BS: Is Prostitution just women...........;

Subject: BS: Is Prostitution just women...........;
From: Big Mick
Date: 11 Mar 08 - 10:28 PM

....exercising power? Or is it those that seek to make money by exploiting women? Are bodies just commodities? Is a woman pimp on higher moral ground than a man pimp?

I ask based on some assertions, or implications, passed by a poster in another thread. I would love to hear women's views primarily in this thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution just women...........;
From: Little Hawk
Date: 11 Mar 08 - 11:04 PM

Yeesh!!! Hell of a big subject there, Mick.

Prostitution is a whole lot of different things, but I don't think I've got the endurance to talk about it in depth right now. Good luck with the discussion.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution just women...........;
From: number 6
Date: 11 Mar 08 - 11:37 PM

A lot of it was discussed in this earlier thread ...

prostitution

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution just women...........;
From: Big Mick
Date: 11 Mar 08 - 11:45 PM

Yeah, biLL but that is mostly men. I would like to hear from women. Harpgirl, in another thread, suggested that $5000 prostitutes represented some kind of powerful woman exercising control over men. This puzzled me, as I have always looked at prostitution as men using women i.e. pimps are usually men, or madames are women who make money off of other women being used by men.

I am really interested in hearing from women on this topic, not men. It is a chance to sit quietly and learn something.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution just women...........;
From: Little Hawk
Date: 11 Mar 08 - 11:50 PM

"It is a chance to sit quietly and learn something."

"MMMFTT! BLFFFT! GNFPPPT!" (the sound of fifty very opinionated Mudcat men who have the answer to ABSOLUTELY EVERYTHING being forcibly stifled by fifty well-paid hired gorillas while the discussion proceeds and the women have their say....)

Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution just women...........;
From: number 6
Date: 11 Mar 08 - 11:50 PM

I'll be watching this thread also Mick. I see your point. It's a good one.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution just women...........;
From: katlaughing
Date: 12 Mar 08 - 12:37 AM

Because of the risk involved, no matter the amount paid, I'd say, initially, that it is the "market" which controls women. Ever read Happy Hooker? She commanded large amounts of money, but was still not safe, no matter what she did. Even with bodyguards, pimps, servants, whatever, when it comes down to the prostitute and the "john" there is so much risk that I don't believe most women can control.

I used to think that it could be a power thing, women over men, esp. in the high-priced arena, but there is too much background stuff, i.e. a pimp to be paid, a protection racket, etc. (not sure if there IS a mafia involved in this anymore.) Of course, the high-priced prostitute could do some damage with disclosure and that might give her some kind of power over her clients, but if she started playing that kind of game, one of them might pop her OR she'd lose all of her clients. She is selling not only her body, but also discretion no matter what kind of treatment they mete out for what price. She can control the type of clients by pricing herself high, but some of them can be just as dangerous or kinky, sometimes I think they are even more so if they are wealthy and can buy the discretion etc. they crave. Not sure if I am making sense here. It's a subject I studied a lot, years ago. Remember ERA?:-)

kat

Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution just women...........;
From: Amergin
Date: 12 Mar 08 - 12:47 AM

Was this a professional interest that you had in that subject, Kat? ;)

I think the women are exploited no matter how much they charge for the services....the women doing the work see little of the money they earn....most of it goes to the pimp or madame....just like the common worker who makes all the money for their fat boss...and yet sees so little of it.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution just women...........;
From: Big Mick
Date: 12 Mar 08 - 12:58 AM

Nathan,..... looking for the women's views here.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution just women...........;
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 12 Mar 08 - 12:59 AM

My response is to consider the film versions of the life that made an impression on me. It either involved the central figure or a major plot point shifted around a prostitute or someone forced into that role.

Klute

Nuts

Monster

Taxi Driver

Pretty Woman

Pretty Baby

Elmer Gantry

There are also many stories that have been filmed that depict women forced into marriages or relationships they would not choose for themselves. What Margo St. James of COYOTE (Call of Your Old Tired Ethics) would suggest is the prostitution end of marriage. She also suggested that wives would prostitute themselves for a new toaster, so I don't take every word of hers as gospel, but she made points worth considering when I heard her lecture in the early 1970s.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution just women...........;
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 12 Mar 08 - 01:05 AM

I should have noted the irony of such a list is that the film that is farthest from reality yet seen by most people is probably Pretty Woman. Most hookers don't go away from a job knowing which fork to use for their salad course.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution just women...........;
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 12 Mar 08 - 01:31 AM

A fairly recent exposition of the "sex is power" notion can be seen in a pretty "gentle" article at:

Sexiness = power in porn-driven culture: Does the trend build confidence in young women — or diminish it?

A "cultural view" from the US:

Last Mustang Ranch building destroyed: Blaze was part of firefighting training

Just to get you in the mood:

German Culture: The Sex Industry & Prostitution in Germany: Robert Easton: It is estimated that 1.2 million German men use prostitutes each year, and the industry has an annual turnover of US$1.6 billion. Prostitution was legalised in Germany in 2002

U.K. cops make 2nd arrest in prostitute killings

India minister says child labor issue overblown

conviction of three Bosnian Serbs: of crimes against humanity in the first war-time sex enslavement case at an international court.

of Women Trafficked for Prostitution During World Cup Games (Word doc)

(Lots of sites with applicable stories have "expired." The above are just remnants.)

Separating the issues of prostitution from the more general issue of slavery ignores the widespread prevalence of the numerous ways in which people throughout the world, including in our own neighborhoods, are forced to live, without choice, under the control of others.

The evil isn't necessarily in the act of prostitution. The evil is that any one is forced to do anything not of their choosing and without being free to leave. Unfortunately, in and out of prostitution circles, that evil is, apparently, quite common.

John

Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution just women...........;
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Mar 08 - 01:45 AM

Just a brief comment or two. I found "Pretty Woman" to be probably the most sickening movie I ever saw in my life. It actually made me feel physically ill watching it, that's how much whatever the heck it was putting across bothered me. The whole story just made my flesh crawl. "Klute", on the other hand, was a pretty good movie, and "Monster" was an absolutely extraordinary film...although terribly, terribly depressing.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution just women...........;
From: Slag
Date: 12 Mar 08 - 02:15 AM

No! Prostitution is the essence of all politics. It is compromising your beliefs, morality, anything considered to be sacred. It is selling out for the almighty, or should I say "once" mighty dollar?!

Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution just women...........;
From: akenaton
Date: 12 Mar 08 - 04:13 AM

In the UK, most street workers are drug addicts working to pay dealers, loan sharks, and to sustain their habit. Many are HIV positive.
None do it to gain a "feeling of power over men". It is simply short term SURVIVAL.

"High class prostitution" as a lifestyle is a complete myth.
It is Capitalism in the raw.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution just women...........;
From: GUEST,Dáithí
Date: 12 Mar 08 - 05:44 AM

Don't most of the issues that kat and other have discussed here stem from the fact that prostituition is illegal in most places?

It certainly can never be abolished -we know what happens with prohibition - and prostitution has been around a long, long time. So, it seems to me that men having casual sex with women is a natural part of human make-up. Why therefore outlaw this?
why should the state dictate to men and women what they can do with their own bodies, in private? (yes, of course, consent is the prerequisite - otherwise it's rape).

Imagine a society where there was a mature and full acceptance of human sexuality - based on consenting adults' views.

Wouldn't this remove the stigma, and the pimps, sordid exploitation, human trafficking and all that goes with that?

(While we're at it, can't we do the same for drugs, too? This needs controlling and managing, not banning.)

Just a few thoughts from an old libertarian..don't shoot!
D

Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution just women...........;
From: SINSULL
Date: 12 Mar 08 - 08:05 AM

The only men I have known who admitted to using prostitutes were bullies who chose the nastiest woman they could find so that they could ridicule and abuse her. The only prostitutes I have known have been drug addicts (male and femaile) who would do anything for their next fix. The former were angry pathetic corporate game types who treated their wives as badly as did they did the prostitutes. The latter, just burned out hulks.

One who particularly offended me was a man who bragged to anyone who would listen how he took his son to a whore house for his 16th birthday so that his first time would be done "right". His wife would smile indulgently while his son sat there caught between embarrassment and confusion. A pathetic display.

Since sex is available free everywhere I can not imagine what motivates a man to pay for it. My intuition tells me power but I honestly don't know.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution just women...........;
From: jacqui.c
Date: 12 Mar 08 - 08:56 AM

I agree that prostitution should be legalised - that would, at least, allow for a certain degree of safety for the women if there were recognised houses offering security and health cover. It could also allow them to keep more of the money earned by removing the pimps from the picture.

There are men who find it impossible to even think of getting involved in a relationship with a woman but for whom the sex urge has not
diminished. For them prostitution gives a way in which to deal with those perfectly natural urges. By turning the act into a business proposition they are making it safe, with no chance of emotional issues coming into play.

There may also be cases where a man in a committed relationship may turn to a prostitute if, for some reason, his wife is unable to be sexually active. Again, as a purely commercial undertaking he can release the physical urges, which seem to be so strong in a lot of men, without the possibility of an emotional attachment.

For whatever reason men get involved, surely it would be in everyone's best interests if the trade was made less risky.

IMHO most prostitution is a matter of survival in one way or another, whether it's to stop from being beaten up by a pimp, to get the next fix or just because a woman can find no other way to put food on the table. Even the so called high class prostitutes seem to be looking for a way to get all the things in life that they want by selling their bodies. The sooner that it is made safer for those women and maybe an element of choice given back to them, by drug programmes or taking out of the equation men who turn their partners into whores, for example, the better.

What should be punished most severely is the crime of pimping - if a woman wishes to sell sex services, fine. No other person, male or female, should be permitted to force a woman into that way of life or to profit from it. It will always be there, even when prostitution is legalised, but it should be subject to stringent penalties to try and discourage some and to put out of circulation those who break the law.

The power fix, generally, seems to be the woman in a relationship who uses the sex act to show her power over her partner. I have known one or two of those in my time, where sex was given on condition that the woman was rewarded in some way. To me that is more dishonest than a woman on the street who is making it clear that the 'relationship' is purely a business one.

From my own point of view, and having been in two marriages where my husbands were adulterous, I would find it less demeaning if my husband visited a prostitute for whatever reason than for him to become involved in an emotional affair. I might want to know why he needed to seek sex outside of the marriage, but it seems that some people, both men and women, have a need for more than can be supplied within a permanent relationship.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution just women...........;
From: Sorcha
Date: 12 Mar 08 - 09:15 AM

I think Jacqui just said most of what I think. Thanks, Jacqui.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution just women...........;
From: Amos
Date: 12 Mar 08 - 09:17 AM

You might enjoy Emily Bazon's essay on why prostitution is illegal,...


A

Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution just women...........;
From: Maryrrf
Date: 12 Mar 08 - 10:23 AM

It isn't necessarily a gender thing - there are male (gay) prostitutes too. I would seriously doubt that in a 'true' prostitute situation - i.e. where money is exchanged for sex - that it is a case of women or the prostitute excercising their power. Might be a little different in the case of 'borderline' prostitution where a beautiful woman extends her favors to a man she isn't attracted to because he buys her expensive gifts, gets her an apartment, etc.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution just women...........;
From: Peace
Date: 12 Mar 08 - 10:25 AM

One has to look no further than the American Congress and its votes after 9/11.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution just women...........;
From: Jeri
Date: 12 Mar 08 - 10:28 AM

That was more like date rape than prostitution.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution just women...........;
From: Bill D
Date: 12 Mar 08 - 10:31 AM

*reading, but not commenting*

Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution just women...........;
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 12 Mar 08 - 10:46 AM

There was a series that ran in the San Francisco Chronicle some months back about the slave-end of prostitution. It focuses on a woman who ran up a debt she thought she couldn't pay any other way. Here it is.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution just women...........;
From: SINSULL
Date: 12 Mar 08 - 10:55 AM

It is bizarre to me that a woman can legally carry a child to term for money but cannot engage in "normal" sex (that is, without a test tube or artificial insemination being involved) to produce that child.

I agree that prostitution should be legalized but I do not for a moment believe that legal prostitution will end illegal prostitution. For one thing, pimps will still prey on homeless girls, getting them addicted to drugs and forcing them into selling their bodies.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution just women...........;
From: jacqui.c
Date: 12 Mar 08 - 10:58 AM

That's true Mary and that's why I think that pimping should be a much more serious crime with heavy consequences.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution just women...........;
From: Bat Goddess
Date: 12 Mar 08 - 12:17 PM

Quick note to add more films --

The Jamie Lee Curtis character in "Trading Places" and the friend in "Shirley Valentine".

Sorry, can't concentrate on a real post because of weather-related pain in my shoulder. (I'm not whining, really -- just getting very tired of being in pain. Sigh.)

Linn

Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution just women...........;
From: wysiwyg
Date: 12 Mar 08 - 12:54 PM

Prostitution (with any age/gender as the "commodity") is an interlocking of tragic motives (which differ between purchaser and commodity roles) resulting from oppressions installed at an early age and reinforced by other societal forces. It's not what any person operating at their best would choose over other forms of intimacy, prefession, or pleasure-- it is chosen because the one making the choices is functionally unable to comprehend otherwise.

It's because it is so complex that it is easy to pretend to solve, while actually being so hard to actually solve.

Further complicating the issues is the fact that so much of the landscape of the issues occurs in the limbic sytem of the human brain, not in the forebrain we like to think is in charge. It's not just that the "little head" controls the "big head." The whole animal side of our brains influences how we perceive the choices people make, and we human beans tend not to like to dwell upon how closely we are still related to the animal kingdom. Separating ourselves from that kingdom allows the illusion that we are no longer subject to it; but we are.

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution just women...........;
From: Ebbie
Date: 12 Mar 08 - 01:39 PM

It is hard to consider something as power when the risks taken are by the "powerful". From disease to pregnancy to the self-righteous to the serial killer cleaning up the world, the risks borne are highest among the providers.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution just women...........;
From: katlaughing
Date: 12 Mar 08 - 01:46 PM

Jacqui, well-said. I, too, agree it should be legalised.

To add to the movie list: Prime Cut.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution just women...........;
From: Bee
Date: 12 Mar 08 - 01:50 PM

In terms of legal and illegal:

I have no idea what prostitution is like in the Netherlands now, but I'd like to mention some experiences I had of meeting prostitutes there in 1971-72. There was, of course, the famous district, where quite a large number of women freely advertised, displayed themselves, and were very busy. The district was safe enough, at least superficially, that a couple of twenty year old women could wander around there gawking with no fear of anyone bothering them at all. I met and spoke with one woman (was introduced, by her female cousin, my friend) who actually used, regularly, one of the display windows. She was business-like, brusque, and almost clinical in her approach to clients (I witnessed one financial transaction: the man was as businesslike as she).

The other pros I met there were university students who took calls, and agreed to sell sexual encounters on an "I have to see you first and evaluate" basis. They were quite cheerful in stating that they were paying for their schooling extras and an expensive lifestyle. One, however, had started taking very expensive hard drugs and was thought by other girls to be careless and acting dangerously - there are crazy men everywhere.

In Canada, where prostitution is illegal, I've seen the worst side of prostitution: nasty pimps, drug addiction, violence, sadism and murder. I've also seen a few instances of independent prostitutes - very tough women indeed - who managed to avoid having a pimp, sometimes by virtue of being strong enough to inflict physical damage on any man foolish enough to try it on, and ultimately because most pimps found it much easier to just go after younger, often addicted, easily controlled women.

I knew two of these independent pros over a period of five or six years (they had children I cared for). They were single mothers, not drug addicted, who couldn't or wouldn't deal with the welfare system. Neither had made it through high school, and had no job skills, and were not good at people skills, either. Their goal was financial survival for their children. Both exited the profession during the time I knew them. One came in one day, deliriously happy at having gotten a job as a nude dancer - less money, no more fear of arrest. She eventually married a previous client, a marriage that was ongoing and seemingly stable many years later. The other was offered a part time job in an environment in which she was comfortable and well known as an individual, and she stuck with it, became fulltime, and kept the job for over twenty years.

I think it's obvious anywhere that while not fully eliminating the risk of violence, legalising prostitution and taking pimps out of the picture entirely reduces the worst effects enormously, and also allows women in the profession the luxury of deciding for themselves if and when they want to earn a living in another manner.

Human motivation being marvellously diverse, I imagine some women might see selling sex as a power position. I suspect most see it as a method of earning money, in whatever quantity.

Are bodies commodities? I think they can be. I'm pretty sure professional football players bodies' are to some extent commodified. Does prostitution devalue sexuality in terms of loving relationships? I think it may be possible to separate the two approaches, just as we separate a professional massage from the experience of being massaged/touched/embraced by a loved one.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution just women...........;
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 12 Mar 08 - 01:56 PM

It's not what any person operating at their best would choose over other forms of intimacy, prefession, or pleasure-- it is chosen because the one making the choices is functionally unable to comprehend otherwise.
I don't believe it. I am quite sure there are women who choose prostitution, especially on the high end, because of the money they can make. There may well be others who choose it because they enjoy sex, especially with the added bonus of an income thrown in. It is a profession that requires almost no skill, particularly at the entry level position. There are certainly women, and men, who indulge in it because they are driven by fear, need, pain and addiction. Those people are worthy of pity. The high-end prostitute is just as worthy of scorn. Of course, as good liberals, we are supposed to be obligated to look for social justification for any activity that is bad. It's never a personal choice. In fact, even to call it bad is making a judgement call. Nothing is "good" or "bad" without fully understanding the context, since values are on a constantly sliding scale.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution just women...........;
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 12 Mar 08 - 02:07 PM

Sorry, Mick. I lost track of the fact that you were looking for feedback from women. I'll shut up.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution just women...........;
From: Wesley S
Date: 12 Mar 08 - 05:55 PM

Sorry to break in here but I saw an article from the Today show that interviews a woman from a high priced escort service where she tells her side of the story. I thought it might be of interest.


The Today Show

Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution just women...........;
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 12 Mar 08 - 05:58 PM

Bee: It's always been my understanding that prostitution itself is legal in Canada; like the situation in Britain that McGrath mentioned, it is soliciting, etc., that is illegal - to my understanding ...

Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution just women...........;
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Mar 08 - 06:35 PM

How do you prostitute and not solicit?

Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution just women...........;
From: Bee
Date: 12 Mar 08 - 06:59 PM

meself, it's same-same, as far as the women are concerned. Unless it's a regular client, sooner or later they have to indicate a price: voila, solicitation. Besides that, they get harassed out of neighbourhoods by police acting on the complaints of residents. I completely understand that: I've had to collect the 'debris' left in corners of playgrounds and other children's play areas far too often, and I lived five years in a downtown area at the centre of a popular 'stroll'. There are few things more distressing than waking up to the screams of a woman being roughed up by a cursing pimp. Calling the police with such a complaint wasn't very useful - shoulda told 'em there was a fire, might've taken them less than forty five minutes to make it the eight blocks from the police station.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution just women...........;
From: meself
Date: 12 Mar 08 - 07:06 PM

I'm just talking about what the actual law is - so I assume my impression is correct that prostitution itself is legal ...

Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution just women...........;
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Mar 08 - 07:20 PM

Sounds like the law is specious double-talk to me.

Prostitution, like marijuana smoking, ought to be legal. It's a matter of personal choice, and legalization would greatly help to protect the lives and health of the prostitutes.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution just women...........;
From: katlaughing
Date: 12 Mar 08 - 09:53 PM

How is it "prostitution" i.e. sex for money, if they cannot solicit legally? Doesn't that negate it being called prostitution or it even existing? What does the law mean? You can be a prostitute in name only, but don't try to practice it as it will then be illegal?

Wesley, thanks for the link.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution just women...........;
From: Joe_F
Date: 12 Mar 08 - 10:44 PM

It is true that most men, if they try hard enough & are not fussy, can get laid without paying. However, it takes time. I have been told (I wouldn't know, myself) that if you have a lot of money and are very busy, the time may be more important than the money. I was startled to hear, a few years ago, that if you have won a bear contest you can command $1000 a night or so. And that's a gay niche market!

Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution just women...........;
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 12 Mar 08 - 10:46 PM

A couple of weeks ago I exited my local gas station and had just shut the door to my pickup when I realized a man had followed me out the door. He was pulling a business card out of his wallet and indicated he wanted to talk, would I roll down the window? Given a couple of inches of clear window opening, asked if I wanted company that evening. I was quite startled (and wasn't dressed to attract--I'd been mowing the lawn and cleaning the garage). Back up went the window (I'd only lowered it a couple of inches) as I declined his offer. He was a very handsome fellow, certainly not in need of soliciting strangers. It really was quite odd.

Now if I were at a museum or concert and really hit it off with someone and the same question was asked, I'd at least give it some thought. Where there was some social context and filtering going on there might be more information for making a safe decision, though I think the answer regarding intimacy that soon would still be the same. Give it a little time.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution just women...........;
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 12 Mar 08 - 10:57 PM

that if you have won a bear contest

Bear contest? or bare contest? Either way, where would that be?

Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution just women...........;
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Mar 08 - 11:05 PM

What the hell is a bear contest? And how do you win? Do you have to pin the bear for a ten-count?

That sort of thing used to work great in Beowulf's day if you wanted lots of willing female company, but I don't know if it does anymore.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution just women...........;
From: Bee
Date: 12 Mar 08 - 11:09 PM

It's kinda similar, Little Hawk, except the attention is from males who like big, strong, hairy males (bears).

Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution just women...........;
From: Janie
Date: 12 Mar 08 - 11:41 PM

Well, Mick, it depends on what definition of power one is using. Mastery over one's self, or mastery over others.   In general, it seems to me that people who are intentionally exploitive of others actually lack a sufficient sense of personal power.    "If I can exploit or control others, then I am powerful."    This means their sense of being powerful is almost entirely dependent on what others do, think, or feel.

A pimp is a pimp, irrespective of gender, imo.

Legalization of prostitution might make it safer, but probably does not make it less exploitive.

Every transaction between a prostitute and a customer may not be exploitive. Many transactions between prostitutes and customers may be mutually exploitive. But I think there has been sufficient psychological and social research done over time and across cultures to make a reasonable assertion that prostitution is generally dependent on the exploitation, usually, of women. But the process begins long before a prostitute becomes a prostitute.   The process, for many, though not all prostitutes, begins with traumatic childhoods that include any combination of poverty, physical abuse, sexual abuse, substantial neglect. With addiction and/or mental illness.

High-end prostitutes are the exception, not the rule. College girls being promiscuous and getting paid for it are the exception, not the rule. Most of those college girls won't find themselves selling sex for long.   Many of them won't understand what they did to themselves until several years later, when the herpes virus emerges, the cervical cancer from HPV, the infertility from undetected chlamydia and PID, or they turn up HIV positive.

People who have hardscrabble lives - whether because of bad choices, lack of opportunities and resources, or an accident of birth - may be very good at surviver skills - and survival skills include manipulation and exploitation as well as the ability to become psychologically acclimated to abuse. The conditions that foster the development of these survival skills are not usually the conditions that foster the skills to thrive and be physically and psychologically healthy. (think Maslow's pyramid.)

Exploitation is exploitation. Some people may choose to put themselves in positions where they are exploited. Some people may be completely blind to the fact that they are being exploited, or have need to defend themselves from that knowledge.   Some people may very deliberately and consciously be exploitive, some may be blind or defended against seeing and acknowledging they are being exploitive. Exploiter and exploited are not at all mutually exclusive - in fact, it is probably most common for a person to engage in both behaviors. So many people are both victims and perpetrators.

That's my half cent worth.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution just women...........;
From: meself
Date: 13 Mar 08 - 12:10 AM

'How is it "prostitution" i.e. sex for money, if they cannot solicit legally?' etc.

I didn't write the law, so don't ask me to justify it. I do imagine there is some case-law that clarifies the difference between prostitution and solicitation, but I've never looked into it. Maybe if Richard Bridge shows up here he'll enlighten us.

Having said that, I would speculate that the law means that even if it can be proven that someone paid another person to have sex, or conversely that someone accepted payment for sex, that does not constitue a crime. However, if it can be proven that someone OFFERED money for sex, or offered sex for money, then either or both parties could be convicted of soliciting - or something. A subtle distinction, obviously, but that's why we have lawyers.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution just women...........;
From: Amergin
Date: 13 Mar 08 - 01:16 AM

Mick, you said, "Nathan,..... looking for the women's views here."

Well I could put on my kilt....and then post here...would that work? ;)

Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution just women...........;
From: Big Mick
Date: 13 Mar 08 - 06:59 AM

Nope Nathan, you got lousy legs.....***chuckle***

I was just looking to hear what women say about legalizing prostitution, and whether or not there was any legitimacy, from a woman's point of view to the use of it to exercise power.

Men always have something to say, but all too often I don't think we try to get inside what women really feel on a subject. I was hopeful of a good discussion of women really exercising power and control on their terms. The woman who raised it originally seems to have backed off from her statement. I just don't see prostitution as anything other than men exploiting women, although Janie gave me a different (if very clinical) perspective of mutual exploitation.

I just wanted us guys to be quiet and try to learn something.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution just women...........;
From: Thompson
Date: 13 Mar 08 - 07:29 AM

Prostitution is capitalism in action, in its most nakedly exploitative form.

It doesn't make any difference whether a pimp is a man or a woman.

It doesn't make any difference whether a prostitute is a man or a woman.

Traditionally, there has been one kind of customer (male) and two kinds of prostitutes (women for sale to heterosexual men, and men for sale to homosexual men.)

A new type of prostitution is now emerging: Western women are going on sex tours to poor countries in Asia, the Caribbean and Africa where they have sex with male prostitutes.

Slavery is endemic in the industry, and always has been.

In the 19th century Irish women, for instance, were brought to America by entrepreneurs such as Honey Fitz on the pretext that they were going to work as domestic servants; they then found themselves enslaved as prostitutes and at the mercy of their gangmasters' gangs.

Today the same trade is being carried on using the same techniques with Eastern European and African women.

This subject is touched on in the novel Two Caravans by Maria Lewycky

The charity Ruhama is working with prostitutes in Ireland; more information on that website.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution just women...........;
From: SINSULL
Date: 13 Mar 08 - 08:17 AM

It's not what any person operating at their best would choose over other forms of intimacy, prefession, or pleasure-- it is chosen because the one making the choices is functionally unable to comprehend otherwise.

Sorry Susan - there have been Long Island housewives doing it for the thrill and some spending money, well off college girls doing it for the money,escort services promoting successful models and business women - all comprehending exactly what they are doing. A choice not a default.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution just women...........;
From: Bee
Date: 13 Mar 08 - 10:43 AM

Big Mick, first, thanks for being interested enough in what women think to specifically ask.

I think we have examples from the past of women using sex to exercise some control over powerful men, from Greek and Roman stories/histories, and from the courts of Europe. Always a precarious position, since it was a position easily fallen from, given the tendency of powerful men to look for new worlds to conquer.

Given the unequal status women had in previous eras, I think it is safe to say those women very much had gaining power in mind in exchange for their sexuality.

It's probable that sort of sex in exchange for political power or financial power is still a part of human enterprise, particularly in those parts of the world where womens' status is low.

Whether some women experience a kind of 'thrill' from getting money for sex with powerful men is a different question, I think. Motives are often hard to judge, even by the person with the motive. Is it a feeling of power over a man, or is it a feeling of triumphal vengeance over previous bad treatment by men, or is it a general drive to exploit others, women and men equally?

Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution just women...........;
From: Bee
Date: 13 Mar 08 - 01:41 PM

http://scienceblogs.com/cortex/?utm_source=bloglist&utm_medium=dropdown

Scroll down a bit for an interesting comparison of legal techniques in stemming prostitution's effects.

(And read the bird article at the top for heartbreaker. I guarantee at least a little eye water will come of it. )

Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution just women...........;
From: Thompson
Date: 13 Mar 08 - 01:47 PM

Oh, sad! Eye water certainly.

It's like the story of the chimps taught to sign a vocabulary of words, then sold on to vivisection laboratories. When some of their old trainers (students) went to visit them, they urgently signed "Out! Out"

There was a court case, as far as I remember, and the judges decided that animals were not capable of intelligent speech.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution just women...........;
From: Janie
Date: 14 Mar 08 - 12:23 AM

Mick, while an individual transaction between a prostitute and a customer may be mutually exploitive, I come down firmly on the side that views prostitution as extremely exploitive of women. I agree with Thompson, that it is capitalism at it's most exploitive.

The difference in the results of Sweden's law and Amsterdam's law, as described in the link Bee provided are telling.

Looking beyond prostitution, I would venture to guess that there are very few women who have not, at some point in their lives and relationships, had sex because of physical or psychological coercion.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution just women...........;
From: katlaughing
Date: 14 Mar 08 - 12:42 AM

I believe you are right about that, Janie.

Bee, thanks for the link. The bird story was incredible. Also, the info about Sweden was very interesting.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution just women...........;
From: Bert
Date: 14 Mar 08 - 01:04 AM

I was going to keep out of this but

...I would venture to guess that there are very few women who have not, at some point in their lives and relationships, had sex because of physical or psychological coercion...

That is very scary Janie.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution just women...........;
From: Big Mick
Date: 14 Mar 08 - 12:20 PM

Bert, that is exactly the type of observation that men need to quietly listen to, and chew on, and bounce around in their heads. It is along the lines that I hoped would come out. We (males)view this all from a completely different place, and our frames of reference are entirely different. I think sometimes that we view coercion from a very selfish, and competitive, place. But for women, it is often a survival thing. And more often than we like to think. That one sentence could be the topic for a very long thread.

Ladies, please continue your conversation. Gents..... just sit and learn a bit .....

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution just women...........;
From: GUEST,Abby J
Date: 14 Mar 08 - 01:16 PM

"I would venture to guess that there are very few women who have not, at some point in their lives and relationships, had sex because of physical or psychological coercion... "

It depends what level you mean that as to whether that is scary.

Have I ever felt physically or psychologically bullied into sex while openly protesting about it? - No

Have I ever engaged in sex because I thought I was expected to, or to keep him happy because he was in the mood and I wasn't but I didn't want to deal with the emotional results of me rejecting his advances? - yes, sometimes.

Do I feel coerced as a result? yes. kind of.
Do I feel abused as a result? No.

Maybe I've been lucky in life and have not experienced the kind of thing that Janie meant, I'm not sure.

For me, sex isn't always about deep emotional stuff - it can be just about mutual fun between people who want to share each other's bodies. In an idealistic world I don't see why there shouldn't be a financial transaction involved as well, with a prostitute enjoying her work and being recompensed for her time and skill, in an environment that is not physically/psychologically damaging.

The realist in me, however, accepts that the above situation is not common and I'm not convinced the legal status of prostitution would make a great deal of difference to anything. There are a lot of unhappy, damaged, or downright nasty people out there, and any prostitute is going to be vulnerable to them no matter what the circumstances.

Anybody read any Robert Heinlein? His attitude to sex and prostitution is refreshing. But maybe not very realistic.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution just women...........;
From: Grab
Date: 14 Mar 08 - 02:49 PM

A thought (they happen to me sometimes).

Stats say many female prostitutes in the West are drug addicts, needing "easy money" for their next fix. Actually damn hard money, but anyway - they need the fix, so they need the money, and prostitution is all they can see as the route.

Compare the other way though. Stats also say a large percentage of crimes against property (and a fair chunk of muggings) are from male drug addicts. Again, they need the fix, but there's no other option for them.

So would the absence of prostitution as an option for female drug addicts not make crime *worse*...?

And would a better solution to both problems not be to clean the poor bastards up and give them a route out? Current proposals in the UK are that drug-related crime might not result in a prison sentence. I'd actually rather they ended up locked up somewhere *and* that somewhere had compulsory rehabilitation, bcos it's going to be better for everyone. Shame that the money from the "war on drugs" didn't also find its way to halfway houses and rehab centres.

Similarly on people-trafficking. Bollocks to whether they're being exploited for prostitution or regular domestic work (eg. servants in Saudi Arabia) or manual work like cockle-picking or farm labour - the fact that they're being exploited at all is good enough reason to stop it happening.

As far as I can see, all Emily Bazon's reasons for banning prostitution are symptoms of people either thinking they have no other option or being literally forced into it. It's missing the point of the real problems.

No, I can't imagine myself using a prostitute, but clearly there are people who do feel that need. As far as sex goes, there are a whole bunch of areas where this is the case. And for two groups whose reasons can be understood fairly easily, it's worth mentioning not-out gays who are known to use prostitutes as a way of dealing with the fact that they can't handle identifying with being gay, and disabled people who find attractinging a partner difficult because of their disability.

Graham.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution just women...........;
From: Bee
Date: 14 Mar 08 - 03:00 PM

It's many. many years since I read Heinlein, but I remember being thoroughly annoyed, as a young woman, by some aspects of his take on sexuality - he seemed to promote open and cheerful sexual/partnering/marriage, while at the same time couldn't help but make it all vividly patriarchal in execution.

As to physically or psychologically coerced sex:

I've been attacked by a would-be rapist three times in my life, but was fortunately able to fight them off, once by the use of the standard defense tactic, after which he was too busy vomiting to bother me; once by threatening extreme violence, and he was luckily a coward; and last managed to talk him out of it. I didn't report any of those assaults, because in the 1970s a young woman wearing raggy jeans and no bra was unlikely to get much justice when essentially, 'nothing happened'.

Psychological coercion is another matter. There's a fine line between 'wooing' a woman and being coercive, and I've known some men who crossed it, but I did not have sex with them.

The issue of sex with a partner when s/he wants it and you don't involves more fine psychological and emotional lines. A person, man or woman, should be confident that if they say 'not this time' it will be respected by a regular partner, since fatigue, illness, worry and other states can render a person momentarily asexual. However, one can feel that way, and knowing the partner may need reassurance and physical contact, have sex out of love and concern for their emotional well-being. I've certainly done that without feeling abused after.

I think the issue of psychologically coercive sex between long term partners may occur most often in a relationship that is nearing an end. At that point in one early relationship, I very suddenly found myself sickened by the idea of intimacy with a man I'd lived with three years, yet I was intimate with him for some time after because I couldn't work out how to tell him - I didn't hate him, he wasn't a monster, and it seemed cruel. But the coercion was all internal, and he was completely unaware and simply continuing what had become normal. It was frankly awful - lesson learned, but I think it may be common.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution just women...........;
From: Big Mick
Date: 14 Mar 08 - 03:34 PM

Thanks for the observations, Graham. You have given some food for thought, and maybe we could start another thread to discuss all the rest of the intertwined issues you raise. It would be a good one. But I want to keep this thread as a place for women to have an open discussion, completely from their perspective, from which they can learn/teach each other, and we (males) can try and gain an understanding of their perspectives.   If we can keep it to that, we (males) stand to gain quite a lot in terms of understanding.

All the best,

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution just women...........;
From: jacqui.c
Date: 14 Mar 08 - 04:31 PM

Problem is, sex is still rather a taboo subject, even amongst loving couples. I have now been lucky enough to be with a man to whom I can talk about anything under the sun and that has made a real difference.

I was coerced into sex before I became a teenager by a boy a little younger than me who threatened to tell on me when, caught short, I'd peed in some bushes. I was very scared of my father's wrath, would go to any lengths to avoid it, and did.

I got the "If you love me" spiel from two boyfriends, the second one ending in pregnancy and marriage at 17. After two children in 15 months I really wasn't up for sex but would get an elbow in the ribs in bed at night and accusations of being 'queer' (his words) or of having an affair. It was easier to lay back and let him do what he wanted.

All that left me with a very ambivalent attitude to sex - great when it was happening but I really didn't look forward to doing it. Husband #3 was very sexually active but would turn over when finished and go to sleep. what I wanted was more of the cuddling and a feeling that I was loved for more than just being a sex partner.

At one time in my life, when money was short, my brother suggested that I could go 'on the game'. I wondered, in later years, how he would react if someone suggested that to his daughter.

I think that I was lucky to come out at the end of all of that feeling whole. Yes, I was coerced, both overtly and emotionally to have sex when I really didn't want to. It built up over time until I felt that I could not say no to the current man in my life. Luckily I now know that, if I need to, I can say no as Kendall makes me feel very loved and very secure.

I can see how women do get involved in prostitution and in abusive relationships - it is all too easy to slide down that road.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution just women...........;
From: Bee
Date: 14 Mar 08 - 05:07 PM

Reading your post, Jacqui, I wonder if being afraid of their fathers as children might be a factor in some women growing up to be more compliant in sexual (and possibly other) situations that they do not want. I was lucky enough to have a very gentle and caring father (and mother), who let me know they thought I was smart, admirable, and sensible, with the result that I left childhood with a (possibly overly) strong sense of self worth and independence. When faced with situations where someone tried to coerce me in any fashion (including non-sexual situations, such as unfair workplace situations), my gut response has always been an outraged 'how dare you do this to me!'

Your brother, I hope, has since begged for forgiveness. I can't imagine how I'd have felt if my brother had suggested such a thing when I was financially flattened. I'm glad you've found a good person to share life with.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution just women...........;
From: jacqui.c
Date: 14 Mar 08 - 09:17 PM

i had what I think was a disfunctional family. I don't have any contact now with either of my brothers and that doesn't worry me.

I did try to bring my own children up differently. I don't think that they were ever afraid to come to me with problems and concerns. They have both grown up to be good people and I really can't imagine my daughter ever being coerced into anything.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution just women...........;
From: Grab
Date: 15 Mar 08 - 03:32 PM

OK, I'll zip my gob. :-) But that Emily Bazon article got me annoyed, because it was *so* missing the point of what was really wrong.

And pray god we don't start using Heinlein as an example of what the world should be like.

Graham.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution just women...........;
From: GUEST,Appaloosa Lady
Date: 15 Mar 08 - 06:58 PM

I've read no books on this Mick, nor have any personal experience, either from myself or from those I know, but here is what I feel...and I'm only talking about those whose whole life has become one of prostitution.


"....exercising power?"

No...even the lady at the top of her profession must lie there very often, sobbing her heart out, on the nights she's alone. She may have a wallet stashed full of money, but I bet she'd trade every last coin of it to be loved, truly loved, no matter how hard or calculationg she may seem.

"Or is it those that seek to make money by exploiting women?"

Yes.

"Are bodies just commodities?"

Once they weren't. Now, sadly, they so often are.

Even children's bodies have become 'commodities' as 11/12 year olds have 'sex' in a world where they are now surrounded by those who seek to 'groom' them, get them ready for a life of 'sex-industry sex' where love, real love, is barely touched upon. Our bodies should be very special, to us and to the other person involved.


"Is a woman pimp on higher moral ground than a man pimp?"

A woman who exploits other women in this way is beyond words. She is beyond anything I can possibly think of to say....but then, men who are pimps leave me speechless too. Women though, know how it feels, so how they could put another woman through that? They are morally, spiritually and humanly wrong, in every way, as are men who are pimps.

There are many different reasons, I should think, why a woman abandons everything inside her soul and becomes a prostitute.

Maybe she has no self-respect, brought about by a terrible childhood, or a vicious struggle to stay afloat in an education system that now brands you 'Success' or 'FAILURE' by the time you are just a teenager. If you are branded the latter, then life is so often very hard and unkind. You may have no pride in yourself, no belief, no inner happiness, just turmoil, anger and an emptiness, where the word 'FAILURE' bounces around inside you.

Maybe, like thousands of others who've been branded 'FAILURE' by those who apparently think they know better, she took to drugs first, to numb the pain of so many years of unhappiness and confusion, just before she gave her soul away.

But as she lies there in the darkness, afterwards, how does she feel, with no arms to turn to which will encircle her lovingly? How does she feel when there is no-one to kiss the tears away? How does she carry on, day after gut-churning day, allowing complete strangers to use her body, often so harshly? A body that once belonged to her and her alone. Maybe, just maybe, she longs for her body to have just one person who loves it, one person who sees it, one person who loves HER. One person who loves the inside soul of her. But that is probably never going to be possible, not any more.....and so she carries on.

Maybe she has children that she's desperate to feed and clothe, bills to pay, a house to keep running, and there is no other way that she can cope. So she lives a secret life, mother in the day, fantasy to a stranger in the night. Maybe she is able to separate herself into two people, for a little while, but the cracks will soon start to show.

The young prostitute has her looks to keep her going, at least seeing the lust in the eyes of the men who take her. But what of the older prostitute? The one who knows that even her looks have gone? How does she cope when the men don't want her anymore? How does she feel, as she faces a future of utter loneliness, whilst looking back on a past where she has been used, literally, 'used' for most of her life? How does she cope?

Were there times when she held a man who was a client, and she knew she could love him, really love him, but he didn't 'see' her, because of the problems in his own life? Maybe he treated her so kindly, maybe, just for a little while, he shared something of himself with her, treated her like a human being. How did she feel having to let him go, having him give her the money at the end of it all, for something she would have given to him freely, with her heart? How that must hurt.

I don't believe any woman goes into this 'profession' with a smile on her face. Yes, some may love sex, to start with, but with money and time, eventually comes the degradation, even if the money is knee-deep around her.

So what's the solution?

To show her love, at the start of her life. To have a society that cares. For her to have parents who hopefully love her dearly, but if not, then people around who are willing to step in and give her a better chance. To make sure that all children and young people are branded 'Success!" when they leave school, for every soul in this world has something they are good at...it just may not be on the school's curriculum.

To show her love when she becomes a prostitute, to be there to pick up the pieces and realise that she doesn't need to be 'legalised', she simply needs to be 'humanised'

To give her back her self-respect, for with that comes self-love, and once she has that, and a society that cares for her, then she has a chance of ending up in those arms that will love her, protect her and support her.

We have much to learn...and prostitutes have much to teach us, the most important thing being, that they are not 'just a word' but, they are women. They are someone's daughter, someone's mother, but above all that, they are just like you and me, and they hurt in the same way.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution just women...........;
From: Janie
Date: 15 Mar 08 - 08:14 PM

Lovely post, Appaloosa Lady. The only exception I take to it is that I think that women's bodies have always been viewed as a commodity. For that matter, the bodies of laborers have always been viewed as expendable commodities by powerful exploiters. The values and mores of societies, shaped by those with the most status, and therefore the most influence, often justify and support this.   



Love, honor and obey.....

A wife shall submit to her husband....

May I have your daughter's hand....

The bride was given away by her father....

He exercised his conjugal rights....

The kidnapping of the bride in some eastern Europe and central Asian traditions

From the blog linked to by Bee earlier:

A story is told in New Zealand about the early 19th century visit of an Episcopal bishop to an isolated Maori village. As everyone was about to retire after an evening of high-spirited feasting and dancing, the village headman -- wanting to show sincere hospitality to his honored guest -- called out, "A woman for the bishop." Seeing a scowl of disapproval on the prelate's face, the host roared even louder, "Two women for the bishop!"

All of this indicates a strong bias across cultures of viewing women as property, as commodity.   It is even more true for children.   

I don't think, over-all, there is more or less sex trafficking than there has ever been. I do think there is more public awareness, more public outrage against the traffickers and the practice, and, at least in the abstract, more sympathy for the population of those trafficked. (But not more sympathy for the individuals within that population.)




I

Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution just women...........;
From: Bill D
Date: 15 Mar 08 - 08:36 PM

*still reading* ...and integrating all these post, Heinlein, Robert Rimmer, various women (and men) I have known, and what I have learned about culture and evolution into my thoughts.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution just women...........;
From: Janie
Date: 15 Mar 08 - 09:43 PM

However, A.L., I think your view may be a tad romantic.

Stilly (I think) posted links to movies in which a main character is a prostitute. One she included was "Monster," based on the story ofAileen Wuornos , a prostitute who turned into a serial killer of men, mostly truck drivers, and was executed by the State of Florida in 2002 or 2003.   It is probably accurate to say that she was, indeed, turned into a monster. He psychotic episodes as reported while in prison could have been a biologically based disorder, the result of neurological damage from years of drug and alcohol use, the effects of prolonged and life-long trauma from physical and sexual abuse, or could have arisen from a complex combination of any or all of the above. Her life was absolutely tragic, but there was nothing romantic to her pain and the tragedy that was her life, nor to the pain and tragedy that she, in turned, wreaked in the lives of others.   She was a terrible victim who became a terrible victimizer while continuing to be victimized herself.

I knew the movie was about this female serial killer who had been executed, and whose history had been widely reported on while she was in prison and the death penalty was under appeal, but I had never followed the story, and knew nothing about her.

Now, most murderers do not become serial killers, and most prostitutes do not become murderers. I don't know if most prostitutes have life histories that are otherwise similar to hers. I have not had a prostitute (some active, some with a past history) in treatment, however, who did not have a significant history of childhood physical and sexual abuse.   What blew me away about the movie was the accuracy of the portrayal of one type of personality shaped by a history of abuse beginning in childhood. The themes of attachment, trauma bonds, and identification with the aggressor run strong and are apparent in the ways these protective but maladaptive psychological processes may shape the victim.

Very Important Note:    I am not at all saying that anyone who experiences abuse, even similar, long term abuse, will have this type of personality. I am also not saying or implying in any way that people who are abused are likely to become prostitutes.

I wish I could say the abuse and abandonment she experienced throughout her childhood are an exceptional experience that only a tiny, tiny minority of children will ever have to endure.   While most children in fact, do not endure such trauma, many more do than most people realize.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution just women...........;
From: katlaughing
Date: 15 Mar 08 - 10:14 PM

Thinking on some others things to post, but want to make one note: AL spoke of education and self-respect etc. for girls. It is VERY important, but i think we also have a need to foster care and concern in boys AND give them the tools to resist a pack mentality as well as respect for themselves and girls/women.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution just women...........;
From: folk1e
Date: 15 Mar 08 - 10:21 PM

Ok my tuppence worth.....

"...I would venture to guess that there are very few women who have not, at some point in their lives and relationships, had sex because of physical or psychological coercion..."

You are probably right, but I think this is also true of men!

All of the replies on this thread are written ( I assume) by non prostitutes. There will obviously be a bias!

Most of the "anti" spin in government is being generated by a few ultra feminists with a definate agenda to persue. Just look at the insistance on "trafficking" and the Sweedish model of criminalisation!
Nobody would ever say that there is no trafficking but to stretch it to "nearly all" is a lie.

If I may expand the topic ..... it could be described as prostitution to be forced to work in poor conditions / low (no) wages or in a job you would not do without duress. This would apply to everyone, man woman and child. Do you buy your £4.00 jeans from asda or your cheap video from China? If so you are guilty of furthering prostitution! You may even think this is acceptable, or even not think at all, but we are all responsible for our own actions weather they be to buy cheap sweatshop goods or to visit one of the working girls.
Not always black and white is it?

Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution just women...........;
From: Bee
Date: 15 Mar 08 - 10:44 PM

I think Janie hit on one point I'd like to remark on, and that is the idea that in some ideal past, women and children (and various classes of men) were not victimised in this manner, when in fact they were. We have for example, a stereotypical notion about Victorian morals, when in fact, there was a thriving trade not just in prostitutes, but in young girls and children. Wealthy men would pay a lot for virgins, as they believed they would then be safe from contracting syphilis, so there was widespread demand for children to satisfy this market.

There remains an obscure record, since around the thirteenth century, of the underside of sexual history, in the drawings of various known and unknown artists, often called on to sketch or paint prurient material for pay. Much of it involves very young girls, and some children, including 'cute' sketches of little boys and girls in haylofts or stables. There are frequently 'from life' sketches of interiors of brothels, depicting the activities of the evening.

When you begin with the premise of women and children as property, which holds true through much of history and across myriad cultures, the natural outcome is that, like all property, they are at their owners disposal for use or gain. We like to think that our present society is beyond that mindset, and to a great extent we are. But the act of prostitution harks back to that belief that women can be property, bought, used, sold.

I speculate (out on a limb, mind you) that if paying for sex did not encourage the buyers to revert to thinking of the woman herself as the thing purchased (as opposed to the sex itself being service provided for remuneration), there would be fewer problems attached to prostitution.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution just women...........;
From: GUEST,Abby J
Date: 16 Mar 08 - 02:50 PM

that last point, Bee, is I think the thing that appealed to me about the Heinlein take on the whole thing. I know a lot of his stuff is dated and patriarchal and all the rest of it, which may offend some, but he had a very solid basis of the sex being a service (or even an art?) that was being traded for money in a equivalent way to buying the services of, say, a hairdresser or a masseur or any other personal service.

Enough about Heinlein. I'm interested in what somebody said about this forum giving us a biased perspective because (presumably) none of us here are prostitutes. I'm trying to decide whether I feel that, because I am a well educated daughter & granddaughter of somewhat feminist, well educated women, and am unable to avoid the fact that I'm in my thirties, white, middle class, english, not a drug user... whether all of these things mean that I'm not very well qualified to discuss the issue except for where it affects white, middle class, english, non-drug using women in their thirties...??

Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution just women...........;
From: katlaughing
Date: 16 Mar 08 - 05:57 PM

Abby J...LOL...too right!

All of the replies on this thread are written ( I assume) by non prostitutes. There will obviously be a bias!

What kind of bias do you suppose? What kind of bias do you hold? Should we asuume you are male?

You have a good point about teh production of goods and workers, but you've muddied it with some unnecessary sniping, imo.

To me, there is a big difference between sexual prostitution vs the kinds of prostitution of workers which you bring up. A woman would understand this and probably feel the same way. Workers are treated horribly and paid little in a form of slavery, but they are less likely to be used sexually than an actual prostitute. Sex is, afterall, her stock in trade. To compare it to the other forms which you brought up is to diminish the impact of someone, usually a male, sticking something within your body and usually expecting you to strip naked in order for them to do so. There is no comparison, imo.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution just women...........;
From: GUEST,Abby J
Date: 17 Mar 08 - 08:08 AM

Good point well made Kat - bodies are very very personal and if you are forced to share something so intimate whether through rape or prostitution where there's not much freedom of choice involved, then it is surely a much deeper violation than other forms of exploitation no matter how horrible.

I still think there is, or should be, a way for those who wish to sell that intimate act as a service or art with a firm financial footing. But on their own terms. Just not sure how you could ever be sure it was safe enough.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution just women...........;
From: GUEST,logged off for a good reason
Date: 17 Mar 08 - 10:30 AM

second try

>>>it could be described as prostitution to be forced to work in poor conditions / low (no) wages or in a job you would not do without duress.<<<

Not the same thing. Not at all.

No, wasn't a prostitute. But was sexually assaulted in a date rape setting. At a party at the home of several friends where I was planning to spend the night, had my sleeping bag stashed in a back bedroom, so didn't worry about the glass being refilled at a Halloween party. The hangover the next morning was enough to convince me that I never want to be so careless with alcohol, but when I woke and headed to the bathroom I realized, then remembered, the co-worker who had visited during the night, then left. Might have well been a prostitute for all of the care he took. No safe-sex (was pre-AIDS, lucky me. I guess.) I was offended by the impersonality of being a vessel.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution just women...........;
From: Janie
Date: 18 Mar 08 - 12:08 AM

I speculate (out on a limb, mind you) that if paying for sex did not encourage the buyers to revert to thinking of the woman herself as the thing purchased (as opposed to the sex itself being service provided for remuneration), there would be fewer problems attached to prostitution.

Been thinking about this one, Bee. Presumably, the customer is seeking to buy something other than the sex itself, seeking some element of the humanity of another person, for some purpose other than simply to have an orgasm. Otherwise, why not just masterbate?

I don't think most men or women can completely divorce sex from personhood without in someway cognitively dehumanizing or devaluing the personhood of themselves and/or the other.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution just women...........;
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 18 Mar 08 - 10:25 AM

We are approaching this from a position of Western thought. Different cultures do have markedly different views of sex and its availability. Dehumanization is something that may be taught, depending on the degree (in a sliding scale, consider concentrations camps universally dehumanizing; breaking a fingernail, a cultural affectation. Voluntary sex, somewhere in the middle.). The position one holds (emotionally or intellectually) in regard to an event that doesn't actually harm the body could be wildly different in another part of the world. There are cultures that are more "sex-positive" (what old-fashioned conservative western scholars or others have been heard to call "promiscuous.")

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution just women...........;
From: Art Thieme
Date: 18 Mar 08 - 11:43 AM

For one woman's view of this, I would definitely suggest the film "Dangerous Beauty". First, for what it might be worth to any individual, this film was given "2 thumbs up" by Ebert and Siskel.

It tells the story of an actual person, a resident of Venice in the sixteenth century----Veronica Franco. In that time and place, only one profession allowed her to pursue learning and acquire property. Under the tutelage of her mother, she became a courtesan to the rich and powerful. --- Persecuted, eventually, by the Spanish Inquisition and tried as a witch, there is actually a rather happy ending to the film and to her life.

Art

Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution just women...........;
From: Janie
Date: 18 Mar 08 - 12:46 PM

There are certainly cultures that are more sex positive. That does not appear to have stopped the trafficking in women and children for the purposes of sex in most cultures throughout history.

One thing about which I am totally ignorant - in most cultures that are more "sex positive," how much choice do women actually have? Can a woman choose to have sex with whom she pleases or refuse sex as she pleases, or can a spouse, ruler, father, or simply the customs more or less dictate that hospitality demands that some woman step forward or be offered for sex?

Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution just women...........;
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 18 Mar 08 - 01:39 PM

I can't say. But I remember quite a discussion of this in a very long article that appeared in Vanity Fair in the late 1980s, about AIDS. It was an amazing document, and to their credit, the editors at VF ran it as long as it needed to go. (It reminded me of the way The New Yorker ran Hersey's "Hiroshima" in a whole issue of the magazine, even though it was the length of a small book.) The author discussed the aspects of sex-positive cultures in Africa in the spread of AIDS, and how conservative religious outsiders and their view of sex, let alone AIDS, wasn't helping to craft a viable response.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution just women...........;
From: folk1e
Date: 21 Mar 08 - 05:49 PM

"if you are forced to share something so intimate whether through rape or prostitution where there's not much freedom of choice involved, then it is surely a much deeper violation than other forms of exploitation no matter how horrible"......... Gust Abbey J

This shows one form of (probably unintentional) bias!

Would it be definately worse for a girl forced to choose prostitution to fund her drug habbit ..... or for the little Indian girl "sold" as indentured worker for life (as her parents were) to pay an existing debt?

Me ...... I do not know! But I do not think you know much more than me!

And whilst I am on topic ..... do the rent boys not get a look in?

Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution just women...........;
From: Janie
Date: 21 Mar 08 - 08:07 PM

folk 1 e,

I have yet to figure out what your tuppence worth is. Until you made the statement Not always black and white is it?, I don't believe anyone was suggesting this is a simple topic, nor, until the post you made that included the above statement, do I think anyone was trying to turn this into a competition regarding "what is worse." Are you trying to assert that if something is 'worse', that something perhaps 'less worse' is OK?

From what very little I know about indenture in India, it sounds like it is often very brutal. Slavery is always brutal, and the terms of indentureship in India that I have read about (mostly about brick makers), would more accurately be called slavery. And as is always the case with slaves and those who are rendered powerless by society or circumstance, they are probably much more likely to experience sexual servitude and intentional physical and sexual abuse than occurs in other populations.

I also think you will find the percentages of men who have been raped or sexually assaulted is much, much lower across cultures, populations and demographics than for women. I think you will find far fewer men than women have experienced attempted sexual assault. I think that when a male addict desparate for a fix and with no money goes to a female drug dealer, she is not likely to unzip her pants and say, you want this rock, baby, you're gonna have to ....

Male addicts who commit crimes to feed their addiction tend to commit crimes against property. They may blame their addiction. They much less often blame themselves. They may, in recovery or in prison, castigate themselves for being stupid, feel bad for the pain they have caused their families or the trouble they have caused for themselves. They may feel ashamed of their actions. Some may feel shame about who they are or who they have become. Addicts, male or female, who commit crimes against property are just as likely to have come from reasonably functional families as from backgrounds of abuse and neglect. Female addicts who exchange sex for drugs are much more likely to have histories of childhood sexual abuse than are female addicts who do not have histories of abuse.

I very seriously doubt that as many teenage boys are pressured to have sex on a first date as are teenage girls. I doubt as many men are pressured to have sex by a date before some sort of emotional bond has been made as have women.

I doubt most men have had the experience, a number of times in their lives, of having their ass grabbed while waiting tables, their breast pinched on a subway, or a had a woman attempt to insinuate a hand down a shirt or the pants on a first kiss. Maybe times have changed a bunch since I was a teenager, but when I was in school, girls didn't whisper to one another or gather to pass around information about who, among the boys, 'put out' and who didn't.

I would bet that many fewer men than women have had the experience of saying "not tonight" to a partner, and then, two or three hours later, be abruptly awakened at 1:00 by a drunk, angry and entitled spouse either "taking their due", or screaming in rage.

And these are not men who are 'monsters,' necessarily. They do it, even some generally pretty decent and caring men, and women tolerate it, because of the attitudes that continue to pervade society. Those same attitudes, across cultures and across time, are what make prostitution pervasively exploitive of women.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution just women...........;
From: Big Mick
Date: 21 Mar 08 - 08:42 PM

I had intended for this thread to be a discussion among women. I seriously doubt that folk1e is a woman. I am sorry about that. I wish that the discussion would stay on the track that it was on. I was gaining some wonderful insights from just reading and pondering what was being said.

All the best,

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution just women...........;
From: folk1e
Date: 21 Mar 08 - 09:28 PM

I seriously doubt that folk1e is a woman.

Correct ..... OK I'll stay out of it now.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution just women...........;
From: Janie
Date: 21 Mar 08 - 09:48 PM

Sorry, Mick.


prostitute

courtesan

courtesan - read through the wikipedia comments

Courtier

Interesting to note, when I search for definition of the masculine http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&rls=com.microsoft:en-us:IE-SearchBox&rlz=1I7TSHB&sa=X&oi=spell&resnum=0&ct=result&cd=1&q=cortegiano+definition&spell=1

and when I search for definition of the feminine cortegiana

Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution just women...........;
From: Janie
Date: 21 Mar 08 - 09:54 PM

Bad time to screw up a link. Compare the google results of cortegiana with the google results of cortegiano

Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution just women...........;
From: Janie
Date: 21 Mar 08 - 10:11 PM

Words both reflect and shape attitudes.

sex worker

Moving in a different direction, but not there yet. Still equated with prostitute.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution just women...........;
From: Janie
Date: 21 Mar 08 - 10:45 PM

If and when women (and men) can freely and reasonably safely choose to follow careers as sex workers, a time might come when it is not exploitive.

However, we humans are not exempt from certain biological and evolutionary imperatives. Mores and values that have evolved (or devolved) around sex have significant biological justifications when one considers reproduction, long gestation, low birthrates relative to many other mammal species, and the long childhood of humans and what is required to maximize the chances of survival to reproductive age,combined with our dependence on social groups for survival.

We are talking two-edged swords here. That is where the frontal cortex could stand to come more strongly into play than it does.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution just women...........;
From: katlaughing
Date: 22 Mar 08 - 12:19 AM

Excellent posts, Janie. Thank you.

Thanks, Art, for the info about the movie. I see I can watch it instantly at netflix!

Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution just women...........;
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 22 Mar 08 - 05:52 AM

I would just like to deny the rumour that I am in fact a good time boy, an easy lay and anybody's for a bar of chocolate and set of guitar strings.

The guitar strings are quite unnecessary.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution just women...........;
From: Penny S.
Date: 22 Mar 08 - 09:22 AM

Just after I first read this thread, I came across some figures in the paper about the johns. It was in reference to the case from Ipswich. Apparently about 11% of men in the UK use, or have used, prostitutes. Of these, the majority are married men, often with children.

I don't know the methodology of the collection of these figures.

It raises, however, the question of why they feel the need - a friend has suggested they were not getting the sort of sex at home they wanted, but that raises the question of why that was, as well.

It also raises the question of the other victims. The wife is at risk of infection. The family as a unit is losing resources which arguably belong to it. Money which is spent on a prostitute is not being spent on the family, is it? These men are cheats and adulterers, whose understanding of marriage is as flawed as their understanding of women as human beings rather than chattels.

The other men, who are not in relationships for various reasons, are often held up as the reason for the need for the supply of sex for payment, are the few, and should not be used to excuse those who are in relationships.

Penny

Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution just women...........;
From: Big Mick
Date: 22 Mar 08 - 09:39 AM

I would like to insert a few questions to spur the discussion, if it's alright?

Last night, in the US, on ABC they did a 2 hour show on prostitution that ran the gamut from the seediest street corners to the legal brothels in Nevada, to the upper reaches like what we saw in New York. In the minds of the Mudcat women, is there a case for legalization, with controls and safeguards? Since the legalization and monitoring in Nevada over 20 years ago, there has not been a single case of HIV among the women that work there. The women make good money, but the house seems to take a pretty good bite of that. If these kinds of controls are in place, could this be a case for "womens empowerment" that hg was referring to?

I guess I am asking if there is a case among women for legalization? Do you all feel there is ever a right way for that to happen?

Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution just women...........;
From: jacqui.c
Date: 22 Mar 08 - 04:50 PM

I think there is a good case for legalisation. If it is working in Nevada and in Amsterdam why shouldn't it work elsewhere. I would think that it would make the women safer as well as clients could be regulated to some degree, without the need for a pimp.

I would not have wanted to be in that position but, for those who must or who choose to, anything that will keep them safer has to be a good thing.

Legalising prostitution could go hand in hand with making pimping and kerb crawling more serious offences.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution just women...........;
From: katlaughing
Date: 22 Mar 08 - 07:47 PM

I agree, Jacqui. Legalised has got to be better than not, imo, esp. if it is done as Mick says they reported in Nevada, where the cases of HIV are so low, etc. I suppose it could be seen as some sort of empowerment IF a woman had other realistic choices for employment, IF she had a contract with provisions for getting out whenever she wanted. Also, if we legalised it, it should be treated as real employment with benefits, etc. (I know, hope that will be so for ALL of us, soon!) I still don't see it as empowerment over men through the act of sex, though, if that is what hg meant, Mick. Not sure what she said exactly.

I have a sort of related question: do women use male prostitutes? If so, are there any studies which say if they are married, etc.? I know there are escort services, but are the men expected to "put out" and do the women do that? I would think they would feel just as vulnerable as sex with any man they just met, except that it is a company they've called for the "escort." Women can have healthy sexual appetites as much as men and get as frustrated or lonely. I have some friends who have what they call "fuck-buddies" who seem content to use each other in a sexual, no-strings-attached kind of way. It seems crude, but honest, realistic and somewhat healthy. Of course one of them might develop an emotional attachment which could cause bliss or make them both miserable. I don't know, just kind of thinking out loud here.

There was one time when I was a young, divorced mother of two surviving on minimum wage, living on my parents' property in a trailer home. I had a really nice male friend whom I was sexual with on occasion. We also just enjoyed nights out, camping with my kids and other totally non-sexual things. He was just out of a marriage, older than I, and a genuinely nice person. (It was him I turned to when an ex-boyfriend came over drunk one night when I was all alone and raped me.)

He and I were out at a fairly upscale lounge having drinks one night. I was 21 23 and *hot*, size 7, dressed to the nines, etc. This was when silver and turquoise jewellery was the big rage in the West. A jewellery salesman came over to me when my friend was getting us more drinks and offered me any piece of silver and turquoise jewellery he had in his showcase IF I would go back to his room with him. I was flattered, shocked, and annoyed. It was fun to flirt with him just a little bit; it did give me a sense of power over him, sort of, at that moment, knowing he desired me. I didn't understand all of this at the time, of course, except the way I felt. I told him "no" which more importantly in my mind, ALSO made me feel powerful. When my friend came back I told him what had happened. We then went round the room, looking at the various single men trying to suss out just what they might spend to have a night with me. It was done as a lark and did not go any further. I had complete trust, well-placed, in my friend and we left quite safely, together.

That incident did get me to thinking a few times when I had nothing to buy heating oil with and other times when it was just damn hard to be a young, single mom with two little ones. That was the closest I ever came to thinking about prostituting myself. Fortunately, I always had a good, secure self-image, thanks to my parents and family and, also thanks to them, some help over the difficult times, so I never had to make that choice. I know I was very, very fortunate.

kat

Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution just women...........;
From: Janie
Date: 22 Mar 08 - 08:51 PM

I agree that sex work should be legal work, but I think careful attention would need paid to the details regarding laws. I don't know anything about the different legalization laws and regulations where it has been legalized, but they apparently vary a great deal, and some result in better protection for both the workers and the customers than others.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution just women...........;
From: GUEST,Appaloosa Lady
Date: 23 Mar 08 - 05:38 AM

Maybe we need to legalise 'Love'

Then we could have discussions on it, government think tanks on it, official papers and books written about it, millions spent on it, a flood of media reporting on it.

We could teach our children about it too.

Maybe then we'd get to understand why it's all gone so wrong, how we've turned away from it, how love has been replaced by sex for so many young people, how compassion has been rubbed out by de-sensitisation. Maybe we'd take a look at ourselves, as a species, and see we need to change, need to care far more.

Maybe, if we have Legal Love then daughters, mothers, sisters, wouldn't *need* to be 'legalised' for sex?

Maybe then, they wouldn't have to ever think of selling their bodies to pay the bills, feed their children. Maybe they wouldn't be exploited by complete bastards (both male and female) who see them as nothing more than a way to make money.

Maybe the men who use them, wouldn't have to, because they'd have love in their lives too.

And those who purely love sex for Sex's Sake would be free to have that with one another, without money being attached, just honesty, freedom and total enjoyment.

The Legalisation Of Love.....it could be a Revolution.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution just women...........;
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 23 Mar 08 - 06:34 AM

Too late for our generation, but it would be nice if someone somewhere was working to give our children a more balanced view of human realtionships - working with the same vigour that religious extremists are working on promoting repression and brutality.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution just women...........;
From: jacqui.c
Date: 23 Mar 08 - 08:12 AM

Maybe we need to legalise 'Love'

If it were possible to legalise it it would not be love.

Love is something that we have to give with no thought of return, otherwise it is not love. It can't be bought or sold, it can't be quantified - it just is and, if you can't feel it there is no way that you can be taught to feel it. It can't be faked either, in the way that pleasure in the sexual act can be.

Love is a personal, internal emotion and, whilst one might be able to put on a facade of loving someone else, you can't fool yourself and, IMHO, the stress of keeping that facade going for any length of time has got to be overwhelming.

We can try to teach our children tolerance of others and to always try to look for the good in other people but in our imperfect world there will always be some who are incapable of sustaining the emotion for any period of time, if at all. There are others who have been so hurt by previous relationships that they will not let their guard down and allow love in any more - I have a couple of friends in the situation. For those, maybe there is a need for a sexual outlet that doesn't involve an emotional tie, that just satisfies the normal sexual urge that most of us have.

I can see some good reasons for the use of sex workers (prostitute seems like the wrong word for this) of both sexes and sexual orientation. Just make it a safer and, maybe, less reviled occupation.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution just women...........;
From: GUEST,Appaloosa Lady
Date: 23 Mar 08 - 08:27 AM

Exactly Jacqui...

And *that* is why it should be 'legalised' because then, *then* the message that we have, for so very long, *lost* would maybe once again start to get out there, as people started to 'discuss love'...as it was taken up by schools.

I see older children, for that is what they are, of 12/13 flaunting themselves in a way that would bring in the kerb-crawlers...I see two generations of children who have been 'groomed' by an 'industry' and by an apathetic world that is too tired and stressed out to care.

I do not see children who know about love, or self-respect, or simply 'being a child'.

UNICEF has said the children in the UK are the unhappiest in the world, our teachers over here have *finally*, this very week, stood up en masse at their National Conference and said that many children are anxious, depressed and suffering from mental health issues, they are now demanding a government enquiry!

That is not needed!

It is the breakdown of our society, the overwhelming pressure of 'school' and also 'sex' that is poured down upon our children from every angle that has robbed them of their childhood! That and being constantly tested at school, constantly judged by their peers.
Their families have been replaced by 'gangs' of their so-called pals.
You rarely see Mum and Dad, Mum/Dad out with their older children, just packs of 12/13/14 years olds, roaming the streets, most of whom are dressed like prostitutes touting for a night's business.

It is only a tiny step for them, from their so-called 'childhood' to one of prostitution, for they have no roots, no self-respect, no idea of who they are. They are well-versed in every sexual disease though, every form of contraception, every conceivable 'position', they know how to find porn on the internet, hear it in their songs, their music..everywhere they turn they are surrounded by it.

Yet WHERE has Love gone?

If we do not do something fast, then we will have created a nation of young women who will prostitute themselves for nothing! Not even enjoyment...just misery and a depression that has been there since they were old enough to realise that there is no childhood allowed anymore, by those who have sought to remove it, for monetary gain.

There will be no love, because it has been replaced with a physical act, one which holds no magic, no joy, no incredible sense of well-being.

The bastards who have done this at the expense of a nation's children, have also done it whilst the nation has turned it's back and walked away.

So...Legalise Love...for God's Sake!

Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution just women...........;
From: GUEST,Appaloosa Lady
Date: 23 Mar 08 - 08:34 AM

And tell me....where does 'The Sex Worker' go at the end of her/his day?

When their bodies have been used by hundreds, perhaps thousands of others, depending on the length of their 'careers'...how do they feel?

Sex for its own sake, with someone you know, even if you may not love them, still carries *some* warmth, I would imagine, but with a total stranger?

And how does the stranger feel? Satisfied? Loved? Cared about? Or Lonely? Desperate? Angry? Repulsed?

Does 'Sex Work' truly do either side any good at all?

Just being Devil's Advocate here....

Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution just women...........;
From: GUEST,Appaloosa Lady
Date: 23 Mar 08 - 09:07 AM

The toys are little girls are playing with, right now!


Ask yourself "WHY?"

Then ask yourselves what sort of people would want to saturate our girl children with these toys? Why they would design an entire industry around them, clothes, make-up, school lunch boxes, nightwear, magazines, bed-linen, films, books, writing and colouring pencils/birthday cards..It's ALL out there in your local High St. Store.

Then, stand on any street pavement and watch, as the real-life Bratz Dolls flaunt themsevles in exactly the same way their 'dolls' do.

Is it 'retribution' by some men for 'feminism' I wonder?

Is it that paedophiles have realised that the toy industry is a great place to be?

Is it that they also realise the music industry is a great place to be?

Is it that they realise the sex industry is a great place to be?

Then, phone up the Bratz Doll people themselves and listen to what they tell you. I hope you'll be as sickened as I was.


And don't condemn a woman to prostitution by legalising her! Get her OUT of one pair of blue stockings and into another, but make them blue stockings that may just change her life in a way she never ever expected.

Put on Your Blue Stockings, baby, for we're going up in the world tonight!


New Blue Stockings - by The Rainbow Chasers

(Written by Ashley Hutchings & Mark Hutchinson)

Back in seventeen sixty two
When ladies stockings turned to blue
London men were shocked to find
That a woman really had a mind

Mayfair salons caught the mood
Of ladies from a different brood
Who'd meet to talk of art and books
And lay aside their roles as cooks

Through the nineteenth century
Through Oxford and through Bloomsbury
The Movement changed along the way
Which brings us to the present day

Lift your fine bone china
There's no group that's finer
Bringing comfort to the sane
The New Blue Stockings are here again

Music lessons, painting too
Arty things to see and do
At a lecture or museum
This is where you'll often see 'em
Taking tea and writing prose
Is so much better goodness knows
Then getting smashed and falling down
In the clubbing parts of town

Lift your fine bone china
There's no group that's finer
Bringing comfort to the sane
The New Blue Stockings are here again

Dress demure but never prim
You're a Her, you're not a Him
Vintage jewellery will say
'Stylish' in a modest way

So if you're out to stretch your mind
And change your outlook, go and find
Stockings of a different hue
Common sense says make them blue

Lift your fine bone china
There's no group that's finer
Bringing comfort to the sane
The New Blue Stockings are here again

Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution just women...........;
From: GUEST,Appaloosa Lady
Date: 23 Mar 08 - 09:59 AM

Very true, but then tell me John, how do you *stop* children from seeing what is on the shelves, in the magazines, on TV, in the cinema adverts? Have you seen cinema adverts recently, often in children's films too??? HOW do you stop them from hearing what their friends are talking about, seeing what toys *they* are playing with, watching their DVDs, playing their computer games, when they go round to one another's houses?

It's a pressure that our parents *never* had.

You cannot stop children from seeing these toys, nor the images that abound, all around them, nor stop them from listening to the music, so endemic has it now become. You can blame parents all you want, and believe you me, I'm with you on that one, in so many cases, but it is not *entirely* down to the parents.

This is a problem that the whole of society has to learn to deal with. The question is, will they bother?

Women should not have to view 'prostitution' as a 'career' surely? Or have we reached that stage now? Have we sold the souls of others to a very dodgy place, purely on behalf of those who seek to use them for their own satisfaction? And do we relieve ourselves of any guilt about it all by simply 'legalising' it, then walking self-righteously away, whilst saying "That's MUCH better! At least the girls are 'protected' now from AIDS"

?????????

Every prostitute was once an innocent little girl, she had hopes, visions, dreams for her future....she still has feelings, just like you or me, no matter how deep she has hidden them. Her dreams may have shattered into a million pieces, her innoncence may have died a thousand times over..but she is still in there *somewhere*, that child, that person, the fellow human.

We turn away from what is happening to our children, what they are being surrounded by, at our own peril, but more importantly, at theirs!   

Phone up Woolworths, Toys R Us, Next, Gap, Etams...complain about the clothes our kids are being put in, the toys they are selling them, often there is now very little choice. You will find you usually hit a wall of apathy or non-belief...or you'll be given the age-old excuse "But children have always dressed as their parents have. Little girls LOVE to dress in this underwear, because their mothers do" "Little girls love the Bratz, they're our major seller!"

Yeah right!

And there-in lies a big part of the problem. If an older generation can see *nothing* wrong with how there girls are behaving, because that is how they themselves were groomed to behave, dresse, pout, wiggle etc....then what hope lies out there for the next generation, the babies of the Real Life Bratz Dolls?

Oh..and The Bratz already have a range of Bratz Babies, who wiggle and jiggle, show off their tummies, stick out their chests and pout.
The Bratz people have toned down their site a little now, they've removed some of the more overtly sexual images and words, but it still is deeply, darkly worrying.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution just women...........;
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 23 Mar 08 - 10:14 AM

All parents have been subject to pester power throughout time. The difference now is that the choice is larger, the average parent richer, and the average child less well behaved.
As a starting point, I would suggest that if a parent has to borrow money, or go without essentials, to buy their child a toy, then they are not being good parents.
The bad examples that sets to the child are endless, from getting the idea that it's OK to borrow for non essentials, to the thought that they can get anything they want on that basis.

G

Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution just women...........;
From: GUEST,Appaloosa Lady
Date: 23 Mar 08 - 10:24 AM

I think you're maybe missing the point John. But I'll leave this thread to others now..

Sorry if I've taken it off thread a bit, Mick, but...there is a connection.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution just women...........;
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 23 Mar 08 - 10:35 AM

The point Lizzie, is that the parent is in the end responsible for how the child grows up, and to that end they do it no favours by indulging it.
The exploitation would not work unless gullible people allowed themselves to be gulled.
It might also help if while a child is under the age of criminal responsibility, the parent/s were made legally responsible for that child's actions.
Too many parents abdicate responsibility for their children's actions, and bribe them with cash and goodies in order to have a peaceful life.

G

Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution just women...........;
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 23 Mar 08 - 11:10 AM

Give me a break!

Appaloosa lady said

It is the breakdown of our society, the overwhelming pressure of 'school' and also 'sex' that is poured down upon our children from every angle that has robbed them of their childhood! That and being constantly tested at school, constantly judged by their peers.
Their families have been replaced by 'gangs' of their so-called pals.

[snip]

Phone up Woolworths, Toys R Us, Next, Gap, Etams...complain about the clothes our kids are being put in, the toys they are selling them, often there is now very little choice. You will find you usually hit a wall of apathy or non-belief...


Society is composed of individuals.

If your children turned out to be sexual mobsters in their early teen years you have no one but yourself to blame. Parents hold the upper hand when it comes to the amount of influence on their children if they have a mind to and aren't too busy being children themselves or being distracted or pals with their kids. They can control the amount of television, the after school activities and who their children play with. They can give their children a childhood by not oversubscribing their lives. They can give their children reasonable choices and role models that eliminate the trash dressing and gang behavior.

They do this by establishing a generous but firm and fair and loving relationship from the very beginning and being there when it matters. They can serve as role models for their children's friends and be there as a safe adult to talk to for that peer group.

As children get older parents help them make choices, you're still there, but your early work begins to pay off in their choices as an autonomous individual. Stuff still happens, but abdication of responsibility is something that can be blamed on parents, not kids, not society. Schools used to offer parenting classes, part of health classes. Now they're busy offering classes to pass the stupid tests that don't test anything except your ability to take that test. So if some of that verbiage above addressed that (I started skipping through after a while, it was too much) then we agree on one thing. But it doesn't have to do with prostitution.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution just women...........;
From: GUEST,Appaloosa Lady
Date: 23 Mar 08 - 02:07 PM

"Society is composed of individuals."

No. That is where you are wrong. There is now a dwindling number of 'individuals' in this 1984 society, where so very many no longer think for themselves. They have been conditioned not to. Society has become one huge monster, that does what it is told from the cradle to the grave, in many instances. Individuality can no longer flourish in our schools, where all are driven to be the same, achieve the same, learn the same. It can no longer flourish through music, for this has been narrowed and dumbed down, with diversity being almost forbidden these days within mainstream media.

"...But it doesn't have to do with prostitution."

You wanna bet?

Apologies for the followig 'verbiage' SRS..but...


"If your children turned out to be sexual mobsters in their early teen years you have no one but yourself to blame."

Er..mine didn't. They're not.

But...many are and there's no denying that. Put the responsibility wherever you choose, but we never grew up with the external pressures that are now ladled upon so many of our children. Do you think that it's OK for 12 year olds to be sexually provocative then? I don't. And hey, if today we accept that, by saying "Oh, kids have always been this way, it was like that when we were young" (crap, it wasn't) or "It's just the way the world is these days" (crap, crap, that is simply a get out of responsibility).. then soon we'll be 'accepting' 11 year olds having sex, (although some already are) then 10 year olds (ditto) The age will become ever younger. Bloomin' terrifying. Something's gone hellishly wrong, many things actually, not JUST parents, but I agree that is one *major* thing.

And yes, of COURSE it has a lead into prostitution because if you've been giving your body to any Tom, Dick or Harry, from when you were very, very young, then you ain't gonna have any trouble worrying about selling your body when you're a bit older, because you're already left with no self-respect or sense of self-worth, after being passed around by many, giving yourself so lightly..etc.

In the past year, 17 young people have committed suicide in Bridgend, Glamorgan. It's thought they became obsessed by a website, but young people don't just take their lives so easily, not unless there is a deep unhappiness at the very core of their being. Bridgend is the reason why the teachers of the UK have *finally* opened their eyes and are now screaming from the rafters about what is happening to our young people.

And if we start to tell young people that being a Sex Worker is an OK profession, simply because it's now 'legalised' well, to me, that's just one more nail in the coffin, and one more coffin to be added to the nearly EIGHT HUNDRED COFFINS now being filled with British youngsters who are taking their own lives every single year at present...and that number is on the increase.

The Bridgend Suicides


So maybe don't 'skip bits' SRS. And no need to tell me about being a parent, for I took my kids out of school, when I saw their spirits being destroyed. I broke the circle, broke the rules, but it's a bloody hard circle to break. And it leaves your child often confused and alone, because they don't want to go out 'hunting' men in packs on a Saturday night, or having sex up against the wall on a Tuesday evening, with a complete and utter stranger, only vaguely remembered through a drunken haze. They don't want to talk about sex and alcohol and nowt else. It's happening in every single UK city throughout the land, on a very, very regular basis, and all you have to do, if you don't believe me, is simply go into your local city/town around 11.30pm and look around.

So many of this nation's children are already 'Sex Workers' in their own way. And I believe it's leaving them with the emptiest and most aching of spirits, for they have no idea what Love even is and therefore more and more are choosing to leave this world as fast as they can, and that is something that should alarm and shame us all.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution just women...........;
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 23 Mar 08 - 02:34 PM

Inquest Coroner rules out links between suicides at inquest!

Like it or not Lizzie, SRS is dead right in what she says, and linking things together like this, between bad taste toys, which wouldn't sell if parents didn't buy them, and prostitution at a later age, is over reaction in spades.

G

Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution just women...........;
From: GUEST,Appaloosa Lady
Date: 23 Mar 08 - 04:19 PM

Yeah, you're obviously right John. So is SRS.

Our kids have never been happier. They're not out there sexing it up every single night, they're not out there killing themselves, they're not out there getting stoned out of their heads, they're not out there spewing up their souls on our pavements. They're not carrying weapons into school to protect themselves.

It's ALL to do with parents. Silly me.

And of course, not one of those young girls, who's been having it away with the lads since she was around 10/11/12 years old, would *ever* end up as a prostitute. Not a hope in hell of that ever happening, for she feels really wonderful about herself doesn't she?

But...maybe it was because of the other 12 kids the coroner didn't mention that I was confused. Or maybe it was because I don't always believe that coroners/judges/police/lawyers/teachers are right. Maybe it was the two kids who were my daughter's school colleagues, who killed themselves when they were just 17. Maybe it's the conversations I've heard from so many youngsters, maybe it's the anxiety I hear when they talk to me, about how hopeless they feel, how lost. Maybe it's the games I heard other kids playing with my kids, when they were only 9, games that would take your breath away in horror at what those 9 year old heads were filled with. (my kids heads weren't filled with it, until that moment, when I interceded) Maybe it's because three completely unrelated people have told me at seperate times, in a matter of months, entirely of their own accord, that if they had their time over again, they'd not choose to bring children into this world. Maybe it's because so many young lads see girls these days as nothing more than sex objects and the girls are only too pleased to reinforce that.

Yeah, you're dead right. I'm over-reacting. Time for me to stick my head under the apathy blanket again and realise that this will all just go away of its own accord, and to remember that 'it's someone else's problem' and of course, that it's not really happening in the first place.

And who knows, maybe, just maybe they'll include 'Sex Workers' on the National Curriculum, so our kids can learn all about a new legalised career and maybe decide to get a job themselves in it, where they can make excellent money and feel really good about themselves. After all, they've been doing that kind of 'work' for a very long time, so they're way up in the Job Experience side of things.

Yeah...........so long as a woman's 'career' as a prostitute is legalised and given the politically correct label of 'sex worker' then everything will be OK for her.

Can't imagine why I didn't get that first time round..

Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution just women...........;
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 23 Mar 08 - 05:01 PM

Rhetorically speaking you're off the charts, Appaloosa Lady. Start sorting instead of lumping all of the mishmash of stuff you're blaming for a world gone wrong and maybe you'll "get it."

"Society is composed of individuals."

No. That is where you are wrong. There is now a dwindling number of 'individuals' in this 1984 society, where so very many no longer think for themselves.

You're detecting the absence of critical thinking skills. But they're absent in your assessment also. Stand back and look at where you can make the difference, and it's clear.

It starts with parents. How much simpler can I make it? If parents don't set the example, buy the good toys, watch the good programs, read to their children, pay attention to the kids at playtime, and participate in their children's education and school, then problems erupt. No one's perfect, but you can do a darned good job if you learn to put your children first.

A woman in Dallas last week threw her two boys off of a freeway overpass, then jumped herself. Astonishingly, all survived. She blamed her boys for her inability to keep a boyfriend, and was so depressed she tried to kill them all.

What's wrong with this picture? She doesn't have much education or self-esteem, a byproduct of her upbringing, no doubt. She doesn't understand that the boyfriend isn't the most important thing in her life, those boys are. Were. She'll be in prison and they'll be in foster care.

It comes down to parents. And learning to be a good parent.

Our corporate, for-profit world makes it very difficult. And the trash we buy and subject ourselves to is part of the problem. There's a declutter thread going where a lot of us are trying to streamline our lives after amassing too much stuff, even if it is good quality stuff. Only in our modern society do we give "personhood" to corporations (giving them a great deal of leeway to continue to do harm with few if any consequences), but we can't abdicate our parental roles to the marketplace.

Prostitution is a business transaction between consenting adults. If it happens between minors and adults, it is a crime and isn't called prostitution. Self-esteem is just one issue of many contributing to this profession. Between minors, sex is often a crime, usually in which the boy is charged. There are problems with this outcome, because in the American society sexual frankness is not a long suit. (Think Cathy Trask in East of Eden). Other Western cultures do a much better job of teaching their young people about sexual behavior and responsibility.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution just women...........;
From: GUEST,Appaloosa Lady
Date: 23 Mar 08 - 06:47 PM

Probably best to read my earlier posts SRS...it's all in there.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution just women...........;
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 23 Mar 08 - 08:12 PM

Sorry, can't. Too much saccharine makes me ill.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution just women...........;
From: Amos
Date: 23 Mar 08 - 08:30 PM

PRostitution is legal in two areas I know of -- Holland and sections of Nevada. Are there and statitics about the suicide rates of men and women in these two areas since they established these rules?



A

Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution just women...........;
From: Big Mick
Date: 23 Mar 08 - 08:47 PM

I would remind you, gentlemen, that I would prefer that this be a discussion between the ladies. I surely don't mind you posing a question, but your opinions really aren't appropriate. I would prefer it stay among the women as to the stated opinions, and men restricted to asking questions that help you understand womens views on it. Kindly hold your opinions or start another thread. Thanks, guys.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution just women...........;
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 24 Mar 08 - 12:10 AM

He asked a question that might shed light on another aspect, though. Depression and self-loathing--are they factors to be considered? Trouble with trying to tease out results are, are the women and the customers all local, and are the suicide numbers significantly higher or lower for that locality? Probably no way to get numbers on this. Does the census ask about illegal employment to compare to legal employment? Not likely.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution just women...........;
From: GUEST,Appaloosa Lady
Date: 24 Mar 08 - 08:02 AM

"Depression and self-loathing--are they factors to be considered?"

Sigh!

Of COURSE they are! That's what I've been rabbitting on about for *ages* above, and now, see below.

"It starts with parents. How much simpler can I make it?.......
A woman in Dallas last week threw her two boys off of a freeway overpass, then jumped herself. Astonishingly, all survived. She blamed her boys for her inability to keep a boyfriend, and was so depressed she tried to kill them all. What's wrong with this picture? She doesn't have much education or self-esteem, a byproduct of her upbringing, no doubt. She doesn't understand that the boyfriend isn't the most important thing in her life, those boys are. Were. She'll be in prison and they'll be in foster care."



What's wrong with this picture?

No-one cared. That's what's wrong with that picture.

And...it's a picture that probably fits for many, many prostitutes as well.

It's so *easy* to judge isn't it? To self-righteously tut-tut and say "What a terrible, selfish, self-obsessed woman!" or "She's chosen to be a prostitute, she's a consenting adult, so she can get on with it" "If only every one was a perfect parent like I am, then society wouldn't have these problems"

Crap.

Let me get one thing straight first though. If someone is perfectly happy being a prostitute, then that is fine by me. That is their choice and their life. It's the ones who are *trapped* in prostitution, that I'm talking about.

Sorry, but I too love my children, have done from before they were even born. I have nurtured them, supported them, done everything a good parent can do. They know they are loved, above all else, they know that. But...they are living in a world gone haywire.

What you are missing out on here is that it's already too late for many children. They are already deeply depressed and they already self-loathe and loathe this world.

The horrendous toys are already in their childish imagination, the violent computer games are in their older heads, the alcohol industry is in their liver, the drug industry is in their bloodstream, the paedeophilic music industry is in their spirit and the sex industry is in their soul. And all of them preying on our children every single day. I know kids from 'good families' (that relates to them being loved, not backgrounds) who've still 'gone off the rails' because they cannot cope with all that is happening around them.

Yes it starts with parents, of course it does. BUT, it starts with a hell of a lot more as well.

It starts with society giving parents time to BE parents, *encouraging* them to be mothers/fathers and **valuing** that profession to the utmost, instead of denigrating it, as has happened so much these past two decades. Occupation? Mother! It's a full-time job. But you try putting that on a form and people look at you as if you're mad.

Happiness starts with children knowing they are loved. But, imo, it can only *continue* with some of the following.

A school system that doesn't constantly test, examine, judge, pass or fail. Teachers who want to, and who are *permitted* to uplift every child as much as they are able. It needs a government that pours money into education in the *right* way, creating a huge lake of brilliant teachers, who can teach small pools of children in an almost 'family' atmosphere, and who then back off those teachers entirely, letting them teach in the way they *know* works.

Happiness continues with children being able to spend the majority of their day in a beautiful place, rather than a crappy, old, run-down, grey building, which often feels more like a prison.

It is nurtured by them being in a place where they become totally inspired, where they feel *very* safe, valued and special, where they are allowed to develop a love of learning that will last a lifetime, where the lesson of self-respect, and respect for others, is considered the *most* important subject they will ever learn.

It is helped along hugely by a media who finally realise that if all you report is BAD things, then you will get a depressed population who come to believe that there is only horror, sorrow and sod all out there, so what's the point in life?!

It grows ever stronger with a music industry that needs to sort itself out BIGTIME and remove those with paedeophilic beliefs from their industry, entirely.

It blossoms with a TV and Film industry who realise the absolute jewel they have, to teach, inspire, create programmes and films of such value, bringing people together, and who finally hang their heads in absolute shame at what they have allowed to happen these past 20 years or more, with the violence and dumbing down that has invaded the souls of so many!

Happiness is able to breathe more freely with an alcohol industry that is made to act responsibly, that is fined for the terrible damage it's doing...and with young people being educated about it.

It is supported with local government refusing planning permission for yet more pubs and clubs, so that you don't end up with nearly 400 (!!!) in a tiny area, as has happened in Nottingham, where the police can no longer cope.

It flourishes with children mixing with ALL age groups, instead of the insanity of just one-age group, and with our schools becoming places of learning for *everyone* because that way adults are no longer 'the enemy'. Let us all live and learn alongside each other, in all age groups. It is the natural way.

It reaches a good point with schools laying off the pressure on parents for their children to 'achieve' so that many parents no longer lay that pressure and anxiety on their child.

It lives, with ALL of society treating our children with love, care and compassion, so that they have the right start in life, which will enable them to become empathetic and compassionate adults.

But most of all, happiness can only start when *some* people have taken on board, that right now, in this age we are living in, there are hundreds of thousands of kids who literally *cannot* cope and who see this world as a grim place, where no-one cares, where there is no love and no future.

The depression and self-loathing starts very early these days, driven by a society that has, quite frankly, in many places around the world, collectively 'lost its marbles'

So please, don't tell me that the prositute is always in a perfectly happy 'business transaction between two consenting adults'...because I will take you inside her, to a very different 'inside' that her customers will see. I will take you to the broken child, the one who perhaps didn't have 'the perfect parents' or 'the perfect start in life', the one who 'didn't leave school with 10 GCSEs and 4 A* A Levels, simply because her mind may work in a very different way, a way that her parents or teachers never understood and so she has been left flailing around in a world that has branded her a 'failure' and has taken that step into prostitution, a step that she may never be able to step back from.

I will take you to that woman on the bridge too, if you want, and to her incomprehensible despair.

But you would see it as saccharine.

"Sorry, can't. Too much saccharine makes me ill."

Yet...maybe, just maybe, you *have* hit upon something, with your comment above, for a big part of what is going SO wrong, is that society has lost its sweetness. We seem to have become so very bitter, to each other and about one another. And yes, sweet words now make many recoil, because they are almost alien to them. Many women take pride in calling themselves 'bitches' and in behaving accordingly...Why?

We have a great deal of damage to repair. But it will not get repaired until ALL stratas of society come together, acknowledge the problems EXIST and then, work together to solve them.

I'm living in hope that now the teachers are finally standing up for the children, and saying that so many are suffering from anxiety and mental problems, that many other things may start to change.

Unless we change, then so many of our girls will continue to see themselves as 'sex babes' and so many of our boys will continue to see those girls as nothing more than sex objects.

Is this what we want for our children?



And WHO 'created' the first 'prostitute'?

Was it man, or woman?

Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution just women...........;
From: jacqui.c
Date: 24 Mar 08 - 09:34 AM

Lizzie

In a perfect world everything that you say makes a lot of sense. Unfortunately we live in the real world, where the money to put into practice your ideas is NEVER going to be made available, no matter how much we want it, as governments will always find other ways to use it and the general population will squeal if they have to pay more taxes to get it.

We live in a world where you have to pass a test to drive a car but where anyone, regardless of their suitability, can have a child and raise it and where, unless you really do go over the top with neglect or cruelty, no-one is going to interfere with the raising of that child. Can you imagine the outcry if we had to prove that we could be good parents before being allowed to procreate?

This is not a new phenomenon. We have slightly more safety nets now than was the case in earlier centuries, but there are always going to be the unfortunates who will not have good parental guides and who will, for whatever reason, find themselves in a situation where selling their bodies seems to be the only option that they have. I wish it were not so, but wishing won't make it so. In those circumstances it would surely be preferable that the working conditions for these people were made as safe and secure as was possible.

That doesn't interfere with your dream - it just makes reality a little bit safer for those who need it.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution just women...........;
From: GUEST,Appaloosa Lady
Date: 24 Mar 08 - 10:38 AM

"In a perfect world everything that you say makes a lot of sense."

No Jacqui, my words only make sense in an *imperfect* world.

"..Unfortunately we live in the real world, where the money to put into practice your ideas is NEVER going to be made available, no matter how much we want it, as governments will always find other ways to use it and the general population will squeal if they have to pay more taxes to get it..."

It actually would take very *little* money to put those ideas into practice, other than having thousands more teachers, and a huge amount of new schoools, all of which were run with a brand new philosophy. The money that would be saved by Governments in once again leaving it to teachers to teach, would be enormous. The money saved on trying to rescue this deeply broken society would be far, far greater.

If we, the population, are content to sit back and do nothing then of course, nothing will ever change. We are the engine that drives the machine..and if enough of us stand together to demand the machine is driven in a very different way, then you may be amazed at what might happen.

"This is not a new phenomenon"

*Never* have our children been so sexualised, as they now are. *Never* have parents had so much pressure on them. It is way past time to stop worrying and way into time to be doing something.

"...but there are always going to be the unfortunates who will not have good parental guides and who will, for whatever reason, find themselves in a situation where selling their bodies seems to be the only option that they have. I wish it were not so, but wishing won't make it so...

Exactly. So maybe it's time to stop wishing and change things right around. No woman should *ever* have to sell her body, unless she specifically has chosen to do that.

"..In those circumstances it would surely be preferable that the working conditions for these people were made as safe and secure as was possible..."

Emotionally, I doubt they will ever be safe, or secure, for every night they go to sleep knowing that the next day there will be yet more strangers inside their body, outside their body, all over their body. What dreams do they have? Are they merely to be labelled 'legalised sex workers' and just left to get on with it, but in a safer environment? Is there never to be any hope of a system coming into being which will say to them:

"If you want it, then let this be your life! Let us help you, care for you, whilst you learn, whilst you begin to really live your life, in a way you may have once dreamed about, before all this happened. Let us inspire you, find a different way of life for you, give you back your pride. Let us show you that *someone* cares about you."


If Everyone Cared - People Make Changes, not Governments
(you need to watch the end, in particular)

"DO NOT WAIT FOR LEADERS. DO IT ALONE. PERSON TO PERSON" - Mother Theresa

Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution just women...........;
From: Janie
Date: 24 Mar 08 - 01:27 PM

Lizzie,

I'm having difficulty figuring out the points you are trying to make as it relates to prostitution.

It seems to me the two main themes here are:
1. Generally speaking, is prostitution exploitive of women, and
2. Should prostitution be legalized.

I've made clear that I do think prostitution is exploitive of women, given the values and attitudes about women and sex that continue to be normative within most cultures. Others here disagree and either think normative values have changed to the point that the sale of sex is no longer exploitive of most women, or that social values are immaterial and prostitution is most accurately viewed through the lens of a capitalist business transaction. Others, and perhaps this is your position, Lizzie, though I can't be sure because of the lack of clarity with which you have written, is that sex for sale is morally wrong, whether or not it is exploitive. Some who treat it as morally wrong, understand their morals are values and beliefs. Some who view it as morally wrong do not distinquish values and beliefs from objective fact.

Regarding legalization, it is logical for those who view prostitution as non-exploitive or as simply a business transaction to advocate for legalization.

Among those of us who view it as exploitive, the question we have to ponder is whether or not legalization offers greater or lesser protection from exploitation. I'm inclined to think legal and regulated prostitution provides greater protection for prostitutes.

Among those who consider prostitution to be morally wrong, some will also consider the exploitation of women to be wrong, and may reluctantly advocate legalization as a means to offer some protection from exploitation. Others may worry that their particular society or culture steps onto a slippery slope when prostitution is legalized and may view it as either society condoning prostitution or opening the door for changes in values that they fear and see as morally corrupt and decandent.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution just women...........;
From: Janie
Date: 24 Mar 08 - 01:32 PM

Correction.

legalized and my view... should read may view.

BTW, I do not view sex for sale as inherently wrong, nor do I view it as inherently exploitive of women. But values, mores, norms and attitudes are part and parcel of who we are and how we see ourselves and others.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution just women...........;
From: jacqui.c
Date: 24 Mar 08 - 04:04 PM

Well said Janie.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution just women...........;
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 24 Mar 08 - 06:48 PM

Well said, Janie, indeed!

Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution just women...........;
From: GUEST,Nameless Mudcat Member
Date: 24 Mar 08 - 06:50 PM

Many of you say you have not met any man who will admit to using the services provided by a prostitute. I'll come out halfway (no name). I went to a prostitute in a long dry spell between relationships. It was in a place where the service was legal.

The working woman was young (maybe mid twenties) and sweet, very kind, and pleasant. Her working name was Belinda. She treated me with kindness and made me feel special. She played the part of a concerned lover very well. She told me about her son and that she enjoyed her job. We spent a long time talking. I knew it was an act but I let go of my disbelief for that time.

I admit that my experience is limited to that one time which makes my viewpoint somewhat skewed.

There is a book out there called Working Sex by a journalist who wrote several newspaper columns about the sex industry. She expanded her columns into a book that looks at the variety of services in the sex industry from prostitution to pornography to the newer web sites. I think the majority of our views come from an older time when women had less power and were more oppressed. I think that women will continue to be preyed upon until the services are legalized.

By the way, as I see it porn is also prostitution. The people just have sex with a limited clientele.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution just women...........;
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 24 Mar 08 - 07:13 PM

I suppose to hark back to films is one way to bring this view more into the open. One I saw probably 20 years ago was Cinderella Liberty, and had a young and matter of fact hooker who was in charge in that setting with the inexperienced young man (wasn't that Randy Quaid?), and The Last Picture Show--the book, at least; I haven't seen the film but I imagine that part was in it. That was an odd drive to a situation where the young men saw a culture of poor and powerless women who took this work as a matter of course and survival. The portrayals were of young men who weren't very worldly with women who were just women down on their luck and did the work to make ends meet. It was seamy but not judgemental.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution just women...........;
From: Janie
Date: 24 Mar 08 - 07:28 PM

There is also a 4th view regarding the legalization of prostitution that might arise out of a belief that it is morally wrong and also exploitive. That is the view that I *think* is what takes place in Sweden from the brief blog ientry that Maggie linked to much earlier. In that situation, it is not illegal to offer sex for sale, but it is illegal to solicit sex for sale. The customer commits a legally criminal act but the prostitute is deemed to not have done so. In this instance, the prostitute does have some protection and is able to seek out appropriate medical care and file police reports when abused without fear of arrest. It may make it less likely that a customer will be physically abusive, though I certainly don't have any information to know that one way or another.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution just women...........;
From: Jeri
Date: 24 Mar 08 - 07:49 PM

It's a service occupation with a lot of taboos attached. I don't have any problem understanding how love can be considered sacred, but sex and love are NOT the same thing. Sex is often separated from every other thing in life as sacred and secret and... just plain taboo. People teach their kids about all sorts of things, but they have to be 'old enough' for their parents to talk about sex. Why isn't it just a matter-of-fact thing like every other aspect of biology? Taboo...

I have a problem with people being forced against their will and that includes people who feel like the HAVE to turn tricks to make the money they need to survive. I don't have any problem whatsoever with people who choose to be sex workers.

I was a military public health technician in South Korea, where prostitution was illegal but ubiquitous and overlooked most of the time. Our office, the local 'businesswomen's' association and the local health authorities made sure the women were registered and had monthly health checks. This helped keep them free of disease and helped keep the guys they serviced free of disease. There were women who freelanced and we used to warn the guys about them because they weren't checked.

Some of these girls had had to leave their homes because of economic reasons, and likely wouldn't be welcome at home anymore. They made pretty good money and most that I talked to didn't have a problem with self-esteem. Some people tried to hand them a big load of shame, but the smart ones left it

Sex as a job can be demeaning and raunchy, mostly because that's how 'righteous' people view it, and sex workers can easily be marginalized and treated as pariahs.

Personally, I don't understand why anyone would choose to be a sex worker, but I don't understand why people choose to do a lot of the things they do. A thing shouldn't be illegal just because I, or anyone else doesn't understand it. So yeah, legalize prostitution - then organize. (right Mick?)

Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution just women...........;
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 24 Mar 08 - 09:00 PM

I feel a bit in the situation of the the two boys in that short story in The Dubliners - A Strange Encounter. they wag a day off school and encounter a pervert in the park - who they first think to be very liberal - he thinks 'every little boys
should have a little girlfriend.'

he then then starts raving and ranting and whacking off.

Yes I do think that we need to be more explaining of sexuality and love to children. I think it is inevitable that children become 'sexualised'. I think this is infinitely preferable to young men climbing into bed on their wedding night. or even with their first serious grlfriend, without knowing one end of a woman from the other.

Thats why men end up going to prostitutes.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution just women...........;
From: GUEST,Appaloosa Lady
Date: 24 Mar 08 - 09:02 PM

"....though I can't be sure because of the lack of clarity with which you have written, is that sex for sale is morally wrong, whether or not it is exploitive."

Lack of clarity Janie ????

"Let me get one thing straight first though. If someone is perfectly happy being a prostitute, then that is fine by me. That is their choice and their life. It's the ones who are *trapped* in prostitution, that I'm talking about."

I don't judge people, apart from on their souls.

Of course Sex For Sale is morally wrong if it exploits anyone. Absolutely 100% wrong! How can it be anything but wrong, if the woman does not want to be a prostitute in the first place. Maybe she's been coerced or forced into it by some complete bastard, be they male or female...or she's seen it as her *only choice* in life, having had a young life filled with family misery or has been branded 'FAILURE' by an education system that, for many, so often de-sensitises and destroys, rather than illuminates and inspires. (but don't get me going on that one again)

The Path To Prostitution is the one that dismays me, because it seems to be never-ending.

If a woman absolutely adores sex and has worked out that she's damned fantastic at it and can therefore earn a fortune, well...good luck to her. She'll make herself deliriously happy and certainly make her various clients even more delirious, I'm sure.

But for the girl whose there for other reasons...no....that should not be happening in the 21st century!

Occupation: Legalised Sex Worker.

Huh?????????????????????

So MORALLY that's now OK? Because society has given these girls a shiny, bright new name, to put on their passport, one that gives them fantastic rights, such as erm..not being beaten up, or less risk of sexual diseases? GREAT! What a job girls! Roll up! Roll up!

I'm missing the blindingly obvious again aren't I?

Shouldn't she being helped out of a world that she may hate? Shouldn't she be given new opportunities for a better life?
Shouldn't she be given encouragement, support, understanding, belief in herself? You know, all that 'stuff' that school and parents should have given her, so long ago, to set her up so positively for life?

Next we'll be having Sex Work NVQs and Sex Work University Degrees!

I mean?????????

Some poor spirit, who's been messed up by a crappy education system, labelled 'FAILURE' then got tossed out into a harsh world, probably turned to drink and drugs to numb the pain, drifts into prostitution, goes down and down in her own estimation and that of others and FINALLY she earns the 'respect' of society by becoming stamped 'Legalised Sex Worker'

???????????????

Someone bring back William Wilberforce...FAST!

Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution just women...........;
From: GUEST,Appaloosa Lady
Date: 24 Mar 08 - 09:16 PM

Nope....children should be children. They should NOT be sexualised. Nature has arranged it that most kids recoil when it comes to matters of sex....until one day, when they're old enough, they no longer do that...and nature takes over once again.

Paedeophiles want to over-ride nature. They are out there folks, sexualising our children in the most worrying way, in ways that we never had around us. Watch 5, 6, 7 year olds dancing these days...sure ain't how my little girl danced, until The Spice Girls turned up of course (Lord help us all)...and even then she didn't dance like that, but all her pals did..helped along by their parents who thought it was an absolute hoot.

When I rang up Next a while back now, after they'd had some clothes for kids having to be removed, due to public outrage about how provocative they were, I spoke to their chief buyer, in the Childrenswear. She ended up in tears, not from me being horrible to her, but from stress of knowing that what her company was doing was wrong! She was in her mid 40s, had two girls of her own, aged 7 and 9 and she was worried sick about how they wanted to dress and how they danced, used their bodies etc....I calmed her down a bit, but another reason she was worried was that she was one of the older staff at board meetings, and she was doing all she could to keep kids clothes, as 'kids' clothes, but the younger people on the board wanted the new fashions, the decidely dodgy fashions, because they couldn't see anything wrong with it...

Our kids are being 'groomed' and sadly, many of them already have parents who've lived through the same treatment.

Children are children. They are NOT miniature sexualised adults! They have been robbed of their childhoods and they need them back! They do not need to know all about sex by the time they're five years old. We do not have to dump all adult knowledge, anxieties or behaviour on our kids, because we can't cope with it all.

It's time for adults to grow up and become the protectors again, rather than continuing to want to be like kids and shift all responsibility on to someone else, namely the very ones they should be protecting.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution just women...........;
From: Janie
Date: 24 Mar 08 - 09:18 PM

Lizzie,

I am assuming you have read the posts to this thread. If that assumption is correct, then you are aware you are preaching to the choir.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution just women...........;
From: Jeri
Date: 24 Mar 08 - 09:27 PM

You know, some people troll by pissing folks off until the thread goes off-topic and it's about the troll.

Some bomb threads with in amazing volume of annoying blather in what appears to be an attempt to 'shout down' others, piss people off, and make the thread all about the troll.

The thread's about prostitution, not the sexualization of children. Lizzie, folks have let you go because you seemed to be able to control the behavior that got you deleted the last few times, but you've reverted to form again. Don't expect it to be tolerated for long.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution just women...........;
From: Big Mick
Date: 24 Mar 08 - 09:39 PM

I will remind all of a couple of things.

One, this thread is not a place for men to post opinions. We are here on this one to observe, learn, or post questions. Consider it moderated, and I will delete anymore that don't follow this rule. No hijacking is going to happen.

Appaloosa Lady, get off the rants. The thread is about a discussion of prostitution as women see it now, whether it should be legal, if it were so, is it a tool for women to become empowered. Jeri's warning to you, spoken in her role as a moderator, is being repeated by me as a moderator. You will not be allowed to throw bombs and fits, and draw threads completely off topic. I don't know if you thought this new personna fooled anyone, but it did not. You are being allowed to post only so long as you follow the rules. You are getting close to the line, and forewarned is forearmed.

The reason I want it to be a women's discussion, is because it strikes women, given the physical way it happens (penetration of your body)and the psychological implications that society has foisted on them, plus the emotional ties, in a way that is entirely foreign to men. I believe we, as men, can only benefit from reading and learning here. And I believe that women will learn much from each other as they always do.

Please....back to the discussion. I am sorry for the tone, but I consider this to be a very important discussion and far from running its course.

All the best,

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution just women...........;
From: Big Mick
Date: 24 Mar 08 - 09:41 PM

One more thing. Yes, Jeri, they should be organized. And I will come out of retirement to do it......***chuckle***

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution just women...........;
From: Janie
Date: 24 Mar 08 - 11:34 PM

Informative post, Jeri. I'm glad you decided to chime in. I've got a bunch of questions you may or may not have answers for.

What did you mean when you talked of making sure the women were registered? And what do you mean by "free-lanced?" Did most of the women work for themselves?

Are you saying the health checks were provided by the US Military? Did the women get treatment as well as diagnostic work? Did they pay for it or was it provided gratis as a means of also protecting the military men from contracting STD's? Would the same thing have been done if it were a military base on US soil - say, here at Ft. Bragg?

Do you think that women who are comfortable identifying themselves as a sex worker are more likely to take advantage of the health services offered than are women who do feel a sense of shame or are sensitive to being considered pariah by families or society? What did you see in terms of drug problems or indications of abuse by pimps or customers? What kinds of attitudes did you hear expressed by the military men about the women from whom they purchased sex?

Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution just women...........;
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 24 Mar 08 - 11:54 PM

Interesting about Korea. The stigma of the forced WWII "comfort women" hasn't haunted these modern day sex workers?

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution just women...........;
From: Janie
Date: 25 Mar 08 - 12:04 AM

Thinking about sex work vs. prostitution.

Currently both sex work and prostitution are lumped together under the term prostitution. What we are gradually seeing is a distinction between the two. Legalization will add protections and some measure of legitimacy to sex work and will empower some women who are professional sex workers. This is not an arguement against legalization, but let those of us who may think legalization is a good idea be clear-eyed. legalization would have no (or very little) effect on the many women who are not professional sex workers but who engage in prostitution at various times. Legalizing sex work is likely to have little effect on trafficking, sexual slavery, or sexual trade in children.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution just women...........;
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 25 Mar 08 - 12:25 AM

Just as there is a sliding scale involved with the sex worker/prostitution conundrum, there is a sliding scale involved with the erotica/pornography conundrum. And the two (or four) are excruciatingly intertwined.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution just women...........;
From: Janie
Date: 25 Mar 08 - 01:21 AM

That's a good way to put it Maggie.

Legalization could result in a further dichotomy between those who engage in sex work and those who occasionally or periodically resort to prostitution, or who are forced into prostitution. It could have the effect of pushing prostitutes (distinguishing here between protitutes and sex workers) even further beyond the pale in terms of protection.

I'm gonna backtrack now and say I do not know enough or have enough information to say that I think legalization is probably a good idea. If a majority of women who sell sex are professional sex workers who chose this as a way to make a living (and that implies other viable choices), then legalization is a good thing. If that is not the case, then I need to go back to school on this one.

Regulation is not benign and often has many unintended consequences. When Uncle Sam (or the local version) gets involved, special interests get involved. Sometimes consequences are not unintended, they represent hidden agendas.

Think of the waitress or low-paid worker who may prostitute on the side or between jobs to try to make enough money to make the rent and feed the kids, the 'crack whore' giving head to a dealer who may also be a cop, the low-paid secretary to the President of the local bank who is good friends with the sheriff. They are not likely to register as sex workers, pay the licensing fees, or have the money for mandatory periodic health checks. Typically, when government licensing fees are involved, there are penalties and interest to be paid when the license is not obtained or renewed on time. Then toss in union dues. Many women could find themselves further criminalized, risk greater fines and financial penalties if busted for 'practicing without a license', and driven even further underground by legalization. Legalization could end up strongly favoring 'big business' interests. Don't know about prostitution, but I sure do know what happened to small, local organic gardeners when government got in the business of 'certifying' organic growers. The really small folks could not handle or afford the process.


Not surprisingly, I can't find any reliable data on the number of 'sex workers' vs. 'prostitutes.'

Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution just women...........;
From: GUEST,Appaloosa Lady
Date: 25 Mar 08 - 04:18 AM

Sorry Mick,

I'll leave this discussion. For me, it's not about data, this is about emotion. It's about putting yourself in the place of the woman, imagining her life...every single day of her life.

But maybe you're right, maybe it should all be just viewed clinically, in ratios, facts and figures and that way we don't have to think too deeply about the trauma caused to some 'sex workers' or about the danger of sexualised children growing up to be 'sex workers' and seeing nothing wrong with it.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution just women...........;
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 25 Mar 08 - 04:38 AM

I think its fairly impossible that children should know 'all about sex' by the age of five Or a hundred and five come to that.

One of the big problems is that there isn't much in the way of knowledge and education about sex available to anybody. Once you start looking, having yourself as an individual or a couple become in need of help and guidance - you become a punter in the sex trade. Someone to be sold useless books and incredibly stupid videos and dvds.

I'll be honest. I made a total bollocks of the physical side of marriage, with the person I loved the most. I had parents who 'kept me a child' too long and there was no sex education to speak of. And though few people come forward and admit as much, so many marriages disintegrate - and I'm willing to bet a hell of a lot of the rest are held together by one party or the other looking for sex outside marriage - which must be the richest pickings for the prostitution trade.

All I'm saying is. If a child comes to you with his or her sexuality. Don't reject it. Because you haven't the sense or the stomach to take it in your stride. I've seen it happen in my own family with ultimately disastrous consequences.

The church will always be on hand to encourage you to dodge your parental responsibilities in this field by ignoring them and pretending they don't exist, and telling you children should be allowed to be children. that is to say uninformed and ridiculed for their natural interest in what is making them tick.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution just women...........;
From: freda underhill
Date: 25 Mar 08 - 05:04 AM

There's a very good film that was produced in Australia last year, called The jammed.

It's a film which tells the story of women sold as sex slaves. It manages to tell the story truthfully without being gratuitous. It's worth getting this film, it will destroy any notions of empowerment to do with the sex industry.

yes, it's about slavery and some people choose to work in that industry. but there are so many people who make that "choice" who have addiction problems or who are impoverished.

two sisters i knew who worked in the sex industry had ongoing problems afterwards, problems including an inability to have unselfconscious sex or to relax during sex. They were big on making comparisons with other women based on physical appeal/attributes, and one told me she could only relate to her post prostitution industry partner/husband as if he was a customer. Their dreams about their future lives were based on getting an ideal partner who would support them.

Despite the bravado they came out with, and comments about empowerment, I think they were hardened, exhausted and corrupted by it.

however... so many people have such different experiences of sex. no-one can know either what other people experience or what is possible, and there are people who can feel degraded within a marriage as well.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution just women...........;
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 25 Mar 08 - 11:56 AM

The church will always be on hand to encourage you to dodge your parental responsibilities in this field by ignoring them and pretending they don't exist, and telling you children should be allowed to be children. that is to say uninformed and ridiculed for their natural interest in what is making them tick.

Children become interested in sex at a very young age, though they don't necessarily know it as something called "sex," and explore as they are allowed. School yard conversations to do with boyfriends and girlfriends, the jokes that make the rounds all express a vast misunderstanding of what is involved in sex. I remember a few that were told in junior high school, that seemed funny then because I was clueless as to what was really involved. Now I remember them as non-sequiturs, created by kids who were trying to guess at it themselves. If parents aren't frank and don't answer questions, kids end up with odd information and will get it from their often misguided peers. My parents left books around that we could stumble upon and read, but books written in the 1960s weren't very helpful.

I told my kids that I don't expect them to wait until they get married, but I do expect them to practice safe sex and under safe situations. Underage kids can get into trouble with the law (see my remarks way up there about the law usually hitting boys with sex offenses, but not girls). My daughter saw an ob/gyn for the first time when she was 17, because she decided she'd rather see a woman (my doctor) than a pediatrician for her annual physicals. We talked about her going to college and choosing birth control. No point in being shy about it. I was proud of my daughter for being open and researching methods and then asking for the Rx she needed when she met the fellow who is her boyfriend (for two years now).

Regulation is not benign and often has many unintended consequences. When Uncle Sam (or the local version) gets involved, special interests get involved. Sometimes consequences are not unintended, they represent hidden agendas.

I had that though when I was posting earlier. It isn't much of a stretch of the imagination to see corrupt officials as pimps, is it?

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution just women...........;
From: GUEST,Penny S. (elsewhere)
Date: 26 Mar 08 - 07:17 AM

Did anyone in the UK see the news items about a computer online game called Bimbo City used by many girls from 9 years up in France and the UK, in which players buy enhancements for their avatars by texting or using Paypal, such enhancements including breast surgery and diet pills, though the lads who wrote it claim that players can also send their bimbos to uni. To be the hottest bimbo?

The lads seem remarkably naive, in claiming ignorance of what they have made, that they are just reflecting reality... what do they think Bimbo means? (and I do mean naive, having seen them.)

For some years I have been concerned over the styles of dancing taught to primary age children in a local dance school, with accompanying costumes. The teacher has a national reputation, but from hearing him on the radio, he has a sense of "humour" which does not respect women, and he has certainly not been one to notice that teaching under 10s movements associated with sexualised behaviour might be questionable. At least, I have assumed that that was where the girls picked up the behaviours.

Penny

Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution just women...........;
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 26 Mar 08 - 11:33 AM

Have you seen the film Little Miss Sunshine? They do quite a sendup of those pagents that overly-sexualize little girls.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution just women...........;
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 26 Mar 08 - 11:51 AM

I remember feeling slightly uncomfortable watching Olive's dance, taught to her be her porn-lovng grandad. I know the comment it was making, but it still made me squirm...

Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution just women...........;
From: katlaughing
Date: 26 Mar 08 - 12:12 PM

And still no one charged with Jon Benet's murder. She really was so representative of parents and pageantry run rampant, imo.

I was flipping through channels last night and came up on Real Housewives of New York. Watched it for a bit; I used to know some women similar to them through their patronage of the arts center I worked at. It struck me, for all of their ultra-wealth, privilege, etc. they were prostituting themselves, and in one case at least, their daughters, just as much as a woman of the streets, just at a different level. It was all about who might see them, take their picture, pleasing the man of the house so he would allow them to spend more money, keeping themselves skinny. It was sickening after awhile. There were a couple of them who seemed a bit more genuine, but it was still that world of seeing and being seen. Unreal.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution just women...........;
From: jacqui.c
Date: 26 Mar 08 - 12:27 PM

That's true Kat. I have known at least two women who stayed in their marriages purely for the material benefits they were given. To me that is as much prostitution as anything else, just more dishonest as, in both cases the husbands thought that they had a happy marriage.

I know that there is less danger in those relationships but it must still do something to the psyche to have to make pretend so much of the time.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution just women...........;
From: katlaughing
Date: 26 Mar 08 - 02:05 PM

Unlike the husbands you knew of, Jacqui, I think the husbands on that show were every much as aware and guilty of playing the *game* as the women. It was odd because they did things with their wives I would like Rog to do, but it seemed so fake and ALL about what would look best in OTHER people's eyes. I cannot imagine that kind of stress.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution just women...........;
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 26 Mar 08 - 02:59 PM

Does that mean that the commercial transaction between a prostitute and her customer is more honest than many marriages?

G

Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution just women...........;
From: Janie
Date: 01 Apr 08 - 09:18 PM

Been trying to think about why this topic is so difficult for me. I think it is very difficult for a lot of women, and I think that is why there have been so few of us post to this thread. Values may become obsolete, but they are not arbitrary. Who we are as individuals and as members of communities and societies, how we value ourselves and others, what we view as normal or normative, and the implications of that in terms of mental health, psychological wholeness, self-esteem, self-efficacy, our own life experiences and lessons, both positive and negative....these are are part-and-parcel of identity, wellness, a sense of being whole.

I said earlier that there is nothing inherently bad about sex for sale. There is also nothing inherently good about it. Morals arise from values. Values are not inherent in terms of what those values may be, but values are essential to the ability of we humans to live in groups, and if human are to live, groups are essential. Thus values are essential mortar. Sex is also essential. Metapysically and existentially, one handles elementals with care.

I keep trying to distance myself from my own values and experiences, both personal and professional, in pondering this issue of prostitution and sex for sale. I think that may be a mistake.

For their own psychological survival humans are capable of adopting positions that justify any action whatsoever. It can be viewed as adaptive, at least in terms of emotional survival. The human capacity to engage in rationalization is truly remarkable.

Given the above, there is no simple yes or no answer to the question "Should prostitution be legal." I also think the notion of sex worker as a career choice in the same sense as accountant, medical coder, doctor, lawyer, school teacher, factory worker, farm hand, wait staff, is a fallacy. I acknowledge that is my view through the lens shaped by my upbringing, society, socialization.

When I try to consider the costs and benefits of prostitution (or sex work) to individuals and to society, I see no net benefit over time. The market for prostitution is about power and exploitation. Legalization may give some protection to some prostitutes. But it also legitimizes exploitation. Given the reality and functionality(not the inherency) of values, I think the term 'sex worker' is highly suspect and constitutes an acceptance of rationalization.

This post is a ramble, an exploration, and an invitation to more exploration, not a conclusion. Like I said already, I don't think there are simple answers.

Janie

Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution just women...........;
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 01 Apr 08 - 10:12 PM

I reread Viktor Frankl's Man's Search For Meaning a few months ago. That's one way to put it in perspective--what happens at that level of extremity, and looking at stages along the way.

I reread that book because I was reminded of it when I read Canadian author Anne Michaels' book Fugitive Pieces. The main character has a lot of difficulty with intimacy, though he is involved in sexual relationships in two marriages.

While these are tangential to the subject here, there is a point of intersection, and the point is that the search for meaning can happen in many ways. Some find it through their employment, are completely validated in the workplace, others work to pay the bills and the meaning in their lives comes through other avenues. It's all in how you parse it out.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution just women...........;
From: katlaughing
Date: 03 Jun 08 - 11:03 PM

Art, I finally got a chance to watch the film you recommended, Dangerous Beauty. I can see why it got two thumbs up. Really excellent and enlightening. I have read reviews of the book it was based on, probably too dry and academic for my taste, but there is also a book of Franco's poems and letters I am going to look for. She certainly was an extraordinary woman. I found more about her HERE. Thanks for the heads-up.

kat

Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution just women...........;
From: Ebbie
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 12:06 AM

I'm of more than two minds on the subject. On the one hand I think prostitution is inevitable wherever there is a preponderance of men. Certainly that has been true in the history of gold rushes and wars. And it has not always been as cut and dried a matter as the bluenoses would have it. Many a woman went from a 'sporting house' to a home and finally to respectability, 'bad' woman become 'good' woman.

(I grew up thinking that 'morality' referred only to sex and sexual behavior. That is W A Y mistaken. Morality takes in a vast array of action. Sex may not have a thing in the world to do with it. Thank God I knew that before my daughter came along.}

On the other hand, sexual activity is simply fraught with danger. Think of the various positions engaged in during sex- and just about every single one renders the server seriously vulnerable. That is scary. The idea of opening oneself like that to a queue of men one has never met and may never see again would have been enough to send me skittering off into the wild blue yonder, no matter what the money.

On the other hand (someone come over here - I need another hand), I don't think there is anything inherently 'sacred' about sexual parts. They certainly were nicely designed for the greatest pleasure. If one removed the concept of love from the equation I imagine the world would still go on for all of us. What was it Leonard Cohen wrote about 'you just had to meet someone. Without your clothes." Badly paraphrased but you know what I mean.

One thing I told my daughter is that when a fairly casual relationship becomes sexual, the relationship tends to become somewhat static, it stalls because the couple may stop learning to actually 'know' each other, the relationship has become primarily physical. The other thing I told her was that when she was contemplating a sexual relationship to make sure that she actually wanted him, that if each relationship through life was meaningful she would not regret it later. I still believe those caveats today.

I remember back in the day when guys would say, If I were a woman I'd be sitting on a gold mine. I would never be poor...

It's probably a good thing that most of the time men and women don't quite see eye to eye. :)

Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution just women...........;
From: jacqui.c
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 06:51 AM

Nicely put Ebbie.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution just women...........;
From: Naemanson
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 07:55 PM

I just stumbled over this thread. If Big Mick will forgive me I have a question.

On legalization: As I understand it prostitution is legal in Nevada. Does anyone know how that is or is not working out? Are the prostitutes in Nevada choosing their professions or are they forced into it?

On sex work versus prostitution: Everything I've read about the subject does not separate the two items. Prostitution is an extreme version of sex work. Consider porn films. As I see it the women there are just prostitutes that we can see at work. Do they choose that lifestyle?

Here in Guam Wakana and I have gotten to know at least three women who dance in the clubs (i.e., sans clothing) They have chosen their occupation and have no more problems with self esteem than you or I. One of them was dancing to make money to start a jewelry business. Our last email from her was that she has moved back to Canada and her business is going well.

On the other hand one of the local scandals and crimes is where the owners of a local nightclub were illegally importing women from Korea (I think) and forcing them into prostitution.

I have no problem with morality if a woman goes into prostitution of her own free will. There is no punishment harsh enough for people who force women into it.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution just women...........;
From: Art Thieme
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 10:00 PM

Kat
Thanks for the P.M.s I found the film quite extaordinary. Chris and his wife, also Kat, showed up here a few weeks ago with 5 huge garbage bags full of VHS movies. That's how I first saw the film.

They were intent on limiting TV watching time---in favor of more talking with their daughters. I wish them luck!

Art

Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution just women...........;
From: katlaughing
Date: 04 Jun 08 - 10:31 PM

You're welcome, Art. I wish them luck, too! I wish my daughter would do the same!

Ebbie, well-said. Brett, interesting, also.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution just women...........;
From: katlaughing
Date: 13 Aug 08 - 12:16 PM

When they put up the archive, after today, there is a very interesting discussion on Colorado Public Radio about sex trafficking during the DNC. Apparently pimps have been approaching homeless teens and they are expecting traffickers to bring in sex workers who are afraid to go to authorities for various reasons, including not having control of their own papers, i.e. passposrt, etc.

Here's the blurb: The Polaris Project is doing outreach - to warn people about human trafficking and the sex trade during the convention. University of Denver Professor and human trafficking expert Claude d'Estrée has lobbied the DNC committee to address the problem in its the convention platform. Host Ryan Warner talks with project coordinator Amanda Finger and d'Estrée.

Also, there is this:

From the Democratic National Committee Platform:

"We will address human trafficking—both labor and sex trafficking-- through strong legislation and enforcement to ensure that trafficking victims are protected and traffickers are brought to justice. We will also address the root causes of human trafficking, including poverty, discrimination, and gender inequality, as well as the demand for prostitution."

Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution just women...........;
From: Janie
Date: 07 Nov 08 - 11:03 PM

I stumbled across an article on cnn.com regarding the debate about whether prostitution victimizes women. It is not in depth, but does quote two experts who disagree.

My REAL Life as a Call Girl

Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution just women...........;
From: Naemanson
Date: 08 Nov 08 - 07:33 PM

An update on my earlier posting. One of our friends has achieved her goal of starting her own business. We got an email from her recently wishing us a happy Halloween.

Check it out. Online Jewelry Shop

Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution just women...........;
From: Janie
Date: 27 Apr 09 - 10:38 PM

Following is a link to "The Day My God Died," a documentary on the sex slave trade in India. It was aired on PBS in May 2008 - as part the series "Global Voices."

The Day My God Died

Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution just women...........;
From: katlaughing
Date: 27 Apr 09 - 11:27 PM

I will watch that this weekend next, Janie. Thanks for the link.

Last night I watched the tail end of a show on a prostitution sting of underage girls being made to sell themselves with their pimps using very sophisticated means of marketing. Each girl is listed on cragislist, carries a laptop with her and is put in a motel room for the night to which the "johns" are directed. The girls get NO money for any of their "work" and are often runaways, etc. Some of them were as young as 13. I don't think this is the program I watched, but there is this one on MSNBC about a recent nationwide crackdown on this practice. Until the recent murder perpetrated by a man using craigslist to find his victim, I had no idea craigslist was such a huge part of prostitution.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution just women...........;
From: frogprince
Date: 27 Apr 09 - 11:33 PM

Take a look at "erotic services" on Craiglist. The head cheese of Craiglist stood up with his face hanging out the other day and claimed that those aren't ads for prostitution. Riiight.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution just women...........;
From: SINSULL
Date: 28 Apr 09 - 08:12 AM

The Comfort Women sold into prostitution by their familes and even teachers provide a heart breaking view into the ugly business of forced prostitution. Some of these women are alive today and living in a "nursing home" where they tell their stories and demand that the Japanese government admit their existence.
Imagine being 11 or 12 years old and "chosen" by your beloved teacher to go to the city and work in a respectable job where you could send money home to your family. Then days later being forced to service as many as forty men in a day. Syphilis, abortions, sterility - and add to it a culture that holds virginity sacrosanct for a bride. When freed, they had no homes to go to - no respectable family could take back a whore. So they remained prostitutes or lived alone in poverty.
GOOGLE Comfort Women.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution just women...........;
From: Mrrzy
Date: 28 Apr 09 - 01:39 PM

As I understand it, while prosties can have any gender, all the customers are men.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution just women...........;
From: Janie
Date: 31 Oct 09 - 11:57 PM

This morning, on NPR's weekend addition, I listened to a Scot Simon interview with Emma Thompson regarding a collaborative art installation with a young woman from eastern Europe who was tricked into thinking she was being offered the opportunity for legitimate work in England, only to be beaten, tortured and raped to be forced into the sex trade in the UK. The exhibit has already been shown in London, and opens at Washington Square in New York in early November.

I have been following the story of the gang rape of a 15 year old girl at a home-coming dance at a school in southern California, as well as the story of the recent rescue of a number of children who had been sold into the sex trade in the United States.

I know what overall conclusions I draw when I connect the dots.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution just women...........;
From: Riginslinger
Date: 01 Nov 09 - 08:25 AM

When you connect the dots, what overall conclusions do you draw?

Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution just women...........;
From: katlaughing
Date: 28 Nov 10 - 07:16 PM

There is an interesting article about women sex slaves in NYC and elsewhere HERE in the NYTimes. Here's the beginning of it:

A Woman. A Prostitute. A Slave.
By NICHOLAS D. KRISTOF
Published: November 27, 2010

Americans tend to associate "modern slavery" with illiterate girls in India or Cambodia. Yet there I was the other day, interviewing a college graduate who says she spent three years terrorized by pimps in a brothel in Midtown Manhattan.

Those who think that commercial sex in this country is invariably voluntary — and especially men who pay for sex — should listen to her story. The men buying her services all mistakenly assumed that she was working of her own volition, she says.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution just women...........;
From: Janie
Date: 28 Nov 10 - 08:24 PM

Thanks for the link, Kat.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution just women...........;
From: Ebbie
Date: 28 Nov 10 - 09:14 PM

I remember the comment I would have liked to make when this thread first appeared:: Remember WKRP? I watched most of the episodes as they were aired- I still think they were mostly well done, well acted and with a little over the top characters. I enjoyed the series.

However, do you remember the character Loni Anderson played? I've forgotten her name but she played this bright, stable, gorgeous blonde who had this opulent apartment, where quite obviously she entertained and enjoyed men. The show portrayed her as discerning, particular. wise and guiltless, but if that wasn't prostitution I have no idea of what it was implying.

I would add that the presentation was very much from the male point of view.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Prostitution just women...........;
From: GUEST,Patsy
Date: 29 Nov 10 - 09:27 AM

Lily Langtryn to some a harlot, an adulteress, a mistress or just a beautiful passionate society woman in a loveless marriage. My grandmother thought she was a beautiful young girl fondly remembering her face for 'Pear's' soap but my grandfather would not mention her name at all. Lily's husband (according to the book I read) was an inadequate uninspiring man. Her upbringing was far from poor so she could put one foot up on the society ladder with ease. You could say that she pimped herself from one catch to another but unfortunately didn't end her time with the man she truely loved Mountbatten. Apart from falling pregnant allegedly with Mountbatten's child she must have had the intelligence to prevent that happening in the past if the times were as ignorant or innocent as is suggested. Infact she must have been quite savvy despite it being the norm for women to have large families. Where would she have learnt that? Not from her own husband. Had she been born in a downtrodden slum it would have been a different story she probably would have become a prostitute put to work by an unscrupilous pimp.

Perhaps prostitutes should go self employed and pimp themselves from their own home or a brothel run by a woman like Cynthia Payne keeping things in order.