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Does it matter what music is called?

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Don Firth 19 Jul 08 - 06:26 PM
Don Firth 19 Jul 08 - 06:24 PM
Phil Edwards 19 Jul 08 - 05:28 PM
goatfell 19 Jul 08 - 05:16 PM
Jim Carroll 19 Jul 08 - 05:08 PM
Nick 19 Jul 08 - 12:11 PM
Spleen Cringe 19 Jul 08 - 10:42 AM
Phil Edwards 19 Jul 08 - 04:15 AM
Jim Carroll 19 Jul 08 - 03:33 AM
Phil Edwards 19 Jul 08 - 03:01 AM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 18 Jul 08 - 11:34 PM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 18 Jul 08 - 11:33 PM
Don Firth 18 Jul 08 - 11:08 PM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 18 Jul 08 - 09:24 PM
Nick 18 Jul 08 - 09:14 PM
Nick 18 Jul 08 - 09:10 PM
Don Firth 18 Jul 08 - 09:07 PM
Don Firth 18 Jul 08 - 09:05 PM
Spleen Cringe 18 Jul 08 - 08:32 PM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 18 Jul 08 - 07:31 PM
Bill D 18 Jul 08 - 07:00 PM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 18 Jul 08 - 06:52 PM
Don Firth 18 Jul 08 - 06:04 PM
GUEST,Shimrod 18 Jul 08 - 05:56 PM
Phil Edwards 18 Jul 08 - 05:41 PM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 18 Jul 08 - 05:17 PM
Jim Carroll 18 Jul 08 - 05:11 PM
Phil Edwards 18 Jul 08 - 04:45 PM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 18 Jul 08 - 04:31 PM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 18 Jul 08 - 04:29 PM
Don Firth 18 Jul 08 - 04:15 PM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 18 Jul 08 - 04:06 PM
Don Firth 18 Jul 08 - 03:22 PM
Phil Edwards 18 Jul 08 - 01:35 PM
TheSnail 18 Jul 08 - 12:58 PM
Phil Edwards 18 Jul 08 - 12:31 PM
GUEST,Rich 18 Jul 08 - 11:37 AM
glueman 18 Jul 08 - 11:13 AM
Nick 18 Jul 08 - 10:56 AM
TheSnail 18 Jul 08 - 10:41 AM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 18 Jul 08 - 10:13 AM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 18 Jul 08 - 10:06 AM
dick greenhaus 18 Jul 08 - 09:26 AM
Phil Edwards 18 Jul 08 - 08:17 AM
Jim Carroll 18 Jul 08 - 04:23 AM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 17 Jul 08 - 02:00 PM
Jim Carroll 17 Jul 08 - 01:08 PM
Sue Allan 17 Jul 08 - 10:38 AM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 17 Jul 08 - 09:50 AM
Jim Carroll 17 Jul 08 - 02:59 AM
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Subject: RE: Does it matter what music is called?
From: Don Firth
Date: 19 Jul 08 - 06:26 PM

By the way, I just noticed. That was 400. (Big deal!)

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: Does it matter what music is called?
From: Don Firth
Date: 19 Jul 08 - 06:24 PM

And that's where I'm coming from. To me, if a song hasn't gone through that process, I cannot accept it as a "folk song." It may be an excellent song, and it may sound like a folk song, but if, so far, it is sung only by the person who wrote it, it simply does not qualify. It may eventually. But the person who says, "This is a folk song I just wrote" simply has no concept of what a folk song really is.

A folk song is like a well-worn bannister, lustrous with the polish of long usage by many hands.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: Does it matter what music is called?
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 19 Jul 08 - 05:28 PM

"Is it the songs themselves or the style that they are performed in"?
Neither; it's the process that the song has undergone once it is passed on from whoever made/wrote it.


Amen to that.


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Subject: RE: Does it matter what music is called?
From: goatfell
Date: 19 Jul 08 - 05:16 PM

music is music, and not matter what you do or say, you just can't please everyone.


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Subject: RE: Does it matter what music is called?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Jul 08 - 05:08 PM

Nick
"Is it the songs themselves or the style that they are performed in"?
Neither; it's the process that the song has undergone once it is passed on from whoever made/wrote it.
The songs have been passed on through time and distance - so much so that is virtually impossible to tell where they originated.
They have been adapted by those who took them up, quite often to fit the new circumstances.
A song say with a sailor as a main character turns up altered to say, a soldier, or a farm worker, or a miner.
At the height of the tradition styles probably differed from place to place, but as it died off singers tended to be remembering them rather than performing them and many of the stylistic elements disappeared.
It is debated whether the English tradition was ever ornamented, yet in Ireland, where much of the repertoire was brought in from Britain, many of the singers use a great deal of ornamentation.
English and Scots songs tend to be straightforward narratives (stories), while in Ireland the songs are more lyrical, ie. contain much more description and commentary which is probably superfluous to the main stories of the songs.
""Does that matter?" depends on your interest - it is to me, it may not be to you.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Does it matter what music is called?
From: Nick
Date: 19 Jul 08 - 12:11 PM

A question for you Jim so that I understand something that I don't. This is not a windup question I promise you.

Is it the songs themselves or the style that they are performed in?
Does that matter?

Is there are a hierarchy which goes (and this may not be it but

TOP Manner in which transmitted
NEXT DOWN The style of the song
NEXT DOWN The perceived genre of the performer
etc
etc

Does the 'genuineness' of the source singer matter?
Does the intention matter?
Does the sound of the song matter?

When I grew into music in the 60s I liked what I percieved was folk music and I now realise it's not what folk music was - and Don's post was enormously useful to me to understand some of the heritage of that. But it was the folk I came to and folk means something different still in 2008.

Interestingly there is no 'folk' category on Napster. Eliza Carthy is now a part of 'Americana' which I find enormously entertaining (can we have our tea back?)

Fairport, Incredible String Band, Judy Collins, The Byrds, John Martyn. Pentangle were all people I heard and liked. Each in their own way presented traditional folk music wrapped up in a parcel that I understood and liked. They sang a lot of folk songs but arranged enormously differently (Spencer the Rover - Lyke Wake Dirge - Pretty polly - etc etc)

It's much like blues. After an early introduction to Robert Johnson (which in it's raw form is quite hard to get into when you're young I'd suggest) I go in to blues via John Mayall, Paul Butterfield and BB King.

Or Beria, Xenakis, Stockhausen who made precious little sense to me until someone traced their heritage back to things that I understood and explained how they got to where they are/were.

The raw source material is quite hard to get in to - it makes more sense once you start with something that is nearer to what you hear on the radio and work backwards. At some point you get to a place that you are comfortable with. Mine stops the popular side of Walter Pardon who I know does lots for you (for heritage - genuineness - quality - whatever) but does precious little for me. Steve Gardham posted somewhere on here that when he found the Watersons it clicked and worked and that was him - and not even a path I would guess he was looking for (I may be wrong of course)

It's that beauty of serendipidity that takes you at some point to a home you love which is the beauty of music and life.


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Subject: RE: Does it matter what music is called?
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 19 Jul 08 - 10:42 AM

They're good. They're not folk. I shouldn't post when pissed...


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Subject: RE: Does it matter what music is called?
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 19 Jul 08 - 04:15 AM

Nigel - I'm sure they're good, but I don't see any reason to call them 'folk'. (Or rather, I think refusing to call acts like that 'folk' is justifiable & interesting, not least in the reactions it provokes.) As for folk clubs, after the MEN feature I doubt they could afford 'em...


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Subject: RE: Does it matter what music is called?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Jul 08 - 03:33 AM

Ron,
How the word 'folk' is used by a small group within a slightly larger, but still minuscule group of people involved in folk clubs, may have changed, but that doesn't mean that the definition has changed - language doesn't work like that, nor should it.
Now matter how many people talk about 'special rendition', torture will always be torture (TBTG).
I find these discussions interesting, stimulating, even vital, but in the end they are academic - no matter what a handful of us might argue on a thread on Mudcat, nothing will happen to the definition of 'folk' until somebody produces a new one, - i.e., researches the subject, documents it and gets it accepted. The existing definition meets all these requirements, and there is both a consensus and a large body of literature to back this up. Anything else (so far) is wishful thinking on the part of a small group of people with a personal stake in the subject.
Earlier you offered 2 definitions which I would be happy to consider should my opinion ever be sought.
1. Music originating among the common people of a nation or region and spread about or passed down orally, often with considerable variation.
2. Contemporary music in the style of traditional folk music.
I suggest that both of these are a million miles from an evening of Beatles songs at a folk club, or letting the record shop owner decide, or whatever is put on in folk clubs is folk.
I've argued for a long time that the '54 definition needs re-visiting, but it has to be based on what we have learned about the defined music since then, rather that a strange desire the part of people who wish, for some unfathomable reason, to identify their compositions with a music they neither like nor understand.
Guest Rich:
You made an important point some time ago which I intended to respond to, but got bogged down elsewhere.
You are, of course right; the question of literacy and folk music is a complicated one and is very much one of the aspects of the definition that needs expanding on.
Some of the most interesting (to me) work we did was with a Traveller who was illiterate, yet who produced and sold ballad sheets round the fairs of Southern Ireland in the 1940s.
Literacy and the oral tradition is not the black-and-white issue that I implied it was in an earlier posting - sorry.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Does it matter what music is called?
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 19 Jul 08 - 03:01 AM

Check the dictionary that I quoted earlier in this discussion. That fits for me.

"2. Contemporary music in the style of traditional folk music"

I guess you could argue that Joni Mitchell, Donovan or the String Band qualified as folk on that basis. But where does that leave contemporary music that bases itself on the style of Joni Mitchell, Donovan or the String Band? Do we accept that that can be called 'folk' too? If so, where does it stop - or is the definition going to go on expanding indefinitely?


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Subject: RE: Does it matter what music is called?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 18 Jul 08 - 11:34 PM

P.S. - Don, I truly hope I can sure your CD with my listeners. You are a part of the tradition and a voice that should be heard.


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Subject: RE: Does it matter what music is called?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 18 Jul 08 - 11:33 PM

Thanks Don. That was exactly the answer to my question.   What you have described is actually similar to the music that I became involved in - perhaps about 10 years or so later than you. Much of what you described is traditional folk music that comes from a British Tradition - either originally or traversing to the United States.   There is a unique "sound" to that body of work. As you note, you do not have a "regional" sound, but what you described is a typical American folk song background.   It is also typically a "white" urban background - and I am not saying that with any disparaging or racial undertones. What you describe is a typical background, that I believe most of the posters to this thread from our side of the pond, grew up in.

There is nothing wrong with that.   Two artists that you mentioned, artists like Gordon Bok and Ed McCurdy, wrote songs in a similar style.

However, there are "other" traditions at play. Cajun music is folk music tradition. African-American folk music is a huge body of work. Mexican-Americans have a strong folk song tradition. We cannot overlook Native American music either.   Each of these have a unique "sound".

I perfectly understand your point of not enjoying contemporary "folk" because it does sound "different" and feels foreign compared to what came before it. Yet there are many items that it shares in common with the makeup of communties of the past.

Natually, a song like "Last Night I Had the Strangest Dream" that Ed McCurdy wrote in the 1950's cannot be considered a "traditional folk song" in the definition of musicologists. Yet Ed McCurdy, the Weavers, Pete Seeger, Woody Guthrie are closely recognized as being part of the folk music community. I agree that there music is not traditional folk music, nor would any of them dare to call it that. Yet each one is recognized as performers of folk music - and I dare anyone to try to alter that status in the minds of their audience.

Richard Dyer-Bennett was a brillant scholar and collector, but he was really a cabaret performer who did not sing any style that you could find in field recordings. The Weavers arranged their "folk songs" to fit pop culture. Josh White did not sing in the same style as the original songs were set.

Even you Don use your own artistic vision to perform the songs as you see fit.

There is something unique happening in contemporary music, and I do not believe that anyone is trying to pass it off as "traditional". They are following in the footsteps of others, and creating an honest sound that is speaking to a new community.   A society that creates a Chuck Brodsky or a John Flynn or a Joe Jencks or an Anne Feeney is doing something right in carrying on a unique FOLK MUSIC tradition.   

It isn't about numbers, it is about style and substance.


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Subject: RE: Does it matter what music is called?
From: Don Firth
Date: 18 Jul 08 - 11:08 PM

Ron, I don't know what you mean by my "tradition." I was urban born into a middle class family in the early 1930s, grew up listening to all kinds of music (pop, classic, opera, country). In high school, I developed a taste for performing. I knew a lot of kids who were into music and drama, a few of whom went on to careers as singers and actors. In my first years in college, in 1952 or so, I met Walt Robertson, Sandy Paton, and a few others who were interested in folk music and I became interested myself, bought a guitar, and set about learning to play it. I learned songs from Walt and Sandy and from the few folk records that were available then, by singers such as Burl Ives, Susan Reed, Richard Dyer-Bennet, Cynthia Gooding, and from song collections such as Sandburgs American Songbag and Lomax's Folk Song U.S.A. Meeting Pete Seeger in 1954 and Richard Dyer-Bennet a couple of years later were great enthusiasm builders, and I began getting paid to sing in the late 1950s. I was lucky enough to be called on to do a television series on folk music, as I mentioned above. Through the rest of the 50s and well into the 1960s, I made a fairly decent living singing in coffeehouses, doing concerts, folk festivals, and so on. I've detailed all of this a number of times elsewhere.

As to my "sound," I don't think I have a regional sound. Since people are willing to pay to hear me sing, I guess I must be a halfway decent singer (bass-baritone), and I'm a somewhat more than competent guitarist. I probably sound similar to singers such as Ed McCurdy and Gordon Bok. I sing a wide variety of songs, English, Irish, Scottish, Welsh, and American songs, from Appalachian ballads to California mining songs to Pacific Northwest lumbering songs, to sea chanteys to—whatever happens to appeal to me. And in aid of doing the songs well, I try to learn as much about them—histories, backgrounds, the people who sang them, and why—as I can. I'm fairly good with accents and dialects whenever it seems appropriate, which is an aid in doing songs from different traditions and locales, and although some people here on Mudcat consider that sort of thing phony and reprehensible, my audiences don't seem to mind, and I do not try to make them think that I am anything but what I am.

So I'm a urban-born singer-guitarist who sings mostly (but not exclusively) traditional songs and ballads learned from song books and recordings, and I imagine I sound something like Gordon Bok on an off day.

I don't know if that helps or not.

Don Firth

P. S. I hope to have a CD of my own out in the near future. Working on it. In fact, I learned quite a bit from Melissa about doing a CD, including a few things not to do (not speaking artistically, but in a business sense).


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Subject: RE: Does it matter what music is called?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 18 Jul 08 - 09:24 PM

Don - no one is arguing over what is "traditional". I would certainly hope you can tell the difference between Sinatra, Townes Van Zandt and the rest.

You keep saying mentioning about the "sound" of what folk is to you, but I would love to hear some examples of YOUR tradition.


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Subject: RE: Does it matter what music is called?
From: Nick
Date: 18 Jul 08 - 09:14 PM

And I'd agree totally Don that that ain't folk music.


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Subject: RE: Does it matter what music is called?
From: Nick
Date: 18 Jul 08 - 09:10 PM

>>Sorry, Nick, but we tried. Many of us old geeks did the best we could.

Good for you for at least trying to do something about something you cared about - many people don't bother. But I'm sorry to report that I don't think you succeeded and that your chances of turning the clock back fifty years and getting your word out of common usage and back into it's 'proper' place are very small.

I went to a mini folk festival today (it said it on the pub window - "Folk Fest here") but I'm not sure that I heard ANY folk songs at all. I played along with some Irish, Northumbrian etc tunes. I heard country and western (both sorts of music). John Martyn. Joni Mitchell. Irish songs (Wild Rover of course). Some blues. A bit of bluegrass. Some pop songs (including the Kinks). Steve Tilston. Phil Ochs. But no folk music that I spotted though there may have been some in the other room.

If the 'folk' crowd have given up singing folk songs it's a long way back.


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Subject: RE: Does it matter what music is called?
From: Don Firth
Date: 18 Jul 08 - 09:07 PM

(Sigh). Of course not. It will never be clear enough.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: Does it matter what music is called?
From: Don Firth
Date: 18 Jul 08 - 09:05 PM

Ron, I can tell the difference between a pop song such as the ones Frank Sinatra and Tony Bennett recorded, and a grunge rock song sung by the late Kurt Cobain, or a blues as sung by Lightnin' Hopkins. I can tell the difference between an operatic aria and a Gregorian chant. I know the difference between a song written and sung by Michael Jackson and song by Cole Porter. What gives you the idea that I'm insufficiently perceptive to distinguish between a traditional song that has been around for a couple of centuries or a more recent mining song or fo'c'sle chantey and a song written by, say, Bill Stains or Townes Van Zandt?

I don't hear any arguments between knowledgeable people, such as symphony musicians, conductors, composers, and music professors when it comes to differentiating between various kinds of music. I don't think you'll hear any arguments between Daniel Barenboim, Simon Rattle, and James Levine about whether a piece of music is Baroque or late classical period.

Nor would they ask for a vote of the population as a whole. Because no matter how the vote came out, it wouldn't change the facts.

Between the records and CDs of folk music that I have on my shelves (many CDs quite recent), not to mention the songs I have learned and sung for years, and THIS (one of Melissa's songs~~click on the little arrow), I simply would not put the latter in the same category of song.

Pop? Country? Perhaps. But—it doesn't sound remotely "folk" to me. I'm not saying that it's "better" or "worse." But for any one of a number of reasons, it's one helluva stretch to say that it's a "folk song." I would not call it a folk song for the same reasons that I wouldn't call "I Did It My Way" or "I Left My Heart in San Francisco" folk songs.

Clear enough?

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: Does it matter what music is called?
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 18 Jul 08 - 08:32 PM

I don't want to be difficult, but I just got back from seeing the Winter Journey live. Excellent stuff, but nowhere near as good as the godlike genius of Dan Heywood who they supported.

It's not folk by any definition, particularly one wrought in 1954 (for fuck's sake!!!) but it's bloody good predominently acoustic live music, that possibly has a place in the world of "folk clubs" (whatever they are) and is prone to causing mass outbreaks of general pleasure.

Which is surely the whole point?

on some levels...

Much as I like traditional music.

at least it's not some FUCKWIT singing "Hotel California"...


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Subject: RE: Does it matter what music is called?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 18 Jul 08 - 07:31 PM

"It - does - not - feel - the same as it did, and those who do not care for all the 'new' forms should not have the WORD for what they like taken away and co-opted just because it is short & convenient."

I think what you are saying is that "it" does - not - feel - like - the - music - that - was - part - of - YOUR - tradition.

No one is saying you should care at all for the "new" form. I'm not even sure what folk song tradition you are caring about.

The words were co-opted from their German origin and the 1954 definition that was quoted is simply that - a definition that was made in 1954. Folk music has existed before that date and after that date.


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Subject: RE: Does it matter what music is called?
From: Bill D
Date: 18 Jul 08 - 07:00 PM

"Based on YOUR definition of what a folk song should sound like."


mercy, mercy...Ron, no matter how loosely you want to apply language, it is OBVIOUS that something has changed about the music! It - does - not - feel - the same as it did, and those who do not care for all the 'new' forms should not have the WORD for what they like taken away and co-opted just because it is short & convenient.


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Subject: RE: Does it matter what music is called?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 18 Jul 08 - 06:52 PM

"How did the definition change? If the category of music that (in your view) can reasonably be called 'folk' has a definition, what is it? "

Check the dictionary that I quoted earlier in this discussion. That fits for me.

"her songs don't sound even remotely like folk songs. "

Based on YOUR definition of what a folk song should sound like.


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Subject: RE: Does it matter what music is called?
From: Don Firth
Date: 18 Jul 08 - 06:04 PM

"With folk music you are dealing with an artform, history and literature. . . ."

Well, with music, there doesn't seem to be much disagreement between most people on what constitutes Renaissance music, or Baroque, or main-stream classical, or what constitutes a fugue, or a cantata, or an operatic aria, or an art song (e.g., Schubert lieder). I rarely hear anyone trying to argue that "Some Enchanted Evening" is hip-hop or grunge rock. I've never actually heard a rapper try to claim that what he or she does is "folk music," although they might be able to make a good case for that.

I don't know of any playwright these days who claims to write "Shakespeare plays." Or composers who claim to write "Baroque operas."

I'm just not sure why Melissa, the young woman who lives upstairs and who knows very little about folk music, has only the vaguest idea of who Pete Seeger and Joan Baez are, has no idea at all of who Francis James Child, Cecil J. Sharp, or John and Alan Lomax are, and who lists "Tom Waits, Dolly Parton, Elvis Costello, Gillian Welch, Bruce Springsteen, Joni Mitchell, Paul Simon, Emmylou Harris, Gram Parsons, Kris Kristofferson, and Everything but the Girl" as her musical influences, wants to call the songs she writes "folk songs."

Her songs are interesting and she has quite a nice singing voice. She doesn't play an instrument and is backed on her brand new CD by somebody 'layering" a drum-set (much too loud and obtrusive) and an acoustic guitar, with occasionally electric guitar, and the CD is Cool Edited complete with overdubs of her voice.

She is a very nice young woman, and she's working hard at her music. She aspires to professional success as a singer and as a songwriter, and she's a bit worried about the success of her CD. She commented that she has to sell 250 of them at $15.00 apiece to make back her investment, even before she starts to make any profit on it. I bought one from her in the spirit of "support your local musician." I felt bad for her when I heard that her CD release party two weeks ago was something of a bust.

Except for the acoustic guitar in the background (played, not by her, but someone else), her songs don't sound even remotely like folk songs. She'd be one helluva lot better off trying to sell herself and her songs as some other genre or something entirely unique than she would trying to sell her stuff as "folk songs."

The Pacific Northwest Folklore Society, dedicated to traditional folklore and with which I am associated, would not be particularly interested in what she does, but since both the Seattle Folklore Society and Victory Music are interested in singer-songwriters, I'm trying to see if I can hook her up with them.

But folk songs? Clearly not.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: Does it matter what music is called?
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 18 Jul 08 - 05:56 PM

If I ever meet 'Winter Journey' in Market Street there's a chance that I might spontaneously throw up on them!


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Subject: RE: Does it matter what music is called?
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 18 Jul 08 - 05:41 PM

How did the definition change? If the category of music that (in your view) can reasonably be called 'folk' has a definition, what is it?


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Subject: RE: Does it matter what music is called?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 18 Jul 08 - 05:17 PM

Jim, I'm not sure of what you are asking. Are you asking me how "folk music" has changed?


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Subject: RE: Does it matter what music is called?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Jul 08 - 05:11 PM

Ron,
If it changed - what did it change to?
I've shown you mine - now you show me yours
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Does it matter what music is called?
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 18 Jul 08 - 04:45 PM

I read a review in the local paper today which I think is relevant to this discussion.

[Quote]
Manchester duo The Winter Journey conjure up gorgeous tapestries of rustic country folk music.
[as opposed to urban country folk music or rustic city folk music, presumably - PR]

Like a merry meeting of Nick Drake, Belle & Sebastian and BBC's Springwatch programme, it's the sort of music which effortlessly evokes images of woodland retreat and summery splendour.
...
Make no mistake, The Winter Journey are definitely worlds apart from your typical Manchester acoustic folk act. As you'd expect from a band named after a short story by the celebrated French author Georges Perec, The Winter Journey are a group dripping with quaint romanticism, bookish sophistication and lots and lots of cool refinement. Think Stephen Fry were he to form an acoustic folk group, and you might be getting close.
...
[the album] sits up there with the best debuts by a local act this year – a bewitching journey through Seventies pastoral folk, but with a daring sonic palette which squeezes in influences from Elliot Smith to Gainsbourg to Krautrock. ... it's also an album oozing a warm-blanket intimacy. – Each of the eleven songs strives for a pure, old-world innocence and romance, and firmly intent on keeping those values safe from the big, bad avaricious world we live in.

"There definitely is a dusty vinyl quality to the album," explains Anthony. "It's the sort of record which tries to ignore the modern world and popular culture. It's almost from another age, and that reflects our retro influences."
[endquote]

(I do like the idea that it's harking back to a lost world... where music was on vinyl! Some of mine still is, I'll have you youngsters know.)

I've listened to some of their stuff on their Myspace page; it's pleasant enough in a close-miked, mostly-acoustic, slightly creepy way, like Nico recording demos with James Yorkston.

What it's not, of course - and never claims to be - is traditional music in any way, shape or form. It's music that (supposedly) sounds like something called "Seventies pastoral folk": it gets the 'folk' label because it sounds a bit like Vashti Bunyan, in other words. This is daft, really - it sounds a bit like a lot of people, not least the Velvet Underground. And then look what happens - it's 'folk' but it's also a bit like Serge Gainsbourg and a bit like Krautrock. So you go from

1) artists called 'folk' because they do folk material
to
2) artists called 'folk' because they do their own material in a similar style to group 1)
to
3) artists called 'folk' because they do their own material in a style that's a bit similar to group 2) only different ('worlds apart', even)

And repeat - give it a couple of years and The Winter Journey may be a touchstone of what contemporary folk sounds like - with new 'folk' acts coming through that sound a bit like them, only different.


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Subject: RE: Does it matter what music is called?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 18 Jul 08 - 04:31 PM

"If 6,000,000,000 people all agreed that the world is flat, that still wouldn't make it flat."

Actually, the definition of "flat" would probably be going through a change!


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Subject: RE: Does it matter what music is called?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 18 Jul 08 - 04:29 PM

No, it is not that same type of basic concept.

With the world being flat, you are dealing with a commonly understood definition of what is round and what is flat. You are also dealing with scientific principles that are understood by most.

With folk music you are dealing with an artform, history and literature - all of which are open to interpretation that can be different based on individual perspective.


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Subject: RE: Does it matter what music is called?
From: Don Firth
Date: 18 Jul 08 - 04:15 PM

If 6,000,000,000 people all agreed that the world is flat, that still wouldn't make it flat.

That's kind of a basic concept.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: Does it matter what music is called?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 18 Jul 08 - 04:06 PM

"But the general public, not used to the fine distinctions that ethnomusicologists and folklorists make, assumed that they were folk songs due to the style in which they were sung and by the generic term they were used to hearing for these professional entertainers and songwriters rather than the pedigrees of the songs themselves."

BINGO!!! As usage became accepted, the definition changed - just the way the term "folk music" was first brought into usage from the German words.

Most people that are looking to enjoy will not bother checking the pedigree as long as the dog fetches the slippers and brings comfort.


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Subject: RE: Does it matter what music is called?
From: Don Firth
Date: 18 Jul 08 - 03:22 PM

"You can't blame the youth of today for the sins of the fathers/mothers/grandparents etc because it is our/your fault isn't it?"

Well, Nick, not exactly. You see, it works like this:

In the late 1950s, a trio of college boys recorded a mountain murder song they had probably learned from a, then, "obscurity label" recording (Elektra) of songs sung by a folk song collector named Frank Warner (scroll down a couple). It became a hit song. Got a lot of play on the radio (and opened a can of worms). This commercial success with a folk song inspired repetition. Within a couple of years, there were "folk" groups popping up like mushrooms. I don't need to give you a list of such groups, as I'm sure you can figure that out yourself.

There was a major problem with the songs that these people were recording. Record companies and radio stations are set up to pay royalties to the composers and/or music publishers of the songs they play on the radio. "Okay," says the radio station manager, "who do we send the royalty check to?"

"Nobody. It's a folk song. It's public domain."

There was all this potential ASCAP and BMI money floating around, and nobody to claim it.

"But— but— but we have all this money that we've got to pay somebody!"

"Oh? Oh! Well, okay—um—I guess I wrote it. . . ."

As a result of this, suddenly there were some nineteen different people at one time claiming to hold a copyright on "Darling Corey." Pick up a paperback songbook of folk songs and ballads published in the early to mid-1960s, and you'll note that there is a copyright notice at the bottom of the page for every song in it. From "Greensleeves" (no kidding!) to "Haul Away, Joe," to fourteen variations on "Turtledove," to pick a song, any song.

Since there was money—and lots of it—to be made, "folk" groups like The Brothers Four and the New Christy Minstrels began recording songs that were written for them—songs that sounded more-or-less like the folk songs they had already recorded. I knew a guy, Terry Wadsworth, who wrote several songs that were recorded by the New Christy Minstrels, one of which, as I recall, was "Don't Cry Suzanne", and since the composers of these new "folk songs," like Terry, registered a copyright, there was no danger of lawsuits over who really wrote the songs, as there had been over such songs as "Down in the Valley." So as the early 1960s progressed, these "folk" groups recorded more recently composed songs and fewer traditional songs. But they called them all "folk songs."

An interesting application of Gresham's Law.

Since Terry sang with a "folk" group (NC Minstrels) for a brief period of time, people assumed that he was a "folk singer" and the songs he wrote were "folk songs." This, despite the fact that Terry was a professional performer and songwriter, and prior to his stint with the Minstrels, he had written several do-wop-type songs for a soft-rock group called "The Fleetwoods" (no relation to Fleetwood Mac).

In the early to mid-1960s, many of the groups extant, and some individual singers (e.g. Jimmy Rodgers of "Honeycomb" fame), sang a mixture of traditional songs and songs that were written "in the folk vein," often specifically for those groups or individuals. In the public mind, all of these songs were lumped together as "folk songs." Including such songs as "They Call the Wind Mariah" and "Try to Remember," from Broadway musicals.

Then you had singers who were generally associated with folk music, such as Tom Paxton, Phil Ochs, Kris Kristofferson, Bob Dylan, et al, writing songs and singing them—to the accompaniment of an acoustic guitar. What more does a song need for the general public to consider it, even if newly written, to be a folk song? I do not recall that any of these singers referring to the songs they wrote as "folk songs." I think they knew better. But the general public, not used to the fine distinctions that ethnomusicologists and folklorists make, assumed that they were folk songs due to the style in which they were sung and by the generic term they were used to hearing for these professional entertainers and songwriters rather than the pedigrees of the songs themselves.

When performing, I always gave program notes on the backgrounds of the songs I sang ("I knew he was a folk singer because he spent ten minutes introducing a three minute song."), and whenever I sang a song that was not a folk song, such as a Yeats poem set to music, I told my audiences what it was. I also had a television series on folk music called "Ballads and Books" on my local educational channel, singing songs and ballads and talking about their backgrounds and travels.

I did the best I could, Nick, as many others did. But when the music industry itself gats involved and there is lots of money floating around just for the grabbing, provided the waters are sufficiently muddied regarding what constitutes a folk song and what does not, it gets a bit like King Canute trying to order the tides to recede.

It's not that some of these newly written songs might not eventually become folk songs. But to proclaim them to be folk songs when the ink is not even dry?

Sorry, Nick, but we tried. Many of us old geeks did the best we could.

Don Firth

P. S. By the way, one of the biggest jokes in the mockumentary movie, "A Mighty Wind," was that, of all the songs sung by these alleged folk groups in the movie, there was not one single genuine folk song in the entire movie. All of the songs were written for the movie itself.

Of course, there are those who might want to argue that point. . . .


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Subject: RE: Does it matter what music is called?
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 18 Jul 08 - 01:35 PM

I hadsaw that John Kelly in the backfront of our folk club once. He did all that old folkie stuff with the twiddly bits an' all. Don't know if he does any Beatles though.


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Subject: RE: Does it matter what music is called?
From: TheSnail
Date: 18 Jul 08 - 12:58 PM

No wonder all those professional trad folkies are complaining about not being able to make a living if Lewes is the only town booking them.


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Subject: RE: Does it matter what music is called?
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 18 Jul 08 - 12:31 PM

Perhaps Lewes is a foreign country; we do things differently here.

Lewes does have a bit of a name for doing things differently - particularly in the first week of November.

Seriously, it certainly sounds as if the scene there is in good health. I wonder if it's a local achievement or a Sussex thing (although I somehow doubt that Brighton is humming with Eng. Trad.) Or maybe the whole of the rest of England is doing great and Manchester's the odd one out - in which case I blame that Mike Harding...


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Subject: RE: Does it matter what music is called?
From: GUEST,Rich
Date: 18 Jul 08 - 11:37 AM

As much as I didn't want to enter this debate, something odd just struck me. This is just a question, so please don't shoot me.

Jim C, you refer to (a long way up the post, I know, apologies):

"...The manner of their transmission and because those who made and transmitted them were almost certainly illiterate"

regarding traditional folk songs, which is similar to a number of comments in similar threads recently about passing down orally, and songs not having a single (unknown) author. These just seem to be very strong statements with little to support them. At least with reference to ballads there seems to be evidence to the contrary, for example the Bodleian Library in Oxford holds:

"over 30,000 ballads in several major collections. The original printed materials range from the 16th- to the 20th-Century."

Given that thousands of these ballads were written down and passed on via a written medium from the 1500's onwards, suggests that (at least some of) the performers of these songs were not illiterate. In addition, this was, during the time, a commercial venture, as they were sold (although the performance of them may not have been). Indeed, some people may have learned the songs just from listening, but the number and longevity of this medium suggests that lots of people were using the written form.

So I suppose the question is just are we so sure about the statements we make regarding the nature and transmission of music, the further we move back. The 20th century may be one thing, but how confident can we be about the methods 2, 3, 4 hundred years ago?

This is just a question, not a criticism, because I am interested (in the history I suppose than the definitions).

I'm sorry if this has been asked before, it's just something I have been thinking about. The following is a summary from the website regarding the project of bringing them together (again apologies if this has all been discussed before). Also, look at the first five words, interesting stuff:

"Broadside ballads were popular songs, sold for a penny or half-penny in the streets of towns and villages around Britain between the sixteenth and early twentieth centuries. These songs were performed in taverns, homes, or fairs -- wherever a group of people gathered to discuss the day's events or to tell tales of heroes and villains. As one of the cheapest forms of print available, the broadside ballads are also an important source material for the history of printing and literacy. Lavishly illustrated with woodcuts, they provide a visual treat for the reader and offer a source for the study of popular art in Britain. held in collections at the Bodleian Library, University of Oxford."


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Subject: RE: Does it matter what music is called?
From: glueman
Date: 18 Jul 08 - 11:13 AM

Bullseye, Nick.


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Subject: RE: Does it matter what music is called?
From: Nick
Date: 18 Jul 08 - 10:56 AM

Nothing can be done about this. It's an impasse. The last 9 days of this thread (like the previous 54+ years) have changed nothing and can't.

You need to find the person who let the word 'folk' get away. It's probably a long time pre-1954. Once you find who it was then you can start to unravel it and get it back.

It was damaged and confused when I came to it (I'm 54) so it must be you 70+ year old people who must have messed it up or the 90+ lot or... - so who is going to take the responsiblity?

You are the people who would like it back but also the people who let it get away and I don't understand how you can have it both ways. In a lot of these discussions you are also the people who are not involved in 'it' any more as 'it' isn't what 'it' was and you have no control over 'it' anymore (whatever 'it' is or was).

Surely it must be YOUR responsibility rather than ours as - umless you are into EST (Werner Erhard bless his soul) - responsibilities tend to go up generations not down.

You can't blame the youth of today for the sins of the fathers/mothers/grandparents etc because it is our/your fault isn't it?


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Subject: RE: Does it matter what music is called?
From: TheSnail
Date: 18 Jul 08 - 10:41 AM

I had a very enjoyable evening at my The Royal Oak Folk Club last night. One chap did a song from The Band and I think there may have been a couple of music hall songs. Apart from that, I heard a great deal of traditional music and song, mostly English and a little Irish and one or two written-in-the tradition songs. Not a Beatles song to be heard.

This evening I'm going an informal singaround which, judging from the people I anticipate seeing there will be largely Scottish and English traditional.

Tomorrow night, it's the Lewes Arms Folk Club where we have guests Mick West and Frank McLaughlin. More Scottish traditional. I expect the floor spots will be mainly English traditional.

Perhaps Lewes is a foreign country; we do things differently here.


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Subject: RE: Does it matter what music is called?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 18 Jul 08 - 10:13 AM

"I don't know if anyone has looked recently, but in most stores there is no bin marked Folk."

I guess it depends on where you shop. Barnes & Noble and Borders each have extensive folk bins that carry a variety of styles. I even found a "folk" section in Target. There few remaining Mom & Pop stores in our area also carry a folk bin, but they are small - and dusty.

I will admit, I have noticed a trend to lump "folk" with country music (another term you cannot accurately describe anymore). XM has their folk channel lumped in with country, and Sirius did as well - before they dropped it.   Their traditional offerings are few. I do hear some Dock Boggs and Bascom Lamar Lunsford on occasion, and a bit more Irish and Brit folk, but largely they play contemporary music.

Of course, not everything is evident. Maps help us get to where we want to go, but sometimes the journey and the search becomes more rewarding than having it handed to us.


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Subject: RE: Does it matter what music is called?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 18 Jul 08 - 10:06 AM

"If somebody asked you "what is 'folk'", where would you direct them?
To record shelves which would range from Seth Lakeman to Cecilia Costello? To a club which could include anything from the occasional folk song mixed in with music hall, Victorian Parlour ballads, early 20th century pop songs... et al., to the evening of Beatles songs put on by a Yorkshire folk club not so long ago?"

THAT is a complicated question, and I daresay that it is one that has ALWAYS been difficult to answer.   It would be like someone asking me where to find the best pizza. I could not simply answer - go over the George Washington Bridge and it is in New York City. The individual would be lost trying to find the building among the thousands of streets and restaurants in the city. They could sample each one they find until they decide for themselves, which might ultimately be the best solution, or I can give additional directions and explanations until they find the pizzaria that I enjoy the most.

As we've all agreed upon, there are numerous folk music traditions around the globe. I also think we are in agreement (or close to it) on what a "traditional" song is. The part that gets complicated, and where there are numerous opinions, is what "tradition" the more contemporary songs play. Here in the United States there is a strong "folk tradition" that can be traced to the 1940's folk revival and the emergence of songs from the political left, which influenced a songwriter tradition during the 1960's folk revival which in turn is influencing a generations of contemporary songwriters. Granted,this is NOT traditional music - but I argue that it comes from a community that has been "settled" in modern times under modern technology and circumstances. The roots can be traced. I also feel that it meets the criteria AND more importantly, the spirit of that infamous 1954 resolution. Granted, there are many people that disagee with me about that - and I accept that.

Jim, there was one section of your recent post that concerns me. I don't think you are giving yourself enough credit!! -

"My dream, along with others I worked with, was not only to popularise the music I love and feel is a vital part of our culture, but to use the musical and poetic forms to create new songs, which may or may not become folk songs, but which reflected the life and experiences of the people I lived and worked with.

I am now further away from that dream than I have ever been - nobody's fault - we all managed to drop the ball somewhere along the way."

First, if you "popularise" the music, the danger of commercialism creeps in - and I feel it is unavoidable. Yet, you say that you wish people to "use the musical and poetic forms to create new songs" - well, isn't that what is happening? It may be a form that differs from the traditions you study and cherish, but the musical and poetic forms are a tradition unto themself. Here in the United States, we can trace a lot of form development coming out of the Greenwich Village "Fast Folk" music scene or the Texas music scene - both of which grew out of the traditional music revival of earlier times.

Please do not think that you "dropped the ball". We owe you and others whose work has preserved, educated and created a body of work that will be studied for many generations to come.

It is a vital part of your culture, as our folk traditions are a vital part of ours. The problem that I see - you cannot force culture down the throats of the masses. Everyone on Mudcat who has an interest in traditional music came to this for specific reasons that related to our needs. We cannot expect the needs that we had are the same for others.

The well has been dug and the water tapped. When people are thirsty, they will drink from it.


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Subject: RE: Does it matter what music is called?
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 18 Jul 08 - 09:26 AM

I don't know if anyone has looked recently, but in most stores there is no bin marked Folk.


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Subject: RE: Does it matter what music is called?
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 18 Jul 08 - 08:17 AM

To record shelves which would range from Seth Lakeman to Cecilia Costello? To a club which could include anything from the occasional folk song mixed in with music hall, Victorian Parlour ballads, early 20th century pop songs... et al., to the evening of Beatles songs put on by a Yorkshire folk club not so long ago?

I had a very enjoyable evening at my local folk club last night - 17 acts, more than one of whom were good enough to play a much bigger venue. But I don't think I heard a note of British (or Irish) traditional music.

We actually had our own Beatles night in 2006. (I did "Here there and everywhere" and "For no one" - the latter in 3:4 and with an abbreviated version of the French horn solo played on a G whistle.) We've also had two Dylan nights ("Hard Rain" and "Visions of Johanna") and a 'Canadian' night ("Don't let it bring you down").

One of these days I'm hoping we have a 'traditional' night.


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Subject: RE: Does it matter what music is called?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Jul 08 - 04:23 AM

Ron
"mythical CD under "folk"
Not so mythical - 'Put a Bit of Powder on it Father' contains much material which neither I nor Walter would consider folk.
I have no doubt that if it ended up in the shops it would land on the shelf marked folk because of the singer's reputation.
On the other hand, recently I posted a review of an Eliza Carthy CD recently which I took from The Irish Times; it was listed under 'Rock music'.
Are we really satisfied to allow those not directly involved in the music to define it on our behalf; the Rupert Murdochs and Richard Bransons of this world, whose only musical interest and objective is that of the cash-till?
When Pat and I used to scour the second-hand bookshops of England to build up our library; we invariably ended up searching the 'Childrens' section' for 'folktales'; and I can't count the times we found books on 'folklore' on the shelves marked 'religions' (though I am always amused that our atheist local bookseller places all religious books on the 'folklore shelf').
People have fought hard over the years to gain recognition for our music; the battle has been partly won here in Ireland; I don't believe we have made any headway at all in the UK. (should explain - born and bred in Britain - moved to Ireland 10 years ago).
Here I can turn television or radio on 7 days a week and almost be guaranteed to find well played traditional music, programmes discussing the subject or highlighting singers like Joe Heaney, Margaret Barry, Luke Kelly, Seamus Ennis. Pat and I have just finished giving interviews and supplying recordings for 3 programmes due to go out on national radio on the Travellers we recorded in London; and we are in the process of applying for an Arts Council grant for an autobiography of one of those Travellers, which we will probably get.
All this is a recent phenomenon brought about by a handful of people who know what the music is and who fought for its recognition.
Thirty or forty years ago, along with a flourishing club scene in the places I have lived; (Liverpool, Manchester and London), I was able to listen to A L Lloyd's 'Folk Music Virtuoso' and 'The Lament' and 'his 13 part 'Songs of the People'. MacColl's 'Song Carriers' is still the finest analysis of traditional song forty years on.
It seems to me we have rolled backwards rather than moved forwards. The UK hasn't even got a comprehensive folk music sound archive.
I am convinced that much of this is down to the confusion which surrounds the word 'folk'.
If somebody asked you "what is 'folk'", where would you direct them?
To record shelves which would range from Seth Lakeman to Cecilia Costello? To a club which could include anything from the occasional folk song mixed in with music hall, Victorian Parlour ballads, early 20th century pop songs... et al., to the evening of Beatles songs put on by a Yorkshire folk club not so long ago?
There are, of course, clubs which specialise in folk songs, but I believe they are few and getting fewer.
My dream, along with others I worked with, was not only to popularise the music I love and feel is a vital part of our culture, but to use the musical and poetic forms to create new songs, which may or may not become folk songs, but which reflected the life and experiences of the people I lived and worked with.
I am now further away from that dream than I have ever been - nobody's fault - we all managed to drop the ball somewhere along the way.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Does it matter what music is called?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 17 Jul 08 - 02:00 PM

Hi Jim,

Wonderful post! I enjoy the insight that you share. That is an amazing story about Martin Howley and it makes me wonder how many other songs of the type were lost, and also thankful that collectors saved such cherished songs.

However, I don't think that my original question was quite clear. I understand completely about the interest in the traditional songs on both yours and Walter Pardon's part - but my question is more hypothetical and trying to get to some sort of "common ground" about the issue of catagorizing.

Again, I understand and agree with the definition and conditions that you apply to traditional music. Just for the sake of discussion - IF anyone were to compile a CD of only the Music Hall songs as performed by Walter Pardon - would it be more appropriate to place such a CD in a bin marked "folk" or would a store owner place it under "popular" or perhaps "Musicals"(which in our country incorporates film and forms of musical theater).

The point I am trying to make is that someone interested in the repetoire of Walter Pardon might be more inclined to check for such a mythical CD under "folk" as opposed to another catagory.


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Subject: RE: Does it matter what music is called?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Jul 08 - 01:08 PM

Ron,
"Would you place the CD in any catagory other than "folk"?"
That's what these threads are about really.
Personally, I wouldn't issue them - not that I have anything against them, but they are not my field; I simply don't have the knowledge to comment on them or to judge their importance. I certainly don't categorise them as folk, but this doesn't mean they have no entertainment value, nor are of interest.
I value them as an important part of our work with singers and have never refused them or attempted to avoid recording them. Walter's repertoire of music hall material was particularly interesting in that they were early pieces, many of which he had learned from a neighbour, Harry Sexton. Walter had a phenomenal memory and absorbed many of his songs without consciously setting out to learn them. He took great pride in his traditional repertoire and often commented that he didn't understand why people insisted on asking for "that other stuff".
Blind Traveller woman, Mary Delaney, gave us around 100 traditional songs and knew at least another 100 which we never got round to recording. She could have doubled that number again with country and western and Irish pop songs which she refused point-blank to sing for us. She told us "they are not the songs you want" and said "they have the old songs destroyed".
When we asked her why she learned them she said they were the ones "the lads" (the other Travellers) asked for in the pub.
Like Walter, Mary had a phenomenal memory and could retain a song after only one hearing.
I believe that much of the confusion that seems to exist around the question of definition stems from the fact that we have very little recorded information on what source singers thought about their songs. It was the main thing that motivated Pat and I to embark on collecting in the first place.
The only concentrated work on this appears to have been done in the US with singers such as Sarah Cleveland, though I have never come across a published commentary on that work.
Jim Carroll
PS I don't know if you know the story our collector friend, the late Tom Munnelly told of meeting elderly singer, Martin Howley, who had a repertoire of quite rare and important songs. During the first recording session Martin insisted that he sang The Old Armchair.
Tom's time was limited and he kept putting Martin off until he finally insisted, and began to sing:
"Knight William was sitting on his old armchair; Lady Margaret was sitting on his knee" - a ballad that dates back to the early 17th century; the only version ever to have been found in Ireland.


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Subject: RE: Does it matter what music is called?
From: Sue Allan
Date: 17 Jul 08 - 10:38 AM

Jim - can I ask a favour? Would you mind PM-ing me too with that article about Walter Pardon? You mentioned in once before in another thread and I tried to hunt for it via my university's access to journals, but no luck. I'd be really grateful. Many thanks in advance.

Sue


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Subject: RE: Does it matter what music is called?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 17 Jul 08 - 09:50 AM

Jim,

Thank you so much for the fascinating article on Walter Pardon, and also for clearing up my error about the recording. It is the research and collecting from people like yourself that make this genre so intriguing and I am honored to be able to learn something new each day.

The question I asked previously was more of a rhetorical question. A number of people in this thread have commented that they have issues with the definition of "folk music" in that they wish to walk into a record store and see a "folk" section and know what they are getting. For that reason, they consider contemporary singer-songwriters unfit for the term "folk music".

My question is - for someone like Walter Pardon who clearly understood the distinction between true traditional music, Music Hall and popular music. While I understand that the recordings made of his performances are primarily traditional songs - supposing someone were to issue a CD of only his performances of popular or Music Hall songs.   Would you place the CD in any catagory other than "folk"?   Granted the songs contained might not be defined as "folk", but would anyone expect to find them anywhere else?

It may seem like a fine, and perhaps silly point, but I think it comes back to what, and more importantly - who is defining "folk".


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Subject: RE: Does it matter what music is called?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Jul 08 - 02:59 AM

Sorry,
Should have said
Mike's non-folk recordings were issued....
Jim Carroll


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Mudcat time: 22 May 1:29 PM EDT

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