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Subject: RE: Rachel Unthank & The Winterset From: Folkiedave Date: 02 Feb 08 - 05:02 PM I have argued long and hard that quality in folk music is most important and that we have put up with "good enough for folk" as Diane Easby characterises it for far too long. Whether I like RUATW is irrelevant to that. I am not a great fan of "Show of Hands" which to some people is real heresy. I quite like RUATW and have done since they were a duo. Rachel and Becky have - as far as I am concerned - been brought up as folk people and are not the result of some marketing guru. I cannot speak for the other two. |
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Subject: RE: Rachel Unthank & The Winterset From: GUEST,Jon Date: 02 Feb 08 - 04:33 PM When? For me, in more naive days. I had even more naive days btw. I used to believe the quality of any product was always the most important factor in success but I was persuaded otherwise. Folk then had to be a sort of "magical exception". I suppose I could liken it to a belief that "folkies" were sort of some special breed of "super nice" people. As it happens, I still retain a fair amount of faith in "folk" and "folkies" but I no longer believe either are exempt from the usual "rules" of the world we live in. To believe otherwise now would seem to be as realistic as a belief in the tooth fairy. I seen now re the quote: It used came from me. Someone else did quote me in reply to my comments but that I was quoted was not clear. Jon |
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Subject: RE: Rachel Unthank & The Winterset From: Folkiedave Date: 02 Feb 08 - 02:37 PM There was a time when I believed that folk music was somehow different and completely unaffected but I no longer believe that to be the case. When was this? Pre-Playford possibly? Certainly the Dancing Masters of the 18th and 19th century did a lot of "marketing" of their wares. Sharp wanted folk music into schools and did it a lot to promote folk music both into schools and the theatre. Read his introduction to his music for Midsummer Night's Dream. He "marketed" morris dancing by forming a team and having it travel around the country. I used a quote from someone else at the top of the post. The rest was not aimed at you. Care to sign your name? |
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Subject: RE: Rachel Unthank & The Winterset From: GUEST,Jon Date: 02 Feb 08 - 01:42 PM I've not said a folk artists do wrong by being involved with a big company... I seriously believe marketing can have an impact on everything. There was a time when I believed that folk music was somehow different and completely unaffected but I no longer believe that to be the case. I am not banging on about anything. You are. You had banged on in your previous 2 posts about people criticising them for floaty dresses and for EMI (neither of which I had mentioned). Your last post seemed (well you had quoted me in it) directed at me so I decided to give an indication of my feelings on the issues you were banging on about. |
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Subject: RE: Rachel Unthank & The Winterset From: Folkiedave Date: 02 Feb 08 - 01:25 PM And how do big companies and the power of marketing relate to RUATW? Tell me what folk singers do wrong mixing with big companies? Do you seriously believe it was clever marketing to get born in a hot bed of traditional music like the North East? To parents who are steeped in folk music? To go to loads of festivals when they were younger? To perform with rapper and clog teams when younger? To do festival and clubs as a duo for little return? etc. etc.....I booked them in 2003 and they were not with EMI then. They were with Adrian and they were starting to get well-known before that. They were a success before EMI - that's how they are on their second record. The EMI thing is about distribution - clearly they will then fall in with publicity - why is this is so wrong? Thirdly, this sort of thing works in the pop world hence the dozens of overnight successes who then disappear - it does not work in the folk world - which is why you rarely see it. If you sincerely believe RUATW are a product of marketing you are seriously mistaken. And if you don't why are you banging on about it? Dave Eyre |
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Subject: RE: Rachel Unthank & The Winterset From: GUEST,Jon Date: 02 Feb 08 - 12:40 PM I've read, I even provided a link in my post as Colin Randall's link was broken... As for the rest. I don't actually dislike their singing or their music. I've no opinion over floaty dresses. I do have opinions over big companies and the power of marketing, |
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Subject: RE: Rachel Unthank & The Winterset From: Folkiedave Date: 02 Feb 08 - 12:18 PM the trouble some of us making the negative comments have is we can't fathom (well sort of) "the best in folk music". Remarkably no-one on this thread has described them as such. They have been nominated for a number of awards - the results of which will be known on Monday night. If we believe John Lennard and Smooth Operations these are the distillations of over 150 judges - all of whom have connections with the world of folk music. I suspect RUATW will get best newcomers. But at the moment they have won nothing. If people don't like their singing - then switch them off when they come on the radio, and don't buy their CD. But don't slag them off for wearing floaty dresses (in all pictures two do and two don't) or for signing a distribution deal with a major label. Martin Carthy's first record was on Fontana. And go and read what Rachel says on Salut:Live. Subject: RE: Rachel Unthank & The Winterset From: Colin Randall - PM Date: 02 Feb 08 - 01:25 AM will take you there. |
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Subject: RE: Rachel Unthank & The Winterset From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's Apprentice Date: 02 Feb 08 - 12:13 PM "Feet in very high heels as percussion. Enough said" a variation on step dancing didn't Belinda O' Hooley (the piano player) quit, recently? I'm not convinced.... Charlotte (isn't rushing to be under the Unthank umbrella) |
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Subject: RE: Rachel Unthank & The Winterset From: GUEST,S Date: 02 Feb 08 - 11:49 AM Hey Charlotte... Re. your post a few back - "what is it that makes them so different apart from the cello"... This is what I think on the subject: 1) Harmony. This is the main reason I like them. I like simple harmony I prefer chords with extensions and coloured alterations. I think they have a good balance between the two with some progressions and voicings that are out of the ordinary. Belinda's sense of harmony and Adrian, Becky, Niopha and Rachel's taste in soundworlds seems to have led them to choose very beautiful, unconventional chord progressions. Instead of the usual tried and tested tonic-dominant polarity they use nice progressions like major 7th chords resolving up a major third, which sounds beautiful and unsettling. They use sharp 11ths and augmented triads and I love the sound of that harmony. It's Bill Evans-ish. It is pretty 'different' in folk I think. A really sophisticated sense of harmony is one of the reasons I like Joni Mitchell so much. Their vocal harmonies can be very close and sound a bit different, with tone/semitone clashes, tritones and accented suspended dissonances. It sounds really interesting. They use lots of different modes but I like that they don't mix them up to much - their songs seem to stick to one mode with very noticeable peak points when they add a chromatic note and it's really nice. Like they're retaining the beautiful simplicity of folk, but translating it into the unusual soundworld of contemporary jazz. 2) The way they use piano couldn't possibly be further from silly Cecil Sharp drawing room. It's innovative. Drones on piano are a bold thing to do. Using it as a bell-like sound. Holding the sustain pedal for a ridiculously long time is just not the done thing but it works. Playing high up in the piano register while the singers sing lines beneath. That's quite quirky. Then all the Tin pan alley pastiche. It's not the commonest thing in folk is it? 3) Feet in very high heels as percussion. Enough said. 4) I think Becky and Rachel's voices are unique and powerfully honest and communicative. But this is a particularly subjective point I realise. I don't really see what's so different about the cello... S |
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Subject: RE: Rachel Unthank & The Winterset From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's Apprentice Date: 02 Feb 08 - 11:12 AM the trouble some of us making the negative comments have is we can't fathom (well sort of) "the best in folk music". just what do you mean by "The best in folk" (sounds like Crufts, you know, Best in show *LOL*) My approach is simply what I like and what I don't like. Charlotte (has never won any award at Crufts or the Radio 2 Folk Awards) |
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Subject: RE: Rachel Unthank & The Winterset From: Folkiedave Date: 02 Feb 08 - 10:14 AM I hope those who criticised RUATW for being with EMI and those who criticised "floaty dresses" read Colin's interview. Rachel, (for it is she) comes out of all with dignity and grace. Dave Eyre |
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Subject: RE: Rachel Unthank & The Winterset From: Giant Folk Eyeball (inactive) Date: 02 Feb 08 - 04:05 AM Thanks for that Colin. An enjoyable read. And Rachel dealt with the mud(cat)slinging with far more dignity and aplomb than I would have been able to muster... I reckon you could start a thread on any english singer of traditional songs aged 35 or under, and within days it would be riddled with abuse. Personally, I don't have a problem with robust but fair criticism. It's the slightly psychopathic stuff (especially from some of the anons) that can seem a bit creepy and sick. I do suspect that some of the comments on this thread are as much to do with the posters' 'difficult' personalities as they are to do with the Winterset. There's at least one regular poster contributing here who regardless of the subject of the discussion is nearly always negative when other people are being positive and vice versa. It a form of arrested development called 'oppositional disorder'. My four year old is very good at it. Cheers Nigel |
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Subject: RE: Rachel Unthank & The Winterset From: GUEST Date: 02 Feb 08 - 04:02 AM I note in the interview at http://www.salutlive.com/, she says " It definitely doesn't seem to be inspiring luke warm receptions, good or bad, which is exciting!". My reading of this thread is that many of the reactions (to the group) here are luke warm. Mine is for one. There are some nastier comments but I think, in the main, the trouble some of us making the negative comments have is we can't fathom (well sort of) "the best in folk music". There again, I suppose some here would have difficulty in working out why I find this the best clip I've found on youtube in a few weeks. Jon (can't get it to post with a name in "from") |
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Subject: RE: Rachel Unthank & The Winterset From: Colin Randall Date: 02 Feb 08 - 01:28 AM ...and apologies for the typos..... was up until 3am posting the first two sections of the interview |
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Subject: RE: Rachel Unthank & The Winterset From: Colin Randall Date: 02 Feb 08 - 01:25 AM In case anyone wanst to know what Rachel Unthank makes of this discussion, I have begin posting an interview with her at Salut! Live The idea for the interview predated the debate (it was inspired by another thread in which someone actually objected to the fact that the Unthank sisters have Geordie accents) but she deals fully with her reaction to what has appeared here. |
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Subject: RE: Rachel Unthank & The Winterset From: Folkiedave Date: 01 Feb 08 - 06:44 PM Oops - and a great favourite who is coming on leaps and bounds whilst on the degree course - Hannah James. Also Ruth Notman has improved beyond recognition since I first saw her in 2003. She's only abut 19 now. Norma born 1939 - was 24/25 as the Watersons got going - Lal commensurately younger. |
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Subject: RE: Rachel Unthank & The Winterset From: Folkiedave Date: 01 Feb 08 - 06:41 PM 'm still looking for the successors to the mantle of the Young Tradition, or the Watersons as harmony singers, or Lal or Norma Waterson as solo singers. Successor to Lal? That'll be the day!! I think you are asking too much here Richard. :-) What I think has happened is that the young have turned to instruments a lot more and damn good they are too. As far as singers are concerned then there is Tim vE and Jim C. Julie Fowlis certainly has a wonderful voice - hard to hold audiences singing a foreign language and she does it brilliantly. Jon Boden is not that old - and he has a great voice. But not a great lot of young singers I give you. Bella Hardy? |
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Subject: RE: Rachel Unthank & The Winterset From: Richard Bridge Date: 01 Feb 08 - 06:29 PM Look, they're OK (especially without the piano, shame the singer went with it) from what I can find on YouTube but not a patch on Jon Loomes. Or Nuada's instrumental drone work. No disrespect. They're OK. They are not rubbish. I'm still looking for the successors to the mantle of the Young Tradition, or the Watersons as harmony singers, or Lal or Norma Waterson as solo singers. Where is the young Jean Redpath, the young June Tabor, where are the Keelers of today? Where is the vocal fire? Why did Whorticulture die? We seem to be afraid, today, of strong meat in our folk music (by which I mean folk music). If I liked what they did, I'd like Whapweasel. At least they kick arse. |
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Subject: RE: Rachel Unthank & The Winterset From: AllanW Date: 01 Feb 08 - 06:16 PM Ha! point taken. Must choose my words more carefully. |
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Subject: RE: Rachel Unthank & The Winterset From: AllanW Date: 01 Feb 08 - 05:43 PM hehe I'll bet there's a few albums on our respective shelves that we both love equally. In fact, I'll bet we could argue who likes them the best. Have a nice weekend (and every day). Sunshine ps. I still can't believe my favourite band were in the sodding Sun today. What's the world coming to? |
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Subject: RE: Rachel Unthank & The Winterset From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's Apprentice Date: 01 Feb 08 - 05:35 PM though you were enjoying your weekend, sunshine? *LOL* "I like the imperfection. That's what's different" is that all? Great name dropper you are as well....*LOL* Charlotte(told off but unrepentent) |
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Subject: RE: Rachel Unthank & The Winterset From: Cuddles Date: 01 Feb 08 - 05:34 PM Do they ever sing happy songs at all? :-( |
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Subject: RE: Rachel Unthank & The Winterset From: AllanW Date: 01 Feb 08 - 05:32 PM A couple of those articles, if you're at all interested. http://www.fatea-records.co.uk/magazine/unthanklive.html http://www.fatea-records.co.uk/CAMBRID/cam07/unthankreview.html |
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Subject: RE: Rachel Unthank & The Winterset From: AllanW Date: 01 Feb 08 - 05:24 PM Why do you want to know Charlotte? Why so much interest in a band you can't stand? Why the comparison to older or more established folk legends? Barry Dransfield scraped away on almost every conceivable violin shaped instrument, and wonderful he was/is. Dave Swarbrick is my favourite musician on earth, I love him to bits, ever since I swapped my copy of White Light White Heat for Babbacombe Lee in '71. I am the Unthank's number one fan (hehe) or very close, but I don't for one minute want to compare them to anyone; I want them to sit side by side my favourites in my little collection of goodies and be just what they are. I have written many pieces on the band (for my own amusement) and some have been published all over the place. Each time I openly admit what makes them 'different' to me, and sometimes at the risk of causing offence. I love them because they are not polished. I love them because when they sing a lyric, emotion pours out. I don't want another Sandy Denny, we already have one. There's a famous line in a famous song by The Flying Burrito Brothers where Gram Parsons sings 'I'm your toy, I'm your old boy' and in it, his voice breaks momentarily. That is what is so great about Hot Burrito #1, it has soul. If it had been sung perfectly, it would have lost it's meaning. Rachel Unthank and the Winterset have soul in buckets. I like the imperfection. That's what's different. |
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Subject: RE: Rachel Unthank & The Winterset From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's Apprentice Date: 01 Feb 08 - 04:59 PM Explain to me exactly what it is that is SO different about RU and The Winterset...the use of a cello? Dave Swarbrick used a viola almost 40 years ago on Leige & Lief (least according to the cover of the CD he did). vocals...heard it all before...so just what is it that makes this aggregation so different? Charlotte (wondering while listening to The Watersons) |
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Subject: RE: Rachel Unthank & The Winterset From: Cuddles Date: 01 Feb 08 - 04:43 PM "..and when someone dares to do something different we are constantly visited by Brian Sewell? Allan" Ah now Allan, if you've Brian Sewell appearing at your local folk club that could be where they're going wrong! ;-) Tell them to book Seth or Benji, get some Funky Folk in instead. Cuddles |
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Subject: RE: Rachel Unthank & The Winterset From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's Apprentice Date: 01 Feb 08 - 04:41 PM I don't even know Kate, but what she says makes sense to me "You are just plain rude" pot calling the kettle black, eh unidentified "Guest" ? "You do know we are the most ridiculed people next to train spotters don't you?" "we" are?...news to me. Charlotte (enjoys every day, not just the weekend) |
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Subject: RE: Rachel Unthank & The Winterset From: GUEST Date: 01 Feb 08 - 04:16 PM Oh here we go, the Kate and Charlotte sisters again Please, please, please have the last word.. I'm off to enjoy my weekend. |
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Subject: RE: Rachel Unthank & The Winterset From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's Apprentice Date: 01 Feb 08 - 04:01 PM "I reckon it's more likely that you just can't stomach people getting on and doing well." Apparently people can't just dislike a group or individual. The old "you dislike them because they're successful" is quite simply a cop out...didn't it used to read "you don't like them because as far as your concerned they've sold out"? Different words, same talking heads... Charlotte (not currently appearing on the BBC Radio 2) |
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Subject: RE: Rachel Unthank & The Winterset From: GUEST Date: 01 Feb 08 - 03:51 PM GUESTKate, I have gone through life living with people who don't like what I like. What an idiotic thing to say. I wouldn't be into folk music if I cared what other people thought of my tastes in music, now would I? You do know we are the most ridiculed people next to train spotters don't you? I care about friends of mine being ridiculed publicly for doing nothing wrong. Period. You are just plain rude. |
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Subject: RE: Rachel Unthank & The Winterset From: GUEST Date: 01 Feb 08 - 03:36 PM "If the art world were as peculiar and set in their way as the some areas of the folk world are, then he'd never have had any praise for anything, and yet, there was this incredible genius, just 15 years old, who was producing breathtaking sculpture." ..and when someone dares to do something different we are constantly visited by Brian Sewell? Allan |
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Subject: RE: Rachel Unthank & The Winterset From: GUEST,kate Date: 01 Feb 08 - 03:27 PM > Please be honest about this. Some of you don't like the songs or the way they are being performed, fair enough, but I can't help reading between the lines and I reckon it's more likely that you just can't stomach people getting on and doing well. Sorry, NO. Some of us just don't care that much for them or think they're as good as they're cracked up to be. It's not an agenda, it's not spite, it's just a difference in taste. Why don't YOU be honest and admit that you can't bear for anyone not to like what you like? I will not let a stranger put vindictive attitudes on me that I don't have. Why do you find any opinion about this group that's different from yours so unbearable that you have to make up a fake scenario just so you can condemn it? "I can't help reading between the lines" says it all. Try reading the lines that are THERE. |
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Subject: RE: Rachel Unthank & The Winterset From: Cuddles Date: 01 Feb 08 - 03:27 PM By the way has anyone listened to Benji Kirkpatrick's new song recently 'Wallbreaker' |
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Subject: RE: Rachel Unthank & The Winterset From: Cuddles Date: 01 Feb 08 - 03:21 PM "As for the lack of young people at folk clubs, I attribute that in part to the white-middle-classness of them, and the retreat of said people into rural England." I'd attribute it to young people having to do 75 and three quarter years of 'apprenticeship' before they're taken seriously! (this is said with humour, for those who have none by the way) Tell me, if Michelangelo had been a folk singer, would he have been made to keep quiet? If the art world were as peculiar and set in their way as the some areas of the folk world are, then he'd never have had any praise for anything, and yet, there was this incredible genius, just 15 years old, who was producing breathtaking sculpture. Sandy Denny, at 19, wrote 'Who Knows Where The Time Goes' Richard Thompson, still a teenager when he penned 'Meet On The Ledge' IF someone has talent, they HAVE talent, and it should not matter if they had that talent from a very early age. Nobody has the right to tell them to subdue that talent for 10/15 years because they haven't learnt the ropes in the way they are 'expected to' It's what's keeping the folk clubs empty in so many cases, or keeping them filled with people of just one generation. It's not healthy for the future. The 'old rules' no longer apply. The young people are making their own ones. It's time for the older generations to perhaps learn a little from them. Michelangelo 15 yrs old & drummed out of the folk club for not being experienced |
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Subject: RE: Rachel Unthank & The Winterset From: Folkiedave Date: 01 Feb 08 - 03:15 PM I posted earlier that once again a folk artist (Seth Lakeman was another) has become an overnight success after years in the business. I'd love to know where these people were when the Rachel and Becky Unthank were going the rounds of festivals and folk clubs for next to no money. I don't begrudge them any kind of success - whenever I have met Rachel and Becky (last time just before Xmas where they were part of the audience for the first night of "Christmas Champions") they have been thoroughly pleasant people who have worked hard for any success that has come their way. |
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Subject: RE: Rachel Unthank & The Winterset From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's Apprentice Date: 01 Feb 08 - 03:13 PM "But don't knock or mock them. They are the future." I'm sorry, but WHATEVER gave you that idea? They are not now, nor will they ever be. GUEST,Euthryphro has it right, the future depends on no one band or individual and nor should it. I don't personally think the RU and The Winterset will not bring "young people" into the clubs Your whole posting, nutty, smacks of an EMI or management handout for the media at large, sorry, I for one am not falling for it Charlotte (keeping a strict eye on the future) |
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Subject: RE: Rachel Unthank & The Winterset From: GUEST Date: 01 Feb 08 - 03:07 PM I feel sorry for the girls, their friends and their family who have had to endure this crap for the last few weeks, by either their own curiosity visiting this thread, or by what filters through the grapevine. The negatives are predominently hurtful and the positives are defensive, not as has been suggested, that of 'marshalling' acceptance. Remember, these are not multi-million dollar celebs who get barrow loads of cash fed into their bank accounts that serves to cover putting up with this nonesense. They are hard working musicians who have done dozens of back rooms and are only just starting to be noticed. If a Sun reader does manage to somehow find him/herself in a record shop buying their cd due to today's article, who the hell cares whether that is their first impression of folk music or not? I could have come into folk music by listening to any of a thousand folk LPs and never bothered again. That's the nature of this music you're all supposed to love. Not a single one of you knows the extent of EMI's involvement, yet you continue to speculate on marketing strategies with absolutely zero credibility to your comments. Please be honest about this. Some of you don't like the songs or the way they are being performed, fair enough, but I can't help reading between the lines and I reckon it's more likely that you just can't stomach people getting on and doing well. It's typical of this country. Like it until it gets noticed, then knock it down. Shame on you. And those of you who are going to spring to your own defence and say 'I never liked them from the start' please show us that thread. Allan Wilkinson |
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Subject: RE: Rachel Unthank & The Winterset From: GUEST,Euthryphro Date: 01 Feb 08 - 01:46 PM Sorry for the above; I meant to preview, to work out this italics business, and submitted by accident. Would you be asking that question if their name was Carthy?? I said a long time back in this thread that the girls have undergone a long probation/apprenticeship. Particularly Rachel, whose involvement with childrens activities at Cambridge festival (mainly clog dancing workshops) has had her moving in a different dimension from most floor singers. But don't knock or mock them. They are the future. They will help to draw another generation into the genre, something that is sorely needed when most folk clubs I know rarely see an under 40 year old. I'm aware of the "probation" of which you speak, I saw the Unthanks for the first time in Sidmouth Parish Church in what must have been 2003. I don't hold with this folky idea of unity, that we must all get behind whatever the new young thing is, for the sake of the genre. There's room for a difference of opinion, surely? It almost suggests that we're short of options! I happen to think Jim Moray is the great hope of folk music this generation. Jackie Oates has been mentioned in this thread, as have Kerfuffle. I might add bands like 4Square, who will, either in that band or in their constituent parts, go far I imagine. Bella Hardy's new album is out, to throw another hat in the ring. All of these have served that probation of which you speak; the Oates family's folky roots run as deep as the Unthanks, I imagine (not that I think this should be a qualifying characteristic, but some do). Kerfuffle have been a gigging band for years, Bella Hardy was a member of the Pack and played festivals since the beginning of the decade at least, Jim and Nicola of 4Square are veterans of other acts as well. So don't try and marshall us all behind the Winterset flag as if the future of folk depends on them; it depends on no one band or individual, and the intelligent music lover will continue to make free decisions about what he/she likes; I only hope they do it based on the music, not on the marketing. As for the lack of young people at folk clubs, I attribute that in part to the white-middle-classness of them, and the retreat of said people into rural England. Pubs in the middle of nowhere do not make attractive or accessible venues for young people; where are the city centre clubs that kickstarted the revival of the 60s? With the Magpies Nest an honourable exception, London seems to be devoid of good clubs. There are plenty of young music fans around, but the prohibitive cost of driving, the nonexistent public transport to these middle-of-nowhere pubs (or equally arts centres, which often have delightful settings but are inaccessible except by car) and the lack of marketing to said young people mean they won't find the music. |
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Subject: RE: Rachel Unthank & The Winterset From: GUEST Date: 01 Feb 08 - 01:31 PM Would you be asking that question if their name was Carthy?? I said a long time back in this thread that the girls have undergone a long probation/apprenticeship. Particularly Rachel, whose involvement with childrens activities at Cambridge festival (mainly clog dancing workshops) has had her moving in a different dimension from most floor singers. But don't knock or mock them. They are the future. They will help to draw another generation into the genre, something that is sorely needed when most folk clubs I know rarely see an under 40 year old. |
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Subject: RE: Rachel Unthank & The Winterset From: nutty Date: 01 Feb 08 - 01:22 PM Why have they received the attention they have?? Would you be asking that question if their name was Carthy?? I said a long time back in this thread that the girls have undergone a long probation/apprenticeship. Particularly Rachel, whose involvement with childrens activities at Cambridge festival (mainly clog dancing workshops) has had her moving in a different dimension from most floor singers. But don't knock or mock them. They are the future. They will help to draw another generation into the genre, something that is sorely needed when most folk clubs I know rarely see an under 40 year old. |
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Subject: RE: Rachel Unthank & The Winterset From: GUEST,S Date: 01 Feb 08 - 01:18 PM If their success is so dependent on EMI's marketing strategies, perhaps someone could explain to me why EMI chose to sign them in the first place? Could it be because of Adrian McNally's (persisently villified for some bizarre reason...) 'vicious marketing'. I don't think so. Unless sitting at the kitchen table printing their own posters and leaflets is 'vicious'. It really makes no sense why anyone would raise an eyebrow in any way at the job Adrian does as a manager looking after his band. What's so 'vicious' about that?! As for Rachel and Becky's singing, I have to agree with GUEST Robert and ask all you moaners what the evidence is. Were they flat.. sharp? Maybe you just don't 'get' dissonant hamonies? I've seen them sing a lot and their tuning is fine. And if it wasn't at a few gigs in the past for whatever reason, who cares? They are creative and daring musicians and the odd off-key note doesn't detract from that. Singing is different from playing an instrument - it's not just about learning the technique and playing. I can always play piano no matter how I'm feeling, but I can't sing if I'm ill or feeling bad. Those people who've witnessed these supposed out of tune gigs, which I haven't seen might be a little less cold and consider the fact that the voice is sensitive to a person's whole state of being. Some singers cancel gigs if they're a bit down and have a funny throat. The Unthanks just get on with it because they're tough and they work hard. One thing that does amuse me is the lofty authority lots of people seem to be adopting on this thread. GUESTnot a geordie for example: discussing Jackie Oates and EMI's corporate strategy with such superiority. Do you work for EMI? Were you there when the band and Jackie parted ways?? |
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Subject: RE: Rachel Unthank & The Winterset From: GUEST,PJ Date: 01 Feb 08 - 01:08 PM Can you PLEASE start another thread if you want to talk about pianos. It's a very good subject, just not here. Give it its own thread. Please. |
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Subject: RE: Rachel Unthank & The Winterset From: GUEST,Kiss Me Slow Slap Me Quick Date: 01 Feb 08 - 12:59 PM Mole Catcher's ... Apprentice. Don't like piano? may I recomend having an ear full or two of piano playing Cape Bereton style. |
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Subject: RE: Rachel Unthank & The Winterset From: GUEST,Euthryphro Date: 01 Feb 08 - 12:32 PM I'll take a pseudonym, so as to avoid the mud-slinging that seems to be aimed at GUESTs. I won't reveal my identity. It would be worth remembering that many here may conceal their identity because it would be professionally indiscreet to reveal it. I'm nothing to write home about, but as someone at least vaguely associated with the folk/roots musical world, it makes little sense to nail my colours to the mast on the subject of someone I might meet, bump into at a festival, work for/with. Just to count myself out of a few of the other generalisations above, I like Show of Hands and Seth Lakeman, so its not about success. My objection to the Winterset is the clear victory of marketing over content; the disparity between ability and perception. This is ever more apparent with the departure of Jackie and Belinda, both of whom could be considered to have been propping the band up, in my opinion. Admittedly, one person's raw, honest singing is another person's untrained, out-of-tune wail, but afraid I'm closer to the latter category than the former where the Unthanks are concerned. My question is this; why have they received the attention that they have? Is it to do with the music, or is it to do with a strong, some might say overly so, manager/agent? There are some interesting stories doing the rounds about Adrian McNally, and I won't claim to know which ones are true, but one might conclude something about smoke and fire. Are folk audiences so gullible as to be taken in by a few choice quotes from "famous" or "mainstream" types (the Phil Jupitus one springs to mind), or are there some more discerning types about? |
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Subject: RE: Rachel Unthank & The Winterset From: GUEST,Kiss Me Slow Slap Me Quick Date: 01 Feb 08 - 12:10 PM Big full page spread in todays Sun Newspaper re Rachel & Becky Unthank. Under the heading .... Exclusive : Folk Music's New Darlings. So if it's in the Sun it must be true. It starts off ... the Geordie lasses still pinch themselves when they consider they are actualy making a living out of singing.... Yeah? some of us punch ourselves when we consider they are actualy making a living out of singing. I am being unfair. The are out there performing and working hard but if any non folk punters read this and go allong to hear them and think this is be best Folk Music has to offer !!!!! |
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Subject: RE: Rachel Unthank & The Winterset From: BB Date: 31 Jan 08 - 11:33 AM GUEST, Robert, I've nothing against Rachel and The Winterset, but you really should get out more if you think that the Carthys and the Watersons are all the other folk music that's available! Or that it's all 'finger in the ear or a whiny Norfolk accent'! You've only got to read a lot of what's on Mudcat to find that there is far more to the folk genre than that. If you're prepared to look and listen, enjoy your voyage of discovery! Barbara |
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Subject: RE: Rachel Unthank & The Winterset From: Abdul The Bul Bul Date: 31 Jan 08 - 08:46 AM Hi Charlotte, I'm not sure what you mean. I wasn't getting at floor singers but the folk who stay in the bar till they've finished and then crash through just before the guest. For I am one of those floor singers. Alan Clayton |
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Subject: RE: Rachel Unthank & The Winterset From: GUEST,Robert Date: 30 Jan 08 - 06:29 PM I've never been too keen on Folk (or what I've heard of it over the last forty years), although I wouldn't criticise anyone who gets pleasure from the genre. Perhaps I'm proving the point of those expressing negative opinions of the Unthanks, but I was actually quite surprised when I became aware that they were deemed to be Folk. My introduction to their music was a combination of seeing their ad in Songlines and, some months later, deciding to see if they had any audio samples on Myspace. They did, and I was hooked from the first few bars of Felton Lonnen. To draw a somewhat obscure comparison, the eerie atmospherics of the song reminded me of an old Bobbie Gentry LP I had as a kid (& I don't like Country music, either). Rather than buying "The Bairns" (the Phill Jupitus recommendation put me off), we went to see them at The Round in Ouseburn. A pretty small venue, very cosy, not that which you would associate with apparently overhyped EMI quislings. I had a daft grin on my face for the duration. Highly entertaining, great banter, a good long show and it isn't often that you end up waiting in the interval toilet queue with half the band you've paid to see. Not that I see that as a particular advantage, of course. I couldn't fault the quality of the musicianship or singing and the acoustics in the venue were spot on. As a result of that show, I bought both their albums. Enjoyed both but with a preference for the newer one. Not being a Folk expert, there may be scores of superior performers out there, but if I can't listen to Fareweel Regality without getting a lump in my throat, they must be doing something right. My only criticism would be the length of one or two of the songs. I'm sure that, as has been suggested, O'Hooley's contribution has done a lot for them but only time will tell if her absence will disadvantage them. I'm surprised by the criticisms of their voices. Rachel's is full of character and energy, while Becky's breathy soulfulness provides a great contrast and complement. In particular, the younger sister's voice is a revelation in the live setting. Oh, and where's the evidence for their supposed problems with keeping in tune? More recently, I got an e-mail inviting me to their pre-tour gig in a tiny cinema in Newcastle. By the time I rang for tickets, I figured they'd have sold all 50 of them but I tried anyway. Somewhat surprised to find myself talking to Rachel, who then put me through to Adrian the manager. Very corporate EMI, I don't think. For me, it's been a breath of fresh air to be able to enjoy something from the Folk genre that is outside of the holy trinity of Carthy, Waterson and, erm, Carthy - and neither a finger in the ear nor a whiny Norfolk accent. Mind, I still prefer The Fall. |
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Subject: RE: Rachel Unthank & The Winterset From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's non pretentious Apprentic Date: 29 Jan 08 - 12:25 PM "Nothing wrong with the pianist but I hate the sound of pianos on folk. It's sooo DRAWING ROOM..." O how too too Richard, old bean...*LOL* Charlotte (has never been to a drawing room soireee and doesn't know the Rev. Begoode) |
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Subject: RE: Rachel Unthank & The Winterset From: Folkiedave Date: 29 Jan 08 - 05:42 AM I would have thought hate was a bit strong Richard. I usually apply that word to things like world poverty and war Iraq. And if I tell the truth - winter weather in summer. Just playing Sharon Shannon GRACD226 "Each Little Thing". One track credits Graham Henderson, Hammond Organ. |
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