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BS: If the Bottom DOES fall out
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Subject: BS: If the Bottom DOES fall out From: Janie Date: 29 Sep 08 - 11:40 PM My parents, sister and I are starting to talk about what we might need to do and consider if the whole economic ball of wax does melt. Not in an alarmist way, but just a general discussion of our options as a family. My parents both grew up during the Depression, and their experience has largely informed the budding dialogue among us. We are a small, but close family that gets along quite well. If need be, we could combine resources and households - not seamlessly or without bumps - but with good grace and optimism that among us, we could take care of ourselves and each other. So, while we are all concerned, we are not frightened or excessively worried about our ability to keep a roof over our collective heads and food on the table, in the event worse comes to worst. We ARE concerned about our collective ability to insure adequate health care for all of us if the bottom falls out, but especially for my elderly parents, who are already finding it a challenge to afford the medical care and medications they need. We recognize we are fortunate to have the functional, resourceful, close-knit family that we do, and are mindful that our experience is not universal. I'm curious to know if others are having similar conversations. Janie |
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Subject: RE: BS: If the Bottom DOES fall out From: Stilly River Sage Date: 29 Sep 08 - 11:48 PM I'm being more diligent in what I sell on eBay. Trying to keep a supplemental income coming in for as long as it will come. I've had that thought about my neighborhood, though. Most of my neighbors are retired and on fixed incomes. I think we need to have a talk this fall about what each of us will plant in our veggie gardens next spring, and about how we can assist each other regarding things like driving (share rides) and general assistance (ie., house repairs) when needed. SRS |
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Subject: RE: BS: If the Bottom DOES fall out From: Bee Date: 30 Sep 08 - 12:18 AM I so very much hope that ordinary lives will not become so difficult, although it is of course important to consider. I was reading several articles today about the state of Canada's economy, and while it is true that we will take a hit with the rest of the world if the American economy completely tanks, it will be only a secondary shock - we are in a lucky position wrt to debt, well-placed to move on pretty smoothly, by all accounts, despite our economic ties with the US. And since Canadians by nature tend to be a a little on the pessimistic side, I think this is likely true. I have wondered sometimes if Americans can see themselves as outsiders see them. It has been like watching a train fast approaching a curve you're sure it can't make. You can't do anything about it, just hope no one gets hurt too badly. Good luck, neighbours, and I hope that train gets slowed right down in the very near future. |
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Subject: RE: BS: If the Bottom DOES fall out From: Amos Date: 30 Sep 08 - 12:23 AM We've had the conversation, but we did not get far into it, because a real collapse is hard to envision when you have had orderly supply lines all your life. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: If the Bottom DOES fall out From: Barry Finn Date: 30 Sep 08 - 12:45 AM Yes, we have discussed it & my wife does not agree with me & my siblings. She thinks it's a bad idea to steal a heavily armed Navy vessel & start hijacking oil tankers just outside US waters & ranson them off to their owners. We figured that paper money won't be worth the wheel barrow you carry it in so we'll be looking for the deeded rights to their overseas beachfront properties, preferably located on large South Pacific islands. We'll also be taking all of our canned goods with US. Barry |
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Subject: RE: BS: If the Bottom DOES fall out From: Bert Date: 30 Sep 08 - 02:10 AM Barry, I nearly pissed myself reading your post (psst!!! if you DO start a hijacking business, give me a call, I'm on your side.). As a WWII baby I am used to rationing and people growing cabbages in window boxes. As SRS says, we will certainly be planting a veggie garden next year, crash or not. You're right Amos, a full collapse is hard to envision, but there will certainly be a lot of hardship for everyone to recover from that past eight years. Another thing to consider is that we have to work together with our neighbors to overcome whatever adversity we face. |
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Subject: RE: BS: If the Bottom DOES fall out From: akenaton Date: 30 Sep 08 - 02:57 AM Well....We've all bought into this shitheap, to a larger or smaller extent. Those who tried to sound a warning were accused of "negativity" We still discuss Obama and McCain as if either can solve anything. Both are completely powerless...simply window dressing. The bottom HAS fallen out and the sooner we come to terms with that the better. Sure , a taxpayer bailout may work for a few months...a year? but how long can the taxpayer continue to support a section of the community which robs them blind. Capitalism needs optimism and belief that the machine is capable of delivering, but people have looked under the hood and they don't like what they see. A clapped out, leaky, polluting engine, pulling the worlds biggest overloaded trailer....and running on EMPTY......Ake |
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Subject: RE: BS: If the Bottom DOES fall out From: Paul Burke Date: 30 Sep 08 - 03:29 AM I wonder what the Romano- British were discussing in 400AD? The Roman Empire seemed set to last forever; within 10 years Britain had fallen into the Dark Ages. The Western Roman Empire itself lasted less than a hundred years more, though Byzantium was effective for another 700 or so. One major problem with a "bailout" is that the assets have been wildly overvalued. Eother the value has to drop, or inflation has to catch up with them, so the main effect of a crude financial get-out-of-jail-free could be hyperinflation. Oh, and forget about that pension. |
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Subject: RE: BS: If the Bottom DOES fall out From: Big Al Whittle Date: 30 Sep 08 - 03:32 AM They accused you of 'negativity'. The bastards! Whatever CAN they have meant? |
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Subject: RE: BS: If the Bottom DOES fall out From: Big Al Whittle Date: 30 Sep 08 - 03:39 AM You ought to join the Jehovah's witnesses, Ake. You'd be brilliant at turning up on peoples doorsteps saying, the world is in awful state at the moment. Have you ever wondered what it can all mean? Where is it all leading? Don't let your daughter wear tight jeans, or have a blood transfusion and you'll be 'quids in' with Jesus. Can I sell you Watchtower? Its a great magazine and will answer all your questions. |
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Subject: RE: BS: If the Bottom DOES fall out From: akenaton Date: 30 Sep 08 - 03:51 AM Thanks Al....That made even me smile!! Still.... I suppose most people would rather see a Jehovah's Witness on their doorstep, than a New Labour canvasser....Eh?....:0) |
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Subject: RE: BS: If the Bottom DOES fall out From: CarolC Date: 30 Sep 08 - 04:41 AM According to Dennis Kucinich, the bottom doesn't have to fall out... http://www.democracynow.org/2008/9/29/is_this_the_united_states_congress |
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Subject: RE: BS: If the Bottom DOES fall out From: SINSULL Date: 30 Sep 08 - 08:19 AM Barry - make it a mano o' war and we'll all sing shanties as we force our hostages to bail. I brought it up at work and suggested we could all livetogether like on Walton's Mountain. From a cubicle far away came "I'd rather live under a bus." My family - Nana + her 8 children and their families all lived in one huge house and survived the depression. They had to pool all their salaries. My mother worked for the phone company - meaning she went to work every day and if there was a console free, she worked and got paid. If not... I am prepared to live in the "It is." and manage. Maybe the House of the Setting Sun will happen after all. |
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Subject: RE: BS: If the Bottom DOES fall out From: dick greenhaus Date: 30 Sep 08 - 08:22 AM What I always wonder is, if the market lost a trillion dollars yesterday, who made the trillion? |
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Subject: RE: BS: If the Bottom DOES fall out From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 30 Sep 08 - 08:25 AM "preferably located on large South Pacific island" Personally, if you insist on living on Pacific islands, I say you either gotta be about 200 ft above current sea level or be able to breathe underwater... |
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Subject: RE: BS: If the Bottom DOES fall out From: Donuel Date: 30 Sep 08 - 08:37 AM Barry, keep an eye on the pirating of the ship carrying Soviet Tanks and ammo. It is a rich source of practical experience you could use. What was that thread name last summer "surviving a Depression'? A new hobo society could evolve that would need food chores and shelter in churches and private homes. |
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Subject: RE: BS: If the Bottom DOES fall out From: Bill D Date: 30 Sep 08 - 08:50 AM I agree with Dick G. I wonder where that trillion went....was it just on paper, or did that amount move from one set of hands to another. I KNOW that if one bank buys another bank for 3 Billion, someone in the bought bank is gonna be pretty comfortable, no matter what happens to the depositors. |
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Subject: RE: BS: If the Bottom DOES fall out From: Donuel Date: 30 Sep 08 - 09:09 AM Yesterday billions of trades sold their shares at a loss which means they bought high and sold low. The money they lost can be added up to a trillion.2 dollars. A relatively small 40 million trades were made while the value of the shares were going up. Both Google and Apple are now at half of their all time high value. The loss of money is real to the people who sold. The people who did not sell but have a colection of shares in a money market account are now holding a less valued portfolio but can wait for value to someday return before cashing in. |
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Subject: RE: BS: If the Bottom DOES fall out From: Uncle_DaveO Date: 30 Sep 08 - 09:34 AM Where the trillion went? Most of it went to the people who, six weeks or six months or a year ago (or whenever), sold the stock to those who sold it yesterday. Some of will go to those who sold short in the last few weeks or so. Dave Oesterreich |
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Subject: RE: BS: If the Bottom DOES fall out From: Barry Finn Date: 30 Sep 08 - 09:35 AM Donuel, "New Hobo Society"? See the thread on tent cities? They're becoming the new home grown population in the counntry's public parks. It's (Hobo Society) already here. It's been been here for awhile & it's just growing faster. Barry |
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Subject: RE: BS: If the Bottom DOES fall out From: Rapparee Date: 30 Sep 08 - 09:42 AM We're keeping our payments current and cutting back (have been for some time now) on what we buy. I'll be planting a garden along the back fence next Spring, veggies and things, and I'm thinking of some berry bushes as well. (God help the golfer who helps himself!) We've got enough in T-bills to pay off the mortgage and have some left over and we have some small savings other than that. My wife started collecting Social Security (right....), I've got a very, very small VA pension (tax free!), and I've got to get the papers for the state pensions I'm eligible for filed. At least for now my job has some pretty decent medical benefits, and at least for now those are not taxed. I've got firearms and ammuntion, not to shoot looters with, but I can hunt for meat if I must. I also have a bow and arrows as well as fishing gear. And like other folks out here I'm putting a few cans of food aside every time I go to the store. There a two fireplaces in the house and enough wood around that we could get by -- it might not be hickory, ash, or oak but it'll burn. Lots of folks out here are doing the same things. And we're all contributing to the Food Bank, Goodwill, St. Vincent de Paul, and Deseret Industries. You never know when YOU might need help. It helps that I grew up poor.... |
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Subject: RE: BS: If the Bottom DOES fall out From: Ebbie Date: 30 Sep 08 - 12:10 PM From CarolC's link: "REP. DENNIS KUCINICH: This is a copy of the bill which will provide for a $700 billion bailout of Wall Street. It has provisions in it where it talks about helping homeowners, but when you read the fine print, you see it has language like "may" instead of "shall" and "encouraging" instead of "mandating" help for the millions of homeowners who are worried right now about whether they're going to lose their home. There's no help for them in this. "So what we have here is a rescue plan that essentially gives all the speculators a bailout and puts the bad debts in the custody of the government. The president of the Dallas Federal Reserve Bank has said that this plan could create a fiscal chasm, says that the problem isn't tight monetary policy, it's the reckless behavior of some of these investors who have now found themselves in a position where a government bailout is going to help reward their bad behavior." I have a couple of hillside acres in Oregon that, if needs must, I can retire to and raise my own food. Of course, it's 20 miles or more from any family I have there. But we could set up lots of tents there and have lots of music parties. :) Isn't it nice that most of our instruments don't require electricity? |
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Subject: RE: BS: If the Bottom DOES fall out From: heric Date: 30 Sep 08 - 01:05 PM The best way I can grasp the "where is that trillion dollars now" question, which is surely too simplistic, is: It seems to me that when you buy stocks you are buying paper promises with uncounted intermediaries between you and the promisor. The promise is to grow corporate profits and plow value into the stock with minimal waste and fraud. I think the *bulk* of the value is in perceived future value (herd mentality), with some smaller part being a more objective, verifiable accounting value. So Uncle D must be right that the money went to those who sold before everyone lost collective confidence in the future. The money still exists, in their hands (with its separate, smaller issues in the promise of the federal government in backing that paper and preserving its value relative to bread and milk.) It's awfully hard to perceive true value in those promises of future performance in comparison to a few acres of land in Oregon. With expectations smashed ("history shows you will earn 10% per year!"), and the boomer productive years almost past, it hard to see the confidence in future value resurging for a decade at least. It's time for me to start buying, since I can wait 10 or 15 years. I know a guy who sold his home in 2006, and is still waiting to buy again. So I guess he is holding a few hundred thousand dollars of the money that investors in mortgage-backed securities THOUGHT THEY owned. |
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Subject: RE: BS: If the Bottom DOES fall out From: Bee Date: 30 Sep 08 - 01:06 PM I've lived really poor in the past. There have been times when I lived on nothing but nervous optimism. Enough such times that some nights I slide into our very comfortable bed, in our own nice little house with a feeling of utter luxury and gratitude. When I didn't have a job, I did a lot of bartering, trading skills for food or goods, and a lot of one or two day jobs. I knew which friends and relatives could be counted on for a bed if things completely went south. I never once ended up on welfare (though a couple of times I should have; I may have recovered quicker). Pooling resources is always a good plan in adverse times. One winter, living in the country, I was jobless and had two neighbours in the same predicament. We would gather at the home of whoever had coffee that day, bring along a little brunch food if we had something, brainstorm on what we could do to get out of our poverty, trade rumours of jobs, projects, available resources, and play backgammon while the snow piled deeper outside. We helped each other through a bad winter, kept ourselves sane and optimistic, and made a little money through our pooled ideas. I have more confidence about my ability to survive poverty and hard times now, and I always have a worst-case plan stewing in the back of my brain, and I know other people (friends and relations) with the same kinds of plans, like Janie and SRS and Sinsull. I think knowing who you can really share resources with is important; whose plans mesh with your own and even are interdependent. One good thing about medical care: doctors need vegetables too, and quite a few other things. Hospitals? Well, I'm damn glad we have public health care. |
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Subject: RE: BS: If the Bottom DOES fall out From: Amos Date: 30 Sep 08 - 01:17 PM Bee: Great story6. Well done on pulling out of all that! A |
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Subject: RE: BS: If the Bottom DOES fall out From: heric Date: 30 Sep 08 - 01:20 PM Almost exactly at the time I was writing my musing above, FolkieDave was explaining it more clearly and put it on the Fifth Joke Thread of 2008. |
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Subject: RE: BS: If the Bottom DOES fall out From: Bee Date: 30 Sep 08 - 01:37 PM Amos, more dumb luck involved than real planning, often as not. One advantage I think I have is the ability to recognize an option when I see it, and a positive talent for being able to bullshit my way into situations I really shouldn't be able to handle. I got into the pasteup/graphics/layout for small publications business by talking pure air to the publisher about my ability to do the job, then learned desktop publishing software having never laid a finger on a computer, and took on writing ad copy and business articles as well. Did that for four years. ;-D |
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Subject: RE: BS: If the Bottom DOES fall out From: Charmion Date: 30 Sep 08 - 01:38 PM We paid off our consumer debt and accelerated payments on our mortgage. Fortunately, we both have good jobs -- the Canadian Forces isn't going out of business any time soon -- and good relations with our siblings. If things completely go south, as it were, we are more likely to be among the helpers than the helped, but I have abandoned my fantasies of moving to a less stressful climate than that of the Ottawa Valley until we see how things shake out. Watch and shoot, as we say in the army ... |
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Subject: RE: BS: If the Bottom DOES fall out From: GUEST,Bob Ryszkiewicz Date: 30 Sep 08 - 01:43 PM Guard your thoughts... |
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Subject: RE: BS: If the Bottom DOES fall out From: Janie Date: 30 Sep 08 - 01:52 PM I've been hard up, but never poor, and I have always had the cushion of family that I knew I could fall back on if it became necessary. By choice, I have had the experience of living for several years in tents, a travel trailer or out of the back of a pick-up truck with a topper on it. I know I value running water and a flush toilet. Hot water is nice when you can get it. Everything else is frosting on the cake. I am no more or less satisfied with my life now than I was then. |
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Subject: RE: BS: If the Bottom DOES fall out From: M.Ted Date: 30 Sep 08 - 02:06 PM Time to tell the truth people--folkies have always lived as if the depression was still in full swing. And they love it. Bee, for instance, made abject poverty sound like the nearest thing to heaven--and everybody loves it. I've been a mudcatter for a decade, and I've seen a lot of soup recipes, read about the virtues of heat from woodburning stoves and such things, but never seen any discussions of investment management, no strategies for protecting income and other resources, or any of the stuff that real survival in today's world depends upon. No advice here on how to keep the house when you lose your job--no advice on what to do when you have good income, but your credit is overextended. No advice on what to do when you need a car to work, the old one is shot, and you can't get financing for another one-- The reality is that things have been tight for a lot of people for quite a long time, and most of you have missed it-- |
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Subject: RE: BS: If the Bottom DOES fall out From: Bee Date: 30 Sep 08 - 02:20 PM True, M.Ted, to a point. I have to say, though, that we and most of my friends/relatives either own outright or are close to owning our own homes, moved out of cities 10 to 20 years ago, and have retirement income strategies of some kind, some better than others. Most of us have good credit because we are suspicious of credit, and have used it sparingly, however that goes against the instincts of financial planners/money managers. So you're right - we aren't really able to give advice about the concerns you express; we just hope we've done the right thing by being very basic about protecting ourselves financially over the long term. |
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Subject: RE: BS: If the Bottom DOES fall out From: Janie Date: 30 Sep 08 - 02:50 PM M. Ted, Actually, I think we haven't missed it at all - many of us are the people for whom things have been tight for quite a long time. I've never had a good income, and have therefore been very careful about debt, and very conservative with what little money I have had to invest. I suspect the same is true for many others here. I think for many of us, we have had times when things were tight, and times when things were even tighter financially. It leads to confidence that we will manage, no matter what happens. My house is paid for and I have no debt. Ditto my parents and sister. I've never borrowed money to buy a car in my life, and hope I don't ever have to. I'm not a good money manager, but I am confident I can make whatever adjustments are necessary to live within my means, whatever those means may be. Again, having family, neighbors and/or community with a clear sense of interdependence helps bunches. I think my situation may be pretty typical of the average Mudcatter. |
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Subject: RE: BS: If the Bottom DOES fall out From: Charmion Date: 30 Sep 08 - 03:06 PM Like Janie said. Also, those of us who are financially comfortable come from families with vivid and frequently recounted memories of hard times and learned old-fashioned financial priorities from our parents: keep your day job, feed the family, make sure everyone has good shoes and a winter coat, keep the roof and the furnace intact, save for rainy days and old age. Take financial advice from the most cautious people you can find and, if you invest, make damned sure you can at least keep your shirt if all else fails. Keep your resume and your passport up to date and never be too proud to work because nothing is sure in this world. There: that's financial advice folkie-style. |
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Subject: RE: BS: If the Bottom DOES fall out From: Rapparee Date: 30 Sep 08 - 03:44 PM I'm making one helluva lot more money than I ever thought I would. I probably make more money in one year (including benefits) than my mother made in her whole life. I'm not wealthy, my wife is not from a wealthy family. But we are both from families that are truly frugal. Don't buy more than you really need. Waste not, want not. Put some aside for a rainy day. Repair it (if you can) instead of replacing it. Just because you can doesn't mean you should. Pay the rent, utilities, and food first. Buy the best you can afford. Nobody ever went broke planning for hard times. Borrow only when you must and pay it back a fast as you can. Help others less fortunate, because you might need help someday. Celebrate whenever you can. There are no pockets in a shroud. Everyone knows what to do. All they have to do is do it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: If the Bottom DOES fall out From: CarolC Date: 30 Sep 08 - 03:57 PM Looks to me like folkies are the true conservatives. |
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Subject: RE: BS: If the Bottom DOES fall out From: Amos Date: 30 Sep 08 - 04:02 PM Ted, Our house and cars are paid for. Our only debt is monthly cycles of plastic. But we live frugally. We don't dine out, don't go to overpriced trashy films, don't drink at bars. Once in a while, we may go somewhere that strikes us as quirky or special. We're glad to have the option. If you want advice on the issues you mention, I'll be glad to share points of view on them, FWIW. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: If the Bottom DOES fall out From: Stringsinger Date: 30 Sep 08 - 04:13 PM When the bottom fell out in Cuba after the USSR pulled out, they organized organic gardening and agriculture conservation which saved their country. Eventually they developed accredited universities and schools and a first-rate medical system. The credit card has been overextended to Americans and the bill has come due. Now it's time to reevaluate what it means to be American and get back to our core principles of "life liberty and the pursuit of happiness". This means that we can't continue to borrow on our energy, our commodities, our consumerism, our misguided foreign policy to preserve these by aggression in foreign countries. We need to rethink what America means. Andrew Bacevich's book "The Limits of Power" recommended by Bill Moyers is a good start. |
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Subject: RE: BS: If the Bottom DOES fall out From: Big Mick Date: 30 Sep 08 - 04:34 PM The consumerism of the first 3/4's of the 20th century that made this country the land of opportunity is not the consumerism of the last 1/4 of the 20th century and the early 21st century. This is more like the late 19th century US, as well as much of Europe. We have once again made demigods of the capitalists, the result being the widening gap between rich and poor, as well as the centralizing of the wealth in fewer and fewer hands. We let our intellect and good sense get dumbed down to a cliche driven tower of babel discussion, and then when we get bit, we are all angry and confused. We get so caught up in the party line, that we fail to be honest even with ourselves. When we are making a god out of capital, the line from The Snake comes to mind: "But if I hadn't brought you in, by now you might have died" Now she stroked his pretty skin again and then kissed and held him tight But instead of saying thanks, the snake gave her a vicious bite! "Take me in, oh tender woman Take me in for heaven's sake Take me in, tender woman," sighed the snake "Now I saved you," cried the woman And you've bit me, even why? And you know your bite is poisonous and now I'm going to die" "Ah shut up, silly woman," said that reptile with a grin "Now you knew darn well I was a snake before you brought me in Mick |
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Subject: RE: BS: If the Bottom DOES fall out From: Rapparee Date: 30 Sep 08 - 04:42 PM Just like my ancestors, I'll go back to growing my own. And I come from pretty good stock. |
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Subject: RE: BS: If the Bottom DOES fall out From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 30 Sep 08 - 05:23 PM What a nice, sensible group. Why be frugal? Take a small circle of friends and organize a blackmarket operation. Be alert to those on the edge with some savings who desire commodities that can be taken from the unwary. Be ready to take advantage! A lucrative endeavor; one may continue to dine out, go to overpriced trashy films [and trashier music galas] and in the bars toast the enterprise and cunning of those who have learned to live above the means of others. Bottom falls out? Opportunities will abound. |
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Subject: RE: BS: If the Bottom DOES fall out From: M.Ted Date: 30 Sep 08 - 09:39 PM Actually, the world has done pretty well by way of capital, and, despite the current problems, financial system that you all wax so poetically against (and which you all took advantage of to achieve your current material ensconcements) isn't going anywhere. Bee understood the point, which is, again, there isn't much help here for anyone who is simply trying to deal with the real bottom line issues, which are all related to credit. You may not carry a lot of credit/debt, but if your employer needs credit to do business, you could be in serious trouble. Even charitable, non-profit, and governmental organizations need credit, if it's only just to bridge gaps between the time that salaries and expenses must be paid and the time that revenues are received. |
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Subject: RE: BS: If the Bottom DOES fall out From: bobad Date: 30 Sep 08 - 09:49 PM When all the trees have been cut down, when all the animals have been hunted, when all the waters are polluted, when all the air is unsafe to breathe, only then will you discover you cannot eat money. Cree Prophecy |
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Subject: RE: BS: If the Bottom DOES fall out From: Rapparee Date: 30 Sep 08 - 10:24 PM Sorry, M. Ted. I work for a city that has more in the "banks" than it has in debt. They work (and I work) very, very hard to keep taxes low and to squeeze the eagles until they scream in pain. We even reuse the asphalt milled off the streets during repaving. Next year we'll start work on a plant to reuse water -- sewage treatment with a vengeance. My pensions are guaranteed by the States I used to work in. If the bottom REALLY DOES fall out we'll all be in desperate trouble -- I can only hope that we'll survive. |
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Subject: RE: BS: If the Bottom DOES fall out From: M.Ted Date: 30 Sep 08 - 10:25 PM What are you sorry for? |
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Subject: RE: BS: If the Bottom DOES fall out From: Janie Date: 30 Sep 08 - 10:48 PM What those of us posting here have, that the stock market can't touch, are knowledge, skills and resources in the form of paid off, or nearly paid off shelter, and family, friends and communities that are also resourceful. We also apparently all still have the physical capacity to do some fairly heavy labor - serious gardening on a large scale is hard physical work. In addition, productive gardening is not inexpensive. Unless you live where you can keep chickens or a cow or two, fertilizer is a major expense. And if you have to buy feed for those animals, that is pretty costly also. Once you get started, you can save seed, but the initial cost of seed for a large garden is significant. Water is an increasingly scarce resource, is often rationed, and at least in my part of the country, is so expensive that irrigation from municipal water sources is not cost effective. And if income is reduced, it is not doable. So if you are planning on raising a bunch of your own food or growing food to barter, better get those rain barrels and a tiller purchased now, and figure out a way to store quantities of that collected water to get you through the dry season. Or drill a deep well for irrigation purposes while you still have the money to do so. Without adequate water during the growing season, you will sinply be wasting your money and labor in putting in a significant garden. That is not to say you can't still supplement your diet and food bill in season with salad and container veggie gardening. However, don't have illusions about feeding yourself and your family if you don't have what it takes to successfully grow a substantial garden. Let us not be naive. |
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Subject: RE: BS: If the Bottom DOES fall out From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 30 Sep 08 - 11:13 PM "Once you get started, you can save seed," Nope - not any more - the big seed corporations have 'fixed' that - and if the seeds ARE viable - they will sue you out of existence, as has happened to a few farmers already. |
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Subject: RE: BS: If the Bottom DOES fall out From: Ebbie Date: 30 Sep 08 - 11:38 PM Oh yes, you can, Fooles. Not as much nor as many foods as used to could but many, many things. My place is looking better and better! I should drill a well, however; there is a spring on it but for a good supply I need a well. Shouldn't be a problem reaching the water level though; there is a spring above me and a country creek below me. |
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Subject: RE: BS: If the Bottom DOES fall out From: M.Ted Date: 01 Oct 08 - 01:02 AM Ebbie--you remind me of ending of some old western-- "What are you gonna do now, Tex?" "I got me a farm out in Oregon. I reckon I'll head out there." "You wouldn't mind havin' a leetle company? Least as far as the Columbia River." "Do what you want, pilgrim, but if'n you fall off that dag blasted horse of yorn, don't expect me to stop for ya." "I don't expect no help. Not from an ornery old coot like you." "Well it takes one to know one, I reckon!" And it does sound good-- |
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Subject: RE: BS: If the Bottom DOES fall out From: Janie Date: 01 Oct 08 - 02:01 AM M. Ted, I started this thread, and it is the only thread on the bailout or the economic crisis to which I have posted. In addition, I have not posted to any of the political threads since well before the end of the primary season. Neither have I contacted any of my congressmen/women regarding this issue. I don't know what ought to be done, and am very cognizant that whatever is, or is not done by our national legislature is ultimately a crapshoot. I agree that Bee is her customary clear, nondefensive and articulate self, and she gets it. She posted while I'll was writing my immediately subsequent reply, and when I read her post after submitting my own, I thought that she had said it much better than did I. I think most of us who are posting to this particular thread, (and maybe I am wrong,) are simply focusing on the query I posted to begin with - If push comes to shove, what conversations and thoughts are you having about how you and yours might make it through. My inquiry, and the responses of people over-all, are very personal and individual to each of our circumstances. I don't think I understand what your issue is with these very personal, non-political responses. Are some of us talking apples while you are talking oranges perhaps? |
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Subject: RE: BS: If the Bottom DOES fall out From: M.Ted Date: 01 Oct 08 - 07:30 AM I have two points--First, that I see different problems than the ones that folks are proposing solutions for. Second, that these problems have been with us for a while, and a lot of people have been seriously impacted by them already. That's it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: If the Bottom DOES fall out From: maeve Date: 01 Oct 08 - 08:41 AM "No advice here on how to keep the house when you lose your job--no advice on what to do when you have good income, but your credit is overextended. No advice on what to do when you need a car to work, the old one is shot, and you can't get financing for another one--"M. Ted Fair enough, M. Ted. I'll give it a try. 1. Keeping the house when you've lost your job- Talk to your mortgage holder right away. Many will work with you. Talk with your bank's Customer Service officers. If you've already been actively working to pay off the loan and to refinance when appropriate you'll be in better shape if you do lose your job. Better yet, also pay off the loan as quickly as you can. Even a small extra payment each month helps, and in troubled times can indicate to the loan holder what a good risk you are. You may be better off selling the house and renting as you pay off your debt. Here are two online sites with information and tools to help with these and other financial planning. There are others out there. http://www.smartmoney.com/personal-finance/ http://www.crown.org/Tools/ 2. Good income, but credit is overextended- Get help from any of the good financial planning sites (see 2 examples above). Some banks make a practice of helping customers make a financial plan, and many accountants can do that and offer practical advice beyond the basics. The usual recommendations tend to start with an overview of your actual debt, actual income and present savings. Next, make a spending plan/budget (again, the financial planning sites often have tools available). Pay off one debt at a time, starting with small, high interest debt. As you pay off one, add the amount you have been paying to that one to the next one on your list. As you gain control over your total debt, start adding to emergency savings. Three month's expenses is an oft recommended emergency fund amount for which to aim . The key is to stop adding to your debt while reducing current debt and increasing savings. 3. You need a car to work, the old one is dead, can't get financing- This is where talking to people with know-how and creative approaches to practical problems pays off. There are often pretty good repairable used cars available through automotive repair shops. Talk to your neighbors as well as your co-workers. We sold our extra car to our next-door neighbors for just enough to cover the parts we needed for our most used vehicle. Four years later they're still getting good use from it. Be prepared to ask others for a lift while you're looking for your own car. Talk to community organizations including churches, Lion's Club members, and the like. Offer to trade whatever skills or possessions you can offer for the vehicle, for repairs, for carpooling, etc. You may need to be looking for work nearer home, or you may find it's wise to move closer to your job. We have done all of these. 4. As my husband and I figure out how to cope with what the world throws at us, we're looking for ways to help others in our communities to find the help they need. You might be the one to help someone else deal with something you've already handled. I hope something here is helpful. I'd be happy to respond to a PM if I can offer any encouragement. Bee, another time I'll make a post regarding gardens and such. |
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Subject: RE: BS: If the Bottom DOES fall out From: Rapparee Date: 01 Oct 08 - 09:06 AM Okay, let's be REALLY serious now -- The bottom falls out, really falls. No power, no fuel, no railroads, no trucks. No running water, no sewage treatment. No more ammunition to hunt with, no more flour, no more sugar, no more prescription medicines. No nothin'. First thing that would happen is that a lot of people would die, and not necessarily in riots or gang fights or that crap. Respirators would stop. No kidney dialysis. No oxygen refills. No "Meals on Wheels." No insulin. No help when you fall and can't get up. No telephones or Internet, no cell phones. Back to Dark Ages. I don't expect it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: If the Bottom DOES fall out From: Donuel Date: 01 Oct 08 - 09:45 AM Nobody expected the Spanish Inquisition, but you can expect religious sects to be more desperate, defensive and vindictive than you could ever have expected. |
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Subject: RE: BS: If the Bottom DOES fall out From: Donuel Date: 01 Oct 08 - 10:07 AM i AM MAKING SOLAR WINTER WINDOWS They are just those cheap one inch thick 6X4ft white insulating panels with the outside spray painted black and a circle cut and sealed with plexi or shrink wrap and finally fitted to the windows from the inside. The circle can be as small or large as the window and panel permits This is practical for me since I have 4 15 ft windows, two of which are floor to ceiling. They are super light and can pull out to open the windows on a nice day. The main room has a poor man's designer theme of round tables and chairs with other circles and globes, so circular window looks fine Shelter, heat, food, water, medicine... what am I forgetting... |
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Subject: RE: BS: If the Bottom DOES fall out From: Janie Date: 01 Oct 08 - 10:17 AM Your guitar? |
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Subject: RE: BS: If the Bottom DOES fall out From: Amos Date: 01 Oct 08 - 10:22 AM It may get rough, relatively speaking, but it ain't gonna get that rough unless some one shuts down the oil industry completely. That's one of our key points of massive system failure--our whole balloon depends on it. One reason is that we no longe rhave a fallback in the horse-driven infrastructure we had even 90 years back. So if cars/trucks fail, it's shank's mare. Ouch. We'd come up with something, though. We are survivors. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: If the Bottom DOES fall out From: Donuel Date: 01 Oct 08 - 10:35 AM HEY I fit a electic motor & batter to my bike with an automatic gear shift a couple years ago. These electric motor kits for bikes are really great and with a ittle kidee trailer in back it can haul a hundred pounds of groceries. 20-30 mile limit though... 30mph is a breeze. The conversion kit is as simple as changing a tire. I did make a custom battery holder though which wasn't so easy. Hell you can put the battery in the trailer. |
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Subject: RE: BS: If the Bottom DOES fall out From: Rapparee Date: 01 Oct 08 - 04:59 PM That's the thing, Amos. We are survivors and we come from survivor stock. |
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Subject: RE: BS: If the Bottom DOES fall out From: Janie Date: 01 Oct 08 - 11:05 PM I have a problem. I can shoot a groundhog or trap a rabbit. I can skin, dress and butcher them. But once I have done all the above, I can no longer eat them. It's a good thing I like beans and cornbread. |
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Subject: RE: BS: If the Bottom DOES fall out From: Rapparee Date: 01 Oct 08 - 11:17 PM You'd be surprised what you can do if you are hungry enough. How about rats, snakes, gerbils, hamsters, guinea pigs, dogs and cats? |
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Subject: RE: BS: If the Bottom DOES fall out From: TIA Date: 01 Oct 08 - 11:17 PM I got about 3/4 acres of bottom land along the crick...currently lawn, but it'll raise some good crops. And, if the bank comes to take it, we'll sic the cattle dog on 'em. No sweat. Seriously. (the lawn is dead already). |
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Subject: RE: BS: If the Bottom DOES fall out From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 04 Oct 08 - 07:43 AM http://news.yahoo.com/comics/uclickcomics/20081004/cx_cl_uc/cl20081004;_ylt=ApFbBxNGXMfE37JgFob7jd7ccLQF Winnebage condos... :-) |
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Subject: RE: BS: If the Bottom DOES fall out From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 04 Oct 08 - 08:15 AM "if your employer needs credit to do business" Once upon a time, small businesses did not 'need' credit - but everybody USUALLY had '30 days to pay', which nobody really considered 'credit'. If a business 'needs' credit to pay wages, then it is really running 'close to the bone' - which is what has happened to all business - all keen to 'work their money harder' - look what happens to farm land with that brilliant idea.... |
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Subject: RE: BS: If the Bottom DOES fall out From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 04 Oct 08 - 08:17 AM http://news.yahoo.com/comics/uclickcomics/20081003/cx_zi_uc/zi20081003;_ylt=Ap_xt842YX6s2zYQM_kK8Y226ysC My variable rate mortgage gives me MOOD SWINGS... |
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Subject: RE: BS: If the Bottom DOES fall out From: Stilly River Sage Date: 04 Oct 08 - 09:50 AM Some of us learn to manage money efficiently later than others. Some of us learn how to spend more efficiently when we figure out how to look at what is around us and realize much of it is luxury and unnecessary. The Congress passed bailout bills this week, a period in which people cast a wild gaze around and wondered what in their present lifestyle was going to have to go. That "credit bailout" bill was a way for the consumer habits of Americans to keep going as before. Keep borrowing, keep spending. Most everyone will forget, this will be a memory like an almost forgotten dream. The smart ones will learn from it and try to fix things, but I predict that they will be outnumbered, that the majority will move to go along as before. SRS |
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Subject: RE: BS: If the Bottom DOES fall out From: Rapparee Date: 04 Oct 08 - 09:54 AM Like the old cowboy said, "Mebbe one percent learns from readin' and thinkin'. Mebbe another two percent learns from thar mistakes. And the rest of us jist keep pissin' in our boots." |
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Subject: RE: BS: If the Bottom DOES fall out From: Donuel Date: 04 Oct 08 - 10:13 AM What if you have no job or savings but you can be productive soon? Prosper.com is a website that sponsors peer to peer lending. Ig you have nothing to qualify for a commercial loan this is a good alternative. What if you have some savings. GOod news, banks are so cash starved they are paying up to 5% for cash deposits. Hey it used to be 1%. What if you feel alone in this. Then you are delusional. There are a million white collar unemployed hobos out there waiting to be organized into a productive enterprise. new enterprises: I don;t know but by free assciating and distilling ideas a new economy will emerge... House rental swaps, chow houses, non electric food storage, and all those ideas you wanted to do....there are others out there who feel the same way. need a house in the boondocks? rammed earth used tire houses and water filled galss bottle solar windows cost only the gas for a truck to haul the free materials. Trench toilet at first and then solve the water question. Runoff collection etc. Then you can get fancy New use projects. maybe the stuff in your area is rare everywhere else. use me, sell em. Co operative gardens. dead wood collection good luck and remember the only thing that has held any of you together so far has been love. Saying it out loud more often will motivate plans better than promises or greed. |
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Subject: Community and Triage From: wysiwyg Date: 04 Oct 08 - 10:20 AM I have a problem. I can shoot a groundhog or trap a rabbit. I can skin, dress and butcher them. But once I have done all the above, I can no longer eat them. Been there (simlarly not identically), and done that. The solution is very simple. Barter with someone to get what THEY processed. If you get on a regular buddy/community system with others, you will all eat well. We know this when it comes to the movement of garden produce around our circle, but meats can be approached the same way. I guess Hardi and I have been philosphizing and planning about what we call "The Credit Bubble" for a long time, knowing it will pop in our lifetime. The effects of it extend so very far that to deal with it, you have to know the underpinnings. Most people we know, at this point, are just starting to do the "surface thinking." I can only summarize our "prep" by saying that we have minimized credit for a long, long time, and that our investment has been in community, not commodity. We refrain from generating our own credit bubble, and we don't live off someone else's. Where we live..... we can live here, pretty much no matter what. We can downsize at any time to whatever degree is needed-- it would take about 3 days-- and we know enough about the details that would be involved to do it pretty confortably. I don't mean downsizing to a smaller house. If we had to, we're prepared to downsize all the way to a tent, 'nuff said. I have done it in the past. I've always lived "raised poor." You dont forget the tricks, and you don't let go of them easily. But in the meantime we're pretty well positioned to keep ourselves to remain "those who look after others," rather than having to scramble for our own comfort. That doesn't mean we are rolling in dough we can pass along; it means that our comfort level is and will remain at the point where we can think and respond with enough clarity to help people do some positive thinking of their own in whatever may come up. I think that's the secret of surviving in the minstry-- to always keep yourself healthy enough to remain a step ahead of the crowd so you can help them when they need it... because one of our favorite sayings is, "They know who to call." But another one is, "They prefer the hope to the reality." Eventually, as we get older, if we survive, we learn to take both the hope AND the reality. A case in point. I have twice now offered some seriously-reality-based thoughts to an individual I am thinking of today, who prefers not to listen at the moment. That tells me that this individual is not yet at the place where their own "smarts" have gotten them into enough trouble that they can tell the difference between their hopes and a real, solid upward path. And that's fine-- because the day that person realizes they need to listen-up, they will recall what I said and/or my phone will ring. Till then I have my hands full of the last one who needed to call. And so it goes, around and around. (And of course sometimes I'm the one calling others when my "smarts" wear thin.) Several times a year I get emails, calls, or in-person indications that whatever I said years ago finally kicked in, and usually an apology for not listening. The acknowledgement is nice because it updates me on what their next level of help-need may be, but the apologetic mindset helps them, not me; after I hear them process their thoughts about this, I just tell them to pay out that line, that kind of slack-- to someone else when they get a chance. My mom taught me this pattern-- we laugh and laugh when I call to tell her what lesson from her Community. It has its own triage built in, because not everyone can listen and accept at the same time. Good thing too, or we'd all be overwhelmed and panicked at the same time! ~Susan |
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Subject: RE: BS: If the Bottom DOES fall out From: Donuel Date: 04 Oct 08 - 10:45 AM Guard against magical thinking and superstitions. When people start to feel helpless or powerless they get a bit primal. REligious nuts start to make their own Lord of the Flies scenarieos IF OU KNOW WHAT I MEAN. The old clubs and church buddies are not as forthcoming as people thought. Friends go south over small debts and absurd lines are drawn So when you feel superstition and paranoia are coming together to create virtual magical thinking (this goes way beyond prayer or wishful thinking) let people know that things are easier and quicker to solve in a down to earth fashion. I will not include the term conspiracy theory. Afterall the 7 year warnings that a conspiracy to rob the country is underway, is not a conspiracy theory. The facts are around us. Sometimes the people who go "magical" or Lord of the flies nasty ... they need to be told THAT IS NOT HELPING. |
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Subject: RE: BS: If the Bottom DOES fall out From: GUEST,heric Date: 04 Oct 08 - 11:10 AM The senators were already sensitive to that one, Donuel. Maybe they do understand what we face: "In April 1996, Sen. Pete Domenici stood on the floor of the Senate and told colleagues "now is the time" to pass legislation requiring insurance companies to cover mental illnesses just like other medical conditions. More than 12 years and numerous setbacks later, that legislation is finally becoming law, tucked into the administration's $700 billion rescue package." |
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Subject: RE: BS: If the Bottom DOES fall out From: GUEST,heric Date: 04 Oct 08 - 12:00 PM "[Personal finance talking head] Jennifer Openshaw advises investors to keep saving in their 401(k)s and keep a year's worth of cash stashed away in a CD." Okay, fine. Oops now where did I put that year's worth of cash? ---------------------------- Rapaire I'm glad you fessed up to taking a hit - I was beginning to think I was all alone on this board. My retirement stash (which isn't enough to keep me in premium cat food) is down 40% (while the S&P 500 went down 21%) and my house is down 40% (while nationwide statistics are down 16%.) Plus I have only a single income, in a job that is nowhere near secure. Maybe I should invest in a year's worth of ammunition. (It's still less than gold I hope.) I think I'd better head in to work. |
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Subject: RE: BS: If the Bottom DOES fall out From: wysiwyg Date: 04 Oct 08 - 12:06 PM We can always start a MudBank. ~S~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: If the Bottom DOES fall out From: CarolC Date: 04 Oct 08 - 01:06 PM We took our big hit about six years ago as a result of outsourcing. We ended up living in a travel trailer on savings for a couple of years, and now our ability to make a living (and our banking) is not so dependent on the US economy. We aren't particularly secure by US standards, but we're managing to continue to move forward. I hope that will continue to be the case even during these insane times. And I have planted a garden in the side yard, and I plan to put one in the power cut behind the house soon. We hope to have enough money to drill a well soon (even though we live in a small city, there is a clean underground river flowing under our house), and I will insist that a hand pump be installed along with the electric one. Two of our neighbors already have wells, and one has a hand pump, so even if we don't drill one ourselves, if the water goes out, we will still have access to water. Our neighborhood is a pretty tightly knit community, so if things get really bad, the people here will all pull together and help each other out. |
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Subject: RE: BS: If the Bottom DOES fall out From: Bee Date: 04 Oct 08 - 01:34 PM Community solidarity is really important. I worry most about people (the vast majority) living in cities, should things go bad. They have the advantage that as long as government functions at all, I think the cities will be fed and people kept warm in some manner. But in many ways, they are much more vulnerable because of their sheer numbers. Planting city veg gardens is a great idea when times are pretty good, but they are theft magnets for hungry people when times are bad. So someone gets fed, but often not the labourer. |
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Subject: RE: BS: If the Bottom DOES fall out From: CarolC Date: 04 Oct 08 - 01:52 PM In this neighborhood we have the advantage of being surrounded by a meandering creek and cyprus swamps on three sides and a cemetary on the other. There's a lot of empty land surrounding this neighborhood, and if necessary, people could plant gardens in the empty parts of the cemetary. The people in this part of town had a history of self-reliance. They're mostly African Americans, and because of the history of African Americans in the US South, they know a hell of a lot about surviving under adverse conditions. And most of them have served at some point in their lives in the US military, so they know how to protect themselves with a gun. |
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Subject: RE: BS: If the Bottom DOES fall out From: Ebbie Date: 04 Oct 08 - 02:20 PM Speaking of cemeteries- if not for the squeamish about us, wouldn't they be good spaces for community gardens? Coffins are lowered well below gardening depth. |
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Subject: RE: BS: If the Bottom DOES fall out From: Donuel Date: 04 Oct 08 - 03:05 PM GOOD NEWS maybe the kind of good that being in the eye of a hurricaine without wind but good none the less. Someone, no one knows who! , stuck the best possible option for us all into the bail out bill that George Bush unwittingly signed. It is the option for the Treasury Secretary to opt to implement stock share buy ins (like what Warren Buffet does) instead of only buying traxh with tax payer money. You see banks don't want the government moving into their house with the authority to throw out the freeloader crook. They just want cash via the free for all Paulson program. The option clause was worded very wisely but and its a big BUT Henry Paulson will have 60 days to dispose of as much of the 800 billion dollars as possible. A new Treasury secretary will then be able to use the stock clause to truely let taxpayers invest instead of giving cash to the compulsive gamblers to supposeldy pay off their gambling debt. So Good news if we use the inserted option and if Paulson doesn;t blow all the money in two months.. Finally someone overnight snuck in something good into a bill for a change. My blessing goes out to the annonymous savior. |
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Subject: RE: BS: If the Bottom DOES fall out From: Bee Date: 04 Oct 08 - 03:14 PM That would depend on the cemetery. The graveyard my family lie in had graves over 150 years old. The older coffins were of plain wood, and the land is bedrock with soil not so deep. Many coffins only had a couple feet of soil over them to begin with. I had the un-nerving experience as a teen of stepping too close to one of the older graves, which are often identified by their sunken appearance. My leg went into the grave halfway up my shin, and I don't know (nor care to) how much of what I felt and heard by way of crunchings and squashings was down to roots and earth or rotted wood and brittle bones. (Again, I am so sorry, Great-great-great-aunt Margaret!) The moral of that story is: even at your standard six feet, soil erodes, wood rots, empty spaces fill in eventually. It's best to take care walking near (and especially on) old graves, and gardening atop them, especially if using a plough or tiller, ought to be approached with delicacy. |
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Subject: RE: BS: If the Bottom DOES fall out From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor Date: 04 Oct 08 - 03:20 PM The markets are all about confidence. Our biggest problem now is that no one has confidence in the Bush administration. If Obama is elected things will turn around quickly. If McCain is elected and he appoints Gramm or any of his ilk to a cabinet position, God help us!! |
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Subject: RE: BS: If the Bottom DOES fall out From: GUEST,heric Date: 07 Oct 08 - 01:06 AM Did I say 40% gone? Oh, yeah, well that was yesterday. Today it's 47.56% (And I bought very conservative stuff.) Can only laugh I guess. |
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Subject: RE: BS: If the Bottom DOES fall out From: Ebbie Date: 07 Oct 08 - 01:10 AM Some years back, during the Silicon bust, my retirement funds lost more than a third of their value. Of course, it was all just on paper. |
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Subject: RE: BS: If the Bottom DOES fall out From: Janie Date: 07 Oct 08 - 01:52 AM I just moved, am not finding the neighborhood very welcoming thus far, and have no sun. I hate to think about cutting down oak trees to have a garden spot, but am seriously considering it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: If the Bottom DOES fall out From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 07 Oct 08 - 02:21 AM Sorry, forgot to post name... From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor Date: 04 Oct 08 - 03:20 PM If Obama is elected things will turn around quickly. This is complete nonsense!!! I've told you a dozen or more times, that regardless who 'wins' the election, that the dollar was going to be de-valuated, after the election(if it can wait that long). I've said a lot of 'right on' things in here, and all I get is arguments from starry eyed 'kumbaya-ers'....even when what I've said comes true in front of your very eyes! Not to mention shpeels on responsibility, in regards to reliance on the government for a number of things. Obama wants to 'give' us all these entitlement programs, which no one can pay for! The government CAN NOT continue to print fiat money, to pay for any of it. Obama promises to cut capital gain taxes for small businesses..only problem is..small businesses don't pay captial gains taxes..they pay business income taxes..but you just keep lapping up this crap, like the good little media fed robots that this nation has become! McCain is not much better! What you have here, is the two wings of a SOCIALIST party pushing through their agenda. I believe that this is the reason that so many people are undecided about who to vote for...nobody, in their gut feels 'right' about either one! Now we have had, for years, a capitalist/socialist system, but that, dear boys and girls, ladies and gentlemen, is about to change!! We are headed for a socialist republic...like the last 'SR' in USSR..which was (and is) an abysmal way of life. Gone will be all the perks of entitlements that we've grown so accustomed to. Fuel is going to go through the roof, credit, gone..inflation rising faster than a woody in the morning! Retirement pensions will be meaningless, if even around...social security, a memory....Jobs?..forget it!..even those ones that American citizens 'wouldn't take, so the illegal aliens had them!..All those lame-ass propaganda nonsense talking points will make you sick, when before you embraced them. We've been had, by a corrupt(remember me mentioning that??) political agenda for decades!!..which I've been pointing out to you, and NOW THE MEDIA IS FINALLY 'BRINGING IT UP' occasionally. I've implored you, as writers, and musicians to sing, write and speak against it...what have I gotten??..zilch(except for a few)!! Now is the time(maybe) to retrieve your heads from your posteriors, get off the bullshit party lines of idiocy, and get right...and confront it..ask the right questions..and in the meantime buckle your seat belts and and hang on...this is going to be a lot tougher that you've even imagined! God Bless, and stay safe! GfS |
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Subject: RE: BS: If the Bottom DOES fall out From: Stilly River Sage Date: 07 Oct 08 - 08:38 AM Obama wants to 'give' us all these entitlement programs, which no one can pay for! A typical GfS post. This Bush mess has put "paid" to a lot of initial plans any candidate may have formed. This crisis calls for staying the course the clean up the mess Bush has set in place, but the smart candidate will keep his eye on the middle-distance at the very least, and not just the immediate problem at his feet. If you want to struggle along as before, with one of the engineers of this mess, then go with McCain. If you want someone who will try to find rational solutions that move beyond hiring the heads of corrupt banks and institutions and is able to look at the larger picture, I think you have to choose someone who can think on his feet and keep a cool head while consulting experts from at least two parties. Obama fits the "white knight" role a lot better than McCain. The debates tonight will be interesting. Let's see if McCain can get an answer out of his mouth that suggests solutions to the problems and not simply unsubstantiated attaks on his opponent. SRS |
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Subject: RE: BS: If the Bottom DOES fall out From: wysiwyg Date: 07 Oct 08 - 10:36 AM Janie, container gardening or a community garden? ~Susan |
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Subject: RE: BS: If the Bottom DOES fall out From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 07 Oct 08 - 02:37 PM Wake up SRS...it's a bit bigger than you think.... |
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Subject: RE: BS: If the Bottom DOES fall out From: akenaton Date: 07 Oct 08 - 03:03 PM Yes you're right guest, UK banking system is in the process of collapse. Royal Bank and HBOS both lost almost 40% of their share value on today's trading. In the US, the Federal Reserve is by-passing the banks and propping up the real ecomomy. This is serious shit and everyone talks about "White Knights". The solution to this will be harder to uncover than the location of the Holy Grail, but the solution is in our hands. Not just SRS but all of us need to waken up to what is actually happening. This is time for REAL change and that won't come from Obama or McCain..Ake |
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Subject: RE: BS: If the Bottom DOES fall out From: Rapparee Date: 07 Oct 08 - 03:22 PM And it will take more that the current crop of gutless wonders in the US Congress, too. It's time to stop playing silly, stupid, name-calling games; time to stop dodging the hard actions, buckle down and get to work. Time's a-wastin'. And as the guy said, "The first thing to do when you're in a hole is to stop digging." |
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Subject: RE: BS: If the Bottom DOES fall out From: akenaton Date: 07 Oct 08 - 03:30 PM Good man yourself Rap!! |
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Subject: RE: BS: If the Bottom DOES fall out From: John on the Sunset Coast Date: 07 Oct 08 - 03:56 PM On October 9, 2002, the Dow bottomed out just below 7300. As I write this it is below 9500, off from a high this time last year of over 14000. How the mighty have fallen! Will the Dow turn around before 7300? |
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Subject: RE: BS: If the Bottom DOES fall out From: Stilly River Sage Date: 07 Oct 08 - 03:59 PM Guest from Sanity, get over yourself. |
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Subject: RE: BS: If the Bottom DOES fall out From: Stilly River Sage Date: 07 Oct 08 - 04:06 PM The only thing we as individuals can do right now is pay attention, get informed, not go bonkers drawing money out of otherwise sound funds and conversely not going nuts hoarding, and elect a president who wasn't an engineer of the problem at hand (Reagan was the architect). The rest of the world will have to work it out on its own. I'm not a big spender, but I'm sure my pocketbook will be impacted by all of this. Just what do GfS and Ake think they personally are going to do about this to fix things? I thought so. SRS |
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Subject: RE: BS: If the Bottom DOES fall out From: akenaton Date: 07 Oct 08 - 04:22 PM SRS...No one can do anything personally about this! This requires action by a large section of the community, especially taxpayers. Waiting for your "White Knight" to appear is not an option. |
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Subject: RE: BS: If the Bottom DOES fall out From: Stilly River Sage Date: 07 Oct 08 - 04:32 PM Electing a turd isn't an option either. |
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Subject: RE: BS: If the Bottom DOES fall out From: Stilly River Sage Date: 07 Oct 08 - 04:36 PM We're talking Wall Street "white knights" here, Ake, not fairy tales. In case you're confused. With the cash on hand in that bill last week, the govt. just got into the white knight business. |
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Subject: RE: BS: If the Bottom DOES fall out From: Janie Date: 07 Oct 08 - 04:53 PM You know, Susan, I'm trying to figure out if there might not be a few patches that get a combined 4 1/2 to 5 hours of light between the morning and the late afternoon sun. If so, I could do some container gardening of a few summer veggies that will straggle along with that little light. I know I can do a cool weather garden under coldframes after the leaves are off the trees. But no major food production is possible. If I'm out of work, or have my hours reduced due to the economy, I could participate in a community garden. Otherwise, I don't have time. On the otherhand, I notice a large, sufficiently sunny lot across the street that belongs with one of the two houses that bracket it. I haven't met any of neighbors over there, but they clearly are not gardeners. If hard-times came, I could approach them about letting me garden there in exchange for produce (or even propose a neighborhood community garden!) The biggest issue with my family is that we are scattered out. Mom and Dad have the biggest house that could accomodate us, but they live in West Virginia, where the economy has been in the pits a long time. As with Sinsull's family, my Mom's family consolidated households during the Depression. No one person usually could work more than a day or two per week, but among 6 adults working what they could, they scraped by. It would be pretty tough for Annie or I to find any part-time work there if we lost our jobs down here, or had our hours drastically cut. But we are pretty resourceful people, and we would come up with some kind of plan and move that would see to it we were all taken care of. |
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Subject: RE: BS: If the Bottom DOES fall out From: akenaton Date: 07 Oct 08 - 04:58 PM Electing a "turd" IS an option....in fact it's the only option! |
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Subject: RE: BS: If the Bottom DOES fall out From: akenaton Date: 07 Oct 08 - 05:08 PM Do you really, seriously think, that if the Dems were running the country this situation would not have occurred? I think maybe it's you who is a little confused. This little cracker won't be fixed by Party Politics. |
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Subject: RE: BS: If the Bottom DOES fall out From: Bee Date: 07 Oct 08 - 05:24 PM Janie, if you figure out where the most sun hits during growing season, you may be able to do a little judicious pruning of tree branches to get yourself another hour or so of sun on your garden patches. I did that here, without destroying the tree or ruining its shape. |
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Subject: RE: BS: If the Bottom DOES fall out From: Stilly River Sage Date: 07 Oct 08 - 06:04 PM There are quite a few veggies that can grow in shade, according to my organic guru. Herbs, Swiss chard and various sorts of peppers, he says (someone called and asked about growing plants indoors over the winter, with the assistance of fluorescent bulbs). I'd certainly want to give it a try. Do you have someplace "non-traditional," like out by the front sidewalk, where there is more sun for the broccoli and tomatoes? I find that no one seems to even notice or care hat I grow vegetables in my front yard amongst the flowers and shrubs. As for the rest of the argument, those two sour-pusses are not contributing anything useful, and they don't know any more than the rest of us, even if they like to say so. SRS |
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Subject: RE: BS: If the Bottom DOES fall out From: Bee Date: 07 Oct 08 - 06:15 PM Something I would recommend if one wants to try to really supplement one's food with a garden is to keep in mind things that store well without power, and for those with little time for canning and preserving; consider growing root vegetables as staple foods. Potatos have big yields for the space they occupy, and only need a cool dark place to store. Around here, anybody who grows a few rows of potatos ends up with more than enough for the winter. We seldom buy potatos because we're usually gifted with enough to last the winter. |
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Subject: ADD: IT'S A SANTA CLAUS WORLD From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 07 Oct 08 - 07:31 PM IT'S A SANTA CLAUS WORLD In 3/4 (Waltz Time) Its a Santa Claus world, If you will, Of ice cream and candy bars.. Eat your fill, And all kinds of fatness, That's bound to kill... But we love it that way-y-y-y-y.... We love it that way, everyday, And we hope that the bad times are here to stay.... In a Santa Claus world Lets go for a ride With cars shaped like bullets, With people inside.. On concrete that covers our whole countryside.. But we love it that way.. We love it that way, everyday, And we hope that the bad times are here to stay..... Fal-la-la la-la, la la la la la-a-a- In a Santa Claus world, Where everyone dines.. On gluttonous steaks, champagnes, and wines, With all virgin waitresses, High in the skies, On United Airlines..... But we love it that way, everyday, And we hope that the bad times are here to stay.. Fal-la-la-la-la, la la la la la-a-a-a In a Santa Claus world, The decorations appear, For Christmas, in April... The Savior appears.. With massed produced love and peace, everywhere... Ten Dollars a pair...... Yeah, its the spirit of giving, Through selling and buying..... Fal la la la la.............Its the spirit of dying..... Fal-la-la-la, la la la la la-a-a-........ We all love to sing our American waltz, Fa la la la la... It's our dream.... Come False.. Fal la-la-la la, la la la la, la-a-a-a-a |
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Subject: RE: BS: If the Bottom DOES fall out From: CarolC Date: 07 Oct 08 - 07:54 PM Sprouts are a good way to get vegetable nutrients in the winter in the absence of a garden, too. |
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Subject: RE: BS: If the Bottom DOES fall out From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 07 Oct 08 - 08:09 PM Thanks, Joe!,,I'll try to be more..ummm..conscientious, about remembering everything..next time!
But do you have a name of the songwriter for the song? -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: BS: If the Bottom DOES fall out From: Bee Date: 07 Oct 08 - 10:10 PM True, Carol. I've just never liked sprouts much, except in one form - sprouted wheat bread, or Essene bread. That stuff is so delicious it's dangerous. http://www.motherearthnews.com/Real-Food/1984-01-01/Essene-Bread.aspx I try to buy this whenever I'm in town, and someday I'd like to try making it myself. |
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Subject: RE: BS: If the Bottom DOES fall out From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 07 Oct 08 - 11:29 PM Vegetables to the right of me, Vegetables to the left of me...vegetables all around me......Maybe I'll be so healthy, from responsible eating that I won't need medicaid/medicare or a health plan...Good idea!!! |
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Subject: RE: BS: If the Bottom DOES fall out From: CarolC Date: 07 Oct 08 - 11:41 PM Yeah, eating vegetables is all anyone needs if they get hurt accidentally or become ill with a genetic disease. |
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Subject: RE: BS: If the Bottom DOES fall out From: Bee Date: 08 Oct 08 - 12:22 AM Carol, I will never understand why Americans haven't invested in universal single payer health care a long time ago. The American system puts terrible burdens on many and enriches insurance companies, and yet the US government spends more per capita on health care than countries with universal systems. Makes no sense. Our system needs a few fixes, but damn, if I'm sick, I get looked after, same day if it's serious. |
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Subject: RE: BS: If the Bottom DOES fall out From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 08 Oct 08 - 12:45 AM From: CarolC Date: 07 Oct 08 - 11:41 PM Yeah, eating vegetables is all anyone needs if they get hurt accidentally or become ill with a genetic disease. ..or even need eye care, from spending too much time on the computer... |
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Subject: RE: BS: If the Bottom DOES fall out From: Stilly River Sage Date: 08 Oct 08 - 01:01 AM I will never understand why Americans haven't invested in universal single payer health care a long time ago. Hillary was studying it, back when Bill was in office and she was "just the first lady." The insurance companies got wind of it and ran lots of negative issue ads and scared people so badly that the Clinton administration backed off. The wind is still blowing from that direction--the insurance companies make so much money out of this system that they will exert any level of painful pressure necessary to scare Americans into backing off of such an idea. SRS |
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Subject: RE: BS: If the Bottom DOES fall out From: CarolC Date: 08 Oct 08 - 01:06 AM Some of us make our living using the computer, so if we need eye care because of it, that's a very legitimate need. |
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Subject: RE: BS: If the Bottom DOES fall out From: michaelr Date: 08 Oct 08 - 01:08 AM GfS, look again. It's not socialism but fascism we're heading for. |
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Subject: RE: BS: If the Bottom DOES fall out From: GUEST,heric Date: 08 Oct 08 - 01:34 AM Yeah well there's something strange. The Democrats adamantly say that decoupling insurance from employment would be a disaster. I thik it's the best thing that could happen. Chances are that the insurance and possibly other lobbyists have bought them out. |
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Subject: RE: BS: If the Bottom DOES fall out From: GUEST,LSM Date: 08 Oct 08 - 02:53 AM The UK government has announced details of a rescue package for the banking system worth at least £50bn. It will initially make the extra capital available to eight of the UK's largest banks and building societies. In return for the funding, the government will receive preference shares in those institutions. The money will be used to prop up the banking system that has seen share prices plunging in recent weeks as banks have struggled to access funding. As part of the package, a further £200bn will be made available by the Bank of England for short-term borrowing to provide liquidity to banks and building societies. |
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Subject: RE: BS: If the Bottom DOES fall out From: akenaton Date: 08 Oct 08 - 03:18 AM "The money will be returned to UK taxpayers some time in the future" Ha fuckin' ha...IF there is ever any return from this bailout, the money will not be in the hands of taxpayers, but in the hands of the politicians. It is basically robbery just like America. If we want nationalisation it has to be the complete UK banking system, anything else simply cant work. This robbery has also been perpetrated against all the small shareholders and pension funds who will see their investments dwindlke away to nothing. |
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Subject: RE: BS: If the Bottom DOES fall out From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 08 Oct 08 - 03:29 AM From: michaelr Date: 08 Oct 08 - 01:08 AM GfS, look again. It's not socialism but fascism we're heading for. You look again!..I agree with you! what we have here is the LEFT wing(of socialism), and the Right wing (of socialism), moving their agenda upon us. When its all said and done, of course, it will take a police state, to enforce it. This charade we are in, is the movement of getting us either to 'vote' it in, or be forced upon us. Either way, the outcome is the same! Hey, God bless, and stay safe..plan ahead..., and if you are voting for one of these bozos, don't be fooled as to what they are! |
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Subject: RE: BS: If the Bottom DOES fall out From: Donuel Date: 08 Oct 08 - 11:25 AM Ralph had been trying to get a loan every way he knew how because he was life and death desperate. Every system that he trusted unremorsefully took more than half of his pension. He felt betrayed by Congress, accountants, Banks and a political system that passed out millions of dollars for 10 minutes of a billionaires time. By God if they take from me electronically with out so much as a how do you do or a reach around, he was going to get some of what they took from him back. Ralph suffered every fee and penalty the banks ever devised but put everything he had into one shaky bank account. Ralph went to the bank armed with a cell phone. He was about to close out his account. The bank warned him that whenever his account dipped below 1,200 dollars he would be subject to Bank fees. But he had a plan that played out like a dream the night before right before he fell into the first sound sleep he had had for months. Standing in an absurd line to close his account he squeezed his cell phone when it vibrated and startled him so much some people were startled in return. Ralph turned off all incoming calls. He needed the line open for split second timing when he got to the teller window. The teller looked exhausted when he snaked his withdraw slip under the bullet proof window. He was nervous but not so much as to alarm anyone. He had to wait for the moment right before he pressed the send button on his cell phone. Not too early, not too late. He was going to get that loan for the price of a returned check if only his timing was just right. He eyed the teller as she was entering his account number in the telex and then pushed the send button that made his whole body jerk with a jolt but was virtually unnoticed to others. His heart was beating fast. The send message was racing electrons to a buy now web address to purchase gold at the exact same amount of his closed bank account. The transaction went to his pay pal account linked to his current account that was being closed as signals were being sent back and forth across the country. The teller handed him his money and he cautiously left the bank. The drive home was nerve wracking since he did not know if he had just stolen a #### load of gold or not. He got home shit the blinds and looked on his computer to see he had the Pay Pal receipt for enough gold to make a solid 7 inch cube of gold. That's enough gold to weigh just under 1000 pounds. If and when the bank sorted out the identical withdrawal amounts he could be hit with a returned check fee, but Ralph was feeling he had his 1000 pounds of flesh. Gold went up that day about 25 dollars. It turns out Ralph's bank did get swallowed up and the newly hired bank examiners, all from the hoards of unemployed investment brokers from Wall Street, never did make sense of Ralph's account that day. |
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Subject: RE: BS: If the Bottom DOES fall out From: Donuel Date: 08 Oct 08 - 11:26 AM SHUT ! and I tried so hard not to use a bad word. |
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Subject: RE: BS: If the Bottom DOES fall out From: Stilly River Sage Date: 08 Oct 08 - 12:23 PM I think the British method is more sound than the U.S. one. Using government dollars to buy preferred shares sounds like it has a better chance at success than the U.S. buying "toxic investments" and letting the banks move blithely forward without that nasty baggage that the government will spend a lot of money managing and probably not get a lot of value back from it. It's the stinking waste left behind by mortgage brokers and bond bundlers. The British are letting the banks sort out their own mess this way, and they have a vested interest in making those mortgage (or whatever) transactions work, even if they have to be modified. The U.S. banks will have no such motivation if their mess is just magicked away. SRS |
