 sj |
||
|
||
BS: Pope on pedophile priests
|
|
|
Subject: BS: Pope on pedophile priests From: GUEST,Ed T Date: 17 Apr 08 - 06:59 PM April 16, 2008 WASHINGTON — Pope Benedict XVI chose to address bluntly the sex scandal that has torn at the church here even before he landed Tuesday on his first official visit to the United States, saying he was "deeply ashamed" by the actions of pedophile priests. Is being ashamed enough, considering the extent and length of these crimes, and inability of this church to take action for decades. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests From: John MacKenzie Date: 17 Apr 08 - 07:01 PM inability ?? Reluctance more like. G |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests From: Peace Date: 17 Apr 08 - 07:20 PM "Is being ashamed enough, considering the extent and length of these crimes, and inability of this church to take action for decades." What would you have him do? |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests From: GUEST,Ed T Date: 17 Apr 08 - 07:39 PM How about reach out to the victims, as a start? Maybe some could be helped by church funded therapy? How about purging the church of those responsible, and even those who turned a blind eye to what they knew was happening? Do we know if anything changed inside? |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests From: akenaton Date: 17 Apr 08 - 07:40 PM Bruce...perhaps a study of celibacy in the priesthood and its relationship to paedophilia among priests. I understand that the celibacy rule has been attracting a very high persentage of homosexuals to the priesthood and that assaults on young boys are most common. These points were made on UK tv by a US representative of the Catholic church about a couple of weeks ago. I heard the interview, but didn't catch the mans name, so I'm afraid I have no link.....Ake |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests From: Peace Date: 17 Apr 08 - 08:06 PM I do NOT condone any of that. Hell, I live in Canada. Both the Catholics AND the Anglicans committed abuses as well as some other 'children's aid organizations. I just was wondering. I too think there should be amends made by those churches. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests From: Barry Finn Date: 17 Apr 08 - 09:10 PM "Is being ashamed enough, considering the extent and length of these crimes, and inability of this church to take action for decades." What would you have him do? For starters he should castrate the Bishops that floated these criminals from church to church & parish to parish & hang them out for the public to flog them. The Bishops were the ones that should really be held for hanging as they were the ones that are responsible for these pedophiles to continue to victimize for decades when they could have nip it in the bud & stop this as an excepted behavior. He feels sorry but not nearly as sorry as the kids that became vitims & then had to go on knowing their tormentors continued elsewhere unabashed in their wake of ruin. He should also give the victims what they ask for, they are due thier justice. He should at the very least try & give them an ear & listen. Barry |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests From: Rapparee Date: 17 Apr 08 - 10:34 PM Bennie just met with some victims.... But if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a large millstone hung around his neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea. -- Matthew 18:6 My brother was studying for the deaconate, and the two priests teaching the class weren't taking the subject of pedophile priests seriously, or not as seriously as he thought they should. So he asked them if they believed in the words of Jesus in the New Testament. "Of course," answered. And then my bro quoted to them the words above. It shut them up. It should go without saying, but my brother is NOT a member of the deaconate of the Roman Catholic Church. Somehow he seems to have "lost his vocation" in that direction.... |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests From: Amergin Date: 18 Apr 08 - 01:34 AM Well, considering that it was his office that orchestrated the willful cover up of the actions of these perverts, I find this rather hypocritical of Pope Adolf.... Also I would like to point out that paedophilia and homosexuality are not in any way shape or form linked, in fact the vast majority of young boys raped by men, were not molested by homosexual men. Their lives were perverted by straight men. Paedophilia is not a sex act...it is an act of control. It is an act of power. It is an act of betrayal. Anyone who believes otherwise, needs to educate themselves before they voice such asinine opinions. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests From: GUEST, Richard Bridge Date: 18 Apr 08 - 03:10 AM I understand he also expressed views on former US treatment of blacks, but the media have not risen against him as they did against Obama's pastor. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests From: GUEST,PMB Date: 18 Apr 08 - 03:19 AM According to their own beliefs, the Pope could at any time have ordered all priests (and others) who have committed abuse to confess to the police, on pain of damnation. That he didn't indicates two things to me: (1) He doesn't believe in his powers, or in damnation. (2) Neither do his priests. If the top brass don't believe, why should the grunts? |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests From: Big Al Whittle Date: 18 Apr 08 - 04:57 AM Just thought I'd add a musical interlude to the debate http://bigalwhittle.co.uk/id28.html Sorry about the phoney American accent Richard! al |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests From: GUEST, Richard Bridge Date: 18 Apr 08 - 05:39 AM Truly fascinating elocution, Al! |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests From: greg stephens Date: 18 Apr 08 - 05:43 AM I think he should get off, for a start. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests From: GUEST, Richard Bridge Date: 18 Apr 08 - 08:38 AM In which sense? I think the donkey did get off - ie got his rocks off I think the donkey did get off - he then dismounted I think the donkey did get off - he was not convicted. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests From: Donuel Date: 18 Apr 08 - 08:41 AM Being above the law is good. Its good to be the King |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests From: Rapparee Date: 18 Apr 08 - 09:01 AM Especially if you are infallible in matters of faith and morals, no matter HOW that infallibility was achieved.... |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests From: Big Al Whittle Date: 18 Apr 08 - 10:20 AM All my accents are phoney Richard. I am a phoney. Only Martin Carthy (product of the Walter Gabriel/Long John Silver/ Bonny from the Yetties love triangle) can truly claim to be authentic. What d'you reckon to the Pope's accent, he's gotta be putting that on a bit? You'd think he was a foreigner. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests From: irishenglish Date: 18 Apr 08 - 10:40 AM But sometimes its the actions that go a long way. His comments were one thing, but his unscheduled meeting with younger victims of the sexual abuse was a decent gesture, and will be remembered I am sure. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests From: Donuel Date: 18 Apr 08 - 11:06 AM In the warmest most Norman Rockwell meaning of the words "Let each person be free in accordance to their conscience" are words that define the triumph and disasters of human race. The success of the hedge fund manager is the acquision of 1.2 million dollars a day. As for his conscience only time will tell. The success and conscience of most of the people on this earth is to feed theri family on $1 a day. I can understand the devotion and conscience of both individuals and hope that one day they will understand and help each other. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests From: bankley Date: 18 Apr 08 - 12:28 PM so how do you say blow job in Latin ? |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests From: Rapparee Date: 18 Apr 08 - 12:38 PM I dunno, but "minigolf" is "pilamálleus minūtus". |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests From: GUEST,Lox Date: 18 Apr 08 - 12:41 PM Amergin. Thankyou for your precise and accurate appraisal. Anyone who hasn't read it, scroll up! |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests From: SINSULL Date: 18 Apr 08 - 01:03 PM fellatio? |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests From: catspaw49 Date: 18 Apr 08 - 01:14 PM The Pope is on the priests? Wow......this problem really does go clear to the top. The religious right, pedophile priests, racism from the pulpit, condoning those who attend church and yet torture because this is God's country, child abuse through the interpretation of scripture..............................yeah........Now someone tell me that religion is still a wonderful thing. Spaw |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests From: Rapparee Date: 18 Apr 08 - 01:19 PM Religion IS a wonderful thing. People suck, however. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests From: Peace Date: 18 Apr 08 - 01:31 PM "so how do you say blow job in Latin ?" Moneeca Looenskee. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests From: Big Al Whittle Date: 18 Apr 08 - 02:34 PM Looewesci loowensci loowescis lowescorum loowenscorum loowenscis(six times) Thats the only thing about a papal request for a blow job in Latin, you can't really decline it. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests From: Joe Offer Date: 18 Apr 08 - 02:40 PM Well, I don't think there are any easy answers. I'm not convinced that anybody knows how to solve the problem of pedophilia. It's not fair to say that the Catholic Church did nothing about the problem (but it IS fair to say they botched it badly). In the 1970's, dioceses spent millions on treatment centers - and that was an age when we all believed that there were or would soon be psychiatric techniques to cure every problem. It was an age when people viewed such things as illnesses more than crimes. Remember the emphasis on "rehabilitation" in correctional institutions of the time? But anyway, they built a number of huge treatment centers, and they spent megabucks paying the operators of the centers. They believed that when a priest had completed the program, he would be completely cured. My response that dioceses acted in good faith by sending pedophile priests to treatment centers is only part of the answer. It's also very true that many cases were ignored or covered up. Some of that was callous and criminal, some was a fear of facing consequences, some of it was due to an inability to believe that well-known and well-loved priests could do such horrible things, and some just stupidity. The U.S. Catholic Church has paid a heavy price for these failings, and it will continue to pay for at least the next decade or so. In my diocese, every victim was paid a million dollars, whether there was evidence to back the claim or not. Property was sold to pay the claims, and half the staff of the diocesan central office was laid off. Every employee and every volunteer who works with children is fingerprinted and given training on sex offenses. In the United States, four dioceses have filed for bankruptcy or are very close to doing so. Most priests with credible allegations of sex offenses, have been removed from ministry. We're in a different age now, an age that emphasizes punishment as the only response to crime - and more punishment if the orignal punishment didn't work. It's very easy now to look back at incidents that happened thirty years ago, and to say that all those priests should have been arrested and convicted. But that's a simplistic response. Criminal prosecution and huge financial settlements are not going to stop pedophilia, and they are not going to heal the victims. Both prosecution and compensation are necessary, but more and more money and more and more jail time aren't the total solution. I think a good start would be for us to acknowledge that our society does not really know how to deal with sex offenders. The Catholic Church certainly failed horribly in this matter. At the very least, it should have referred every suspected crime to the police and it should have removed sex offender priests from ministry. But really, nobody has an answer. California has laws that make it extremely difficult for convicted sex offenders to find a home once they are released from prison, so now we have a problem of sex offenders living with our homeless population. We've given up on the idea of treating sex offenders, so now we just put them in prison for longer terms and then release them in a more dangerous state than before they were convicted. But at least we've satisfied the electorate by making the punishment draconian. As a society, our primary response to sex offenses has been to point the finger of blame at somebody and demand that they pay a heavy price for their misdeeds. And yes, there IS blame, serious blame - and the people who have done wrong must pay for their wrongdoing. The trouble is, when we blame others, we don't see how we ourselves have also been unable to resolve the problem. As long as the problem continues to exist, we as a society have an obligation to work to resolve it. Those who are directly to blame must certainly be punished - but that isn't the total answer. And the fact of the matter is that we don't have an answer to the problem of pedophilia. -Joe Offer- Spaw, with regards to your comment:
|
|
Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests From: Rapparee Date: 18 Apr 08 - 04:14 PM Quoddam autem nefandum et ignominiosum valde vitium in nostris partibus inolevit, cui nisi districtae animadversionis manus quantocius obviet, certum est, quod divini furoris gladius in multorum perniciem immaniter grassaturus impendet. Heu! pudet dicere, pudet tam turpe flagitium sacris auribus intimare; sed si medicus horret virus plagarum, quis curabit adhibere cauterium? Si is, qui curaturus est, nauseat, quis ad incolumitatis statum pectora aegrota reducat? Vitium igitur contra naturam velut cancer ita serpit, ut sacrorum hominum ordinem attingat. -- Peter Damian to Leo IX, ca. 1049 CE. (click) |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests From: PoppaGator Date: 18 Apr 08 - 05:32 PM C'mon, Rap, give us a translation. I took four years of Latin ~ albeit more than 40 years ago ~ which is way more than most of our fellows here, and I'm not even going to TRY making sense of that!
-Joe Offer- |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests From: wysiwyg Date: 18 Apr 08 - 06:01 PM I seriously doubt most Mudcatters understand the complicated world of canon law sufficiently to opine on what the Pope can and cannot do. What we're left with is what we WISH he could, and therefore our feelings tell us that he should, do. Unfortunately none of us have been put in the position he is in, and really can only create change in those situations that are within our own, personal reach. ~Susan |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests From: Richard Bridge Date: 18 Apr 08 - 06:44 PM Al, you may be 100% phoney (you said it,not me) but with Van Gogh's ear for accents, have you ever really listened to Martin Carthy's enunciation and compared it to Robin Hood Bay? |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests From: Rapparee Date: 18 Apr 08 - 06:48 PM Geez, why go to Notre Dame anymore??? A certain abominable and terribly shameful vice has grown up in our region. Unless the hand of severe punishment resists as soon as possible, there is certainly a danger that the sword of divine anger will be used savagely against it to the ruin of many. Alas! it is shameful to speak of, shameful to suggest such foul disgrace to sacred ears! But if the doctor shrinks in horror from infected wounds, who will take the trouble to apply the cauter? If the one who is to heal becomes nauseated, who will lead sick hearts back to health? Vice against nature creeps in like a cancer and even touches the order of consecrated men. Peter Damien was speaking out against priestly homosexuality in general, not pedophilia in the specific, but his words apply even more to that. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests From: Big Al Whittle Date: 18 Apr 08 - 08:03 PM I've never been to Robin Hood bay.....a colony of people who talk like Martin sings. I don't believe it. Even he doesn't talk like he sings! |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests From: catspaw49 Date: 18 Apr 08 - 09:15 PM Joe, I love ya' like a brother but that's where I'm at anymore. While they may not condone it, it seems to become more and more prevalent..........atrocity after atrocity with the stamp of approval from someone's way of thinking and interpretation. Nope....Can't imagine you or Susan or many others here involved in such but I see all too many in the society in general. Spaw |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests From: Joe Offer Date: 18 Apr 08 - 09:15 PM All I know about Robin Hood's Bay is it's the only place in England where I got a decent beer - Grouse Beater was the name. -Joe- |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests From: Big Al Whittle Date: 18 Apr 08 - 10:16 PM Joe, I didn't know you'd been to England looking for beer. You should have said. Grouse beater, I can't bring it to mind. If I can find some , I will send you some. But to be honest, merely decent.....it hardly describes our finest beers. Do come here again, and kip on our sofa and I will show you the local stuff on offer. as for the priests - its all weird shit. i was lucky, my Grandma had a terrific barney with the local priest and my mother was only one of four kids who wasn't brought up a catholic. so I wasn't a catholic, but my cousin was and was terribly abused by the priests. every which way. nightmares into his 30's and all that stuff. He grew up respecting their teaching methods - which made him very successful, but determined his own kids weren't going to suffer as he had. there was an article in the the Irish Times a while back, asking for compassion for the errant priests. A lot of them were suckered into the priesthood at an age when they had little idea of what was involved, and what exactly they were renouncing. A lot of them came from rural communities and were a long way from home . completely at sea in city places- with no idea of how sophisticated townie kids conducted themselves. Van Gogh's ear, Richard you make Oscar Wilde seem like Arthur Mullard. all the best to all al |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests From: Big Al Whittle Date: 18 Apr 08 - 10:28 PM Ps Is that how they spell paedophile in America? |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests From: wysiwyg Date: 18 Apr 08 - 10:36 PM ... seems to become more and more prevalent... Well is it a surpise that it SEEMS that way considering (A) the general trend toward empowerment of victims that increases reporting, (B) the advances in counseling approaches on tough topics that allows memories to surface which increases retroactive reporting, (C) the free flow of information on the cybersuperhighway and CNN, and (D) the effect of the womens lib movement as a foundation for advances in empowerment? Not to mention the societal advances in litigiousness combined with the financial incentive for lawyers to "help" victims? Not saying there are not real victims, but didja ever consider the thought that during the "consciousness-raising" part of any trend toward eliminating specific oppressions, it's gonna be hard NOT to hear about cases of abuse? Then there's the gay thing. As gay liberation moves forward, all KINDS of voices come out of the closets they've been in, and subject people didn't use to discuss openly are right out there. More people nowadays are taliking about more things, and more media is covering the salacacuious angles, and more peope ar etuning in. Why right here at Mudcat iut's all OVER the forum, who is being victimized by whom, on a daily basis. Nobody wants to hear good news anymore. God isn't "dead"-- it's just that nobody wants to hear messages of hope anymore if they can have a quick argument (or air an old grievance) instead. (And the media capitalizes on this fascination with the negative.) There are people (and we all know and love some of them) whose whole persona is built on old victimization, and not just here. Hardi and I spend most of every day trying to aim several people's eyes outta the muck they insist in wallowing in. D'ya think if they ever got off their personal soapboxes, the daily drip of media badnews might not seem so negative? ~Susan |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests From: Beer Date: 18 Apr 08 - 10:51 PM I hear ya Susan. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests From: akenaton Date: 19 Apr 08 - 02:15 AM Interesting to see that not one poster has responded to my point about the celibacy rule. This rule seems to me to be the biggest problem for Catholisism and the cause of most of the child abuse. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests From: akenaton Date: 19 Apr 08 - 02:18 AM By the way Lox, Amergins post is simply his opinion. We need a proper study of the celibacy law, homosexuality and links to child abuse before any conclusions can be drawn. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests From: Joe Offer Date: 19 Apr 08 - 02:53 AM Well, ake, the celibacy rule is why I left a Catholic seminary after eight years. There have been studies made, and no causal relationship has been found between celibacy and child molesting. Child molesters are child molesters, whether they're celibate or not. The requirement of celibacy does not turn people into child molesters. On the other hand, I know a number of good, normal people who would have made good priests - but they left before or after ordination because they could not live with the celibacy rule. So, I suppose the case could be made that people with normal sexuality tend not to choose celibacy. That was what happened to me, and to a number of friends who would have made terrific priests. We had one guy in our class who showed enormous potential. He was sent to Rome to study for a doctorate after he was ordained. He didn't last ten years as a priest. Now he's a married lay person working for a diocese - removed from his job as a theology professor in a Catholic college because he is a former priest. What a shame. But the celibacy rule didn't turn him into a child molester - it turned him into a married former priest. I had two classmates who were accused of sex offenses. One is no longer allowed to function as a priest, and I don't know the story of what happened to him at all. I heard he had "retired" from Wisconsin to Florida at the age of 50, and then recently read he was no longer allowed to function as a priest. The other was accused of something that happened thirty years ago. He had served as a missionary in Africa for over twenty years. About the time the accusation surfaced, he was working at a desk job in Rome. The guy in Florida was a little "swishy" and was known as one of the "fems," but nothing that would make you think he would end up a sex offender (and maybe he isn't - I don't know what happened except that he's not allowed ot be a priest any more). The guy in Rome didn't seem unsual to me when we were college students. That's my personal experience, not a scientific study. -Joe- |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests From: Jim Lad Date: 19 Apr 08 - 03:04 AM Akenaton: I think most would agree that the celibacy rule has outlived it's usefulness and that its implementation has a tendency to attract eccentric candidates more than it does those would serve us well. JP II went a long way towards bringing the church up-to-date and his years of ill health allowed the seeds that he had planted, time to grow. Benedict is no spring chicken but has refused to be just a caretaker in his declining years. He has chosen to tackle this subject head on and is probably quite prepared to take what's coming to him from the victims and the faithful. The rest is just static. The problem has more to do with the abuse of power than homosexuality and has manifest itself in Sex Abuse probably but not entirely because of the celibacy rule. Case in point... That bloke that picked him up at the airport.... he's married, right? |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests From: wysiwyg Date: 19 Apr 08 - 09:45 AM Thanks, Beer. I was in a rare black mood last night. We get SO TIRED of hearing about this. (The collar is a target.) Ake, I did respond. Read my post. It's been argued here ad naauseum while having NOTHING to do with pedophilia. ~Susan |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests From: GUEST,dianavan Date: 19 Apr 08 - 01:48 PM I wonder what he has to say about the Canadian genocide? http://www.thecumberlander.ca/cgi-bin/show_articles.cgi?ID=611 I think the attitude of the Church goes much deeper than pedophillia. Native people were considered non-human and their children were treated like animals. Native people had no value and those in positions of responsibility considered their children disposable. Ethics and morality only applied to white, human beings. Whats a little road kill to a self-righteous, white supremacist? Susan - "There are people (and we all know and love some of them) whose whole persona is built on old victimization, and not just here. Hardi and I spend most of every day trying to aim several people's eyes outta the muck they insist in wallowing in. D'ya think if they ever got off their personal soapboxes..." Hmmm...Sounds like victimizing the victim to me. What did these kids do to deserve a mass grave? I doubt if they had much time to wallow in self-pity. I'm sorry if you think that people suck your time and energy but maybe you are offerring too little, too late. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests From: Jim Lad Date: 19 Apr 08 - 02:04 PM What? |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests From: wysiwyg Date: 19 Apr 08 - 02:13 PM "There are people (and we all know and love some of them) whose whole persona is built on old victimization, and not just here. Hardi and I spend most of every day trying to aim several people's eyes outta the muck they insist in wallowing in. D'ya think if they ever got off their personal soapboxes..." Hmmm...Sounds like victimizing the victim to me. What did these kids do to deserve a mass grave? I doubt if they had much time to wallow in self-pity. I'm sorry if you think that people suck your time and energy but maybe you are offerring too little, too late. In that part of my post I was not referring to victims of abuse per se but to the general cultural rush to negativity that is so widespread. But as far as sympathies for victims, there is no help for them in reinforcing their sense of continuing victimization, once they are in a safe place and can start the healing process. The healing process of course includes telling the story, but if the listener or counselor can only respond with reinforcement, the victim can stay stuck there. A guided word to the safer aspects of reality aids recovery quite a bit. (Anyone who has counseled on incest memorioes knows this.) Back to the Pope-- since the outrage is so great, the feeling is common that whatever anyone does now is too little, too late. No one with that mindset will EVER be satisfied with ANY positive step, because it will never FEEL like "enough." But steps are, by definition, small and slow. How else does change happen without cataclysm? ~Susan |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests From: Bert Date: 19 Apr 08 - 02:36 PM Well said Susan. I kind and thoughtful response to a somewhat fierce post. |
