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BS: Apostrophe Question???
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Subject: BS: Apostrophe Question??? From: Bobert Date: 17 Feb 08 - 06:57 PM Okay I ain't gonna say which side I'm on 'cause I don't wanta prejudice the answer but me and the P-Vine had a little disagreement over the use of an apostrophe and we have a little bet wagered on the answer... So here goes: Which is correct? 1. There are 2 b's in Bobert. or... 2. There are 2 bs is Bobert. B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Apostrophe Question??? From: Ebbie Date: 17 Feb 08 - 07:01 PM hahhaha You're leading with your chin in the second hypothesis, Beaubear. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Apostrophe Question??? From: Mrrzy Date: 17 Feb 08 - 07:02 PM b's is my vote, but I'm not sure if it's actually *correct* - anybody learn English as a foreign language? They are usually the ones who remember the rules... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Apostrophe Question??? From: artbrooks Date: 17 Feb 08 - 07:06 PM An apostrophe is used to make a possessive or a contraction. IMHO, it is NEVER used to make a plural. However, a few internet sources disagree with me (as do a few people on Mudcat, from time to time)...grammar.about.com says that the specific thing you are asking about is allowed. Especially in Virginia. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Apostrophe Question??? From: katlaughing Date: 17 Feb 08 - 07:07 PM The "bees" are not possessive, so according to my editor boss, there should be no apostrophe. OH, but hang on....read this: Apostrophes are sometimes used to make acronyms or other abbreviations plural (another matter of a local house style). My preference: don't use apostrophes to make abbreviations plural — not "They took their SAT's," but "They took their SATs." The only exception is when having no apostrophe might be confusing: "Two As" is ambiguous (it might be read as the word as); make it "Two A's." Never use apostrophes as single quotation marks to set off words or phrases (unless you need a quotation within a quotation). Using an apostrophe to refer to a decade — the 1960's versus the 1960s — is another matter of house style; again, journalists tend to use the apostrophe, and most other publishers don't. I prefer to omit it: refer to the 1960s or the '60s (the apostrophe indicates that "19" has been omitted), not the 1960's or (worse) the '60's. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Apostrophe Question??? From: Rowan Date: 17 Feb 08 - 07:08 PM "Bobert" has one B and one b if you're a pedant. But some might say there are two "b"s in his name. So, two "b"s or not two b's; that is the question. No? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Apostrophe Question??? From: TheSnail Date: 17 Feb 08 - 07:08 PM You're not a greengrocer are you Bobert? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Apostrophe Question??? From: Ebbie Date: 17 Feb 08 - 07:20 PM I think Rowan's got it. Clarity is the thing. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Apostrophe Question??? From: vectis Date: 17 Feb 08 - 07:26 PM 2 is correct English. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Apostrophe Question??? From: John on the Sunset Coast Date: 17 Feb 08 - 07:29 PM No apostrophe there Bobert; it is neither (or neither) a possessive nor a contraction. BTW the choice of pronunciation of N E I T H E R sounds better than it reads. >) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Apostrophe Question??? From: Bee-dubya-ell Date: 17 Feb 08 - 07:32 PM You're both wrong. When referring to a word, letter, or number by name, it should always be enclosed in quotation marks. So the correct form is: There are two "b"s in "Bobert". That, of course, assumes that the entire phrase itself isn't a direct quotaion. If that were the case, the proper form would be: "There are two 'b's in 'Bobert'." In such a construction, the mark after the "b" is a single quotation mark, not an apostrophe. They just look the same. To further complicate matters, I'm old-fashioned and always use full quotation marks, but some writers have opted for the single quotation mark style. In that case, the proper form would be: 'There are two "b"s in "Bobert".' Since the writer is enclosing the entire quotation within single quotation marks, full quatation marks are used for the "b". Now go back to bed until your back feels better. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Apostrophe Question??? From: Sorcha Date: 17 Feb 08 - 07:33 PM My brain hurtz. Now Bobertz done it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Apostrophe Question??? From: Jeri Date: 17 Feb 08 - 07:35 PM According the the Perdue University writing lab, b's is appropriate. You can use an apostrophe in plurals of lower case letters. I write "CDs" though, because it's a clear plural when the 's' follows upper case letters. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Apostrophe Question??? From: Leadfingers Date: 17 Feb 08 - 07:36 PM I think I will stay out of THIS one ! LOL |
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Subject: RE: BS: Apostrophe Question??? From: Jeri Date: 17 Feb 08 - 07:38 PM If someone disagrees with me, they surely will be able to cite a reliable source. (I'm assuming Perdue is fairly reliable.) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Apostrophe Question??? From: bobad Date: 17 Feb 08 - 07:41 PM So is Purdue. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Apostrophe Question??? From: Jeri Date: 17 Feb 08 - 07:42 PM Yeesh! Must've been thinking about chickens... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Apostrophe Question??? From: Steve Shaw Date: 17 Feb 08 - 07:45 PM The apostrophe is just plain wrong. There is no excuse for mistake's of this sort. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Apostrophe Question??? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 17 Feb 08 - 07:59 PM Apostrophes aren't just used to indicate a possessive.Another use is to indcate the absenbce of letters, yet another is as a closing quote mark, and a third is for plurals of letters or numbers, as in the example Boberts supplied. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Apostrophe Question??? From: Ebbie Date: 17 Feb 08 - 08:06 PM As I said, clarity of communication is the thing. To say, as Bobert postulated, that 'There are two bs in Bobert', is not only unclear but vaguely scatological. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Apostrophe Question??? From: artbrooks Date: 17 Feb 08 - 08:10 PM The operative question is...where in Bobert are these bees? If they are in his bonnet, that is simply normal. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Apostrophe Question??? From: Charley Noble Date: 17 Feb 08 - 08:12 PM McGrath- "the absenbce of letters"? Maybe an apostrophe would help your spelling. LOL Charley Noble |
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Subject: RE: BS: Apostrophe Question??? From: bobad Date: 17 Feb 08 - 08:12 PM Bobert, I would have those bb's removed forthwith. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Apostrophe Question??? From: Peace Date: 17 Feb 08 - 08:17 PM Bobert, I know lot's about apo'strophe's so s'tay with me on thi's, OK? Let me know a's s'oon a's your' ready. I'm here to help. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Apostrophe Question??? From: Jim Dixon Date: 17 Feb 08 - 08:17 PM I suspect a difference between American and British conventions here. I've noticed, especially when discussing recordings, Brits tend to write 45s, 78s, LPs, CDs, the 1950s, and so on, while Americans are likely to use an apostrophe: 45's, 78's, LP's, CD's, the 1950's. Of course, we Americans don't generally use an apostrophe with plurals; this convention applies only when the thing being pluralized isn't an ordinary word, but rather a letter, a number, or an abbreviation. Although I'm American, I have recently adopted the British style of writing CDs, 1950s, etc., because it just makes more sense. Dang it, I've got a Chicago Manual of Style around here somewhere; if only I knew where to lay my hands on it! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Apostrophe Question??? From: Bill D Date: 17 Feb 08 - 08:26 PM "while Americans are likely to use an apostrophe: 45's, 78's, LP's, CD's, the 1950's." not THIS American. I strongly resist the use of excessive apostrophes. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Apostrophe Question??? From: Peace Date: 17 Feb 08 - 08:29 PM "I strongly resist the use of excessive apostrophes." I too s'trongly re'sis't the us'e of exce's's'ive apo'strophe's'. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Apostrophe Question??? From: Beer Date: 17 Feb 08 - 08:29 PM I'm going with BoBBert. Sounds like "Barbarian" and I always liked that tune. Hope you get the correct answer so you can sleep tonight. B'eer (adrien) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Apostrophe Question??? From: Jeri Date: 17 Feb 08 - 08:32 PM If he wins, he may be able to sleep, but he'll probably be outside with the dog. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Apostrophe Question??? From: Bill D Date: 17 Feb 08 - 08:32 PM "I too s'trongly re'sis't.... " needs a couple of commas "I, too, s'trongly re'sis't .. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Apostrophe Question??? From: Peace Date: 17 Feb 08 - 08:33 PM Hey, Bobert/Bobbert: Have you considered something like "Mississippi Bob Ert or even "Boston" Bob Bert or Tallahassea/Tallahasassy/Talahassey "Chicago" Bo Bert? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Apostrophe Question??? From: Peace Date: 17 Feb 08 - 08:35 PM Yeah, Bill's got it,'. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Apostrophe Question??? From: Jeri Date: 17 Feb 08 - 08:36 PM Bill, it's comma's! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Apostrophe Question??? From: Peace Date: 17 Feb 08 - 08:37 PM SHE'S GOT IT. We've been reading upside down. It's the yoga. Really. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Apostrophe Question??? From: artbrooks Date: 17 Feb 08 - 08:43 PM Jim, I don't have a Chicago Manual of Style, but my copy of Turabian says that alphabetic plurals with apostrophes are an allowable form, as are alphabetic plurals without apostrophes, as long as one is consistent. Plurals of numbers, including dates (eg, 45s, the 1960s) are formed without one. A good (and funny) book which examines the differences in transoceanic punctuation style is Eats, Shoots & Leaves by Lynne Truss. She says that "b's" is fine for more than one "b", and that "1900s" is normal everywhere but the US, where "1900's" is the accepted plural. The jury is obviously out on the latter. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Apostrophe Question??? From: Bobert Date: 17 Feb 08 - 08:44 PM '... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Apostrophe Question??? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 17 Feb 08 - 08:46 PM If we were rigorous about these things I suppose my name would be written as "M'cGrath", to indicate the missing "a". Fortunately we aren't. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Apostrophe Question??? From: Bee-dubya-ell Date: 17 Feb 08 - 09:54 PM "The crux of the biscuit is the apostrophe." Frank Zappa |
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Subject: RE: BS: Apostrophe Question??? From: Slag Date: 17 Feb 08 - 10:15 PM The letter "b" appears twice in Bobert's name. If you have any other questions I can be found in the fo'c's'le. Ahoy! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Apostrophe Question??? From: Rowan Date: 17 Feb 08 - 10:30 PM Bobert's had lots of possibilities canvassed so far but 'til there's consensus I'll wait with 'bated breath; Mudcat's expertise comes to the fore again. Five apostrophes for a commonly absented letter or set of letters, two of which are aphetic, and there's one possessive apostrophe thrown in for good measure. Cheers, Rowan |
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Subject: RE: BS: Apostrophe Question??? From: Slag Date: 18 Feb 08 - 12:13 AM How many apostrophes can you correctly use in one word? My entry is the possessive of the above mentioned "fo'c's'le". I'l put it in quotes to belay any confusion (snicker, snicker), "The fo'c's'le's entry way was blocked." That's four! What a strophe of genius! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Apostrophe Question??? From: Slag Date: 18 Feb 08 - 12:14 AM What the "l"? I may have omitted it but I could have at least put an apostrophe in there. Hmmp! Some genius I turned out to be! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Apostrophe Question??? From: dick greenhaus Date: 18 Feb 08 - 12:24 AM The purpose of writing style is the facilitation of communication. "Bobert has two bs" doesn't communicate. "Bobert has two b's" does so does "Bobert has two Bs" as does (my preference" "Bobert has two 'b's" |
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Subject: RE: BS: Apostrophe Question??? From: Amos Date: 18 Feb 08 - 01:27 AM This is horse pucky. First, BWL has the correct answer in traditional grammar. Second, the use of an apostrophe in forming plurals as in "two b's on all his CD's" is allowable English, neither strictly adherent to prescribed grammar nor strictly in violation of it, by reason of increased usage. Grammarians may not like it but their subject includes the grey line of popular advance in which usage defines correctitude. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Apostrophe Question??? From: autolycus Date: 18 Feb 08 - 02:00 AM The redundant apostrophe (e.g. apple's 70p per pound, hence "the greengrocer's apostrophe) may be growing usage, and be becoming acceptable, but it began as a manifestation of striving ignorance. Someone mistakenly thought the above ex. required a ' when it didn't, and it became popular among the same ignorant group. It may be US usage; to me , CD's, the 1970's, etc. simply looks like usage by those who never fully grasped grammar; like I never fully grasped science. Doensn't mean to say we science-ignorant people can waffle on any old popular how. Popularity doesn't make it correct. Except in language. Of course. Harumph. Ivor |
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Subject: RE: BS: Apostrophe Question??? From: Jim Dixon Date: 18 Feb 08 - 02:04 AM Remember Don Imus' infamous remark about "nappy-headed ho's"? Or should that be "nappy-headed hos"? The following publications used the apostrophe: The Boston Globe The Chicago Tribune The Economist (UK) The New York Daily News The New Yorker The St. Louis Post-Dispatch The Village Voice (NY) USA Today The following publications omitted the apostrophe: The Boston Herald The Charlotte Observer The Globe and Mail (Toronto) The Guardian (UK) The Miami Herald The Telegraph (UK) The Times (UK) The Washington Post The following publications were inconsistent: The Nation (US) The New York Post The San Francisco Chronicle Digression: Dagens Nyheter, a Swedish newspaper, mistranslated the remark as "diaper-headed …" |
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Subject: RE: BS: Apostrophe Question??? From: GUEST Date: 18 Feb 08 - 09:38 AM To those who think there should be no apostrophe in terms such as b's: read the following. Don't put two many as in "as." [unclear] Don't put two many a's in "as." [clear] How many is are there in "is?" [unclear] How many i's are there in "is?" [clear] As for the matter of double quotation marks versus single, I've recently decided to use singles whenever possible, just because shifting to get the doubles is an extra step. Also, I have such short little fingers that when reaching for the shift key, I often hit something else. I have noticed that single quotes are often used for dialog in books. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Apostrophe Question??? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 18 Feb 08 - 10:01 AM The purpose of conventins about puncruationy is to ensure clarity. If applying some rule makes for ambiguity - as in the examples our last GUEST demonstrated - that just means that the rule in this instance is wrong. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Apostrophe Question??? From: Amos Date: 18 Feb 08 - 10:59 AM Wrongly including an apostrophe to make plurals where no apostrophe is needed is a very different thing -- agreed, a trend of flagrant ignorance. It is odd, but somehow consistent, that journalist would write "ho's" but would write "palominos" or "Oreos". It seems to me there is some subtle distinction being made which has not been fuly articulated properly. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Apostrophe Question??? From: GUEST,Dazbo at work Date: 18 Feb 08 - 11:16 AM Quoted from Jim Dixon above: "Remember Don Imus'...". That should of course read Don Imus's. Only plurals ending in "s" and, for some reason, biblical characters have the possesive apostrophe at the end of the word. Singular words ending "s" require the "'s" ending One thing about the greengrocer's apostrophe is the oft seen "potato's" which is correct as the apostrophe indicates the missing "e". |
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Subject: RE: BS: Apostrophe Question??? From: Bill D Date: 18 Feb 08 - 11:57 AM so..is ho a contraction or a careless pronunciation? Should we write nappy headed 'ho''s to indicate the missing w,r & e?....if not, and if ho is now accepted as designated nomenclature, then hos, like Oreos, is enough and needs no apostrophe. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Apostrophe Question??? From: Ebbie Date: 18 Feb 08 - 12:02 PM "potato's"? You'll have to convince me of that, Dazbo, unless you are referring to its texture, price or color. The plural of potato has always been potatoes. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Apostrophe Question??? From: PoppaGator Date: 18 Feb 08 - 01:02 PM As a professional typographer for about twenty years, until there was no such thing any longer, I can attest that the apostrophe can and should be used to form the plural of a letter or number. Normally, of course, it is incorrect to use "apostrophe-s" to form a plural; this is the only exception, to my knowledge, to the general rule. When I began my type-shop career as a proofreader, I was unaware of this exception to the usual rule and marked a usage similar to "two b's in Bobert" as incorrect ~ and subsequently learned that I was wrong. Strunk and whatzizname's "Elements of Style" probably will verify this; that's the main "rulebook" we used. This rule (or, more precisely, this exception to a rule) probably came about a matter of clarity: while we might be able to recognize "bs" as the plural of the letter "b" (especially in context), we would more likely be confused when confronted with "as" or "is" (as opposed to "a's" or "i's"), since those plurals-of-vowels can also be seen as two-letter English words. Of course, all of the above refers to accepted usage of American English. It's an obscure and counterintutive rule, and may not be followed in the UK or elsewhere inthe English-speaking world. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Apostrophe Question??? From: meself Date: 18 Feb 08 - 01:35 PM [Ebbie: I believe Dazbo was being witty ... ] |
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Subject: RE: BS: Apostrophe Question??? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 18 Feb 08 - 01:47 PM "hos" would be liable to mislead the reader, whereas "ho's" is clearer. But the normal way to avoid that would be to spell the plural "hoes". That makes for a potential ambiguity, but the context would reduce the likelihood of anyone thinking the word referred to garden implements. Better still, avoid the word entirely. If "ho" seen as an abbreviation for "whore" I think that since the "w" is silent anyway it's possible to justify not giving it an apostrophe, and a single apostrophe is sufficient to cover any number of omitted letters. But maybe the silent "w" is there in any case, and it really ought to be written - if it must be written - as "who' ", plural "who's"... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Apostrophe Question??? From: Peace Date: 18 Feb 08 - 01:52 PM It just struck me that there has never been a simple question on Mudcat that didn't go for at least a hundred posts. Gotta love this place. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Apostrophe Question??? From: Slag Date: 18 Feb 08 - 02:01 PM Ebbie, don't tell that to Dan Quayle! "PotatoEs" cost him an election to the presidency of the United States! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Apostrophe Question??? From: Peace Date: 18 Feb 08 - 02:05 PM Yeah. But what's all this talk about potatoes having i's? There are no i's in potatoes. Not even one. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Apostrophe Question??? From: Slag Date: 18 Feb 08 - 02:08 PM No, no Peace! There are no is in potatos, es there? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Apostrophe Question??? From: Peace Date: 18 Feb 08 - 02:14 PM No, there i's'n't. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Apostrophe Question??? From: autolycus Date: 18 Feb 08 - 02:46 PM i From: GUEST Date: 18 Feb 08 - 09:38 AM To those who think there should be no apostrophe in terms such as b's: read the following. Don't put two many as in "as." [unclear] Don't put two many a's in "as." [clear] How many is are there in "is?" [unclear] How many i's are there in "is?" [clear] Unfortunately - no, fortunately, GUEST omitted another possibility. Don't put too (!!!!!!!) many "a"s in "as." How many "i"s are there in "is"? Ivor PS. As for GUEST's, "Don't put two many......etc", I'll say no more. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Apostrophe Question??? From: Ebbie Date: 18 Feb 08 - 02:49 PM Sorry, Dazbo- my literal mind blazed again... A pedantical insert here: Slag, strictly speaking, Quayle didn't spell it that way. Instead, someone else had spelt the singular as 'potatoe' and, contrary to the student's rendition, Quayle insisted that it was correct. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Apostrophe Question??? From: Bill D Date: 18 Feb 08 - 02:53 PM here's looking at you the real thing!....eye think. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Apostrophe Question??? From: Rowan Date: 18 Feb 08 - 04:54 PM But maybe the silent "w" is there in any case, and it really ought to be written - if it must be written - as "who' ", plural "who's"... And then there's "who's" as a contraction of "who has". And, while Dazbo's assertion Only plurals ending in "s" and, for some reason, biblical characters have the possesive [sic] apostrophe at the end of the word may be correct in Dazbo's vicinity, other regions of English (such as Oz, especially in universities) routinely use the possessive apostrophe with no subsequent "s" for any word ending in "s". As PoppaGator intimated. Right on, Peace! Cheers, Rowan |
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Subject: RE: BS: Apostrophe Question??? From: Don Firth Date: 18 Feb 08 - 06:35 PM I have several style manuals, but I'm too danged lazy to go get them right now. I've always operated on the principle that, in case of doubt, it's best to go with whatever is the least ambiguous. If others understand what you're trying to communicate, mission accomplished. I have been accused of writing long sentences with no commas, sometimes running for half a page, then loading a double-barreled shotgun with commas, pointing it at the page, and letting fly with both barrels. . . . a vile slander! Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: Apostrophe Question??? From: KT Date: 18 Feb 08 - 07:32 PM not always, ebbie, sometimes the plural is spuds. no apostrophe, Bobert. My source...Mrs. Lynch - 6th grade English. "Grammarians may not like it but their subject includes the grey line of popular advance in which usage defines correctitude." Oh, you mean like, "Amos is like, Grammarians may not like it but their subject includes the grey line of popular advance in which usage defines correctitude." and I'm like, no that's not correct, and everyone else is like..... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Apostrophe Question??? From: GUEST,meself Date: 18 Feb 08 - 07:38 PM ' ... the plural "hoes". That makes for a potential ambiguity, but the context would reduce the likelihood of anyone thinking the word referred to garden implements.' Unfortunately, though, it would be the beginning of an endless string of tortured, tedious puns .... How about "hoze" - in keeping with the cavalier spelling habits of thoze gangstaz who graced us with the lovely term in the first plaze? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Apostrophe Question??? From: Bobert Date: 18 Feb 08 - 07:43 PM Well, well, well... I guess that I can now say that I was on the side the apostrophe... Two b's, danged it... So I showed this thread to the P-Vine and she pulled out the "Roger Clemen's Defense" in saying that I "mis-remembered" the discussion??? So this is my question. Why is it when a man get lucky enopugh to be right every 10 years or so we get the "Roger Clement's" thing thown on our victory??? Nevernmind... But I still loves the girl madly even if she's "lieing thru her teeth" on this one... (Real good, BOberdz.... Here you are crippled up and dependent on the P-Vine to keep yer useless butt from starving and yer talkin' like that about yer beautiful wife??? Man, geeze of pete...) I'm sorrty I'm right... I really am... I didn't intend to be right... It was an accident and I promise to never, ever be right again... I promise... Sniff... It was an accident... I should have been thinkin' of the consequences... Sho nuff should have... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Apostrophe Question??? From: Don Firth Date: 18 Feb 08 - 07:55 PM Isn't there something in the Constitution about "domestic tranquility?" Man, never ever make a thing with your lady about being right about something unless you enjoy sleeping on the couch! That's kinda basic. Don Firth P. S. And getting caught looking smug can send you out to sleep in the car. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Apostrophe Question??? From: KT Date: 18 Feb 08 - 07:56 PM But you weren't right. Just ask Mrs. Lynch. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Apostrophe Question??? From: Bobert Date: 18 Feb 08 - 08:10 PM Mrs. Lynch??? Shoot, her sister was my 3rd garde teacher, KayTee and let me tell ya' that them womenz were meaneer than an overflowin' catbox and so ugly that they'd make a freight train jump tracks and take a dirt road... Like, why was her name Mrs. Lynch, KTee??? Well don't hurt yer purdy head on this one... It was becuase she "lynched" the English language, that's why... And that is two ***g's*** in "language"... B;) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Apostrophe Question??? From: Uncle_DaveO Date: 18 Feb 08 - 08:45 PM "Bobert" contains a "b". Oh, and then there's another one! Dave Oesterreich |
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Subject: RE: BS: Apostrophe Question??? From: Bobert Date: 18 Feb 08 - 08:52 PM Chicken!!! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Apostrophe Question??? From: GUEST,leeneia Date: 18 Feb 08 - 08:54 PM Bobert, I'm glad you're feeling well enough to joke on the Mudcat after the disastrous massage. I am not teasing. I know a woman (in her mid-thirties) who suffered a stroke when a chiropractor twisted a vein in her neck. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Apostrophe Question??? From: Uncle_DaveO Date: 18 Feb 08 - 09:04 PM Poppagator had it right when he said: Strunk and whatzizname's "Elements of Style" probably will verify this; that's the main "rulebook" we used. Strunk & White, in The Elements of Style (a/k/a "The LITTLE Book") give a series of succinctly phrased rules. The VERY FIRST rule given is (fairly close to verbatim) as follows: "1. To form the plural of a singular noun, add apostrophe and S, regardless of the final letter. Thus, 'the witch's curse'" (and a few more examples). "Exceptions are such ancient names as "Jesus' teachings" and "Moses' laws." Even with the ancient names, S&W looked with favor on recasting the sentence to refer to "the teachings of Jesus" and "the laws of Moses". E. B. White, by the way, was seriously referred to as "The best writer in the English language." You're entitled to prefer some other writer, of course, but that's still a fast league. Dave Oesterreich |
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Subject: RE: BS: Apostrophe Question??? From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 18 Feb 08 - 09:29 PM Harbrace College Handbook Apostrophe 15b Use an apostrophe to mark omissions in contracted words or numerals. didn't he'll they're there's class of '76 15c Use the apostrophe ans s to form the plural of lower case letters and of abbreviations followed by periods. When needed to prevent confusion, use the apostrophe aans s to form the plural of capital letters, of symbols, of abbreviations not followed by periods, and of words referred to as words. Examples: His a's look like o's (The 's is not italicized or underlined). Over half of the PhD.'s were still looking for desirable positions. Her I's are illegible, and her miss's appear to be mess's. Either 's or s may be used to form such plurals as the following: the 1970's or the 1970s two B's or two Bs her and's or her ands his 7's or his 7s the &'s or the &s the VFW's or the VFWs 15d Do not use the apostrophe with the pronouns his, hers, its, ours, theirs, or whose or with plural nouns not in the possessive case. Some examples from 15a; not too many mistakes made here: Al's and Sue's cars Al and Sue's car the doctor's and the dentist's offices someone else's turn men's clothing children's rights everybody's friend a girls' school Keats's poetry or Keats' poetry Them's the 'merican recommendations. The Chicago, I believe, is the same, but one of my offspring done stole my copy. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Apostrophe Question??? From: katlaughing Date: 18 Feb 08 - 10:22 PM The Chicago Manual of Style is available online, for a fee, but it also has some free things you can look up. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Apostrophe Question??? From: BK Lick Date: 19 Feb 08 - 12:13 AM The online CMOS has this to say about the use of apostrophes to form plurals: Plurals almost never take an apostrophe. Chicago style uses an apostrophe for the plural of lowercase single letters (x's and o's), but for little else (for instance, we write "dos and don'ts"). Of course, if you come across a plural that would be misunderstood without an apostrophe, you should use one: for instance, in A's and B's, the first term would be mistaken for "As" without an apostrophe, and the second term uses the apostrophe because it would look inconsistent to style them in different ways. Please see CMOS 7.16 and 7.63–65 for more examples and exceptions. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Apostrophe Question??? From: Stilly River Sage Date: 19 Feb 08 - 01:19 AM I'm skipping straight to the bottom. I can't believe this has gone for 78 (now 79) posts. Which is correct? 1. There are 2 b's in Bobert. or... 2. There are 2 bs is Bobert. Bs. The apostrophe is possessive in that position, it isn't used to show plural. But when in doubt, rewrite the sentence. The letter B appears twice in "Bobert." See how easy that is? SRS (one of many Mudcat English majors) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Apostrophe Question??? From: autolycus Date: 19 Feb 08 - 01:47 AM Bobert, the reason is that the woman always has the last word in an argument. If the man says something after that, well that's a new argument. And women are all princesses. Ivor |
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Subject: RE: BS: Apostrophe Question??? From: GUEST,Dazbo at work Date: 19 Feb 08 - 03:53 AM So two or more people called Don Imu made a speach about hos? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Apostrophe Question??? From: GUEST,PMB Date: 19 Feb 08 - 05:04 AM SRS, I would have expected you to be in the US Army, but I can imagine you now, dining with scarlet majors at the base, and speeding glum heroes up the line to death.... The world would be a much safer place if the possessive apostrophe were abolished completely. It adds no information, and on the rare occasions when context does not completely specify whether possessive or plural, it might give a hint to the author that there is a style problem. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Apostrophe Question??? From: TheSnail Date: 19 Feb 08 - 05:55 AM I think SRS has cut to the point. Letters are not words so you can't use the normal rules of grammar to make their plurals. You have already broken the rules so what you do after that doesn't really matter. The same applies to numbers but, fortunately, there are words for the numbers so you can write "all at sixes and sevens" instead of "all at 6s and 7s". I don't think there are any agreed words for the letters - Aye, Bee, See, Dee... How would you spell the word for the letter W? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Apostrophe Question??? From: Mr Happy Date: 19 Feb 08 - 06:01 AM Doubleyou? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Apostrophe Question??? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 19 Feb 08 - 06:05 AM Bernard Shaw hated the apostrophe, and used to insist his writing were printed without it. I suspect that in fact he didn't actually care much, but enjoyed teasing people who get passionate about this kind of thing. I suspect that the grocer's apostrophe - "Apple's 50p" - is often intentional. It attracts the attention of pedantic passers by, who may then may possibly make a purchase. "The world would be a much safer place if the possessive apostrophe were abolished completely." Yeah, it's really very dangerous isn't it? It could put your eye out if you aren't careful... "It adds no information," If correctly placed it does in fact provide extra information. For example, "the girl's room" means something different from "the girls' room". |
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Subject: RE: BS: Apostrophe Question??? From: GUEST,PMB Date: 19 Feb 08 - 06:20 AM If the distinction is worth making, McG, it has to work all the time. In speech as well as in writing. Since "girl's" is pronounced the same as "girls'", any distinction is lost the moment you open your mouth. Unless of course you say "girlses". |
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Subject: RE: BS: Apostrophe Question??? From: Schantieman Date: 19 Feb 08 - 06:52 AM McG, I'm a pedantic passer-by and I make a point of NOT buying from a shop that can't advertise its wares correctly. In fact I'm part of Lynee Truss's punctuation police: only the other day I had to remove and apostrophe from "Fried egg's" add one to "Ladies Thermals" ! Incidentally, does anyone know who led the Pedants' Revolt? . . . . . Which Tyler. I'll get my thermals.... S |
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Subject: RE: BS: Apostrophe Question??? From: Schantieman Date: 19 Feb 08 - 06:53 AM ...er.... whoops! The "and" got moved accidentally there. Perhaps the typogriffs are working...? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Apostrophe Question??? From: Stilly River Sage Date: 19 Feb 08 - 10:55 AM An English professor of mine told us one day as we struggled with punctuation and tenses that grammar is a form of manners. We can still manage to make ourselves understood without apostrophes and with dangling participles. Unless you're an attorney drafting a legal document, where every word, dot, and line is crucial in its place, it probably doesn't matter. I don't disagree with some of the others; BWL using quotes, or the Chicago manual's recommendation of judicial apostrophe application (when a different word would appear without it, such as As vs. A's.) There is more than one way to do it. SRS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Apostrophe Question??? From: bobad Date: 19 Feb 08 - 11:04 AM As an aside, did you know that apostrophes are illegal on public signs in Quebec? Strange, but true, it cost this guy $786. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Apostrophe Question??? From: Stilly River Sage Date: 19 Feb 08 - 11:53 AM Geez. There really are language police . . . er, police de langue. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Apostrophe Question??? From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 19 Feb 08 - 12:10 PM Only in Quebéc, you say? Pity. Wading through the posts here, it is obvious that language police are needed. Uniformity for all! bobad, go directly to jail for leaving off the acute accent in Quebéc. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Apostrophe Question??? From: BK Lick Date: 19 Feb 08 - 12:35 PM Québec |
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Subject: RE: BS: Apostrophe Question??? From: Peace Date: 19 Feb 08 - 12:35 PM You'll have to join him in the cell, Q. The accent aigu goes over the first 'e' in Quebec. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Apostrophe Question??? From: Peace Date: 19 Feb 08 - 12:36 PM OOP'S. S'orry, BK. Cro's's po'sted. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Apostrophe Question??? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 19 Feb 08 - 12:43 PM "If the distinction is worth making, McG, it has to work all the time. In speech as well as in writing. " Why? Speaking and writing are different forms of communication, with all kinds of different conventions. For example you can't ask a written sentence to clarify an ambiguity. ............... Never get tempted to go into the shop and point out the solecism to the shopkeeper, Schantieman. Maybe in the course of making a purchase - that's how it works. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Apostrophe Question??? From: Stilly River Sage Date: 19 Feb 08 - 01:03 PM Confession time: I have a Sharpie in my backpack, and I know how to use it. For example, the drive through windows at various North Texas Wendy's restaurants owned by the same franchise, had signs that said "Checks Not Excepted." Strictly speaking, this means THEY TAKE ALL CHECKS. Of course, you couldn't make that clear to the clerks or the managers if you took the time to mention it (I tried a couple of times). This is a job for Garrison Keillor's Professional Organization of English Majors (POEM). (He did a skit in a drive through window on one program.) So I would open my door in line and do a quick cross out of the "Ex" part and write over it "Ac." After I'd hit a half-dozen Wendy's this way they all finally disappeared. :) Last week's message: Garrison Keillor: ...after this message from the Professional Organization of English Majors. The number of English Majors is in decline in this country. You may have sensed that already. Right now there is only one English major for every 75 people, and by 2015 we face a shortage of sensibility that makes it unlikely that America can keep up its high production of memoirs. Let's not waste our English major resources on technical writing. English is not a good language for technical writing. Urdu is much better. Tim Russell: (URDU) Your chances of comprehension are much greater with Urdu. And let's not waste English majors on copy editing. The best copy editors are graduates of criminal justice programs, retired bounty hunters TR: Look at this. Pathetic. Do you even know what a gerund is? Do you? GK: So what's a good job for an English major? (SIZZLING) (TABLEWARE) TR: You want fries with that? GK: A career in the food services industry gives you time to think. It gets you away from your computer, and best of all it doesn't require you to write so you save your literary fire for your novel or play. TR: (DRAMATIC, TYPING) Her smile was like the moon-bright, but melancholy. If you looked closely at it, you could see a man's face. GK: Let somebody else copy edit this stuff. As an English Major, this is not your job. Your job is to flip burgers, until your book deal comes through. And that's ok. TR (BUSH): As President I have come to regret my decision not to major in English which would have been more useful to me than the type of education that in fact I did get at the time. And I regret my decision to get a job as The Decider. Sometimes, when I drop by the White House kitchen and see someone fixing up a grilled cheese and an order of fries, I think to myself: I coulda been good at that. And I woulda had more time to work on my stories and make em more believable than they are at the present time. ...a message from the Professional Organization of English Majors. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Apostrophe Question??? From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 19 Feb 08 - 02:19 PM Oh, well. I guess I should stay out of Québec. They might force me to eat poutine. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Apostrophe Question??? From: Peace Date: 19 Feb 08 - 03:29 PM NO. Anything but that. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Apostrophe Question??? From: bobad Date: 19 Feb 08 - 03:41 PM Worse than that Q - eat poutine and listen to Céline. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Apostrophe Question??? From: bobad Date: 19 Feb 08 - 03:50 PM BTW Q, Quebec is the English spelling of Québec, it is pronounced Kweebeck. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Apostrophe Question??? From: Uncle_DaveO Date: 19 Feb 08 - 03:53 PM Ooooh, boy! Am I embarrassed! I gave what was intended to the the sage advice of Strunk & White in The Elements of Style, but I messed it up, BUT GOOD! ------------ Correcting it: "1. To form the Even with the ancient names, S&W looked with favor on recasting the sentence to refer to "the teachings of Jesus" and "the laws of Moses". ------------ Mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa! Dave Oesterreich |
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Subject: RE: BS: Apostrophe Question??? From: Don Firth Date: 19 Feb 08 - 04:19 PM Lynne Truss's books on punctuation have become best-sellers, and for good reason. In addition to the books being highly instructive, the lady is a riot! Browse. Don Firth P. S. She's British, but she covers American punctuation practices (or lack thereof) as well. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Apostrophe Question??? From: Rowan Date: 19 Feb 08 - 04:49 PM Mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa! I'm pretty sure Latin doesn't use apostrophes, Dave. And, while I sure do appreciate all the advice from Funk & whoozit and the CSM, down here we've got our own style manuals to ignore; being provincials we're rather familiar with hegemonies from various versions of imperial English, which sometimes helps us to communicate effectively with the other hemisphere. Cheers, Rowan |
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Subject: RE: BS: Apostrophe Question??? From: GUEST,weerover Date: 19 Feb 08 - 04:57 PM According to several authorities, there is one occasion when an apostrophe is put before a pluralising "s", and that is with the word "do", in the UK usage as a noun meaning a social gathering, as it would otherwise look a bit weird. This works for me (a high school teacher of English), and by extension I suppose it should apply also to "hairdo". wr |
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Subject: RE: BS: Apostrophe Question??? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 19 Feb 08 - 05:01 PM "When Jones's Ale was new", not "When Jones' Ale was new". And I dislike the possessive form used in "Jesus' ". I prefer either "Jesus's", or better "of Jesus". |
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Subject: RE: BS: Apostrophe Question??? From: Rowan Date: 19 Feb 08 - 05:41 PM Surely "When Jones's Ale was new", not "When Jones' Ale was new" speaks for the song being learned (and transmitted) in the aural tradition rather than the written one. For most of us, I suspect our learning about Jesus' alleged attributes was originally via written texts, which is why that usage is regarded as "correct". You and others are quite empirically correct in saying that our verbal use of language is different from our written use and your post is another specific example. Cheers, Rowan |
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Subject: RE: BS: Apostrophe Question??? From: Bobert Date: 19 Feb 08 - 06:09 PM Holy cow pies, Bobert... You done set off a fire storm here... Listen, folks... Everyone just lay down yer Sharpies, step back, take a deep breath and know that this too shall pass... I mean, it ain't the end of the world, is it??? (Above post apostrophe free...) B;) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Apostrophe Question??? From: Peace Date: 19 Feb 08 - 06:17 PM WRONG, WRONG, WRONG! 'APOSTROPHE A direct and explicit address either to an absent person or to an abstract or non-human entity. Many odes contain such an address. Example: Keats begins "Ode on a Grecian Urn" by apostrophizing the urn – "Thou still unravished bride of quietness. . ." ' HA! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Apostrophe Question??? From: Don Firth Date: 19 Feb 08 - 06:56 PM The problem with "Jesus's" is that you have to be sure you know when to quite. "Jesus's's's's's'. . . ." Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: Apostrophe Question??? From: Peace Date: 19 Feb 08 - 07:56 PM Found by EmmaB. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Apostrophe Question??? From: Uncle_DaveO Date: 19 Feb 08 - 08:01 PM Bobert, you asked, I mean, it ain't the end of the world, is it??? And then commented, (Above post apostrophe free...) And the answer to each of those is, "No, it ain't." Dave Oesterreich |
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Subject: RE: BS: Apostrophe Question??? From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 19 Feb 08 - 08:06 PM weerover- Do, meaning a party, show, military engagement, etc. is heard in America as well as in UK. The usage was noted in 1824, J. Briggs in "Remains." (OED) Also spelt (spelled) doe and doo. I guess do's does it for the pl. Indeed troublesome. "Ode on a Grecian Urn." Apostrophizing rhetorically has always boggled my mind. English, she is most peculiar! The poem here: http://www.bartleby.com/101/625.html |
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Subject: RE: BS: Apostrophe Question??? From: Peace Date: 19 Feb 08 - 08:08 PM The wind blew over my house. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Apostrophe Question??? From: Mr Happy Date: 20 Feb 08 - 06:17 AM 'she blew my nose & then she blew my mind?' |
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Subject: RE: BS: Apostrophe Question??? From: autolycus Date: 20 Feb 08 - 11:20 AM btw, I read once that someone was put to death by the state because of an erroneously-placed comma. Don't remember the details. Ivor |
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Subject: RE: BS: Apostrophe Question??? From: Peace Date: 20 Feb 08 - 01:59 PM THE FATAL COMMA Czarina Maria Fyodorovna once saved the life of a man by transposing a single comma in a warrant signed by her husband, Alexander III, which exiled a criminal to imprisonment and death in Siberia. On the bottom of the warrant the czar had written: `Pardon impossible, to be sent to Siberia.' The czarina changed the punctuation so that her husband's instructions read: `Pardon, impossible to be sent to Siberia.' The man was set free. THE BLASPHEMOUS COMMA In several editions of the King James Bible, Luke 23:32 is changed entirely by the absence of a comma. In the passage that describes the other men crucified with Christ, the erroneous editions read: `And there were also two other malefactors.' Instead of counting Christ as a malefactor, the passage should read: `And there were also two other, malefactors.' THE MILLION-DOLLAR COMMA The US government lost at least a million dollars through the slip of a comma. In the tariff act passed on June 6, 1872, a list of duty-free items included: `Fruit plants, tropical and semitropical'. A government clerk accidentally altered the line to read: `Fruit, plants tropical and semitropical'. Importers successfully contended that the passage, as written, exempted all tropical and semitropical plants from duty fees. This cost the US a fortune until May 9, 1874, when the passage was amended to plug the hole. From the www. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Apostrophe Question??? From: Peace Date: 20 Feb 08 - 02:02 PM And having no other place to put this (I heard that!), here y'all go. AGLET - The plain or ornamental covering on the end of a shoelace. ARMSAYE - The armhole in clothing. CHANKING - Spat-out food, such as rinds or pits. COLUMELLA NASI - The bottom part of the nose between the nostrils. DRAGÉES - Small beadlike pieces of candy, usually silver-coloured, used for decorating cookies, cakes and sundaes. FEAT - A dangling curl of hair. FERRULE - The metal band on a pencil that holds the eraser in place. HARP - The small metal hoop that supports a lampshade. HEMIDEMISEMIQUAVER - A 64th note. (A 32nd is a demisemiquaver, and a 16th note is a semiquaver.) JARNS, NITTLES, GRAWLIX, and QUIMP - Various squiggles used to denote cussing in comic books. KEEPER - The loop on a belt that keeps the end in place after it has passed through the buckle. KICK or PUNT - The indentation at the bottom of some wine bottles. It gives added strength to the bottle but lessens its holding capacity. LIRIPIPE - The long tail on a graduate's academic hood. MINIMUS - The little finger or toe. NEF - An ornamental stand in the shape of a ship. OBDORMITION - The numbness caused by pressure on a nerve; when a limb is `asleep'. OCTOTHORPE - The symbol `#' on a telephone handset. Bell Labs' engineer Don Macpherson created the word in the 1960s by combining octo-, as in eight, with the name of one of his favourite athletes, 1912 Olympic decathlon champion Jim Thorpe. OPHRYON - The space between the eyebrows on a line with the top of the eye sockets. PEEN - The end of a hammer head opposite the striking face. PHOSPHENES - The lights you see when you close your eyes hard. Technically the luminous impressions are due to the excitation of the retina caused by pressure on the eyeball. PURLICUE - The space between the thumb and extended forefinger. RASCETA - Creases on the inside of the wrist. ROWEL - The revolving star on the back of a cowboy's spurs. SADDLE - The rounded part on the top of a matchbook. SCROOP - The rustle of silk. SNORKEL BOX - A mailbox with a protruding receiver to allow people to deposit mail without leaving their cars. SPRAINTS - Otter dung. TANG - The projecting prong on a tool or instrument. WAMBLE - Stomach rumbling. ZARF - A holder for a handleless coffee cup. from the www |
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Subject: RE: BS: Apostrophe Question??? From: Amos Date: 20 Feb 08 - 02:11 PM AN awesome feat, Peace. I only knew three of those words by sight. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Apostrophe Question??? From: Peace Date: 20 Feb 08 - 02:20 PM I didn't know any. Always called those things 'things'. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Apostrophe Question??? From: Peace Date: 20 Feb 08 - 02:55 PM SPRAINTS Who knew? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Apostrophe Question??? From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 20 Feb 08 - 04:24 PM Don't confuse a thing with a thingamajig. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Apostrophe Question??? From: Peace Date: 20 Feb 08 - 04:29 PM Darn good point, Q. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Apostrophe Question??? From: autolycus Date: 20 Feb 08 - 05:12 PM Or with a whadjamacallit. Ivor |
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Subject: RE: BS: Apostrophe Question??? From: JohnInKansas Date: 22 Feb 08 - 04:31 AM But no one has mentioned the big apostrophe problem: Computers still confused by the apostrophe (and the $@#!% Irish) Simple punctuation mark can cause complex problems By Sean ODriscoll The Associated Press updated 7:07 p.m. CT, Thurs., Feb. 21, 2008 NEW YORK - It can stop you from voting, destroy your dental appointments, make it difficult to rent a car or book a flight, even interfere with your college exams. More than 50 years into the Information Age, computers are still getting confused by the apostrophe. It's a problem familiar to O'Connors, D'Angelos, N'Dours and D'Artagnans across America. When Niall O'Dowd tried to book a flight to Atlanta earlier this year, the computer system refused to recognize his name. The editor of the Irish Voice newspaper could book the flight only by giving up his national identity. "I dropped the apostrophe and ran my name as 'ODowd,'" he said. It's not just the bad luck o' the Irish. French, Italian and African names with apostrophes can befuddle computer systems, too. So can Arab names with hyphens, and Dutch surnames with "van" and a space in them. Michael Rais, director of software development at Permission Data, an online marketing company in New York, said the problem is sloppy programming. "It's standard shortsightedness," he said. "Most programs set a rule for first name and last name. They don't think of foreign-sounding names." The trouble can happen in two ways, according to Rais. One: Online forms typically have a filter that looks for unfamiliar terms that might be put in by mistake or as a joke. A bad computer system will not be able to handle an apostrophe, a hyphen or a gap in a last name and will block it immediately. Two: Even if the computer system is sophisticated enough to welcome an O'Brien or Al-Kurd, the name must be stored in the database, where a hyphen or apostrophe is often mistaken for a piece of computer code, corrupting the system. That's what happened during the Michigan caucus in 2004, when thousands of O'Connors, Al-Husseins, Van Kemps and others who went to the polls didn't have their votes counted. "It was a real slapped-together computer system the party put together and a lot of people were left out who were registered to vote, it was a real pity," said Michigan political consultant Mark Grebner. In this year's primaries, the system worked much better, according to the Michigan Democratic Party. There have been isolated reports of problems elsewhere, but nothing on the scale of Michigan. Still, an apostrophe, hyphen or space can interfere with medical and dental records, gym memberships, online searches or school registration. Dutch-American proofreader Jessica van Campen has seen her name listed as Jessica Vancampen, Jessica Van, Jessicavan Campen, Jessica Campen and Jessican Kampen by uncertain computer systems. When she went to her finals in college, she was listed under Campen and was told Jessica Van Campen had dropped out of the course. "It was another moment of panic," she said. All of this confusion has prompted some people to surrender to technology. Iraqi immigrant Lina Alathari was once known as Lina Al-Athari, but dropped the hyphen in America. "There is no pronunciation difference, so I'm fine with it," she said. Erin Carney D'Angelo, a lawyer in New York, was born apostrophe-free, but took one on when she married her Italian-American husband. But "he told me to drop the apostrophe when filling out forms so to computers I'm just a 'Dangelo,'" she said. The problem is difficult to correct because computer systems have many different ways of recognizing names, Rais said. "It depends on the form filters and it depends on the database program," he said. "Basically, there are a lot of programmers out there who forget that a growing portion of the American public are not called John Smith or Mary White." The Irish apostrophe began with the British, who put it there because they believed the O looked odd without a link to the rest of the name. Many Gaelic speakers in Ireland refuse to carry an apostrophe, considering it a vestige of colonial days. (?) "Maybe that's the solution," said O'Dowd, who just last week was rejected by an online alarm clock service. "Maybe we should just drop the apostrophe altogether, not just as a nationalist statement but because I'd like my alarm call to work in the morning." For my part, I've already thrown off my apostrophe. From now on I am Sean ODriscoll. ©2008 The Associated Press. [Yes, it's too long; but the thread was off the page so it's time to inject some politics.] John |
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Subject: RE: BS: Apostrophe Question??? From: autolycus Date: 22 Feb 08 - 12:41 PM I think, John, you slightly or nearly let the programmers off the hook when you talk about the computing systems getting confused. it's the programmers. Just like I've had an idea for how to teach computing easier. I asked my computer teacher why it wasn't already being done and told that it depends whether the programmer thinks of it, or understands the needs of students, or can be bothered. Ivor |
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Subject: RE: BS: Apostrophe Question??? From: Stilly River Sage Date: 22 Feb 08 - 12:54 PM I knew NINE of the terms on Peace's list. I guess that says I spent too much time reading murder mysteries and historical novels. I'm reminded of some of the minutia you pick up in that context. Some also come from work. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Apostrophe Question??? From: Bill D Date: 22 Feb 08 - 01:03 PM Peace, you left out FORNIX..."a prominent bundle of axons interconnecting ipsilateral (i.e. same side) regions of certain limbic parts of the forebrain." PHILTRUM... (Greek philtron, from philein, "to love; to kiss"), also known as the infranasal depression, is the vertical groove in the upper lip, formed where the nasomedial and maxillary processes meet during embryonic development." The philtrum allows humans to express a much larger range of lip motions than would otherwise be possible, which enhances vocal and non-verbal communication. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Apostrophe Question??? From: Peace Date: 22 Feb 08 - 01:06 PM Good lord, Bill. I didn't know people could even SAY things like that in public . . . . |
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Subject: RE: BS: Apostrophe Question??? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 22 Feb 08 - 01:22 PM Maybe it really should be O'Bama... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Apostrophe Question??? From: Bill D Date: 22 Feb 08 - 01:25 PM You mean, of the Black Irish? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Apostrophe Question??? From: bobad Date: 22 Feb 08 - 01:29 PM Your philtrum and ophryon make my fornix wamble, baby. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Apostrophe Question??? From: GUEST,weerover Date: 22 Feb 08 - 03:00 PM To go along with SPRAINTS above: SCUMBER - animal dung, especially dog or fox SHARN - cow dung wr |
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Subject: RE: BS: Apostrophe Question??? From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 22 Feb 08 - 03:04 PM I knew a Hispanic family with the surname de la O- they were always bothered with people demanding to know O-what? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Apostrophe Question??? From: Amos Date: 22 Feb 08 - 03:12 PM That gives a whole new meaning to the heroine's name "Rosasharn" in "Grapes of Wrath", eh? A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Apostrophe Question??? From: GUEST,leeneia Date: 22 Feb 08 - 05:46 PM One comment on your list, Peace: I sew clothes and in the books the hole which accepts a sleeve is not an ARMSAYE, it's an armscye. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Apostrophe Question??? From: GUEST,TIA Date: 22 Feb 08 - 05:46 PM If you want a real grammar headache, try punctuating this sentence properly. If you do, it is, in fact, grammatically correct. I will spot you one period, and one apostrophe. John where Jim had had had had had had had had had had had the teacher's approval. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Apostrophe Question??? From: Peace Date: 22 Feb 08 - 05:52 PM OK. However, that wasn't my list, fyi. It is from the www somewhere. Not that I wouldn't have made that mistake all by myself. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Apostrophe Question??? From: Peace Date: 22 Feb 08 - 05:53 PM I know that one, TIA. Good luck to all. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Apostrophe Question??? From: autolycus Date: 22 Feb 08 - 06:04 PM Me.too - ditto. btw, you can lengthen the "had"s by one if it's not Jim but Hadley - Had, for short. Ivor |
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Subject: RE: BS: Apostrophe Question??? From: Bill D Date: 22 Feb 08 - 06:31 PM It's a stupid sentence, no matter what the technical answer. Try to imagine anyone actually saying it. (Who, me? Testy today? Nawwwww..) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Apostrophe Question??? From: Rowan Date: 22 Feb 08 - 08:50 PM "It's standard shortsightedness," he said. "Most programs set a rule for first name and last name. They don't think of foreign-sounding names." And the shortsightedness predated computers by a long chalk. Among my ancestors there's a big mob, from France, called de Rohan but, by the time (in the 19th century) the emigrator to Australia had had his details recorded in the system, he was always listed as "Drohan". Cheers, Rowan |
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Subject: RE: BS: Apostrophe Question??? From: JohnInKansas Date: 23 Feb 08 - 12:07 AM I think, John, you ... RUDE! INSULTING! CRASS! CHILDISH! [The thread's been a little dull, lets have a bit of an uproar.] I believe, if you read the article, you would have noted that I DID NOT WRITE IT. I directed your attention to someone else's opinion, without indicating in any way that I shared that particular point of view. [must be one of those flamers ....] ;>} John |
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Subject: RE: BS: Apostrophe Question??? From: autolycus Date: 23 Feb 08 - 08:00 AM My humble apologies, John. very careless of me. haven't been feeling myself lately. Or anyone else. Might help explain it. :-) Ivor |
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Subject: RE: BS: Apostrophe Question??? From: JohnInKansas Date: 23 Feb 08 - 09:54 AM I'll accept your second excuse as an ameliorating circumstance meriting tolerance of a small lapse. Not a thing to worry about. But is your real name "Naught"-O-Lycus? - as in "0'O'Lycus"? Or maybe it was "Aught-O-Lycus" which would be ?'O'Lycus? Would a double apostrophe be a prepostrophus? John |
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Subject: RE: BS: Apostrophe Question??? From: autolycus Date: 23 Feb 08 - 10:21 AM Ta. My real name aut to be o lycus, cept I have no known Irish in me. Tho' I like the very occasional Bailey's. My real name is Ivor (and not even Iv o r.) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Apostrophe Question??? From: Megan L Date: 23 Feb 08 - 10:30 AM Drat I thought the real name was Aught to lie and cuss |
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Subject: RE: BS: Apostrophe Question??? From: Bill D Date: 23 Feb 08 - 11:01 AM ..and is there a manual lycus? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Apostrophe Question??? From: dick greenhaus Date: 23 Feb 08 - 09:00 PM After wading through this thread, I'm still not sure how many bs in Bobert, but I'm positive that there's a load of BS amongst the posters. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Apostrophe Question??? From: autolycus Date: 24 Feb 08 - 02:45 AM Interesting,dick. Fritz Perls who restarted the Gestalt therapy I do, claimed that 90% of what anybody says is BS. Which is why he paid loads more attention, (as I do) to the other things going on apart from what the person says. Ivor (who clearly aut to be called something else.) |
