Chords in Folk?

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 22 May 08 - 05:43 PM

Just as well - JK does more for folk music just by getting out of bed in the mornings than you would achieve in a multitude of lifetimes, WAV.

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 22 May 08 - 05:37 PM

Some of the links on this never-dead thread, DS, have been new to me, but not the one you just posted - I read it a couple of years ago, and, for what it's worth, agree with JK on some things.

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: Def Shepard
Date: 22 May 08 - 04:57 PM

This MIGHT (though I doubt it) be of interst to Walkaboutsverse, writtn by non other than the esteemed Mr. John Kirkpatrick

What English Folk Music by John Kirkpatrick

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: glueman
Date: 22 May 08 - 04:49 PM

Does the title imply that non-polyphonic note formations are inherently folkish? By that token the cheesiest bluegrass tune would qualify by virtue of staccato right hand plucking whatever fancy shapes the left hand was making. Or does rapidity blur the boundaries, the aural equivalent of persistence of vision? Can an angel dance in the gaps?

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: GUEST,Ed
Date: 22 May 08 - 04:27 PM

Every contributor to this thread, apart from himself, thinks that WAV is talking bollocks.

Why can't we just agree that, and agree to ignore him? Is there any gppd reason to keep this thread active?

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: Def Shepard
Date: 22 May 08 - 04:26 PM

Oh, oh...Walkaboutsverse has been called to the beek's office :-D

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 22 May 08 - 04:22 PM

"I only mention my CV in my defence, when such terms as "fool" DS are used against me,"

And if you think a BA in humanities with a major in anthropology makes you an expert on folk song, and more qualified to pronounce on it than others here (which is most certainly what you have implied), you deserve the epithet of fool. There are people here with qualifications in ethnomusicology, for heaven's sake, who have studied English folk song extensively.

In any case, and regardless of your qualifications, many of your assertions are highly suspect from an academic point of view. When you did your degree, did you not have to prove some level of research for your theses? Did you not have to provide a reliable range of sources? In posing some of your theories here, you provide maybe one piece of evidence to represent an entire national body of work (ie, one recording of Joseph Taylor means this is the way everyone sang).

Very poor. See me after class.

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: Def Shepard
Date: 22 May 08 - 04:16 PM

Using Wikipedia to try and prove an academic point regarding is not a good idea, to put it mildly. It's reliability in many areas is questionable at best. Besides which this (Sean-nos) but ONE tradition.
I hope you're not attempting what I think you're attempting (using sean-nos to somehow "prove" that chords don't exist in folk music)

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 22 May 08 - 04:05 PM

I have been "listening", DS...and, back to Chords in Folk?, did anyone bother checking this sean-nos, which I posted above.

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: Def Shepard
Date: 22 May 08 - 03:58 PM

Captain many thanks for that link, a very good rendition indeed, and it's all chords...ooops did I say that? ;-D

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: Def Shepard
Date: 22 May 08 - 03:56 PM

No, Walkaboutsverse YOU constantly mention your CV..oh I did read back..I was making a general observation using the phrase, only YOU would try and turn something back on another person as has been noted already and not just by me. and what you've actually posted has no basis in any reality I know of, and as I HAVE already stated you've made various claims that are unsubstantiatable. Again, try listening to others instead of your own voice, you just might learn something

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 22 May 08 - 03:44 PM

I only mention my CV in my defence, when such terms as "fool" DS are used against me, rather than discussing what I've actually posted - and if you check back, you DID do that.
I said "trained in anthropology" Ruth - and that's a fact (I was, for the record, offered a post grad. place, but turned it down).
To M.TED: it was mostly people (Gaels) talking about his visit, with a few snippets - but I have heard a lot of suchlike on Gaelic radio, which I've enjoyed.

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: The Sandman
Date: 22 May 08 - 03:30 PM

walkabout take this,Willie of the Winsbury without any melody,ALL CHORDS,hope you like it http://www.soundlantern.com/UpdatedSoundPage.do?ToId=1889&Path=willieofwinsbury2.mp3

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: TheSnail
Date: 22 May 08 - 03:30 PM

GUEST,Volgadon

Snail, I'm not saying that it wasn't traditional, my definition only applies to WAV's argument that songs with a known author can't be trad. How do we, those of us on this forum, in 2008, know what was trad? Someone collected or noted them down.

OK, I sort of see your point, it's just that the way you said it, you seemed to be saying that being collected defined something as traditional especially when you followed it up by saying that a song that hadn't been collected was "Unknown" when it must obviously have been very well known to some people.

As to the point you are making, I fear you are falling into the trap of "If WAV says it, it must be wrong."

I consider traditional as something collected. By your reasoning, if Joseph Taylor or Walter Pardon sang something by a known author, it isn't traditional?

For an opinion on that, see here.

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: Def Shepard
Date: 22 May 08 - 03:24 PM

Ruth Archer said, they don't feel compelled to mention these things in every post. Well funny you should say that, I have ;-D..... nope, not going to give Walkaboutsverse the satisfaction, suffice to say I have a couple of relevant qualifications.

While we're at it, lets not forget some more of the real heroes, those that work behind the scenes to make the festivals, concerts and competitions happen, so you, Walkaboutsverse, can enter them, that's real work and frustration, putting them together. The educators, those that go out and remind people of the music, who go into the classrooms and show children what it's all about , regardless of their countries of origin. I love multicultural societies, particularly in England, it adds SO much to the country ; don't you think?

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: M.Ted
Date: 22 May 08 - 03:08 PM

More TV--and presumably, more instant soup--there are a few people here who actually knew and worked with Mr. Lomax, lots of people who have studied his books, and lots more who have listened studiously to his recordings, and a bunch of people who have learned how to play and sing music that he collected--that's what it's about here--

So diid you listen to the music clips? What did you think?

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 22 May 08 - 03:08 PM

Having a BA in humanities with a major in anthropology does not make you a trained anthropologist.

While DS is right, let's not forget that there are also people who contribute to Mudcat who have got some seriously impressive post-grad qualifications, as well as having specifically studied folk song and culture. But somehow, they don't feel compelled to mention these things in every post.

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: Def Shepard
Date: 22 May 08 - 02:52 PM

Indeed..addressed to someone with 4 tech. certificates and a major in anthropology, with distinctions.
Funny you should say that Walkaboutsverse, I was thinking, only the the other day about how some of the brightest, most aware people, I have ever met have never spent a day inside a college or university, conversely some of the stupidest people I've ever met have degrees and certificates coming out of their ears. (there are exceptions of course) Nothing quite matches actual experience out there on the road.Gigging is what I'm talking about, night after night on the grind. Eliza Carthy and her parent can tell you all about that, indeed many Mudcatters can probably tell you tales of the road, that would make your hair curl, not that you'd listen, hiding there behind your 4 tech. certificates and a major in anthropology, with distinctions. Try gigging for 10 or 12 years then some back and tell us ALL about it, until then,
Better to be silent and appear to be a complete fool, than to open one's mouth and have it confirmed

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 22 May 08 - 02:40 PM

Hollow words, DS. - addressed to someone with 4 tech. certificates and a major in anthropology, with distinctions. I just watched, and read all the subtitles to, a Scottish Gaelic BBC TV programme on Alan Lomax - who did NOT say that those trained in anthropology should stay out of the folk scene. You are deluding yourself.

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: Def Shepard
Date: 22 May 08 - 02:00 PM

It is my unlearned opinion that Walkaboutsverse doesn't know what he's talking about, and I concur with the poster, Ruth Archer, more listening and less talking, on your part, wouldn't go amiss. How does that old saying go? Better to be silent and appear to be a complete fool, than to open one's mouth and have it confirmed. I think we know which way you've gone, Walkaboutsverse

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 22 May 08 - 01:44 PM

"WAV's argument that songs with a known author can't be trad"...I stand by that, Volgadon. And, for another e.g., Ewan MacColl's songs will never be trad. - because (C), (P), modern technology, etc., will not allow the fact that they are his to be forgotten, even if some mistakenly think they are singing a trad. song or don't show due respect.

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 22 May 08 - 01:28 PM

Snail, I'm not saying that it wasn't traditional, my definition only applies to WAV's argument that songs with a known author can't be trad. How do we, those of us on this forum, in 2008, know what was trad? Someone collected or noted them down.

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 22 May 08 - 01:22 PM

But I was talking about manufacturing in that quote of mine, Volgadon.

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: TheSnail
Date: 22 May 08 - 01:19 PM

Me

Who is "we" in this context, Volgadon?"

GUEST,Volgadon

Anyone that isn't part of the 'tradition'. As much as I love Walter Pardon, Harry Cox, etc., I won't kid myself, I'm not part of that.

Since I don't seem to be getting my point over, I'd better spell it out. When a song is collected, it is already known to the person it was collected from. It is known to others in their community. It was known by the person they learnt it from and possibly had been for many generations before that. It doesn't suddenly become traditional because someone outside the community collected it.

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 22 May 08 - 01:11 PM

You are twisting peoeple's words again, WAV. I'm quite certain that DS wasn't talking about manufacturing. Love how you tell people what they ment.

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 22 May 08 - 01:09 PM

20 years and counting here - and I consider myself a neophyte. So much still to learn, and I learn so much from the people here - not because they have a "degree in humanities" but because many of them have engaged in serious, specific academic study about folk music and traditions. They have context for their opinions, they can cite academic references - heck, some of them ARE the academic references.

As I said often to your friend Lizzie: more listening and less talking wouldn't go amiss. And it would keep you from looking like a complete numpty most of the time.

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 22 May 08 - 01:07 PM

"1980 I might have thought I knew it all too" (Sedayne)...okay - except for the "too", as I just said I'm still learning, and even gave an e.g. of something I'm currently trying to figure-out (see above, again). And your last quote was regarding manufacturing, DS.

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 22 May 08 - 01:06 PM

"People seem to get highly agitated over the ramblings of this silly man but are quite willing to let statements that -

[before traditional songs are collected they are] Unknown. I'm sure many, many other songs were sung in the 'tradition' (I hate that term, can't think of a more convenient one) but if they weren't collected, or mentioned anywhere, how can we know about them? Volgadon

go by unchallenged.

Who is "we" in this context, Volgadon?"

Anyone that isn't part of the 'tradition'. As much as I love Walter Pardon, Harry Cox, etc., I won't kid myself, I'm not part of that.

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: Def Shepard
Date: 22 May 08 - 12:46 PM

" you may find I was a folkie before I was a folkie." Sorry, no you weren't, nor do I believe you are now. My learning is on-going, one day at a time, one tune at a time, one set of lyrics at a time, and , you know, I still don't know anywhere near enough songs, and I've at it for forty years, if you want to talk about time quantity. Other than as a point of reference, Walkaboutsverse, I have absolutley NO interest in your work, and anyone that suggests they learned most of what they know and I quote "I'd say I learn about 80% of what goes on in the first couple of months (not years)" I'd say not.

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 22 May 08 - 12:33 PM

how has your folk-music learning-curve been? Did you learn most of what you now know in your first enthusiastic year or two? Has it levelled-off at all? Has it gone all pear-shaped?!

Speaking for myself, WAV - I've been an active participant in Folk & Traditional Song now since I was fourteen in 1976, and I'm still learning the ropes, and still making new and momentous discoveries. That said, I suppose by 1980 I might have thought I knew it all too, but I was only 18, four years a folk singer (amongst other things!), but 28 years down the line, aged 46 (which is still young for the baby-boomer folk scene!) I'm still getting to grips with it, and still enjoying the process of being a folk-singer which is an end in itself. It never levels off, let alone go pear-shaped, because no matter where you're at, you can always be better.

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 22 May 08 - 12:05 PM

"But your 'verses' are not really folk are they?"...Have a look, DS - you may find I was a folkie before I was a folkie. One thing I am still trying to figure out, frankly, is this: I'm sure I should record my selection of hymns with keyboards set on the "pipe organ" voice/sound, but I'm not sure whether I should record folk songs unaccompanied or the way I practise them - with just the melody played on my keyboard, set to the "piano" voice...? I have, so far, recorded "The Water is Wide" the latter way - and with a tenor-recorder intro.
And some frankness from you, DS - how has your folk-music learning-curve been? Did you learn most of what you now know in your first enthusiastic year or two? Has it levelled-off at all? Has it gone all pear-shaped?!

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: TheSnail
Date: 22 May 08 - 11:57 AM

People seem to get highly agitated over the ramblings of this silly man but are quite willing to let statements that -

[before traditional songs are collected they are] Unknown. I'm sure many, many other songs were sung in the 'tradition' (I hate that term, can't think of a more convenient one) but if they weren't collected, or mentioned anywhere, how can we know about them? Volgadon

go by unchallenged.

Who is "we" in this context, Volgadon?

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: Def Shepard
Date: 22 May 08 - 11:40 AM

But your 'verses' are not really folk are they? Your background? A degree in the humanities is hardly a 'pretty handy background' Travelling? I've done that, as have my children, it has no bearing on how we perform the music, yes we are a musical family. I stand by, with conviction, what I've already stated.

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 22 May 08 - 11:34 AM

To D.S: at a new manufacturing company, I'd say I learn about 80% of what goes on in the first couple of months (not years), and I've heard others say the same. Folk music is of course a different game and I will learn more about it, of course; but, I repeat, I did come into it with a pretty handy background, and the "tools" to know what to look for. And what I've done so far is very folkie - I travelled etc., I wrote the verses, I found a way to sing some of them (without being able to read or write music), and then taught myself the latter two, via recorder and keyboards. And I think I've done okay as an amateur, placing in festival comp's etc., thus far.

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: Def Shepard
Date: 22 May 08 - 11:13 AM

I had to read, "it was 4 years ago that I first turned up at a folk club" at least a dozen times with, I must admit, a look of complete amazement on my face. Four years you say, and YOU DARE to come in here and try to tell others what is and what is not, in folk music. I have but one thing to say to you, Walkaboutsverse, you may leave the room at anytime you wish, not only are your various claims unsubstantiatable, your pretentiousness knows absoutely no bounds. You'd like to think that you're more than instant soup and TV? The term sound bytes are us comes to mind.

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: M.Ted
Date: 22 May 08 - 11:08 AM

When Malcolm Douglas talks about the collected versions of a particular song, it is important--you are just a folkie newbie, WAV, so it is just conversation--best thing for you to do is to listen to Ernie, Molly, and Merle sing "Dim Lights" about twenty times in a row--a lot to be learned there--

Which reminds me that in American taverns up until the time of prohibition, it was the custom for the gentlemen to informally gather and sing the old songs in improvised four part harmony--many of the songs sung in this fashion were collected in the volume, "My Pious Friends and Drunken Companions", and a number of those songs are among the body of songs typically regarded as "traditional"--

The harmony tradition was widespread much celebrated, and its passing was much lamented, Prohibition(1920-1933) surely killed it, but it had been fading away, even before then, for much the same reason that the old social singing customs were disappearing in the UK--

Even though the custom has died out, harmony singing still is regarded as having a special fraternal and familial quality about it:

Daddy sang bass (mama sang tenor)
Me and little brother would join right in there
Singin' seems to help a troubled soul
One of these days and it won't be long
I'll rejoin them in a song
I'm gonna join the family circle at the throne

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 22 May 08 - 10:57 AM

...maybe "the collector" (Sedayne) became gravely ill on holiday in Kyoto ..?!

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 22 May 08 - 10:49 AM

That's a truly haunting tale, Sedayne

I must point out that whilst based on a certain incident, it is, in fact, the synopsis of a short story I've been working on for a while now, called The Collector. The song is at last sung in a moment of clarity on The Collector's death-bed, but the nurse in attendance at that moment is new to the ward, and hears it only in the context of the ramblings of a dying madman. It only later, upon reading the case notes, that he realises what he's heard, and what himself is now the unwitting carrier of...

It's based on the idea that we remember subconsciously everything we've ever heard, just we can't access it the way we can with things we've deliberately learnt. I have an idea that this nurse somehow cherishes this unknown heritage in the hope that, one day, even upon his own death-bed, it will, at last be revealed. Perhaps he makes some provision for this, and when at last he does remember it, it turns out to be something quite commonplace, or otherwise unremarkable, but none the less significant given its provenance. I don't know - as I say, it's just an idea in the throes of nascence!

But seriously, I think we should have some sort of daily,"Morning Music Fix" thread, with links to such inspirational things--it will make a nice alternative to all this small talk--Why don't I just do it?

Excellent idea, but surfing YouTube is a perilous pursuit; how I got from Dim Lights, Thick Smoke to a video of two Japanese girls in nurses uniforms snogging passionately I'll never know...

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 22 May 08 - 10:23 AM

WAV, that is one definition of traditional, authorship unknown, but hardly the only or best one. Try something found in a tradition. Your trouble is that you decide on definitions and insist on forcing everything to fit. Kind of like inserting a square into a circular hole.

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: Melissa
Date: 22 May 08 - 10:17 AM

That's a truly haunting tale, Sedayne.

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 22 May 08 - 09:49 AM

That's more like it, JfromK; what "small talk" M.Ted?!... these are important matters...how high a pop-singer's heels are is small talk.

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: GUEST,John from Kemsing
Date: 22 May 08 - 09:43 AM

"A Treatise of Nations":- "Forge, Courte and Kings"
Simon Butler,circa 1488
"......Hughe did then us treat with his song and melody, so finely sung with heart and spirit that my lady did call for more. She would brooke no hold on his expense nor gainsay his source even though she did knowe the verse from childhood as well she knew her kin...."

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: M.Ted
Date: 22 May 08 - 09:08 AM

Thanks for the Santour link, Sedayne--the problem, of course, is that after listening to the posted video, I meander through "related videos", and on to "related videos" "related videos", and the morning is shot--

But seriously, I think we should have some sort of daily,"Morning Music Fix" thread, with links to such inspirational things--it will make a nice alternative to all this small talk--Why don't I just do it?

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 22 May 08 - 08:31 AM

...if that someone records it onto a C.D., Foolestroupe, the word "traditional" will/should appear next to its name.

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 22 May 08 - 08:18 AM

A song may be written down by some means of transcription (of the many possible), or recording of the aural waves. The song may be forgotten by every person on earth.

Someone then coming along and finding this material will be discovering 'a song that nobody knows'.

So There!

I'm not making this stuff up you know...

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 22 May 08 - 08:11 AM

This kills a lot of rubbish posted above...

From an ad inside an Oak Publication copyrighted 1976

A FOLKSINGER'S GUIDE TO GRASS ROOTS HARMONY
Edited by Ethel Raim and Josh Dunson
ustrated by Art Rosenbaum

Here are 42 songs presented in traditional folk harmony in a collection of ways to sing them. The tunes have been transcribed from the singing of the Carter Family, the Stanley Brothers, Woody Guthrie and Cisco Houston, Rosa and Doc Watson, Pete Seeger, the Staple Singers, the Georgia Sea Island Singers and others.

000004/$3.95

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 22 May 08 - 08:02 AM

Such a song was collected from an old fisherman in North Shields in 1927. The Collector, who shall remain nameless, mislaid his notebook and upon going to seek out said fisherman discovered that he'd suffered a massive stroke the previous day which had rendered him incapable of speech or singing. The Collector could only remember the basic sense of the song which was of such a unique quality & undoubted hoary provenance that in his attempts to remember it he resorted to drink, drugs, and, upon the actual death of the fisherman, spiritualism. Alas, all to no avail, whereupon he lost his wits entirely. As recently as 1977 he could be found wandering the grounds of St. Nicolas' Hospital in Gosforth muttering about how he once collected a song that nobody knows...

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: TheSnail
Date: 22 May 08 - 07:46 AM

Melissa

I'd say that a good term for a song that NOBODY knows is "lost"?

Indeed. A bit Zen. How do you collect a song that nobody knows?

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 22 May 08 - 07:05 AM

I can even make bread - I don't need that Warburtons stuff. Just get some flour produced at a local watermill and I'm away...

Interesting link, I'll be sure to look it up if we pass that way during our Norfolk jaunt in June.

Thing with bread is, baking it is fine, but buying it is fine too because, try as I might, I cannot make a satisfactory stotty cake! And as already indicated, when it comes to Fish & Chips, I need a nice shite sliced white with which to make butties & mop up afterwards. And that Morrisons Pumkin & Sunflower Seed bread is rather special, likewise those loaves of Greenhalgh's olive bread they sell here in Booth's. I dare say this is analogous to folk, in that folkies tend to play & sing as much as they consume professional folk product via CDs, records & radio, though I think of it more by way of exotica, whereby if I want to listen to virtuouso Iranian traditional Santour music (like THIS, filmed in the Music Department of Durham University!) I'm hardly likely to try and play it myself, though I will absorb its influence...   

Most of my listening goes on in the bakery these days, or else the kitchen, which is the only place I can listen to music of my own choosing without having to consider the tastes of others. It gets so if I want to listen to something really elaborate, I plan a really long session of cooking - though by really elaborate I'm thinking more of, say, Jordi Savall's masterful Don Quixote album than anything folky as such. That said just yesterday I was playing the vinyl copy of Peter Bellamy's Won't You Go My Way? (Butter & Cheese & all!) that's currently in my keeping, though not, I hasten add, in the kitchen (where, of course, there is no turntable bar the Lazy Susan) but certainly loud enough to hear it from there.

Subject: RE: Chords in Folk?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 22 May 08 - 05:39 AM

...And good morning!, all - lovely day in Newcastle. Firstly, I'd like to think I'm more than instant soup and TV, M.Ted; and I'll look out for that Sunflower & Pumpkin Seed bread, Sedayne. It's a bit more than "two weeks" into folk for me Don - it was 4 years ago that I first turned up at a folk club, and a year later I started playing recorders and keyboards, and learning those beloved single-line melodies that English folk music, at least, is mostly, NOT all, about. But, frankly, despite reading ALL (as ever) your criticisms, I'd like to think I came into the game with a pretty handy background, documented somewhere above, or here, if you like. In an anthology of English poetry, you will find "anon." for a poem of unknown authorship; but, within music, you will find "trad."