BS: War in Georgia (2008)

Subject: BS: War in Georiga
From: GUEST,Sawzaw
Date: 08 Aug 08 - 10:52 AM

While you folks are sniffing about how bad it is in the US, War is breaking out in Georgia.

http://www.economist.com/world/europe/displaystory.cfm?story_id=11909324

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georiga
From: irishenglish
Date: 08 Aug 08 - 11:04 AM

Some of us Americans are capable of sniffing about how bad it is in the US while keeping an eye on news elsewhere, including an escalating situation in Georgia.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georiga
From: bankley
Date: 08 Aug 08 - 11:09 AM

I hope Atlanta doesn't get burned again, Miss Scarlet

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georiga
From: beardedbruce
Date: 08 Aug 08 - 11:12 AM

Obviously Obama's trip to Maui ( to meet with Paris H.?) is a far more significant topic, at least from the news reports.


Is there a Russian General named Shermanov?

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georiga
From: Wesley S
Date: 08 Aug 08 - 11:40 AM

Is there any oil there?

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georiga
From: Teribus
Date: 08 Aug 08 - 11:46 AM

One of the main oil pipelines from Azerbaijan runs through Georgia to the Black Sea.

Can't wait to hear how the "usual suspects", aided and abetted by Dennis Kucinich, put this one down to George W. Bush.

Serious? Extremely. Only one outcome that the countries of the region can accept - Russia removes its troops from Georgian soil.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georiga
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 08 Aug 08 - 11:59 AM

Actually, the Ossetians need the Russians there.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georiga
From: irishenglish
Date: 08 Aug 08 - 12:15 PM

Can't wait to hear how the "usual suspects", aided and abetted by Dennis Kucinich, put this one down to George W. Bush.

That's bull Teribus. But then again, I guess I'm just a stupid American ill informed about the world, and I'm one of those pinko commie types as well, just because I choose to vote and follow policies that are humanity based by and large. Of course, it all makes sense. The usual suspects, Dennis Kucinich and myself all blame George Bush for this despite the fact that Bush probably needs help finding Georgia on the map!

Guess I'm a usual suspect then for actually believing that this is a complex dispute between Georgia and Russia. Guess I'm a usual suspect for hoping this can stop before it gets worse. Another day in the life of a usual suspect.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georiga
From: jimmyt
Date: 08 Aug 08 - 12:19 PM

Take a deep breath and relax, Irishenglish. I don't think Teribus was singling you out. Also I bet George W can find georgia, just follow I 75 southand right after he crosses the Tennessee border, I will be there to meet and greet!

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georiga
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 08 Aug 08 - 12:35 PM

He has been to both, after all. Oddly enough, Georgia is probably the only country in the world absolutely in love with Bush. I politely turned down an invite from a Georgian to watch 6 hours of recroded newsreel from the visit.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georiga
From: greg stephens
Date: 08 Aug 08 - 12:45 PM

I'd put money on the Georgians. I did a gig with some Georgian dancers once, and they jumped up in the air waving swords, and landed back on the floor on the points of their knees. You try it!
People who can do that can do anything.
(Mind you, perhaps Russian dancers do that as well, I don't know).

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georiga
From: Wesley S
Date: 08 Aug 08 - 12:46 PM

Besides - We usual suspects all know that everything bad that ever happens is the fault of Bill and Hillary Clinton. And we've been covering it up for years......

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georiga
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 08 Aug 08 - 01:05 PM

The Ossetians dances are even more extreme, Greg, I've seen both.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georiga
From: Little Hawk
Date: 08 Aug 08 - 01:48 PM

It sounds like a typical regional conflict to me...the kind of thing that was very likely to happen here and there following the breakup of the Soviet Union and the separation of many of its formerly outlying border areas into independent states. I think the Russians and the Georgians have enough issues between themselves that they would be fighting right now even if George Bush had sought a career in baseball instead and the USA was a minor power on the level of, say, Ecuador...and had no influence in the area at all. The Americans will, of course, be interested in playing the situation for any advantage they can, but that's normal in great power politics.

On the other hand, maybe Liechtenstein is behind it all. ;-) They are capable of stirring up anything, those people, and they're rampant capitalists too!

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georiga
From: irishenglish
Date: 08 Aug 08 - 01:58 PM

Damn Liechtensteiners LH! Just remember my take over the world scheme involving St.Pierre and Miquelon awhile back>

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georiga
From: Little Hawk
Date: 08 Aug 08 - 02:04 PM

They are a constant worry. I think the only reason Bush hasn't spoken of it publicly is that he's so scared of them himself.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 08 Aug 08 - 02:18 PM

Irishenglish is right in thinking that this is a complex issue.
Here is some historical background.
The Ossetians are mainly Christians, descendants of the ancient Alans, who once ranged as far as France. Their language is part of the Proto-Iranian group (IIRC). The Georgian language is completely unrelated. Plenty of loanwords in both, because of a long, shared history.
The Alans/Ossetians were frequent allies of the Iberians/Georgians in their struggles against the Roman and Parthian empires, and, later, the Byzantines and Sassanians. They frequently intermarried and the Ossetian nobility was heavily influenced by their Georgian counterparts. This is best seen in the Georgianised surnames.
The Ossetians were the finest craftsmen and blacksmiths in the Caucasus. Ossetian swords and daggers were eagerly sought after, even in Byzantium.   
The Alan kingdom became one of the strongest in that part of the world under King Durgulel the Great. He married off one of his daughters to a Byzantine generral, the other, to the Georgian king. He was strong enough to meddle in international politics, and dictate terms.
After his death, the Georgian rulers and feudal lords attempted to take over the southern part of the Alan kingdom. A situation not unlike the Anglo-Scottish Border developed, with back-and-forth raiding, as well as large-scale campaigns. Douglases and Northumberlands!
Eastern Georgia later fell under Persian rule, but Ossetia manged to keep it's independence, which it fought for tooth-and-nail.
In 1774, Georgia and Ossetia fell under Russian rule, but it wasn't until 1830 that Russia had any real control over them.
Let's skip over to 1917. Georgia became independent and annexed Southern Ossetia. They suppressed Ossetian language and culture, carrying on even under Stalin, who turned a blind eye.

Mind you. I don't think that Russia really is acting with Ossetia's best interests in mind, but rather to show Georgia what they can expect for joining NATO. One can only wonder what lies in store for the Ukraine.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georiga
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 08 Aug 08 - 02:23 PM

The Americans are supporting the Georgians, because they can't abandon them, after convincing them of the benefits of joining NATO.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georiga
From: Little Hawk
Date: 08 Aug 08 - 02:27 PM

Fascinating stuff, Volgadon. Yes, I've heard of the Alans. They were very fine warriors with formidable cavalry.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georiga
From: akenaton
Date: 09 Aug 08 - 05:23 AM

Only 20 posts?

That must tell us something about somebody somewhere??????

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georiga
From: akenaton
Date: 09 Aug 08 - 05:27 AM

and would somebody please fix the thread title.....in case George can't find it on the map.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georiga
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 09 Aug 08 - 05:43 AM

Give them all a nice hot cup of tea and tell them to go home!

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georiga
From: Riginslinger
Date: 09 Aug 08 - 10:10 AM

Bush will probably send advisors there. They'll get off the plane in Atlanta and wonder what all of the fuss is about!

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georiga
From: Little Hawk
Date: 09 Aug 08 - 10:48 AM

LOL!

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georiga
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 09 Aug 08 - 12:38 PM

The lack of interest does seem significant as well as disturbing.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georiga
From: CarolC
Date: 09 Aug 08 - 01:15 PM

I find it interesting that the US supported Georgia's breaking away from Russia (because we believe in freedom and independence, after all), but we don't support South Ossetia's desire to break away from Georgia. I guess some people are more deserving of freedom and independence than others.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georiga
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 09 Aug 08 - 01:17 PM

And before this becomes a debate about US oil interests, oil is not a factor here. The broad picture is that Georgia wants out of the Russian circle of influence. They turned to the USA for their protectors and are joining NATO. Russia can't stomach the idea of a NATO presence on it's southern border. That is a lot closer than Cuba is to the States!
Enter South Ossetia. I've outlined some of the history in a previous post, so suffice it to say that Georgia has been trying to take Southern Ossetia over for centuries. The Ossetians are very independent and don't really want to be Georgian. The situation is a bit similar to Eastern Turkey.
Russia sees Ossetia as not only a good foothold in the Caucasus, but also as an excuse to teach Goergia a lesson about what you get for joining NATO. South Ossetia and Abkhazia both need Russian support to remain independant.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georiga
From: GUEST,Mike in DC
Date: 09 Aug 08 - 01:50 PM

You can find some background information here
.

Mike

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georiga
From: GUEST,Sawzaw
Date: 09 Aug 08 - 06:30 PM

Vive Le Québec Libre

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georiga
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 09 Aug 08 - 06:38 PM

Damned eastern europeans, always causing trouble!

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georiga
From: bubblyrat
Date: 10 Aug 08 - 06:23 PM

Apparently, there are some gas, oil, or both,pipelines that pass through Georgia, to western Europe, that are the only ones NOT to pass through some Russian territory. As such, they would,naturally, be of incalculable strategic importance to Nato and the Western Allies, including our dear American ( I mean that sincerely ) friends.Under the circumstances, one can readily see how the Russians would gleefully seize on ANY excuse to invade Georgia in order to hold us all to oil & gas ransom.Rest assured, they will do ANYTHING to get control of those pipelines !! The "Cold War " starts again !! ( maybe even a hot one ) . If ever there was a time for STRONG American leadership, it is NOW !!

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georiga
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Aug 08 - 06:54 PM

Well, south Ossetia already had de facto independence from Georgia since it won a war with that country in 1992. It was Georgia that invaded south Ossetia, not Russia. Russia entered the region in response to Georgia's invasion of it, to defend it from the Georgians. The south Ossetians do not want to be a part of Georgia. But the west apparently wants south Ossetia to be a part of Georgia, and the US has trained Georgia's armed forces, no doubt so that it can use them as proxy fighters for the US' quest to own everybody's oil.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georiga
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Aug 08 - 10:54 PM

Georgia, whose troops have been trained by American soldiers, began an offensive to regain control over South Ossetia overnight Friday, launching heavy rocket and artillery fire and air strikes that pounded the provincial capital, Tskhinvali.

In response, Russia, which has granted passports to most South Ossetians, launched overwhelming artillery shelling and air attacks on Georgian troops.

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/capress/080810/world/georgia_south_ossetia


Georgia heavily bombs a civilian population center, killing a couple of thousand people, wounding many more, and rendering thousands of people homeless (after being trained by the US)... Russia responds by targeting Georgian troops, and the US calls Russia the bad guy in this scenario. Hardly surprising, I suppose. In fact, I'd say it's pretty typical.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georiga
From: Peace
Date: 10 Aug 08 - 11:12 PM

"While you folks are sniffing about how bad it is in the US, War is breaking out in Georgia."


This life is filled with language.

The time of what you call sniffing is just the time of reflection. When it is put on the line, it is scary.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georiga
From: Peace
Date: 10 Aug 08 - 11:28 PM

Spetsnaz. It means 'Special Warfare Troops'. They are the equivalent of the Canadian "JTF2", American 'SEALS' or British 'SAS'. The attack on Georgia is disgusting. That's my opinion.


I point out that Canucks would decry that type of attack.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georiga
From: Peace
Date: 10 Aug 08 - 11:38 PM

I hope.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georiga
From: Little Hawk
Date: 10 Aug 08 - 11:45 PM

All great powers support independence movements when those independence movements are in line with their larger interests and objectives. They oppose similar independence movements when they are not in line with their larger interests and objectives.

This is true of Russia. It's true of the USA. Neither side is supporting who they are supporting out of altruism, they are doing it out of pragmatism.

For either of them to claim the moral high ground is ironic, to say the least. For the Georgians to claim the moral high ground is equally ironic, if not more so. They attacked South Ossetia first.

As for the Ossetians, I figure they have a right to decide whether or not they wish to be part of Georgia, and they seem to have decided some time ago that they don't want to be part of Georgia.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georiga
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Aug 08 - 11:48 PM

Russia didn't attack Georgia. Georgia attacked a civilian population center in South Ossetia. Russia defended the civilians of South Ossetia from the Georgian military.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georiga
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Aug 08 - 11:49 PM

crossposted

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georiga
From: Teribus
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 12:34 AM

Still trying to work out how Russia, as an interested party, was appointed the role of "neutral peacekeeper" in the province (that was always "Georgian" under the communists) that it seeks to absorb into Russia? Even to the extent of demonstrating that "neutrality" by handing out "Russian" Passports to the inhabitants. Strikes me as being a clear conflict of interest, but there again whoever could ever put forward the arguement that the UN ever knew what it was doing.

Bet the Ukrainians are feeling a tad nervous, as the spotlight will turn on them once Russia has taken what parts of Georgia it feels it requires to "feel safe". Maybe we will once again Europe will be informed that, "We have no further territorial ambitions".

Odds on increased applications for NATO membership anyone?

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georiga
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 01:16 AM

Doesn't really matter if Russia is an interested party or not. The South Ossetians gained their independence from Georgia just as Georgia gained it's independence from Russia and the Soviet Union. What the South Ossetians do with Russia is nobody's business except for South Ossetians and the Russians.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georiga
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 01:33 AM

Thousands of civilians have fled South Ossetia - many seeking shelter in the Russian province of North Ossetia.

"The Georgians burned all of our homes," said one elderly woman, as she sat on a bench under a tree with three other white-haired survivors of the fighting...

...Tskhinvali residents who survived the Georgian bombardment overnight Friday by hiding in basements and later fled the city estimated that hundreds of civilians had died.

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/capress/080810/world/georgia_south_ossetia

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georiga
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 01:45 AM

Georgian forces were deliberately targeting civilians...

So she gathered her three girls - Ina, 14, Lina, 12, and Marina, 11 - and called a relative to pick them up in his car. They spent the day in a nearby village, watching the fighting grow closer with friends and family. Finally, she said, Georgian tanks started firing into nearby houses.

Those huddled in the house climbed into two cars and started off along a road through a stretch of woods. As they passed through the forest, they came under fire.

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/capress/080810/world/south_ossetia_refugees

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georiga
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 04:26 AM

It is complicated.

Russia is pushing for regime change in Georgia. Georgia is the only country that likes Shrub and he is trying to get them into NATO. It looks like a pissing contest between Bush and Putin to me with Georgia and South Ossetia as the urinals.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georiga
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 05:38 AM

Anyone see the parallel here?

Sudetenland all over again in the East? Payback for the "Bay of Pigs" incident?

First step toward WW3?

Someone needs to put the lid on this PDQ, even if it does mean giving up their immediate goal. Is one new member in NATO worth the cost?

Don T

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georiga
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 06:44 AM

You took the words right out of my mouth, Don. It has all the hallmarks. What's the betting that our politicians choose the most stupid course of action imaginable (as they did in Iraq)?

Still it will "all be over by Christmas" (which Christmas, though?). Eventually the newly resurgent Chinese army will be able to march in and salvage anything salvageable from the smouldering (radioactive?) ruins.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Paul Burke
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 08:12 AM

I'm surprised you've got this far in the discussion without mentioning Kosovo. Putin said at the time that the Kosovo independence referendum set a precedent. The obvious outcome is referenda in South Ossetia and Abkhazia, which would almost certainly lead to them becoming Russian- controlled republiclets.

I suspect Saakashvili thought the Americans and Europeans would come running to help him. I can't see any other reason why a country with 4 million people would attack the stated interests of a country with 140 million.

The outcome will probably be his replacement by a Russian- friendly government, which will prove useful to Putin by keeping its hand on the tap on the pipeline. Which could have been avoided if the West hadn't sold the Russians a duff version of the market economy back in 1991, if they hadn't lorded it over them when they were struggling, if they had gone in with a serious reconstruction plan instead of attempting to loot the place, if they had condemned the excesses of Georgian nationalists against the Russian minority, and if they weren't so addicted to oil.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: GUEST,Ron Davies
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 08:21 AM

Paul has it absolutely right. Putin can easily cite Kosovo as a precedent. It appears fairly obvious that self-determination for South Ossetia would result in a similar status to that of North Ossetia--and now that is very likely to happen.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: kendall
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 09:49 AM

I was going to mention Kosovo.
Bush was on CNN this morning complaining about the violence and saying he confronted Putin and Medvedev (sp) I'd hate to have his nerve in a tooth! This after he invaded Iraq on trumped up charges! Iraq is 4000 miles from us, Georgia is just across the border from Russia.
January can't come soon enough for me.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Teribus
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 10:05 AM

Self-determination eh? If that was in anyway desireable to the Russians why was there never a United Socialist Soviet Republic of Ossetia, or the other lump of Georgia that the "neutral" Russian peacekeepers have poured troops into?

The USSR set the boundaries of both Georgia and Ukraine. Interesting to see what those countries will look like once all the dust settles. It won't start WW3, but will definitely start "Cold War 2".

The oligarchs that "looted" Russia were the former "elite" of Russia, Putin knows them well, most of them served with him in the KGB.