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BS: Hillary's Bow-Out Date Contest...
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Subject: BS: Hillary's Bow-Out Date Contest... From: Bobert Date: 08 May 08 - 09:01 PM I'm going for like, ahhhhhh, May 23rd.... But if could be the 24th or it could be never... But, for now I'm stickin' with May 23rd... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Bow-Out Date Contest... From: Bill D Date: 08 May 08 - 09:12 PM When Missouri casts the vote in the convention that puts Obama over the top...... unless, of course, she demands the delegation be polled....and insists on lie detector tests be given to each Obama voter. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Bow-Out Date Contest... From: bobad Date: 08 May 08 - 10:49 PM Hilary is 404 |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Bow-Out Date Contest... From: MarkS Date: 08 May 08 - 10:53 PM Hillary will stay in to weaken Obama and make her look better for 2012. Look for the next fight to be over seating the delegates from Florida and Michigan. Look for a fight all the way to the convention floor. Hope I am wrong, (usually am!) but.......... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Bow-Out Date Contest... From: Jack the Sailor Date: 08 May 08 - 11:30 PM She will campaign until June 3. After that who knows? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Bow-Out Date Contest... From: Ron Davies Date: 08 May 08 - 11:52 PM Depends on how Obama does, especially in Oregon. If he is comfortably ahead--even factoring in a sizable trove for her in Puerto Rico-- so that he can offer her the FL and MI delegates she "won" and still be ahead in delegates himself, I suspect strongly he will make that offer--either in exchange for her dropping out, or to impress the undecided superdelegates of his strong desire to unite the party. And if he does, it will. And thereby bring many superdelegates over to his side. I can't claim this idea--but it makes a lot of sense. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Bow-Out Date Contest... From: CarolC Date: 09 May 08 - 12:03 AM May 20th |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Bow-Out Date Contest... From: Amos Date: 09 May 08 - 09:56 AM June 1, 2008. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Bow-Out Date Contest... From: GUEST,Dan Date: 09 May 08 - 10:09 AM Slate Onlne has a delegate calculator - it's instructive. If you give her all the remaining states except Oregon by an 80/20 margin, and give her Oregon by a 60/40 margin, then give her Florida and Michigan as they "voted" - he still wins in delegates. With the way the superdelegates are headed, I'd say she's out on June 4. Dan |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Bow-Out Date Contest... From: Mrrzy Date: 09 May 08 - 10:54 AM Yikes - what's the last date possible? The convention itself? I *love* the 404 link! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Bow-Out Date Contest... From: Uncle_DaveO Date: 09 May 08 - 11:21 AM I think she's trying to deny him a first-ballot victory in the convention. A few things MIGHT flow from that. One is, possibly the offer of the vice-presidency slot. Two, keeping her name up in the list of future viable candidates, in case he's defeated in the main election. However, if he's elected and serves two terms, it's all over for her, I think. I thought I had a third possible result for that list, but it's gone now. Dave Oesterreich |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Bow-Out Date Contest... From: Deckman Date: 09 May 08 - 11:32 AM I predict she will bow out this coming Sunday morning, and she'll do it as Tim russert's only guest on "Meet The Press." I think that Tim will allow her to speak her mind, and he will be gently with her ... mark my words! Bob(deckman)Nelson |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Bow-Out Date Contest... From: Bill D Date: 09 May 08 - 11:53 AM Well, Tim Russert said she is 'done'...maybe she is going on the show to kick his butt. *grin* |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Bow-Out Date Contest... From: Amergin Date: 09 May 08 - 12:00 PM 20 January, 2009, when Obama is sworn in as President.....I think then she will realise she has no chance in hell. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Bow-Out Date Contest... From: Amos Date: 09 May 08 - 12:04 PM I love that line. "Stick a fork in her. She's done." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Bow-Out Date Contest... From: SINSULL Date: 09 May 08 - 12:36 PM She will throw her support to McCain in the hopes that she can then run in 2012. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Bow-Out Date Contest... From: gnu Date: 09 May 08 - 03:46 PM Hehehehehe. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Bow-Out Date Contest... From: GUEST,Fantasma Date: 09 May 08 - 06:17 PM I think this weekend too. I didn't know she was scheduled as the only guest on Meet the Press. It may or may not be on that program, but I think if she doesn't bow out this weekend, it will come within the week. The superdelegates have turned on her, she is deep in debt, and gains nothing now by staying in the game. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Bow-Out Date Contest... From: Uncle_DaveO Date: 09 May 08 - 07:55 PM I finally remembered the third point (which I'd forgotten in my post above) to be gained by Hillary's effort to carry the fight beyond the first ballot at the convention: Many of the delegates are only bound to vote for a particular candidate on the first ballot; after that, those delegates may vote their own judgment. It is not uncommon for the whole picture to change on the second or third ballots, with delegates who are now freed from their initial obligation voting for a different candidate than the one they were required to vote for on the first ballot. This is the point at which she could gain (if not the nomination) a great deal of negotiating leverage. Dave Oesterreich |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Bow-Out Date Contest... From: Ron Davies Date: 09 May 08 - 10:17 PM Talking of carrying the fight beyond the first ballot at the convention ignores the urgent desire of so many parties in this situation to get a clear nominee before the convention even starts. And based on the recent superdelegate moves, that's very likely--ABC's count even puts Obama ahead in superdelegates already--though others do not. In fact it's actually to Hillary's benefit that the issue be solved soon. It will be obvious to all that the longer the nomination contest drags on now, the more she is to blame. Not helpful to her political options down the road. Her latest remark, quoting with approval the AP article "that found how Senator Obama's support among working, hard-working Americans, white Americans, is weakening again and how whites in both states (NC and IN) who had not completed college were supporting me" is one I suspect she now wishes she had not made. It can easily hold its own with "bitter" as unfortunate statements by the candidates. And it's one she will have to live down--if she ever expects to go beyond NY Senator. In fact, the more she raises that argument--in KY or WV, say--the more she will have to eat her own words--and soon. She's smart enough to know her only chance is that Obama somehow self-destructs--and that's not likely. Though there was a contest recently-- MSNBC First Read, I think--as to how Obama could still lose the nomination. A few suggestions: 1) It's discovered that Obama is only 34. 2) Footage of 8-year-old Obama is discovered--making bombs in Williams Ayers' workshop. 3) Hillary cries 2 tears. 4) Hillary appeals to the Supreme Court, which, based on a 2000 decision, decides that the winner is the candidate who gets the fewer votes. At any rate, when she concedes, the proof of the pudding will be how hard she works to elect Obama. So she will be going back to some of the same states and, in essence, saying she was completely wrong to run him down. If she doesn't, it will be the end of her political career--and she should have thought about that before engaging in her classic scorched earth tactics. If anything, Bill is even more guilty--but it won't make any difference to him-- he'll only ever be an "elder statesman" . But he also should be sent to represent Obama before blue-collar audiences. At any rate, the sooner she concedes now, the fewer words she'll have to eat---before the same audiences. However, I'd be very surprised if she concedes on Tim Russert's program. One of the most memorable exchanges in the debates, remember, was Tim's questioning of her on the jobs issue. He specifically pointed out that in her run for Senate in 2000 she had promised that NY State would gain jobs. But instead it lost them--about 50,000 or so, as I recall. Her excuse was she assumed Gore would win. Not her finest moment--and courtesy of Tim Russert. I bet she remembers that--and is not about to give him the scoop her bowing-out announcement would be. But perhaps right after winning WV--leaving on an up-note. That would be a plausible scenario. So that's my guess. It's unlikely now she'll even wait til the end of the month. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Bow-Out Date Contest... From: Ron Davies Date: 09 May 08 - 10:21 PM Also, as Bill D points out, Tim has said recently she was "done". Probably not the best way to win her heart. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Bow-Out Date Contest... From: Amos Date: 10 May 08 - 04:19 AM Nine more superdelegates, according to today's :A Times, have endorsed Barack. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Bow-Out Date Contest... From: Bonzo3legs Date: 10 May 08 - 06:15 AM Does she have time for a shag in all this d'you think? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Bow-Out Date Contest... From: GUEST,Fantasma Date: 10 May 08 - 09:11 AM For decades now, the pundits have all been crowing over how the Democrats can't win because they lost--pick your choice of terms: Nascar dads or white male working class voters. Clinton wins them in spades and has the audacity to say so, and she is called a racist. Go figure. I believe Obama will be the nominee, and Clinton will pull out soon. I also believe that there is a very good chance that nominating Obama will result in a Republican win in the fall, because of his weaknesses with working class voters--also known as swing voters--also known as soccer moms and Nascar dads--also known as Reagan Democrats.... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Bow-Out Date Contest... From: Bobert Date: 10 May 08 - 10:01 AM Well, Fantz, with Clinton's negatives she certainly wasn't going to beat McCain.. It remains to be seen if Obama can beat back the Willie Horton Swifties that McCain's 527s will crank up but I, for one, wouldn't be all that disappointed if Obama looses as long as he sticks to cmapaign style and pushes forth a somewhat "progressive" agenda... It took Barry Goldwater to get the "conservative" agenda rolling and it has rooled very well since then... Maybe an Obama lose can do that, I donno... But he does at least give a lot of folks the kinda hope they felt in the winter of '68... Ya' got to start somewhere... Yeah, you can blast me for not going with Nader again and that's okay... There are alot of us ol' radical who have supported Nader going back along way who have also found themselves supporting Obama... I was talking with 2 such folks yesterday at a plant sale outside of Winchester... One said he had attended a Clinton ralley in Sheppardstown, WV, which is a rather "progressive" town and there were lots of 60's style old "hippies" (his words) there with Obama tee-shirts.... Like I said, right now the only game in town in "framing" progressive issues and visions is Obama... Or at least the only one who has the microphone... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Bow-Out Date Contest... From: GUEST,Fantasma Date: 10 May 08 - 10:32 AM Everyone insisted Kerry would be able to beat Bush in a landslide. I see predictions here about the same with Obama. That is just sheer obstinate stupidity. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Bow-Out Date Contest... From: GUEST,Fantasma Date: 10 May 08 - 10:37 AM And Obama is neither liberal nor progressive. He is a conservative black Democrat. The money supporting him comes from Wall Street law & lobbying firms, despite his lies to the contrary. Corporate funders are overwhelming throwing their financial backing behind Obama. This will "change the equation" how, exactly--whether he wins or loses? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Bow-Out Date Contest... From: Amos Date: 10 May 08 - 11:02 AM I think, Fantz, you are over simplifying a complex person; and that he is going to demonstrate more progressive work, once in place, than anyone since FDR. I could be wrong. But that's my guess in the dark. As for his lying about funds, what specifically are you talking about? A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Bow-Out Date Contest... From: Uncle_DaveO Date: 10 May 08 - 11:05 AM First, I have been (and remain) a great Hillary Clinton admirer. I think she would make a terrific president. Further, I think Obama is pretty long on rhetoric and shorter on substance than I'd like. HOWSOMEVER, I've finally decided it's time for her to hang up her gloves and concede the fight to Obama. I'm convinced that the Democratic party just MUST mend fences and get behind one candidate, which it's now pretty durn clear can be no one but Obama. Any further divisiveness is just the Democratic donkey shooting itself in the hoof (to mangle a metaphor). And I hope she will follow through with her promise to campaign hard for the final Democratic candidate (i.e. Obama). That would go a long way toward mending some of the damage and hard feelings from the rough campaigning that has gone on, on both their parts. Dave Oesterreich |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Bow-Out Date Contest... From: Bobert Date: 10 May 08 - 11:16 AM So I guess that Obama got his "liberal" voting record in the Senate by being very conservative??? Hmmmmmm, pass the joint over, Fantz... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Bow-Out Date Contest... From: GUEST,Fantasma Date: 10 May 08 - 11:57 AM What liberal voting record? If you are referring to the bullshit, right wing National Journal "Most Liberal Senator of 2007" label slapped on him--it is entirely bogus, and certainly isn't based upon his actual votes. FOR the renewal of the Patriot Act For the appropriations bills to continue the war & occupation FOR the energy company interests on the Energy Act & Mining Act I could go on and on. But the reality here is, people are voting for a personality, not the person with an actual record in the US Congress. Obamamania is ignoring the voting record and the political alliances of Obama--his votes siding with the Republicans on major issues like those I list above, and his deep ties to Wall Street law firms and lobbyists. And he keeps lying about his funding, and misrepresenting his voting record to make himself appear more liberal in order to win the nomination. If you want to call that "complex" rather than cunning and deceiving, go right ahead. It won't change the reality of who this guy is, and what he will do if elected. Be very prepared for the biggest push for the nuke industry since Jimmy Carter. Be very prepared for an escalation of the war in Afghanistan. Be very prepared for the wealthy elite to walk away from the housing bubble debacle, the same way they did the S & L debacle of the 80s. Be very prepared for "energy policy" to become a Wall Street entitlement program for global energy conglomerates to squeeze every penny out of consumers, and destroying what remains of the health and viability of the planet, to get "their money's worth" out of our dwindling finite energy resources through creative Wall Street lawyers rewriting our energy regulations. Obama will talk a very sweet talk about education, family and religious values, health care for all...while the Wall Street corporate looters finish the country off. Remember--the wealthy elite don't need democracy. They need to control the government. The reason why the Wall Street wealthy elite are financially supporting and politically backing Obama instead of McCain? I don't know--you tell me. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Bow-Out Date Contest... From: CarolC Date: 10 May 08 - 11:59 AM I heard somewhere recently that Hillary has the highest negative ratings if any presidential candidate ever (since they started keeping track of such things). |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Bow-Out Date Contest... From: Bobert Date: 10 May 08 - 12:10 PM See yer in a real chery pickin/twistin' mood today, Fantz... (Hey, Bobert, any day ending in "y" is a ggod day for Fantz cherry pickin'/ twistin'...) Normal... And thanks for the sermon... Now I understand everything... lol... B;~) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Bow-Out Date Contest... From: Ron Davies Date: 10 May 08 - 12:57 PM Interesting. Janet pillories Obama for being "a conservative black Democrat". And McCain is getting ready to run against him as a liberal black Democrat. So Obama must be exactly where he should be--removed from the Looney Left, yet actually a progressive candidate. As usual, Janet is wrong about her other assertions regarding Obama. I'll discuss them later. The only thing she's correct on is that Hillary will concede soon--as I said, my guess is the day after her WV triumph--when she can leave on an up-note----but her financial advisors will have told her she can't go on. Not superdelegate calculations or anything else political will drive her from the race-- but something will, real soon---cold, hard cash---the lack of it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Bow-Out Date Contest... From: Ron Davies Date: 10 May 08 - 01:03 PM Not that cash is not political--it's mother's milk. Maybe that's why Janet loves politics so much. She just wants it not to need money. Just call her Janet Quixote. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Bow-Out Date Contest... From: Little Hawk Date: 10 May 08 - 04:59 PM Well, Ron, that would be the way to clean it up...remove the controlling influence of Big Money from the political process. But that is impossible given the present status quo which is that those with the Big Money are the one who determine how the $ySStem works (or doesn't), and how it shall continue to work (or not). That's why I don't expect much (in any progressive sense) from government. I just don't believe in Santa Clause or the Tooth Fairy any longer. I expect more of the same in government, regardless of who gets elected. That doesn't mean there aren't better and worse choices, however. It just means that the range of choice is necessarily very narrow...in any realistic sense, that is. Only a Big Money mainstream machine candidate (Democratic or Republican) can get elected. That's a fixed game. Those who are truly quixotic will vote for Chongo Chimp this time. Or they will do a write-in vote for Kucinich or Ron Paul. Or they will vote for Nader. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Bow-Out Date Contest... From: Bonzo3legs Date: 10 May 08 - 05:04 PM Does she have good legs? Cristina Kirshner of Argentina doesn't! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Bow-Out Date Contest... From: GUEST,PHC UK. Date: 10 May 08 - 06:17 PM Far away in good old Europe my friends and I feel more and more sad for America, a land that in many ways stands for the good, but is often led by those that are able to influence a small percentage, either way, of the American electorate. The land of the hope and the free seems to us further away than ever from the leadership role we need in a world that really needs a new path. We do not think the world needs more war, or more sabre rattling, but a great country, with a leader who can use the economic might of the USA for the simple right of mankind. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Bow-Out Date Contest... From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 10 May 08 - 07:14 PM Including its own poor. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Bow-Out Date Contest... From: GUEST,Fantasma Date: 11 May 08 - 08:37 AM Of course McCain is preparing to run against a "liberal" Dem who happens to be black. The Republicans ALWAYS call the Democrat(s) they run against "liberals". Yawn. No, the thing here is--none of you Obamamaniacs can cite me any examples here. Can you counter what I'm saying about the way Obama voted on the issues I mention? And that he voted AGAINST his own party's majority? Go figure. I guess he was just voting the way he needed to vote to run for president in the general election, eh? What a hypocrite! Obama keeps tooting his horn about how he doesn't take any money from lobbyists. Right, right Barack. You just take it from their Wall Street law firms and partners who technically cannot be easily labeled as a lobbyist. Except that is the business of the law firms. So, he is technically trying not to look like the venal, lying politicians he is. That's OK. We're going to vote for him anyway, right? Because he makes us feel good about how we aren't racist anymore. A vote for Obama is like a nice, big bottle of Valium for Voters. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Bow-Out Date Contest... From: Charley Noble Date: 11 May 08 - 09:10 AM "So, he is technically trying not to look like the venal, lying politicians he is." Strong words from such a sweet person! Charley Noble |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Bow-Out Date Contest... From: GUEST,Fantasma Date: 11 May 08 - 09:19 AM But they are true words, Charley. Obama is a venal politician, like most the rest of them are--but most people are playing the game of cognitive dissonance, to bamboozle themselves. Obama isn't one of the good guys. The good guys were driven out of the game long ago, by people like the majority here who kept insisting they weren't "electable". That is the Clinton game. I saw a great cartoon about this the other day. It is of a multiculti looking protestor carrying placards that demonstrate she is pro-environment, pro-civil rights, and--wearing a t-shirt that says in giant capital letters "KILL THEM ALL"--pro-endless war on everybody from the poor, to the oil rich... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Bow-Out Date Contest... From: Bobert Date: 11 May 08 - 10:15 AM Other than Kucinich, exactly who were the "good guys", Fantz??? And from your good guy list I'd suggest that if they were in Obama's position you'd be puttin' the blast on them, as well... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Bow-Out Date Contest... From: GUEST,Fantasma Date: 11 May 08 - 10:26 AM Bobert, you can look up the votes in the US Congress yourself. If you don't know who "the good guys" are, it is because you haven't bothered to find out. You are taking the easy way out, and voting for one of the two pro-war Democratic contenders. Make no mistake about it, Bobert. Obama is VERY pro-empire, and VERY pro-endless war. He is yer man. So, if you can live with that reality, fine. But don't expect the rest of the world to go along with your dance down the cognitive dissonance path. Obama is one of the bad guys. Lots of people with a functioning moral compass know this--and no, they aren't Republicans. They are the people you always claim to be one of, but clearly are not. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Bow-Out Date Contest... From: Bobert Date: 11 May 08 - 10:31 AM No, I'm not taking the easy way out, Fantz... You are... You made the "good guy" staement and now aopparently you don't have a clue who these folks are... Plus, you have more time than I do... I'm lucky when I have a total of an hour of spare time for the pudder on any given day... And for the record, your new handle for me is "Fantz the Proclaimer", FtP for short, because you are short on facts and longs in proclamations and opinions... Next thing I'm expecting out of you is comparing Obama to Hitler... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Bow-Out Date Contest... From: GUEST,Fantasma Date: 11 May 08 - 10:35 AM Well Bobert, if you have an hour a day to spend on the computer, there is no excuse for you to claim you don't know no better, now is there? Running to the Right: Barack Obama and the DLC Strategy by Bruce Dixon / May 7th, 2008 can be read here: http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2008/05/running-to-the-right-brack-obama-and-the-dlc-strategy/ But that's OK Bobert. I know you won't read it. You won't read it, because you don't want to know the truth about your boy. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Bow-Out Date Contest... From: GUEST,Fantasma Date: 11 May 08 - 10:41 AM And if you, or anyone reading this, is wondering who the above author is...Bruce Dixon is the managing editor of the Black Agenda Report, where this article first appeared. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Bow-Out Date Contest... From: Amos Date: 11 May 08 - 11:23 AM Well, I read it. And found it wanting. These are folks whose heads are full of electrifying, empty categpries about progressiveness, who want to create Huge Changes without doing the hard steps needed. And the article itself was a ruck of blather. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Bow-Out Date Contest... From: Bobert Date: 11 May 08 - 11:54 AM I trust Amos and if he says the article is crap then you can take it to the bank that it is crap... There's a life-times worth of crap out there to read so, FtP, I'll take a pass... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Bow-Out Date Contest... From: Ron Davies Date: 11 May 08 - 12:10 PM So Janet, I deduce from your latest rant that you do not support Obama, for all sorts of reasons, most having to do with the fact that--shock!--money is involved in politics. Of course it does not bother you that if you--and enough other like-minded purer-than-thou voters--do not support him, you will wind up with McCain. So you walk down a street--say in the 17th century-- and see a house on fire. Many people have buckets of water and are trying to put the fire out. They urge you to pick up a bucket and join them. But your answer is: "Let the house burn down. We can build a much better one". And you don't stop to think there are people inside the house. That's your attitude, in a nutshell. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Bow-Out Date Contest... From: Deckman Date: 11 May 08 - 01:53 PM IT'S ALL GOMMA' BE MY FAULT!!! In spite of ALL the bribe money I offered mrs. clinton ... she did NOT resign on Meet The Press today. So, obviously, what ever happens over the next four and a half years will be ALL MY FAULT! I'll start appologising now, but I doubt it will help much! Shuckey Darn! Bob(deckman)Nelson |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Bow-Out Date Contest... From: GUEST,Fantasma Date: 11 May 08 - 02:21 PM Of course you found it "wanting" Amos. Baaaaaa.... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Bow-Out Date Contest... From: Ron Davies Date: 11 May 08 - 02:56 PM Don't worry, Bob. We won't blame you. Tim Russert just isn't one of Hillary's favorite people--for a host of reasons--including his pointing out her false jobs prediction in the 2000 campaign for Senator, and most recently his "done" remark. As I noted, perhaps not the best way to win her heart. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Bow-Out Date Contest... From: Charley Noble Date: 11 May 08 - 03:21 PM Janet- Maybe if you administered a test to see how well we've done our homework you'd be satisfied, or not! You may well be right about Obama but I'm still hoping that he will be a neat gain over the Clintons, and way beyond McKain, let alone the Bush gang. Charley Noble |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Bow-Out Date Contest... From: Deckman Date: 11 May 08 - 03:21 PM WHEW! Thank you for that Ron. I feel SO RELIEVED! Bob |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Bow-Out Date Contest... From: GUEST,Fantasma Date: 11 May 08 - 03:34 PM No offense Charley, but your "strategy" for supporting Obama seems pretty pie-in-the-sky wishful thinking, considering the evidence and the facts about Obama's character (ie he isn't as squeaky clean as his supporters, campaign, and the mass media keeps portraying him to be) and his voting record. Not to mention, things like his truly alarming foreign policy speeches & interviews like the one he did with Democracy Now. So, if you are hell bent on encouraging the status quo to remain status quo, and have no qualms about doing it, by all means vote for Obama. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Bow-Out Date Contest... From: Ron Davies Date: 11 May 08 - 04:06 PM You're welcome, Bob. Now we'll see if I'm to blame when she doesn't bow out right after winning WV. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Bow-Out Date Contest... From: Ron Davies Date: 11 May 08 - 04:13 PM Janet-- "Pie in the sky"? It's your demands for a presidential candidate which embody that. Reminds me of the Music Man--- "that blend of St. Pat, Paul Bunyan, and Noah Webster you've concocted for yourself, out of your Iowa stubbornness, your Irish imagination, and your library full of books". |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Bow-Out Date Contest... From: GUEST,Fantasma Date: 11 May 08 - 06:34 PM Nah. I just refuse to participate in sham elections and political crookery as usual, is all. That you don't like hearing me say that the system is corrupt and the elections & candidates are a sham isn't of concern to me. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Bow-Out Date Contest... From: Ron Davies Date: 11 May 08 - 11:09 PM Well, Janet, be sure to let us know when you find an presidential election which meets your high standards. And be sure to tell us which planet you found it on. But your righteous spluttering continues to be entertaining. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Bow-Out Date Contest... From: Deckman Date: 11 May 08 - 11:55 PM I must admit that today I was truly SURPRISED when hillary didn't quite the race. I told "Bride Judy" that I really didn't think she could be THAT SELFISH! And selfishness is what's it's all about. She'll gladly ruin the democratic party and hand the election to the repubs rather that quit. Bob |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Bow-Out Date Contest... From: GUEST,Fantasma Date: 12 May 08 - 07:39 AM I'm guessing she is waiting to win in WV tomorrow, and then bow out on a high note. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Bow-Out Date Contest... From: Bobert Date: 12 May 08 - 08:24 AM Works for me... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Bow-Out Date Contest... From: Deckman Date: 12 May 08 - 09:45 AM Friends of mine ... yes I actually have a couple ... have been using an interesting phrase for her ... "SHE'S POISENED THE WELL"! Bob |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Bow-Out Date Contest... From: Riginslinger Date: 12 May 08 - 11:16 AM The jury is still out at to whether she will announce her candidacy for the Green Party as that same time she quits this race, or not. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Bow-Out Date Contest... From: Charley Noble Date: 12 May 08 - 01:19 PM Clinton is not going to drop out before the Puerto Rico Primary, Sunday, June 1st. That will give her one more opportunity to rub a little more salt into the Democratic Primary process. Charley Noble |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Bow-Out Date Contest... From: Deckman Date: 12 May 08 - 02:13 PM Charlie ... I don't get it? Doesn't she know that rubbing salt in wounds stings? Bob (still in the Seattle area) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Bow-Out Date Contest... From: GUEST,Freethinker Date: 12 May 08 - 05:26 PM She will attempt to go down to a brokered convention. She and Bill will try to twist Superdelegate's arms. Howard Dean has to step in and at least complain if he doesn't have the authority to make the Supers declare. She honestly thinks she still has a chance and will possibly destroy the Democratic Party if she wins. Forget 2012. Former Dems will remember. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Bow-Out Date Contest... From: Riginslinger Date: 12 May 08 - 05:31 PM On the other hand, the world might be a better place with out it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Bow-Out Date Contest... From: Genie Date: 12 May 08 - 07:11 PM I'll choose the day after the last primary - what is that, June 6? In any case, I DO NOT want her to officially drop out till after we Oreganos get to vote on May 20. Our primary votes never get to count for anything, so it's nice for a change to have the candidates actually campaigning for our affections up here. :D Of course, since we vote entirely by mail and can send in ballots 3 weeks before the election, Obama and Clinton have already been out here a few times to woo us, so even if Hillary drops out before May 20, her candidacy will have had the effect of bringing the Democratic primary race out here. As long as Hillary quits taking pot shots at the guy who's likely to be our Democratic nominee, I'm fine with her staying in until all the primaries are over. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Bow-Out Date Contest... From: Ron Davies Date: 12 May 08 - 10:15 PM According to Wolfson-- who should know-- Hillary's campaign is already $20 million in debt. It will be interesting to see how far a campaign $20 million in debt can continue. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Bow-Out Date Contest... From: Bobert Date: 13 May 08 - 06:58 AM Another loan from Bill??? Boy, Monika is still costin' that boy... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Bow-Out Date Contest... From: beardedbruce Date: 13 May 08 - 07:04 AM Re date: November 4th ( or maybe the 5th, if she can get the courts involved) Of course the Democratic Party should pay off all her debts, and pay her back for any "loans' she made to her own campaign. You are obligated to keep her in the manner to which she has become accustomed. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Bow-Out Date Contest... From: GUEST,Fantasma Date: 13 May 08 - 07:22 AM Enough with the sexist, irrelevant crap, please. Interestingly, the latest ABC News poll shows overwhelming support among Democratic VOTERS (remember them?) for Clinton to stay in the race all the way to the end. So there. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Bow-Out Date Contest... From: Bobert Date: 13 May 08 - 08:14 AM Well, I gueess so, Fantz... Seems that Obama has been on the wrong end of a McCain/McClinton/McMedia gang banging for about the last month... But this is good for him... No, make that, this is great for him!!! Candidates historically have been shielded by their supporters from adversity yet Obam has had to stand in the ring and go toe-to-toe with the Axis of Evil (Mc/Mc/Mc) and it's no wonder that his poll numbers have dropped but... ...with that said politics and life have one thing in common and that is "that which does not kill you makes you stronger"... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Bow-Out Date Contest... From: GUEST,Fantasma Date: 13 May 08 - 08:58 AM Bobert, how about you stop using sexist, volatile language like "gang banging" to talk about Obama's legitimate political opponents. For claiming to be a good Christian liberal, you sure sound like an asshole. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Bow-Out Date Contest... From: GUEST,pattyClink Date: 13 May 08 - 09:15 AM I was surprised to see most Dem voters (64% I think) want her to stay in, then I did the math: 45% of the voters are Clinton supporters. The other 19% are kind and generous Obama supporters who, like O, want her to exit gracefully after the last primary (and maybe fear more damage if she's not coddled on her way out). That leaves 36% who not only support Obama, but realize the damage she's already done and want it to stop asap. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Bow-Out Date Contest... From: beardedbruce Date: 13 May 08 - 09:27 AM 2nd try- Removing sexest language... Re date: November 4th ( or maybe the 5th, if it can get the courts involved) Of course the Democratic Party should pay off all its debts, and pay it back for any "loans' it made to its own campaign. You are obligated to keep it in the manner to which it has become accustomed. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Bow-Out Date Contest... From: Amos Date: 13 May 08 - 10:48 AM Why be so damn touchy, Fantz? You'd prefer "mugging" or perhaps "multiple simultaneous exercise of force-deployment"? Sure, gang-banging is an ugly concept. That's the idea. If you can't take the metaphor, stay out of the language. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Bow-Out Date Contest... From: Bobert Date: 13 May 08 - 11:46 AM "Gang banging" has evolved into a gender neutral generic term... Find something else to "bitch" (joke) about, FtP... B~ p.s. I think you need to get "laid", 'r somethin', FtP... (joke, no make that a "sexist" joke"...) (Oh, Bobert, now you have really lit FtP's fuse and she gonna put a bunch of labels and accusations on ya, son...") Normal... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Bow-Out Date Contest... From: GUEST,Fantasma Date: 13 May 08 - 07:19 PM More than one asshole in this thread, obviously. And you complain about Republicans being beyond the pale? You have become what you claim to hate. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Bow-Out Date Contest... From: Bobert Date: 13 May 08 - 09:21 PM In yer dreams, FtP... You not only need to get laid (sexist joke) but one million times more than that you need to get a sense of humor... When I participate in various anti-war demonstrations these days the one thing that reminds me of the 60's is that the younger kids have what we had and that is a sense of humor... We had folks like you back then... They infiltarted out Radical Student Union when we were trying to iron out details for an upcoming demonstartion and they wnated us to drop everything we were about to do because of some injustice that was occuring at the Phillip Morris Tobacco plant down the road... Well, yeah, I'm sure that had we nothing else to do we probably would have taken on the Phillip Morris thing but things were underway for the anti-ear thing and it wasn't in the cards... So they huffed on out calling everyone a bunch of middle class white kids who didn't know jack from jack... That is you, Fantz... You think you have the market cornered in righteousness... Problem is that you don't have any level of humility and you don't have any kind of sense of humor... You would have been those folks who interupted our meeting in the 60's because it made them feel superior in some way... How??? I'll never understand... But there you are, a "martyr with papers in order" passing judegement down upon me... I tell ya' what... Come out from under your cover an' this ol' hillbilly will match you demonstration for demonstration, will most likely outmatch you in community organizing, will match the years I have put in the trenches working with people living in poverty... My life is transparent... Anything I say I have done I can back up with references... You shoot at me like a drive-by shooter... Whatever makes you feel all warm and fuzzy about yourself... But you got you self-importance way outtta wack... You don't know nuthin' about me yet you think you do??? Haha.. Joke is on you... Come out from behind your mask and let go toe-to-toe on what we have done in our lives for the cause... Until then, get a sense of humor and get the heck off yer high horse 'casue yer sermons are as empty as last years bird's nest... Square business... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Bow-Out Date Contest... From: GUEST,CCCLifford Date: 13 May 08 - 09:21 PM When hell freezes over. Psychopaths don't take rejection very easily. Good luck Obama. Not only will be be fightin the Republicans but "sore loser" Hillary working for your defeat so she can run in 2012. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Bow-Out Date Contest... From: Amos Date: 13 May 08 - 09:37 PM If she does, my projection is, Obama will beat her again. God willin' and the crick don' rize... (Jaysus--I'm beginning to sound like Bobert!!!) A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Bow-Out Date Contest... From: Bobert Date: 13 May 08 - 09:52 PM Lotta that goin' 'round, Amos... It ain't fatal... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Bow-Out Date Contest... From: Ron Davies Date: 13 May 08 - 10:09 PM Bravo, Bobert! You've got Janet pegged. Couldn't have put it any better. Re: Topic As I've suggested earlier, tomorrow would be an absolutely perfect time for Hillary to bow out. She leaves, having won WV handily.--with the spotlight only on her--which it will not be when she wins KY next week--she'll have to share the limelight---an unnatural act for her---since Obama will win OR. "I want to thank the people of West Virginia and all my other supporters across this great country. People of all races and religions who have come through for me so many times.... My only regret is that this time it will be impossible for me to win the nomination and be able to represent you in fighting for your rights in health care, employment rights and so much more. But I want to urge you to support the Democratic nominee, Barack Obama, and give him all the support you have given me...." And so on, doing her best imitation of Sydney Carton--and thereby setting herself up for 2016, if not 2012--and wiping out at a stroke most of the bad feeling her viciously divisive campaign has caused. And if she doesn't do this, she's unlikely to have much support for another run from the very Democratic movers and shakers who originally backed her to the hilt. So the question becomes: will her pride and stubbornness prevent her from seeing her own best long-term interests? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Bow-Out Date Contest... From: catspaw49 Date: 13 May 08 - 10:26 PM Lots of talk here.................Butchaknow................Some of you need to step back and look at these states she carries and the attitudes within them. This is what Dean and company should be doing. Primaries are not the general election and who can carry the important states is critical in November. Like it or not I've brought it up here before and been tromped but once again..........The great unwashed populace of the heartland still have problems with race and are more likely to vote for a woman than a black. Interesting article. That attitude is spread across a lot of the land and what might happen within a closed voting booth may not match with what someone speaks outside. Ohio, Pennsylvania, Michigan, Indiana, West Virginia..........Lots of others too regardless of the primary win or loss.......These places will go with McCain rather than Obama. The best case scenario for Obama would be if McCain offends the reigninng Repub supporters to the point they stay home or vote for Ron Paul. I like Obama but there is a lot of work ahead for him and no way in hell to get much of the silent racist vote. Spaw |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Bow-Out Date Contest... From: GUEST,Fantasma Date: 13 May 08 - 11:32 PM Sounds like you boys work for Rush Limbaugh. Why not just start calling here Clinton the Cunt? I mean, we're gang bangin', she is a whore of a 'kept woman'. Come on boys, show us what fine stuff you are made of, and let's keep it going. Let's see if you can rough that bitch up good, just like you know you want to. Slap that bitch. Who does she think she is? Why she just suck my (I'll leave you fine, upstanding Democrats for Obama to fill in the blank here). Way to keep to the ways of Dr. King, there ol' Bobert ol' hillbilly boy. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Bow-Out Date Contest... From: Ebbie Date: 14 May 08 - 12:04 AM If you were a man, Fantasia, I'd tell you to clean up your language. Do you talk that way at home? Spaw, one problem is that so many people absolutely hate Hillary Clinton. And it is not only Republicans or the far right or the religious fundamentalists. Senator Clinton's negatives would seem almost insurmountable. On the other hand, Senator Obama seems to evoke more of a bemused response. I'm sure that many people won't vote for him becasue he is Black (Aren't we strange! He is as much White.) but the impression I've gotten is that for most of the racists their fear is not vitriolic. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Bow-Out Date Contest... From: CarolC Date: 14 May 08 - 12:13 AM Obama may not get the racist vote, but he is bringing a lot of new voters into the process, and there are a lot of Republicans who are supporting Obama this time around (actually supporting - not just voting for him to cause chaos in the Democratic primary). On the other hand, Hillary will bring large numbers of Republicans out to vote against her in the general election. They hate her that much. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Bow-Out Date Contest... From: Bobert Date: 14 May 08 - 07:15 AM Eb, I'd bet you that FtP (Fantz the Proclaimer) speaks exactly that way at home... She has a serious anger management problem and this campaign is bringing out the very worse in her... Plas, she has *zero* sense of humor... That is a very bad peronality disorder that does not allow her to see any sunshine, just darkness... In all serious tho, it must really suck being her... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Bow-Out Date Contest... From: GUEST,Fantasma Date: 14 May 08 - 07:57 AM From today's Seattle Times: Obama supporters unwise to attack Hillary Clinton Many in the Barack Obama camp, having outfoxed the apparently not-so-formidable Hillary Clinton machine, can't seem to get the hang of winning gracefully. They feel a need to drive a stake in Hillary Clinton's reputation, then dance. If they were smart, they'd heap praise on Clinton and let her finish out the race, however she chooses to do so. That's sage advice, even though offered by Republican mastermind-turned-pundit Karl Rove. Treat Clinton shabbily, he says, and many of her supporters "will remember it by November." Nonetheless, Obamites are throwing victory parties over the impending defeat of a fellow Democrat who has thus far pulled in more than 47 percent of their party's primary and caucus participants. Some take a more direct approach. In anticipation of the West Virginia primary, college students for Obama were hurling insults at farmers and truck drivers holding signs for Clinton. snip Keep it up Obamamaniacs. You are showing your own true colors, and no one but yourselves are responsible for the way you are conducting yourselves here. Your bad behavior reflects back on your preferred candidate. You would be wise to remember that. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Bow-Out Date Contest... From: Bobert Date: 14 May 08 - 09:38 AM Hey, look, lady... You were the first and have been the most vocal and consistent Obvama basher here in Mudville... It's your colors that are showing... Not ours... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Bow-Out Date Contest... From: pdq Date: 14 May 08 - 09:54 AM "Many in the Barack Obama camp...feel a need to drive a stake in Hillary Clinton's reputation, then dance. If they were smart, they'd heap praise on Clinton and let her finish out the race, however she chooses to do so. That's sage advice, even though offered by Republican...Karl Rove. Treat Clinton shabbily, he says, and many of her supporters 'will remember it by November.'" If anyone ever listened to Karl Rove they might find him to be a good natured guy with a sense of humor. He knows public relations very well but is not one who engages in the personal destruction of opponants. It is Bill Clinton who must conduct character assasination to win. Most Americans hope Bill will follow Hillary off the public stage when she loses. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Bow-Out Date Contest... From: Teribus Date: 14 May 08 - 10:03 AM According to the Election Poll-Tracker displayed by the BBC The Democrat race for Nomination is as follows: Gallup - Obama 47% - Clinton 46% - Error +/- 3% AP-Ipsos - Clinton 47% - Obama 40% - Error +/- 3% Washington Post - Obama 51% - Clinton 41% - Error +/- 3% Fox - Clinton 44% - Obama 41% - Error +/- 3% I'd say that that is still pretty close, too close for anybody to be throwing in the towel. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Bow-Out Date Contest... From: Amos Date: 14 May 08 - 11:01 AM T: The issue is not the opinion polls; the party needs to choose a candidate, and so far, the delegate count on Obama's side is still over 100+ on Obama's side, and there is no way for her to win that edge back. Number of states, popular votes, still similarly storngly in favor of Obama. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Bow-Out Date Contest... From: Little Hawk Date: 14 May 08 - 11:23 AM People's comments on this matter will always quite clearly indicate their basic sympathies for or against whoever...because that's the only pair of binoculars they ever look through when they think they are seeing what they call "reality". If the weather was that predictable, you wouldn't even need a weatherman. ;-) And here's the funniest part. They are almost invariable guilty themselves of the very same chauvinistic attitudes they decry in the opposition. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Bow-Out Date Contest... From: Bobert Date: 14 May 08 - 12:36 PM Hey, I don't care if this thing goes to the convention... I really don't... And I'm glad that the Clintons have quit making racially coded comments but the damage was done when they did it in the first place... Now if we could just get the media to follow suit, all will be fine... I don't need to gear them bring up Rev. Wright on a daily basis... The Dem Party doesn't need it either... If McCain's 527's wnat to spend money bringing Rev. Wright into the fray, then fine... Let them spend their money but every time the media says that Rev. Wright is going to ba an issue in the fall it's like $100,000 that the 527's don't have to spend now and will have for the general campaign... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Bow-Out Date Contest... From: Riginslinger Date: 14 May 08 - 06:18 PM "Hillary's Bow-Out Date Contest..." The minute Obama concedes! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Bow-Out Date Contest... From: GUEST,Fantasma Date: 14 May 08 - 06:22 PM 100 |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Bow-Out Date Contest... From: Jeri Date: 14 May 08 - 06:47 PM As I type, John Edwards is endorsing Obama. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Bow-Out Date Contest... From: Ron Davies Date: 14 May 08 - 10:27 PM Mea culpa, mea maxima culpa. Just as it was Bob Deckman's fault entirely that Hillary did not concede on Tim Russert's show, it's entirely my fault that she did not concede right after winning the WV primary. I'm wearing 5 hairshirts, mapping out the quickest (or should it be the slowest and most painful?) route to Canossa, and I have an appointment with the albino monk from the DaVinci Code. The longer she waits now to concede, the less likely there will be support for her to run in 2016 (or 2012, if the occasion arises). At least we have the answer to the question as to whether she knows her own best long-term interests. She has no clue. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Bow-Out Date Contest... From: Ron Davies Date: 14 May 08 - 10:29 PM But if Edwards' move means more of his delegates start declaring for Obama, even Hillary may start to realize the situation. Who knows? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Bow-Out Date Contest... From: GUEST,Fantasma Date: 15 May 08 - 07:32 AM The Clinton camp is well apprised of the situation. You don't bow out in the immediate aftermath of a landslide victory over your opponent. Also, the math that matters most to them now--the financial side--she benefits most by staying in until the convention, so she can work over summer to retire some of her debt. So I'd say they are still running a very good campaign, actually. It is nothing to sneeze at, what she accomplished in West Virginia, and the Democrats ignore that to their own peril. Which is what they usually do anyway, so it all looks pretty much the same as it did last week to me, despite the Edwards endorsement. Edwards was waiting to see who won North Carolina before he declared. Once it was clear Obama could still win a big victory, it was safe for him (Edwards) to endorse. He wasn't about to back the loser, that's for sure. Not if he intends another run for the White House. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Bow-Out Date Contest... From: Bobert Date: 15 May 08 - 08:23 AM Yup, Fantz, that's purdy much it... And she finally is running a good campaign... Just too late to get it half right... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Bow-Out Date Contest... From: Ron Davies Date: 15 May 08 - 08:30 AM Keep whistling in the dark, Janet. But please put you life-preserver on, on the rather good chance the ship goes down. We wouldn't want to lose you. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Bow-Out Date Contest... From: Ron Davies Date: 15 May 08 - 08:30 AM "your life preserver" |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Bow-Out Date Contest... From: GUEST,Fantasma Date: 15 May 08 - 08:32 AM She has always been running a good campaign. She has almost the same number of popular voters who cast their votes for her as Obama has. You can't do any better than that without winning the prize. Say what you will about the Clintons, whom I detest (although I detest Bill far more than Hillary), they know how to campaign to win, and that's what they do. So now, it doesn't have anything to do with what Hillary does. She may well stay in it until the convention. Now, the only thing that matters is how Obama plays it. This is a very volatile situation, and these matters must be handled with kid gloves for Obama to come out of the primaries looking positive. There is no guarantee that will happen, IMO. Because the Obama camp has made some really serious and troubling errors in judgment with they ways they've been playing the race cards and stacking that deck against the Clintons. The result may well end up being that they will lose the white working class no matter what Clinton does for the general election. They as a voting bloc have been treated really unfairly this election--portrayed as stupid, dumb, poor, racist white trash by the MSM. And the Obama camp did nothing to counter that, because driving that wedge worked to his advantage in the primaries. Problem is, it will work against him in the general. So we'll see what the Obama strategy is for the general to try and win them over. But he is going to need a whole lot more than what Edwards and Clinton will deliver for him. He needs a new grand vision to reach out to that voting bloc in particular. They, more than any other demographic group in the primaries, have been deeply wounded, just as unfairly as Obama was with Wright. But you don't see anyone speaking up for them, the way you do the African American church community, now do you? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Bow-Out Date Contest... From: Uncle_DaveO Date: 15 May 08 - 10:05 AM It seems clear to me that Edwards just announced that he wants the vice-presidential nomination. He said good things about Hillary, whom he has favored in the past, so that his credibility is not too much damaged by a turnabout, but he sees what he thinks is the winner and is hoping that his support will gain him the silver medal. Dave Oesterreich |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Bow-Out Date Contest... From: Amos Date: 15 May 08 - 10:09 AM Obama's campaign has been better organized fromt he outset, better financed, and generally less duplicitous. I am curious what the equation of local interests looks like, to the voters in West Virginia, that they ended up with the computation that Hillary would do them more good. Things get sucked out of their normal proportions in the vicinity of black holes, and ecopnomically, West Virginia is as close to a black hole as we have among our fellow-States. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Bow-Out Date Contest... From: Ron Davies Date: 15 May 08 - 09:38 PM Janet-- Your latest posting is positively Shakespearean--full of sound and fury and signifying.... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Bow-Out Date Contest... From: Dan Schatz Date: 05 Jun 08 - 01:45 PM Yesterday, June 4, Sen. Hillary Clinton sent her reporters an e-mail that included the following line: "On Saturday, I will extend my congratulations to Senator Obama and my support for his candidacy." Now this is interesting! Back on May 9, I wrote from my laptop: Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Bow-Out Date Contest... From: GUEST,Dan - PM Date: 09 May 08 - 10:09 AM Slate Onlne has a delegate calculator - it's instructive. If you give her all the remaining states except Oregon by an 80/20 margin, and give her Oregon by a 60/40 margin, then give her Florida and Michigan as they "voted" - he still wins in delegates. With the way the superdelegates are headed, I'd say she's out on June 4. Dan Does this mean I win the contest? What's my prize? Dan (worried about the "prize" and ducking for cover) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Bow-Out Date Contest... From: Amos Date: 05 Jun 08 - 02:54 PM Damn, Dan, that is impressive. You were two days off from Friday, three from Saturday depending on when she makes the actual speech, but you could argue that by announcing today or yesterday that she was going to, she has already bowed out. Very impressive. I had her on the 1st of June, but I should have known she would drag some heels on such a painful event. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Bow-Out Date Contest... From: Dan Schatz Date: 05 Jun 08 - 08:56 PM I'm a native Washingtonian. Punditry is in my genes. Dan |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Bow-Out Date Contest... From: Charley Noble Date: 05 Jun 08 - 09:05 PM Dan- Congratulations! The honor couldn't have gone to a more honorable Mudcat member. Have you considered predicting Obama's margin of victory in November? Please PM me with the number. Charley Noble |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Bow-Out Date Contest... From: Dan Schatz Date: 05 Jun 08 - 09:36 PM I'm also a Democrat. I've learned not to tempt fate. Dan |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Bow-Out Date Contest... From: dick greenhaus Date: 06 Jun 08 - 06:09 PM Wait! Wait! the results from the Estonian primaries aren't in yet! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Bow-Out Date Contest... From: Little Hawk Date: 06 Jun 08 - 07:50 PM Excellent point, dick. Hillary could still win this thing... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Bow-Out Date Contest... From: Ron Davies Date: 07 Jun 08 - 11:12 AM Congratulations, Dan. I foolishly assumed that Hillary was less self-destructive than she is. Thanks to her conduct, now the only possible way she ever has a chance at the presidency herself is if Obama wins in November. And of course she'll have a long wait before her next opportunity. Had she bowed out after winning, say in WV, she would have built up a reservoir of good will in the party for her own future ambitions. And I thought she was smart enough to realize this. Now she has no good will in the party at large--beyond her own partisans. And many women, as well as men, want nothing to do with a Hillary presidency. We'll see just how hard she campaigns for Obama. That will tell the tale on her own future. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Bow-Out Date Contest... From: Ron Davies Date: 07 Jun 08 - 11:19 AM Oh, yes-- now her helpful spouse will also have to break his neck campaigning for Obama---unless of course he doesn't really want to see her president eventually. I've read that if she had made it, his position would have been very awkward--especially regarding donors to the Clinton library and foundation. And his role would have been hard to establish--roving "ambassador" was not an option. Maybe he would have been kicked upstairs to the Supreme Court. I can just imagine the reaction of many Republicans--and even some Mudcatters-- to that prospect. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Bow-Out Date Contest... From: Little Hawk Date: 07 Jun 08 - 11:42 AM You mean to say that it doesn't send a thrill of expectation through you imagining Bill Clinton sitting on the Supreme Court? Maybe as Chief Justice? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Bow-Out Date Contest... From: Ron Davies Date: 07 Jun 08 - 11:54 AM I have no strenuous objections to Bill Clinton on the Supreme Court. But then I'm a Republican who has also supported Obama from the start, has been very impressed with him in a whole range of areas, particularly his grace under pressure, has contributed financially to his campaign--albeit not much in the grand scheme of things--, can't wait to vote for him, and am convinced that he's the best thing to happen to the US since Lincoln. And therefore it's remotely possible that I may not be a typical Republican. And as I said, it's also possible that even some Mudcatters would not be overjoyed with Bill on the Supreme Court. I can think of a few who might object. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Bow-Out Date Contest... From: Little Hawk Date: 07 Jun 08 - 02:14 PM So can I. How did you become a Republican, Ron? And how long have you been one? Is there "a typical Republican"? Goodness knows, I lived in upstate New York at one time, and I was surrounded there by what seemed to be typical Republicans...but I'm not sure if my judgement on that would be the final word on the matter. It was a pretty horrifying experience, but I survived... ;-) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Bow-Out Date Contest... From: Bill D Date: 07 Jun 08 - 03:15 PM Hey, Ron...*grin*...you're as much a Republican as Joe Lieberman is Democrat... atypical? Indeed. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Bow-Out Date Contest... From: Riginslinger Date: 07 Jun 08 - 03:17 PM "Thanks to her conduct, now the only possible way she ever has a chance at the presidency herself is if Obama wins in November." Actually, the best chance for her to become president is for Obama to lose in November, then she can run again in 2012. Or if Obama uses her as VeePee in an effort to win over all the voters he pissed off in the primary, and the Black Panthers gun him down for not giving enough money to Reverend Wright. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Bow-Out Date Contest... From: Little Hawk Date: 07 Jun 08 - 03:33 PM You really are eager to give Ron further ammo for righteous indignation, aren't you, Rig? ;-) Look, I have said before that I will gladly arrange a prizefight between the two of you so you can settle your differences honorably in the ring. Chongo knows all the boxing clubs in Chicago and he can easily get you guys a ring, a time, and a well-qualified ape referee to make sure no one pulls any dirty tricks like hitting below the belt or packing some lead in the boxing gloves. What are you waiting for? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Bow-Out Date Contest... From: GUEST,Zach Date: 07 Jun 08 - 04:29 PM Female down, black guy left. Please don't delude yourself that a coloured man or woman will ever reach high office in the states. Sadly Americans are just not ready for that despite what they say publicly. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Bow-Out Date Contest... From: Ebbie Date: 07 Jun 08 - 09:06 PM "Please don't delude yourself that a coloured man or woman will ever reach high office in the states. Sadly Americans are just not ready for that despite what they say publicly. " Phrased like that, what you are really saying is that you are not ready for a "coloured" man or woman to reach high office... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Bow-Out Date Contest... From: Amos Date: 07 Jun 08 - 09:09 PM Zach: You are a sad sack, sadly. Please do not delude yourself that you know what Americans are or are not ready for. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Bow-Out Date Contest... From: Big Mick Date: 07 Jun 08 - 09:24 PM Folks that are so intellectually lacking that they base their choices on how much melanin is in someone's skin are in a panic. The forewarded crap I get is scary. This is so frightening to them, that many of them are willing to vote for a man who wants to continue sending sons and daughters to fight and die in a war based on a lie. They are willing to vote for a man who wants to continue the failed economic policies that have the middle and lower in such dire straits. In these circumstances, it is critically important that Hillary follow up on her strong endorsement. Those of us who understand the numbers know that the number is 7%. That is the percentage of the likely voters that will not vote for a person of color. If Obama has to overcome that, AND disaffection of anything more than a neglible amount of the Clinton supporters, and assuming the McCain people run a great campaign, we have a problem. I believe that as folks come to know Obama, he can counter a great deal of this, especially if he is smart in the issues he raises, and in who he lets it be known that will be in his administration. "Zach", you are not anonymous as you think you are. And you are a low life. You have confirmed what I always thought about you. Mick |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Bow-Out Date Contest... From: Ron Davies Date: 08 Jun 08 - 07:41 AM "...best way for her to become president is for Obama to lose in November." 1) Not likely, since he will win. 2) Even if he were to lose, she will only ever have a chance in the future if she tries now to move heaven and earth to get her supporters to vote for him. If she does not, how much support do you think the Democratic Establishment will give to somebody who did not help the party's presidential candidate this year after he was picked? Particularly when she has trashed him with one of the most negative primary campaigns in quite a while. Hope this question doesn't strain the poster too much, since it actually requires him to think--probably an unreasonable request. It's actually rather likely that she has already destroyed her chances for another presidential run forever by her appeals to "hard-working Americans, white Americans" and her blatant hope for Obama's assassination. It's not likely Democratic movers and shakers will want to associate themselves with such sentiments---ever. But dream on. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Bow-Out Date Contest... From: Riginslinger Date: 08 Jun 08 - 08:31 AM "You really are eager to give Ron further ammo for righteous indignation, aren't you, Rig? ;-)" And it seems to have worked! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Bow-Out Date Contest... From: Ron Davies Date: 08 Jun 08 - 09:13 AM As usual, a fact-free reponse from the CEO of Smears R Us. Nice to know some things don't change. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Bow-Out Date Contest... From: Riginslinger Date: 08 Jun 08 - 09:46 AM And it's still working! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Bow-Out Date Contest... From: Ron Davies Date: 08 Jun 08 - 10:13 AM Still waiting for a logical answer as to how Hillary will have any chance in the future to become president if she does not break her neck now trying to get Obama elected. Looks like it will be a long wait for an answer--especially from somebody whose only answer to any question is to whine about "the media", Mexicans, religion, or whatever conspiracy theory is flavor of the day. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Bow-Out Date Contest... From: Ron Davies Date: 08 Jun 08 - 10:22 AM Going to a bluegrass festival now. Have fun here. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Bow-Out Date Contest... From: Joe Offer Date: 09 Jun 08 - 02:03 AM Well, I think Hillary's best chance to become President was this year, and I'm sorry it didn't happen. If Obama doesn't make it this time, she'll have a good chance in 2012. But you're right, Ron: she'll have another shot only if she's a good sport and works hard for her party's candidate every term until her next chance comes. If she has to wait until 2016, she'll be a bit beyond the ideal age to become the first woman President - somewhere in her 60's is probably the best age. Who's the next best chance to become the first woman President? Sara Palin? -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Bow-Out Date Contest... From: Riginslinger Date: 09 Jun 08 - 10:08 AM "...only answer to any question is to whine about "the media", Mexicans, religion, or whatever conspiracy theory is flavor of the day." Ron - I would certainly agree with you that the medai, Mexicans, and religion are very, very serious problems. But there are other things to be concerned about too, such as health care, and the economy. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Bow-Out Date Contest... From: Ron Davies Date: 09 Jun 08 - 10:10 PM However, I am not the one always talking about the terrible threat from (pick one or more): Mexicans, the "MSM", religion, capitalism, the political duopoly. Why? Since in contrast to some around here, I am aware that none of these are monolithic . If more Mudcatters were able to discern shades of gray--not insisting on black and white portrayal of a given issue, more would make sense--and none would be the CEO of Smears R Us. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Bow-Out Date Contest... From: Little Hawk Date: 09 Jun 08 - 10:34 PM You are a chain-pullers dream, Ron. ;-) Well, you are when it comes to politics anyway. I note that you are far less nasty when discussing most other things. At least I think so...I'm trying to remember when I've read something from you that wasn't about politics...hmmm...(?) Hold that thought. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Bow-Out Date Contest... From: Ron Davies Date: 09 Jun 08 - 10:48 PM Interesting my point has not been addressed. Silence consents. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Bow-Out Date Contest... From: Ron Davies Date: 09 Jun 08 - 10:50 PM Anybody who wants to pull chains is now invited to pull his own chain. Sweet dreams. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Bow-Out Date Contest... From: Little Hawk Date: 09 Jun 08 - 11:56 PM Your point? I don't even recall your point at the moment, and I hardly care about that. It's your attitude toward people I'm discussing, not your point. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Bow-Out Date Contest... From: Riginslinger Date: 10 Jun 08 - 09:37 PM Sarah Palin - She's pretty! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Bow-Out Date Contest... From: Ron Davies Date: 11 Jun 08 - 09:41 PM I repeat: if more Mudcatters were aware of shades of grey, not insisting on black-white distinctions--and not addicted to conspiracy theories--more posters on political threads would make more sense. But it is interesting that it seems that both the people who insist on simplistic interpretations of politics and economics and the scapegoat seekers oppose Obama. As I said: no wonder that most educated people back him. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Bow-Out Date Contest... From: Riginslinger Date: 11 Jun 08 - 09:49 PM Ron - That leaves you with the problem of defining educated. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Bow-Out Date Contest... From: Ron Davies Date: 11 Jun 08 - 09:54 PM Recognizing and accepting shades of gray, not jumping up to salute every half-baked conspiracy theory one sees, and not looking for scapegoats for every problem--e.g. Mexicans, religion, "the media"--would be a good start. Why do you ask? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Bow-Out Date Contest... From: Riginslinger Date: 11 Jun 08 - 10:02 PM I didn't ask anything. I was simply looking back to your last post. It just seemed to me that you were being vague. You say that "educated" voters were behind Obama, but still you haven't defined educated so readers are left wondering what you meant by that. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Bow-Out Date Contest... From: Ron Davies Date: 11 Jun 08 - 10:10 PM I've given a good start to defining an "educated voter", which anybody can see. As I've noted, it's interesting that the vast majority of educated voters--at least on Mudcat-- seem to back Obama. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Bow-Out Date Contest... From: Riginslinger Date: 11 Jun 08 - 11:33 PM Yes, it does seem that Obama voters have a very strong "herd" instinct. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Bow-Out Date Contest... From: Ron Davies Date: 12 Jun 08 - 09:26 PM It's interesting that there seem to be more educated voters--that is, Obama supporters---on Mudcat than those who oppose him. And those who oppose him tend rather to a simplistic approach to economics and politics, and a desperate search for scapegoats---Mexicans, religion, "the media"--anything but having to actually grapple with their own flaws. "The fault, dear Brutus...." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Bow-Out Date Contest... From: Riginslinger Date: 12 Jun 08 - 09:44 PM There are problems, of course, in trying to prevent mindless Obama supporters from running the country off a cliff, and there isn't a lot of time for trivial pusuits, that is for those of us who care what happens. If we could only get people to think for themselves the world would be a much better place for those of us who truly care. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Bow-Out Date Contest... From: Ron Davies Date: 12 Jun 08 - 09:55 PM Perhaps you'd like to say that last line while looking in the mirror--and you can stop at the word "think". That would be progress--and might even indicate that religion, Mexicans, the "media"-- or whatever your scapegoat du jour happens to be--is not in fact responsible for all your problems. Big progress. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Bow-Out Date Contest... From: Riginslinger Date: 12 Jun 08 - 10:01 PM Obviously "thinking" is not what Obama supporters are all about. They've been overcome by the "Wilderbeast Syndrome," and all they can think about is the asshole under the tail in front of them. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Bow-Out Date Contest... From: Amos Date: 12 Jun 08 - 10:19 PM Rig: That, sir, is blatant stink on your part; your bitter and sour underlayment is showing through rather badly. I think you should apologize, not something I say very often. The fact is that Pbama's presentations in general ar emore thoughtful, IMHO and more rational than John McCain's are, or than Hillary's were. One example, the summer gas-tax party. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Bow-Out Date Contest... From: Little Hawk Date: 12 Jun 08 - 10:55 PM Rig and Ron, Rig and Ron. Man, it just goes on and on. But what will you do for fun after the election is over? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Bow-Out Date Contest... From: Riginslinger Date: 13 Jun 08 - 10:24 AM "The fact is that Pbama's presentations in general ar emore thoughtful, IMHO and more rational than John McCain's are, or than Hillary's were..." I'll admit McCain is all over the map. I think this has to do with the reality that he needs the right-wing-religious-wakkos to compete with Obama on money, so he's more of less prevented from doing much of anything else right now. As far as Hillary, her presentations were far more cogent than Obama's ever could have been. LH - When the election is over, I expect Ron to pick up the self-righteous cause of declaring runaway human population growth to be a very good thing. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Bow-Out Date Contest... From: Little Hawk Date: 13 Jun 08 - 12:40 PM I see. ;-) Well, what is your solution for that? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Bow-Out Date Contest... From: Riginslinger Date: 13 Jun 08 - 12:47 PM Engage in family planning and avoid listening to Ron. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Bow-Out Date Contest... From: Amos Date: 13 Jun 08 - 01:01 PM We need more people, Rig, and it should be obvious. The rerason is simple. Only 1-2% of the human race has the vision and brains to tackle the Big Issues. Right now, there are more Big Issues than ever befo0re, too many for 1-2% of our number to tackle. THerefore we need to raise a higher number of 1-2% brains. This means the totral has to be higher, as well, obviously, or we are doomed. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Bow-Out Date Contest... From: Riginslinger Date: 13 Jun 08 - 01:49 PM Maybe we could figure out a way to get a larger percentage of the people we have to actually engage in the activity of thinking. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Bow-Out Date Contest... From: Bobert Date: 13 Jun 08 - 09:00 PM That's it... I'm going to quit starting threads... This has become a tennis match and, frankly, my neck is gettin sore... lol... Now back to the rigs-'n-ron show... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Bow-Out Date Contest... From: Ron Davies Date: 13 Jun 08 - 10:08 PM Well, if you say so, Bobert. Once more into the breach. Gee, it seems I may have struck a nerve. All I'm trying to so is stick up for logic and evidence, and recognition that issues don't lend themselves often to the simplistic approach preferred by the Obama opposition. But it seems said posters prefer conspiracy theories and scapegoat hunting. And the list of scapegoats seems to be endless. Right now the top contenders appear to be Mexicans, religion, and "the media". But others seem to be waiting in the wings. As I said earlier, it's no wonder propaganda works--with people so easily led by the nose. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Bow-Out Date Contest... From: Riginslinger Date: 13 Jun 08 - 10:35 PM Bobert - You're right. None of this is getting us anywhere. Folks just need to be left alone to make up their own minds. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Bow-Out Date Contest... From: Ron Davies Date: 14 Jun 08 - 10:37 AM As long as people are aware that the only way to keep McCain out of the presidency is to vote for Obama. Any scheme about exchanging votes depends on a degree of trust which only the naive would expect. McCain, as I've noted, believes and has stated that the US was founded as a Christian nation. And that when immigrants come here, they know this. And he will appoint Supreme Court justices who reflect his belief--which is also shared by the religious Right--whose votes he depends on heavily. Only the clueless would not realize this. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Bow-Out Date Contest... From: Little Hawk Date: 14 Jun 08 - 12:23 PM "Only the clueless would not realize this. " Ah, yes, "the clueless". ;-) And what would we do without them? America just wouldn't BE America anymore without the clueless, would it? Nor would most other places! Imagine it. A world devoid of the clueless! What a mind-numbing concept to ponder. Where would we get role models for those "stupid" characters around which most of our comedy entertainment is built? How would NASCAR drivers and crack dealers make a living? What would happen to commercial TV??? And how the hell would the Democrats and Republicans maintain their present stranglehold on the White House without the willing and ready assistance of "the clueless"? And where would George Bush be without "the clueless"? Huh? I ask you that! It's a damned scary proposition. I, for one, am greatly relieved that there is very little likelihood of "the clueless" ever vanishing, because if they did, the world as we know it might come to a crashing end. "Folks just need to be left alone to make up their own minds." - Riginslinger Ah HAH! Now, there is the statement of a wise man. Riginslinger, I am inclined to deduce from that that you may not be securely lodged among the ranks of "the clueless". |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Bow-Out Date Contest... From: Riginslinger Date: 14 Jun 08 - 12:26 PM Well, that's flattering, Little Hawk, but I don't think you'll get Ron to agree. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Bow-Out Date Contest... From: Little Hawk Date: 14 Jun 08 - 12:32 PM Getting Ron to agree with anything would be like trying to talk a mosquito into not biting. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Bow-Out Date Contest... From: Amos Date: 14 Jun 08 - 01:03 PM Folks need to make up their own minds. They need to do it on the best and clearest information they can get. The fact that on the eve of the invasion of Iraq up to 60% of the American public, thereabouts, believed Hussein had a direct connection with the attacks on the WTC is an appalling reminder that the commodity of stupidity or wilful ignorance and hypnotic suggestibility is still a very hot market. Those who promulgate snide and hate-filled generalizations --a sin of which I am not wholly innocent--need to consider what they are contributing to the matrix of knowledge--or lack thereof--of the culture into which they inject their statements. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Bow-Out Date Contest... From: Riginslinger Date: 14 Jun 08 - 01:11 PM The last time I looked into it, there were still a large number of people who thought Saddam Hussein was involved in the 911 attacks. It's totally amazing to me. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Bow-Out Date Contest... From: Little Hawk Date: 14 Jun 08 - 04:01 PM There will still be people like that 20 years from now. Nothing replecates itself as effectively as dead stupid blind ignorance. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Bow-Out Date Contest... From: Ron Davies Date: 15 Jun 08 - 09:24 PM "...make up their own minds". Great idea. As long as they realize there is only one way to stop McCain from becoming president: supporting Obama. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Hillary's Bow-Out Date Contest... From: Riginslinger Date: 15 Jun 08 - 09:48 PM Oh well! |
