BS: Biblical? reference: What's the origin?

Subject: BS: Biblical? reference: What's the origin?
From: GUEST,PMB
Date: 17 Mar 08 - 05:17 AM

In the small town of Whitwick, between Leicester on Burton-on-Trent (UK), there are two small areas (a few streets each) marked on the OS map as "City of Dan" and "City of Two Waters". I assume, given the date of the area- an early-to-mid 19th century mining town- that these are Biblical references, but I haven't found them. Anybody know where they come from, and what the original designation meant?

Subject: RE: BS: Biblical? reference: What's the origin?
From: Emma B
Date: 17 Mar 08 - 06:42 AM

City of Dan is the easy one......

Subject: RE: BS: Biblical? reference: What's the origin?
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 17 Mar 08 - 10:40 AM

I've often wondered what kind of body of water Brits are referring to when they speak of 'Galla water' or 'Derwentwater.'

A lake? Reservoir? Wetland? Whatever the answer is, look up Whitwick on GoogleEarth and see if there is a section of it with two of them.

I've already looked. Don't be fooled by the quarries.

Subject: RE: BS: Biblical? reference: What's the origin?
From: GUEST,Guest:John o t SC--really
Date: 17 Mar 08 - 11:31 AM

As these, you say, are Biblical references, the "city of two waters" may more correctly translate to 'the city between two rivers' [Tigris & Euphrates]. So perhaps the reference is to Babylon or Ninevah.
John

Subject: RE: BS: Biblical? reference: What's the origin?
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Mar 08 - 11:49 AM

Wastwater, Semerwater, Ullswater, Derwentwater.... they are all lakes.
All in the north of England. I can't think of a "water" below the Anglo Saxon/ Danelaw border. Does anyone know different?
Cheers
Dave

Subject: RE: BS: Biblical? reference: What's the origin?
From: Emma B
Date: 17 Mar 08 - 12:14 PM

The Anglo Saxons would probably have referred to Meres

Em, posting from the forest 'de la mere'

Subject: RE: BS: Biblical? reference: What's the origin?
From: GUEST,CrazyEddie
Date: 17 Mar 08 - 12:26 PM

Apparently Lake Windemere is the only "Lake" in the Lake District.

-All of the others are "Waters".

(Note, a man in a pub told me this, so it must be true.)

Subject: RE: BS: Biblical? reference: What's the origin?
From: GUEST, Sminky
Date: 17 Mar 08 - 12:30 PM

NO! Bassenthwaite Lake is the only lake. All the others are meres or waters.

Subject: RE: BS: Biblical? reference: What's the origin?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Mar 08 - 02:11 PM

It's Windermere not Lake Windermere.

Subject: RE: BS: Biblical? reference: What's the origin?
From: GUEST,crazy little woman
Date: 17 Mar 08 - 03:03 PM

Once upon a time there were two landholders dwelling near Whitwick, brothers named William Water and Robert Water, and one day...

Subject: RE: BS: Biblical? reference: What's the origin?
From: Newport Boy
Date: 17 Mar 08 - 04:25 PM

In Scotland, 'Water' is also a river, eg Endrick Water & Blane Water near Drymen.

Wastwater, Semerwater, Ullswater, Derwentwater.... they are all lakes.
All in the north of England. I can't think of a "water" below the Anglo Saxon/ Danelaw border. Does anyone know different? (Dave)

Well, there's Southampton Water - the tidal inlet to the rivers Test & Itchen. Also Allcombe Water in Somerset, Alton Water (reservoir) in Suffolk, Bathesland Water (stream) in Pembrokeshire, Combe Water (stream) in Devon .... I could go on.

And (tongue in cheek) there's Virginia Water!

Phil

Subject: RE: BS: Biblical? reference: What's the origin?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 17 Mar 08 - 05:05 PM

Mere, meaning a body of water or a marsh, is often confused with mere, meaning boundary.

As Macgrath points out, Lake Windermere is redundant.

Subject: RE: BS: Biblical? reference: What's the origin?
From: gnomad
Date: 17 Mar 08 - 05:46 PM

Rutland Water is another reservoir. I think that completes the set, ~water would seem to have no fixed interpretation, except that it will be something wet B-)

Lake Windermere is, as Q says, redundant (a tautology I think?) but is widely used. We seem quite fond of such usages in relation to landscape; Pendle Hill, and the several Rivers Avon spring to mind.

Subject: RE: BS: Biblical? reference: What's the origin?
From: Kent Davis
Date: 17 Mar 08 - 09:13 PM

In the Authorized Version, there is no "city of two waters" nor does the phrase "two waters" occur. It's possible the phrase occurs in some other version but, given the date of the area, only that version seems likely to be relevant.
Google turns up nothing but this thread.
Kent

Subject: RE: BS: Biblical? reference: What's the origin?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 17 Mar 08 - 09:57 PM

"Whitwick, town, par., and township with ry Sta., Leicestershire, 5 miles E. of Ashby de la Zouch and 7 SW of Loughborough - par., 622o ac., pop. 6536; town and township, 3382 ac., pop. 3881; P. O., T. O. Whitwick dates from a remote period, and has some remains of an ancient castle of the Earls of Lancaster. The church (restored 1840) is a fine old building. The market place is spacious, and has been much improved. The mfr. of hosiery is the principal industry, coal mines are in vicinity. Whitwick township is a local government district."
John Bartholomew's Gazetteer of the British Isles, 1887.
http://www.visionofbritain.org.uk/place/place_page.jsp?p_id=11371

The two names may be quite old ("dates from a remote period") and the "two waters" could be long gone (having no biblical meaning).

Subject: RE: BS: Biblical? reference: What's the origin?
From: GUEST,PMB
Date: 18 Mar 08 - 05:00 AM

Just to confuse matters, someone has pointed out to me that it's actually "City of Three Waters". City of Dan is indeed at the northen end of the town, and I suspect the folks there might have been a bit beyond the pale as regards the rest of the townsfolk.

I'd suspect the names would date from a period of widespread Biblical interest, at least for Dan- that would make it either mid 16th C, 17th C or after the Methodist revival. The buildings suggest the later dates.

When was Windermere made redundant, Q? Does that mean it's on job- seekers' allowance now?

Oh, and you water diviners have missed out Chasewater in on Cannock Chase, another reservoir.

Subject: RE: BS: Biblical? reference: What's the origin?
From: Kent Davis
Date: 19 Mar 08 - 11:17 PM

The term "City of Three Waters" does not occur in the Authorized Version nor, I suspect, in any version. Here's an explanation for the name: http://www.crosbyheritage.co.uk/location/whitwick/city-of-three-waters/

Kent