BS: Glasgow earthquake!

Subject: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: akenaton
Date: 25 Jul 08 - 03:38 AM

Another chapter in the sad tale of "Tony Blair's Legacy" unfolds as predicted on Mudcat.

Scottish Nationalists have taken one of the "safest" Labour seats in the country.
Glasgow East a deprived area, with huge numbers of long term unemployed, health issues on a massive scale, life expectancy of 62 and wholesale dependency on benefits, has turned against the Labour Party for the first time in my memory.

The change has been described as a political earthquake which has moved off the Richter Scale.

But....for the more politically sensitive among us, the tremors were felt before the start of the Iraq War, when people first began to realise what the Labour Party had become.
The shocks became stronger as Blair was forced to leave office and electorate's disgust with the whole corrupt and hypocritical Labour machine became apparent.

Over a year ago Mr Blair toured the world in search of a "Legacy".
I said then that his "legacy" would be as "The man who caused the break up of the UK". This now seems to behappening, with the SNP poised to make massive gains in the next election.

It would be easy to feel sorry for Prime Minister Brown, who is reaping what has been sown by Blair, but never forget Brown was as much a part of the "New Labour Project" as Blair, and supported him in his Iraqi adventure.

When the electorate turn against a government, that government is finished....this has happened to Labour, but weep no tears for them, they have been the architects of their own misfortunes

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 25 Jul 08 - 03:46 AM

You may be right. But look at Thatch, who never won a by election but kept coming back. mainly due to the Kinnock/Foot factor, it has to be said.

I hope its not the end of Labour, cos that means a new start for the tories and the Ulster Unionists.

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: akenaton
Date: 25 Jul 08 - 03:54 AM

Sorry Al...They've gone...Finished....Kaputt...They are an ex-Party.

I think the Party will disintegrate....Maybe re-form as a "left of centre outfit.   No matter, the earthquake is about to move South.
The old Parties ..even the Tories have had their day.

Exciting Times Eh!!

Keep well my friend.....Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: Stu
Date: 25 Jul 08 - 04:26 AM

"But....for the more politically sensitive among us, the tremors were felt before the start of the Iraq War, when people first began to realise what the Labour Party had become."

Amen - it was the great deception of 1997 and I would say most of us were taken in by it.

When it became clear that Socialist principles had been abandoned and we were left with just another form of Thatcherism it was most depressing. That said, we did get the minimum wage and some degree of social reform, but big business still drives so much policy making that should be aimed at making peoples lives better.

I really hope you're right Ake - we need some proper left of centre politicians back in the mainstream to balance the folly of unregulated capitalism.

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: Teribus
Date: 25 Jul 08 - 04:59 AM

Congratulations to the SNP, every kick that can be delivered to Gordon of Cartoon's shambolic Nu-Labour Government, the better.

"Glasgow Earthquake" Akenaton announces, as does MSM in the UK, rather over-eggs the situation. What was seen in Glasgow was a mid term By-Election protest vote that signifies very little.

The SNP will still not rush to any referendum on independence because they know exactly what the result would be.

Here is the result in full:

John Mason, SNP - 11,277
Margaret Curran, Labour - 10,912
Davena Rankin, Conservative - 1,639
Ian Robertson, Lib Dem - 915
Frances Curran, Scottish Socialist Party - 555
Tricia McLeish, Solidarity - 512
Dr Eileen Duke, Scottish Greens - 232
Chris Creighton, Independent - 67
Hamish Howitt, Freedom 4 Choice - 65
Turnout 42.25%

SNP share of the vote = 43.08%

If turnout was only 42.25% at 26,174 then 61,950 were elligible to vote. So out of the voters in the constituency the SNP support amounts to 18.2% of the electorate. Voter turn out 42.25% which means 57.75% of the electorate couldn't even be bothered to vote - Hardly a ringing endorsement - certainly no "Eartquake".

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 25 Jul 08 - 05:35 AM

When Mrs Thatcher was asked recently what her greatest triumph was, she replied "New Labour"
                Bye bye Nanny state.

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: An Buachaill Caol Dubh
Date: 25 Jul 08 - 11:45 AM

As "akenaton" stated initially, the East End of Glasgow has been returning Labour politicians since the days of Maxton, Wheatley and Shinwell - and is still "one of the most deprived areas in Britain", although there have been several Labour administrations in the last century, and, with regard to local/Council politics, a virtual Labour monopoly. Not exactly a strong reason for continuing to vote for Labour, or New Labour as it's been called in a rebranding exercise. One of the best leaflets of the campaign showed a photograph of Gordon Brown with another politician he greatly admires; it was issued by the Scottish National Party, and of course the other politician was Thatcher. One of the most significant things Brown ever said was an impromptu reply to some journalist who, in the early days of the current "war against terrorism", when Brown was Chancellor, asked how much the war would cost. Instantly, Brown replied, "as much as it takes"; perhaps the video clip is still available. Had anyone asked how much would be spent on health care, education, &c., it wouldn't be long before familiar phrases about "financial prudence" and "prioritization of finite resources" were trotted out; but you would wait long enough before any politician would say "as much as it takes". That's the calibre of a person who makes it to a top position. Hope I live to see Scotland regain the kind of pride and self-respect that comes of the kind of independence every other nation has as an unquestioned right; here, you have to argue for it.

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Jul 08 - 06:53 PM

The Glaswegians voted for the most left-wing candidate who stood a chance of winning, naturally enough. Not much comfort for the Tories in this result.

The obvious card for Labour to play in this situation is to bring in electoral reform with a single transferable vote. That's the only way to bring out the voters who can't see much significant difference between New Labour and New Tory, and could give a good chance of a hung parliament with a centre left majority.

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: akenaton
Date: 26 Jul 08 - 03:28 AM

How do you factor Scottish independence into that McGrath?

Independence within five years seems inevitable and where would that position an English/Welsh Labour party?

No, political slight of hand can't fix this one, everyone I speak to (and this is borne out by election results), just want Labour out of power. Most feel used and ashamed of what was done by Blair and his cabinet.
"The war" is still the main reason that people want them gone, but there are all the other disgraces...."Cash for honours"..."Cheriegate"
"Presidential politics", "Sleaze on a vast scale" (worse than the last Tory govt, but more cleverly carried out)"
"Hypocrisy" (Abbott, Jowell and many others)
People have realised that Labour no longer speaks for the under-priviliged and that they are even worse than the Conservatives when in power........(Oh they give a little....a minimum wage that might just keep us from starving, but none of the political parties would allow us to starve to death!....That would be bad PR), but the damage they have done to the cause of "Socialism" is very great.
Hypocrisy has always been the "Achilles heel" of the Left and the New Labour Project has made that hypocrisy apparent to everyone.
Who would have thought that a Labour MP of thirty years standing could be banished from the party for daring to speak against war.

I hope that here in Scotland, we can make a new begining....not Scotland.com or Scotland Ltd, but real freedom for our people that others may wish to follow. Time will tell.

As for you Southerners, I'm afraid all you have left is the power of prayer.....Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 26 Jul 08 - 03:46 AM

'a minimum wage that might just keep us from starving, but none of the political parties would allow us to starve to death!....'

well that's wrong they both would, and have done.

however theres a certain sang froid about the social engineering done by the radical right in my lifetime - which ought to send shivers down the spine of anybody not super rich.

And what exactly does Cameron stand for? Like Thatcher, you won't think to ask til its too late.

I was talking to an old friend and confirmed tory yesterday. He said he knows Cameron will win the next election. He says women vote for the best looking guys - they voted for Blair, they'll vote for Cameron.

Just thought I'd let you know the latest tory thinking. Boy are they feeling confident!

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: akenaton
Date: 26 Jul 08 - 03:57 AM

Al...Cameron stands for exactly what Blair/ Brown stand for.

The continuation of a social/economic system which makes the rich, richer and the poor, poorer.
Some of them might not (deep in their hearts), want it to be that way, but they KNOW (deep in their hearts), that it IS that way!

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 26 Jul 08 - 05:02 AM

Cameron, of course, the product of generations of power an exploitation wants to make old Etonians richer than the rest of us for ever, and for the rest of us to do as we are ordered by our betters. At present he is, as a politician, lying in order to get elected.

Blair was simply a carpetbagger.

Brown in one sense is a prisoner of the machine. He may have some socialist instincts but has become boxed in to the orthodoxy of greed amongs voters.

The real problem here is whether there is a greater chance of social justice under the New Labour party or whether like chickens at Christmas we want to put the Etonians back in charge of the slaughterhouse.

What a shame Bob Marshall-Andrews is retiring.

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: Stu
Date: 26 Jul 08 - 09:29 AM

All of this simply goes to to show the dire state of UK politics.

All the main parties lack a coherent ideology that goes beyond unregulated capitalism and this is why modern politics has lost the trust of most people. Turning your electorate into consumers might have seemed like a good idea when taking your inspiration from Thatcher's brutal monetarist policies, but this bid to attract the middle classes into the New Labour fold has backfired badly.

What Glasgow East has demonstrated is Labour have gone so far down the road of Thatcherite free market economics they have effectively alienated their core voters - the less well off who still believe in socialist policies they thought they were getting when electing Labour in 1997.

This along with the rush to war at side of a right-wing American Neocon puppet and the subsequent betrayal of the trust of the UK electorate when the entire debacle was found to be based on a pack of half-truths and lies has damaged Labour so much they will probably loose the next election to one of the most policy-deficient Tory parties ever seen (in fact, until Thatcher dies this is likely to remain the state of the party as they cannot seem to escape her not inconsiderable shadow).


"People have realised that Labour no longer speaks for the under-priviliged and that they are even worse than the Conservatives when in power"

I doubt if the men of Clydeside, Steelos, Bilston Glen or the Yorkshire coalfields would agree with this Ake. The minimum wage itself was no mean feat to introduce, and provides some protection for those in the lowest paid jobs. They have introduced devolved government in Wales and Scotland and were instrumental in facilitating the stopping of the war in the North of Ireland (remember Mo Mowlem visiting the Maze to persuade the hard-line Loyalists to sign up to the peace process - a Tory would never have had the courage to do that).

We need a return to the politics of principle, and the rebuilding of ideologies that can take us forward as a society, for the benefit of all. What a shame Tony Benn has retired.

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 26 Jul 08 - 10:03 AM

Largely agreed

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: DougR
Date: 26 Jul 08 - 02:01 PM

Many of us in the US believe that with the election of Sarkozy in France and Merkel in Germany, both countries have turned to the right a bit. Certainly relations between the Bush administration and the leaders of both countries are much better than they were with the previous left-wing leaders.

Any chance Great Britain may be turning a bit more right?

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 26 Jul 08 - 03:01 PM

How far would you suggest?

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 26 Jul 08 - 04:17 PM

Or what? You'll send a gunboat?

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Jul 08 - 05:15 PM

How do you factor Scottish independence into that McGrath

Obviously another reason to vote SNP. And I'd vote for independence in a referendum, if I lived in Scotland - but I doubt if all their voters would. Though if the Tories win the next Westminster Election that will obviously help the SNP when it comes to the referendum.

And all this should make it crystal clear that sticking to the present electoral system for Westminser makes no kind of sense for Labour. There's probably a potential longterm natural anti-Tory majority in the country (even with Scotland gone), but that was true throughout the Thatcher years, and it didn't stop her carving society into pieces.

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Jul 08 - 06:14 PM

Not as simple as that, Doug. The Labour Party has moved to the right, and lost support in the process. The Tories have moved leftwards, at least in rhetoric) which is all that matters for an opposition party can, so that there's nothing to choose between the two, and that has helped them gain credibility. The Scot Nats are well to the left of either, so this Glasgow election is in no way a move to the right.

And all of them, Labour, Tories or Scot Nats, are what you would be likely to denounce as far left liberals if they were in the States. (Which would also, of course, be true of Merkel and Sarkozy.)

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: DougR
Date: 26 Jul 08 - 06:23 PM

Thanks, McGrath, for treating my question seriously, and civally.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 26 Jul 08 - 07:02 PM

Yeh but the thing is Doug - politics in France are a great deal more extreme than over here.

Whereas the the USAF has bases with nuclear weapons in this country. When they went to bomb Gaddafi - France wouldn't even let the planes that set off from England use French airspace. We are a lot more right wing than France - our right wing does get elected. But their right wing is less significant and scary - they're like National Front almost fascist party. Very nationalistic. They don't really expect to get elected.

Our right wing has two parts to it - both contained in the Tory party and both for the most part - respectful of the democratic process (which figures because they are quite popular and DO get elected). There is an anti European old guard and a radical right. Its an odd mixture - you never know exactly where you are with them.

They stand for tax breaks and lots of perks for the stinking rich and everything else is pretty much negotiable.

Both main English parties are strong believers in shadowing and supporting American foreign policy.

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 26 Jul 08 - 08:17 PM

"Both main English parties are strong believers in shadowing and supporting American foreign policy."

That is also true, to a considerable extent, of Canada's government...although it is far less to the right politically speaking than the USA. At present, over 75% of Canadians would vote for Obama, not McCain...and we are in Afghanistan despite the fact that the majority of our public would prefer that we were not.

The reason for that is simple. Our government doesn't really serve the Canadian people, it serves its corporate financial backers, and they are the same people whom the British and American governments serve.

Elections are held to give people the impression that their opinion still matters. It doesn't matter much. The party machines don't serve the public either, you see, but they blow off a great deal of hot air trying to act as if they do, (and I'm sure that most of their party members at the lower levels innocently believe that stuff too). They will promise you anything when they want your vote. ;-) Once elected, they'll do something else entirely, because they don't work for you. They'll do what they had planned to do anyway, but what they didn't bother mentioning to you when they were courting your votes...and you won't be able to stop them, because once they're in...they're in till the next election. So you'll finally get disgusted and vote them out, and then the other corporate servant party will do the very same thing to you...in a slightly different manner, perhaps, but essentially the same thing.

And once again you'll get blindsided. That's what happened to people in the UK when they elected Tony Blair's government.

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 26 Jul 08 - 09:18 PM

'And once again you'll get blindsided. That's what happened to people in the UK when they elected Tony Blair's government. '

I don't think so really. The electable Labour leaders have all been pretty right wing. Wilson used to get the odd rush of blood to the head - but his critics always complained of him as 'the galloping pragmatist' - making up policies to suit the circumstances rather than from deeply held belief.

The left wing always say they've been sold out, but the lessons of history are there on the History Channel every day of the week. Europe is undependable as an ally. By and large,(with a few glitches like Suez) America has been in our corner - and probably we owe our survival and loyalty to them. The English are a very conservative electorate - Euro sceptic, and they recognise the value of the American alliance.

Oddballs like Kinnock and Foot stood no chance, even with only an unpopular government of incompetent Thatcherite lickspittles to defeat.

If you vote Labour and they get in. You have the status quo but with some humanitarian depth in their vision. Nobody thinks voting Labour is voting for the red revolution. Just some Americans!

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: Jim McLean
Date: 27 Jul 08 - 04:59 AM

On the question of hypocrisy, I wrote the following in the late 1960s in support of the SNP.


The Scottish MP: words Jim MacLean tune: Off to Dublin in the Green

Chorus:
I'm off to London in the morn, in the morn
In Westminster I will be
And I'll leave behind my brains and mind
And try for am M.B.E.

Oh I am a Scottish M.P.
From a city grey and black
And I'll shut my mouth when I'm in the south
Just in case they send me back
Now some folk work for Labour
And some for the Tory class
But I work like hell for me mysel'
And the rest can kiss my - kilt

Oh Scotland, dearest Scotland
You have given me your trust
If I make the grade to the Board of Trade
Just guess who'll I trade first
I'll trade the Lowlands for a peerage
Give me an earldom for the Isles
And the whole damn lot could be easily bought
With one of Lizzie's smiles

Oh I am a Scots Home Ruler
At my English Queen's command
For my real birthright is to be a knight
And the rest can be republican
So come Grimond, Home and Ramsay Mac
Our Scottish Englishmen
Nationality for a Scots M.P.
Means tea at Number Ten

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 27 Jul 08 - 05:07 AM

great stuff Jim!

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: akenaton
Date: 27 Jul 08 - 05:40 AM

Stig...I don't often disagree with you, but we don't need a return to anything.

Who was it said "Work makes us free"?

Work enslaves us and diminishes our quality of life.

Capitalism has led us to expect an ever increasing and more wastful standard of living, substituting worthless material junk for real life.
We need to completely re-examine our role on this planet and this is as good a time as any to start....Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 27 Jul 08 - 07:00 AM

I don't think a return to the politics of principle (which has been a pretty rare thing) is incompatible with ake's otherwise excellent post above.

DougR, most of us in Europe find the US postulation of right wing capitalist politics as some sort of norm or having some sort of desirability, and the associated preening that the US is the policeman of the world, that its enslavement of other cultures under its economic colonialism is some sort of liberation deeply, deeply offensive: just as offensive as the insistence by Christian missionaries that they were "saving" those they railroaded into subjugation.

We do believe that socialism is, that sharing is, morally superior to the beggar my neighbour beliefs apparently so prevalent in the USA.

It seemed to me, and it I expect seems to many of us, that you were taking a cheap shot about the "superiority" of the US norm over all others. It would I feel be consistent with your general political stance here, would it not?

I don't often quote the bible, but surely as ye sow so shall ye reap.

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: Leadfingers
Date: 27 Jul 08 - 07:49 AM

I am Working Class and proud of it ! I ALWAYS voted Labour until 1997 , when ALL mention of Socialism was removed from the New Labour Manifesto . Since then , I have voted in EVERY election in my local Constituency and have NEVER Voted for the Labour candidate . (OR The Conservative , if it matters)

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: goatfell
Date: 27 Jul 08 - 06:38 PM

I was in Northern Ireland on holiday and I'm glad that the SNP won, because it's goodbye the unionists parties, and hopefully goodbye to Westminster rule, Home rule for England.

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: DougR
Date: 27 Jul 08 - 07:08 PM

My original post was not intended to convey that all countries should emulate the U.S. economic policies, though in America it has, by an large been successful and affords the majority a comfortable life. In no way did I intend to insult anyone or convey a sense of superiority. I wrote the post only to learn more about the political system in the British Isles. My experience on the Mudcat has led me to believe that the definition of liberal and conservative might differ in the U. S. from the definition in other parts of the world.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Jul 08 - 07:28 PM

There is often an unexamined assumption when people are talking about politics in different countries, along the lines that there's a neat political spectrum you can apply everywhere, a bit like an exchange rate converter for different currencies. But often that just isn't true. The popular concerns which drive and shape politics are just too different.

The very same policies that are seen as defining marks of being on the right or the left will typically be mixed up in a totally different way. What's seen as right wing in one place will be seen as left wing in another, and parties and regimes will have their own peculiar mix of the two.

Moreover the significant differences often aren't on the left-right spectrum at all, but in a completely independent authoritarian-libertarian spectrum - which graphically would need to be plotted at right angles.

And on top of that, of course, there are differences in the way words are used. Most especially for a word like "liberal" which in some places can be used by parties at virtually any point on either of those spectra.

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: Stu
Date: 28 Jul 08 - 04:43 AM

Ake - I totally agree with you. What I was trying to say in my slightly ham-fisted way was we need to return to a politics where ideals come before greed.

My worry is we are becoming too like the Americans in our approach: Here 'democracy' means 'capitalism' - the words are virtually interchangeable and to my mind is devaluing the very concept of democracy as a political system. From the posts here we are all aware of the ties between big business and our respective governments; other posts have discussed the shadowy Bilderberg Group, where discussion take place far from the prying eyes of the electorate.

This is why I think the UK should have closer ties with Europe. Although we are often at odds with our continental neighbours we also have far more in common with them than we realise, and as many European countries have made the mistakes of Empire have a unique perspective on the consequences of a belligerent approach to foreign policy and subsequently are far more tolerant societies. The politics of most European countries are totally secular, and with the rise of the religious right in American politics as a counter to the perceived radicalisation if Islam this middle way approach (although I hate to use a term coined by Blair) is needed if we are to maintain a balanced and considered response to the problems facing the world.

My worry is we have already succumbed to the lie of consumerism; at some point in the last decade we crossed the rubicon that means we are all to clingy to our material possessions and home comforts, which makes us sheep-like in our acceptance of the ever-increasing threats on our liberty from our own governments, and that is a truly frightening prospect.

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 28 Jul 08 - 05:53 AM

In that case, Doug, I misread you and will stand back a little more.

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 28 Jul 08 - 12:21 PM

"Who was it said "Work makes us free"?

Work enslaves us and diminishes our quality of life."

Oh, Akenaton, you never spoke a truer word!! Today is my 60th birthday and, because I got thrown on the scrapheap at 57, I've been able to doss about taking photographs and soaking up the sunshine. So much of my life was wasted on making profits for rich c**ts - money-grubbing, moronic, life-hating bastards! I realise now that so much of my 'life' as a 'wage-slave' was a complete waste of time. May they all die of some excrutiating disease and burn in Hell - f**k 'em!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: Teribus
Date: 28 Jul 08 - 01:38 PM

Hey Guest Shimrod, don't feel as though you have to hold back, I mean tell it like you think it is.

I have never heard such self-pitying drivel in my entire life, I would rather hope somebody shot me before I came out with such crap.

"So much of my life was wasted on making profits for rich c**ts" - I take it that you were in paid employment or are you just talking about what you used to throw over the bar each week?

"money-grubbing, moronic, life-hating bastards!" - Well as only you know who you are talking about we can put this down as a highly subjective personal opinion.

"I realise now that so much of my 'life' as a 'wage-slave' was a complete waste of time." - I take it then that you could have left and done something else you thought was more rewarding at any time.

"May they all die of some excrutiating disease and burn in Hell - f**k 'em!!!" - So much for the milk of human kindness, they should suffer such ill-will for doing being guilty of doing what exactly? Employing you? Paying you? Heaven forbid for making a profit?

Grow up, there are many, many more in the world who have suffered far harsher fates who bear them with one thousand times the fortitude displayed by the likes of you - I take it Guest Shimrod that you are a "socialist" judging by that well worn mantra - It's everybody else's fault except my own, somebody else should have done something about it.

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: DougR
Date: 28 Jul 08 - 02:32 PM

Teribus: Guest Shimrod's post is an excellent example of liberal compassion.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 28 Jul 08 - 04:09 PM

For a start, Teribus I don't have to defend myself against people like you - f**k you and your scorn!

Actually, if you must know, my comments were a reflection on the amount of time I spent in pointless meetings listening to drivel spouted by egotistical, know-nothing idiots. and the amount of time I spent writing other pointless drivel on flip-charts in 'brain-storming' sessions, and other stupid 'management' exercises, which never produced anything remotely worthwhile.

Add to that the equally endless hours spent trying to second guess the intentions of the super-annuated ego-maniacs at the top and the subsequent office politics. "Oh, STEVE farted in the meeting this morning - this must mean he he wants us to stand on our heads and juggle coconuts with our feet - possibly ... ???"

And while this was going on sytematic ways of doing things, knowledge, skills and craftmanship were gradually phased out and replaced by brute-force-and-ignorance, bullshit and lots and lots of arm-waving. No wonder the world economy is going down the tubes!

Anyway, changing the subject, who exactly are you, Teribus? I get these paranoid fantasies about you being some sort of 'spook' who is paid to go on to websites and ridicule anything vaguely subversive. You only ever seem to support the status-quo. If I'm even vaguely right, I have the satisfaction of knowing that your life working life is an even bigger waste of time than mine was.

Oh and by the way, since I became involuntarily 'work-free' I have begun to live again - I insist - working was a waste of my time and everyone else's (38 years of my life, Teribus, you a**hole!). And at least I don't have to take any crap from people like you!

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 28 Jul 08 - 04:23 PM

Shimrod's entitled to express the way he feels.

If on sober reflection, that's how he feels about his working life, you should respect that.

yes theres always people have harder lives than you have - it doesn't relieve of responsibility those people who are always sodding up other peoples lives. And we're at a time of our lives when you should understand we all feel a little bitterness for what might have been and indeed what should have been.

show a bit of compassion, and stop taking cheap shots.

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: Teribus
Date: 28 Jul 08 - 04:48 PM

WLD - Exactly as I ended my last post - That well worn "socialist" mantra of "the left" - It's everybody else's fault except my own, somebody else should have done something about it.

As for Guest Shimrod, if he was stupid enough to vent here in a public forum as he did then he should expect to receive comments both supporting and condemning whatever he says - respect does not enter into it, especially in a post that calls down ill on those whose only apparent crime is to have done their jobs and attracted the venom of someone who does not have the guts to state the case against them.

It took him 38 years to find out he disliked his job - that would amount to a damn slow learning curve by anyone's standards.

No-one is owed a life, if a person adjudges things to be wrong with their lives it is up to them to change things. But there again asking a "socialist" to adopt any measure of personal responsibility is a complete and utter anathema and an utterly pointless exercise - Somebody else has to do it, with "Government money" of course.

"And while this was going on sytematic ways of doing things, knowledge, skills and craftmanship were gradually phased out and replaced by brute-force-and-ignorance, bullshit and lots and lots of arm-waving. No wonder the world economy is going down the tubes!" - Guest Shimrod - ill-informed "Luddite" Crap.

As for me Guest Shimrod, rest assured that I have absolutely no "paranoid fantasies about you" at all. And for the record, I do not so much "support the status quo" as tilt at the usual ill-constructed, illogical, left-wing, lies, half-truths, misrepresentations and myths that get trotted out time after time for the blind acceptance of fools such as yourself.

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: akenaton
Date: 28 Jul 08 - 04:58 PM

Shimrod ....It was a fine post containing all the frustration that most of us feel over so many wasted years.
Very few of us live our lives any longer. we are in hock up to our necks, while Capitalism constructs ever more efficient ways of exchanging our lives on earth, for worthless crap.

Don't worry about Teribus, the insulated soundproof box that he lives in, ensures that he feels no pain.

I have read that in lower life forms, the brain is not sufficiently developed to feel pain......or empathy.

Hope you have any happy years to compensate for the shit...Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 28 Jul 08 - 05:06 PM

Some people get stuck in situations thay have no control over - family responsibilities and the like.

You do the best you can with your life. No one intentionally screws up everything. even the village drunk thinks its the best accomodation of the facts of his life that he can manage.

you know what Jesus said - Judge not lest ye be judged.

that's the toughest commandment in my book Teribus, but its a goodie! makes you think!

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: Teribus
Date: 28 Jul 08 - 05:53 PM

"you know what Jesus said - Judge not lest ye be judged. - WLD

"So much of my life was wasted on making profits for rich c**ts - money-grubbing, moronic, life-hating bastards! ........ May they all die of some excrutiating disease and burn in Hell - f**k 'em!!!" - Guest Shimrod.

Nothing judgemental about that little outburst at all then, eh Al?

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 28 Jul 08 - 06:13 PM

well yes other people are judgemental, but you have heard it said, an eye or an eye, a tooth for a tooth. but I say to thee, if another man offends thee turn the other cheek...

You have to be nicer than the other guy - otherwise the situation stays the same.

Its a goodie. makes you think.

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Jul 08 - 07:19 PM

Aren't personal attacks on other members supposed to be disallowed in this place?

Not that anyone should need that kind of rule to stop them going in for such attacks. More especially when they have not even got the excuse that they were the target of a personal attack. A shame. because it messes up discussions that deserve to be treated better, and often completely derails them, or gets threads closed down by the Mudcat's fire marshalls.
..........................

Any time I meet a former colleague I can generally tell whether they are still working or if they have retired by the expression on their faces. If they look shifty and a bit at odds with the world they probably haven't retired yet. If they look relaxed and cheerful they probably have. (And I'm talking about people who are or were doing a reasonably interesting job and on the whole liking it well enough.)

There are exceptions. People for whom the end of their employment feels like the end of their life - the fate which we are constantly told lies in wait for us, during our working years. But thank God, it's not true for most of us - in fact that story is essentially a con that serves to keep us under control.

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: DougR
Date: 28 Jul 08 - 07:53 PM

McGrath: if you are referring to Guest Shimrod's attack on Teribus, it would appear that Shimrod is not a member.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: Stu
Date: 29 Jul 08 - 04:38 AM

Hmm, it appears a post of mine has disappeared - how unusual.

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Jul 08 - 06:56 AM

Actually I was referring to Teribus's personal attack on Shimrod, when he (or she) sounded off against things in general in a non-personalised way.

With 1000+ plus posts, above and below the lines, Shimrod may sign in as a GUEST but surely counts as a member. And the thumbs down on personal attacks surely applies to making such attacks on anyone who comes to the Mudcat.

It's quite possible to express disagreement and argue forcefully without getting into that kind of stuff - as you demonstrate, Doug. Arguing doesn't have to mean quarrelling.

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 29 Jul 08 - 10:07 AM

akenaton,

It seems to me that the Scottish Nationalists have won a protest vote against the ruling party. Their victory probably has more to do with dissatisfaction with the price of gas and the cost of optional war than it does with scottish independence.

Canada has had the Bloc in Quebec for many years now, though they still talk of independence, their political niche is to be regional advocates. In a parliamentary system, the squeekiest wheeled do get oiled.

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 29 Jul 08 - 11:22 AM

Well said Shimrod.

Teribus - go play squash. You probably drive the steamroller.

Subject: RE: BS: Glasgow earthquake!
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 29 Jul 08 - 12:59 PM

"It took him 38 years to find out he disliked his job - that would amount to a damn slow learning curve by anyone's standards."

I didn't say that I disliked my job, Teribus. In fact I loved it and was bloody good at it (even though I say so myself). What I hated, and came to loathe, was the god-awful 'management culture' that crept in,like some poisonous miasma, to pervade my workplace. I also came to despise the grubby, back-stabbing, talentless careerists who always seemed to float to the top like the proverbial scum. My actual job, the one described in my 'job description' was gradually displaced by 'targets', form filling, writing bollocks on flip-charts, arm-waving, 'Health & Safety' (aka: a perfect excuse for the talentless to boss others around) and meaningless 'hoop-jumping'. THESE things were a waste of my life!

I came to notice that my infrequent trips abroad - to Eastern Europe and South East Asia - came closer to being more fulfilling because people in those places had not yet been infected with the virus of 'managerialism' (give them time!). And don't even get me started on the vile, super-hypocritical dogma of 'team-working'!

Actually, I am now involved in voluntary work - and very satisfying it is too! Now I'm experiencing REAL teamwork - not the spurious, dogmatic kind forced down our throats in my previous paid employment.

I meet many fine people in the course of this work - some paid and some, like me, unpaid. In private the paid ones often complain to me about the same sorts of bullshit that I had to endure not so long ago.