KFFC under threat potential pub closure

Subject: KFFC under threat potential pub closure
From: Banjiman
Date: 19 May 08 - 06:46 AM

Like many rural pubs in England, The Black Horse, Kirkby Fleetham (home of Kirkby Fleetham Folk Club) is under serious threat of closure due to high petrol prices, increase in duty on beer and cheap booze from super markets.

Talking to Phil, The Landlord he is currently trading at a loss and cannot sustain this indefinitely. His best night each month is the folk club night when we get between 30-70 people in from all over the north of England and beyond. During The Winter Warmer Weekend in February he did as much trade as he usually does in 6 weeks (we had 150 + around over the weekend).

Phil has assured me that the pub will still be open for the next club night on June 21st but will not give me any guarantees beyond that.

If you would like to help keep the club (and the pub) open please come on June 21st........if Phil and the brewery understand that people are bothered and are prepared to put bottoms on seats and beer down their throats there is a chance they will re-consider.

If this doesn't work we can at least have a fantastic party to say goodbye to the club.

If there is any interest (please let me know if you are going to come ASAP) I can extend the night to provide a whole day (and even Sunday as well) event with the legendary singaround and additional acts.

Excellent acts booked for June .....the legend that is John Conolly (wrote Fiddlers Green and Punch & Judy Man amongst many others) and the excellent Folk/ Blues of the up and coming Doghouse Roses.

as always, plenty of room for Campers/ Caravans, limited room for tents and if enough people want it I can arrange indoor camping in the Village Hall.

If you cannot attend, please at least send me a message of support letting me know if intend to come at some point and I will give this as evidence to Phil that the folk/acoustic community value the pub and intend to support it.

Please show your support.

Thanks

Paul

p.s. We had a fantastic night on Saturday.....Jeff Warner was in fine form, Kat Davidson & Dan Wash were a revelation (and will both undoubtedly go on to far bigger stages than we can provide) and Tinkerscuss were dark and interesting! About 40 in all told and an excellent vibe as always!

Subject: RE: KFFC under threat potential pub closure
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 19 May 08 - 06:52 AM

That's worrying news Paul - best of luck with it. Tom

Subject: RE: KFFC under threat potential pub closure
From: theleveller
Date: 19 May 08 - 08:19 AM

Paul, that's worrying news after all your hard work. We'll certainly try to get there if at all possible. See you at Ryedale.

Subject: RE: KFFC under threat potential pub closure
From: GUEST,Dave_
Date: 19 May 08 - 08:58 AM

Used to use the pub when I was based at Catterick, best of luck in keeping it alive

Subject: RE: KFFC under threat potential pub closure
From: Brother Crow
Date: 19 May 08 - 09:58 AM

All the best Paul - it's a great venue, and we hope it can be saved.

All at Brother Crow.

Subject: RE: KFFC under threat potential pub closure
From: GUEST,Betsy at Work
Date: 19 May 08 - 10:56 AM

Hi Paul, as Leveller said, you've worked hard to get the show on the road.
It's frightening that the types of pub where folkies are encouraged to gather, seem to be going in this direction.
(Not so, the [seemingly] successful eating-house type of pubs of the new millennium).
Your Landlord's tale sounds similar to Claire and Dave at Guisborough Globe and probably the Minerva at Hull.
This problem of pubs shutting is much more wide spread than anyone could have imagined.
Apart from the general economic down turn, I, and many others, are convinced that the British have shot themselves in the foot over the 100% smoking ban in pubs - it could have been handled so everyone was a winner.
When the government and zealots got rid of the smokers from pubs they got rid of their "bread and butter" customers.
It's a pity the over-educated idiots who spawned this piece of ill-thought-out social Engineering are not frequenting and supporting their local pubs.
The fact is, these idiots never sat in smoke-filled rooms, they simply never went to pubs.
Now they've stopped you smoking in pubs, soon, in conjunction with Greedy Breweries, they'll soon stop you drinking in them.

Good luck to you Paul, Wendy and the Landlord and I keep my fingers crossed for you all.

Subject: RE: KFFC under threat potential pub closure
From: Rasener
Date: 19 May 08 - 11:23 AM

Betsy
Paul said "closure due to high petrol prices, increase in duty on beer and cheap booze from super markets"

He didn't mention "Smoking", so why bring it into the equation.

Not all pubs are closing becuase of the smoking ban. I personally am so glad they banned smoking.

I wouldn't run Faldingworth Live if smoking was allowed. We get between 70 to 100 each time. In the 5 or 6 years I have been running (originally called Market rasen Folk Club) smoking was not allowed in the building. This was respect for all performers and for the audience of which the majority were non smokers.

There that got that off my chest. :-)

Now to get back to the question in hand.

From what you say Paul, it sounds very much like the Folk Club is not going to influence the gaffer's decision. I would think he needs a lot more business than that to keep heads above water.
Its very sad its happening and I hope that the gaffer decides to carry on.

I have always run in a Village Hall and the thing I like is that does as much for the community as anything, and I happen to think it offers more long term security. Do you not have a nice village hall there? The other thing is that grants are available for improving village halls and if rural enough there are grants for putting on the odd music event as well as getting equipment etc.

I have realised that where you operate from is not the critical thing, unless you can't find anything else. If (and hopefully it doesn't happen) he shuts the doors, be ready with another location. People will still go, as i have found out.
What is important, is that the music is good, the atmosphere is good and the peoplethat come do the rest.

I wish you good luck with whatever the outcome is.

Les

Subject: RE: KFFC under threat potential pub closure
From: Banjiman
Date: 19 May 08 - 12:21 PM

Tom, Leveller, Guest Dave, Brother Crow, Betsy.

Thank you for your words of support.

The Villan,

I think that Betsy is right, the smoking ban has undoubtedly contributed to the pubs plight.....it is certainly not the only factor but there are half a dozen of the old regulars who use the pub a lot less now than they did, due to not being able to smoke in the bar.

We use what was the dining room as the concert room, this would have been non-smoking on club nights anyway BUT there is a big difference between popping into the bar for a smoke and having to outside on a freezing cold night.

The Village Hall is an option (I have it provisionally booked for John Conolly on June 21st in case the pub shuts its doors earlier than currently being discussed, but for this night at least people would need to bring their own booze). We would have a few months in it at most though as it is due to close for a major extension and renovation project (we will be running some folky fundraisers for this!). It will be a fantastic resource when it is completed (full stage/lights/sound) but it would set back the club's development while this is being completed.

The Village Hall is also totally unsuitable as a venue for our weekenders.....the pub has 2 bars and the concert room making it perfect for multiple activities within a single event. There is also the question of cost, we get the pub room for free (indeed the Landlord subsidised the first couple of club nights so we could build up some funds) we have to pay for the village hall on an hourly rate.......this pushes you down the path of booking bigger names to attract enough people to cover costs and though I want to do this sometimes, I also want to present lesser known acts who deserve more attention....how else do new people get exposure?

I have no doubt we could sell out/ nearly sell out The Village Hall every month if we booked the sort of acts you do at Faldingworth (good luck to you, I'm not knocking this but it is not what we want to do every month). Reeth (about 15 miles from here) do a very similar thing and also do very well numbers wise.....but they can't afford to put on good quality but not well known acts. We played Snape Institute (a very large village Hall again about 15 miles from here)on Friday night and had over a hundred in which was great for Wendy but if some smaller venues/ clubs had never given her a chance......and what happens in other parts of the country where no one knows her?

I'm sure we will adapt to whatever venue we end up with (there are another couple of options) but I like gigs in pubs....they generally have more character and a warmth (and better beer!) than you don't get in village halls.

You say we will have little influence on decisions around the pub....I disagree, even if Phil goes there are apparently other interested (mad?)parties. They need to see that the folk club is a potential money spinner for them...hence the request for support on June 21st....it makes them more likely to take the pub on and more likely to keep the folk club on if they do take over the pub.

I also feel better for getting that off my chest, please excuse the rant!

Paul

Subject: RE: KFFC under threat potential pub closure
From: GUEST,Sapper still waiting the off at Derby
Date: 19 May 08 - 12:45 PM

Bugger!
That's the weekend I'm on a milk cow shift up in Scotland. Would love to go but the bank manager needs me to to the Sunday shift.

Subject: RE: KFFC under threat potential pub closure
From: stallion
Date: 19 May 08 - 12:58 PM

During the recession in 1991/2 my sisters pub was on it's knees and a few of the regulars and myself started a folk night which increased the takings by £1000.00 per week, sounds incredible but true, it brought the late "suicide" Bill Newton to folk, Anna Shannon was a founder and Jessie Hutchinson was a regular visitor and many more. I think your a tad far out in the sticks to bring a once a week do but all praise to you, Paul and Wendy, you certainly have contributed to the villages precious amenety, the pub. Crossed fingers and I will check if we can get up for the 21st.
Pete

Subject: RE: KFFC under threat potential pub closure
From: Rasener
Date: 19 May 08 - 02:05 PM

Paul
I wouldn't tolerate smoking and thats it. However evryone to their own.

We have a bar and we are trying to give the village some life and make the hall the focal point.

Any money made goes eventually to the Village Hall and we don't take any money ourselves, (not even the people running the bar), for what we do (well whats new :-). And for what it's worth, I don't even live in the village.

So the money that we make goes towards the upkeep of the village hall that would certainly fold otherwise.

So obviously there is a different slant on how we all choose to run our venues. I started because I wanted to put something into the area that they hadn't had before, and not becuase I was a performer.

Subject: RE: KFFC under threat potential pub closure
From: Rasener
Date: 19 May 08 - 02:18 PM

Ooops that last paragraph doesn't look the way I intended.

What I meant was that if you are a listener, as I am, your approach to running a venue may be a lot different than people who are musicians/singers who run a venue. Both work and you have to go with your own ideals.

Subject: RE: KFFC under threat potential pub closure
From: Banjiman
Date: 19 May 08 - 02:19 PM

Les,

Apologies, I've just re-read my post and it sounded like I was knocking what you do.....I certainly didn't intend to. We started KFFC for a number of reasons....to give local and newish acts somewhere to perform, to occasionally put on bigger acts that people asked for....and to help keep the local pub going, it was struggling even when we started....and to have fun!

I admire what you are doing for the local community.....Village Halls are just as important to small communities as pubs.

Our Village Hall does OK though as our school uses it for P.E. etc as well as lot's of other local groups during the day and many weekday evenings. We may end up using it for the club, but it will considerably change things....like killing the late night singarounds, we have stop the music in the hall by 11.30.

Apologies again.

Paul

Subject: RE: KFFC under threat potential pub closure
From: theleveller
Date: 19 May 08 - 02:52 PM

We don't have a pub in our village but we do have a vilage hall (just across the road form my house, actually) that we use for most of the village events and for private functions such as birthdays, weddings etc. Maybe you should come to some arrangement with your village hall committee over charges (or get on it, they always seem to want people). We actually have events to raise money for the village hall to pay for upkeep, the ents licence etc, and they are usually sell outs - bear in mind that there are only around 200 people in our village. We get barrels of beer in, which we can't sell but ask for a 'contribution' - everyone knows the score. When we have a private party we usually end up paying around £30 for the evening.

The only problem is that, being so close to the hall, we usually end up doping the catering at our house - shorlty after we moved in and before our kitchen was renovated, I cooked lasagne for 100 people.

What I'm saying is that, without a pub, the village hall can take on a whole new lease of life.

Subject: RE: KFFC under threat potential pub closure
From: Brother Crow
Date: 19 May 08 - 03:56 PM

I have a couple of friends in the pub trade....they were landlords of a pub tied to a brewery. It was a great "community" pub, with real ale...unfortunately, they made the mistake of being too successful, so the brewery tripled the rent for them as a reward...the pub closed, surprise surprise!

The same happened at a number of other pus in our area (we even played at a closing down party once at Tow Law, in similar circumstances)....it smacks of greed by breweries, squeezing every last drop out of the landlord...

On the smoking ban, well I'm afraid we could not play in smoking venues...simple as that. Andy is asthmatic, and when we've tried in the past, it took 2 or 3 days before he could sing again. The smoking ban has been a breath of fresh air for us (sic). Without it, I don't think there would be a Brother Crow...

KFFC is a great little club, I really hope that Paul can find some way for it to continue.

Graeme,
Brother Crow.

Subject: RE: KFFC under threat potential pub closure
From: Rasener
Date: 19 May 08 - 04:21 PM

The Leveller
>>we usually end up doping the catering<<

So everybody goes home on a high then. Cool man LOL

Graeme, you make exactly the point why smoking shouldn't be allowed. It's consideration to performers and audience.

No problems Paul - my only issue is the smoking.

Subject: RE: KFFC under threat potential pub closure
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 19 May 08 - 04:38 PM

Well I'm sorry to hear of a good venue in peril. No I don't think the smoking ban has made it happen either. Betsy's rant above reminds me of so many recent government knee jerk ill thought out laws, but you still can't blame the non smoking laws.
The overcharging and greedy breweries sounds a more plausible explanation.
However as far as I'm concerned it's definitely the price of beer, and the price of fuel, and even if pubs reduced their prices to supermarket levels, people still need to get there.


G

Subject: RE: KFFC under threat potential pub closure
From: Betsy
Date: 19 May 08 - 05:34 PM

Villain and Giok, I didn't propose smoking in Folk clubs - I offered it as a (part) explanation to the demise of the pub which relies on it's drink sales as opposed to those who have "converted" to food.
I certainly did not condone smoking in a folk club, I thought Banji put it more sensitively and I envisaged that people could retire to the bar where locals wear shitty working clothes , wellies / boots duff bar furniture and where men and women can retire to indulge in their evil vice having a fag.
As to whether Giok thinks "you still can't blame the non smoking laws" IS totally irrelevant. Both similar threads - Guisborough Globe and the Minerva at Hull CITED these laws as being part of the problem.
The point I was making in relation to Banji's and the other pubs ,was that on the other six days and night when the folk club is not there, the pub is now missing a bunch of LOCAL people (smokers)who might,just might, have kept Banji's landlord ticking over and avoided this thread altogether.
Giok this is the second time you have been unpleasant to me on these pages. I do not rant, I have, as does everyone else on this Site, have an opinion with which you don't need to agree but you should respect it. It is as simple as that so moderate your language.
As for Villains "we usually end up doping the catering
So everybody goes home on a high then. Cool man " if this means what I think it does, then you should be ashamed. Folk music gatherings in our very large area has never condoned the use of narcotics, however, it does negate the use of alcohol and beer and thereby may lie another problem which has led to the demise of the Pub.
You can't have your hash cake and eat it. What's the point in buying beer and putting money in the pub Landlord's coffers when you're all smashed on cake .

Subject: RE: KFFC under threat potential pub closure
From: Nick
Date: 19 May 08 - 06:02 PM

Find another pub - sad as it may be as it is a nice venue and the room is nice - but probably a little out of the way.

There will be a pub within a closish range that would like the trade I'm sure.

I had the same experience when we moved out of the pub in Farlington when Smiths canned all music. I found 3 suitable pubs within 5 miles who would have us and that was at a time when everyone was trying to turn pubs into restaurants. Now that that market is fairly saturated I think I could find more pubs that would have us as the regular weekly intake of 30+ drinkers is a good little earner in this day and age.

Subject: RE: KFFC under threat potential pub closure
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 19 May 08 - 06:07 PM

Sorry Betsy, I didn't mean it to be a personal attack, it just sounded like a rant to me, and there's no law that says you can't rant, and get things off your chest.
G

Subject: RE: KFFC under threat potential pub closure
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 19 May 08 - 07:05 PM

For what it's worth my observations across the land suggest a significant decline in pub trade mainly due to the smoking ban - with the beer prices against supermarket loss-leaders a close second. Many -most? - pubs were ghost towns through the winter, and perhaps double figures of folk clubs are in trouble as a result.

Warmer weather may grant a few months reprieve, as smokers are happy to sit outside, but many people have now broken the habit of pub-going and may never re-acquire it.

The ban doesn't affect club attendance directly, but it affects pub atmosphere and therefore club atmosphere. I know of many pubs who are now only opening at weekends, with major consequences for some folk clubs.

Tom

Subject: RE: KFFC under threat potential pub closure
From: Rasener
Date: 20 May 08 - 02:19 AM

Betsy
You didn't add the LOL to the end of the quote I made

>>So everybody goes home on a high then. Cool man LOL<<

LOL stands for laughing out loud (in case you wasn't aware Betsy). I think leveller meant "doing" not "doping". Well I hope Leveller meant that.

Incidentally Betsy, I am anti-drugs big time.

Subject: RE: KFFC under threat potential pub closure
From: Banjiman
Date: 20 May 08 - 03:20 AM

"Find another pub - sad as it may be as it is a nice venue and the room is nice - but probably a little out of the way."

Nick, it depends where you are coming from....... it's not out of the way for me (staggering distance!) or more importantly for anyone coming up or down the A1, which is only 1.5 miles away.

There is no doubt that the smoking ban has had an impact on the viability of traditional pubs.....there is no doubt that smoking has no place in a folk club/ concert "space".

Anyone else able to make the "farewell" party on June 21st? It is likely that we will have a singaround/ additional acts, hopefully in the garden on Saturday afternoon and I'm working on a barbecue early evening followed by the planned concert.

Paul

Subject: RE: KFFC under threat potential pub closure
From: Nick
Date: 20 May 08 - 03:40 AM

Paul

I don't think that there's any doubt that the music evenings work well but that's not the reason the pub is under threat. It's unlikely that a viable number of drinkers are going to swerve off the A1 on a regular enough basis to make it viable.

It would be sad to lose what you have built up so it's worth having a contingency plan and have a look round the area as to where else is feasible to play. You might find that there are other options that would welcome you and where you could maintain what you have. The difficult bit will be replacing the 'concert room' you have use of at Kirkby as they are normally utilised for food or similar.

When Sams curtailed our activities we had been making a significant difference to the economics of the local pub but the pub also had a large enough regular clientele on the other days of the week because of the fantastic landlord that was there at the time and the overall ambience of the place. We similarly had enjoyed a couple of weekends of music where Mick and the Hull/Beverley hordes had descended and we could have done many more.

When it stopped there was a huge temptation just to give up and stop because of the effort of starting again - getting to know a new landlord - encouraging people to come etc etc But it was worth it and we are now better supported than we used to be.

I'll try and come on the 21st, at the moment it's the only Saturday in June that we haven't a gig so unless that changes I'll bring my wife and come and have a sing and a listen.

Subject: RE: KFFC under threat potential pub closure
From: Banjiman
Date: 20 May 08 - 03:52 AM

Cheers Nick,

Yes I know we won't keep the pub open single handedly .....but you have to try! We might galvanise the village into some action and demonstrate that there is a potential business there for a new Landlord (the pub management company will keep the pub open if they can find someone to take over....it is the licensee who takes all the risk). I agree that the pub has to grow its' very local clientèle (not many of who attend the folk club either, except for well know acts).

I am exploring other options but at this stage I'm not sure they are viable....especially not for the weekend bashes. We would have to fundamentally change what we do....I need to talk to the other regulars and find out what would keep them coming.

Paul

p.s. I liked your CD by the way.

Subject: RE: KFFC under threat potential pub closure
From: theleveller
Date: 20 May 08 - 03:54 AM

Just a misprint, folks. People get high on the buzz of the party. However, a huge hash-growing factory was discovered in the next village. I understand the perpetrator is now residing at HM's pleasure. (Please bear in mind that my eldest son is a copper!)

Subject: RE: KFFC under threat potential pub closure
From: Rasener
Date: 20 May 08 - 03:58 AM

LOL

Subject: RE: KFFC under threat potential pub closure
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 20 May 08 - 04:22 AM

What all this would seem to prove, is that greed is not a good basis on which to run a business.
It would appear that the breweries, and other businesses too, work on the principal that when less punters visit, they raise the prices in order to maintain their profit margins. So the less punters the more the beer costs.
Have they never thought of trying to attract more customers instead?

G

Subject: RE: KFFC under threat potential pub closure
From: GUEST,Hugh Allen
Date: 20 May 08 - 05:19 AM

There is no doubt that the smoking ban has contributed to the closure of so many pubs.   The last statistics I heard put the closures in England at 14 per week. Pubs need to make money and a lot of their core customers were smokers.
This will be vigorously denied by the anti smoking brigade but the timing cannot be a coincidence.
I for one have given up visiting folk clubs because, although I can accept no smoking rules in concert venues, I refuse to stand outside in the cold in order to smoke. The only time I go into a pub now is in order to eat. Having done so, I leave and visit a fellow smoker's house fo a drink or invite friends to my house.
Anti smoking zealots have made a major contribution to the demise of the community pub. It is hypocrisy to try to blame the breweries etc.

Subject: RE: KFFC under threat potential pub closure
From: Tootler
Date: 20 May 08 - 09:06 AM

Paul, I am sorry that the Pub is under threat of closure. It is a good venue and you have put a lot of effort into getting the folk club off the ground. Last Saturday was my first visit and it was an excellent night which I thoroughly enjoyed.

I will try and come on the 21st June, though I cannot be certain at this stage.

As to the reasons, I suspect it is no one factor. The smoking ban may have contributed, but far more likely is a combination of recent tax increases, fuel price rises and the current economic climate. Such a combination will inevitably lead to pub closures. The smoking ban may be a contributory factor, but without the other factors, I suspect many pubs would otherwise survive.

[rant]
As to Guest Hugh Allen, you are the kind of person I would rather not have in a pub. You must realise that your habit not only affects your health (which is your own lookout) but also that of others, especially the bar staff who have to work in the smoky atmosphere. The atmosphere in pubs is so much more pleasant since the smoking ban.
[/rant]

That said I do think the rules about smoking shelters are just plain stupid. Like it or not, people are not going to just stop smoking because of the ban and it would make sense to permit pubs and restaurants to provide reasonable smoking shelters. To me the ban is more about consideration for other customers and for the staff.

Geoff

Subject: RE: KFFC under threat potential pub closure
From: Tootler
Date: 20 May 08 - 09:08 AM

Oh! and I forgot to say that I think the drink drive laws probably have as much to do with reduced trade in pubs as the smoking ban and they also make sense.

Geoff

Subject: RE: KFFC under threat potential pub closure
From: Nick
Date: 20 May 08 - 09:26 AM

Somewhere between 25 and 30 years ago when I worked for J Walter Thompson I went to a talk by a 'future predictor' - much like Faith Popcorn and similar who if you haven't heard of search for - and it's interesting in retrospect to see what they talked about.

They predicted that the world would move from a broadcast to a narrowcast world.

They predicted that people would become more insular and narrow and that business would need to cope with it

They predicted a world where people increasingly would cocoon themselves indoors and become more narrow

etc etc

I think they were very bright.

What they looked at were small trends that will come big trends. Pubs. Smoking. Clubs. Coffee bars. Being at home...

They are all part of a bigger trend that (sadly?) was predicted donkeys years ago. Interesting to see what future trend people are predicting for the future

Subject: RE: KFFC under threat potential pub closure
From: Banjiman
Date: 20 May 08 - 09:38 AM

KFFC.....online folk club maybe?

The chorus singing wouldn't be the same though!

Nick,

All of that makes a lot of sense to me.......but we certainly lose a lot if it is true.

Subject: RE: KFFC under threat potential pub closure
From: Betsy
Date: 20 May 08 - 02:14 PM

Thanks and Pax to Giok, Leveller and Villain.Incidentally I thought LOL meant "Lots of Love" easy mistake.
Let's hope this subject resolves itself to everyones satisfaction, after all the money men (the Breweries) are well represented in high places, but they ARE still flogging loads via the supermarkets.
The whole picture and nature of the British social scene is changing in a dramatic way .
I'm sure you must have taken an overseas visitor to a pub and they love the atmosphere which has taken centuries to evolve, until, the alchopop reared it's ugly head.

Subject: RE: KFFC under threat potential pub closure
From: Harmonium Hero
Date: 20 May 08 - 04:32 PM

Sad to hear of the threat to yet another folk club. I hadn't got around to it yet, but was hoping to pay you a visit. I don't seem to be doing anything that weekend, so may be able to get there.
Regarding the comments about the smoking ban: while it may have driven a few kamikazee smokers out, I don't believe that this alone would have put pubs out of business. I wholeheartedly endorse Tootler's 'rant'. For many years, the smoky atmosphere put a lot of people off going to pubs. It drove me out of music sessions. It also made my life as a singer very unpleasant. Pubs existed for centuries before that silly bugger Raleigh brought the dreadful weed back from his holidays in America. Maybe it needs a bit of time for people to drift back, but, as has been said, there are other contributary factors. I was going to mention the drink/driving laws, but Tootler got in before me. Drivers who would have had maybe two or three pints will now stick to one. Quite right, you may say, but it's no doubt a factor. And the price of drinks, like the price of everything else, is also a deterrant - backed up by the cheaper alternative of supermarket booze. And home entertainment. And I suspectr that the omnipresent big-screen sport may be driving some people out. Contrary to what some people think, not everyone wants this; I have been in pubs where there has been football on a huge screen, with NOBODY paying the slightest attention. Or, more often, walked into an empty room in a pub with a football match on the big screen - not an empty pub, just the empty room... Add to this the price of fuel; the pubs which have been taken over by money-greedy chains and tarted up to attract the 'Yoof' trade; and the anti-acoustic music PEL, and what have you got? Well, certainly not the pub we all know and love. Pubs have been closing for years, before the smoking ban. We can argue about this for ever - and no doubt will. Nick's comments a couple of posts back are right. Our society is changing. Mostly not for the better. Maybe folk clubs need to do some re-thinkig. Perhaps some other kind of venue will become the norm - village halls for instance, where, perhaps those who want to drink can bring their own supermarket booze, and perhaps tea/coffee could be provided. I daresay we could get used to it. We're supposed to be there for the music, aren't we?
John Kelly.

Subject: RE: KFFC under threat potential pub closure
From: Nick
Date: 20 May 08 - 07:38 PM

Our society constantly changes. Pubs shutting now is a result of social trends that started a long long time ago. (And those were affected by stuff before - first world war - 19th century licensing laws - pick your starting point).

Music will still exist a long time after these minor structural problems are sorted. It just affects us in the short term.

There is always another option (and usually several). And many that we haven't even thought of.

I'll give you an example. I play in a new band that would like a residency somewhere - regular money, a chance to get tight as a band, all that stuff. Where I live there are no obvious places. But somewhere out there will be someone who wants us - or someone who doesn't realise yet that he wants us but it might be a road to salvation that he or she hadn't considered. Life's a bit like that. You either accept the status quo or you don't. (And yes I know I play Sweet Caroline but it was only because I had to)

Subject: RE: KFFC under threat potential pub closure
From: Banjiman
Date: 21 May 08 - 03:26 AM

John,it would be fantastic to see you on the 21st. It is looking likely that we will have an afternoon of singarounds and additional short "guest" slots on that date, with a barbecue as well. Ideally (weather allowing) we'll do this in the pub garden and enjoy the distant view of the Dales.



I will be at Burneston FC tonight and will talk to "the locals" just to double check that people want to do this. If it gets the thumbs up I'll be looking for people who would like to do 20-30 min unpaid slots during the afternoon.

Paul

Subject: RE: KFFC under threat potential pub closure
From: theleveller
Date: 21 May 08 - 05:08 AM

Paul, that sounds like a great idea. It makes it even more attractive to drive the 70 miles for a whole afternoon and evening - especially if there's a chance to perform a song or two (we don't get out as much as we used to!).

Subject: RE: KFFC under threat potential pub closure
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 21 May 08 - 05:13 AM

Can I just say, as an ex smoker, I am not rabidly anti all things fumitorial. Although they do say that we ex smokers are the worst when it comes to dissing those who still indulge in the weed.
I will only say this, my life has improved tremendously since I stopped smoking, particularly my sense of smell, and of course along with that my sense of taste has improved too.
When smokers waft past me in the street and I can smell the smoke off their clothing, I wonder if I smelled like that to other people. I suppose I must have, but I was blind [anosmic?] to it.
So while I defend your right to smoke, I encourage you to give it up too.
Then when you're cured, go down the pub and have several pints, and a sing song :)

G

Subject: RE: KFFC under threat potential pub closure
From: Brother Crow
Date: 21 May 08 - 05:17 AM

We'd have loved to be there...it's a great folk club. We're playing at a wedding though, so can't make it.

All the best Paul...

Subject: RE: KFFC under threat potential pub closure
From: Harmonium Hero
Date: 21 May 08 - 09:47 AM

Paul: I can't promise anything, in case I get a booking - I need all I can get! - but if I am available, I'll definitely come and do a spot. How soon would you want a commitment? I'd want a tent space.
John Kelly.

Subject: RE: KFFC under threat potential pub closure
From: Banjiman
Date: 21 May 08 - 11:17 AM

John,

In enough time that we don't under or over buy for the barbie! About a week beforehand.......we understand the need for gigs! Come and impress the "crew" and you'll probably get one.

Tent space won't be a problem.

Thanks

Paul

Subject: RE: KFFC under threat potential pub closure
From: MoorleyMan
Date: 21 May 08 - 05:59 PM

Have only just returned from a week's break to find this shocking news.
I do hope it's not as bad as it sounds Paul, but whatever, it's a hell of a blow for you after all the fantastic work you've put in getting KFFC up and running - and thriving. And Phil your landlord is I'm sure doing his best - he's a fine fellow and if he can't make a go of the place then I bet no-one can.
Here's my small and insignificant voice of support anyway, for what it's worth.
It looks as though I'll not be able to make 21st June, as I believe I've a booking "darn sarth" (tbc), but hope it all goes well for you.
Where there's a will... I was taught - and although it doesn't always work it should do.
All the best with your endeavours Paul.

Subject: RE: KFFC under threat potential pub closure
From: GUEST,Leila...
Date: 21 May 08 - 06:26 PM

I hope all goes your way.. it would be a tradgedy for the KFFC to end.. I had such a lovely time at your winter warmer and was so hoping to return soon..

Good Luck!!

So sorry I cannot make the 21st to show my full support..

But lots of love n support is sent your way from me..

leila x

Subject: RE: KFFC under threat potential pub closure
From: GUEST,The Hut People
Date: 21 May 08 - 06:50 PM

Hi Paul,
So sorry to hear of the possible closure of the pub, its a smashing venue.We can't make the 21st we are gigging hope there is a silver lining somewhere.
Cheers
Gary and Sam

Subject: RE: KFFC under threat potential pub closure
From: Banjiman
Date: 22 May 08 - 07:14 AM

Thanks for all your support guys!

We are on for extending the Folk Club into Saturday afternoon .....starting about 1pm. If anyone would like a short performance slot, please just let me know (pm me). This will be interspersed with a singaround until the usual 8.15ish. Afternoon will be free and in the garden of the pub if the weather allows.

Normal (?), planned club night to follow with John Conolly and Doghouse Roses from 8.30pm in the concert room.....and if anyone has any energy left we will have the usual late night singaround following the acts in the bar.

We will also provide a barbie in the afternoon (I would think about 5.30) which will be provided by the club and therefore at cost rather than anyone making money out of. I would think something like £2-3 per person. If people could let me know if they would like to partake in this I can make sure we buy enough food!

Paul

Subject: RE: KFFC under threat potential pub closure
From: Banjiman
Date: 23 May 08 - 04:33 AM

Copy of email sent to the club's circulation list giving the latest situation.

Thank you all for the tremendous messages of support we have received over the last few days. It is really quite overwhelming.

I think we have had enough positive response to extend the planned club evening on June 21st into the Saturday afternoon. The plan is to kick off at around 1pm and have a singaround with a few short "sets" from some of the acts who have offered support. If you would like to do 15-30 mins, please let me know. If the weather is kind to us these events will take place in the pub garden with a barbie at around 5.30pm. The barbie will be provided by the folk club and will therefore be at more or less cost....I would think around £2-£3 per person.

This will roll seamlessly into the planned evening's entertainment with Doghouse Roses on stage at 8.30pm followed by John Conolly....if anyone has any energy left we will also have the usual late night singaround. I will finalise and circulate a list of who is playing the afternoon slots in about 10 days time. The evening concert will have the usual £5 entry fee though the afternoon is free....though we will be asking you to buy raffle tickets to bump up club funds (see below).

As for the future, we have provisionally booked the Village Hall in Kirkby Fleetham from June (in case of earlier than planned closure of the pub) onwards. We have used the hall for concerts before and it is a good venue. It poses one or two challenges....music is expected to finish by 11.30pm, so we need to think about the late night sings, there is also no bar....so if we do use the village hall we will suggest in the short term that people bring their own beverages, though we would look to provide a bar in the longer term. The venue is unsuitable for the BBB and WWW weekends we have planned in November & February......so if anyone has any bright ideas, please let me know. We will also have to pay upwards of £5 per hour for the village hall which will make finances slightly tighter (unless we can increase attendances, it comfortably seats 80) .

There is still a chance that someone will take over the pub....but talking to Phil yesterday it seems pretty clear that he will be going at the end of June.

Please support this event if you can (apologies to those who have already said that they can't, disentangling the circulation list would have taken me hours!), or future events if you can't be at this one. Let me know by about June 15th if you want to partake in the barbie so that we can buy enough food!

Thanks again.

Paul

Subject: RE: KFFC under threat potential pub closure
From: Banjiman
Date: 27 May 08 - 04:56 AM

We're getting a very good response to ythe June 21st afternoon. Plenty of acts wanting a short slot and plenty of people coming to support.....anyone else?

Paul

Subject: RE: KFFC under threat potential pub closure
From: Banjiman
Date: 31 May 08 - 04:22 AM

We've had a fantastic response from people wanting to play at the Farewell/ Save Our Pub party on the afternoon of June 21st (see list below). Really grateful for the support and a special thanks to those who are traveling a long way (Henry, Martin esp), many of these folks are 'Catters. Should be a grand do with John Conolly and the Doghouse Roses on in the evening as well. For other details see above.

These acts will be interspersed with a singaround, so plenty of opportunity for others to have a go.

Confirmed so far:

Pearson Clan
Martin Dent
Ian McKone
Tevor Lister
Pete & Jools Thompson
Blind Sum'at (Wendy Arrowsmith, Joolz Cavell, Paul Arrowsmith)
Richard Grainger
Karen & Calvin
Peter Taylor
Henry Clements
Phil Drane

and possibly:
Tim Leaning ?
John Kelly ?

Subject: RE: KFFC under threat potential pub closure
From: theleveller
Date: 31 May 08 - 11:18 AM

Great line-up, Paul. Really looking forward to it. Doesn't look like we'll be able to make York but see you on 21st (buy lots of sausages!).