape of the person would appear and rake the hemp seed."

What Owen doesn't divulge is why this hemp seed was expectly to grow after being sown on the eve at the start of winter - a waste of good whacky baccy, indeed. He does say: "This custom was widely thoughout Wales and in other parts of the British Isles; often it took place in a churchyard."

In answer to PoppaGator, the Gower rhyme was said as part of the custom held to observe the eve of winter, not Christmas. The verses:
"If thou hasn't got a penny, a ha'penny will do..." are known across the whole of Wales at Nos Galan Gaeaf (i.e. Gresford and Llanyblodwel in North Wales.) My guess about the popular rhyme "Christmas is coming, the goose is getting fat" is that Christmas (or the winter solstice) was/is such an important festival that this rhyme was lumped together in the Christmas rhymes file. Christmas is coming? You bet it is - and it's not two months away!

Subject: RE: Origins of Samhain
From: Mick Tems
Date: 24 Oct 07 - 06:14 AM

Checking the map, I've just noticed that Llanyblodwel is a mile into Shropshire - the Wales/England border catches you out sometimes! However, Llanyblodwel is the nearest village to Wales in a Welsh Bulge with the market town of Oswestry (Croesoswallt) at its centre. Oswestry is approximately five miles into England but retains its strong Welsh culture. The Welsh Bulge is peppered with placenames like Porth-y-waen, Monfa, Trefonen, Llynclys and Treflach; there are no English names at all. Politically, the Bulge is in England, but culturally it's not.

Subject: RE: Origins of Samhain
From: PoppaGator
Date: 24 Oct 07 - 02:31 PM

Good point, Dr. Price ~ the phrase "Christmas is coming" does not denote Christmas itself, but rather the period before Christmas.

Technically, the "start" of winter doesn't come around until the solstice, 12/21, very nearly Christmas day itself. (Along with many others, I believe that the date arbitrarily chosen for Christmas was actually intended to coincide exactly with the pre-Christian celebration of Yule, or the winter solstice.) The period leading up to this feast ("Advent," in Church terms) is actually "late fall," although it sure feels like winter in northern climes.

In current-day US parlance, we have "The Holidays," which includes not only Christmas and New Years but also, usually, by extension, Thanksgiving (a full month before Christmas, and the start of the dreaded "shopping" period). Of course, commericialism being the way it is, "Christmas shopping" can start as early as Halloween these days!

Subject: RE: Origins of Samhain
From: GUEST,JTT
Date: 24 Oct 07 - 03:43 PM

Trick-or-treat came from the US; in Ireland it was always "Any apples or nuts?"

Anyway, origins? What origins? It was always so.

Subject: RE: Origins of Samhain
From: Mick Tems
Date: 25 Oct 07 - 10:00 AM

Here are some more quotes about strange antics in Wales: "Other Halloween (sic) customs did not involve apples, but the unseen. In the Vale of Glamorgan, at night, when the spirits were roaming the churchyards, one of the braver villagers would put on his coat and vest inside out and recite the Lord's Prayer backwards as he walked around the church a number of times. Then the courageous lad would enter the porch and put his finger through the keyhole of the church door to prevent any spirits from escaping. It was believed that the apparitions of those who would soon die could be spied through the keyhole.

"In other areas of Wales, groups of youths would dress up in women's clothes with the girls in men's clothing. They would wander from house to house after dark, chanting verses and soliciting gifts of fruit or nuts, used to divine one's future. In other, more rural areas, young men used to dress up in sheepskins and old ragged clothes and disguise or blacken their faces. After chanting their weird rhymes, they would then be given gifts of apples or nuts, and sometimes beer. The groups would be known as the gwrachod (hags or witches). The visiting of these groups were always in fun, but were taken seriously as harbingers of good tidings for the forthcoming year and the expulsion of the bad spirits from the household."

Subject: RE: Origins of Samhain
From: Goose Gander
Date: 25 Oct 07 - 11:18 AM

Dr. Price -

This is interesting stuff. I didn't notice what source you were using for your quoted material (?).

Subject: RE: Origins of Samhain
From: Goose Gander
Date: 25 Oct 07 - 11:27 AM

Oh, that must have been Welsh Folk Customs by Owens, I missed that - sorry.

Subject: RE: Origins of Samhain
From: GUEST,Lk
Date: 23 Oct 15 - 07:28 PM

I read a long time ago somewhere that the poem was...

Samhainn is coming, the goose is getting fat. Please do put a penny in the old man's hat. If you haven't got a penny then a ha'penny will do. If you haven't got a ha'penny a loaf of bread will do if you haven't got a loaf then gods bless you!"


I did just find this 1800's version though with different names for the "soul cakes" as in "friendship bread" "fruit bread / cake" :

"A soul! a soul! a soul-cake!
Please good Missis, a soul-cake!
An apple, a pear, a plum, or a cherry,
Any good thing to make us all merry.
One for Peter, two for Paul
Three for Him who made us all.

[Verse 1]
God bless the master of this house,
The misteress also,
And all the little children
That round your table grow.
Likewise young men and maidens,
Your cattle and your store ;
And all that dwells within your gates,
We wish you ten times more.

[Verse 2]
Down into the cellar,
And see what you can find,
If the barrels are not empty,
We hope you will prove kind.
We hope you will prove kind,
With your apples and strong beer,
And we'll come no more a-souling
Till this time next year.

[Verse 3]
The lanes are very dirty,
My shoes are very thin,
I've got a little pocket
To put a penny in.
If you haven't got a penny,
A ha'penny will do ;
If you haven't get a ha'penny,
It's God bless you!"

Subject: RE: Origins of Samhain
From: Paul Burke
Date: 23 Oct 15 - 08:12 PM

The original was:

Sauron is coming, the ghost is getting thin,
Please put a penny in Monty James's tin.

From Akallabêth I think.