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Chords in Folk?
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Subject: RE: Chords in Folk? From: GUEST,EricTheOrange Date: 16 Oct 08 - 03:12 AM Does anybody still believe this guys got a degree? Look at how he debates and the arguments he forms. He's so ignorant I think he's a liar as well as a fool. |
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Subject: RE: Chords in Folk? From: s&r Date: 15 Oct 08 - 06:33 PM "Also, any degree in humanities is, of course, relevant to any kind of supervision/management, which I've done in the past." To which of the following does this statement not apply? Humanities subjects(Some university or other) American Studies Arabic and Hebrew Archaeology Art History Classics Cultural Studies Dutch English European and East-European Studies Film and Television studies French German History Information Science Italian Linguistics Literary Studies Modern Greek and Byzantine studies Musicology Philosophy Portuguese Religious Studies Scandinavian languages and literature Slavonic languages and literature Spanish Theatre Studies Stu |
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Subject: RE: Chords in Folk? From: GUEST,Frank Hamilton Date: 28 May 08 - 05:11 PM What makes folk music accessible is its ability to reach people because somehow they've heard it before. This could also be said for popular music but in the folk traditions, they are generally a cultural phenomenon and not manufactured for a market. Folk music regardless of where it emanates has to have an element of being derivative of some other form of music not attached to the associated culture. This would be true of Australian music or any other national form. Chords characterize a style of music. The selection of chords determine this. Mainly, chords in folk music reflect European-based derivatives. The reason is that Europe really employed more sophisticated harmonic structural values rather than rhythmic or microtonal scales as found in other less Europeanized music. Even the highly isolated or regionalized music of for example, the Appalachians contain elements of Europeanized music and even the African-American blues and offshoots from this are derived from hymns, marching bands, classical piano compositions (employed by Scott Joplin or Jelly Roll Morton) however there may be some notable exceptions to this by early forms of field hollers and quills and mouthbow or early banjo playing that come from African musical forms. But the 12 bar blues owes its form to conventional chord progressions even though the melodies deviate from standard European forms. |
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Subject: RE: Chords in Folk? From: GUEST,Frank Hamilton Date: 28 May 08 - 04:56 PM Folk music is not pure therefore it is a pastiche regardless of what locality from which it comes. it contains influences of other forms of music and that's what makes it "folk" because it is recognizable. Classical music is the construct of a single composer. There is no pure "race" and as an analogy, no pure folk music. |
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Subject: RE: Chords in Folk? From: TheSnail Date: 28 May 08 - 08:34 AM GUEST,Volgadon I looked at that link, TheSnail, I wasn't talking about music hall songs, but 'folk' songs, say something 18th century, with a known author You seem to be narrowing your definition. Can you provide any examples? |
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Subject: RE: Chords in Folk? From: Don Firth Date: 25 May 08 - 05:29 PM Well, I've heard that too. But I've also heard harmonies. Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: Chords in Folk? From: WalkaboutsVerse Date: 25 May 08 - 04:28 PM To Don: the waulking songs I've heard are in unison - same task, same tune, same rhythm; someone sings the verse, then the group join in for the chorus, in unison. |
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Subject: RE: Chords in Folk? From: Don Firth Date: 25 May 08 - 03:15 PM WAV, in reference to your insistence that traditional folk singers only sang the "top line melody" and did not make use of harmony or instrumental accompaniment when available. pon•tif•i•cate intransitive verbTraditional singers often did sing together in harmony (ever hear field recordings of a group of women singing waulking songs?), and were known to use musical instruments to accompany songs if they had instruments and could play them. The harp has been associated with Gaelic song for at least 1,000 years and probably much longer. Otherwise, they sang without accompaniment—by default, not necessarily by choice. Because collectors may not have heard them do this does not mean that it wasn't done. The fact is that many collectors have heard this. Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: Chords in Folk? From: WalkaboutsVerse Date: 25 May 08 - 03:02 PM Well, Volgadon, if we are not too impressed by each other, at least we should be reasonable relaxed if we ever meet - in this life or the post-hearse one. |
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Subject: RE: Chords in Folk? From: GUEST,Volgadon Date: 25 May 08 - 02:49 PM WalksaboutHearse, you haven't actually worked in the field of anthropology much though, if at all? I'm not terribly impressed by you having had distinctions in a basic course 20+ years ago and as far as travels go, you haven't actually lived in any of those 40 countries. |
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Subject: RE: Chords in Folk? From: WalkaboutsVerse Date: 25 May 08 - 02:11 PM Is "pontificate" your word of the week, Don?...does this strike a chord?... Poem: 79 of 230: PIE IN THE SKY? From our early childhood, We're taught to glorify Conquering the earth's neighbourhood - Shouldn't we question why? Satellites can aid sibling-hood, But some missions could buy A start for millions to make good - Is Mars "pie in the sky"? From walkaboutsverse.741.com |
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Subject: RE: Chords in Folk? From: Don Firth Date: 25 May 08 - 01:52 PM WAV, we (and this includes you) are all ignorant in many fields. If you have distinctions in anthropology, that may qualify you to speak with a measure of authority in that field (although from what you said subsequently, it doesn't sound like you've followed it up very extensively). Actually, even an advanced degree in anthropology does not qualify you to speak with authority on astronomy, nuclear physics, Baroque music, neurosurgery—or ethnomusicology (which happens to be the academic term for the subject of this thread's discussion). I, for one, have long been fascinated by astronomy and all things relating to it, which includes theoretical physics. It was not my major field of study in college (English Literature and Music were), but I took two astronomy courses in college and have read extensively in the field, and I definitely know more than the average person on the subject. However—if I were fortunate enough to find myself talking with someone such as Michio Kaku or Stephen Hawking, I would ask many questions, but then I would shut up and listen to what they have to say. I would not pontificate to them and try to show them how full my tea cup is (see parable in above post). This would be too good an opportunity for me to listen and learn. If, indeed, learning is the goal. Pontificating may pump up one's ego, but it cuts off the opportunity to expand one's knowledge. Folk music is such a varied and extensive field of study that four years' acquaintance with it, even deep immersion in it, doesn't even serve out an apprenticeship. There are many highly knowledgeable people here on this web forum, and Frank Hamilton (have you checked the links?) is one of the most knowledgeable. Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: Chords in Folk? From: WalkaboutsVerse Date: 25 May 08 - 10:09 AM After it, and travel, Volgamum!, I put pen to paper for Walkabouts: travels and conclusions in verse, and Chants from Walkabouts - see walkaboutsverse.741.com (Also, any degree in humanities is, of course, relevant to any kind of supervision/management, which I've done in the past.) |
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Subject: RE: Chords in Folk? From: GUEST,Volgadon Date: 25 May 08 - 09:42 AM So, you haven't done anything with it for over 20 years? |
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Subject: RE: Chords in Folk? From: WalkaboutsVerse Date: 25 May 08 - 07:38 AM No, Volgadon - I think post grad. study requires a lot of academic effort, but, the fact is, it nearly always involves focusing a lot time on some micro matter, which I didn't go for; however, the undergrad. courses I took were good and comprehensive, I feel. |
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Subject: RE: Chords in Folk? From: GUEST,Volgadon Date: 25 May 08 - 07:30 AM Right, so isn't that slightly pretentious? |
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Subject: RE: Chords in Folk? From: WalkaboutsVerse Date: 25 May 08 - 06:37 AM No, Volgadon - to work in anthropology nearly always requires post grad. study, which I turned down. |
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Subject: RE: Chords in Folk? From: GUEST,Volgadon Date: 25 May 08 - 06:10 AM Have you worked in anthropology, or did you just get distinctions in school? |
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Subject: RE: Chords in Folk? From: WalkaboutsVerse Date: 25 May 08 - 05:38 AM I've answered that before, Sue, but I can understand someone not bothering to read the whole of this thread - English, e.g., folk-songs have been handed down and collectors have found them being sung unaccompanied; I'd mentioned Walton's book The Complete Angler, which gives verses and mentions of a song for a fish or two. The problem faced by modern folkies is addressed in the quote from The Penguin Book of English Folk Songs, provided by Snuffy, above - "for those to whom the unaccompanied voice seems naked"; and it's getting worse. Tanglewood - when classical composers have wished to give a nod to nationalism, they have often turned to the folk music of their nation. To Don - why should I bother addressing someone who keeps referring to the "ignorance" of another who did get distinctions in anthropology? However, I will say this - yes, some have been into folk for a long time: and their selections/choices may have been good or bad for all that time. Others, with a good background and some good fortune, may quickly work out the way to go. |
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Subject: RE: Chords in Folk? From: Don Firth Date: 24 May 08 - 07:44 PM WAV, in the spirit of trying to avoid making an ass of yourself by arguing with those who have been involved deeply with folk music all their lives and who have impeccable credentials, you might make an effort to find out who Frank Hamilton is and try thinking a bit about what he says instead of just arguing with him out of your own ignorance. More. Still more Unless you've been at something all your life (and sometimes even then), there are people you should just shut up and listen to. If you stop talking so much yourself, you might actually learn something. Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: Chords in Folk? From: Tangledwood Date: 24 May 08 - 07:19 PM "I think folk is the more local and less "a pastiche of varied influences and forms." " Are you referring to a specific piece of music or the entire genre? The answer to that would surely give completely different conclusions. |
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Subject: RE: Chords in Folk? From: Sue Allan Date: 24 May 08 - 07:10 PM Folk music may be a local variant of varied influences and forms surely? But what about Frank Hamilton's other points WAV? E: (1) "the notion that 'it has always been done this way' is a kind of artistic fallacy. It may not have been." Or: (2)"the unaccompanied ballad has its own merits but is by no means the definitive source." What's your response to these? |
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Subject: RE: Chords in Folk? From: WalkaboutsVerse Date: 24 May 08 - 05:37 PM "Folk music is not classical music in that it tends to be a pastiche of varied influences and forms" (Frank Hamilton)...on the contrary, I think folk is the more local and less "a pastiche of varied influences and forms." |
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Subject: RE: Chords in Folk? From: GUEST,Frank Hamilton Date: 24 May 08 - 05:04 PM Since a folk song had to start somewhere, it becomes a mystery as to whether it started as a harmonized piece of music or an untrained melody suggesting chordal implications. Most European-based music suggests harmony of some sort defined by chordal patterns that have survived in a specific tradition of music. The unaccompanied ballad has its own merits but is by no means the definitive source. Folk music is not classical music in that it tends to be a pastiche of varied influences and forms. The times the unaccompanied ballad sounds best is when the untrained musician leaves it alone and doesn't try to harmonize it without understanding the harmonic nature of the melody. If folk music has a relevance today, then it requires a study of it historically and an interpretive input by contemporary standards. Without the latter, the performance of folk music is relegated to a slavish imitation of the past which is robbed of its true authenticity since it has been taken out of its historical time. Folk song scholarship is not just the unearthing of texts and their study but includes a musical timeline that can be identified. There is something a bit oxymoronic about folk music scholarship. Folk music is a social music that defies putting it into a glass case or museum. It constantly changes. This is why a folk song has "variants". A song may be sung one way on one side of town and different on the other side. There is something to be said for an unaccompanied song but a case can be justly made for a "variant" that has a tasteful accompaniment which may give it a new dimension. As in the study of logic, the notion that "it has always been done this way" is a kind of artistic fallacy. It may not have been. Antiquarians are generally on the losing side of history. |
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Subject: RE: Chords in Folk? From: GUEST,cStu Date: 23 May 08 - 09:17 PM Are you all still here? |
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Subject: RE: Chords in Folk? From: Jack Blandiver Date: 23 May 08 - 07:23 PM 600 |
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Subject: RE: Chords in Folk? From: GUEST,Jon Date: 23 May 08 - 06:51 PM it's wrong to say that English traditional music is ALL about the tune; it's not wrong to say that it's MOSTLY about the tune?. IMO, English traditional songs are MOSTLY about the words. However you do it, the chosen tune is a device to carry the words. With the dance music. I would say the rhythm is more than the melody itself (or possible accompaniment). fwiw and just my outlook: Re chords and harmonies, personally I don't see anything untraditional in using or not using them as you see right for the piece in question and as resources allow. I can't explain it but I'd suggest it really comes down to what you feel is in keeping and fits with that. |
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Subject: RE: Chords in Folk? From: GUEST Date: 23 May 08 - 06:30 PM but, frankly, I'm still not sure if I should record (some) of my own selection of E. trads with the single-line melody on keyboards..? As long as you record them, any way will do. You have a brilliant voice. It shines in the same way that your poetry does. Keep up the good work, and forget what everyone else says. You are the man! You may even be God! |
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Subject: RE: Chords in Folk? From: Def Shepard Date: 23 May 08 - 05:30 PM You're the only one that really cares, because when alls said and this really all about you isn't it? what you do, what you sing, what you think, your websites you twist others ideas around to make it sound like you thought of it, you twist other people's words around to make it sound like those people agree with you. "doesn't that, from Snuffy, bring us back to what I said about half way through this never dead thread? No it doesn't. |
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Subject: RE: Chords in Folk? From: WalkaboutsVerse Date: 23 May 08 - 04:54 PM So, without being stuffy, doesn't that, from Snuffy, bring us back to what I said about half way through this never dead thread - it's wrong to say that English traditional music is ALL about the tune; it's not wrong to say that it's MOSTLY about the tune?...but, frankly, I'm still not sure if I should record (some) of my own selection of E. trads with the single-line melody on keyboards..? But spare a thought for Sedayne - pulled from pillar to post/Mudcat to Harvest Home by adoring fans! |
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Subject: RE: Chords in Folk? From: Snuffy Date: 23 May 08 - 04:12 PM From the Introduction by Vaughan-Williams and Lloyd to the Penguin Book of English Folk Songs We would like to give a few suggestions for singing the songs in this book. The ideal way to sing an English folk song, of course, is unaccompanied. Our melodies were made to be sung that way, and much of their tonal beauty and delightful suppleness comes from the fact that they have been traditionally free from harmonic or rhythmic accompaniment. They are best suited to stand on their own, and we rather agree with the Dorset countryman who commented on the professional singer of folk songs: 'Of course it's nice for him to have the piano when he's singing, but it does make it very awkward for the listener.' |
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Subject: RE: Chords in Folk? From: GUEST,Nigel Spencer Date: 23 May 08 - 03:57 PM "And please note: this is my only discussion forum since getting locked out of Harvest Home owing to a technical glitch since we switched to Fire-Fox". Please come back, Sedayne! It's dull without you and we all feel terribly lonely. They let me in with Firefox... |
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Subject: RE: Chords in Folk? From: GUEST,Volgadon Date: 23 May 08 - 02:37 PM I looked at that link, TheSnail, I wasn't talking about music hall songs, but 'folk' songs, say something 18th century, with a known author. |
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Subject: RE: Chords in Folk? From: Don Firth Date: 23 May 08 - 01:31 PM "To Don Firth: so what do you call the chants, drums and flauting of Amerindians?... 'traditional American music'?" First of all, Native American music is not my field of study, so I would leave the terminology to those whose field it is. Unless informed otherwise by someone qualified to speak on the subject, I would probably refer to it as "traditional Native American music." So what's your point in asking that question? Don Firth P. S. Not to put too fine a point on it, I try not to pontificate on subjects I know little about. I listen to those who do know. |
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Subject: RE: Chords in Folk? From: Def Shepard Date: 23 May 08 - 01:24 PM Oh, I am extremely secure in myself, boy, you, on the other hand seem to have this need to constantly remind people of your qualifications, your alleged accomplishments etc etc. You annoy me to no end, you are egotistical, you think yourself better and more qualified than anyone else here (which I assure you, you are not) As Ruth Archer has stated, there are those here with more than you can ever hope to have or hope to be and yet, they do not feel the need to brag about it. I would hazard a guess that your need to brag is itself rooted in insecurity, and you feel the need to pass what is in you off onto someone else. There is nothing cheap about what I say to you, I am, in fact, investing more than I think you're worth in what I do say. You'll never learn because you think you know it all already and because of that, and once more Ruth Archer has the right of it, you are plain and simply a fool, and bore. Dismissed. |
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Subject: RE: Chords in Folk? From: WalkaboutsVerse Date: 23 May 08 - 01:04 PM One of the likeable qualities of the late great Bob Copper, DS, is that he was secure in himself, and didn't get the urge to repeatedly take cheap-shots at someone. |
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Subject: RE: Chords in Folk? From: WalkaboutsVerse Date: 23 May 08 - 12:41 PM Thanks for Tynemouth Station market, Sedayne, I'll try there sometime. I actually got Hymns Ancient and Modern from the Oxfam shop in Newcastle - so I no longer have to keep bothering the local library for that one. |
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Subject: RE: Chords in Folk? From: Def Shepard Date: 23 May 08 - 12:36 PM "Bob Copper's A Song for All Seasons " I recently picked this up at a library sale near where I live. I must admit my knowledge of The Coppers was minimal at best, but this book has opened up whole new vistas for me, so you see, Walkaboutsverse you can never know it all, you can never ever stop learning. Someone said to me once, to stop learning is to stop living. I believe that. |
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Subject: RE: Chords in Folk? From: Def Shepard Date: 23 May 08 - 12:32 PM Don, a very well told tale indeed. There are those who need to pay attention to it. |
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Subject: RE: Chords in Folk? From: Jack Blandiver Date: 23 May 08 - 12:29 PM Mudcat's a good place to start but there are some alarming omissions; better still is to dig into the threads themselves, where one finds songs not included & some highly informed discussion on variants. The Penguin Book has been touched by the hand of Bert Lloyd and may not be all it pretends to be, but still an invaluable reference book. I would have though such a book would be a permanent fixture on the bookshelves of anyone with even a passing interest in traditional song. The songs are given with single-line melody, with a few examples of suggested accompaniment, but being musically illiterate (not out of choice, it's actually a form of dyslexia) this doesn't bother me in the slightest, tending as I do to source songs from singers & recordings, and effect my own accompaniments accordingly*. I believe there is a new edition, with EC on the cover, rather than the old dancing bear, but otherwise it's the same book. The deeper you dig the better it is, generally speaking. Scour the second-hand bookshops & flee-markets - there's some good book stalls at Tynemouth Station on a Saturday where I've picked up any amount of old ballad collections and stuff; Bob Copper's A Song for All Seasons for example and the invaluable Faber Book of Popular Verse. * Interesting perhaps in the context of this thread, is that whilst I do use a variety of instruments to accompany my performances, I rarely deviate from the melody of the song I'm singing, nor ever use chords as such. |
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Subject: RE: Chords in Folk? From: GUEST,John from Kemsing Date: 23 May 08 - 11:35 AM WAV, "Marrowbones" gives words, melody and chords. |
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Subject: RE: Chords in Folk? From: WalkaboutsVerse Date: 23 May 08 - 11:24 AM On that, Sedayne, it would be nice to be able to borrow either the Oxford or the Penguin books of English folk songs, but they were not within the system when I asked at the library. Mainly, I've used Mudcat's DigiTrad...but can anyone report on what those books are like - do they give both tune and chords, or just the tune, with the lyrics? |
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Subject: RE: Chords in Folk? From: Jack Blandiver Date: 23 May 08 - 11:12 AM All this time quibbling over how to define what is, in effect, an entirely nebulous piece of conceptualisation, could be spent expanding our repertoires and sourcing (and polishing) the songs we already know. To this end I've just been blowing the cobwebs off Peter Bellamy's Abe Carmen; not the one as sung by Bert Lloyd on The Transports album, but the re-write he was forced to do when one producer thought the original somehow too jaunty for what was, essentially, a goodnight ballad. PB recorded this on the album he did for EFSDSS (Second Wind, 1985) but I believe these days it's largely forgotten as the original has been sung in subsequent productions. Traditional or not, it nevertheless has a splendid provenance, a known author who was a master of the traditional idiom, as evidenced by his settings of Rudyard Kipling, and is a killer piece of song-writing in itself. |
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Subject: RE: Chords in Folk? From: WalkaboutsVerse Date: 23 May 08 - 10:37 AM Bur the "..." context here is important as "that someone" was a hypothetical collector of a song of unknown authorship, if you look back, Foolestroupe. |
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Subject: RE: Chords in Folk? From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 23 May 08 - 09:15 AM "...if that someone records it onto a C.D., Foolestroupe, the word "traditional" will/should appear next to its name" Wrong. If the author's name is written on that sheet of paper, then it is NOT 'traditional'... IT IS BY A KNOWN AUTHOR :-) ... even if it is also 'traditional... :-P |
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Subject: RE: Chords in Folk? From: WalkaboutsVerse Date: 23 May 08 - 05:11 AM To Don Firth: so what do you call the chants, drums and flauting of Amerindians?..."traditional American music"? |
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Subject: RE: Chords in Folk? From: Ruth Archer Date: 22 May 08 - 06:23 PM Re: Don Firth's post: well said. There endeth the lesson. |
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Subject: RE: Chords in Folk? From: Ruth Archer Date: 22 May 08 - 06:20 PM "An amazing performer, Ruth, I've seen him a number of times, both alone and with various others. I'll very likely be down to London on 18th October for the ceilidh at Cecil Sharp House with JK and Mr. Gubbins' Bicycle" Good news! And don't miss the Vaughan Williams event at CSH on the 4th of October, either! |
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Subject: RE: Chords in Folk? From: Don Firth Date: 22 May 08 - 06:17 PM "It's a bit more than 'two weeks' into folk for me Don - it was 4 years ago that I first turned up at a folk club, and a year later I started playing recorders and keyboards, and learning those beloved single-line melodies that English folk music, at least, is mostly, NOT all, about." It's all relative, WAV. So you've been at it for four years, have been attending folk clubs, and for three years playing single line melodies on a recorder (now, playing two lines on one recorder—now that's virtuosity!) and hunt-and-pecking on a keyboard. Good for you! I used to hear Alan Lomax ("American School of the Air") on the radio when I was a kid, listened to Burl Ives on the radio ("The Wayfaring Stranger") when I was a teenager, saw Susan Reed in a movie in 1948 ("Glamour Girl"—lousy movie, good singing by Susan). I started actively learning folk songs (American and British Isles) and bought my first guitar in 1952 (you do the math), and I've been at it ever since. In addition to majoring in English Literature and Music in college, I studied folk balladry (Child ballads and the compilations of other collectors, along with field recordings), from Dr. David C. Fowler (A Literary History of the Popular Ballad, Duke University Press, 1968, plus a number of books on medieval scholarship). In 1958, I was asked to do a television series on what is now the local PBS affiliate entitled "Ballads and Books," sponsored by the Seattle Public Library. This series was followed by other television appearances, concerts, "hootenannies," folk festivals, and when not thus engaged, I sang regularly in clubs and coffeehouses. I addition to academic papers I have written in school, I have had some seventeen articles on various aspects of traditional song published in music magazines amd journals. In my various perambulations I've met, talked with, and sometimes swapped songs with well-known performers and personalities in the folk music field, including four Seegers, Pete, Peggy, Mike, and patriarch and ethnomusicologist, Charles Seeger. I knew Sandy Paton (founder of Folk-Legacy Records) when he lived in Seattle. A long list of recording artists such as Richard Dyer-Bennet, Joan Baez, Jean Redpath, and Theodore Bikel, plus scholars in the field like the aforementioned Charles Seeger, and folklorists Archie Green and Roger Abrahams. This is barely scratching the surface of my musical CV, but you get the idea. I have been at it for awhile and I believe I know quite a bit about folk music, it's history, and the manner in which it was and is performed. And I am most certainly not the only one here on Mudcat. There are those here whose knowledge and experience far exceeds my own. So, WAV, you are like a relatively new convert who is trying to preach, not to the congregation, not to the choir, but you are trying to explain theology to a large number of priests, vicars, ministers, rabbis, and imams. There is a story about a young man who wanted to know the meaning of Life, the Universe, and Everything. He went to a well-known master and told him what he wanted to learn. But he explained to the master that he had already read a great deal and studied diligently. In fact, he told the old lama that he was quite proud of how much he had learned and was on the verge of explaining it to him in detail, when the lama said, "Let us have a cup of tea first." When the tea was made and the cups were set out, the lama pushed the pot toward the young man. The young man filled his cup. Then he pushed the pot back to the lama. The lama then took the pot and began to pour more tea into the young man's cup. It overflowed onto the table, but the lama kept pouring until it ran off the table into the lap of the young man's brand new monk's robe. The young man leaped up from the table and said, "What are you doing, you old fool?" The lama smiled benignly and said, "This is your first lesson, and I would have you go meditate on it." "My first lesson? What do you mean?" "You come to me already so full of knowledge that there is no room for you to learn anything more. Go and meditate." Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: Chords in Folk? From: Def Shepard Date: 22 May 08 - 05:53 PM An amazing performer, Ruth, I've seen him a number of times, both alone and with various others. I'll very likely be down to London on 18th October for the ceilidh at Cecil Sharp House with JK and Mr. Gubbins' Bicycle |
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