BS: War in Georgia (2008)

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 05:27 PM

"Russians are doing it in a hamfisted neanderthal way."

Agreed. Perhaps they are trying to imitate George Bush? ;-)

The USA has been clearly giving the world the message since 2001 that might is right and that he with the largest military in the world is absolutely free to attack whom he wants when he wants, regardless of legality, regardless of what the U.N. has to say about it, and even upon wholly spurious excuses (like WMDs that don't exist). Furthermore, he with the largest military has the right to torture prisoners and hold them in offshore facilities without trial or legal representation.

I'm sure Russia has learned a lot from watching the Bush administration's gentle approach to diplomacy in these last 7 years. (sarcasm)

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 05:33 PM

"My own opinion is that Russia is doing it to show Georgia (and its puppet master, the US) that Georgia is going to have to relinquish any claim on South Ossetia and Abkhazia whether it wants to or not. I think it is doing it to pressure Georgia to sign a non use of force agreement."

No, they are really doing it to show Georgia that they can't follow policies which Russia doesn't approve of.
S. Ossetia and Abkhazia are mere examples of that.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 05:36 PM

Yes - and it makes me a bit sick to see Bush and Rice enjoying their new found status as courageous diplomats.

America is being slightly less hamfisted.

I heard one US representative say scathingly " Russia is nothing ... it's saudi with trees" as a way of explaining why they would have no chance in a diplomatic struggle against America.

I believe Obama might be so much less hamfisted as to be considered Graceful.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 05:46 PM

I have to say that I also find carols point interesting regarding the need for a georgian non aggression pledge.

There seems to me to be no harm in the georgians agreeing not to attack Ossetia or Abkhazia again.

Nor does there seem to be any harm in Georgia accepting that the sovereignty of Ossettia and Abkhazia and their respective desires for self determination deserve to be given due attention and scrutiny.

Perhaps it is right and proper that Georgia accepts their right to coexist as independant political states.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: CarolC
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 06:33 PM

The US isn't being less hamfisted. It's just being a lot more covert in its hamfistedness. Any rhetoric on the part of the US government about "global partnership" is just a cover for what is really being done, which is the US attempting to bend the entire world to its will whether the rest of the world likes it or not.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 06:45 PM

Ssaakashvili sounded quite unhinged as he ranted today. Even Condi, standing beside him, had the grace to look a bit uncomfortable.

Thanks for the Strobe Talbot cut & paste, beardedbruce. I thought such lengthy clippings were discouraged in the non-music threads but it is a useful pointer to who does your thinking.

The US admin line on Kosovo, parroted by Talbot, has always been a travesty.

First there was no genocide inflicted on the Albanian muslims. Remember those figures that were being bandied around at the time? The US state department was talking about 250,000 dead Albanians IIRC, and the UK foreign secretary (Robin Cooke) used a more conservative figure of 150,000. So far about 3,000 bodies have been found, most of them Serbs.)

Second the Albanian muslims (in the main, refugees and economic migrants who got out of Albania proper in the Hoxhe years and earlier) had discriminated against the indigenous Serbs for years.

Third, all that stuff about Milosevic withdrawinig Kosovo autonomy is blatant hypocrisy. Tito granted it in 1974 - yes, the guy was human and made some mistakes. When Milosevic withdrew it, the IMF and the World Bank were delighted because they wanted to see strong central government. Can you imagine how the US admin would function if California, for instance, had a veto on federal policy-making?

Pdq, try applying your South Ossetia and San Diego logic to Kosovo. Russia, along with Spain and others, warned that sovereignty for Kosovo would open a can of worms. Now a chicken has come home to roost. And this time, joy of joys, there's fuck all that Uncle Sam can do about it except huff and puff.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: CarolC
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 07:04 PM

Some historical perspective...


"Up until now, this war was framed as a simple tale of Good Helpless Democratic Guy Georgia versus Bad Savage Fascist Guy Russia. In fact, it is far more complex than this, morally and historically. Then there are two concentric David and Goliath narratives here. The initial war pitted the Goliath Georgia--a nation of 4.4 million, with vastly superior numbers, equipment and training thanks to US and Israeli advisers--against David-Ossetia, with a population of between 50,000-70,000 and a local militia force that is barely battalion strength. Reports coming out of South Ossetia tell of Georgian rockets and artillery leveling every building in the capital city, Tskhinvali, and of Georgian troops lobbing grenades into bomb shelters and basements sheltering women and children. Although true casualty figures are hard to come by, reports that up to 2,000 Ossetians, mostly civilians, were killed are certainly believable, given the intensity of the initial Georgian bombardment, the wanton destruction of the city and surrounding regions and the generally savage nature of Caucasus warfare, a very personal game where old rules apply.

But you don't hear about this story from the Western media. Indeed, you hear little if anything about the Ossetians, who seem to hardly exist in the West's eyes, even though their grievance is the root cause of this war.

While Russia and America see the conflict in abstract terms about spheres of influence and protecting allies, for Ossetians, who still recall the centuries of massacres Georgians committed against them, it is highly personal. They will still recall the Georgian massacres in the early 1920s, when Georgia was briefly independent, which exterminated up to 8 percent of the Ossetian population. In 1990, when Georgia was again moving towards independence, the ultranationalist leader Zviad Gamsakhurdia abolished Ossetia's limited autonomy, leading to another Ossetian rebellion that was only quelled by a peace agreement signed by Georgia, Russia and the Ossetians. Gamsakhurdia was subsequently deposed, and Georgia's ethnic chauvinism was shelved until the rise of current president Mikhail Saakashvili in 2003."


http://mobile.thenation.com/docmobile.mhtml?i=20080818&s=ames2

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 07:10 PM

so did the chicken come home to roost in the can of worms? ...

Sorry ... I never was much good at politics ;-)

but seriously ...

I see partnership as meaning "don't buy a gun, get a lawyer!"

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: CarolC
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 07:14 PM

Partnership with the US means get a gun and use it on whoever we tell you to.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 07:15 PM

Interesting article Carol.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 07:32 PM

I'm not sure I agree with your last statement on partnership.

I think that neo-condoleezas words can be turned back on her.

I think the US needs the cooperation of the other G8 countries and wider international cooperation as much as russia does to function on the global chessboard/marketplace.

America can no longer afford to isolate itself either.

Especially now that europe is staarting to grow significantly in strength.

At the end of the next recession Europe will be seen to have weathered the storm the best and that includes countries like poland and the other old soviet block countries who will suddenly be in undreamed of positions of influence.

America and russia both require a strong partnership with Europe, as Europe does with them. Not to mention China.

There is an American tendancy sometimes, when criticizing themselves, to remain nonetheless in a self aggrandizing mindset.

This isn't all about US foreign policy, it is about Diplomatic jostling on the great global chessboard.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: CarolC
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 07:37 PM

I don't disagree with any of that. I was just giving the meaning of partnership with the US from the perspective of the current (and some former) administrations.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 07:49 PM

Just look at how smug and pleased with himself that yucky little Sarkozy is that he got to be the most important boy in assembly.

Gordon Brown and David Cameron are both looking on in envy.

And of course David Cameron is showing that he can talk tough too (puke)

Like a litle annoying terrier barking more aggressively so the other dogs might take him seriously.

We must apparently fasttrack Georgia's entry into NATO ...

... yes david ... that'll solve the problem ...

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Peace
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 07:50 PM

This, as with all recent wars, is not about ideologies per se. It is about money and who will control what aspect of the money market. Note the singular--market.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Bobert
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 08:06 PM

Bruce,

I started to read you first sorce and found lies right there in the first sentence...

You, my friend, are doing nothin' in the interent in truth... What you are doing is spreading propaganda...

All of a sudden Putin is the Devil???

Yeah, Bush and Cheney do love their boogie men...

Give us a break... Most intellegent people don't hacve to read thru reems and reems of propaganda to know which way the wind blows...

This war was started by the Unitied States and their puppets... That is the truth... Unless you can get that far then you are out of the intellegent discussion on why the US did it and what they must now do to fix it... Other than blow smoke up the posteriors of true believers...

B~

B~

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: pdq
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 08:21 PM

Peter K (Fionn),

Why do you expect an argument? I agree with everything you said about Kosovo and our betrayal of our Serbian allies. That was a monstrous crime by Madeleine Halfbright and "Worthless Willie" Clinton, our second worst president ever. When the news media said that a mass grave with 700 slaughtered innocent Kosovar Muslims was found which later proves to be 5 dead bodies, unidentifiable and probably Serb, the news media had an obligation to correct their disinformation. They did not.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 08:45 PM

"That was a monstrous crime by Madeleine Halfbright and "Worthless Willie" Clinton, our second worst president ever."

That's true, pdq, in my opinion. It was a monstrous crime. But I am sort of getting the impression that you always see these things primarily along old party lines that you are traditionally loyal to, regardless of the real circumstance.

In other words, when a Democratic administration does it, it's terrible. But when a Republican administration does it, well, then it's probably justifiable...and when a US ally (Georgia) does it, well then, it's even more justifiable. But when Russia does it! Then it's absolutely despicable...

I think you're having trouble being objective about certain war crimes and war criminals, because your own political loyalties are getting in the way of your ability to recognize them.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Bobert
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 08:53 PM

Yeah, we've hade 30 years of anti-human foriegn policies... This ain't about Dems or Repubs... It's failed vision stuck in a hampster wheel... We need a paradyme change which is not realted to political parties but founded on pro-human, pro-earth thinking and not US always getting our way...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 08:57 PM

Serbia, Allies?

Since when?

Haven't they always been close to the Russians?

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 09:03 PM

Yes, Jack, they have, as a matter of fact.

They fought the Germans in WWII, while the Catholic Croatians mostly were allied with the Germans against the Serbs. After the war, the whole area of what was called Yugoslavia aligned itself closely with the Soviets, but maintained political autonomy.

As soon as Yugoslavia broke up after Tito's death the West began playing the usual "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" games that all powers great and small always play, and the Serbs became the odd man out in that game as wars broke out between Serbs, Croatians, Bosnians, etc. Russia tended to favor the Serbs in those conflicts, the West tended to side against them.

Many wrongs were committed on all sides.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: pdq
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 09:21 PM

Liberal Squawk,

No, you are the one stuck on party line platitudes. My opinions are as diverse as anyone on Mudcat since I try to find facts. That is something that people with a science background must do. Philosophy majors believe that "truth" is on the side of the one who can use tha best wordplay and win an argument. They make good lawyers.

Albania stealing Kosovo from the rightful owner, Serbia, is equivalent to Russia stealing South Ossetia from the rightful owner, Georgia. Unhappy inhabitants who were given Russian citizenship should move to Russia.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 09:37 PM

Methinks LH, ye have hit a nerve. It is rare to see such a sharp scientific mind reduced to name calling.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: pdq
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 09:40 PM

"Serbia, Allies?

Since when?

Haven't they always been close to the Russians?" ~ JtS

Well, the United States helped Russia any way it could to defeat Nazi Germany. Serbia was the only Balkan country allied us. The Shah of Iran was a very important ally, his country having a huge border with Russia and warm water ports. The supply route that allowed Russia to defeat Germany went through Iran. Yes, Iran, Serbia, Russia and the United States were allies and essential in winning WWII in Europe.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: CarolC
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 09:42 PM

Ossetians are the rightful owner of South Ossetia. It has been their territory for many hundreds of years. Georgia forcing South Ossetia to be a part of Georgia would be like Russia forcing Georgia to be a part of Russia.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: akenaton
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 09:42 PM

Its also rare to see a "sharp scientific mind" supporting the neocons, Jack!

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 09:46 PM

LOL akenaton

Is this conversation is starting to border on the oxymoronic?

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Riginslinger
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 10:23 PM

"Albania stealing Kosovo from the rightful owner, Serbia, is equivalent to Russia stealing South Ossetia from the rightful owner, Georgia. Unhappy inhabitants who were given Russian citizenship should move to Russia."


                      pdq - I remember trying to make this point in a previous thread and was shouted off the internet.

                      I think the Kosovo example was even more sinister in that a huge number of Albanians moved to Kosovo for the specific purpose of wresting it away from Serbia.
                      When Serbia tried to chase the Albanians out, Bill Clinton, desparately needing an international event to change the dialogue in the American press, jumped in on the side of Albania. The rest is...

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Peace
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 10:26 PM

mystery.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Riginslinger
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 10:47 PM

...in fact!

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Peace
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 10:51 PM

Interesting to read this thread because what should be a simple matter of fact is resurrected as fact influenced by interpretation tinged with political 'view point' (read bias). And yes, I'm as guilty as the rest.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Riginslinger
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 11:04 PM

I suppose these things would be easy if somebody was 100% right, and the other party was 100% wrong, but...

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 11:30 PM

Rig, that promise is the entire appeal of the republican party.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: CarolC
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 11:43 PM

I definitely have a bias. I always come down on the side of the people who are fighting for their freedom, and against those who seek to subjugate them.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Peace
Date: 15 Aug 08 - 11:53 PM

And you do it well, Carol. Based on your view.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Little Hawk
Date: 16 Aug 08 - 01:08 AM

Okay, pdq, if you are gonna call me "Liberal Squawk", then I shall have to come up with a catchy nickname for you also. ;-) I'm thinkin'...

plainly demented qualifier...

partially dessicated quim...

pathetically deranged questioner...

perpendicularly delineated quartermaster...

Hmmm. Or how about something simple like...

"pigs don't quack"

I think Clinton was in the wrong. I think Bush is in the wrong. I think Georgia is in the wrong. And I think you're wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Riginslinger
Date: 16 Aug 08 - 01:09 AM

"Rig, that promise is the entire appeal of the republican party."


                Tina Turner would say: "What's the Republican Party got to do with it?"

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Peace
Date: 16 Aug 08 - 01:15 AM

I now understand what Bob meant when he said

"Oh God said to abraham kill me a son
Abe said man you must be puttin me on
God said no, abe said what
God say you can do what you wanna but
The next time you see me comin you better run
Well abe said where dyou want this killin done
God said out on highway 61
Well georgia sam he had a bloody nose
Welfare department wouldnt give him no clothes
They asked poor howard where can I go
Howard said theres only one place I know
Sam said tell me quick man I got to run
Oh howard just pointed with his gun
And said that way down highway 61
Well mack the finger said to louie the king
i got 40 red white and blue shoestrings
And a thousand telephone that dont ring.
Do you know where I can get rid of these things?
And louie the king said let me think for a minute son
Then he said yes I think it can be easily done
Just take everything down to highway 61
Now the 5th daughter on the 12th night
Told the first father that things werent right
my complexion, she says, is much too white
He said come here and step into the light
He said hmm youre right let me tell the 2nd mother this has been done
But the 2nd mother was with the 7th son
And they were both out on highway 61
Now the roving gambler he was very bored
Trying to create a next world war
He found a promoter who nearly fell off the floor
He said i never engaged in this kind of thing before
But yes, i think it can be very easily done
Well just put some bleachers out in the sun
And have it on highway 61"

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Little Hawk
Date: 16 Aug 08 - 01:29 AM

Yeah.

But do you understand what the song "Angelina" is about? Not "Farewell Angelina". Just "Angelina".

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Peace
Date: 16 Aug 08 - 01:38 AM

In so far as it is echoed in "Every Grain of Sand", yes.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: CarolC
Date: 16 Aug 08 - 01:44 AM

Here's another excerpt from the article I posted earlier that I think bears reading...

"The question we must ask is: Are we willing to risk war, including nuclear holocaust, in order to fulfill the aspirations of Mikhail Saakashvili? While Bush and McCain speak of Saakashvili as if he's a combination of Thomas Jefferson and Nelson Mandela, he's seen by his own people as increasingly authoritarian and unbalanced. Last year, Saakashvili sent in his special forces to violently disperse opposition protesters in the capital city, followed by a declaration of martial law. He sacked the opposition television station (partly owned by Rupert Murdoch), exiled or jailed his political opponents, and stacked the courts with his own judges while removing neutral observers, leaving even onetime neocon cheerleaders like Bruce Jackson and Anne Applebaum feeling queasy. Hardly the image of the "small democratic nation" that everyone today touts."


Hell, the US government and media tried to tear Hugo Chavez a new one just for not renewing the license of one of the TV stations in his country, and here we are propping up a guy who sacked the opposition TV station and exiled or jailed his political opponents.

In what way is this guy different from Putin? (Oh, yeah... he's willing to be our puppet.)

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Peace
Date: 16 Aug 08 - 01:53 AM

Saakashvili is purported to have won the election with 98% of the popular vote. I believe that. Right. Much like I believe that Hussein won with 100%. And Castro. And Stalin.

Democracy my ass. He's another fu#kin' dictator. But in this case, he's a dictator who is in Bush and Cheney's pocket.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Peace
Date: 16 Aug 08 - 02:23 AM

"Massive amounts of infrastructure will need to be rebuilt. Prices have already gone up significantly over the past two years, and inflation will likely increase as a result of the war."


Tell me, doesn't this sound like a job for










no, not Superman







no, not Batman and Robin







no not Spiderman









no, not Superwoman








but







bot









a Halliburton subsidiary?

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Peace
Date: 16 Aug 08 - 02:25 AM

Sorry. Was having a case of Deja Vu,


all over again!

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 16 Aug 08 - 06:18 PM

Oh, sorry odq. I just assumed. My apologies.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 16 Aug 08 - 06:24 PM

Er, pdq

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: pdq
Date: 16 Aug 08 - 06:38 PM

Peter K (Fionn),

Thank you for returning and reading my clarification.

BTW, if the US continues to have such an inconsistent foreign policy, we will gradually lose our alies because they will not trust us. Many need military and economic support and often get a lecture in "human rights" instead. It is quite difficult to insure everybody's "human rights" when your country isbeing invaded or your children are being killed in bomb attacks on their way to grade school.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 16 Aug 08 - 06:51 PM

>>>BTW, if the US continues to have such an inconsistent foreign policy, we will gradually lose our alies because they will not trust us. Many need military and economic support and often get a lecture in "human rights" instead. It is quite difficult to insure everybody's "human rights" when your country isbeing invaded or your children are being killed in bomb attacks on their way to grade school.

Amen to that.

With reference to the current situation in Georgia; Bush has been Promising them NATO membership; McCain is threatening to drop Russia from the G8. The President of the US, especially a presumptuous nominee such as McCain, has the authority to do neither. So these promises and threats are causing a lot of consternation among America's best allies.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: CarolC
Date: 16 Aug 08 - 07:00 PM

I think our foreign policy is perfectly consistent. Any country that the US sees as being a threat to our hegemony is our enemy. Anyone who is a friend of our enemy is our enemy. Serbia was a friend of Russia, and therefore our enemy. Anyone who is an enemy of our enemy is our friend. Georgia is an enemy of Russia, so they are our friend. It's as consistent and as predictable as it could possibly be.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Little Hawk
Date: 16 Aug 08 - 07:02 PM

"we will gradually lose our alies because they will not trust us."

Huh????? Fer Chrissake, they don't trust you now! ;-D (Except maybe for Israel.) The USA is one of the least trusted nations in the world, and I mean just about everywhere. Your allies are not allies out of a sense of trust, pdq, they are allies due to various almost inextricable financial and business ties that have been around ever since the end of WWII, if not longer. It's sheer pragmatism and the weight of the status quo, not trust.

Nor, of course, do they trust Russia. Nobody has much reason to trust either the USA or Russia.

Nobody trusted the Romans either...for the same reason. They were not trustworthy.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: akenaton
Date: 17 Aug 08 - 04:35 AM

I'm begining to feel quite optimistic about this forum.
I sense a new confidence from the old much maligned rebels.


"Mighty oaks from little acorns grow." Maybe its just coincidence but whenever Peter turns up we become "inspired"....Ake