BS: War in Georgia (2008)

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: CarolC
Date: 13 Aug 08 - 02:30 PM

*someone keeps saying

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Aug 08 - 02:31 PM

"some people pretend to care about human rights, but they really only do so when it helps their agendas."

Yeah. ;-) That is the standard routine just about everywhere and with just about everyone (specially politicians and political commentators). It's an old story. If drawing attention to crime and injustice serves their cause, they will yell about it all the livelong day. If it doesn't, they will either ignore it or deny that it is even happening or make excuses for why it should be happening.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Aug 08 - 02:36 PM

For both sides to stop would obviously be the wise (and humanitarian) thing to do.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: gnu
Date: 13 Aug 08 - 02:51 PM

Yo.... GUEST... re your post :

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Aug 08 - 02:34 PM

If you don't provide details in that post like I just did for yours, piss off.

It's just common courtesy and common sense. I don't have your kind of time. Be a little more thoughtful, please.

Of course, if you cannot, yer just an asshole troll.

Oh yeah, could you at least pick a name so we know who is... you know.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: CarolC
Date: 13 Aug 08 - 03:03 PM

Perhaps it's ethnic cleansing of the South Ossetians that Georgia (and the US) has in mind.

As I said, There is a huge difference between raising the possibility of something and making an accusation. I'll explain how it works for those who don't understand English. "Perhaps" means that something is possible. An accusation would be someone saying someone did do something or is doing something. Raising the possibility that someone might be doing something is not an accusation. It is only speculating about the possibility.

This is why I haven't commented on Russia's accusations that Georgia has committed genocide, and I won't unless I see independent verification of it.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: CarolC
Date: 13 Aug 08 - 03:07 PM

I was watching a video of a Russian government official that I found rather interesting. He was saying that the government of Georgia and western countries like the US are trying to draw comparisons with the Russian government of today and Stalin. He found that highly ironic in light of the fact that Stalin and one of his top generals were both Georgians.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: pdq
Date: 13 Aug 08 - 03:16 PM

This may sound like a repeat but here goes: North Ossetia, South Ossetia and Abhkazia are internationally recognised as regions within the sovereign country of Georgia. These areas were part of the old Soviet Union and the boundries were freely negotiated around 1990. Russia signed the agreements as did the newly-created government of Georgia.

If changes in these territorial boundries must be made, they will be made by free negotiations, not by military force of subversion. Russia: go home.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Stringsinger
Date: 13 Aug 08 - 03:24 PM

John McCain's accomplice has ties to Georgia's oil. Scheunemann Helped U.S. Firm Win Georgian Energy Deals While Lobbying For Georgia's NATO Membership
Randy Scheunemann is a registered representative of the Government of Georgia in the United States. Accordingly, Mr. Scheunemann has developed a very close relationship with President of Georgia Mikheil Saakashvili and many senior Georgian officials. The WSE team has also begun negotiating possible deals with the Georgian state-run oil company, National Oil Company of Georgia, to assist in the development of Georgia's hydrocarbon industry.

It's about oil again! Bush is there.

Frank

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: CarolC
Date: 13 Aug 08 - 03:31 PM

South Ossetia fought a civil war with Georgia and won. I think the South Ossetians have something to say about whether or not they are a part of Georgia. They want Russia to help them maintain their independence from Georgia. If they want Russia to remain in South Ossetia for this purpose, that's their right. Nobody has a right to force them to remain a part of Georgia if they don't want to, any more than Russia had a right to force Georgia to remain a part of Russia.

People who deny the right of South Ossetia to break away from Georgia, but who uphold Georgia's right to break away from Russia are engaging in hypocrisy.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: pdq
Date: 13 Aug 08 - 03:49 PM

...from a reasonable authority:


"The independence of South Ossetia is not recognized by any other international organization or country, who regard the region, formerly an autonomous oblast within the Georgian SSR, an integral part of the Georgian state. The previous independence referendum, held by the South Ossetian separatists on January 19, 1992, failed to gain any international recognition, since it occurred in the atmosphere of post-war chaos and violated the territorial integrity of the Republic of Georgia recognized by the international community within the borders of the Georgian SSR."

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: CarolC
Date: 13 Aug 08 - 04:08 PM

It doesn't matter whether or not South Ossetia's independence from Georgia has any international recognition. What matters is what the South Ossetians recognize.

And by the way, what the South Ossetians want is to unite with North Ossetia, which is an automomous republic in the Russian Federation. They have every right to do this if that's what they want.

If some people think that only some peoples have a right to independence and others don't, they are engaging in hypocrisy.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Aug 08 - 04:16 PM

You're arguing like a lawyer, pdq. A lawyer argues for the written letter, but not the spirit of the law. This is okay if you think that laws written down by someone on a piece of paper are more important than people's real concerns and human rights, and more important than reality. It's hypocritical in the extreme.

It is the foundation of most political chicanery and hypocrisy.

The reality, regardless of who the hell in the world officially recognizes what about South Ossetia, is that the South Ossetians do not want to be part of Georgia, they have fought for independence from Georgian and won it, they have been openly attacked by Georgia now, and Georgia is in the wrong to have done that. If the majority of the South Ossetian population wants to leave Georgia and join Russia, you have nothing to say about it and the USA has nothing to say about it, because it's none of your business. It's their business.

The Georgians blew it. Tough. They made a serious error.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: GUEST,Ron Davies
Date: 13 Aug 08 - 04:21 PM

From Wikipedia:   "In December 1990 the Supreme Soviet of Georgia abolished the autonomous Ossetian enclave....Violent conflict broke ouat towards the end of 1991, during which many South Ossetian villages were attacked and burned as well as Georgian houses and schools in Tskhinvali, the capital of South Ossetia...As a result approximately 1,000 died and 100,000 ethnic Ossetians fled the territory and Georgia proper."

To be continued

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Teribus
Date: 13 Aug 08 - 04:48 PM

CarolC – "People who deny the right of South Ossetia to break away from Georgia, but who uphold Georgia's right to break away from Russia are engaging in hypocrisy."

Can you tell us all exactly when it was that Georgia "broke away" from Russia? The USSR was made up of a number of independent republics – Georgia was one of them. When the Communist System in Russia collapsed the Republics were free to go their own separate ways. The borders of the United Soviet Socialist Republic of Georgia were determined by the Communists sometime around 1921, Abkhazia and South Ossetia lay within those boundaries. I asked earlier if the wishes and desires of the Ossetian people meant anything to the Russians, why was there never a United Soviet Socialist Republic of Ossetia? If the cause being supported by Russia is so laudable why did they not support the Ossetians in Georgia in 1990? When the circumstances were exactly the same? Oh wait a minute they weren't oil was not $115 per barrel, Russia was exporting very little of it and the BTC Pipeline had not been constructed. I supposed Chechnya will get "Independence" next Eh?

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Riginslinger
Date: 13 Aug 08 - 05:01 PM

They should learn from Kosovo and move a bunch more Russians into South Ossetia, and then vote for independance. Later, they can vote again to join Russia.

                The west seems to like that arrangement.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: pdq
Date: 13 Aug 08 - 05:16 PM

Actually, they may have done something similar. They gave away Russian citizenship to any Ossetian who wanted it. That way the Russian tanks can be said to be protecting Russian citizens from those big bullies in Georgia. Sounds a bit like Hitler claiming to be protecting enthnic Germans from persecution in Poland. Slightly updated scam, but similar.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: CarolC
Date: 13 Aug 08 - 05:33 PM

Georgia doesn't have a very long history of being and independent state within the boundaries it now occupies. There was a kingdom of Georgia from the 11th century until the 15th century, which broke up into several kingdoms and principalities in the 16th century. From 1918 to 1921, there was an Independent Republic of Georgia. After the break up of the Soviet Union, Georgia simply declared its independence. The current Georgia has existed since 1991.

Georgia is in no more of a position to force South Ossetia to remain a part of Georgia than Russia is to claim Georgia as a part of Russia.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: CarolC
Date: 13 Aug 08 - 05:45 PM

By the way, here is some background on Abkhazia...

http://www.economist.com/world/europe/displaystory.cfm?story_id=11670692

http://www.reliefweb.int/rw/rwb.nsf/db900SID/RMOI-6BT2W3?OpenDocument

"In 1992, Abkhaz separatists and Georgian national army began a war that lasted two years, with sporadic violence continuing until 1999, displacing all ethnic groups within Abkhazia. Both militaries were responsible for targeting the other's ethnic population by burning villages and destroying buildings and farm land. According to the Soviet government census of 1989, the pre-war population in Abkhazia was 525,000, 45% of which were classified as ethnic Georgians and 18% classified as ethnic Abkhazians. Post-war Abkhazia is 80-90% ethnic Abkhazian with the rest comprised of a mixed Abkhaz-Georgian population and some 30,000 Georgians on the border who return for harvesting during times of security.

While the numbers of displaced people is controversial and disputed by both sides, some conclusions have been reached. The largest number of displaced were ethnic Georgians. In addition, between 1992 and 1993 approximately 75,000 Russians and 75,000 Armenians fled to Russia, while close to 15,000 Greeks returned to Greece after centuries in Abkhazia. Ethnic Abkhazians also became internally displaced during the prolonged conflict."


The people who fled to Russia, Albania, and Greece were not necessarily fleeing from Abkhazians. Most likely, they were simply fleeing the conflict area.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Donuel
Date: 13 Aug 08 - 05:51 PM

THANK GOD THANK GOD

We were getting tired of AlQada anyway,
now Russia as our good old cold war enemy (with some really GOOD nukes) should whip us all back into submission to our Republican war machine Via the only true miltary master JOHN MC CAIN"T.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 13 Aug 08 - 06:17 PM

It suddenly occurred to me to ask what may seem an impertinent question, but I assure you I am genuinely curious as to the response.

Can any of those who favour the secession of all these East European enclaves tell me what their reaction would be if the same thing happened in their own neck of the woods?

How about if Alabama seceded from the US, or Cornwall declared independence from the UK?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: pdq
Date: 13 Aug 08 - 06:31 PM

"...favour the secession of all these East European enclaves..."

Do you mean the ones who have left and are happy, such as Bulgaria, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Romania, Slovakia and Slovenia, or do you mean the unhappy areas which can't leave such as Chechnya?

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 13 Aug 08 - 06:32 PM

Big lesson seems to be that Russia is energy independent, but USA not, and that if it be true that USA's modern military machine could defeat the Russian military machine, the USA either cannot or will not (maybe because of energy fears) use it. The looks like Russia rolls out over the rest of Asia and Europe to me until the Chinese stop it if they can.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 13 Aug 08 - 06:44 PM

""Do you mean the ones who have left and are happy, such as Bulgaria, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Romania, Slovakia and Slovenia, or do you mean the unhappy areas which can't leave such as Chechnya?""

Whatever!

But it does make me wonder whether the Americans here would consider that Alabama should have the same right to self determination that they would advocate for, say Chechnya, or is it only right when it's happening to the "other side"?

Ditto, the Brits. Should Cornwall have the right to freedom from UK rule?

I assure you, it's a serious question, not trolling for controversy. I am wondering where our conception of the rights of others runs out of steam, and more importantly WHY?

Don T

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Riginslinger
Date: 13 Aug 08 - 07:04 PM

An independent Cornwall, I like it!


                  But Alabama tried that twice before. The first time they had to deal with US Grant, and the second time they had to deal with MLK Jr.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: pdq
Date: 13 Aug 08 - 07:14 PM

Don T...No way to answer the question in general terms since each piece of inhabited land has a different history.

The following statement may be contoversial, but I believe it would be best for the Muslim population of Chechnya to find a friendly country and move. People can get up and go, land cannot. The Jews moved about five million people to Israel where they can live next to people who have things in common. They are able to feel safe and in control of their own future. The geographic location of Chechnya make it nearly impossible for Russia to give it up.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: CarolC
Date: 13 Aug 08 - 09:03 PM

I don't think I would have too much problem with my state seceding from the US. Might be a big improvement.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 13 Aug 08 - 09:52 PM

Georgia President calls down McCain (and Bush).

Here he is on Olbermann's show.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: bankley
Date: 13 Aug 08 - 10:34 PM

Is it getting Cold in here... or is it just me ?

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 13 Aug 08 - 10:43 PM

The Jews moved about five million people to Israel where they can live next to people who have things in common.
???????????????????????????????????
???????????????????????????????????
???????????????????????????????????

Is that why they are trying to kick the original inhabitants out?

I think they moved 5 million people into Israel because they think that God said that they should do that.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: pdq
Date: 13 Aug 08 - 10:48 PM

"God said that they should do that."

Nope, wrong again. It was the United Nations. Please read a book. Nite, y'all.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 13 Aug 08 - 10:55 PM

>>"God said that they should do that."

Nope, wrong again. It was the United Nations. Please read a book. Nite, y'all.<<

Nope, that's wrong. I have read The Book.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Paul Burke
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 03:27 AM

I think it was Woodrow Wilson who said, after America had advocated the rights of small nations, that he hadn't realised that there were so many small nations. Where ruling elites base their popular appeal on lazy and stupid nationalism, there is bound to be oppression of minorities, and those minorities will assert their own identity. Often in mirror- image stupidity. See Tutsi/ Hutu. It's a folk version of divide and rule, and why I don't listen to Balkan folk music any more. That exciting, off-beat tune might be carrying words like Let's Kill Next Door's Kids Because Their Ancestors Beat Us In 1356.

In the conflict in question, it's clear that the Georgian state (in business since 1991) has failed to acknowledge its ethnic and social diversity, and that this has been one of the sources of the present conflict. It's also unclear why Saakashvili thought it necessary to occupy the South Ossetia by force just now, and that his action shows very clearly why such a country should not be in NATO. Or rather, if they join NATO, why Britain should leave- NATO should not be not just an extension of American foreign policy.

Though the Russians are clearly making an example of Georgia, I don't think Ukraine should be too worried, apart from buying plenty of warm clothes for the winter. It's too big and too accessible from the west, though Russia might well use democratic methods backed up by economic pressure to reassert influence. It's up to the EU and America to counter the economic pressures, and give the people there a modicum of prosperity bto defend.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: GUEST,Ron Davies
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 06:09 AM

More from Wikipedia:

Not only did violent conflict break out towards the end of 1991, but when 100,000 South Ossetians fled, most "crossed the border into North Ossetia", that is, into Russia proper.





It's more than a bit of a stretch to read Sudetenland into the current crisis. People who vote with their feet make their view quite clear--except perhaps to those brilliant foreign policy analysts who are prisoners of their own Manichean world view and so clueless that they, for instance, mistake GWB for Churchill and do not recognize Bush's Iraq propaganda campaign. (To pick two purely theoretical examples.)

As Paul has pointed out, the other former members of the Soviet sphere of influence are plenty big enough to give Russia pause. To anybody who reads, it's plenty clear who the majority of South Ossetians see as the long-term aggressor. And it's not Russia.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: beardedbruce
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 07:50 AM

More Georgian agression...


Georgia: Russians move into Gori, explosions heard
Thursday, August 14, 2008 11:23:24 AM
By CHRISTOPHER TORCHIA

Explosions were heard near Gori on Thursday as a Russian troop withdrawal from the strategic city seemed to collapse. A fragile cease-fire appeared even more shaky as Russia's foreign minister declared that the world "can forget about any talk about Georgia's territorial integrity."

The declaration from Russian Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov came simultaneously with the announcement that Russian President Dmitry Medvedev was meeting in the Kremlin with the leaders of Georgia's two separatist provinces.

"One can forget about any talk about Georgia's territorial integrity because, I believe, it is impossible to persuade South Ossetia and Abkhazia to agree with the logic that they can be forced back into the Georgian state," Lavrov told reporters.

At least five explosions were heard near Gori. It could not immediately be determined if the blasts were a renewal of fighting between Georgian and Russian forces, but they sounded similar to mortar shells and occurred after a tense confrontation between Russian and Georgian troops on the edge of the city.

The strategically located city is 15 miles south of South Ossetia, the separatist region where Russian and Georgian forces fought a brutal five-day battle. Russian troops entered Gori on Wednesday, after the two sides signed the cease-fire that called for their forces to pull back to the positions they held before the fighting started.

Georgia early Thursday said the Russians were leaving the city, but later alleged they were bringing in additional troops. Georgian government officials who had gone into the city for a possible handover left unexpectedly around midday, followed by a confrontation at a Russian checkpoint on Gori's outskirts that ended when Russian tanks sped toward the area and Georgian police forces retreated.

Some Georgian police said irregular fighters from South Ossetia had refused to leave Gori, where a BBC reporter saw them looting and burning Wednesday night.

The first of two planned U.S. aid flights arrived in the Georgian capital of Tbilisi late Wednesday, carrying cots, blankets and medicine for refugees displaced by the fighting. The shipment arrived on a C-17 military plane, an illustration of the close U.S.-Georgia military cooperation that has angered Russia.

Besides the hundreds killed since hostilities broke out, the United Nations estimates 100,000 Georgians have been uprooted; Russia says some 30,000 residents of South Ossetia fled into the neighboring Russian province of North Ossetia.

Gori was battered by sporadic Russian bombing before the cease-fire, with Russia saying it was targeting a military base near the city. The city, on Georgia's only significant east-west road, is only 60 miles west of Tbilisi.

The Russian troops' presence in Gori was viewed as a demonstration of the vulnerability of the capital.

Russian troops also appeared to be settling in elsewhere in Georgia.

An APTN camera crew saw Russian soldiers and military vehicles parked Thursday inside the Georgian government's elegant, heavily-gated residence in the western town of Zugdidi. Some of the soldiers wore blue peacekeeping helmets,others wore green camouflage helmets, all were heavily armed. The scene underlined how closely the soldiers Russia calls peacekeepers are allied with its military.

"The Russian troops are here. They are occupying," Ygor Gegenava, an elderly Zugdidi resident told the APTN crew. "We don't want them here. What we need is friendship and good relations with the Russian people."

Georgia, bordering the Black Sea between Turkey and Russia, was ruled by Moscow for most of the two centuries preceding the 1991 breakup of the Soviet Union.

Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice was flying Thursday to France and then to Tbilisi to reinforce U.S. efforts to "rally the world in defense of a free Georgia."

"This is not 1968 and the invasion of Czechoslovakia where Russia can threaten a neighbor, occupy a capital, overthrow a government and get away with it. Things have changed," Rice said in Washington on Wednesday.

The Russian General Prosecutor's office on Thursday said it has formally opened a genocide probe into Georgian treatment of South Ossetians. For its part, Georgia this week filed a suit against Russia in the International Court of Justice, alleging murder, rape and mass expulsions in both provinces.

More homes in deserted ethnic Georgian villages were apparently set ablaze Wednesday, sending clouds of smoke over the foothills north of Tskhinvali, capital of breakaway South Ossetia.

One Russian colonel, who refused to give his name, blamed the fires on looters.

Those with ethnic Georgian backgrounds who have stayed behind -- like 70-year-old retired teacher Vinera Chebataryeva -- seem increasingly unwelcome in South Ossetia.

As she stood sobbing in her wrecked apartment near the center of Tskhinvali, Chebataryeva said a skirmish between Ossetian soldiers and a Georgian tank had gouged the two gaping shell holes in her wall, bashing in her piano and destroying her furniture.

Janna Kuzayeva, an ethnic Ossetian neighbor, claimed the Georgian tank fired the shell at Chebataryeva's apartment.

"We know for sure her brother spied for Georgians," said Kuzayeva. "We let her stay here, and now she's blaming everything on us."

Pointing to her broken door, Chebataryeva said Ossetian soldiers broke into her apartment and started firing at the Georgian tank from her windows.

North of Tskhinvali, a number of former Georgian communities have been abandoned due to the intense fighting of the last few days. "There isn't a single Georgian left in those villages," said Robert Kochi, a 45-year-old South Ossetian.

But he had little sympathy for his former Georgian neighbors, whom he accused of trying to drive out Ossetians. "They wanted to physically uproot us all," he said. "What other definition is there for genocide?"

------

Associated Press writers Misha Dzhindzhikhavili in Tbilisi; Mansur Mirovalev in Tskhinvali, Georgia; Jim Heintz in Moscow and Anne Gearan in Washington contributed to this report.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Teribus
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 07:57 AM

Now please feel free to correct me if I am wrong here but it was the Russians who sent troops into South Ossetia to protect what it views as it's citizens from attack from Georgian Government troops. Georgian troops having retreated and withdrawn completely from South Ossetia were then pursued into Georgia "proper" where the Russians claimed to be "demilitarising" areas from which any future attack may occur. After which they will hand over control of those areas to Georgian authority.

Now all that is understandable, but can anybody explain why Russian Forces undertaking these operations within Georgia feel the need to be accompanied by South Ossetian "Militias"??

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 08:02 AM

One would have to be totally insane or profoundly stupid to want Georgia to join NATO with its current President. Since he campaigned in 2004 on a platform of reigning in the breakaway republics it would be like signing up for a shooting war with Russia. Why does George Bush want to break up NATO?

BTW Bruce, since that is an AP article couldn't you have made a link?

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: beardedbruce
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 08:11 AM

Jack,

I posted links before, and got comments how Georgia was at fault when the article said that Russia was advancing into Georgia proper after the ceasefire- I have to presume that some here have difficulty in actually reading linked aricles before commenting on them.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 08:19 AM

Then Bruce, you ought to be explaining these things and if you must, use the links to support your explanations.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: pdq
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 09:34 AM

Yesterday, in the midst of a minor brainfart, I included North Ossetia with Abkhazia and South Ossetia as Georgian territory while knowing full well that it was placed within Russia at the same time that Georgia was granted independence.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 09:46 AM

"NATO should not be not just an extension of American foreign policy"

That's all NATO ever has been, in my opinion. (although some of its members balk now and then...)

****

Now, here's some info about Mr Saakashvili. I have added some italics to one part:

"Mikheil Saakashvili was born in Tbilisi, capital of what was then the Georgian Soviet Socialist Republic in the Soviet Union, to a Georgian intelligentsia family. His father, Nikoloz Saakashvili, is a physician who still practices medicine in Tbilisi and directs a local Balneological Center. His mother, Giuli Alasania, is a historian who lectures at Tbilisi State University.

Saakashvili graduated from the School of International Law of the Kiev State University (Ukraine) in 1992. He briefly worked as a human rights officer for the interim State Council of Georgia following the overthrow of President Zviad Gamsakhurdia before receiving a fellowship from the United States State Department (via the Edmund S. Muskie/FREEDOM Support Act (FSA) Graduate Fellowship Program).

He received an LLM from Columbia Law School in 1994 and took classes in at The George Washington University Law School the following year. In 1995, he also received a diploma from the International Institute of Human Rights in Strasbourg, France.

After graduation, while on internship in the New York law firm of Patterson Belknap Webb & Tyler in early 1995, Saakashvili was approached by Zurab Zhvania, an old friend from Georgia who was working on behalf of President Eduard Shevardnadze to recruit talented young Georgians to enter politics. He stood in the December 1995 elections along with Zhvania, and both men won seats in parliament, standing for the Union of Citizens of Georgia, Shevardnadze's party."

It sounds to me as if Mr Saakashvili is a hand-picked agent of the US government, chosen by the US State Department and educated as a lawyer at Columbia, then sent back to Georgia to get elected and then manage that country on behalf of American policy.

I'm sure that's how the Russians see him...as a foreign-planted agent.

Imagine that. ;-) Now imagine a hand-picked Quebecois or Mexican lawyer educated in Moscow, chosen for a fellowship by the Kremlin, becoming the president of a newly independent Quebec, or a newly independent northern Mexico, and then declaring the area to be an enthusiastic ally of Russia. Imagine further that he launches an invasion of a separated enclave of Mexican-Americans or English-Canadians who successfully fought a war of secession in the early 90's because they didn't want to be part of the new Quebec or the new Northern Mexico nations.

Now you are beginning to get the picture of how Russia might look upon the situation in Georgia. How would the USA look upon either of the hypothetical situations that I have described above in Quebec or northern Mexico?

Why...the USA would go to war over it. At once! And so would Canada if it was Quebec that was involved. Furthermore, the war would not end with the mere rescue of the embattled separated enclave. It would end with the total military occupation of Quebec or Northern Mexico, and a regime change...and an end to the career of the Russian agent-elect in that region.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Donuel
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 09:57 AM

McCain has received about $200 thousand dollars in April 08 from the President of Georgia via a lobbyist. NO wonder he says we all are Georgians.
Where is my Georgian $




Russian and Georgian troops had a quirky friendly encounter today with all sorts of social interactions until one shot was fired in the seizure of a reporter's camera and 100s of journalists went running from the scene.




Finally Condi has a job she is trained for. Still its cute that she has to work through France to practice her craft of statesmanship with Russia.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Donuel
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 10:06 AM

bush plan to "ease" tension
http://www.reuters.com/article/politicsNews/idUSLD49893320080813



McCain is a Georgian http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/08/13/mccains-top-foreign-polic_n_118743.html

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 10:10 AM

I believe McCain is a "Georgian". I expect him to invade someone just as soon as he gets into office and has the power to.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Paul Burke
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 10:20 AM

Have the Russians reached Atlanta yet? Will Savannah be renamed Putingrad?

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 10:36 AM

Rather different, as those Eastern European and Caucasian nations were brought into the Russian Empire and the USSR by conquest.
"But it does make me wonder whether the Americans here would consider that Alabama should have the same right to self determination that they would advocate for, say Chechnya, or is it only right when it's happening to the "other side"?

Ditto, the Brits. Should Cornwall have the right to freedom from UK rule?

I assure you, it's a serious question, not trolling for controversy. I am wondering where our conception of the rights of others runs out of steam, and more importantly WHY?

Don T"

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Bobert
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 10:40 AM

The more I read about this situation the more I smell neo-con politics... I think that Dick Cheney ordered this up for the sole purpose of creating an opportunity for McWar to whip up a nationalistic lather here in the US while Obama was on vacation...

I think Russia, Obama and the American people have been bamboozled yet again by the neocons, the war profiteers and Dick Cheney...

BTW, I for one am not a Georgian and I do not support Georgian genocide...

Shame on Georgia and shame on the neo-cons...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 11:01 AM

Naturally. Dick Cheney calls up Saakashvili in the middle of the night, could you do me a favour? You see, there is Democrat we don't want to be elected, so would you mind stirring up a war for us, so we can whip up a nationalistic lather thus letting our boy win?

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 11:39 AM

Heh! Yeah, that would be a typical little ploy, wouldn't it?

I bet Saakashvili is beginning to regret his reckless behaviour. It is unfortunate that so many ordinary people have suffered on account of it.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Teribus
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 11:55 AM

From Little Hawks rather fanciful post.

"Now, here's some info about Mr Saakashvili. I have added some italics to one part:"

Point 1:
"Saakashvili graduated from the School of International Law of the Kiev State University (Ukraine) in 1992."

Question: Were there any others who did this at the same time? I cannot see how this qualifies him, or makes him a desirable candidate for recruitment as an agent, or a spy.

Point 2:
"He briefly worked as a human rights officer for the interim State Council of Georgia.........receiving a fellowship from the United States State Department (via the Edmund S. Muskie/FREEDOM Support Act (FSA) Graduate Fellowship Program)."

Question: Was anybody else ever offered a "fellowship" via this Program? Again, I cannot see how this qualifies him, or makes him a desirable candidate for recruitment as an agent, or a spy.

Point 3:
"In 1995, he also received a diploma from the International Institute of Human Rights in Strasbourg, France."

Question: Does this mean that he also a French agent, or spy?

Point 4:
"Saakashvili was approached by Zurab Zhvania, an old friend from Georgia who was working on behalf of President Eduard Shevardnadze to recruit talented young Georgians to enter politics."

Question: I take it from this that Eduard Shevardnadze is also an American agent, or spy. As of course Zurab Zhvania would have to be too.

Point 5:
"He stood in the December 1995 elections along with Zhvania, and both men won seats in parliament, standing for the Union of Citizens of Georgia, Shevardnadze's party."

Question: How did these men rig their elections? How did they know that they were going to win? Or was everyone who voted for them also agents and/or spies?

Point 6:
"It sounds to Little Hawk as if Mr Saakashvili is a hand-picked agent of the US government, chosen by the US State Department and educated as a lawyer at Columbia, then sent back to Georgia to get elected and then manage that country on behalf of American policy."

More Questions:

- On timeline LH how did the US Government know in 1992 that "The Rose Revolution" would take place in Georgia in 2003?

- Mikheil Saakashvili was not educated as a lawyer at Columbia, he had already graduated from Kiev in 1992, he studied for and obtained his Masters Degree in International Law at Columbia.

- "sent back to Georgia"? According to the Wikipedia entry you have "cut'n'pasted" He was invited back to Georgia by a fellow countryman at the behest of the President of Georgia. How does this get convoluted into his being sent back by the US Government?

- Timeline again Little Hawk, how did they (US State Department) get Mikheil Saakashvili on the list of potential candidates for the 1995 election? When he (Mikheil Saakashvili) left the USA and returned to Georgia, how did he (or the US State Department) know that he would be accepted as a candidate?

- Timeline, how did the US State Department know that Mikheil Saakashvili would lead the group who overthrew Eduard Shevardnadze? How did they know that after overthrowing Shevardnadze, he would be asked to lead? I mean let's face it, left school, studied in Ukraine, went to the USA, arrives back in December 1995. In 2003 he still must be relatively unknown in Georgia.

Very poor reasoning and complete and utter absence of logic.

My other question still stands:

Does anyone have any idea how the mighty Russian Army requires the assistance of South Ossetian militiamen inside Georgian territory??

I have got a pretty good idea as to why and what they are there for. I just want to hear some of the justifications put forward by the "fellow travellers".

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 12:16 PM

It's a possibility, Teribus. I figure that the Russians see it that way. I think you'd see it that way if the shoe were on the other foot, and he were a Russian-educated Latin American lawyer being put in charge of some part of Latin America. I think you would consider him to be an agent of Russia in that case.

I think he is an agent of the USA...or a willing servant, which amounts to the same thing.

Sure the Russians are after their own selfish gains here. They're playing at empire, same as the Americans. They both play that game all the time, and the Russians just scored a small victory in the game.

***

"Does anyone have any idea how the mighty Russian Army requires the assistance of South Ossetian militiamen inside Georgian territory??"

They don't require it. ;-) But why would they refuse it? They play dirty in war, same as the Americans do. The Americans were happy to use one set of Afghans to slaughter another set of Afghans and they were happy to use Montagnards against the Viet Cong and catholics against buddhists. This is standard opportunism, and both sides do it whenever and wherever they can. Their objective? Victory.