Chords in Folk?

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 08 May 08 - 09:38 AM

"Folk music didn't exist before 1954", The Snail?...The English Folk Dance and Song Society (EFDSS), e.g., goes back a tad further than that.

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: TheSnail
Date: 08 May 08 - 08:22 AM

While WalkaboutsVerse is an attention seeking clown who writes terrible poetry, is an appalling recorder player and singer and is completely out of his depth when it comes to elementary music theory, does it occur to anyone that his opening post for this thread is basically right?

For the most part, English vernacular music before the first half of the nineteenth century was melodic in nature. (I call it vernacular because folk music didn't exist before 1954.) There is some evidence of part playing, but it is the exception rather than the rule.

Singing was largely unaccompanied solo and dance music manuscripts from the period rarely give anything but a melody line.

The melodeon, which seems such a fundamental part of English traditional music, is a German invention and the anglo concertina derives from the German concertina invented by Uhlig of Chemnitz. Multiculturalism strikes again. The guitar only came into "folk" music in any big way during the twentieth century, probably from America.

Just because WalkaboutsVerse said it, it doesn't mean it's wrong.

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 08 May 08 - 07:12 AM

Superficial, that's the right word.

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 08 May 08 - 06:23 AM

I only mentioned my CV upon belittlement

What you took as belittlement I meant as encouragement. No matter what your qualifications, there is always much to be learnt and much pleasure to be had in the process of learing it. Conclusions are dead ends; definitions likewise, especially for something as essentially undefinable as Folk Music. One would have thought your academic training would have taught you the fundamentals of empirical research so essential to all life's experiences! The more I learn, the less I know. One day, I hope to know nothing at all, but the process of learning only stops at death.

I wonder what use encyclopaedias are for other than taking up much needed book-shelf space & offering very basic & superficial reference. At least Wikipedia is interactive, WAV - see what that has to say about Folk Music - you can always edit out the bits you don't like! But remember - i) always reference your sources, and ii) me doesn't count!

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 08 May 08 - 06:10 AM

I should add that encyclopedias are meant for a quick reference, at a glance, if you will.

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 08 May 08 - 06:08 AM

Encyclopedias often consult other encyclopedias, they don't always undertake in-depth research, so I wouldn't trust their assumptions further than I can throw them.

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: GUEST,Joe
Date: 08 May 08 - 05:45 AM

WAV - the experts in the field are here (although I do not claim to be one of them), people who have devoted a huge proportion of their lives to the study of folk music. Some have many music related qualifications, some are professional performers of traditional music. Who can be more qualified than that?

Whilst you have led a fairly unusual lifestyle, this, along your extremely brief involvement with the folk world does not qualify you to dictate to those who are far more educated in this field than you.

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 08 May 08 - 05:30 AM

I noticed the Young'Uns thread and posted my support a few days ago, Eric.
I admitted I know little of harmony technique, and said I would add "mostly" to my atop definition/conclusion, Marje, yet you accuse me of lack of humility; also, I only mentioned my CV upon belittlement - that's when the majority would defend themselves with their record. And, most importantly, the main issue was NOT about how harmony and chords work, but their use or lack of use in (English, e.g.) folk music. So how about all who read this taking a few moments to look up folk music in your encyclopedias, and post anything they find on melody/tune, chords/harmony - and have the "humility" to do so even if it goes against what they have argued on this thread; I shall repost what I found -
"Folk song is usually melodic, not harmonic" (The Hutchinson Encyclopedia); Folk "musical structure is the simple repitition of a tune (with or without chorus)" (Philip's Essential Encyclopedia).
(And is it not the case that such encyclopedias consult these experts in their field that several of you mentioned above....or why have encyclopedias?)

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 08 May 08 - 04:41 AM

A quick look at WAVs history indicates that he only ever contributes to his own threads, very strange ?

eric

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: Marje
Date: 08 May 08 - 04:38 AM

WAV, I don't know how else to explain what I mean. If several singers sing an A, they are either singing the same A (eg the one below middle C, which I can sing although it's towards the lower end of my range, and so can a male tenor at the top of his range) or they're singing different As which will be one or more octaves apart. If they're not at octave intervals they're not both As. The voices (all on A) will sound different and distinguishable because of their natural timbres, but that doesn't make it harmony.

And if you're still having trouble with this concept, you're really a bit out of your depth. I don't see how you can have strong opinions on harmony if you don't know it when you hear it. Banging on about your degree and your travel experience doesn't really help - many of us in the folk world have good degrees and other high-level skills and qualifications, but we don't regard it as relevant to our discussions.

In this forum there are some extremely knowledgable musicologists, scholars and experts in traditional music. There are also some well respected professional performers. Although I know quite a bit about music and do perform in front of others, I don't belong to either of these categories - and neither, plainly, do you. A little more humility would help to prevent you alienating people who could be useful and supportive to you. The folk world is very forgiving and inclusive, but there are limits to people's tolerance.

Marje

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 08 May 08 - 04:32 AM

Well, WAV, speaking as someone who has both travelled and lived in several countries, I would be far more impressed if you have lived anywhere outside of England and Australia. Travelling and living somewhere are two very different things.

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 08 May 08 - 04:31 AM

As you can see from ' his own ' WalkaboutsVerse thread, he takes delight in himself by spouting more complete and utter rubbish, drivel, crap and total pointless [ well you can't even call it verse ] than anyone has ever done on the Mudcat before.

eric

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: Stu
Date: 08 May 08 - 03:40 AM

Credit were it's due, WAV is getting a right kicking here, but he's sticking with it.

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 08 May 08 - 12:47 AM

And sadly, even I know more about Music Theory and Practice, from what you have demonstrated - and I am only too happy to admit that I have not 'specialised' in the 'Folk Area' like Dick & Jack, and many others here. I now know that I know far less than I thought I did when I was younger... :-)

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: M.Ted
Date: 07 May 08 - 08:40 PM

Having honestly tried here to provide you with insights rather insults to this point, WAV, I am going to change my direction a bit, and tell you straight out that you *are* among people who are who are superior to you--as musicians, performers, composers, folklorists, collectors, researchers, et al.

I am no one of particular consequence here, but I am a both a musician and composer/arranger, and I've accompanied a variety of "source" performers, and helped ethnomusicologists, collectors, and dance ethnographers to recreate music that respected the traditions that they worked with, taught, and generally had fun with this stuff for many years. I've heard all sides, and more than occasionally got caught in between, and there are more and better than me here--

There is an opportunity to learn a lot here, if can stomach the fact that folks like Dick Miles and Jack Campin(among many others) know a lot that you don't--

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's unplugged Apprentice
Date: 07 May 08 - 06:08 PM

'As I've said, CR, I hate imperialism - whether it's Victorian, Nazi, or any other.'

Now why oh why don't I believe you...all your badly written and spelled postings scream othewise, oh pompous one. Enough is enough I've entertained ya nonsense for far too long. I see what you are and the sort of world you would have people live in and the imaginary world you dwell in, and it disgusts me beyond all my senses.

Charlotte R

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 07 May 08 - 06:01 PM

As I've said, CR, I hate imperialism - whether it's Victorian, Nazi, or any other.
I've only "lived", Volgadon, in Australia and England...it's here.

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 07 May 08 - 05:56 PM

travel on a shoestring through about 40 countries

They say travel broadens the mind, so where did we go wrong with you I wonder?

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: curmudgeon
Date: 07 May 08 - 05:56 PM

Just for the Hell of it, take a look at the notes on accompaniment in "The Singing Island" MacColl-Seeger and in the "Penguin Book of English Folk Songs, " Vaughan Williams - LLoyd - Tom

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 07 May 08 - 05:48 PM

Catching night trains with a eurail pass, oh, exciting.....
Have you lived in any of those 40 countries and would you?
Just travelling is quite a different experience.

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's unplugged Apprentice
Date: 07 May 08 - 05:36 PM

"If I hear shoestring one more time, somebody is going to get throttled with it...... "

Me thinks Mr. W.A.V. Shoe-String B.S (hyphenated to be veddy veddy English) protesteth way too much and dwelleth far too much on his over-seas excursions...Wait a sec, isn't that what the Victorians used to do, go visiting in the colonies, and then return to regale their fellow club members with travellers tales...hmmm now why oh why is Michael Palin's series Ripping Yarns coming to mind? *LOL*

Charloote R - an exotic in the colonies, awaiting the arrival of the great white father ;-)

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: GUEST
Date: 07 May 08 - 05:34 PM

"So you, latter, two are the superiors of one who has achieved 4 technical certificates, a degree in humanities, travel on a shoestring through about 40 countries, has placed in folk-festival competitions, has played A-grade junior football and tennis...who's deluding themself?"

Yes. Your posts often make no sense and are full of grammatical errors or misplaced punctuation (as above). Most of all your posts are full of erroneous information. Your self-promotion of both your poetry and your politics is incredibly arrogant and misguided considering both are so badly thought through. Make no doubt about it - you are the one who is deluding himself.

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 07 May 08 - 05:30 PM

Okay, Volgadon - cheaply/on a budget/catching night trains while using a Eurail pass/riding on the top of coaches/staying in low-rent rooms among the people...

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's unplugged Apprentice
Date: 07 May 08 - 05:28 PM

'So you, latter, two are the superiors of one who has achieved 4 technical certificates, a degree in humanities, travel on a shoestring through about 40 countries, has placed in folk-festival competitions, has played A-grade junior football and tennis...who's deluding themself?'

And so it was that, at last, the true WAV appeared, in all his glory.

I note that you lack a degree of any sort in music...hmmmm so I must have been wasting my time when acquiring a degree in keyboard and composition and my current studies in voice, oh and did I mention I give piano lessons?

Charlotte R

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 07 May 08 - 05:21 PM

If I hear shoestring one more time, somebody is going to get throttled with it......

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 07 May 08 - 05:09 PM

So you, latter, two are the superiors of one who has achieved 4 technical certificates, a degree in humanities, travel on a shoestring through about 40 countries, has placed in folk-festival competitions, has played A-grade junior football and tennis...who's deluding themself?

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 07 May 08 - 04:05 PM

I think that's a tad condescending, Sedayne

Patronising I'll accept, but my intention was to be encouraging.

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's unplugged Apprentice
Date: 07 May 08 - 03:00 PM

"I think I know what you're getting at, CR"

You have no idea what I'm getting at.

"And how about you coming up with "three, independent verifiable sources"!"

I'm not the one making the dubious claims and seeing as you failed ,to do so, sunshine....and yes I am being condescending.

Charlotte R

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: The Sandman
Date: 07 May 08 - 12:44 PM

Many tunes (both fiddle type tunes and songs) imply chords. But many do NOT do so at all. In many such cases, putting chords under the tune butchers it -- my opinion of course. English dance tunes often are very chordal in nature, Irish tunes often not, thus accompaniments are often not too much more than one chord, and players of things like bouzouki are often playing the tune with some drone strings sounding. To force standard chords on to these, in my opinion, does real harm, and one needs to provide supporting accompaniment (if at all) with considerably more skill and taste then "Where do I change from C to G?".

This is perhaps even more true for the songs. Listen (among countless others) to some of the old ballads on the Jean Ritchie ballad records from folkways (now reissued   on CD and available from Jean and George). TO put chords under these would be a complete nightmare. . .
sorry I cant entirely agree,standard chords fit some irish tunes,it really depends on the tune.
chords in open tunings work quite well for the guitar,for example first and fifth,with perhaps a sus 4 or ninth,very often the tunes in modes other than the major ,[the mixolydian and the dorian],work with chords providing the third is left out.
some tunes that are very major orientated sound alright with standard chords.
a chord is any combination of any notes more than two,two notes are dyads.
now obviously drone notes work fine as well
alot of scottish/shetland tunes wotk very well with the jazzy chordal accompaniment that Willie Johnson used.
yet alot of these tunes are in the same modes as the Irish tunes,so logically the willie johnson stryle should work for some irish tunes as well.
there is avery beautiful version of Barbara Allen performed by jean Ritchie.Ialso have recorded this sing with the concertina using chordal accompaniment[see youtube dickmilesmusic]very different form JeanRichie but it works.http://ie.youtube.com/watch?v=V_PoPY-mDpA

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: Stu
Date: 07 May 08 - 12:24 PM

Thank the maker I took up the Irish Bouzouki.

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 07 May 08 - 12:03 PM

...I think that's a tad condescending, Sedayne, but, anyway, for what it's worth, I shall add "MOSTLY" to the atop definition/conclusion on my website.

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 07 May 08 - 11:24 AM

It's a steep learning curve, WAV, but once at the top the view's pretty good - at least as far as the next & steeper hill anyway. Whatever the case, the important thing is to keep moving, question everything &, most importantly, don't come to any conclusions.

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 07 May 08 - 11:11 AM

Okay, thanks, and perhaps those behind the above-mentioned encyclopedia were aware of such cases when they put "USUALLY melodic, not harmonic"...Mudcat's Dig. Trad., of course, offers just the tune with a link to a Dulcimer Tab...

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: The Sandman
Date: 07 May 08 - 10:37 AM

: 07 May 08 - 05:50 AM

Okay - but, in several cases, composers such as RVW added the other three lines (and occasionally one more above for boy-sopranos) to our hymns LATER: and some were indeed folk-tunes, yes?. Futher, if someone sings and plays just the tune of an E. trad on, say, an English concertina it sounds great/as good as anything to my ear.
I totally disagree,while accompaniment should be accompaniment,the addition of harmony on the English Concertina is preferable to single line melody,or can make a nice change to single line melody or single line harmony, if used as well, an example is on my website,the Banks of Claudy.http://www.dickmiles.com

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 07 May 08 - 10:30 AM

"The problem with not having a proper Education, is that the less one has learnt, the more one thinks one knows."

:-)

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: M.Ted
Date: 07 May 08 - 10:08 AM

RVW collected folk songs and used them in his work. Those folksongs are available as he collected and transcribed them. Likely someone has done scholarly work that compares his works to the material he collected. If one had the object of playing "E trad" music, the collected folksongs, rather than the composed works, would be the more suitable source.

The hymns that he edited and arranged cannot reliably be considered English folksongs. In the Introduction to The English Hymnal, Mr. Williams enumerates his sources:

The following classification shows the chief sources from which the tunes come:--

A. GERMAN.--(1) Lutheran chorale tunes 16th and 17th centuries. (2) Tunes from the 16th and 17th century Catholic song books (chiefly Leisentritt's, 1567, and the Andernach Gesangbuch, 1608). (3) Tunes of the 18th century, chiefly by Bach and Freylinghausen. (4) Modern German tunes. (5) German traditional melodies.

B. FRENCH AND SWISS.--(1) Tunes from the Genevan Psalters of the 16th century. (2) Ecclesiastical melodies from the paroissiens of various French uses (chiefly those of Rouen and Angers). (3) French and Swiss traditional melodies.

C. ITALIAN, SPANISH, FLEMISH, DUTCH.--Ecclesiastical, traditional, and other melodies from these countries are also included.

D. AMERICAN.--Among American tunes may be mentioned Lowell Mason's tunes, certain tunes from 'Sacred Songs and Solos' and a few 'Western melodies' in use in America as hymn tunes.

E. BRITISH ISLES.--I. Ireland. (1) Irish traditional melodies. (2) Tunes by Irish composers.

II. Scotland. (1) Melodies from the Scottish Psalters of the 16th and 17th centuries. (2) Melodies from the Scottish tune-books of ihe 18th and 19th centuries. (3) Scottish traditional melodies.

III. Wales. (1) Archdeacon Prys' Psalter, which contains the. famous tune 'St. Mary'. (2) Welsh traditional melodies. (3) Tunes by 18th and 19th century Welsh composers, which partake decidedly of the nature of their traditional melodies.

IV. England. (1) Tunes from Day's, Damon's, Este's, Ravenscroft's, and Playford's Psalters of the 16th and 17th centuries (the original versions of these, with the melody in the tenor, are occasionally included as alternatives to the modern version). (2) Tunes by Tallis, Gibbons, Lawes, &c., from their own collections. (3) Tunes from 18th century books--especially those by J. Clark and Dr. Croft. (4) English carol, and other traditional melodies. (5) Tunes by 19th and 20th century composers.

R. Vaughan Williams

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 07 May 08 - 09:51 AM

Two of the oldest English pieces known are the morris-like dance tune in the Coventry MS, which has a written-out ending in two parts, and "Sumer is icumen in", which is in six parts. The Coventry tune is folk by any standard and dates, I think, from around 1240. So RVW harmonizing hymn tunes is not some newfangled alien idea.

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: GUEST,Joe
Date: 07 May 08 - 05:56 AM

"to my ear." - Everyone gets the message, you prefer simple melodies played on the top line...

So why do you insist on claiming that a whole tradition matches something that suits your taste? Just because you enjoy a certain thing, whether it be a food, type of music, does not mean you should enforce your tastes on eeveryone else, which seems to be what you are suggesting.

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 07 May 08 - 05:50 AM

Okay - but, in several cases, composers such as RVW added the other three lines (and occasionally one more above for boy-sopranos) to our hymns LATER: and some were indeed folk-tunes, yes?. Futher, if someone sings and plays just the tune of an E. trad on, say, an English concertina it sounds great/as good as anything to my ear.

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 07 May 08 - 01:30 AM

"melody notes may be altered to facilitate classical chordal movements."

Or modified to fit in with restricted vocal ranges. These may include 'octave jumping', or even '4th or 5th jumping'. In a full '4 part harmony' arrangement, the 'melody' can be passed between parts.

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: M.Ted
Date: 06 May 08 - 07:14 PM

WAV--when you play the top line of anything written out in four parts, you playing a part that was written to fit in with the other three lines--

A rule of thumb may dictate that the "top line" is the melody, but it is the melody as conceived by the arranger--even if it is a "folk" melody, it has been regularized to conform to the conventions of standard music theory--meaning that phrase length, note duration, and scale conform to classical rules, that classical cadences, endings, and ornaments are used, and that melody notes may be altered to facilitate classical chordal movements.

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 06 May 08 - 05:41 PM

I think I know what you're getting at, CR: occasionally the folk-club chorus will do something more-sophisticated than just singing in-tune with the perfomer - I gave the eg of The Drunken Sailor above; and I accept that one of those encyclopedias, above, does say "USUALLY melodic, not harmonic." And how about you coming up with "three, independent verifiable sources"!

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's unplugged Apprentice
Date: 06 May 08 - 05:27 PM

"I have listened, but, to me, those definitions are what actually happens IN PRACTISE at English folk-clubs"

Funny, when I attended university in England and went to a fair number of clubs, and, indeed, sang, what you state as actually happening rarely did...

Charlotte R

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's unplugged Apprentice
Date: 06 May 08 - 05:20 PM

"It's simpler, more authentic"

Proof please, from three, independent verifiable sources. One of them can't be Hymns Ancient and Modern

Oh and......

"After the initial success of the 1861 original edition, the editors of Hymns Ancient & Modern published the second edition in 1875. This became the most successful hymnal in the Church of England for more than 75 years and is still in print today. A supplement of 176 hymns was added in 1889. An attempt was made to introduce an historically more accurate new edition of 1904, but after this failed to sell, some of the less controversial material from that edition was added in a second supplement of 140 hymns in 1916. After 1924, the second edition with its two supplements was dubbed the "Standard Edition" of Hymns Ancient & Modern.

In 1950 the revised edition was published with G.H. Knight and J. Dykes having both edited since the death of Nicholson. Many hymns were weeded out for the 1950 edition as the editors wished, in part, to make space for more recent compositions, and in part to thin out the over-supplemented previous versions. In 1983 the New Standard edition was published; this comprised 333 of the 636 hymns included in A and M Revised and the entire 200-hymn contents of 100 Hymns for Today (1969) and More Hymns for Today (1980).

The most recent (2000) edition is called Common Praise, published by Canterbury Press. It is still used in a few parishes.

It seems the hymnal doesn't even bear the title, that WAV has been using, anymore.

Charlotte R

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 06 May 08 - 05:11 PM

I have listened, but, to me, those definitions are what actually happens IN PRACTISE at English folk-clubs when an unaccompanied-singer performs a song with a chorus, or a ballad without a chorus.

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 06 May 08 - 04:54 PM

It's simpler, more authentic (at least as far as E. trads go) and, for me, more enjoyable.

Simpler, yes; more enjoyable, if you say so; but it's not authentic in the slightest - as has been made abundantly clear by the various & erudite posts on this thread. Why open a thread if you're not prepared to actually learn anything?

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's unplugged Apprentice
Date: 06 May 08 - 04:40 PM

I'll consult with someone who's far more qualified, than a couple of (questionable) encyclopedia entries, I think.

Charlotte R

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 06 May 08 - 04:37 PM

I just re-checked what I'd read years ago on this: "folk song is usually melodic, not harmonic" (The Hutchinson Encyclopedia); Folk "musical structure is the simple repitition of a tune (with or without chorus)" (Philip's Essential Encyclopedia).

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 06 May 08 - 04:22 PM

For me Partch just doesn't work with YouTube-quality sound. Nice to see the staging though.

I like the idea of using antihistamines as stage or band names. Val Lergan (a bit like Val Doonican but even more sedative). Ben A. Drill. Perry Actin and the Zirteks.

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 06 May 08 - 04:16 PM

I think, Sedayne, I'll just stick with the the "repetition of relatively simple TUNES" (atop) as with my English folkie foreabears; and the playing and singing of English hymns in the same folkie style (i.e., ignoring the three lines below the top-line in the full-scores of Hymns Ancient and Modern). It's simpler, more authentic (at least as far as E. trads go) and, for me, more enjoyable.