Chords in Folk?

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 11 May 08 - 10:12 AM

On BBC Gaelic radio, Stigweard, such chanting is played quite often - I think it derives from an old empathy with the plight of Amerindians.

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: Stu
Date: 11 May 08 - 09:57 AM

"except the mimicing of Amerindian chants"

Forgive my ignorance, but like whom?

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 11 May 08 - 09:38 AM

There was, Foolestroupe, quite recently on the BBC a series on the history of sacred music, which , I think, said it was just the chanting of a single-line in churches until the 13th or 14th century, when Italian composers began to employ polyphony. (Must of been 13th, as Jack above mentioned "Summer is a Comin in" as 13th century sacred polyphony, here in England.)
I like a lot of Gaelic music, Stigweard - except the mimicing of Amerindian chants.

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 11 May 08 - 05:51 AM

"Chords are now traditional. Without them for most people, the music sounds empty."

Well, that reflects a severe lack of expression of understanding of music history.

Briefly, Western Music USED to be similar to 'Eastern Music' - there was a series of horizontal melodies, in counterpoint (not in exactly the strict musical definition though). Then Western musicians, after the discovery of the 'staff notation' way of writing it down, began to have named 'composers' of musical works, who discovered various forms of 'vertical' stuff called 'Harmony'. This took a long time to gradually 'corrupt' people (some musical styles remained mostly immune!)... :-P

:-)

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: Stu
Date: 11 May 08 - 05:49 AM

"For Gaelic mouth music they sound pretty damn silly."

Er, except when the exceptional Julie Fowlis is singing with her excellent band, chords and all. Then they sound pretty damn good.

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's unplugged Apprtentice
Date: 10 May 08 - 05:39 PM

"I feel, vital for the cause of maintaining a nice multicultural-world(other than in England, of course)"

Charlotte R

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 10 May 08 - 05:28 PM

I'd written that before, Volgadon - I copy/pasted it from my site; as with ironing socks, very few bother, but it only takes a second to do the link, just in case anyone wants to read more.

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 10 May 08 - 03:58 PM

Why do you have to add your website to every other post?

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 10 May 08 - 03:25 PM

For *some* songs chords are now traditional (mainly, for those songs written since chordal accompaniment became widely heard).

For Gaelic mouth music they sound pretty damn silly.

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 10 May 08 - 03:15 PM

"Traditions exist due to folks being impressed by how their forebears did things; and, accordingly, taking this attitude is, I feel, vital for the cause of maintaining a nice multicultural-world, against the
forces of globalisation/Americanisation – a cause which U.S. citizens themselves should support." (me)
Just the tune played and/or sung well sounds great - I'm impressed by this (not every) tradition of my English forebears. (Tractors replacing enslaved heavy-horses and bullocks is another matter.)

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's unplugged Apprentice
Date: 10 May 08 - 02:22 PM

Chords are now traditional. Without them for most people, the music sounds empty.
There are those who are antiquarians who want to live in the fifteenth or sixteenth century. (and to live in an England that has never existed, and thankfully never will exist)
That's their choice.

Charlotte R

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: GUEST
Date: 10 May 08 - 02:11 PM

Chords are now traditional. Without them for most people, the music sounds empty.
There are those who are antiquarians who want to live in the fifteenth or sixteenth century.
That's their choice.

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 10 May 08 - 10:10 AM

Encyclopedias present a very shallow overview of things. Very dangerous to base an opinion off of them. Read specialised literature.

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 10 May 08 - 05:39 AM

..I accept, Foolestroupe, that Wiki. is more interactive, but remember some do bother to write into the publishers of bound encyclopedias, in a similar advisory way.

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 10 May 08 - 12:59 AM

An "Encyclopedia" is merely the personal opinion of those creating it.

And if you don't believe, try participating in 'Wikipedia'... I have... ROFL.... :-)

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 09 May 08 - 06:20 AM

It was heavily ornamented, chords/harmonies were included, and it was called not folk but "folk-fusion" (I'd say folk-classical) but, interestingly, such music did appear from the winner of last night's BBC Young Musician Percussion Comp. - and, thus, will probably be in the final. It involved a young classically-trained tune-percussionist playing marimba, with four mallets; and a bodhran.

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: M.Ted
Date: 08 May 08 - 05:00 PM

I have already seen the lovely photos--The torch light parade was an elegant touch--and I am completely entertained by the fact that the pub has become world famous. I am pleased to know that the food has gotten better, as well, and the fact that music is alive and well there, well, that's what it's all about--

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: TheSnail
Date: 08 May 08 - 04:39 PM

...and talking of the Harvey's Beer struggle, we celebrated Restoration Day on April 26th.

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's unplugged Apprentice
Date: 08 May 08 - 03:23 PM

I've said what I've said, I mean what I said, your own words condemn you for what you are.

Yes you do love a multicultural world....as long as it doesn't happen in England.

Charlotte R

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 08 May 08 - 03:11 PM

"The imperialists of the British Empire did it, the Nazis did it", CR, again, because Sedayne insists on me responding to everything everytime - I hate imperialism, be it Nazi, Victorian, American, or any other. And why must you use those tactics, Sedayne, I repeat - racism is where someone says they are all like this or that, and I have never done suchlike on this or any other site; I genuinely love the world being multicultural (look here).

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's unplugged Apprentice
Date: 08 May 08 - 02:56 PM

"the stagnation of any tradition will kill it."

Got that right, problem is old weird WAV doesn't get it, and ya know, you can put up your
"Folk song is usually melodic, not harmonic" (The Hutchinson Encyclopedia); Folk "musical structure is the simple repitition of a tune (with or without chorus)" (Philip's Essential Encyclopedia)."
as many times as you want, no one is going to believe it. Mind you isn't that what propagandists do, repeat the same phrases over and over until the populous believes it? The imperialists of the British Empire did it, the Nazis did it and the communist regimes did it, and the idea carries on today with the Americans in Iraq...quite the lineage eh?

Charlotte R

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: TheSnail
Date: 08 May 08 - 02:55 PM

Sorry, M.Ted, but you seemed to be calling on me to defend a position I didn't hold. I was merely suggesting you did a more careful reading of what I actually said.

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: M.Ted
Date: 08 May 08 - 02:49 PM

I had been watching a documentary on Leonard Cohen, and it having ended, I am now looking at a large dead elephant. Since I am an American, I see absolutely no irony in this.

Notwithstanding that, I think we shall have to send those other three recorder players off to find comfort elsewhere, since Walka.. or is not going to reconsider those other lines on the score. Best, I think, to all kiss and make up.

For starters, I extend my hand to The Snail, who I seem to have slighted in some way that I still can't make out. Still, I have great respect for him, rooted in what I know of his commitment to Dwyle Flunking, and also tied to the inspiration I have taken from the Harvey's Beer struggle--

For the rest, life is too short--and now I'm off to sue someone, or eat cold cereal, or some other such American thing--

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 08 May 08 - 02:47 PM

i) but, as you surely know, others have used very different tactics - not just in "the old days".

A classic example of WAVs racist dog-whistling. It's interesting that he picks me up for calling his work self-published, but doesn't bat an eye-lid when I mention his agenda for an ethnically-cleansed English National Culture.

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 08 May 08 - 02:15 PM

...and half Snail's luck!!

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: Leadfingers
Date: 08 May 08 - 01:57 PM

I NEVER thought , on THIS I would post

                         200

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: TheSnail
Date: 08 May 08 - 01:50 PM

Quite happy for you to accept my post of 08 May 08 - 08:22 AM in its entirety, WAV.

I'm also quite happy for people to demonstrate that I am wrong but they seem to be more interested in opposing what you say because it's you saying it which rather over-rates your importance.

I am NOT happy to be told that, because vernacular music was largely melodic in the past, I should not use harmony now given my main musical activity. (I'm the one with the beard.)

Arrangements for our Chippenham FF sessions will be on the website soon.

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 08 May 08 - 01:22 PM

The Snail, e.g., is clearly against me on some things, but is with me "on this one", CS - see above.

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: GUEST,Captain Swing
Date: 08 May 08 - 01:06 PM

Face it WAV - you are on your own with this one.

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 08 May 08 - 01:01 PM

...there's what we want, Ted, and there's the tactics we are prepared to use: I'd like to think I compete/"fight" reasonably fairly for what I want...but, as you surely know, others have used very different tactics - not just in "the old days".

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: Stu
Date: 08 May 08 - 12:55 PM

Anyone seen my camel?

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: M.Ted
Date: 08 May 08 - 12:44 PM

Sometimes I wish for the old days, when these issues could be settled simply, with a straight razor or a broken bottle. Failing that, someone please, remind me to get a life.

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: The Sandman
Date: 08 May 08 - 12:31 PM

no, they[your encyclopaedia definitions are a lot of baloney],believe me,I have been singing folksongs,for fifty years.
folk music can be harmonic as well as melodic,different traditions vary.
the traditions of England scotland wales Ireland use mainly four modes.the dorian,Mixolydian Aeolian Ionian,most of these tunes are suited to harmony,sometimes they are fitted tastefully by leaving out the major or minor third,but with that consideration in mind they are still suited to harmony or chords.
the traditional flamenco music uses different modes,that are suited by flamenco guitar,but it is still harmony.
go out and listen to some harmony groups like the Wilson/OR Copper families.Dick Miles

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 08 May 08 - 12:01 PM

Did anyone bother checking their enyclopedia(s)?...or would opening one be too eccentric, these days, CB? Once more, what I found...
"Folk song is usually melodic, not harmonic" (The Hutchinson Encyclopedia); Folk "musical structure is the simple repitition of a tune (with or without chorus)" (Philip's Essential Encyclopedia).
(And is it not the case that such encyclopedias consult these experts in their field that several of you mentioned above....or why have encyclopedias?)

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: The Sandman
Date: 08 May 08 - 11:53 AM

However, we all love an underdog and I have a sneaking admiration for people who plow their own furrow in the face of overwhelming opposition, so stick with it son.
I love flat earthers too.
most singers perform better when they dont have to accompany themselves,they can concentrate on one thing.
when I do a gig,I sing a few songs unaccompanied,a few with Guitar,and some with Concertina,this provides contrast,I also consider subject material,vary keys and tempos etc,but I do use chords and harmony.
knowing when to use and when not to is important,but not to use harmony as some sort of principle is laughable.
but we all love eccentricity,so WAV how about forming a society.poets against chords and harmony in folksongs.PACAHIF.

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: Stu
Date: 08 May 08 - 11:49 AM

Just offering my support!

My bouzouki is an Irish one (although made in England).

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: TheSnail
Date: 08 May 08 - 11:40 AM

From The Renaissance Cittern Site

In some ways it could be said to resemble a "Renaissance banjo."

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 08 May 08 - 11:29 AM

Here we go again "son", Stigweard!...must you delude yourself?...have you ever seen a "sunshine", CR, above, a "son", or any suchlike from me. And the bouziki, as seen at the Athens Olympics, is a Greek - NOT an Irish - instrument.

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: GUEST,Joe
Date: 08 May 08 - 11:28 AM

WAV - try google but I couldnt find anything.

Of the Cittern-

'The tuning and narrow range allow the player a number of simple chord shapes useful for both simple song accompaniment and dances'

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: Stu
Date: 08 May 08 - 11:19 AM

I have no idea, but you might not want to ask me as I play accompaniment on Irish bouzouki - I must be an anathema to everything you believe about folk music.

Plus I'm not Irish but Welsh/English and love Irish music bestest, and think the Watersonsand Planxty are gods, and also think the stagnation of any tradition will kill it.

However, we all love an underdog and I have a sneaking admiration for people who plow their own furrow in the face of overwhelming opposition, so stick with it son.

It's music - we should just play what we love how we want to.

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 08 May 08 - 10:56 AM

To Stigweard - I like it when MC includes the melody in his finger-picking, and I'd like it even more if he played the English cittern...has he?

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: TheSnail
Date: 08 May 08 - 10:31 AM

Amos

That's silly, Snail.

So it's true! Americans don't do irony.

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 08 May 08 - 10:31 AM

Yes, Sedayne, initially "self-published" using Serif Desktop Publishing and FrontPage - but in several places since: poems in The Evening Chronicle, The NE Poetry Journal, etc.; and some of my prose has been quoted on interactive segments of the ITV local news. (All as an amateur, thus far - apart from free drinks and entry, a few times).

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: Stu
Date: 08 May 08 - 10:28 AM

Yeah! And what about Martin Carthy huh?

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: Amos
Date: 08 May 08 - 10:18 AM

That's silly, Snail. It's like saying there was no anthracite in the ground because no-one defined anthracite--the word--before 1900.

Lots of music, going back thousands of years, probably conforms to your definition. They didn't know it, though!!




A

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 08 May 08 - 10:11 AM

Just because WalkaboutsVerse said it, it doesn't mean it's wrong.

It's not what he says that's the problem, rather the way he says it, turning a basic notion of universal musical practise - i.e. vernacular monophonic modality - into part of an absolutist cultural manifesto, wherein all things serve a central agenda of an ethnically cleansed English National Culture.

There is no right here, but there are plenty of wrongs, along with any amount of opinions on what might have been and why that might have been the case. All of which is very interesting of course, but about the only thing we can prove is that there are no rules, and that whatever we might think about something, there'll always be someone else thinking about it differently.

He has a right to say such things; but in so doing people have a right to advise him how seriously off the mark he is - not out of any personal malice (for example, I would never offer the sort of critical damnation of his work as you do in your opening sentence!) but in the hope that he might take some of it on board and see the error of his ways - not just in his thinking about Folk Music, but his whole self-published & self-publicised philosophy of life.   

Given that, I think Mudcat gives him a very fair hearing indeed.

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: TheSnail
Date: 08 May 08 - 10:05 AM

WalkaboutsVerse

"Folk music didn't exist before 1954", The Snail?...

In order to be called folk music, it has to conform to the definition laid down at the International Folklore Conference in Sao Paulo in 1954. Logically therefore, no music before that date can be called folk music.

M.Ted, would you like to reread my post and try again?

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 08 May 08 - 09:55 AM

M Ted

Those of us who have 'looked at' Medieval & Ren music, know about 'The Ground'... a tradition which had not died out, even by those playing later ages of music...

Just ask any folkie 'accompanying' others - that vampy stuff we play basically still meets the definition... :-)

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: The Sandman
Date: 08 May 08 - 09:50 AM

oh christ,not the 1954 definition
.WAV watch out you could be here until 2023.

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: M.Ted
Date: 08 May 08 - 09:42 AM

Everything about it can and has been argued against, from the idea that there is an overarching "English Folk Music" on--

As to part playing, if there was evidence of part playing, there was part playing--you can't rule it out just because it wasn't written out--even classical music of certain periods was written with the understanding that chordal accompaniments would be improvised, and often by a group of musicians. And folk musicians, now as always, work without written parts-