BS: War in Georgia (2008)

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Lox
Date: 23 Aug 08 - 06:48 PM

Lunatics - and sharks?

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Riginslinger
Date: 23 Aug 08 - 08:14 PM

"The neocon agenda is global hegemony for the US and Israel."


                I would define it a global hegemony for Israel through the US.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Peace
Date: 23 Aug 08 - 08:40 PM

Horseshit.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Peace
Date: 23 Aug 08 - 09:02 PM

From the NY Post. Read it and fuckin' weep.


U.S. JEW HATERS
15 PERCENT ARE ANTI-SEMITIC
By NEIL GRAVES


November 2, 2007

Nearly 35 million American adults - 15 percent - hold views consistent with making them anti-Semitic, according to a survey released yesterday.

The Anti-Defamation League survey, conducted from between Oct. 6 and 19, also showed that 31 percent of Americans believe that Jews are more loyal to Israel than to America, and just over a quarter - 27 percent - believe that Jews were responsible for the death of Christ.

The survey showed that the nearly 35 million adults Americans who held views making them "unquestionably anti-Semitic" increased the rating 1 percentage point from the 14 percent of the 2005 survey.

In 1998, the number of Americans with hard-core anti-Semitic beliefs was as low as 12 percent.

However, the survey found that some stereotypes die hard. It said 27 percent of adult Americans still believe Jews were responsible for the death of Christ, down from 30 percent in 2005 but up from 25 percent in 2002.

It also said 15 percent believe Jews have "too much power in the U.S." - unchanged from 2005.

But what really riled Abraham Foxman, executive director of the ADL, was the 31 percent who believe Jews are more loyal to Israel than America, down from 33 percent in 2005 - but not enough, he says.

"Since we started the survey 40 years ago, that is one question that has never budged - one in three continue to say that," he said.

"This is very sinister. It is a classic anti-Semitic canard. They used it on Dreyfus in France, and Hitler used it. It is very serious."

On the other hand, Jews received high marks in questions that related to ethics and family.

Seventy-five percent said they believe that Jews provided an "emphasis on the importance of family life," 65 percent said that they "contributed much to the cultural life of America," and 55 percent said that Jews provided a "special commitment to social justice and civil rights."

In addition, the survey showed men are more likely than women to hold anti-Semitic views, particularly unmarried men without a college degree.

Foxman said that compared to Europe, the United States is a bastion of tolerance. In a survey earlier this year, half of the Europeans said they believe Jews are not loyal to their home nation.

neil.graves (at) nypost.com

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Riginslinger
Date: 23 Aug 08 - 09:18 PM

And that relates to the discussion how?

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Peace
Date: 23 Aug 08 - 09:23 PM

"The neocon agenda is global hegemony for the US and Israel."


I would define it a global hegemony for Israel through the US.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Peace
Date: 23 Aug 08 - 09:24 PM

And what the fuck does that have to do with a war in Georgia?

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Aug 08 - 09:53 PM

A lot of people in Israel (I'm talking about regular civilians and not members of the government) feel like the US is using Israel to accomplish its agenda more than the other way around. I don't have an opinion on which country is using the other more myself, but there are people in both countries who perceive the other country to be the one who is pulling the strings. Maybe it's some of both. Either way, the agendas of the governments of both countries are so much in lock step that it probably doesn't really matter all that much in the long run.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Riginslinger
Date: 23 Aug 08 - 11:11 PM

"And what the fuck does that have to do with a war in Georgia?"


                  It doesn't. I was simply responding to something somebody else posted. But please keep in mind, I was responding to the world the way I thought "neocons" understood it. Not the average American citizen. Paul Wolfowitz and Richar Perle come to mind.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: CarolC
Date: 24 Aug 08 - 12:40 AM

I think it might be productive to look at the whole question of loyalties from an entirely different angle, anyway.

To me it looks like what we have now is more like a franchise operation. The US, the UK, some of the former Soviet satellite countries, and Israel, all being franchises of a larger enterprise (an emerging global empire), and that the loyalties of those in power are to the larger enterprise rather than to their own individual countries. Of course, they no doubt think that what is good for the larger enterprise is also good for their own countries, so they probably don't see their loyalties as being divided at all. Others of us might tend to see things differently, because we see an inherent conflict between what's good for our own country and what the neocons think is good for the world.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Peace
Date: 24 Aug 08 - 12:44 AM

This is not at all about countries, imo. It is about rich people controlling economies. It is not specific to "The US, the UK, some of the former Soviet satellite countries, and Israel,". I would add citizens of China, Japan, the various oil countries: Qatar, Saudi Arabia and others. It is about money, about control.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: CarolC
Date: 24 Aug 08 - 01:19 AM

It's definitely about control. But the neocons in the countries I mentioned are working together on a collective goal that many of the citizens of their respective countries see as not being in their best interests. This is true for people in the US, the UK, and also in Israel. And now, I think that some of the people in some of the former Soviet satellite countries may be starting to see it as not being in their best interests either. And that is going to have a tendency to look to the ordinary citizens of those countries as being divided loyalties on the part of their leaders.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Peace
Date: 24 Aug 08 - 01:46 AM

Read this link, Carol.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Peace
Date: 24 Aug 08 - 02:00 AM

As a btw, I think that is the most important research on the www regarding the neocons and 'how' the agenda is being accomplished.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: CarolC
Date: 24 Aug 08 - 02:28 AM

This bit right here from that link gives me some pause...

The historical record does not support that position to any large degree but it has become the mantra of the socialist left and their cronies, the media.

If he thinks the media is a crony of the left, I think he's a seriously deluded person.


However, I don't disagree that there is certainly a group (or a collective of groups perhaps) that is pushing an agenda for global governance (and not a democratic type of global governance, either). But it looks to me like some countries are not a part of that agenda, and that in fact, some of them are resisting that agenda. Russia being one of those countries. Others being Iran, Venezuela, China, Cuba, North Korea and possibly Syria (there may be others as well, but they're not in the news right now).

It's because these countries are resisting being absorbed into the new world order that they are the subject of so much bellicose rhetoric from the governments of countries like the US, and also that the government of the US, with the help of its cronies, is arranging to try to break these countries up and/or dispose of their governments.

Which brings us back to what's been going on between the Russians and the Georgians, and the way the US has involved itself in that dispute.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 24 Aug 08 - 05:59 AM

From akenaton:

"Our lunatics will never stop 'till the whole world lies in ruins."

Our lunatics will never stop if we deliberately choose *not* to stop them.


"Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter." - Martin Luther King Jr.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Riginslinger
Date: 24 Aug 08 - 08:11 AM

I'm not sure how it relates to the War in Georgia, but I would agree that there are people out there who think that they can direct the course of the world simply by controlling capital. I think this has been demonstrated on a number of occasions, by directing funds from the World Bank or the International Monitary Fund. They seem to think that by gaining complete control of the world's capital, they can make world populations do whatever they want it to do.
                  It remains to be seen if these are just a few wing-nuts, are an orchestraded group of powerful players.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Ron Davies
Date: 24 Aug 08 - 10:52 AM

Good to know, Carol, that you never make an argument for or against anything. Since you obviously don't feel evidence is necessary. That of course might raise the question as to why it would be worth discussing anything with you. But I'm sure you have a good answer for that.

Naive Mudcatters like me actually always hope to learn something when we read posts. And without actual evidence it's hard to see what we might learn. Otherwise BS threads--at least political ones-- tend toward the waste of time category.

Maybe naive Mudcatters like me will finally learn that.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: CarolC
Date: 24 Aug 08 - 11:51 AM

It's easy to make straw men and then knock them down, as we can see in the above post. It takes effort to make a rational argument.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: robomatic
Date: 24 Aug 08 - 03:51 PM

Just don't go confusing a rational argument with anything that has anything to do with truth or facts. For that you need to have a positive relationship with reality.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: CarolC
Date: 24 Aug 08 - 04:13 PM

I'll keep that in mind.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: robomatic
Date: 24 Aug 08 - 05:03 PM

Putin in the Shadow of the Red Czar
By SIMON SEBAG MONTEFIORE
London

AT the center of Gori, Georgia, where every window has been shattered and Russian T-72 tanks patrol, the marble statue of the world's most famous Georgian — Josef Stalin — stands gleamingly, almost supernaturally unharmed.

As this vicious colonial war turns into an international battle over spheres of influence, Stalin is Banquo at the feast, metaphorically present in the palaces of the Kremlin, the burning houses in the villages, the cabinets of Europe's eastern capitals.

Today, as far as Moscow is concerned, the Georgian cobbler's son and Marxist fanatic has been laundered of any traces of Georgia and Marx. He is now a Russian czar, the inspiration for the authoritarian, nationalistc and imperial strains in today's capitalistic, pragmatic, swaggering Russia. In this crisis, and in who knows how many future ones, Stalin represents empire, prestige, victory.

When Vladimir Putin presented Russian teachers with their new textbook last year, Stalin appeared as "the most successful Russian ruler of the 20th century" — Peter the Great-meets-Bismarck. Stalin, the book gushes, expanded the empire further than any Romanov and created a Russian nuclear superpower. And his killings were a tool of necessary, if excessive, discipline. Recall that when America's World War II envoy to Moscow, Averell Harriman, congratulated him on the Red Army's taking of Berlin, Stalin fired back: "Yes, but Alexander I made it to Paris." Stalin liked to sit over dinner in one of his Abkhazian villas on the Black Sea, poring over maps: "Yes, we haven't done badly."

This was quite some leap for the Iosif Dzhugashvili, born in Gori in 1878. It is hard to describe how foreign Georgia is to Russia. It has its own history as an ancient kingdom under a thousand-year dynasty, its own literature and language as different from Russian as Cantonese is from English.

During one of their earliest rows, Mr. Putin — now the prime minister, but clearly a paramount leader — supposedly told President Mikheil Saakashvili of Georgia, "Thanks for giving us Stalin." In other words, in today's strange re-creation of Stalin, the imperial, victorious bits are Russian; the nasty bits must be Georgian. (Oddly, both men, who despise each other, have personal links to the Soviet dictator: Mr. Putin's grandfather was his chef; Mr. Saakashvili's aristocratic grandparents hid young Stalin from the czarist secret police.)

However valid some Russian grievances over Georgia may be (and some truly are), however flawed our Western record may be (and it is flawed) and however imperfect Georgian policies were (and they were impulsive), the fact is that Russia wants to dismantle Georgia, a democratic state that is worth saving for itself but also because it is the first domino of the Near Abroad.

History offers no neat repetitions, but Russia's power gambit in the Caucasus and challenge to the post-1991 order would be entirely familiar to Stalin. After World War II, Stalin seemed at the height of his prestige after years of revolution, terror and war — just as today Mr. Putin's Russia seems muscular and resurgent after the humiliations of the 1990s. Stalin had Eastern Europe; Mr. Putin has an imperium of oil and gas. And they share the same confident swagger combined with a feeling of seething resentment toward Western hypocritical sanctimony.

It isn't just a question of spheres of influence; it's about domination. Stalin remarked that his armies would impose his political system on Eastern Europe. Likewise, Moscow's Georgian invasion aims to remove American-style democracy, replacing it with Russia's strain of managed authoritarian politics. The Kremlin, then and now, is basically against anything that we are for.

If we are returning to cold war, the Berlin Crisis is the most useful precedent. Stalin tested the West in Berlin 1948 much as Mr. Putin is doing in Georgia today. Once again, in Georgia the daunting challenge for America is to maintain and restore a fragile entity, to defend a line, without going to war. Beleaguered Georgia will need American resolve, ingenuity and daring equal to that of the Berlin Airlift if it is to be restored.

In the Caucasus, Stalin literally wrote the book on imperial-colonial control: his "Marxism and the National Problem," commissioned by Lenin in 1912. In it, Lenin and his Georgian henchman offered ersatz rights of independence to the minority peoples of the czarist empire — which they would, of course, never be permitted to exercise. The Soviet Union was designed for Muscovite rule, not for division into independent republics. Yet the latter is exactly what happened in 1991 — and the Kremlin has never accepted it.

"Daddy used to be a Georgian," Stalin's son, Vasily, once said. Actually, the dictator didn't truly become Russian; he remained Georgian culturally. Yet he embraced the imperial mission of the Russian people. He designed the Soviet Union using his knowledge of Caucasian ethnic feuds to create republics within republics, including Ossetia and Abkhazia, as Russia's Trojan horses, and they have outlived Stalin's great project.

I've spent a great deal of time in the Caucasus since 1991, having met with all three Georgian presidents, always analyzing the longstanding Russian game of undermining and controlling Georgia by Stalinist means. Russia's recent policy of encouraging rebel skirmishing in South Ossetia and offering Russian passports to its citizens was a classic trap. As colonial puppeteer and successful restorer of Russia as imperial superpower, Mr. Putin is Stalin's consummate heir.

Stalin was equally expert in annexations justified as protecting ethnic Russians — think eastern Poland, Bessarabia and the Baltics in 1939. Today's rhetoric of protecting Russian citizens is both genuine and Stalinist doublespeak: after all, some Ossetians have only been Russian citizens for a few weeks. Ukraine, on the other hand, really is half-Russian. Few in Kiev should be sleeping soundly.

While most know the young Stalin was a seminarian, few realize that he was also a Georgian patriot, a published romantic poet. (Curiously, his enemies deprecated him as Ossetian; in truth his father was of Ossetian descent but the family was long since Georgianized.) Yet he found it impossible to be both a Marxist internationalist and a Georgian nationalist. In 1904, he was accused of heresy by top Bolsheviks and made to humiliatingly renounce Georgian nationalism. Driven out of Georgia for leading bloody bank robberies, he referred to it as a "parochial swamp." In 1921, he engineered the Red Army's invasion and annexation of the newly independent Georgia. His vengeance perhaps continues.

Georgians mourned Stalin at his death. When Nikita Khrushchev denounced him in 1956, Georgians rioted. Yet today Georgia has embraced pro-Western democracy, while the Russian rehabilitation of Stalin is best illustrated by those tanks parked protectively beside the white marble temple around the humble birthplace of Iosif Dzhugashvili. This is what Vladimir Putin meant in 2005 when he said that the fall of the Soviet Union was "the greatest geopolitical catastrophe" of the 20th century. And what the poet Yevgeny Yevtushenko meant when he warned, "Double, triple the guard in front of this tomb, / Lest Stalin should ever get out." Perhaps it's too late.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: CarolC
Date: 24 Aug 08 - 05:53 PM

Talk about not having a good relationship with reality.

Both South Ossetia and Abkhazia have a history that precedes Stalin by many centuries.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Ron Davies
Date: 25 Aug 08 - 09:42 PM

"It takes effort to make a rational argument".   Bingo.

And I'd be curious to know how somebody who is against requiring evidence plans to make a rational argument. It must demand a lot of creativity and imagination, and must be a very useful skill--especially for a politician, for instance.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Riginslinger
Date: 25 Aug 08 - 09:49 PM

Politicians rarely use evidence, look at Barack Obama!

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Ron Davies
Date: 25 Aug 08 - 10:26 PM

Evidence of that statement, please, Rig. Otherwise your statement also becomes a waste of time to read.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Riginslinger
Date: 25 Aug 08 - 11:35 PM

He doesn't use evidence!

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: CarolC
Date: 25 Aug 08 - 11:48 PM

Like I said... it's easy to create straw men and then attempt to knock them down. It's easy to put words in other peoples' mouths and make up stories about what they have said. It's not in the least bit honest to do that, but it's a lot easier than making any kind of legitimate argument.

Please show me where I ever said I "never" make and argument for or against anything. Or even that I'm against requiring evidence for my arguments. When that task is completed, I will answer the rest of it.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: beardedbruce
Date: 26 Aug 08 - 01:27 PM

Washington Post:

Next Steps on Georgia

As Russia violates the cease-fire it signed, there's plenty the United States can do in response.

Tuesday, August 26, 2008; Page A12

ASTREAK of defeatist thinking about Russia's continuing occupation of Georgia has had it that there is little the West can do about the crisis, first because Moscow's cooperation is needed for more important matters, such as the containment of Iran, and second because the United States and Europe lack practical means of leverage over Vladimir Putin's regime. Several days ago we addressed the first part of this canard, pointing out that the "strategic partnership" that President Bush once sought to build with Mr. Putin has been little more than an illusion. Now, with Russian troops still dug in around the Georgian port of Poti in blatant violation of a cease-fire agreement, it's becoming urgent to reexamine that second assumption about Western impotence. Fortunately, it, too, is groundless: There is, in fact, much that could be done to raise the cost of the ongoing occupation and to weaken Mr. Putin and the sinister circle around him.

The reason Russian troops are still blockading Georgia's largest port, planting mines along its railroads and stopping traffic on main road arteries is that Russia has yet to accomplish its central objectives: to depose Georgia's president and destroy Georgia's fragile democracy. The United States and its allies can still prevent that from happening, if they act quickly and energetically -- and thereby inflict an endgame defeat on Mr. Putin. Mr. Bush's order that U.S. ships and planes deliver humanitarian aid to Georgia was a good first step. But what's needed now is a large and conspicuous supply and reconstruction operation that will ensure that the Russian occupation cannot cause a collapse of the Georgian economy. Promised international observers -- which Moscow agreed to -- must meanwhile be deployed as quickly as possible, to keep Russian forces from staging provocations that might lead to further fighting.


The Russian economy, dependent on Western investment and technology, has already suffered a sharp reversal thanks to the invasion: Foreign currency reserves plummeted this month as investors withdrew money from the country at the fastest rate since the 1998 ruble crisis. Steeped in nostalgia for the ways of the Soviet Union, Mr. Putin may be insensitive to Russia's vulnerability to the pressures the U.S. Treasury can apply in 21st-century capital markets. But the corrupt circle of oligarchs around him, who have deposited billions in Western banks and bought up mansions and soccer teams, could quickly and legitimately be squeezed. There is certainly no reason why U.S. and international agencies should not vigorously pursue the numerous allegations of corrupt practices by Russian firms. If Kremlin-connected companies violate Georgian or international law through their actions in the occupied provinces of South Ossetia and Abkhazia, their assets -- gas stations in the United States, for example -- could be subject to seizure.

The Bush administration, we're told, is planning to withdraw a nuclear cooperation agreement with Russia from Congress. It retains the options of abrogating the bilateral U.S.-Russian agreement needed for Moscow's membership in the World Trade Organization and suspending negotiations on arms control. If Mr. Putin does not comply with the cease-fire agreement in the coming days, such bilateral sanctions will be needed. In the meantime, the administration should be working hard to ensure that Georgia's government and economy emerge stronger from the crisis -- and that Russia realizes it will only be weakened by its continuing occupation of a neighboring nation.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: CarolC
Date: 26 Aug 08 - 03:50 PM

'KHETAGUROVO, South Ossetia (Reuters) - Georgian troops arrived Khetagurovo on August 8 in a storm of steel and bullets, killing eight people and badly damaging the village of ethnic South Ossetians.

When they left two days later, harried by the Russian forces that crushed Tbilisi's bid to restore control over its breakaway region, locals say their took four prisoners with them and forfeited any chance of reconciliation.

Passions were still running high when Thomas Hammarberg, a European human rights official, arrived in the village on Sunday to witness the release of two Georgian tank crew as a goodwill gesture by the Ossetian authorities.

"Why are you releasing these bloody Georgians if they don't release my husband who is held hostage there?," village book keeper Rita Bestayeva shouted at Hammarberg, the Council of Europe's Human Rights Commissioner.

Russian soldiers held angry villagers at bay as the two Georgian servicemen -- captured when Russian troops retook the village -- were whisked away in a car in the direction of Georgia, a gesture Hammarberg said he would use his influence to push Tbilisi to reciprocate.

"I know that it is very difficult for people in this village to accept that those two prisoners have been released," he told reporters during a break in the visit, which was closely chaperoned by the Russian military.

"I respect their reactions but I am convinced that this is a way to secure that those people missing from this village come back as soon as possible," he said.

What remains of Khetagurovo, set in the hills of South Ossetia amid orchards and vineyards, bears the marks of war and the buildings still standing are pockmarked with shrapnel and bullets.

The conflict has left a lasting legacy in the minds of those like pensioner Yuza Khasiyeva, who saw one neighbor lying in his courtyard killed by a shrapnel head wound and another elderly resident lying dead.

The village is surrounded by a ring of ethnic Georgian villages inside South Ossetia, but asked if the two communities could live together after the latest conflict, she snorted:

"Are you mad? It's better to die than live with them."

"My grandparents told me that in the 1920s they were already killing us, so what we see now is already a third wave of their terror against the Ossetians."

Ossetians say they were a target of ethnic cleansing in the years of Georgia's short-lived independence after the collapse of the Russian empire in 1917. They backed Russia's Bolshevik rulers when they moved to retake Georgia in the early 1920s.

The region broke from central Georgian control in the early 1990s with the breakup of the Soviet Union, and book-keeper Bestayeva agreed reunification was now out of the question.

"There can't even be any talk of it. This is the third wave of genocide. Enough is enough."

Hammarberg's convoy drove through destroyed ethnic Georgian villages but did not stop in the largely deserted settlements.

"What I can see here now is the result of the madness of war," Hammarberg told reporters after surveying the damage to the South Ossetian capital of Tskhinvali earlier.

"What happened here, a couple of weeks ago, shall never be repeated because this is an insult to people's human rights," he said after being shown around the so-called Jewish Quarter, a section of the town damaged by Georgian shelling.

In Khetagurovo, housewife Ofelia Dzhanyeva said she had lost her brother during the war in the early 1990s when South Ossetia threw off Georgian control, and after the latest conflict nothing would induce Ossetians to accept Tbilisi's rule.

"None of the Ossetians is even thinking of reconciliation with Georgia now," she said. "In 1991 our children turned into refugees. Now they have grown up to defend their homeland."'

http://www.reuters.com/article/GCA-Georgia/idUSLO45165720080824?pageNumber=1&virtualBrandChannel=0



'Congratulations to Timothy Giannuzzi. He has provided the most even-handed and insightful commentary on the Georgian crisis I have read so far. President Mikheil Saakashvili of Georgia was indeed "monumentally foolish" in invading South Ossetia. The media and western governments have avoided trying to justify Saakashvili's action.

At the heart of the matter is Russia's fear of being isolated by NATO. As NATO grows in strength, so does Russian paranoia. Russia is understandably upset at Poland agreeing to host part of a U.S. missile defence system. Let's be fair. How would the U.S. react if Cuba agreed to host a Russian missile defence system?

In 1943, I was one year old when my parents fled from the Soviet invasion of Estonia, so I am particularly sensitive to maintaining peace along the Russian periphery. Sabre-rattling is not the answer. Russia has been invaded many times and has always shown extraordinary determination and courage when tested to the limit. If you want to convert this generally amiable "bear" into a fierce beast, corner it and make it feel threatened. The better approach would be to treat the Russians with the respect they are due, seek compromise and try to understand why history has made them what they are.'

http://www.canada.com/calgaryherald/news/letters/story.html?id=95de5b1a-8663-4c93-8068-c82f8a3ec2cf

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Donuel
Date: 26 Aug 08 - 05:13 PM

thank you for your various extensive history of Georgia that you took the time to post here.

You may rest assured now that Cindy McCain is being dispatched to Georgia in order to acess the situation of the survivors and casualties.
Dick Cheney is soon to follow.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Ron Davies
Date: 26 Aug 08 - 09:56 PM

"Opinion and speculation do not need evidence". No problem. As long as all parties realize that the Scheuneman theory as of now, is totally baseless---since no evidence has been provided. It's just somewhat amazing how many people seem eager to salute the article cited as a wonderful brilliant explanation--when, so far there are precisely zero facts to support it.

It is in fact a conspiracy theory--as is recognized even by the author--who even acknowledges the idea is "diabolical". To call it a conspiracy theory is only offensive to somebody so supersensitive as to read "ad hominem" into any criticism, even obviously justified.

And, as noted earlier, opinion and speculation--with the caveat that no evidence is required--mean that anybody trying to actually learn something about the topic is wasting time.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Ron Davies
Date: 26 Aug 08 - 09:59 PM

"He doesn't use evidence". Examples please. Or is this remark another great special straight off the shelves of Smears R Us?

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: CarolC
Date: 26 Aug 08 - 11:45 PM

I reiterate:

Please show me where I ever said I "never" make an argument for or against anything. Or even that I'm against requiring evidence for my arguments. Or perhaps it won't be possible to do that since the accusation that I said that was a complete fabrication in the first place.


It astonishes me that I would need to explain this to a fully grown adult, and an educated one, no less...


spec·u·late --

a: to meditate on or ponder a subject : reflect b: to review something idly or casually and often inconclusively


opin·ion --

1 a: a view, judgment, or appraisal formed in the mind about a particular matter b: approval, esteem2 a: belief stronger than impression and less strong than positive knowledge b: a generally held view


ar·gu·ment --

a: a reason given in proof or rebuttal b: discourse intended to persuade

http://www.merriam-webster.com/


Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: CarolC - PM
Date: 23 Aug 08 - 01:34 PM

Evidence is only needed when one is saying that something is fact, or making an argument for or against something. Opinion and speculation do not need evidence. If someone feels that he or she has a right to dictate how other people discuss their opinions and speculations, that person has an unhealthy need to control others.


As we can see, I said that evidence is not needed for opinion and speculation. This is because one of the reasons people are speculating and stating opinions on the subject in question (instead of making arguments about it one way or another) is because there aren't enough facts available to make an argument. If there was enough evidence for to make an argument, people would be making an argument instead of speculating and/or offering opinions.

In my case, however, I didn't do any of these three. All I did was post an article that I found interesting, which is another thing altogether.

However, any observant person who has taken any time at all to read any of my posting history knows that I have no problem with making arguments when I feel I have enough facts available to me to do so, and that I do so regularly.

So I would suggest spending some time learning the difference between speculation, opinion, and argument, and then learning how to discern when people are doing one or the other of these things (or none of them).

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: CarolC
Date: 26 Aug 08 - 11:50 PM

And by the way, I notice the person who has been calling the speculation about the article I posted "conspiracy theory" hasn't offered even one shred of evidence that the article isn't true.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 27 Aug 08 - 12:03 AM

Ron Davis seems to be playing his own version of the Monty Python argument sketch. Or is it the cheese shop?

I keep expecting him to say him to say he's been deliberately wasting our time. :-D

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Riginslinger
Date: 27 Aug 08 - 12:16 AM

"And, as noted earlier, opinion and speculation--with the caveat that no evidence is required--mean that anybody trying to actually learn something about the topic is wasting time."


                      No edivence!

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 Aug 08 - 05:35 PM

He is wasting your time, Jack. But I don't think it's deliberate. He just can't help himself. ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: GUEST,Sawzaw
Date: 28 Aug 08 - 04:31 PM

Not to worry, O'bama is going to fix it according to Amos.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 28 Aug 08 - 05:30 PM

Most of world population does NOT support Russia in Georgia:



Asian alliance rebuffs Russian plea for support

By OLGA TUTUBALINA and PETER LEONARD, Associated Press Writers
Thu Aug 28, 2:26 PM ET



DUSHANBE, Tajikistan - China and several Central Asian nations rebuffed Russia's hopes of international support for its actions in Georgia, issuing a statement Thursday denouncing the use of force and calling for the respect of every country's territorial integrity.

A joint declaration from the six-member Shanghai Cooperation Organization also offered some support for Russia's "active role in promoting peace" following a cease-fire, but overall it appeared to increase Moscow's international isolation.

Russia's search for support in Asia had raised fears that the alliance would turn the furor over Georgia into a broader confrontation between East and West, pitting the U.S. and Europe against their two main Cold War foes.

Russian President Dmitry Medvedev had appealed to the Asian alliance, which is made up of China, Russia and four ex-Soviet Central Asian nations, for unanimous support of Moscow's response to Georgia's "aggression."

But the alliance, which was created in 2001 to improve regional coordination on terrorism and border security, opted to take a neutral position and urged all sides to resolve the conflict through "peaceful dialogue."

"The participants ... underscore the need for respect of the historical and cultural traditions of each country and each people, and for efforts aimed at preserving the unity of the state and its territorial integrity," the alliance's statement said.

None of the other alliance members joined Russia in recognizing the independence claims of Abkhazia and South Ossetia.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Riginslinger
Date: 28 Aug 08 - 07:49 PM

Putin is now saying that the Bush administration provoked the war in order to benefit McCain in the election.

             If that's true--and that's a really big if--then the Bush administration is responsible for Obama choosing Biden.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Lox
Date: 28 Aug 08 - 07:59 PM

Well, be he innocent or insolent, Putin is claiming that he has evidence that American personnel were involved in the Georgian attack on South Ossetia.

He is saying in unambiguous terms that there seems to be some kind of link in his view between this crisis and McCains attempts to get himself elected.

Why the implicit interest in th US election?

Is Obama a commie? (... don't bite ... okay ...)

Which government will be first to collapse under the pressure?

Sakashvilli?

Putin (medvedev)?

or McCain Bush and Son?

What does Putin gain by making this accusation?

And if Obama wins - does that mean Putin works with a US government he trusts?

Why is putin saying what he is saying?

If it's just about power, expansion and anti american posturing, then why the apparent endorsement of Obama?

My mind boggles trying to understand where Putin is coming from.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Donuel
Date: 28 Aug 08 - 08:05 PM

He says this to warn and intimidate that his mafia like control of the movement of Oil is critical to him.

He is sabre rattling to prevent any intervention to Russias OIL TRADE route to Europe.

70,000 barrels flow through Georgia until the only railroad bridge blew up mysteriously and the pipeline terminal that statrs in Turkey and goes through Georgia also exploded.

Russia can hold Europe energy hostage with control of every path that oil and gas take to get there.

He threatens to mobilize troops to Poland if the US unilaterally keeps sending missles to within 90 miles of Russia.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Lox
Date: 28 Aug 08 - 08:05 PM

I forgot to add ...

... and what evidence is he talking about?

We in the west, especially American voters, need to see it.

Such claims require the production of evidence.

He's made the claim now so there's no turning back or holding back left.

... I'll be keeping my eyes open ...



here's the BBC link.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Teribus
Date: 28 Aug 08 - 08:51 PM

Well folks can we all stand back and take a good look at how things unfolded. Here is the time line:

August, 01

* 08:00 A van carrying six Georgian policemen was blown up by Osettian separatists near Eredvi-Kheti north from Tshinvali on the by-pass road connecting mainland Georgia with Didi-Liahvi valley populated by Georgians. Five out of six policemen were severely wounded. The government of Georgia decided not to hunt the culprits in order not to escalate the situation.

August, 02

*Six civilians and a policemen were wounded by light arms fire from the territory of South Osettia controlled by Russian peacekeepers. This shooting followed the night artillery shelling of Georgian villages inside South Osettia.

*Later that day the Georgian villages Zemo Nikozi, Kvemo NikoziNuli, Avneri, Eredvi and Ergneti got under heavy mortar fire from the Osettian separatists. At first Georgian policemen were shooting back, but then held fire after the order from Tbilisi aimed not to escalate the situation.

August, 03
*In all the Russian media the massive anti-Georgian propaganda has been launched.

*12:00 The separatist government of South Osettia announced evacuation of more than 500 residents including 400 children.

*13:00 The separatist government appealed to volunteers across the whole Russian North Caucasus to mobilize.

August, 04-05

*During two days the Georgian villages were under constant fire from the separatist territories controlled by Russians.

August, 06
*16:00 The separatists rejected the Georgian offer of negotiations and refused to meet with the Georgian special secretary T. Yakobashvili who arrived in Tshinvali for finding a solution for the conflict.

* Later on the Georgian main national TV channel Mr. Yakobashvili announced that the Georgian government was seeking direct negotiations with the separatist authorities in order to tackle the violence in the region and avoid the escalation of the conflict. The separatists refused to negotiate again.

*20:00 The separatists started mortar fire on Georgian villages Eredvi, Prizi, Amneri, Dvani and Nuli. Trying to defend lives of civilians, Georgians returned fire. As the result of whole night heavy cross fire, two soldiers from the Georgian battalion of Joint Peacekeeping Forces were wounded. The separatists reported of their wounded too.

*Despite provocative attacks on civilians, policemen and Georgian peacekeepers, the Georgian government decided not to use heavy artillery in order to avoid casualties among civilians.

August, 07

*09:00 In his interview to Russian media agencies, the leader of separatists E. Kokoity vowed that all the Georgian soldiers who do not leave the territory of the South Osettia would be "cleansed out". The mentioned soldiers were the Georgian peacekeepers legally deployed in South Osettia alongside Russian peacekeepers.

*09:45. A Russian jet bombed the Georgian radar near village Shavshvebi, about 30 km (20 miles) from South Osettia inside proper Georgia.

*15:00. The separatists again refused to negotiate with the Georgian special secretary T. Yakobashvili, who again arrived in Tshinvali for negotiations. .

*16:00. The separatists resumed shelling of Georgian villages Nuli and Avneri.
* Three Georgian soldiers wounded after separatist attack on their armoured carrier, two of the attackers killed and two severely wounded.

* Later the Georgian checkpoint at Avneri was bombed causing several servicemen and civilians dead.

*18:30. Trying to lessen the tension

Now August 7th was when Georgia was supposed to have unleashed this terrible (unprovoked) assault on the completely innocent population of South Ossetia. Everybody please note that at this stage nothing, absolutely nothing had happened with regard to Abkhazia.

Now let's see exactly what unfolded, remembering of course that both South Ossetia and Abkhazia were integral parts of Georgia as ceeded by the former Soviet Union as being parts of the independent state of Georgia. Hey folks please note none of these folks ever bothered disputing their "claim" to independence while the good ol' communists were in charge of things - any explanations for that Ake? I mean life must have been so great under the red flag and the inspiring message of universal communist brotherhood - off course they did not dispute their claim to independence then mainly due to the fact that if they had they would have been massacred in toto. Doubt that people and "fellow travellers" - then tell me me exactly why there is not an independent Chechnya, Dagetstan and Moldova - Tell you why apologists for totally unjustified, naked aggression - that would actually harm the modern day "Soviet" Russia.

Simple statement to who ever wins the next Presidential Election in the United States of America - Put Putin in his place or else you internationally are going to be toast.

PS Yanks being top dog is not a popularity contest.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Lox
Date: 28 Aug 08 - 09:11 PM

Well putin needs to give us evidence now.

His reputation and the credibility of the pro Russian perspective seems to ride on it.

Russias timing has been at least opportune. The attack on Georgia during the olympic opening ceremony ...

... and then this ... an attack on McCain on the night when Obama triumphantly takes his place as the Democratic candidate.

And how does it affect the election?

Does it make people question McCain?

Or does it make Obama look like he's got Putin in his camp?

Who looks sleazier?

Is it all just a big taunt?

Evidence please Vladimir.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: CarolC
Date: 28 Aug 08 - 09:23 PM

I'd like to see some documentation for that timeline. I can't find it anywhere.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: CarolC
Date: 28 Aug 08 - 09:24 PM

The US withdrew from the ABM treaty and since that time has been doing other things that Russia quite correctly perceives as a threat to it's national security. I think any questions about Russia's motives need to be viewed in light of these facts.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Riginslinger
Date: 28 Aug 08 - 09:37 PM

"He is saying in unambiguous terms that there seems to be some kind of link in his view between this crisis and McCains attempts to get himself elected."

                   Call it unambiguous, but I didn't hear McCain's name mentioned, only that it involved the course of the American election. That could mean a number of things, like Obama having to take a more militant position in the election.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: CarolC
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 12:03 AM

Here's a more complete timeline than the one in the above post...

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: CarolC - PM
Date: 18 Aug 08 - 05:52 PM

On March 31, 2008 a South Ossetian police post near the village of Okona in the Znaur District was attacked by a group armed with guns and grenade launchers. Military observers from the Joint Peacekeeping Force and the OSCE mission established that the shots were fired from an area controlled by Georgia. Two days before the shooting, Georgian police task force and security officers dressed as civilians had been seen in the vicinity.

On April 2 another armed group fired automatic weapons at a South Ossetian Defense Ministry checkpoint near the village of Andzi-si. The servicemen at the checkpoint did not return fire.

A total of 56 incidents of ceasefire violation by Georgian forces were registered by the Joint Peacekeeping Force in April 2008. Most of them involved random shooting with the purpose of fueling tension in the region.

On May 14 President of South Ossetia Eduard Kokoity said the Georgian special services were planning a terrorist attack in the territory of the self-proclaimed republic against Georgians and Georgian peacekeepers.

On May 15 Captain Vladimir Ivanov, an aide to the Joint Peacekeeping Force commander for contacts with the media, announced a planned rotation of the peacekeeping contingent in South Ossetia. Georgian media then spread information about an alleged expansion of the Russian peacekeeping contingent in the conflict zone, quoting Georgia's foreign minister. A routine rotation was described as a "provocation" and a "reckless enterprise."

On July 3 as Dmitry Sanakoyev, head of the 'alternative' Georgian-backed government of South Ossetia, was driving across the republic to Batumi to attend an international conference, his car was struck by a mine and fired at from the direction of local villages. Sanakoyev's bodyguards returned fire. The shooting went on for several minutes. Three of the guards were severely injured. Sanakoyev himself was unscathed. South Ossetian Interior Minister Mikhail Mindzayev said that the attack on Sanakoyev was orchestrated by Georgia to provide a pretext for invading the self-proclaimed republic.

On July 7 the police in Russia's Southern Federal District detained four military men from the Georgian Defense Ministry in the village of Okon, South Ossetia's Znaur District. Officials of the breakaway region of South Ossetia claimed the detained men were pursuing intelligence activities in the Tskhinvali region. Georgian President Mikheil Saakashvili considered the detainment a hostage situation. On July 8, the detainees were released.

On July 9, Russia's Foreign Ministry issued a statement concerning the aggravated situation in the Georgian-Abkhazian and Georgian-Ossetian conflict zones, which said that "For the past several days, the situation in the Georgian-Abkhazian and Georgian-South Ossetian conflict zones has intensified. The city of Tskhinvali has been shelled by the Georgian army, with victims registered among civilians. Fighters and unmanned aircraft of the Georgian Air Force have repeatedly violated the conflict territorial air zones. In a terrorist attack, a South Ossetian police officer was killed. Georgian military set up a post at a strategic site near the village of Sarabuki. Additional military equipment was moved from Georgia into the conflict zone without any coordination with the Joint Peacekeeping Forces, which was registered by military observers including by the OSCE mission in Georgia. These actions point to an open and planned aggression against South Ossetia, which is the internationally recognized side in settling the conflict."

On August 1 and 2, the tension in the Georgian-South Ossetian conflict zone was aggravated due to a massive shelling of Tskhinvali's residential districts, which led to numerous deaths among civilians, with six South Ossetians killed and 15 wounded. Georgia claimed this was a response to South Ossetia's gunfire on Georgia's territory. South Ossetia began evacuating the region's residents to North Ossetia, with 2,500 people leaving their homes during the two days after the shelling.

On August 6, South Ossetian President Eduard Kokoity said he would take "the toughest measures" toward "militants firing at the villages." Previously, the breakaway region's Defense Ministry reported that the Georgian side started sniper fire at the South Ossetian villages of Mugut and Didmukha in the Znaur District at around 12:00 p.m. According to South Ossetian sources, the Georgian special forces attempted to occupy Nul Height to gain control over the Znaur road and the South Ossetian villages located along the road. In the afternoon, it was reported that an aggressive battle was taking place at the village of Nul.

Irina Gagloyeva, head of South Ossetia's Committee for Information and the Press, told RIA Novosti that South Ossetian units had forced the Georgian military units out of Nul Height.

Georgia's Interior Ministry, however, denied the reports.

According to the South Ossetian Interior Ministry, on August 7 Georgia started ground fire and shelling of the South Ossetian capital Tskhinvali from the village of Nikozi. Then, according to Tskhinvali, the shelling and shooting at the South Ossetian village of Khetagurovo was started from the Georgian village of Avnevi. About 10 people were killed and another 50 received various wounds. The Georgian media, however, reported that the South Ossetian side had been shelling the Georgian villages of Avnevi and Nuli for three hours. According to the information of the Joint Peacekeeping Forces in the conflict zone, it was the Georgian side that started firing first. Also, there were reports that Russian peacekeepers were fired on.

On August 8 Georgia started military operations in the Georgian-Ossetian conflict zone.