BS: Pope on pedophile priests

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: GUEST,MikeS
Date: 21 Apr 08 - 05:35 PM

Sorry Popp, I didn't know that.
Where did I make an ad hominem argument though? Is Hitler a member? (joke)

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: Peace
Date: 21 Apr 08 - 05:54 PM

The Catholic Church's most famous member in modern times is Mother Teresa, now sanctified.

I mostly let people go their own way with opinions, but if ANYone slags Bishop Romero, we WILL have difficulties. I admire that man no end.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: PoppaGator
Date: 21 Apr 08 - 05:57 PM

Jason Berry wrote the definitive book-length treatment of this scandal years ago, and even then there were several civil prosecutions to be written about. I'm drawing a blank on the title: might be "Deliver Us From Evil" or something like that ~ but you can google the author's name.

Jason is still a practicing Catholic, but that doesn't prevent him from being an appropriately harsh critic of the bishops and of Rome.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: Barry Finn
Date: 21 Apr 08 - 06:17 PM

I'm from the Boston area & I'd have to say that the church here wasn't forthcoming with alot of info & help until the scandle grew & the mounting pressure became over baring. The churh in the beginning of the scandle's wave would not release books or other documentation but later did come to bend against their will & eventually many of the offenders were investigated. The chuch here is still paying dearly & a good number have been prosecuted & imprisoned. There's still many that need to be held accounted for though.
Given the time laspe I wouldn't but a lot of blame on the police though, at least not in my area. They've done well with what they've had to deal with. The time issue, victims not willing to come forward, lack of documentation, a resistant church, alot of deaths among the victims, criminals & witnesses & etc. It's the church's responsibility to bring the issue to a close to the satisfaction of those victims that are presently crying out for justice, relief & closure. One of the main issues is the Bishops, Arch-Bishops & Cardnials that knowing shifted & shielded these criminals from place to place effectively giving them shelter from the law & from their victims. Those criminals may be some what out side of the law's grasp now but they're not past paying a dept for their hidious behavior.
I spent my childhood & grammer school years in religious school & when I left to continue high school I never set foot in a church again until I was married & had kids of my own. It's, in my opinion an organisation that has it's pros & cons. It's in the business of selling faith to those that find a need for it & that's fine. But it could due with an overhaul as to it's purpose, aim, priorities & the means it uses to achive these goals.
Like any male dominated cultural community it will flourish & attract those men that will seek out the benifits of a male dominating group. The Boy Scouts has the same attraction, or an all boys school or the Boys Club. These are all well meaning groups with good intentions & with plenty of saints & well wishers & do gooders but they all need to police themselves for those that have have their own aggendas that are actually in opposition to the groups purpose & from those that would prey & seek to satisfy their own disires in an arena of easy pickings. The set up is like a turkey shoot.
The church did such a bad job policing themselves that they actually set up a system where they attracted the foxes & invited them into watch the hen houses & prey among the innocent. They were the ones that could do no wrong, they were beyond question, they were to be trusted above all others & they were the guides for the willing. That is the churches fault & that is the system they created & need to correct. They aren't & weren't able to police themselves. They have a good ways to go before they can fix their system & they can't fix their system until they acknowledge the harm that's been caused by their willingness to turn a blind eye, until they set the system straight, until they clear themselves of those that shuffled the criminals about, until they get on their bended knee & beg the forgiveness of those that they injured. They need to open their arms & books willingly to any & all that ask & transparency needs to be achived, willingly. The culture & climate of the priesthood also needs to come under a transformation. Alot of what happened did so under the eyes of knowing priests & clergy & much was kept silent & many turned a blind eye or didn't follow through when discouraged by superiors. They may not ever receive justice but that climate & culture needs to be reformed.
The chuch needs to bend over backwards to see that it clears itself of all this before it even begins to worrying about clearing it's good name, that should be the last of their worries.

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 21 Apr 08 - 06:42 PM

I never knew about Hitler being a catholic - I have heard that he had jewish ancestry however - one of many weird things about him ...

I have heard of Maximillian Kolby, a catholic Priest who died in Auschwitz and was recognized as a saint by the church for laying down his lfe to save that of another man.

Beautiful story. Brave man.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: Joe Offer
Date: 21 Apr 08 - 07:31 PM

Yes, Hitler was born into a Catholic family and baptized as an infant. I've never seen any indication he practiced the Catholic religion as an adult.

Let me add something for consideration. As many of you know, I was in a Catholic seminary for eight years of a 12-year program. I attended four years of high school and four years of college in the seminary of the Archdiocese of Milwaukee, and I really loved my time there and got a good education. I have to say, however, that in about my second year of college, there was a "sexual charge" to the atmosphere that seemed unhealthy. Sometimes, I wondered if I was the only straight guy in the place. That was our last year in the 6-year "minor seminary." As we prepared to move to the "major" seminary, we went through a battery of psychological tests, and we were all interviewed at length by psychiatrists. One Monday morning early in our Junior year of college, several of my classmates were missing - they were all the ones I thought of as "squirrelly" - there was just something strange about their sexuality. After that purge, the sexual atmosphere dissipated almost completely, and there was a much healthier feel to the atmosphere. I guess that didn't solve the problem completely. Out of twenty or so in my class who were ordained from my class, two have been accused of sex offenses. One is still functioning as a priest, and the other is not - as I said above, I didn't hear the whole story on either one.

I'm now in the Sacramento diocese in California, and this diocese has always had a majority of foreign-born priests. The diocese is now working with the Sacramento County District Attorney to get a former priest extradited from Mexico to face trial for sex offenses committed in the 1980's and 1990's. The man left the priesthood and fled to Mexico when the crimes were first reported.

I'm sure there have been many times when Catholic parishioners and employees have not cooperated with investigations of sex offender priests. Very often, child molesters are charming people, and people just can't believe their beloved priest did something wrong. Oftentimes, people just can't believe such horrible accusations could be true, especially when the offender is well-loved.

It's a complicated puzzle to sort out. Don't be too quick to point the finger of blame. I've had the privilege of working with churches, Scouts, and other volunteer organizations all my life. Most of the people I work with are wonderfully idealistic. There trouble is, they are often as unrealistic as they are idealistic. When they encounter crime, they are completely overwhelmed and have no idea what to do. I guess I'm still pretty idealistic myself, but my 25 years as a federal investigator also gave me a good dose of realism and a good network of law enforcement connections. There have been a number of occasions when church and Scout people have asked me what to do in various situations, and they've followed through on what I've advised. The ones who contacted me never, ever tried to cover anything up, and they were always very concerned about wanting to to the right thing. Yes, there have been coverups - but there also have been a lot of situations where people did the best they could.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: Peace
Date: 21 Apr 08 - 07:35 PM

Well said, Joe. Very.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: GUEST,MikeS
Date: 21 Apr 08 - 08:03 PM

"I've never seen any indication he practiced the Catholic religion as an adult."

Apart from perhaps the odd bit of anti-semitism.

Very good at denial, is the Vatican.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: Big Mick
Date: 21 Apr 08 - 09:39 PM

You continue to demonstrate that your sole purpose for being in the discussion is to throw the name of an infamous monster in, as if that one thing categorizes the entire Church. Joe continues to carry the responsible argument, and your response is to defend throwing Hitler into the mix, with not so much as a nod of the head to the examples I cited, Archbishop Romero (One of my heroes too, Bruce), and Maxmillian Kolbe. It points out that you are an anti Catholic bigot. Perhaps your bigotry is founded in an experience when you were young, or you were raised that way. In either case, your comments lend nothing to the discussion, and your credibility is shot.

There was one study done that showed the sex abuse scandal focuses on the Catholics because they are the only celibates, but that the abuse is every bit as rampant among other religious and philosophical organizations.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: Peace
Date: 21 Apr 08 - 09:49 PM

I can say this with all honesty: Hitler makes me ashamed to be human--he doesn't make me ashamed to be Catholic.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: Beer
Date: 21 Apr 08 - 10:02 PM

Were the only species in the animal chain that abuse one another.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: GUEST,MikeS
Date: 21 Apr 08 - 10:23 PM

Mick, I despise all religions equally, but not necessarily the people who practice them. If you're going to stoop to name-calling, 'anti religious bigot' would be preferable. There have been good people associated with all religions, I should imagine, and we could quote them ad infinitum, but they aren't relevant to this discussion. I can see you are never going to understand my point of view, so our discourse is now finished. I apologise for rattling your cage.

Peace: You're a good man, and you have my respect.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: Big Mick
Date: 21 Apr 08 - 10:43 PM

If you were a member, we would continue this discussion using PM's. I likewise apologize for the rhetoric, but I get damn tired of characterizations that simply ignore all the good that is done, on a daily basis, which affects people in a positive way. This good is being done by people attempting to live a life in the model of what their faith asks them to do. Your equating the religion with Nazism and Hitler, while ignoring all the good absolutely floors me. There are so many here that use any excuse to damn the Church, while never acknowledging the good done.

So let us let the conversation return to where it was..

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: Amos
Date: 21 Apr 08 - 11:22 PM

Beer:

I'm afraid abuse of same-species members is very common in some other primates as well. Not to mention canines from different packs, sometimes.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: wysiwyg
Date: 21 Apr 08 - 11:59 PM

Brazil priest carried aloft by balloons missing
Fund-raising stunt goes awry, but supporters hopeful
updated 4:48 p.m. ET, Mon., April. 21, 2008


SAO PAULO, Brazil - A Roman Catholic priest who floated off under hundreds of helium party balloons was missing Monday off the southern coast of Brazil.

Rescuers in helicopters and small fishing boats were searching off the coast of Santa Catarina state, where pieces of balloons were found.

Rev. Adelir Antonio de Carli lifted off from the port city of Paranagua on Sunday afternoon, wearing a helmet, thermal suit and a parachute.

He was reported missing about eight hours later after losing contact with port authority officials, according to the treasurer of his Sao Cristovao parish, Denise Gallas.

Gallas said by telephone that the priest wanted to break a 19-hour record for the most hours flying with balloons to raise money for a spiritual rest-stop for truckers in Paranagua, Brazil's second-largest port for agricultural products.

Some American adventurers have used helium balloons to emulate Larry Walters -- who in 1982 rose three miles above Los Angeles in a lawn chair lifted by balloons.

A video of Carli posted on the G1 Web site of Globo TV showed the smiling 41-year-old priest slipping into a flight suit, being strapped to a seat attached to a huge column green, red, white and yellow balloons, and soaring into the air to the cheers of a crowd.

According to Gallas, the priest soared to an altitude of 20,000 feet (6,000 meters) then descended to about 8,200 feet (2,500 meters) for his planned flight to the city of Dourados, 465 miles (750 kilometers) northwest of his parish.

But winds pushed him in another direction, and Carli was some 30 miles (50 kilometers) off the coast when he last contacted Paranagua's port authority, Gallas said.

Carli had a GPS device, a satellite phone, a buoyant chair and is an experienced skydiver, Gallas said.

"We are absolutely confident he will be found alive and well, floating somewhere in the ocean," she said.

"He knew what he was doing and was fully prepared for any kind of mishap."

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: GUEST,dianavan
Date: 22 Apr 08 - 12:51 AM

Big Mick - "Your equating the religion with Nazism and Hitler"

Its not as if the Catholic church made Hitler do what he did, but you have to admit that they kept very quiet and they actually profitted from the misery of the Jews. Its not as if they knew nothing about it. In fact, all churches are well known for placating the masses and covering for politicians. Are you saying that for all the good the church does, the criminality should be ignored?

In Vancouver, the Catholic church had to sell some very valuable land to pay damages to some of the victims of pedophiles. So it should be. It happened on their watch.

The Church, with the blessing of the State, has been responsible for many attrocities. Recently the Church is being accused of genocide.

"The Catholic, Anglican and United Church , and the government of Canada, operated the schools and hospitals where these mass graves are located. We therefore hold these institutions and their officers legally responsible and liable for the deaths of these children."

http://www.thecumberlander.ca/cgi-bin/show_articles.cgi?ID=611

Seems like nobody bothered to read my previous post.

I have a question for those who think this is Church bashing. If the Church isn't liable, who is? The Government of Canada? Seems to me they gave the responsibility to the Church. Lets face it, these kids were treated as if they were inhuman. Nobody cared.

Who's responsible for instilling the concept of Supremacy and who maintains that heirarchy? Why is the Vatican so wealthy and where did that wealth come from? If they care so much about people, why is there so much hunger and homelessness? Sorry Mick, the Vatican cares more about pomp than about the starving masses. There are, of course, exceptions. Not many, but there are some.

Big Mick defending the Catholic Church, is like teribus defending the Republican party.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: heric
Date: 22 Apr 08 - 01:07 AM

Big Mick: You are always telling us what a thread is about and that we should shut up about anything else; and you even!! do it in your last post where you say this thread is all about the good thing Catholics do! Try to stay on track will you.

You're all good people, and you all have my respect.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 22 Apr 08 - 04:10 AM

I was horrified to find that an old class mate had committed suicide - he was facing paedophile type charges apparently. I wish I'd been more Christian and kept in touch with him, as he was very kind and decent to me and a good friend. Neither of us were catholics. Its a problem that crosses denominational lines.

Mick and I have had our differences in the past, but I can understand his indignation at the responsibity for Hitler's career being laid at the door of the Catholic Church.

Its like blaming the Quakers for Dillinger. or the Plymouth Bretheren for Haig the acid bath murderer.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: akenaton
Date: 22 Apr 08 - 04:56 AM

McGrath...."It's far more complicated than that, and not a problem located within particular sub-groups that can be demonised.

Married men, single men, straight men, gay men, priests, teachers, lorry-drivers, parents..."

Are "men" not a sub group?

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: Peace
Date: 22 Apr 08 - 10:34 AM

One last thing to say here: I think Mudcat has some of the internet's more creative, agile minds posting to it. I think those minds could better employ themselves getting along and working together to discuss/solve problems. Emotional issues cause us to react and often say things that are ill-considered. (Never having done that myself . . . .) We all have areas wherein our buttons can be pushed with some definitely ardent rebukes. I think the key is to rebuke the position and not the person. It's taken me years to learn that, and I am working hard to practise what I think is a righter path than the one I used to walk.

I have some dear friends here, some of whom I slagged once or twice, and a few who slagged me once or twice. Tell ya one thing: friendship is better than enemyship. Any day.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: heric
Date: 22 Apr 08 - 11:03 AM

Yeah okay WLD and Peace I hear you and I strayed off, too. It's one hell of a topic for people to try and discuss conversationally.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: Peace
Date: 22 Apr 08 - 11:31 AM

I'm not castigating anyone at all. Truth is I'm one of the five more miserable SOBs ever came to this site. However, change don't happen all by itself. I figure we're better off working together than being disfunctional. It's one small step, anyway.

The three 'hottest' topics on the 'cat are politics, religion and 'what is folk?'. Anytime I see that a thread is about one of those things, I know it's gonna hit the fan pretty quickly. It's easier to prevent it than clean up afterwards, imo. Besides, if our world ended tomorrow, I rather meet friends and not enemies in the next life.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: wysiwyg
Date: 22 Apr 08 - 12:00 PM

I want to ask Ake (especially) to go back and re-read my posts, and try to realize the tone of compassion and concern with which they are written. I bet they don't come across that way as mere text, but ask anyone who knows me what more comes along with those words, in experiencing me in my native environment.


I also want to point out that Mudcat is so much more than the words in the threads. Right this very now, my face is full of hot, cleansing tears because of a special blessing I just got in PMs from another Catter. Someone who I think is one of my missing-brother type Catters, who I am going to send a digital recorder to, so he can send me MP3s of his wonderful songs. They happen to be Christian songs, but that's not the point-- they're really his heart.

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: akenaton
Date: 22 Apr 08 - 02:22 PM

Sue dear...I think I like you better when you take your halo off.

I even remember getting a virtual kiss late one night
Seems like a long time ago....:0)

Could never take anything from you personally Bruce.
Friends should be able to disagree about most topics without breaking their friendship.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: wysiwyg
Date: 22 Apr 08 - 02:56 PM

Well...... I think it is more accurate to say that people tend to see a halo I know nothing about, and then think that I need to remove it.... and then they assume that I have complied with their desire.... I used to get PMs telling me how much "better" I had become, and ya know, that's really pretty presumptuous! :~) I am the same, actually, pretty much all the time.

There is still no substitute for actually getting to know another human being.

;~*

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: GUEST,MikeS
Date: 22 Apr 08 - 03:44 PM

Just to set the record straight, I was not laying the blame for Hitler's career on the Catholic Church, nor was I actually equating Nazism with Catholicism, despite their long history of intolerance, persecution and slaughtering of the Jewish people. Amongst other things, I was trying to illustrate that the actions of people, good or bad, does not necessarily depend on whether they are religious or not. Indeed, I would maintain that acts of goodness are, at least morally speaking, worth infinitely more if they are not done for religious reasons, ie 'in the name of God', but just done for the sake of doing something good or positive. It annoys me that the Church is all too willing to claim credit and responsibility for the positive acts of its members whilst 'playing down' the more negative aspects. The main reason I mentioned Hitler though, was to illustrate the Catholic Church's capacity for denial and corruption. No doubt many Catholics would take that personally - it isn't, it's just an observation. No way am I going to enter into any personal arguments with you, it isn't worth it. I really don't mind what people believe in, so long as they don't detrimentally affect me and mine with it, and so long as they don't assume some kind of moral superiority from it.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: Joe Offer
Date: 22 Apr 08 - 05:47 PM

Well, Mike, I have to say I still don't get your logic. Nobody has denied that Hitler was baptized Catholic as a child. You, on the other hand, have made no effort to give any evidence that he was a practicing Catholic as an adult. The Catholic Church and other religions have lots of nominal members who don't have a clue what "their religion" is about.
So, where's the connection between Hitler and Catholics? I think you have totally failed to make a logical connection. Without logic, discussion is impossible.
So, what's your point?
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: PoppaGator
Date: 22 Apr 08 - 06:01 PM

Hitler's government established "state churches" by co-opting the leadership of various German churches, definitely including Protestant denominations. I honestly don't know if Catholic parishes were included in this particular Nazi-fication effort. (I only know about the Prods from reading about the heroic Lutheran theologian Dietrich Bonhoffer, who was hung for conspiring to asssinate Der Fuhrer.)

Hitler's actual religion, or at least the one that he made every effort to establish, was a sort of quasi-pagan cult of Aryanism. The public rites (Nazi rallies) were very well planned and designed, and were very effective in acquiring believers.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: akenaton
Date: 22 Apr 08 - 07:03 PM

Diana..........."Big Mick defending the Catholic Church, is like teribus defending the Republican party".

Best laugh I've had in ages.....Thanks Diana.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: GUEST,Windsor Knot
Date: 22 Apr 08 - 07:20 PM

This is starting to become a platform for anti catholic sentiments.

An objective analysis of the situation suggests, first, that the Catholic church is no worse than others when it comes to the incidence of child molesters in its ranks. Second, whatever the failings of the Catholic hierarchy in dealing with this appalling problem (and they are legion), those sins pale in comparison to the blatant hypocrisy of the Church's enemies here on this issue.

In fact, some of those adversaries inadvertently assist the process of placing the scandal in context.Approximately 5 percent of priests have a predilection toward minors. That seems consistent with other clergy who are not priests, such as Protestant ministers or rabbis.

Robert Bell,a psychologist affirmed that the percentage of abusers among Catholic priests is no higher than among Protestant ministers.

Why, then, the disproportionate focus on problems within the Catholic Church here? Is it "let's attack the catholic church".

Then there is also the status of the Catholic Church as the most visible, powerful religious institution in the world. General resentment of organized religion will often focus on the Church of Rome, the most centrally organized and hierarchical faith on earth.

Finally, many attacks centre on the tradition of priestly celibacy, in a spasm of trendy Catholic-bashing that reflects the basest sort of inconsistency. Gay activists and establishment opinion leaders unequivocally insist that homosexual identity is innate and inborn as blue eyes or left-handedness. These same enlightened thinkers then turn around and say that celibacy in the priesthood pushes prelates to paedophilia. If only priests were allowed to marry, the conventional wisdom declares, then they wouldn't even feel tempted to molest little boys.

This proposition contradicts basic liberal assumptions about gay identity.If a priest is congenitally gay how could marriage ever re-wire his orientation? This might work only if the Church sanctioned same-sex marriage for its priests, a radical demand that few critics of celibacy dare to advance.


This uncomfortable question touches another illogical position of those who want to use this scandal as an excuse to attack a traditionalist church. The same people expressing the most strident condemnation of gay priests molesting young boys, also demand public pressure to force the Boy Scouts to embrace gay scout masters – insisting that such leaders present no danger to our sons.

I feel confident that the Church will eventually clean house and deal with the problems of its clergy. But leftwing critics of the Church here may never come to grips with the obvious internal contradictions in their own irrational ideas.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 22 Apr 08 - 07:46 PM

I don't know who Robert Bell is but if you have a citation to a credible study then I'm sure we're all with you. The practice needs to be curtailed.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: GUEST,MikeS
Date: 22 Apr 08 - 07:52 PM

Joe, my point is mostly about denial, and you illustrate it perfectly. That is precisely why discussion would be a waste of time. No offence intended.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 22 Apr 08 - 08:29 PM

What really pisses me off is these catholic paedophile priests who reckon they know what folk music is and vote republican.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: GUEST,Windsor Knot
Date: 22 Apr 08 - 08:47 PM

Weelittledrummer, I remember going to see "The Singing Priests of Tagbilaran", if you haven't heard of them, look them up.

That did a fantastic rendition of "Different Drum" and also "What did you learn in school today".

A wealth of talent.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: GUEST,dianavan
Date: 22 Apr 08 - 09:16 PM

Joe - There are lots of logical conclusions about the connection between the Catholic Church and the Nazi doctrine.

"In the performance of my spiritual office and in my solicitude for the welfare and the interests of the German Reich, I will endeavor to avoid all detrimental acts which might endanger it."
--Mandatory pledge for newly appointed Catholic Bishops, as stated in the Reichskonkordat, or Concordat Between the Holy See and the German [Nazi] Reich, Article 16

http://www.newadvent.org/library/docs_ss33co.htm

Joseph Ratzinger, now Pope Benedict XVI, wrote:

"...it cannot be denied that a certain insufficient resistance to this atrocity [the Holocaust] on the part of Christians can be explained by an inherited anti-Judaism present in the hearts of not a few Christians."

That is not to say that all Catholics are Nazis or that all Nazis were Catholics. Ratzinger says it very nicely when he calls it insufficient resistance. In fact, there were only a small minority of Catholic priests who resisted at all. Most priests performed according to the welfare and interests of the German Reich.

Try this link

http://www.emperors-clothes.com/vatican/cpix.htm

or just google Nazi and Catholicism

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: GUEST,Maureen
Date: 22 Apr 08 - 09:20 PM

MikeS:

Hitler was an altar boy and the pope was a member of the Hitler youth. Thats one connection. But you'll never get a catholic to admit their religion had any responsibility for the holacaust.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: GUEST,MikeS
Date: 22 Apr 08 - 09:35 PM

It's just not worth trying.. As my old mum used to say: "There's none so blind as them as won't see."

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: Big Mick
Date: 22 Apr 08 - 10:13 PM

MikeS, I suggest you read dianavan's post. Now I disagree with her on many issues. But at least she brings cites to the discussion. You, on the other hand, brought an off the cuff comment that can only be interpreted as equating Catholicism as being responsible for Hitler, or certainly implying such. Tell your old mum that she is a wise woman. To bad her kid didn't listen to her.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: GUEST,MikeS
Date: 22 Apr 08 - 10:18 PM

I read her post and agreed with it. No problem.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: heric
Date: 22 Apr 08 - 10:44 PM

WindsorNut, really. If you want us to believe that the Catholic hierarchy are the real victims here - victims of bigotry while just doing what everyone else does - you really ought to bring something to back up such an extraordinary assertion.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 22 Apr 08 - 11:44 PM

Not singling out one comment particularly, but above someone said:

Hitler's government established "state churches" by co-opting the leadership of various German churches, definitely including Protestant denominations ...

In fact, the Weimar Constitution that was in effect when Hitler and his party took office sanctioned a "State Religion" and it was Catholic before Hitler arrived on the scene. Some protestant churches were "tolerated," but had no widespread (public) acceptance and little political influence.

The FIRST INERNATIONAL TREATY that the new Nazi government was able to get signed was with THE VATICAN.

According to some, the primary reason for this treaty was that about the only organized objections against the new government were being voiced by a few liberal Catholic priests and congregations.

With the treaty recognizing the (conservative) Vatican version of catholicism, and making it the only form of Catholic worship allowed in the "official state religion," the resistance was effectively - and by some accounts brutally - crushed. Giving the Vatican full authority over the German church allowed the "church" to purge any priests not following the "official religion" which - almost incidentally from the standpoint of the church - eliminated organized opposition to the new government's "domestic policies."

In other words, Hitler "played them like a bull fiddle" and the Vatican was willingly (or stupidly?) complicit.

(One of the problems with extreme conservatism is that it's so easy, once one knows their mantras.)

Relations between the Nazi regime and Rome were sufficiently cordial that the Vatican is the only foreign power to send an official representative to Hitler's annual birthday party/celebration for the next six years according to documents and photos at several sites.

Given the emotions and "self-serving" histories extant, it's nearly impossible to be absolutely sure than any one - or few - sources are more accurate, or offer "deeper meaning," than any of the others, but the documentation on the above appears credible - to me. In another hundred years maybe I'll have a better understanding of it all.

Hitler was no more a "catholic" than [[CENSORED] is a "born again" christian.

John

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: GUEST,MikeS
Date: 23 Apr 08 - 12:11 AM

"I am now as before a Catholic and will always remain so."
Hitler, 1941.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 23 Apr 08 - 04:11 AM

MikeS, I hold no brief for the Catholic Church, but what you are suggesting is borderline insane. In fact you are over the border with your passport stamped.

The Popes have stood for some pretty mad things in their various times, still do - that much must be faced. However first and foremost - they do stand for the teachings of Christ in the New Testament.

These latter cannot be squared with what Adolf Hitler did. Chalk and Cheese.

Hitler said many things, most of his pronouncements were dishonest and cynical. He was more than a little crazy and his agenda shifted. But The Sermon on the Mount and its injunctions - even at his most calculating - were never really going to be for him.

Hitler had a constituency of what must have been decent folk at one time. I suspect he had to lull as many of them as he could, those that he couldn't actually corrupt. I suspect that lies at the heart of his 1941 pronouncement.

Also Catholic means Universal in another less frequently used sense. He was cynical and intelligent enough to be ambiguous. He had plans for world domination.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: GUEST,Windsor Knot
Date: 23 Apr 08 - 04:42 AM

Speak until your blue in the face, nothing will change the fact the catholic church is the largest and most respected faith on earth.

Accept it.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: GUEST,MikeS
Date: 23 Apr 08 - 04:28 PM

I think Buddhism might scupper that claim Windsor, but what do I know? I'm a lunatic & nothing but a perfidious Jew.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: GUEST,Ed T
Date: 23 Apr 08 - 07:05 PM

PoppaGator said "Hitler's government established "state churches" by co-opting the leadership of various German churches" Is that not what they did in England much earlier when the Anglican church was set up:)

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: Joe Offer
Date: 23 Apr 08 - 07:05 PM

I certainly don't mind listening to rational and documented criticism of the Catholic Church, but it's hard to carry on any sort of discussion with somebody who just keeps asserting information without documentation. It's nice that you finally came through with at least a quote, Mike. That makes at least a start. This page gives a long list of quotes from Hitler that seem favorable to Christianity, so I guess it's fair to say he claimed to be a Catholic. Still, Mike, your implication was that Hitler did what he did because he was Catholic; and that one cannot expect justice from the Catholic Church because it once had a member named Adolf Hitler. You still have failed to show a causal relationship, a logical connection. "Guilt by association" is not generally considered to be a valid logical argument.

I haven't seen evidence that would indicate that the Catholic Church actively promoted Fascism and National Socialism to any great extent, although there were ultra-nationalist Catholic groups in Croatia and other places that certainly did. The Catholic policy at the time was to attempt to coexist with national governments, and that included carrying on diplomatic relations with dictators - and made for the Catholic Church having some strange bedfellows at times. I don't buy claims that Pope Pius XII supported the Nazis - but he certainly was a disappointment in his failure to oppose them strongly. He was a career diplomat, and it appeared he tried to deal with the Nazis and Fascists with diplomacy. The world needed a hero at the time, and it's clear that Pius XII was no hero. That's why I oppose the proposal that Pius XII be named a saint. I don't think he was a bad man - but the Church and the world needed more than mediocrity at the time.

There is one thing I can say in defense of the Catholic Church and Pius XII with regard to its relationship with Hitler - In 1937, Pope Pius XI published an encyclical letter, Mit brennender Sorge (with burning sorrow), addressed to the German people. A letter may not sound like much, but it's about the most powerful weapon Popes have nowadays. This letter, which was apparently written by Vatican Secretary of Eugenio Pachelli (later Pius XII) (click), expressed strong opposition to Hitler and his policies. In 1937, the United States had a far more cordial relationship with Hitler than the Vatican had, so I think it's a big stretch to accuse the Catholic Church of supporting Hitler or of responsibility for the Holocaust. Certainly, the Catholic Church and all of Europe and America should have done more to oppose Hitler and the Holcaust - but failure to oppose is quite different from active support.

John Paul II is not one of my favorite popes, but I have to admire his courage in opposing the Marcos regime in the Philippines and later the Communists of Eastern Europe. If Pius XII had shown that sort of moral strength, the Holocaust might never have happened. Maybe John Paul learned his lesson in World War II.

I consider pacifism to be part of my Catholic faith, although I acknowledge that most Catholics are not pacifists. I have to say, though, that Hitler and the Holocaust shake my faith in pacifism. The British and the Catholics tried appeasement, and failed miserably. What finally defeated the Nazis, was warfare - much as I hate to admit that. I suppose that was the essential failure of Pope Pius XII: for all intents and purposes, he was a pacifist - and his pacifist approach failed to stop the Nazis and the Holocaust. All of us who claim to be pacifists, need to examine that failure and learn from it. John Paul II apparently did. So did Gandhi, and Nelson Mandela, and Martin Luther King.

Windsor Knot, Islam has recently replaced Catholicism as the largest faith, and I'd venture a guess that Buddism may well garner more respect than any other. I've gone to Mass at least once a week all my life (and I'm at church half a dozen times a week), but I have more respect for the Dalai Lama than I have had for any pope since John XXIII.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: frogprince
Date: 23 Apr 08 - 07:31 PM

Anyone motivated enough to do a little research?
Did Jeffrey Dahmler have any church affiliation?
Ted Bundy?
John Wayne Gacey?
We may be missing any number of denominations that should be identified as bastions of pure evil on the basis of one person who was affiliated with them, or was seen attending one of their services on some occasion.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: GUEST,MikeS
Date: 23 Apr 08 - 08:07 PM

You're obviously an educated man with a good heart Joe, thanks for a sensible and sensitive reply. My original comment concerning Hitler was not meant to imply a causal relationship, but to illustrate that if the Church were capable of denying that Hitler's Catholic upbringing and education had nothing to do with his anti-semitism and apparent religious fervour, they could hardly be trusted to come clean about the odd buggered choirboy unless they were absolutely forced. European anti-semitism was already rife well before Hitler exploited it, and it originated in Christianity, not Hitler. It is (merely) my opinion that Hitler was carrying on where Torquemada left off - ridding society of (mostly) Jews on behalf of "God". I think the connection is well beyond the realms of coincidence, albeit that my opinion may be from beyond the borders of insanity.

An interesting observation on Catholic education though: I've a large proportion of friends, a sister, and a partner who aren't stupid, and went to various Catholic schools - so far none of them knew Hitler was a Catholic, and none of them had the faintest idea who Torquemada was. Make what you will of that.

Technically I'm not actually Jewish by the way, but I do have a bit of Polish background that I feel very strongly about.

Subject: RE: BS: Pope on pedophile priests
From: GUEST,MikeS
Date: 23 Apr 08 - 08:53 PM

Sorry, that should read 'anything to do with his anti-semitism'..