The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Don Firth
Date: 28 Oct 08 - 02:46 PM

"The Planets," a seven movement orchestral suite by Gustav Holst. I'm quite familiar with it. I believe what Holst had in mind when he composed the work is more the mythological attributes ascribed to each planet rather than their astrological characteristics.

Very nice work, actually.

Midi renditions of the suite HERE.   Very "electronic" sound compared to the orchestral versions, but interesting nonetheless.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Don Firth
Date: 28 Oct 08 - 04:56 PM

I must admit (at the risk of being stoned in the streets) that Bob Dylan is not, and never has been, my cup of tea. I found him grating right from the start, and it was a bit later that I began to understand the reasons for my immediate and visceral negative reaction to him.

It seems that when he was in high school, he was singing rock and roll (nothing wrong with that) and that he had a fairly nice singing voice, not unlike Buddy Holly's. The word is that some of his school friends were more than a little appalled when they heard his first folk records. What had he done to his singing voice!??

I believe it was in Positively 4th Street that David Hajdu described the "transition" that Dylan went through once he reached Greenwich Village.

What he was doing was suppressing his natural voice, singing through his nose, wandering off-pitch (which he hadn't been doing before), and generally trying to sound like he was ninety years old and toothless. This, apparently, was his idea of how folk songs should be sung!

Well—there are a lot of people out there who seem to feel that if you want to be a folk singer, you should not try to sing well—or that you should try not to sing well. This shows a level of contempt for one's audiences and it demeans both the songs themselves and the source singers who sang them, some of whom are very good singers by almost any standard.

If a song is worth singing, whether it is a folk song, a pop song, or an art song, it is worth trying to sing it to the best of your ability. I don't mean that you should try to make a folk song sound like Schubert lieder; one should stay within the stylistic framework of any genre of songs. But intentionally singing badly is not an inherent characteristic of folk music, and to do so intentionally is both phony and degrading to the whole genre.

My apologies to Bob Dylan enthusiasts, but them's my sediments.

As far as protest songs are concerned, heck, I sing a few of them myself. But a little bit goes a long way. I really hate it when I pay good money to hear someone sing and they spend the whole evening trying to propagandize me from the stage, "lecturing" the audience with their choice of songs. Part of it may be that so many singers of protest songs seem so damned self-righteous.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 Oct 08 - 05:41 PM

"Part of it may be that so many singers of protest songs seem so damned self-righteous."

Yeah...just like most of the membership here seem whenever they start discussing politics, social issues, religion, morality, incidents in the news, each other's posts and general attitude, etc.

We are daily awash here in a sea of self-righteous posturing. Thank God it is not all put into song, eh, Don? ;-)


You are quite correct that Bob Dylan deliberately altered his voice after becoming enamored of folk music. He did this instinctively, mainly because he had fallen in love with the music of people like Woody Guthrie, Ramblin' Jack Elliot, and a bunch of the old acoustic blues singers. He took on all the husk and bark of those men...with rather remarkable results. Some liked it, some didn't. I can well understand why you didn't like it, and I didn't like it at first either. My natural instinct is to sing purely and on key, not through the nose, with resonance, without the husk and bark.

I can't fault Dylan for doing it at the time, though, because it's so common for young people to take on an accent or vocal style in that way. Why do country singers all seem to sing with a "twang"? Why do male country singers wear big hats? Well, because they grew up wanting to, that's why. They were imitating a style they admired. All young Bob was doing was imitating a style he admired...and that style was the style of the specific musicians he was inspired by the most at the time. He probably considered it "realer" than singing "pretty", but it's not a style you admire. Fine.

I quite agree that deliberately singing badly is not required in order to sing folk music. ;-) It can also be rather hard on the vocal chords.

I feel that by 1965 Dylan had become an extremely effective singer in his own right, with his own style. He had considerably moved away from the Guthriesque thing by that time, both vocally and lyrically.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 Oct 08 - 05:50 PM

I will also say that the key with protest music (usually) is to work just enough of it into an act to present a contrast to the rest of the material and keep things interesting. In other words, mix things up a bit. Inject some humour. Add some romance. Some sad stuff. Some happy stuff. Some thoughtful stuff. Many ingredients make for a good stew.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Don Firth
Date: 28 Oct 08 - 08:24 PM

Good point, Little Hawk, about Dylan being young and trying to imitate the people he admired.   But I think he carried it to extremes. There was one comment I read (I think it was in Hajdu's book, but I can't swear to it) that after visiting Woody Guthrie at the hospital, Dylan was singing someplace and was staggering and twitching all over the stage as he sang. "Someone muttered, 'He's not just imitating Guthrie, he's imitating Guthrie's disease.'" (Huntington's chorea).

I think that in becoming Bob Dylan, Bobby Zimmerman kinda got lost somewhere. . . .

And just to be clear, I'm not advocating that people should try to "sing pretty." Truth to tell, some really fine singers don't have particularly pretty voices. Dave Van Ronk, for example:   the guy sounded like a rusty hinge. But boy! could he put a song across!

Trying to "sing pretty" can actually detract from a song. Just sing honest.

Re: protest songs. I don't often sing protest songs, and definitely not the more blatant ones. It has to have something to justify it as a song other than the protest, otherwise, it's just bitching. I will occasionally stick something like Johnnie, I Hardly Knew Ye (I don't sing the more strident verses; I sing just the four verses I learned from Walt Robertson, which more than adequately delineate the personal tragedy without beating the audience over the head with it) or Guthrie's Deportees into an evening's program, and then move on to something lighter.

In the concert Bob Nelson and I did together last year, in the second half, I sang Eric Bogle's The Green Fields of France and Bob followed with Tom Paxton's My Son John—two very heavy songs, especially one after the other. Left the audience a bit stunned. We'd made our point. Then, we moved on and lightened the mood a lot.

Don Firth

P. S. By the way, I don't think I would equate taking a strong stand on a moral or ethical issue with "self-righteous posturing." Granted, there is a bit of that here on Mudcat, but I think most people here have some pretty definite opinions. And some folks even have the facts to back them up!

Man! Some people hate that!!

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 29 Oct 08 - 08:07 AM

I still think that, within limits, it is good to affect one's voice for the genre, and have attempted such on, e.g., "Cob a Coaling" (E trad) versus "When I survey the Wondrous Cross" (E hymn) on myspace.

And, Don, I agree about '"The Planets," a seven movement orchestral suite by Gustav Holst. I'm quite familiar with it. I believe what Holst had in mind when he composed the work is more the mythological attributes ascribed to each planet rather than their astrological characteristics. Very nice work, actually'...but there is indeed also a classicalish band called The Planets, which I thought you may be interested in.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 29 Oct 08 - 08:24 AM

It would appear our wee Wavy gets his entire understanding of English culture from his television set. Try Channel U for a change, Wavy - last time I looked it was right next to the classical channel you mention, though classical in what sense I know not - dire pop-schlock MOR AOR more like. Interesting to note that if you got rid of Sky TV you could save yourself £300 a year and buy yourself a couple of decent wooden recorders; just goes to show where your real priorities lie!

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 29 Oct 08 - 08:36 AM

PS -

I still think that, within limits, it is good to affect one's voice for the genre, and have attempted such on, e.g., "Cob a Coaling" (E trad) versus "When I survey the Wondrous Cross" (E hymn) on myspace.

What exactly is the difference in your singing of WISTWC and CAC? I notice on both you attempt the same Northern Vowel Sound Approximation, and whilst in the latter the lack of accompaniment masks the intonation problems which are painfully evident in the former, I don't think this is an adequate argument for singing UE per se, rather an indication of how sloppy your approach in relation to the arrogance that would assume anyone would want to listen to it, let alone that it is somehow worthwhile. Yes, yes, it's all very subjective I know, but when it comes to the point where the only person you're fooling is yourself, then perhaps it's time to face a few home truths?

Get out of the mire and dry your trousers, Wavy - there's still a hell of a long way to travel before your life's work is at an end.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Paul Burke
Date: 29 Oct 08 - 08:49 AM

It's an old story, but perhaps WAV would like to read it, and ponder thereupon.

There was once a young Irish fiddler, the old country jigs and reels and all that. Nobody thought much of his music, there were always plenty of good players over there. Then, one night after being ignored once more in the pub session, he was walking back through the woods, when he heard a tiny voice cry out: "Help, for pity's sake, help!"

He looked all around, and at first he couldn't see anything. But a shaft of moonlight lit up the glade for a moment, and he saw a tiny little man dressed in green, caught in a huge spider's web.

It was the work of a few moments to free him, and the little man's gratitude overflowed. Of course, he was a leprechaun, and he granted Kieran his dearest wish as a reward. "I'd love to be a good fiddler", said Kieran. "Done as soon as said!" cried the leprechaun, "But tell me, do you want to play to please yourself, or to please everyone else?"

"Well, I'd be happy just to please myself", said Kieran. "Well, if you're sure about that, so be it", said the leprechaun, and in a twinkling he was gone. Kieran walked home bemused, perhaps it was all a dream, too much Guinness.

But the next evening, he got out his fiddle and thought about what had passed. "I wonder, will it make a difference?" he thought. He tentatively tried a tune... hey, that was good.. another, the Rakes of Mallow, pouring out of his fiddle like nothing he had ever heard. It was true!

You can be sure he could scarcely wait for the next session. He waited for a lull in the music, then launched off into the Spinning Wheel, lovely tune, perfect.... "Aw, shut the f*** up, Kieran, give us a break!" People were actually leaving, what had gone wrong?

Walking back home disconsolately, there in the woods, who should he meet but your man the leprechaun again. "Ah, I thought ye'd be back", he said. "It didn't go according to plan then?"

"No, it sounded fine to me, but they all hated it", said Kieran. "Well", said the leprechaun, "You could always try the other choice." "I'll give it a try," replied Kieran. And once more the leprechaun vanished.

It was days before he had the heart to get out his fiddle again, in the kitchen of his cottage. And the foul scraping noise that he made! He persisted for perhaps half an hour, but each tune was worse than the last, and in the end he put the fiddle away, vowing never to touch it again.

No sooner had he done so, than there was a hammering at the door. Opening it, there he found Mick McGowan and Jimmy Moloney, the two best musicians in the session. "What was that record you was playing there?" they asked, "We've never heard fiddling like that, who was it?"

"I don't know what you mean, I was just scraping on the fiddle," said Kieran, "I haven't got a record player or a radio." "God, man, that can't have been you? Play it again!"

After much persuasion, he got out the fiddle again, and started a tune. Boys of Blue Hill, as bad as any beginner, he stopped half way through. "There, I told you," he was saying. "Go on man, that's marvellous," gasped the others, "You've been putting in some practice on the QT!"

Kieran couldn't believe it, but they hauled him out to the pub, got all the musicians of the area together, and the session that night was remembered for years. Only Kieran hated every minute. Scrapes, missed notes, forgot the tune ("Jaysus man, that's a wonderful turn you've put on it there!"), everything was wrong, and everybody was screaming for more.

And that man the fiddler Kieran Mulligan (google for him) is renowned to this day. And widely known for his modesty, patience with learners, and reluctance to put himself forward. And the moral is that the true artist is his own harshest critic.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 29 Oct 08 - 10:35 AM

Nice one, Paul - I've got a recording somewhere of Seamus Ennis telling that in prelude to The Lark's March (if my memory serves me rightly).

Oddly enough, in a music shop in Lancaster on Saturday (is there only the one music shop in Lancaster I wonder?) I was trying out a few whistles, fumbling my way through the old Wheelwright's Tune of the Abbot's Bromley Horn Dance which pushes any whistle to its upper limits, thinking to myself what a racket I was making in the process. However, on our way out the young woman browsing the sheet music thanked me for my beautiful playing! How's that for truckley-how? Needs must I persevere with my whistle playing, as I have been these past 30 years...

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,Stu sans cookie
Date: 29 Oct 08 - 01:20 PM

Sean - I can't tell the difference in tone between coc and wistwc either. Intonation however is an area where in all sincerity I believe wav could make massive improvements with the help of a teacher/singer/musician who was prepared to give him some honest help and criticism.

Stu

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 29 Oct 08 - 04:06 PM

IB - you are getting a tad carried away...we didn't meet on the tele, e.g.; some say polymer tenor recorders can sound just as good as woods (though I've never tried the latter); and on "When I survey the Wondrous Cross" I'm surely singing in a sweeter Sunday-best timbre, whatever my intonation, than on my folk songs, on myspace.

Thanks for adding some storytelling to the mix, PB.

Stu - I keep playing a line, singing a line, playing a line...and listening to others too, of course, etc. And that's one thing I am very sure of - working on the TUNES is a good thing for an English folkie to do.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Don Firth
Date: 29 Oct 08 - 04:30 PM

Excellent, Paul!!

By the way, David. Whether one is singing off-pitch or not is not subjective. This is scientifically measurable.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 29 Oct 08 - 05:16 PM

I do detect a difference when I listen to your WISTWC. The rest of the songs are sung out of pitch, off key and in a ridiculos accent, but WISTWC adds a touch of twee to the mix. As Don said, try to sing honestly.
Doesn't have to be perfect (or Sunday best), in fact that renders it bland. When you sing WISTWC, you need to be living out the words. That would call for emphasising certain words, for putting feeling into it. If you weren't so closed-minded about 'Your Own Good Culture', you could pick up a lesson or two from Jewish paraliturgical music (piyutim).   

Stu - I keep playing a line, singing a line, playing a line...and listening to others too, of course, etc. And that's one thing I am very sure of - working on the TUNES is a good thing for an English folkie to do.

The tune is far from the most important part of a folksong. The important part is getting the story across.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 30 Oct 08 - 06:18 AM

"By the way, David. Whether one is singing off-pitch or not is not subjective. This is scientifically measurable." (Don)...I didn't say either - I said whether folks happen to like particular piece can be subjective...one man's meat...
And Volga added on - I watch Songs of Praise (BBC) nearly every week, and have some good Christian recordings, and am sure that the top singers in this genre are affecting their voice so as to sound sweeter, more-angelic, etc.
And, from the "Chords in Folk?" thread, it was said that English folk music is not all about the tune but it is/has been mostly
so.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 30 Oct 08 - 03:37 PM

Said by YOU.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 30 Oct 08 - 03:55 PM

Enough!!!

Give us more poetry.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Don Firth
Date: 30 Oct 08 - 04:01 PM

Poetry you want? Okay.

Note on the Antiquity of Fleas

Adam
Had'em.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 30 Oct 08 - 04:05 PM

A jaded young lady named Jill
Tried a dynamite stick for a thrill
They found her vagina
In North Carolina
And a bit of her clit in Brazil

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,His Brother's Brother
Date: 30 Oct 08 - 05:04 PM

Poetry
What
Is
It
Good
For.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Don Firth
Date: 30 Oct 08 - 08:59 PM

Dirty Limericks? We can do dirty Limericks now? Oh, boy!!

There was a young fellow from Kent
With an organ so long that it bent.
To save himself trouble
He inserted it double,
So instead of coming, he went.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Don Firth
Date: 30 Oct 08 - 09:04 PM

From the Archives:

There was an inventor named Gene
Who invented a sex machine.
Concave or convex
To please either sex,
But, man! What a bugger to clean!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 30 Oct 08 - 10:25 PM

"I said whether folks happen to like particular piece can be subjective...one man's meat..."

Well I subjectively don't like your stuff because it's horribly out of tune. Forget 'intonation problems' - you're tone deaf and you'll never be a singer while ever there's a hole in your arse.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: catspaw49
Date: 30 Oct 08 - 11:05 PM

Wavy has no meat to speak of and no women speak of it of course.

Its unkind to speak of male cranks
In the presence of young David Franks
His tiny tool is so small
Women laugh til they fall
And to offers of sex say, "NO THANKS!"


Spaw

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 31 Oct 08 - 05:13 PM

Don - where does the Bible mention fleas, please?

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 31 Oct 08 - 06:04 PM

Exodus 8:16-19
Psalm 105:31

As any fule kno.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Don Firth
Date: 31 Oct 08 - 06:09 PM

It's a JOKE, David!!

SHEESH!!

But think about it: do you think you could run around naked in a primitive garden with nothing on but a fig leaf and not pick up a few fleas?

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 31 Oct 08 - 06:14 PM

I know I did..

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 31 Oct 08 - 06:28 PM

where does the Bible mention fleas, please?

Check it out : Flea in the Bible.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 31 Oct 08 - 08:03 PM

Don & IB - We just fell, for his little attention-seeking ploy, didn't we?

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: s&r
Date: 31 Oct 08 - 08:12 PM

Liking your singing is a universal NO WAV.

There are some kind people who perhaps pretend to like it.

Stu

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Don Firth
Date: 31 Oct 08 - 08:18 PM

Hey, c'mon, this is getting a bit ridiculous—not that it has ever come close to being anything but.

Under the assumption that David is sincerely interested in folk music and isn't just a troll, and that despite the silliness of some of his assertions about who should be allowed to go where and why, and who should be allowed to sing what and how they should be allowed to sing it, I will put on my genuinely serious face and make one more attempt to bring order out of chaos.

Okay, David, listen up.

If you are truly interested in folk music and you enjoy it and you want to perform it, that's great. I'd say more power to you. Keep at it.

But—if you want to perform for other people, unless you are content just to drop in on folk clubs and merely be tolerated out of politeness by the other people there, and especially if you have ambitions of performing the songs you sing for a wider public, then you owe it to them, at the very least, to learn some basic skills, one of which is to sing in key and on pitch.

Playing a line on the recorder and trying it duplicate the pitches with your voice is better than nothing. But it would be better if you were to play the line and try to sing it at the same time. You can't do it with the recorder, obviously, but you say you play keyboard? Okay, you should be able to do it with that. So do it.

And your idea of not accompanying English folk songs with chords as you sing is counter-productive. When you are learning a song, once you have the tune in your ear (by repeatedly playing the melody line), sing it while playing the appropriate chords. This doesn't have to be a fancy accompaniment, just "block chords" will do. If you wander off-pitch, the clash between your voice and the chords will let you know. Once you know the tune solidly and can sing it without wandering off-pitch, then try singing the song without accompaniment.

If you have a cassette recorder, or, preferably, a small digital recorder (which, I presume you do have, since you've posted recordings on MySpace), record your singing, then play it back and listen to it carefully with a critical ear. Do this as a regular part of your practice (I mean, you do practice, don't you!?). Once you think what you hear when you play it back is just fine, then have someone else listen to it; someone whom you can trust to give you an honest evaluation—even if it hurts.

I'm not suggesting that you take voice lessons, although this would be the best approach, because good singing teachers are expensive, and I assume that if you are unemployed, you couldn't afford lessons. But—do you attend a church? If so, talk to the choir director. My local Lutheran church has a superb choir director, and he conducts free classes (in addition to regular choir rehearsals) one evening a week for choir members and anyone else who wishes to attend. In any case, you could ask the choir director to listen to you sing and give you an evaluation and make some suggestions. Perhaps you might even volunteer or audition to sing in your church choir. If accepted, this is a good way to get a bit of free vocal coaching and do some solid practice singing a variety of songs under fairly stringent conditions (not wanting to draw glares from the director or your fellow choir members).

And as I tell people (particularly singers of folk songs) who are nervous about taking singing lessons, or getting any kind of vocal coaching, all a voice teacher can do is teach someone correct vocal technique (how to use breath support, to sing without damaging their voice, to project, and help develop their ear so they can sing on pitch—unless they are just hopelessly tone-deaf). Taking singing lessons or coaching will not make you sound like an opera singer. Believe me, there are lots of young singers out there aspiring to sing opera who wish it was that easy; that all they had to do was take a few lessons and, voila! next stop, Covent Garden or The Met. Ain't gonna happen!!

One well-known singer of folk songs said the following:

"The value lies inherent in the song, not in the regional mannerisms or colloquialisms. No song is ever harmed by being articulated clearly, on pitch, with sufficient control of phrase and dynamics to make the most of the poetry and melody, and with an instrumental accompaniment designed to enrich the whole effect."

So don't think that because you want to sing folk songs, you don't have to at least try to sing well. The source singers, from whom these songs come—even if they don't have very good singing voices—at least try to sing as well as they are able.

Show them some respect by doing the same.

And as to the manner in which the songs should be sung, regarding matters of interpretation, vocal mannerisms, accents and such, another fine singer of folk songs said this:

"The most ticklish question still results from that awful word 'Folk Music,' which gives the erroneous impression that there is one body of music with one standard texture, dynamic, and history. Actually, the term today covers areas that are only connected in the subtlest terms of general feeling and experience. A United States cowboy song has less connection with a bloody Zulu tale than it has to 'Western Pop' music; a lowdown blues fits less with Dutch South African melody than with George Gershwin.

"Most of us agree in feeling as to our general boundaries, but more and more we search for our own particular contributions as musicians within these variegated provinces. There doesn't seem to be much point in imitating. What, after all, is the point of doing Little Moses exactly like the Carter Family? Yet it seems vital to convey the massive, punching instrumentals and the tense driving, almost hypnotic voice of the Carter Family performances.

"On the one hand, there is the danger of becoming a musical stamp collector. On the other, there is the equal danger of leaving behind the language, texture, and rhythm that made the music worthy of our devotion in the first place. So we have arrived at a point where in each case we try to determine those elements which make a particular piece of music meaningful to us, and to build the performance through these elements. By continuing to learn everything possible of the art form—techniques, textures, rhythms, cultural implications and conventions, we hope to mature constantly in our individual understanding and creativity in this music."

Read these two quotes carefully and think about them.

The first quote comes from a singer who was born in England and was a descendant of the peerage. He was educated in England, in Germany (prior to World War II, where he first developed an interest in singing folk songs), in Canada, and in the United States. He learned some of his first songs from fellow students in Germany, and early in his career was greatly inspired by Swedish lute-singer Sven Scholander to follow the tradition of the ancient minstrels. His singing attracted the attention of impresario Sol Hurok, and he has sung at both Carnegie Hall and Town Hall in New York, and regularly sang some fifty concerts a year during his active career, along with club appearances and American School Assemblies programs. He has many, many records out under various labels , including a dozen under his own label.   He had a repertoire of over seven hundred songs, mainly from the British Isles and the United States, but also from Germany and France.

The second quote comes from an immigrant to the United States. He was a German Jew who escaped from Germany when he was a teen-ager, just prior to or during World War II. He became interested in singing folk songs and taught himself to play the guitar. He was particularly interested in American blues, but eventually sang songs from a wide variety of sources, including the Appalachian Mountains, the Caribbean, and the British Isles. He was also a fine flamenco guitarist, and occasionally played for Spanish dancers. He was one of the finest, most subtly creative musicians and singers of folk songs I have ever met. Think of it, David:   a German Jew who sang American blues and played flamenco! And did both very well indeed!

The first quote is from Richard Dyer-Bennet. The second from Rolf Cahn (on the left, with guitar and kazoo, playing a bit of jug band music with Jim Kweskin and Debbie Green).

It's good that you want to honor your own culture. But—what "your own culture" actually is seems to be a bit ambivalent at this point. And your understanding of what English culture amounts to is severely limited and greatly flawed. Even I, an American, can see that. I don't think you have lived in England long enough to really know what English culture truly is, beyond your limited preconceived notions.

And as far as folk music is concerned, you've only been at it for four years. You are a neophyte. A beginner. Rather than trying to tell people who have been involved in folk music for many years, and some for many decades, how they should be doing it, you should be listening to what they have to say, learning from them, and thinking about it. You do have a great deal to learn. Far too much for you to be trying to tell others what they should or should not be doing.

Download these pages and print them out. It is a PDF file containing seven pages altogether, three pages of vocal exercises and four pages of instructions. I use them myself and they help keep my voice in good shape. Follow the instructions and practice them.

Vocal Exercises.

And again, record them as you practice them, then listen to them carefully. Keep the recordings so you can compare them and check your progress.

Go. And sin no more.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 31 Oct 08 - 08:49 PM

Admirably put Don. My hat is off and the remains of my forelock is duly tugged. You have a level of tolerance, restraint, patience and wisdom that I do not possess.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: s&r
Date: 01 Nov 08 - 04:11 AM

Hear Hear.

A well written piece that anyone who sings could learn from. This is a well considered post, researched and linked to valid sites. Please recognize that this is an attempt to help a learner: no petulance; no 'getting one over'; Please read it WAV. You don't get such good advice often in your life.

Stu

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 01 Nov 08 - 05:41 AM

From fleas in the Bible, thanks IB, to...

THE WEEKLY WALKABOUT, E.G.

Poem 116 of 230: MOSES GATE - SUMMER 2000

Bordering Bolton
    Lies land with lodges -
Grassed and paved around,
    With decking built on.

As well as these lakes
    Of human-made kind,
Croal, Irwell, canal
    Meet there like three snakes.

There's 'paths for horses,
    A birdwatching hut,
An info. centre,
    Plus walkers' courses.

And, surrounding these,
    The woods have grown thick,
So, viewed from afar,
    Form a sight to please.

From walkaboutsverse.741.com

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Stu
Date: 01 Nov 08 - 06:35 AM

You've got to start writing poetry again - this stuff is valueless. I mean priceless.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: catspaw49
Date: 01 Nov 08 - 07:04 AM

That first verse should be in a textbook as an example of the very worst attempt at poetry one could ever dream.

Your poetry sucks Franks, just like your Mommy........

Spaw

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Don Firth
Date: 01 Nov 08 - 01:47 PM

And that's IT from you, David? No comment? Just another one of your "poems?"

Well, okay. I tried.

I don't know why I bother, but I just went to David's MySpace site and, once again, listened to the songs he posted (how's that for masochistic!??) and came to the conclusion that he simply doesn't have the ear and / or the discrimination to judge his own singing and playing. He obviously doesn't have a clue about just how painful listening to him really is! If he had, he would never have put his efforts up on MySpace for all the world to hear. And writhe at!

He must be unembarrassable.

Well, no. That's not right either. He just doesn't know!

If others found what I posted above to be of value, then it was worth doing. I'm particularly fond of those two quotes. They pretty much delineate my approach to folk singing.

Thanks, guys!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 01 Nov 08 - 03:12 PM

LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

By Gawd...devastatingly memorable verse there, WAV. That should shut them up for a bit, right? ;-)

But will Don Firth be able to resist another in-depth attempt to reach your soul with a sincere and serious 1000-word essay and get you to see the light? That is the question. I'm on tenterhooks here.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 01 Nov 08 - 03:52 PM

Don (and LH - with his mind off Winona!) - "And that's IT from you, David? No comment?"...for what it's worth, I read every word, as usual, and agree with some, as usual. E.g., if I stuck to playing just the tunes for the rest of my days, as a folkie that would NOT be a bad thing, because that's how the majority of English trad. song and music has been performed over the centuries. Also, I think your drills would do some good but (with my limited time and, yes, capabilities) I'm better playing a line, singing a line, playing a line...because that also aids me with committing the tunes to memory - another strong aspect of our tradition...agreed?

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Don Firth
Date: 01 Nov 08 - 05:03 PM

". . . because that's how the majority of English trad. song and music has been performed over the centuries."

Really? Where did you get that idea?

"- another strong aspect of our tradition...agreed?"

Well, yes, I guess one could say that committing the tune to memory before trying to sing a song is kind of "traditional," yes. I believe that is what most people actually do. Kind of basic, really.

####

No, I don't think so, Little Hawk. I've spent far too much time already on what is obviously a lost cause. I've wasted too much time and too many words on David.

Back to working on my book, setting up my home recording studio, and practicing.

There are a couple of people around here who already have the equipment and want to record me, but I'd rather do it in my own time and in my own way. I will, of course, follow my own advice, and when I've recorded enough songs for a CD, I will have others, whose opinions I can trust to tell me the brutal truth if necessary, listen to what I record before I start burning CDs and/or posting stuff on sites like MySpace. I like Paul Burke's fable (above, at 29 Oct 08 - 08:49 a.m.) about Kieran and the leprechaun. I've been told that I'm hypercritical of my own performances, but I'd rather be that way than to put something out that that reeks.

I think this will be far better use of my time than trying to convince some half-wit that standing in the middle of the room wearing Groucho glasses and a lampshade on his head and farting bird calls is not really what one might call "high-class entertainment. . . ."

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 01 Nov 08 - 06:58 PM

"standing in the middle of the room wearing Groucho glasses and a lampshade on his head and farting bird calls is not really what one might call "high-class entertainment. . . ."

Surely it's all relative, Don....?

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 01 Nov 08 - 07:04 PM

Yeah. After all, if Shane were to do that among a group of his...peers...I'm sure it would draw raucous and enthusiastic applause.

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Don Firth
Date: 01 Nov 08 - 07:29 PM

None of my relatives, Smokey. (Well . . . there is my drinking uncle, of course. . . .)

Yeah, Little Hawk, it must be all in the delivery.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 01 Nov 08 - 08:13 PM

Well, and the audience...

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 01 Nov 08 - 08:40 PM

What I'm waiting for is some new poetry - if he found himself a girlfriend we may be blessed with a few sonnets.. imagine that..

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 01 Nov 08 - 08:52 PM

"Brace y'self Skippy!"

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Don Firth
Date: 01 Nov 08 - 09:26 PM

The boy stood on the burning deck;
He wished he'd never been born.
His father told him he wouldn't have been
If the condom hadn't torn!
                                       —BurmaShave?
                                          (probably not. . . .)

Don Firth

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 01 Nov 08 - 09:59 PM

This is the first time I've looked at this thread. To quote John from Hull, "Waht's this all about?" Looks like the principle objective is to harangue some poor, delusory, masochistic, low talent schmuck. Am I warm?

Subject: RE: The Weekly Walkabout (part 2.)
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 01 Nov 08 - 10:20 PM

It's an old English tradition, BWL.
Immigrants have to be assimilated, and this is how we do it.