BS: The Debates: Members Only

Subject: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Bobert
Date: 30 Sep 08 - 08:10 AM

Well, the other "Debates" thread has been closed because it was highjacked by one ecertain GUEST and Joe Offer says that if we wnat a thread on the debates then we need a "members only" one so...

...given the fact that we have 3 more debates before the election I thought that now would be a good time to0 start the thread....

(I'm not sure what mechanism is in place to keep GUEST's out other than manually deleting their posts but that, I guess, is something for the moderators...)

B~

---

No offense intended to our Guests, but we had too many unknown posters in the previous Debates thread, and too many of them were there just to cause trouble. So, I will delete all posts in this thread that don't come from registered members. If you are a registered member and aren't logged in, it's OK to post. If you'd like to register, be sure to use a correct e-mail address.
-Joe Offer, Forum Moderator-

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 30 Sep 08 - 08:34 AM

I think I will record the VP debate and watch it in slow doses. I don't know if I can stand to sit straight through 90 minutes of such a lopsided contest. Biden will be verbally dueling with an un-armed opponent, or forced to suffer soft inconsequential pitches to compensate for Palin's lack of experience. I don't think Gwen will let THAT happen.

The Presidential debates will be interesting. Long, but interesting.

The troll who closed the last thread is typical of those who turn up here--they found a site that doesn't require membership to post and they aren't interested in the raison d'etre of the Mudcat site. They want to duke it out anonymously in a political discussion. Nasty as they want to be.

Delete. Repeat.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Barry Finn
Date: 30 Sep 08 - 08:50 AM

Well I don't expect much from the VP debate. I feel it will be to embrassing to MaCain once it's all over but I keep saying to myself wait & see, she may hold up after all but I think she's gonna resort to some low life form of puggilism. She's a fair boxer till she's in a corner, then it's just thrashing about for her. "I'll have to get back to you one this one".
I don't see MaCain doing any better than he did in the first round, miore likely worst, I think we've seen him at his best but I feel as if Obama's only getting warmed up with much more to come. Well, I can only hope for a better showing, cause it's not all that bright from where I'm getting rained on.

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Bill D
Date: 30 Sep 08 - 08:54 AM

I expect Palin to do as has been mentioned in other threads...have several memorized stock answers to various issues and plug them in wherever possible, but with fervor...causing her supporters and hard-core conservative to assert that "she did just fine, and it's not really necessary for her to be an 'expert' on every issue."

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: kendall
Date: 30 Sep 08 - 08:54 AM

I predict that Joe Biden will field dress Caribou Barbie.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Donuel
Date: 30 Sep 08 - 08:56 AM

oooooo members only,

do we need armbands?

IF we let Sarah be Sarah (whatever that entails) we can let trolls be trolls.

I will miss the Debate thread, especially my observation that at the end, it was Obama that walked 70 ft across the stage to reach across the aisle to shake John McCain's hand, which incensed John so much he immedietly began blaming his manager for allowing that "stunt" to occur.

Subject: BS: Regarding debate in general
From: GUEST,Slag
Date: 30 Sep 08 - 03:32 PM

I was sorry to see the "Debates" thread get side tracked and degenerate into something ugly. Anyone who has participated in formal debate can only shudder or at least shake their heads at what is foisted onto the public as "debate". There was a good conversation in the first part of that thread.

With regards to the "Presidential Debates" ( a misnomer as it should be the "Presidential Candidates Debate"), I thought it was rather disturbing that Lehere kept trying to get Obama and McCain to talk directly to each other. Obama tried to follow that direction a couple of times and McCain resisted it altogether and rightly so. The TOPIC ought to be addressed, not personalities. This is why formal debate is always in the third person if personage is addressed at all.

I would like to think that Obama also resisted this blatant prodding to "square off" at his opponent. Both men did a fine job in articulating their positions and ideas as well as points of difference. This really was one of the better debates I have watched. You have two very intelligent and articulate gentlemen for candidates.

The BS portion of this forum also has some very freewheeling debate and dialog and that is one of the main reasons, apart form the music, that I keep coming back here. I like the passion and the honesty (in most cases!) of the posters. I AM sorry to see some who, when they run out of wit, resort to viciousness and name calling. That has no place in the debate. And that little bit of information ought to be passed on to Mr. Lehere also.

An after-thought: I also have to recognize that a large percentage of Americans like things like Jerry Springer and Maury Povich and they want to see fireworks and name-calling. That may make great daytime TV but it really has no place in the serious consideration for the selection of the President of this powerful and influential country

Subject: RE: BS: Regarding debate in general
From: heric
Date: 30 Sep 08 - 03:37 PM

I agree – when Lehrer did that it was downright weird.

Openly and unashamedly taking time out for choreographing?

Subject: RE: BS: Regarding debate in general
From: Stringsinger
Date: 30 Sep 08 - 03:40 PM

A true debate deals with issues, not personalities.

There hasn't been a decent Presidential debate in decades.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Slag
Date: 30 Sep 08 - 04:21 PM

No, I hadn't seen that thread yet. Maybe I should reclaim my cookie and sign in as the member I am and join that thread. I've had so many computer problems that I'm a little "cookie-shy" right now!

Not mentioning any names but some Guest appear to be a characterization of left's idea of what a conservative is. Big Mick really hit the nail on the head! TROLL, tossing incendiaries! Such ham-handed chummers should be shunned from the get-go. If no one rises to "de bait" then the threads are much more likely to remain intact.

It's been my experience that "Button-pushers" just keep upping the ante until someone is so offended that they react. It's an evil game and if you happen to smell one of these turds floating by in our portion of the cyber stream a mod needs to be notified and have the offense REMOVED!

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Amos
Date: 30 Sep 08 - 04:22 PM

HEar, hear.


A

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Slag
Date: 30 Sep 08 - 04:24 PM

I wish to apologize for my choice of verbage. Just now I realized I was doing the very thing I was decrying. I let that Troll raise my ire to an uncivil level. With true regret, again, I apologize.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Alice
Date: 30 Sep 08 - 04:25 PM

When I woke up this morning, NPR news was quietly playing on the radio, and as I was dozing, I suddenly thought, "Tina Fey is on NPR!" Then I realized it was Palin's voice. I cringe watching her being interviewed. I won't be able to bear watching the debate. I'll read the transcript online while it is happening.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Beer
Date: 30 Sep 08 - 06:42 PM

I plan on watching maybe the last 1/2 hour if that is possible. Her high pitched winding voice reminds me of some commercials where by I turn the sound to mute.
Beer (adrien)

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: katlaughing
Date: 30 Sep 08 - 07:25 PM

I think I'll turn on the closed captioning and mute the whole thing!

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Alice
Date: 30 Sep 08 - 07:32 PM

that's a good idea, kat

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Bobert
Date: 30 Sep 08 - 07:34 PM

Yeah, Beer, her voice does kinda grate on ya'... Reminds my of a cranky elementary school teacher who needs to get laid... Ahhhh, not that I am volunteering for the job, mind you, even if she is a fox...

But, yeah, her voice is alot like fingernails on the chalk board...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Beer
Date: 30 Sep 08 - 07:51 PM

You just sent chill's up my spine in saying that Bobert.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Alice
Date: 01 Oct 08 - 10:01 AM

Andrew Halcro has an op-ed in the Christian Science Monitor about his experience in debating Sarah Palin:

I should know. I've debated Governor Palin more than two dozen times. And she's a master, not of facts, figures, or insightful policy recommendations, but at the fine art of the nonanswer, the glittering generality. Against such charms there is little Senator Biden, or anyone, can do.

On paper, of course, the debate appears to be a mismatch.

snip

On April 18, 2006, Palin and I sat together in a hotel coffee shop comparing campaign trail notes. As we talked about the debates, Palin made a comment that highlights the phenomenon that Biden is up against.

"Andrew, I watch you at these debates with no notes, no papers, and yet when asked questions, you spout off facts, figures, and policies, and I'm amazed. But then I look out into the audience and I ask myself, 'Does any of this really matter?' " Palin said.

While policy wonks such as Biden might cringe, it seemed to me that Palin was simply vocalizing her strength without realizing it. During the campaign, Palin's knowledge on public policy issues never matured – because it didn't have to. Her ability to fill the debate halls with her presence and her gift of the glittering generality made it possible for her to rely on populism instead of policy.

Palin is a master of the nonanswer. She can turn a 60-second response to a query about her specific solutions to healthcare challenges into a folksy story about how she's met people on the campaign trail who face healthcare challenges. All without uttering a word about her public-policy solutions to healthcare challenges.

So what does that mean for Biden? With shorter question-and-answer times and limited interaction between the two, he should simply ignore Palin in a respectful manner on the stage and answer the questions as though he were alone. Any attempt to flex his public-policy knowledge and show Palin is not ready for prime time will inevitably cast him in the role of the bully.

On the other side of the stage, if Palin is to be successful, she needs to do what she does best: fill the room with her presence and stick to the scripted sound bites.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 01 Oct 08 - 11:16 AM

Well, the VP candidate debate ha already been a success for McCain. Considering it as a Weapon of Mass Distraction, it's really cut down on the amount of time and space the media has been devoting to McCain's floundering over the past couple of weeks.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Alice
Date: 01 Oct 08 - 11:28 AM

being skilled at distraction

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Ron Davies
Date: 02 Oct 08 - 12:11 AM

Of course the other problem with the VP debate is that now the expectations are so low for dear Sarah that if she is semi-coherent, it will be counted as a triumph. And she will do nothing but attack Obama.

So I can already predict the Friday headline: "Gov Palin Shatters the 'Clueless' Image; Pit Bull Returns".

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 02 Oct 08 - 10:16 AM

If it looks like a troll and sounds like a troll. . . Urqhart, you're a troll.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Amos
Date: 02 Oct 08 - 10:20 AM

A series of very smart questions that should be posed to the Veeps.

And Urq, you may not be a troll in your own eyes, but in others' you are being, at least, an arrogant and conceited bigot.


A

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: PoppaGator
Date: 02 Oct 08 - 12:41 PM

Who's Urquhart? Was a post deleted?

I'm willing to defer to the sensibilities of others, but nasty messages don't bother me nearly as much as messages that refer to other posts that I can't see and can't judge for myself.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 02 Oct 08 - 12:59 PM

He made a racist post, which has now gone. Don't think you'd want to see that left visible.

XG

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: PoppaGator
Date: 02 Oct 08 - 01:46 PM

Thanks, John, I suppose that's enough to satisfy my curiosity.

Is this person a member? Or did his post temporarily slip past the "members only" qualification for this discussion?

I suppose there's no way to enforce "members only" except retroactively...

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Bobert
Date: 02 Oct 08 - 07:35 PM

I don't think this person was a member, P-Gator... And I really can't say that his writing style reminded me of any past members or even GUESTs...

I thought that it was satire but this GUEST did step way over the line...

Now back to the debates... Seems that Biden can't win for losin' tonight... He has a couple hundred rules he has to foloow to a "T" in order to break even and Ms. Sarah just needs to complete her sentences to be declared the winner... Seems like a dual standard to me but, hey???

B~

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Riginslinger
Date: 02 Oct 08 - 09:36 PM

She's killing him!

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: TIA
Date: 02 Oct 08 - 11:26 PM

...anything your heart desires, your dreams come true....

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 02 Oct 08 - 11:28 PM

I only watched twenty minutes, but I saw her wink twice. It certainly is a novelty.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 02 Oct 08 - 11:36 PM

She's charming, but she is not qualified, and when she got questions she didn't want to answer she answered with the closest talking point she had learned.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 02 Oct 08 - 11:39 PM

I should say that I was HOPING for a Palin train wreck tonight, and she avoided that, but she didn't have many citations in the form of documentable chapter and verse to drop into the conversation. It will be interesting to see what the fact checker folks come up with.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Donuel
Date: 02 Oct 08 - 11:43 PM

The one newsorthy announcement Palin made was the constituional expansion of the powers of the Vice Presidency.

What constitutional ammendment was that? Being a memeber of both the executive branch and legislative branch? The power to go to war?
What?


The Palin non answers and attack phrases such as democrats waving the white flag of surrender will be the most common salient commentaries.

So let me make an observation no one else will...

In high definition I noticed that her chest and neck were full of thousands of skin tags (a skin condition of skin growths). This condition can be extreme or minor depending upon the area of skin involved.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Donuel
Date: 02 Oct 08 - 11:59 PM

I should know since I have about a dozen myself but she has countless skin tags on just the visible area of her neck and upper chest.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Little Hawk
Date: 03 Oct 08 - 12:07 AM

They appeared to both be conducting themselves rather well, and engaging in predictable rhetoric from their own points of view while they engaged mainly in attacking the other side's presidential candidate (and/or the past errors of the Bush administration, which are legion). I found Biden's points of view more tolerable when it comes to foreign policy, but that was no surprise. Sarah Palin showed that she is not nearly as incompetent under pressure as most people here would fervently wish she was... ;-) But McCain's policies and general attitude toward the world still stink to high heaven regardless, whereas Obama's are considerably more reasonable.

Israelis will mostly be delighted if McCain wins in November. Just about every other nation in the world will be horrified if he is elected president.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Janie
Date: 03 Oct 08 - 12:07 AM

She spoke in sound bites. I didn't watch it - listened to it on Public Radio, so I missed the winks. It is pretty scary to me that McCain, whom I have generally respected to the extent I respect any politician even while strongly disagreeing with him, has chosen her to be his running mate. I thought he cared about this country in close to the same measure he cares about his ambitions to be president.

Like Maggie said, she certainly sounded charming, but there is little or no substance. She has an ideology without depth of knowledge. She had been handed a script and knew not to veer from it.

I found it curious that she persistently invoked Reagan.

I don't much identify with all the hockey and soccer mom stuff. I always feel like a fish out of water at my son's soccer and lacrosse games and practices. Her world is very small.

Biden handled himself very well, I thought, and clearly demonstrated he has the knowledge and experience to step in as president if that should be necessary. He actually answered the questions, and intelligently refuted Palin's "sound bite" assertions and rebuttals.

Palin didn't lose any votes for McCain among those who are already in his camp, or have one foot there and the other already moving in that direction. But i don't think she gained any votes for him among those who are still undecided.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Little Hawk
Date: 03 Oct 08 - 12:23 AM

"I found it curious that she persistently invoked Reagan."

You do, Jeri? Why? Hell, he's virtually a secular saint to most conservative Americans.

That's not the way I see him, I might add. I think his policies were a fiscal and international disaster in a number of ways...but he had the style to remain quite popular despite all of that. Why, it was almost like having "Pa Cartwright" in the White House...maybe even better! ;-) He was the perfect front man to represent the $ySStem and play "frontier daddy" to America....a Madison Avenue dream of a chief executive.

Clinton was not bad at that too, but he was too sleazy. It doesn't help the "frontier daddy" image any when you fool around with the gals down at the saloon and then lie about it under oath. No siree.

God-fearin' frontier daddys NEVER cheat on their wives! Leastways, not so's you'd git to hear about it, anyways.

Yes, Biden handled himself very well. So did Palen, I think. No one really screwed up. Neither of them stand to lose any people who were already in favor of them anyway (note Riginslinger's delighted reaction to Palin's respectable performance and Biden's respectable performance. He thinks she destroyed Biden....heh! It's amazing how the made-up-already mind filters whatever it sees and hears to suit its preconditions, wishes, and established beliefs.).

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 03 Oct 08 - 12:58 AM

The twenty minutes I saw got Joe Biden an A+.

My favorite moments were Palin's discussion of "Bosniacs," and her line that "McCain is the man we need to leave."

Cheap laughs, I know, but deep down a slighlty nervous laugh: Even though this was just an irrelevant VP debate, it actually cemented me into an Obama vote with no more misgivings.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: DougR
Date: 03 Oct 08 - 01:28 AM

As I said in another thread, Gov. Palin ate Joe Biden's lunch.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 03 Oct 08 - 07:12 AM

Evidently that phrase does not have the same sexual connotation in the USA as in the UK - where "lunchbox" refers to the bulge in the front of tight shorts on a man...

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Lox
Date: 03 Oct 08 - 08:18 AM

Sorry moderators - I forgot to log in - feel free to delete my previous post - here it is again under my logged in moniker


___________________________________


The Palin Biden debate started pretty weirdly.

She seemed to put her fingers in here ears and smile.

She stated that McCain has always warned about the current financial crisis, and then when she was asked by Biden to comment on McCains voting record on deregulation of the financial sector, she changed the subject to Tax.

Biden pointed this out, and repeated the question, as did the moderator (just in case she didn't hear or forgot I suppose) - Palin ignored it again.

She has a lot of nerve.

Will Charm win Americas hearts again?

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Bill D
Date: 03 Oct 08 - 10:18 AM

She stated she would answer the questions SHE wanted to, and not necessarily what was asked: she advocated expanding the powers OF the VP even before she has the job: she plugged in slogans and verbal flag-waving every time her knowlege wasn't up to the task: she repeated over & over...again & again...repeatedly... accusations about Obama, Biden and Democrats in general which have been disproved many times. (about how Obama 'voted', about taxes, about the status of military actions..etc.) She also keeps pretending that HER qualifications as a 'business owner' and mayor and short-term governor are sufficient to match up to Biden's 25 years in the Senate or Obama's years at various jobs.

well...after all....what COULD she say? She was coached well, but she still misstated several facts and glossed over McCain's ability to switch positions with the wind, sometimes within hours or days.

All in all, she, by necessity, substituted 'feisty', cute, and 'maverick' for knowlegable, qualified and educated.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Riginslinger
Date: 03 Oct 08 - 10:24 AM

The mainstream media is now linking phrases like "you betcha", and "doggone it," along with a few winks and clips of her cutting off her g's on words like goin', makin', and so on.
               This is going to rally voters behind her faster than anything else they could do or say.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: TIA
Date: 03 Oct 08 - 10:42 AM

Hey DougR - horsepucky

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Ebbie
Date: 03 Oct 08 - 11:10 AM

aaaaggggghhhhhhhhh Don't tell me that in Palin we have Reagan in skirts!

A couple of thoughts here:

I'm glad that she performed better than I feared. As a woman and an Alaskan and a politician she was not an obvious train wreck. As another woman and an Alaskan I'm glad for that. After the elections she has to return to Alaska as governor and it would have been nigh on impossible to do if she'd had to come back with her stock completely shot. This way she and her handlers can blame the "liberal media" and power-hungry Democrats for her failures.

The operative word, of course, is "performed". She had good style but the main thing she demonstrated is that she can regurgitate creditably on demand.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Oct 08 - 11:18 AM

Saw enough to tell me it wasn't worth seeing the rest. No meltdowns on either side, and anybody watchingwith a predispositiion to either cabsduadate is going to think he or she was the winner.

It occurred to me that maybe maybe Palin's mispronunciations were a nod in the direction of people who like Bush. I mean stuff like "noocular" and "EyeRan". A sort of hint not to worry too much about flannel about things changing - "if Bush said it that way, it has to be the right way to say it".

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 03 Oct 08 - 11:24 AM

I think this is a better place to ask what I've already referred to in another thread:

At least twice, and maybe three times, in trying to bolster her experience and credibility, she said something like "I have the experience, as mayor, as governor, and as oil and gas" (or was it "energy"?) "regulator, to . . ."

Have I been asleep and missed something. Has she indeed held any position as a regulator of oil and gas? If so, I've missed it.

My pure guess is that she's trying to get double credit, as it were, out of her brief gubernatorial tenure, sort of saying, "Not only have I been governor, but as governor one of my functions was in regulation of the oil and gas industry."

Can someone here enlighten me about her occupational background?

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Riginslinger
Date: 03 Oct 08 - 11:31 AM

"After the elections she has to return to Alaska as governor..."


                Only unti January 20th, after that she'll be in Washington.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Riginslinger
Date: 03 Oct 08 - 11:32 AM

"Has she indeed held any position as a regulator of oil and gas?"


                She's been known to use GAS-EX tablets.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Ron Davies
Date: 03 Oct 08 - 11:37 AM

So, Doug still has his ideological blinders on tight, to avoid, at all costs, actually seeing anything. Are we surprised?

As I predicted, she shook off the Valley Girl rep.

But Biden was much stronger than I had thought he would be--fortunately.

I was afraid he'd just pontificate until his time ran out on a given question. But instead he took the fight to McCain right from the start--and put his opponent on the defense.

Among other things, there's no question who owns the middle-class tax cut issue: Obama/Biden.

And facts are still a foreign concept to dear Sarah. Why deal with them when you can again regurgitate a half-digested talking point?   Biden even pointed out that in addition to having no facts, Gov. Palen had not even tried to answer the question--more than once.



And as the WSJ points out today, quoting Biden:   facts matter.




As for Mr. "She's killing him". So much for his alleged opposition to organized religion. It's fairly obvious that a fundamentalist is fine with him as long as the fundamentalist wears lipstick. I'm sure if Jerry Falwell had known that, he would have worn lipstick too. I suppose we'll have to call Mr. "She's killing him" Mr. Hypocrite from now on.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: katlaughing
Date: 03 Oct 08 - 11:57 AM

She kept trying to relate to the middle class, billing herself and husband as on par with regular "hockey moms" etc. As Janie said, her world is really quite small. She said, "And I'll bet you, you're going to hear some fear in that parent's voice, fear regarding the few investments that some of us have in the stock market. Did we just take a major hit with those investments?"

I'd like to know what middle class she is talking about! WE don't have any investments to worry about nor do most of the middle class folks we know.

It's the same thing with the worthless $5,000 tax credit McCain and she would like us to use to buy health insurance. It won't work that way. Folks will get it off their taxes, sure, but they won't have the cash to spend; it will just give them a tiny bit more, maybe, of a refund, to pay down on their already existing bills, forget getting any kind of health care. These two are really narrow and out of touch.

I know it's not a popular thing to say, but I still am appalled at what she is putting her children through. That baby and pregnant teen need their mom more than ever; they don't need to be dragged around and trotted out for every event like this. The baby being passed from hand to hand seems so symbolic, to me, of the exploitation for votes.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 03 Oct 08 - 12:17 PM

Tax cuts tax cuts tax cuts!!
They do it over here too. When is the stupid electorate going see through this tax cut crap?
They give you 50 a month more in your wage packet, and take 75 a month back in sales taxes and all the other little things we HAVE to pay to live.
In the UK, Income Tax has gone down, and indirect taxes have soared, but the over all tax take is higher than ever.
I despair for the poor suckers who are taken in by this crap.

XG

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: CapriUni
Date: 03 Oct 08 - 12:38 PM

I didn't see any of the Couric interview, so I didn't know exactly how ugly a train wreck the debate might have been for her.

...I got an idea, however, when I heard the pundits saying, afterward, how well she had done, compared to expectations.

That was doing well? Every line was coming out of her mouth was delivered with a head cheerleader's grin -- even when she was discussing war, and families on the brink of poverty. And she flagged the issues she didn't understand, by saying out loud that she didn't want to answer that question, so she wasn't going to. True: Politicians have be not-answering questions since the Ancient Greeks invented voting. But they generally don't say that's what they're doing as if it were a good thing.

Now, to be fair, I do have criticisms of the Obama Campaign's talking points.

I wish they'd drop the "Tax Breaks for 95% of Americans" line. The true statistic is, according to FactCheck.org: 95% of working families with children, which is 81% of America's entire population. That's not a lily that needs gilding, in my not-so humble opinion, and the second number sounds less fiscally reckless.

Biden also repeated the line that McCain voted against alternative energy 20 times. Again, according to FactCheck.org, McCain voted against alternative engery outright 11 times, and for the other 9 votes, he simply voted against making alternative energy mandatory. 20 is a nice, round, number, and it sounds impressive. But the Obama/Biden campaign could, if they chose, make the truth just as impressive, if they word their pitch something like this: "In 20 votes that have come up in front of the Senate, McCain has consistantly voted to allow corporations to continue with status quo in regards to alternative energy..."

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Little Hawk
Date: 03 Oct 08 - 12:44 PM

Still beating the dead horse, eh, Ron?

Everything in your post makes good sense until the last paragraph...where you try your usual cheap shot of trying to cast Rig as a "hypocrite" for supporting Palen and McCain (because Rig claims to be anti-religious).

I've already explained to you in great detail, Ron, that Rig's favoring Palen and McCain has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with his views on religion one way or another...it has to do with a host of other matters (primarily the fact that he can't stand Obama for some reason...I suppose because Obama took away his dream of seeing Hillary Clinton elected).

He could just as well oppose Obama for anti-religious reasons too, Ron. Remember Reverend Wright and all that BS? Obama is also overtly Christian.

Give it up. Stick to REAL stuff and you are on solid ground. Try to cast Rig as a "hypocrite" over this religion BS and you are not. ALL the candidates are overtly religious, as they MUST be if they are going to run for high office in the USA. The American public will not elect an openly declared atheist.

Rig IS an openly declared atheist...and there's nothing hypocritical about it. He hates religion with a pathological hatred which is, in my opinion, completely irrational, but it's not hypocritical. He HAS no officially atheist candidate out there whom he can vote for. Therefore he must either support a religious candidate or support no one at all.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 03 Oct 08 - 12:50 PM

Last night Biden said it was 95% of households. We are a household without children and would get a tax break if Obama/Biden were, as Palin would say, so privileged as to be able to serve this great country God willing.

They, Obama and Biden, also say 95% of WORKING People. I suspect that is true looking at income distributions. Certainly the number of working people making less than 150K is closer to 95% than 81%.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 03 Oct 08 - 12:54 PM

Capri, I checked your link and could not find the specific promise.

But, on the whole, as I have heard it phrased, I believe that the promise is in the ball park.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 03 Oct 08 - 01:15 PM

Little Hawk, among the many things I read Rig saying since he was in the tank for Hillary and Hillary was defeated, was that he would support MCCain/Palin as a protest against religion in politics, I think it was because She was more open about it than Obama.

I wouldn't call that hypocritical per se. But I might think it unwise. Ron does have a justification to call him on it given Rigs stated position. But hypocrite dies seem a bit strong.

If I may make and observation on Rig's position, I would say that he has been consistently ABO (Anybody But Obama) and was against Obama before the announced support of Faith Based Social Services. That was just one more feature of Obama that he could complain about. Obviously if religiousness influencing Presidential behavior was his primary concern then the logical choice would be anybody but Palin. But his long standing dislike of Obama is somehow over coming that seemingly logical point of view.

Rig,
Outside of your position on Obama, You seem to have a lot in common with Bill Maher.
Are you a fan? Do you plan to see his new movie?

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Bill D
Date: 03 Oct 08 - 01:17 PM

it's only a side issue, but not bothering to learn correct pronunciation of words you may be require to USE in office tyells me something about a candidate.

I am, like McGrath, tired of 'nook-you-ler' and Eye-rack and Eye-ran.
Does she do it on purpose to sound like 'one of us'?

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Donuel
Date: 03 Oct 08 - 01:21 PM

My neighbor is a GOP block captain of sorts. He is Jewish but does not engage in any conversations about his feelings toward Isreal.

He has plenty of McCain stickers and signs. Come to think about it, I bet that he is the one who has annoymously challenged my right to right to vote for the last 3 years. ITs a technique called caging and only requires the appearence of a returned letter fromt he voter's home address.

Isrealis will understand the advantage of intelligence at the helm and will not regret a McCain loss.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: catspaw49
Date: 03 Oct 08 - 01:26 PM

Ya' know I'd have thought she would have been better "handled" on those words. Plus, it seemed as though the questions were well crafted so she'd use them.

I'm with Bill.........and if it is a part of her "Joe Six-Pack" routine, it seems more shitkicker than Presidential, Someone said Biden looked and sounded "Presidential" and she more "Mayoral."

Works for me............'Course I don't want her as mayor either.

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Genie
Date: 03 Oct 08 - 01:44 PM

After Palin's lame attempt to recapture a memorable, endearing soundbite by doing a feeble imitation of a line from the 1984 debate, I was waiting for Biden to channel Lloyd Bentsen from 1988:

"I new Ronald Reagan. Ronald Reagan was a friend of mine. Madame, you're no Ronald Reagan."

Of course, I knew he wouldn't go for such low-hanging fruit, but maybe Keith Olberman can do it after the fact.

And, much as I blame Reagan's policies for a lot of the dowslide to disaster we've been on since 1981, Sarah Palin IS no Ronald Reagan. (Thank goodness!)   She's had two major high-visibility chances to come across as "folksy" in a friendly, compassionate, non-divisive way, and both times she's basically drawn a line in the sand and said "Our side good. Their side bad." She comes across as totally dismissive of the opposing party, twisting the facts and lying about them, even while (in the debate) spouting the mantra of "getting beyond politics" and "working across the aisle."    Ronald Reagan - unfortunately for us, I think - had an amazing ability to make people who seriously disagreed with his policies THINK he was their friend. His policies could be stabbing you in the back but it was hard NOT to like him.   I don't see that in Palin. At least not in her snide, divisive, wisecracking performances at the RNC and the debate with Biden.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Riginslinger
Date: 03 Oct 08 - 02:01 PM

"She comes across as totally dismissive of the opposing party..."


               That's because the opposing party continues to nominate weak candidates, so it's hard to take them seriously.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: PoppaGator
Date: 03 Oct 08 - 03:05 PM

I was about to thrown in my two cents worth, but now I am reluctant, because I'd be immediately following Rig and might be interpreted as responding to him.

Plus, he's gotten me so angry at his stubborn insistance upon being a dumbass, that I forgot what I wanted to say.

I just said my piece a few minutes ago on that other debate thread ~ VP Debate Entertainment. If you care to read my opinion, look over there.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Michael Harrison
Date: 03 Oct 08 - 03:28 PM

Palin is a "head-in-the-sand," flag waving nin-cum-poop,that, unfortunately Americans just love to elect to office because they won't tell us what is really happening - they tell us what we want to hear. Palin is, I'm afraid, the weapons of mass destruction that we could not find in Iraq - they are right here at home.

Palin will be going back to Alaska in early November; but, it is most unfortunate that in four years she will be returning and next time she will have four more years experience, learning, skills and abilities that will require Obama to absolutely excell in his first term to defeat her for a second. Considering the barrel of shit that
Bush has left for Obama, it is highly unlikely that he will be reelected as the right-winged braying asses are going to be all over him as they were with Uncle Bill Clinton.

I could complain about the whole "debate," but I won't; instead, please know that, for me, the height of insincerity and the insurance of her having a plasticene heart was when Palin came out and nicely asked, "Can I call you Joe?" That was not a move to be friendly, but rather, a method of phoniness to set it up so she could use the phrase, "Say it ain't so, Joe" later in the debate - what bullshit. If I am correct, she didn't refer to Senator Biden as "Joe" except when she used that phrase - which I don't think she even wrote.

It is really time folks, for this country to drop the "American Idol" approach to electing government officials - we need to be electing statesmen who are put in office for the substance of their policies, not their phoney words and plastic smiles. I am sick and tired of the Reagans and Bushs and Palins and I know we can do better than this nonsense. How about a Lincoln, or an Adams or a Jefferson, or a Franklin? No, not Franklin, he's too good as an outside agitator keeping the officials in line and actually doing something; besides, he had a "Clintonesque" reputation, and heck, that just wouldn't work in todays politics, by golly - you betcha!

Cheers,............mwh

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Little Hawk
Date: 03 Oct 08 - 03:46 PM

Yes, Jack, I agree that Rig's choice in that respect is probably unwise... ;-) But what it is based on, as you pointed out, is merely the fact that his whole position in this election is: Anyone But Obama!

And that's all there is to it.

It wouldn't matter what Obama did now or said...Rig wouldn't like it. He is emotionally charged against Barack Obama in the same way that some people here are emotionally charged against Hillary Clinton or John McCain. He clearly despises Obama and would vote for anyone in any party rather than for Obama. Nothing is likely to change that.

And I don't believe it's based on any race prejudice on his part either. He simply has decided that Barack Obama is a no-good candidate, period, for reasons that make sense to him, whether or not they do to you, me or Ron Davies.

It makes no sense to accuse Rig of hypocrisy regarding his anti-religious views over this. It makes no sense to accuse him of racism either.

But, oh my! Isn't it tempting for those who like to hurl mean personal epithets and character slurs at their political opponents....

Why not argue with him on matters of substance and policy instead? That's what I would suggest.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Genie
Date: 03 Oct 08 - 04:07 PM

[[[Riginslinger :
"She comes across as totally dismissive of the opposing party..."

         That's because the opposing party continues to nominate weak candidates, so it's hard to take them seriously.]]]
By your take, then, the Republicans should NOT be talking about putting politics aside and "working across the aisle."    If your own party is the only one with candidates worth taking seriously, why should you not be ignoring the opposing party altogether.

Palin and McCain keep making big noises about "bipartisanship," "working across the aisle," and getting beyond political divisiveness -- all the while ridiculing and condemning the entire Democratic party (except for Joe Lieberman) as not having any policies or candidates with any merit.

I'm not sure "bipartisanship" is such a good thing in cases where one party or another is advocating policies that would be harmful to our country and the world.   Personally, I think it's time for the pendulum to swing way back away from the neocon policies of Reagan, Bush 41, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Bush 43, McCain, etc.   But I do think the Democratic leadership in Congress and Obama and Biden have shown willingness to compromise and work together with the Republicans -- a lot more than I would advocate, on some issues, e.g., the bailout bill. It hasn't been the Democrats in the Senate who've done record numbers of filibusters when they've been in the minority during the past 30 years.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Riginslinger
Date: 03 Oct 08 - 04:16 PM

Yes, of course, one wouldn't launch a filibuster if one wasn't the minority party, at least not very often.

               But I didn't say there were no qualified candidates in the other party, it's just that because of the caucus system, and the way they run the nominating contests, the best candidates rarely get the nomination.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: heric
Date: 03 Oct 08 - 04:21 PM

I didn't hear her say can I call you Joe, and I don't know if she used it only the one time, but:

The other reason to do that was to contrast Obama's perhaps/arguably presumptuous use of "John."

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Genie
Date: 03 Oct 08 - 04:22 PM

C'mon, Rig,

This current Republican minority in the Senate has set all-time records for filibusters - staging more of them in their first year after the 2006 elections than in any previous 2-year congressional session.    That means they outdid both the Democrats and their own Republican party when it comes to being obstructionist while in the minority.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Little Hawk
Date: 03 Oct 08 - 04:23 PM

"the best candidates rarely get the nomination"

No kidding! I would have nominated Dennis Kucinich and/or Ron Paul.

The candidates who get the nomination are the ones who play ball most effectively and cooperatively with the established Big Money interests at the top of the "food chain".

By definition, those are not the best candidates. In fact, they may be among the worst candidates.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Genie
Date: 03 Oct 08 - 04:28 PM

Heric,
Barack Obama and John McCain have known each other for several years in the senate. I imagine most Senators are on a first-name basis with each other after serving together that long.   (And I'd say calling a 4-year colleage "John" or "Barack" is a sight more respectful than refusing to even look at him or acknowledge him as an equal.)
Sarah Palin had never met Joe Biden before last night, I believe. They wouldn't be expected to be on a first-name basis without first asking permission.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: heric
Date: 03 Oct 08 - 04:53 PM

I didn't mean it WAS disrespectful, but I'd bet that telling Palin to ask first was to draw the contrast (unless it was also to set-up that uninspired quip.)

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: CapriUni
Date: 03 Oct 08 - 04:53 PM

Jack the Sailor --

Sorry. I linked only to the home page; you have to dig a little deeper to see their analysis of individual claims.

The tax statistics were cited in

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Ron Davies
Date: 03 Oct 08 - 06:05 PM

Mr. Hypocrite has been pathetically whining for months, if not years, about the alleged terrible evils wrought by organized religion, especially in public life.

Anybody for whom organized religion is truly a deep-dyed villain would be a strong opponent of the McCain/Palen ticket. There is no question who is the only fundamentalist of the 4 presidential/VP candidates. And it ain't Obama or Biden. Clue: which one looks forward to the "End Times"?

Mr. Hypocrite is welcome to rebut this--if possible.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Little Hawk
Date: 03 Oct 08 - 06:14 PM

Oh, come now. Why would he waste his time on a complete non-sequitor like that? Just to make you happy? ;-) I don't think so.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Bobert
Date: 03 Oct 08 - 06:29 PM

She reminds me of a muscian who only has a few songs down... Lucky for her that she isn't going to hjave to do this again soon because if it took a month to teach her the few songs she sang last night she would be in trouble, big time...

The interesting thing tho is that with the 12 or so dongs she learned very well that she had a hard time choosing which one to do in response to the question... And that is not a good thing... It does not invoke confidence in the voter that she can actually, ahhhhh, think or is knowledgeable...

Me thinks that "buyer's remorse" is beginning to take a toll on the McCain/Palin ticket...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Michael Harrison
Date: 03 Oct 08 - 06:31 PM

Heric: I do believe, nay, I know, that between the time that Biden and Palin emerged from backstage and the time that the first question
was asked - Palin looked at Biden and asked, "Can I call you Joe?"
That is a fact, all you have to do is review the "debate" film. My contention is that she was being pretentious in that she was not asking him if she could call him, "Joe" out of respect, but rather, the question was asked so that she could use the phrase, "Say it ain't so, Joe," which is a very well known line from the life of "Shoeless" Joe Jackson who was accused of cheating in the 1908 Black Sox Scandal (movie: Eight Men Out).

I believe she asked Biden's permission so to give forth a sense of respect, but, she never called him "Joe" until three-quarters of the way through the "debate" when she throws out her quip from "Eight Men Out." Sorry folks, but: McCain/Palin - thanks; but, no thanks. Cheers,.....mwh

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 03 Oct 08 - 06:41 PM

I believe it and it's a good one - I just said I don't know because I only saw part of it. No way I'm watching all of it.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 03 Oct 08 - 07:34 PM

As soon as she said can I call you Joe he should have said you can call me Joe Sixpack. mg

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Stringsinger
Date: 03 Oct 08 - 07:41 PM

Sarah Palin has the most irritating voice that I've heard in a long time. She is like a wind-up doll pull-string toy spouting the usual parrot-like Republican platitudes. She is being
given credit for not falling on her behind in the debates but she had nothing of substance to add to it and I hope that we can keep her from being anywhere near the presidential role.
It would be worse than Bush in a dress. She is an issuance from John McClone.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Donuel
Date: 03 Oct 08 - 07:48 PM

Genie for cartoon purposes I will go for low hanging fruit, hell I'll go for that rotten apple down in the dirt.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Bobert
Date: 03 Oct 08 - 07:55 PM

Yeah, Strings, rememeber that woman from "Laugh In" who was a grade school teacher??? She would try to get her class controlled by first saying, "Class" and end up screaming at the top of her lungs before saying "Thank you" after the class was scared to death that this woman was about to get out the Glock and pop a few of them...

This is Sarah...

It's really too bad 'cause she is as cute as cute can be... Until she opens her mouht and then it's like "The Nanny"...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: katlaughing
Date: 03 Oct 08 - 08:13 PM

mg, that would have been hilarious if he had answered that way!

THIS is what all people should be focussing on, from the debate, imo. She went from asking what the VP does to this:

"Of course, we know what a vice president does. And that's not only to preside over the Senate and will take that position very seriously also. I'm thankful the Constitution would allow a bit more authority given to the vice president if that vice president so chose to exert it in working with the Senate and making sure that we are supportive of the president's policies and making sure too that our president understands what our strengths are...

"... our founding fathers were very wise there in allowing through the Constitution much flexibility there in the office of the vice president. And we will do what is best for the American people in tapping into that position and ushering in an agenda that is supportive and cooperative with the president's agenda in that position. Yeah, so I do agree with him that we have a lot of flexibility in there, and we'll do what we have to do to administer very appropriately the plans that are needed for this nation."

Keep her the eff OUT of Washington!!

I also heard on NPR this morning that she is done with the media. She will no longer answer to any of the media; she will be available to "talk directly with the voters." She will be in CO this weekend at a "private fundraiser."

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 03 Oct 08 - 08:13 PM

Back when she was training for the Beauty Queen contest, someone drilled into her--"Smile, smile, smile, smile!"

And she learned her lesson thoroughly. She smiles and smiles, but it's not real.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Donuel
Date: 03 Oct 08 - 08:48 PM

No one's motives are pure, everbody lies


JOHN McCAIN IN THE HOSPITAL

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Beer
Date: 03 Oct 08 - 08:51 PM

Todd Palin seems to be a very quiet guy. I wonder why?
Bobert,
Wasn't that scene also in the album "Up in Smoke" by Cheech and Chong when the Nun (sister) is trying to introduce Sergeant Steatenko(sp.) to the class?
Beer (adrien)

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Oct 08 - 08:56 PM

I liked Joe Biden for the first time watching the VP debate.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Oct 08 - 09:28 PM

Was anyone besides me totally distracted by that bit of her bangs that kept wiggling every time she blinked her eyes? I had to stop looking at her if I wanted to hear anything she said.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: John O'L
Date: 03 Oct 08 - 09:30 PM

Carol -

Don't think for a moment it wasn't planned.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Oct 08 - 09:31 PM

LOLOL!

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Little Hawk
Date: 03 Oct 08 - 09:53 PM

Well, here's the funny thing...I'd actually rather see Sarah Palin as president than John McCain. Why? Well, I don't agree with her in general...but I also don't think she is demented. She appears to be intelligent and mentally fit. I consider McCain to be mentally unstable and simply not fit for the job.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: John O'L
Date: 03 Oct 08 - 10:06 PM

McCain or Palin, What a choice. I find it hard to believe that this pair is seriously in contention for the White House.

But then again, I guess that's just me. I find it hard to believe that Kissinger is still regarded with some kind of credibility. Palin drops his name as if it's a badge.
Has everyone forgotten what he & Nixon did to Cambodia?

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Oct 08 - 10:08 PM

Most people in the US never learned about what Kissinger did to Laos and Cambodia in the first place. They can't forget because they never knew.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Little Hawk
Date: 03 Oct 08 - 10:08 PM

I'm sure that a great many have forgotten it...if they ever acknowledged it in the first place.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: katlaughing
Date: 03 Oct 08 - 11:48 PM

Carol, I would love it if someone would take a pair of scissors to her bangs/fringe! I am sure it was planned, as well as leaving ehr hair down in back instead of swooped up.

My Rog finally put his finger on who she reminds him of...the religious neighbour on the Simpsons, I think his name is Ned.**bg** The same kind of fluffy, smiley rhetoric and disconnect with what anyone else has said.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Oct 08 - 11:58 PM

I think Palin is a much more calculating person than Ned Flanders is supposed to be. But I see the same similarity in mannerisms. It looks to me like an act on Palin's part, though. It also reminds me of how some people talk to pre-school age children.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: DougR
Date: 04 Oct 08 - 01:42 AM

She must have done pretty good. Otherwise you folks wouldn't find it so necessary to attack her en mass.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Oct 08 - 01:58 AM

Wow, if that's the case, I guess that means Jimmy Carter was the greatest president in the history of the US, if the amount of attacks the person is subjected to is the indication of how good a job they've done.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Oct 08 - 01:59 AM

She did do pretty well, Doug, and so did Biden, but that's not why "they" are attacking her en masse. ;-) They are attacking her en masse because she is running for the Republicans, and they would be attacking her en masse whether she had done well, badly, splendidly, or was a complete disaster. Any which way.

That's how it works. The attacks on Palin here are as inevitable as is your enthusiastic support of her, and have little or nothing to do with how well she did the debate.

Like I've said before, if I could predict the weather as accurately as I can predict people's political reactions to things on this forum, I'd have a lucrative job over at Channel 5, I'm sure. ;-D

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Oct 08 - 02:20 AM

Well, I'm neither a Democrat nor a Republican (and I would probably have voted for McCain in 2000 had he gotten the nomination, but that was before he sold his soul to mammon), and if I have any criticism of Palin, it's because I think she would be a disaster as a vice president or as a president, and has nothing whatever to do with which party she represents.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: akenaton
Date: 04 Oct 08 - 03:25 AM

My my, the "sisterhood" sure like to get the knife in! I expect this sort of stuff from the rabid Democrats...."Et tu Carol?"

Mrs Palin is a tactic, in exactly the same way as Mr Obama is a tactic, both Parties trying to mobilise what they see as their core support.

Sensible people, and there are quite a few on Mudcat should be united in anger over the disgracful robbery of $700 billion from the tax paying public, to finance the criminal cabal who will continue to prey on working people.

Notice how the Parties united to push through the bailout in the face of overwhelming opposition from the public.

Can you not see where their interests lie?......certainly not with the people they are supposed to represent!

This crisis should make it clear to everyone that our problems are created by Capitalism...which , whether we like it or not will always be unregulated, because Capitalism "regulates" itself.

If the left does not start fighting back, and now is a good time to start, we may well find we are too late.

The fact that intelligent people are still arguing about the status of two candidates, neither of whom have the ability or the will to bring in any sort of meaningful change, beggars belief...Ake

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: akenaton
Date: 04 Oct 08 - 03:40 AM

By the way, the markets say..... "Thank you vey much for the gift mugs!!"....... and continue to fall another 150 points.

How much money are you going to have to "invest" in Capitalism before the penny drops?...Ake

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Oct 08 - 03:55 AM

Sorry, but I stand by what I said about Palin. I have a right, as a voter, to assess the various candidates to determine who I will and will not vote for. My assessment of Palin is that she should not become either the vice president or the president. Other people may have different assessments, but that is mine, and I have a right to it. Palin has put herself before the voters and is asking for our approval. I get to decide whether or not I will give her mine.

On the subject of the bailout, the representative for my district in Congress voted against the bailout (twice). And I'm proud of him for doing so. I'll be voting for him again in November.

I don't approve of either McCain or Obama voting for the bailout. But I am probably going to give Obama an opportunity to show me what he will do as president. Once he is elected, if he is, my intention is to constantly hold his feet to the fire, and my hope is that everyone who votes for him will do the same.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: akenaton
Date: 04 Oct 08 - 04:04 AM

Carol....Political change never evolves.
Please don't be taken in by the carnival.
We in the UK elected a "£abour" gvt expecting change and social justice....We got war and an even greater differential between rich and poor.

The election of a "left wing" Capitalist government makes the robbert and manipulation easier...Ake

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Oct 08 - 04:15 AM

What I mean, Carol, is that to vote for the McCain/Palin ticket would be to endorse what amounts to a continuance of the past 8 years of the Bush legacy, and most people here are are dead against that, including me....and that's the main reason for attacking Sarah Palin...rather than her bangs or her high-pitched voice or whatever.

Whereas Doug's main reason for supporting her is that he would like to see a continuance of the Bush legacy... ;-) So he likes her and everthing she says sounds great to Doug.

Ake is right that Mrs Palin is simply a tactic...one designed to appeal to certain types of voters (small town and rural conservatives and older people and some women) while Mr Obama is a tactic designed to appeal to urban progressives and young people and those desirous of "change" and some minorities.

Both parties have opted to follow a certain tactical plan and that's why they have chosen certain individuals.

It's the old, classic divide between the natural conservative and liberal demographics.

The same thing happens in Canada. Young people and urban people and minorities and arts people tend to vote for the Liberals and the NDP and the Green Party. Older white office and blue collar people in rural areas and small towns tend to vote for the Conservatives.

The hilarious thing is that when the Conservatives get into office they economically shaft most of the little people who voted for them (with the exception of the upper income echelons) but it seems to go unnoticed by the poor sods who troop out dutifully election after election and vote for them...imagining they will get a "tax break".

That natural conservative base, however, only amounts to about 35% of the Canadian public, and if we only had 2 parties here, they'd probably never win an election. It's a much higher percentage than that in the USA.

I'll give you an example of how it works. They hold a mock election in my small town at the high schools when there's a national election, just to see what the students think. They just held one here in Orillia. The Conservative Party came in DEAD LAST among the high school students. They will, however, win this seat in the real election when the students' parents, the older folks in this town, go to the polls later this month, because that's what always happens in this small town riding. They could run a moose or a dog for the Conservatives and he'd still win in this town.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Oct 08 - 04:15 AM

I haven't noticed revolutions creating any lasting change, either. At least not any change that doesn't eventually get co-opted by core elites at the expense of everyone else.

I'm putting my money on evolution this time. I may be wrong, but I have to follow my conscience, and that's what my conscience is telling me to do at this time.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Oct 08 - 04:16 AM

Crossposted

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: quokka
Date: 04 Oct 08 - 04:29 AM

With regard to pronouncing Iraq and Iran as 'Eye-raq' and 'Eye-ran', the same thing is sometimes done to the word Italian, (Eye-talian) and it is a put down. Imagine if anyone pronounced the citizens of Illinois that way, or referred to the Iroquois nation. When you apply the practice to these examples it sounds ridiculous. Maybe they honestly don't mean it that way, but it comes across badly.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 04 Oct 08 - 04:42 AM

WE can't hold politician's 'feet to the fire' Carol, as once they're in, we have no way of removing them.
At least in the US you can impeach a President, but he/she needs to step so far over the line for that to happen, so they're there for the duration.
UK is worse in a way as the PM is at the head of a majority political party, all of whom have their noses in the trough. Once a PM's in they're in, as far as we the electorate are concerned.

XG

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: akenaton
Date: 04 Oct 08 - 05:03 AM

Carol...I'm not advocating another American Revolution, but some action is required by the public to effect change.

When tough fighters like you start to put their faith in Capitalist govt I begin to despair!

Still think you look like a YOUNG Jane Fonda tho'....:0)

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Oct 08 - 05:12 AM

LOL

;-)


I'm not putting my faith in capitalist government. I'm just probably going to vote for the person I think is most likely to help us move beyond what we are calling capitalism at this time. From my perspective I still see us moving beyond the form of capitalism we practice now to embrace something entirely new. But I see it growing out of the systems we have in place now. Look at Mozilla as opposed to Microsoft to get a sense of what I see emerging.

I don't agree, however, that in this country we can't hold their feet to the fire. They start campaigning for their second term right from the beginning of their first term.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Bobert
Date: 04 Oct 08 - 07:38 AM

Ake,

Well, I for one, am completely incensed over the $700B fleecing of the US Treasury... I wholeheartedly disagree with Obama on this one and it will take alot of the pleasure outta going to the polls and voting for him... However, I will hold my nose and do the deed...

But you are right about the US being ripe for revolution and I think that seeing Obama elected will allow alot of people who have been blinded by cynicism to see the possibilities needed for people to unite against thias corrupt system... Yeah, I know that is a stretch, a leap of faith, but that's what I feel is the next step toward the revolution...

But I don't see the revolution taking place in a conventional manner but one where "Southern Man" has been squeezed too the max and turns against the "Southern Strategy" and moves from just being pissed off that Stroker Ace got bumped out of the race in the last lap to militancy... A lot of very rich people have been using the South as their personal "playground"... They drive into the South with their $1M motor homes with toys in tow... Meanwhile, Southern Man is makin' $12 a hour, driving a 10 year old pickup truck or used SUV, owes more than he owns and feels as if he has been left behind... I have long predicted here that when Southern Man turns against Boss Hog that there will be nothing that Boss Hog will be able to do to get him back into the fold... When that occurs, the South will no longer be a safe haven for Boss Hog and his toys... That will be the beginning of the revolution because even today it is Southern Man who is the fiercest defender of Boss Hog... That is going to change!!!

Now back to the debates...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Riginslinger
Date: 04 Oct 08 - 08:08 AM

Joe Biden's feet are cold!

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Bobert
Date: 04 Oct 08 - 08:43 AM

And Sarah's mom wears Army boots!

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Riginslinger
Date: 04 Oct 08 - 10:13 AM

I wonder why?

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 04 Oct 08 - 11:27 AM

Oops. I must confess my ignorance and impaired memory. It wasn't Palin, but Biden, who said "Bosniacs." Second, it is the correct term:

"An earlier version of this column misspelled an ethnic term for Muslims in Bosnia and Herzegovina, and incorrectly claimed that Senator Joseph R. Biden Jr. had made a mistake in using it. The correct spelling is Bosniak, not Bosniac, and Mr. Biden's usage was correct."


http://www.nytimes.com/2008/10/04/opinion/04blow.html?_r=1&em&oref=slogin

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 04 Oct 08 - 11:52 AM

The word Bosniac/bosniac draws a total blank when entered in the search facility of Chambers on line dictionary. I must admit it sounds wrong to me, never having heard the word before.
Might he be getting confused with Brainiac?

XG

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 04 Oct 08 - 12:03 PM

Well, I spelled it wrong, too. Bosniak.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 04 Oct 08 - 12:07 PM

Oh, you meant Bosniak! ;)

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Riginslinger
Date: 04 Oct 08 - 07:25 PM

Does that mean it's something to be removed? Wasn't that what the Serbians were doing?

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Alice
Date: 04 Oct 08 - 09:41 PM

The Palin Debate Flow Chart

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 04 Oct 08 - 09:54 PM

hee hee hee. That must have been leaked by an insider.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Riginslinger
Date: 04 Oct 08 - 10:10 PM

Actually, it was leaked by a jerk named Aden Nak

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: bobad
Date: 04 Oct 08 - 10:26 PM

Aden Nak is Kanneda spelled backwards.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 04 Oct 08 - 10:45 PM

I like the flow chart.

One part was omitted though.

At the start it should say

Ask Senator Biden if you can call him "Joe ---->
Yes ----> can I Say "Say it ain't So Joe! Here ----> no ----> pee like a puppy in anticipation of that opportunity, THANK GOD I AM WEARING SPACE DIAPERS!!----- Yes! ---->whew! Finally!! Move on to "Thar ya! go again!" Try to sound as much as possible like Walt Disney's Goofy.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 04 Oct 08 - 10:54 PM

Blah blah debate blah. Two mainstreamy rich people reading speeches that they hope will appeal to mainstreamy middle-class people, occasionally interrupted by Gwen Ifill. Wink, mention dead wife, choke up on cue, wink, blow Israel, blather, wink, etc. I wonder if people would have been less impressed with the performances if even one of the "third party" VP candidates would have been allowed to participate...

But... I have enjoyed the Hell out of the supposed Bosniak "gaffe," or, rather, the reaction to it. I remember half-listening to the not-even-close-to-being-an-actual-debate, and being mildly impressed that Biden said it. Then, the fun began: Started with Cokie Roberts, and took off through the blogs. "Bosniacs?! Didn't they invade Romulus?! ROFLCOPTER!!!!!" The sheepish apologies (following snarky corrections) the next day have been the best part. Or, better, the non-apologies that say Biden's just a big pedantic nerd for using the term. Sadly, I wasted about an hour reading that shit... But I'd do it again! *sigh*

But seriously, how do people not know what a Bosniak is? Honest, I'm not trying to be a dick here, but... watched the news over the past twenty years or so? ;)

---Will

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: heric
Date: 04 Oct 08 - 11:58 PM

You make me want to be a better man, Rex.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 05 Oct 08 - 12:48 AM

I know, right? The best part is that I'm always around me, so I'm constantly inspiring myself with the staggering brilliance of my superior mind. And so I'm forever accruing even more awesomeness, which I then pass on to you, the consumer.

---Will

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Little Hawk
Date: 05 Oct 08 - 10:38 AM

LOL! You oughta start a public affairs show on TV, Lepus.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 05 Oct 08 - 12:06 PM

Fox network may be looking for someone.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 05 Oct 08 - 02:25 PM

In the news I heard in the 90's they were called Bosnians.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 05 Oct 08 - 02:53 PM

Still are over here, never heard the term Bosniak before I saw it here.

XG

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: akenaton
Date: 05 Oct 08 - 03:43 PM

Hi guest...I think so...as long as you have a "tag".

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 06 Oct 08 - 06:05 AM

Kidding aside, I understand that not everyone would be familiar with the term Bosniak. Puzzled, perhaps. I mean, it was in the news. A lot. For decades. One of the biggest news stories of the past fifty years. But, no, I won't judge.

Anyways, yes, you guys have heard the term Bosnian, but Bosniak and Bosnian aren't the same thing. Bosnian is a nationality, what we call a citizen of Bosna i Hercegovina, regardless of their ethnicity. Bosniak is what we call those people often referred to as Bosnian Muslims. But they don't all live in Bosnia, and they aren't all Muslims, so... It's complicated.

---Will

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Bobert
Date: 07 Oct 08 - 06:41 PM

Refresh for Round Two of McCain and Obama...

McCain is desperate so this one oughtta be real interesting... I suspect that McCain wuill try branding Obama a traitor, a commie, a sex offender, a terrorist and juts about anything else that pops into McCain's demented little mind...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: CarolC
Date: 07 Oct 08 - 06:58 PM

A traitor, a commie, a sex offender, a terrorist, and an elitist.

LOL

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: bobad
Date: 07 Oct 08 - 06:59 PM

"I suspect that McCain wuill try branding Obama a traitor, a commie, a sex offender, a terrorist and juts about anything else that pops into McCain's demented little mind..."

Worse than that he is labeling him as a, wait for it .....liberal ..... horrors.

It has always mystified me that in the US the word "liberal" is seen as pejorative whereas in most other progressive countries it has positive connotations.

From an online dictionary:

a. Not limited to or by established, traditional, orthodox, or authoritarian attitudes, views, or dogmas; free from bigotry.
b. Favoring proposals for reform, open to new ideas for progress, and tolerant of the ideas and behavior of others; broad-minded.

These are good things, no?


conservative

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Riginslinger
Date: 07 Oct 08 - 07:23 PM

I suspect McCain will brand Obama for exactly what he is!

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Jeri
Date: 07 Oct 08 - 07:39 PM

Nah. I don't think he's about to admit Obama's a better choice.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Bobert
Date: 07 Oct 08 - 07:41 PM

Good 'un, Jeri...

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Jeri
Date: 07 Oct 08 - 07:42 PM

Seriously, the whole 'terrorist' smear is ridiculous and would be even funnier if there weren't people dimwitted enough to believe it.

Good-ol'-boy stupid has become a whole lot more admirable in some circles that 'elitist' smart.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 07 Oct 08 - 09:29 PM

McCain's tie is too long.

Obama keeps droppin' his "g"s.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: CarolC
Date: 07 Oct 08 - 09:35 PM

That's a very small audience.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: CarolC
Date: 07 Oct 08 - 09:38 PM

I hate this format. It's only good for sound bytes and bumper sticker slogans.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 07 Oct 08 - 09:46 PM

Yes, and they raised expectations about it, too. I think I'll go walk the dog.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Amos
Date: 07 Oct 08 - 09:46 PM

I had to turn it off; McCain is a walking slimebomb and speaks in forked tongues.


A

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Beer
Date: 07 Oct 08 - 09:48 PM

Mudcat is more exciting.
Beer (adrien)

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Jeri
Date: 07 Oct 08 - 09:57 PM

McCain doesn't look like he's doing so good. He's stilted, nervous and repetitive. He's inserting some fairly nonsequiturial points from the script ('gotta shove that in somewhere'). Obama just looks like Obama and is managing to point out the attempted twisting of his policies by McCain. I've noticed no such twisting by Obama.

McCain is trying too hard, and I wouldn't be surprised if he lost even more percentage points after this. I probably won't sit through the whole thing either. McCain is losing the plot ('hair transplants'?!) and Obama is patient and presidential.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: bobad
Date: 07 Oct 08 - 10:32 PM

McCain looks very weak to me.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Jeri
Date: 07 Oct 08 - 10:38 PM

And McCain refused to shake Obama's proferred hand. His wife did, but not McCain.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 07 Oct 08 - 10:46 PM

I doubt anyone who has already made up their mind about who to vote for will change their vote based upon this event. Tom Brokaw is the clear loser--he couldn't contain them in the format or time. They wanted to answer and rebut completely, and since they are the parties who set up the original agreement for the meeting, they can change the rules along the way, but they fell back on the same old arguments to do it. There wasn't anything new here. The first debate was better.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: catspaw49
Date: 07 Oct 08 - 11:21 PM

Any comment here leads some credence to the whole damn thing so let me say, NO COMMENT.

Why do they even bother with this shit?

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Don Firth
Date: 07 Oct 08 - 11:29 PM

Anybody get a count of how many times McCain addressed the audience as "...my friends...?"

It was beginning to get a little tedious.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Azizi
Date: 07 Oct 08 - 11:51 PM

McCain's macaca moment-referring to Obama as "That one".

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Peace
Date: 07 Oct 08 - 11:58 PM

"I suspect McCain will brand Obama for exactly what he is!"

Yeah. The next President of the United States of America.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 08 Oct 08 - 12:02 AM

The only real surprise was McCain's statement that the Government should buy up all the bad mortgages and renegotiate them. Oddly it echoes something Biden said about adjusting both interest rates and principals.

Even more oddly, nobody pursued the point.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: CarolC
Date: 08 Oct 08 - 12:15 AM

I think that was already voted on in the big bailout bill. McCain has perhaps not yet read the bill he just voted on.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: michaelr
Date: 08 Oct 08 - 01:14 AM

Palin's husband is part of a movement that wants Alaska to secede from the US.

Isn't that treason?

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 08 Oct 08 - 03:10 AM

Oh dear, the KKK is back. Jolly darkies gathering cotton, and displaying their natural sense of rhythm, but somehow childlike and in need of de white massa's firm but loving hand?

Cotton indeed!

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: GUEST,LSM
Date: 08 Oct 08 - 03:30 AM

Questions answered next month Richard, let's see how much noise you make then ! So nice to see a members only thread full of "GUEST" posts ! that really makes a joke of it. Yes several guest posts up there still.

Love to stay and talk Richard, but have to spread the jam here on the toast, saving up the tokens on the jar for my next little brass badge, fancy the golfer this time ;-)

---

The "Guests" above are longtime members. We had too many problems with strangers dropping insults in the previous debates thread, so we restricted this one.
You're welcome to post in any of the other threads, but keep your insults to yourself.
-Joe Offer, Forum Moderator-

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 08 Oct 08 - 06:02 AM

If a member's cookie goes down and they come in as a GUEST they are still a member.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Riginslinger
Date: 08 Oct 08 - 06:04 AM

"And McCain refused to shake Obama's proferred hand. His wife did, but not McCain."


                I wouldn't make too much of that. I've noticed that McCain usually only shakes hands with his left hand. I suspect his other arm doesn't have the mobility. It might look more awkward than it really was, and be totally unintentional.

                The focus group that they questioned after the debate thought McCain did better on the economy.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 08 Oct 08 - 06:23 AM

I would suggest LSM that it would be more useful if you made a comment that is cogent to the subject of the thread, and stopped trying to score points.

XG

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Bobert
Date: 08 Oct 08 - 08:22 AM

CNN poll this morning:

Obama won: 54%
McCain won: 30%

Personally, I thought that McCain was 100% McCain and that seems to be a problem for him... He is a mean spirited little man with a bad temper...

I agree wholeheartedly with MiziAzizi that the "That One" comment was McCain's "macaca moment" and will probably be looked back upon when the McCain Straight Talking Bus went off the cliff...

But what bothers me is that rather than try to salvage any level of respect McCain and Palin have decided to turn to a racist campign with all kinds of codified language.... I also find it amazing that someone in the crowd at one of Palin's events yelled "Kill him!" in regards to Obama and Palin didn't respond... Oh yeah, the Repubs will say that she didn't hear it... Well, that's bull... She heard it allright...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Pseudolus
Date: 08 Oct 08 - 08:41 AM

I think that Obama will stay above the fray where the "that one" comment is concerned. He's leading in all the polls, McCain is in trouble and he knows it. Going after McCain on that would be seen as stooping down to his level and I think Obama is smart enough to see that. McCain knows that he didn't have the kind of decisive win he needed to spark the campaign which in my opinion is why he left so quickly after the debate ended. Obama was out there by himslef working the crowd, looking like the winner of the debate and to me, looking like the next President.

Frank

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Charley Noble
Date: 08 Oct 08 - 10:10 AM

Happy to see some comments on this debate which I missed by attending the sea music session in Gloucester last night. I was sort of hoping that Obama would confronte McCain on the nasty shift his campaign has shifted to. This is not the kind of campaign that McCain said he would run a few months ago, and desparation is no excuse for such mean-spirited, guilt by association, sneer-sneer, stuff that I'm seeing now.

Charley Noble, on the road home from Getaway

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Amos
Date: 08 Oct 08 - 10:48 AM

"...They saw through the rhetoric. Made note of every zinger — as well as many of the inconsistencies. And while analyzing Tuesday night's presidential debate, Valley High School debate champs were impressed by Sen. Barack Obama's command and taken aback by Sen. John McCain's "crude" barbs.

The Mercury News invited champion debaters from Bellarmine College Preparatory and Leland High School to assess the second presidential debate. Both schools are in San Jose and many of the students in the Democratic-heavy Bay Area said their parents are Obama supporters.

Eight of the eleven students said Obama handily won and stood out as the more persuasive, and more presidential, figure. One student gave the edge to McCain; two pronounced it a draw. However, many said the debate probably changed few voters' minds.

"After the initial pokes and jabs, it was a race to the middle," said Sagar Vijay, a senior at Bellarmine. "Obama had a better command of rhetoric. When he talked of how his mother died of cancer, he put himself in others' shoes."

A key moment in the 90-minute town-hall-style debate held in Nashville was when McCain pointed his finger at Obama and referred to his fellow senator as "that one" in reference to a Senate vote on a controversial energy bill. That elicited audible gasps from the teenagers, all of whom are too young to vote in the Nov. 4 election.

"McCain was a lot more crude," said Vijay Sridharan, a junior at


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Advertisement

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bellarmine. "His pointing to Obama and the phrase 'that one.' To see that lack of professionalism on a presidential debate was shocking."

Many students said the candidates largely stuck to their key talking points and repeated catchphrases from the campaign trail, breaking little new ground, though they noted McCain outlined a new plan to buy bad mortgages and that both sides seemed to repeatedly return to energy policy.

One note of particular interest to Silicon Valley: McCain mentioned Meg Whitman, eBay's former CEO, as a possible choice for Treasury secretary; however, it caused a few in the room to mutter, "Didn't they just do layoffs?"

Many students said Obama did a better job of spelling out specific policy proposals and looking to the future, while McCain seemed stuck in the past.

"McCain used a kind of 'Back to the Future' approach," said Taman Narayan, a senior at Leland High School. "He kept saying, 'My friends, look at Ronald Reagan, look at Teddy Roosevelt, look at the surge.' Obama took the mantle and moved it forward.''

Noting Obama's call to fight climate change and characterizing health care as an American "right" — as opposed to McCain calling it a "responsibility" — Bellarmine senior Evan Larson said, "Obama kept calling us to embrace our highest values."..."

(MErcury NEws)

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Amos
Date: 08 Oct 08 - 01:25 PM

Forbes opines:

Obama Wins Debates, Increases Lead in Key States

There may be some discussion about whether the town hall format worked for last night's debate (moderator Tom Brokaw repeatedly had to scold both candidates for ignoring the time limits and debate rules), but Barack Obama walked away with the win. Voters wanted to hear specifics on the economy, health care, and foreign policy. Overall, Obama provided more of those than John McCain. Trailwatch readers agree. As of this morning, 74% of people who participated in our admittedly unscientific poll thought that Obama won. This is another blow for the McCain campaign, which was counting on this format to work to his advantage. John McCain has participated in hundreds of town hall forums with voters and the expectation was that he would be in his element.

The debate's impact on voters has yet to show up in state-by-state and national results, but we have some new numbers from polls taken just prior to the debate. Nationally, Obama leads McCain by a little over five points--this according to the poll average from Real Clear Politics.

Obama has added to his poll lead in Colorado, Nevada, New Hampshire, Ohio, Pennsylvania and Wisconsin. In 2004, John Kerry won Pennsylvania, New Hampshire and Wisconsin but he lost in Colorado, Ohio and Nevada. A glance at our Electoral College Map shows that if Obama can just add those three states, and hold on to all of the states that John Kerry won in 2004, he will win in November.

In New Hampshire, a state that was mentioned in last night's debate, Obama's lead has increased by 2.2 percentage points; he leads 52% to McCain's 41%. A win in New Hampshire along with Nevada, where Obama leads by 3 points, and Wisconsin, where Obama is ahead by 8 points over McCain, would get the Democrats to the magic number of 270 Electoral College votes. On top of that, Obama leads the polls in the 2004 Bush states of Florida and Virginia and even has a slight poll edge in North Carolina and Missouri.

...

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Amos
Date: 08 Oct 08 - 02:54 PM

CNN) -- iReporters across the country agree that Sen. Barack Obama won the second presidential debate Tuesday at Belmont University in Nashville, Tennessee.


Students at Northern Virginia Community College gather to watch the second presidential debate Tuesday.

Dozens of iReporters sent in video reactions to the debate between Obama and Sen. John McCain. While the majority said that Obama came out ahead, several iReporters called the face-off a tie.

The reaction from iReporters reflects the results of a CNN/Opinion Research Corp. survey that was conducted after the debate. Fifty-four percent of respondents said Obama performed better in the debate, while 30 percent said McCain fared better.

Frequent iReporter Jason Dinant noted that McCain went into the debate with the advantage of the town hall meeting. "However, at the end, hands-down Barack Obama won this debate," he said.

Dinant, who lives in Las Vegas, Nevada, said he is now an undecided voter. Originally a supporter of former Democratic candidate Sen. Hillary Clinton, he later switched his vote to McCain.

After watching both presidential debates, he is now considering voting for Obama in the presidential election. iReport.com: Watch why Dinant is tried of hearing the phrase 'my friends'

Obama "came off as definitely more knowledgeable in this debate," he said. "Sometimes McCain stumbled and you could definitely see it through his lies."
...

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: katlaughing
Date: 08 Oct 08 - 04:18 PM

I am going to make a new bumper sticker with McCain's face on it, the no symbol drawn over that and the words "You are NOT "my friend!" written under it! It's getting to the point where I loathe hearing his voice almost as much as the shrub's.

bobad, you'd think those would be admirable attributes, but it's the last bit, tolerant of the ideas and behavior of others; broad-minded. that sticks in the craw of the far wrong...they are full of fear which keeps them from being open and tolerant and they don't want anyone else to be, either!

My new son-in-law, who still has some learning to do, imo, thinks it is funny to see a bumper sticker, here, with the hammer and sickle next to Obama's name. I didn't have the presence of mind to ask him why. My daughter works with a woman who proudly sports one, too. I guess Joe Mcwhatshisname, McCarthy, must be proud.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: irishenglish
Date: 08 Oct 08 - 04:44 PM

My friends....maverick
My friends.....Joe Lieberman
My friends.....Ronald Reagan
My friends....Teddy Roosevelt
My friends....That one
My friends....maverick



You get the rest!

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Amos
Date: 08 Oct 08 - 05:47 PM

Funny--I ended up so frustrated at his transparent snake-oil duplicity that I ended up yelling at the TV:

JOHN!!!! WE'RE NOT YOUR FRIENDS!!!!!!!



A

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: heric
Date: 08 Oct 08 - 06:39 PM

Big hands? Doesn't attract me, really.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Riginslinger
Date: 08 Oct 08 - 08:00 PM

"JOHN!!!! WE'RE NOT YOUR FRIENDS!!!!!!!"


                Of course you are. You just don't know it yet.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: katlaughing
Date: 08 Oct 08 - 08:04 PM

Me, too, Amos.

Good one, irishenglish!

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Alice
Date: 08 Oct 08 - 08:32 PM

With friends like John McCain, who needs enemies.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: CarolC
Date: 08 Oct 08 - 08:52 PM

(... with friends like John McCain, who needs enemas )

:-\

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Amos
Date: 08 Oct 08 - 08:59 PM

Rig:

I am SO glad there is someone like you around who knows me better than I know myself, and can help straighten me out by telling me what's good for me.

Not.



A

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 08 Oct 08 - 09:42 PM

Of course J McC likes Teddy Roosevelt-----he spoke at his high school graduation ceremonies.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 08 Oct 08 - 10:14 PM

A friend today suggested making up lapel buttons that say, in big letters, THAT ONE, 2008!"

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Alice
Date: 08 Oct 08 - 10:41 PM

I posted this in another thread, but if you go to www.cafepress.com, there are LOTS of people creating Obama buttons, tee shirts, bumperstickers, etc., using the "I'm voting for That One" theme.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Riginslinger
Date: 08 Oct 08 - 10:42 PM

"Not."



                         You're sure?

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Art Thieme
Date: 08 Oct 08 - 11:05 PM

The Dianne Rheem (spelling?) show on NPR Thursday -- tomorrow -- is a discussion on CAPITALISM!!! It is way overdue.

As I said in the recent thread here a week or so ago, this system, with it's horrendous excesses and criminal machinations, must be, at the very least, seriously questioned!!

I do want to hear this discussion. We sure didn't hear anyone speak of this very relevant and basic topic in any of the debates.

Art Thieme

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: TIA
Date: 08 Oct 08 - 11:19 PM

Can't let Bobert's observation above pass...

In the interest of fair and balanced, there are now several newsreels (e.g. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xVFWahLTdUo) where you can clearly hear McCain-Palin rally attendees shouting "terrorist", "treason", and - more than once - "kill him".

If Obama is to be held accountable for the words and deeds of any of his supporters (let's say Wright or Ayers for instance), should we not expect McCain and Palin to repudiate, deny, reject (or whatever the hell the proper word was) these obscene and dangerous cries from their supporters?

I'm serious. The specter of Bobby Kennedy (I know that reference got Hillary in trouble, but there it is...) and Martin Luther King Jr. looms (God or Dog Forbid).

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 09 Oct 08 - 07:31 AM

Rig says you will be McWar's friends in due course.

I'd be more worried, if he were elected, that you'd pretty soon have to learn to like what you were damned well told to like.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Riginslinger
Date: 09 Oct 08 - 07:39 AM

"...should we not expect McCain and Palin to repudiate, deny, reject (or whatever the hell the proper word was) these obscene and dangerous cries from their supporters?"


                     It's very doubtful in McCain and Palin have any idea who these people are. It would make sense that security people in the crowd (secret service and etc.) should identify them, follow and maybe investigate them, but it seems to me that it would be counter-productive for any of the candidates comment on these loonies.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Bobert
Date: 09 Oct 08 - 08:05 AM

It's not a matter of who these pweople are, Rigs, if you have them yellin' "Kill him" during a campaign speech... That is the point where any person who is truely qualified to be president of this country ***should*** stop the prepared speech and interject that those kinds of thoughts are not acceptable... I mean, yeah, we all have vivid memories of Bobby Kennedy laying there in that hotel in California and dieing in front of the cameras...

This is not an acceptable and if Obama is ever hurt (or killed) some of his blood will be on the hands of McCain and Palin who, by their silence on the issue, give a tacit approval to these people to think (and perhaps act) that assasination is just fine with them...

There is no other way to look at this...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Emma B
Date: 09 Oct 08 - 08:09 AM

"This greatest opportunity in American history to educate the voters by debating the large issues of the campaign failed," wrote one of our greatest historians. The debates were "remarkably successful in reducing great national issues to trivial dimensions." "Finally, the television watching voter was left to judge, not on issues explored by thoughtful men, but on the relative capacity of the two candidates to perform under television stress."

The author was Daniel Boorstin, and he was writing about the Kennedy-Nixon debates of 1960.

From Against The Grain The Vanishing Character Of McCain And Obama by Dick Meyer

'Nowadays, of course, those four black-and-white debates are recalled as a pinnacle of modern politics, as sober, intellectual and minimally stage-managed conversations between two statesmen who showed mastery of the world's issues. Boorstin saw them as farce.

With a month left in the 2008 campaign, I cannot imagine Boorstin's grave is large enough for adequate rolling over.'

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Riginslinger
Date: 09 Oct 08 - 09:18 AM

"...any person who is truely qualified to be president of this country ***should*** stop the prepared speech and interject that those kinds of thoughts are not acceptable... I mean, yeah, we all have vivid memories of Bobby Kennedy laying there in that hotel in California and dieing in front of the cameras..."


                  My experience with hecklers is, the only people who really know what is actually being said are the people who are sitting right around the heckler. To everyone else, it just sounds like a bunch of noise. We all sit there and turn to each other and ask, "What is he saying?"

                  I don't recall any heckling taking place before Bobby Kennedy was shot. The killer just ran out from behind a group of people and pulled the trigger.

                  All of that having been said, it seems to me that most politicians put down hecklers as quickly as he/she can. Sarah Palin is the best I've ever seen at it.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 09 Oct 08 - 09:28 AM

But would it work on Al Quaeda, or the Taliban, Rig?
Repartee isn't much use against an AK47.

XG

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Alice
Date: 09 Oct 08 - 09:34 AM

Wow. Rig has been going to Palin rallies and watching her put down hecklers. Really?

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: CarolC
Date: 09 Oct 08 - 09:35 AM

I think that the kind of incitement that McCain and especially Palin are engaging in at Obama's expense is definitely creeping into brownshirt territory. And the kinds of responses they're getting now to it (shouts of "kill him!" being the worst example), are perfectly in keeping with the kind of message they're putting out.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 09 Oct 08 - 10:06 AM

Riginslinger commented:

All of that having been said, it seems to me that most politicians put down hecklers as quickly as he/she can.

These shouts of "Kill Him!", though, are not heckling; they're against the opposition, not the speaker. And if the speaker doesn't publicly disown them, then and there, the impression, at least, is that the speaker doesn't object to them or even endorses them.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: PoppaGator
Date: 09 Oct 08 - 10:33 AM

"...it seems to me that most politicians put down hecklers as quickly as he/she can. Sarah Palin is the best I've ever seen at it."

If Palin can hear "hecklers" who voice disagreement with her, and is so good at responding to them, how can anyone claim that she (& McCain) couldn't possibly hear loud shouts of "Kill him!" and shouldn't be expected to respond to those inappropriate reactions?

The answer, I think, is that in their desperation, the GOP candidates are intentionally whipping up irrational fear and hatred, and have no intention of interrupting the development of a fully rabble-roused atmosphere at their rallies by scolding any of their most rabid followers.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Azizi
Date: 09 Oct 08 - 10:48 AM

Even if Sarah Palin or John McCain didn't hear those hate fulled statements {which I doubt}, because of media coverage of those statements, they know about them now.

What, if anything, has the McCain/Palin campaign done to repudiate those statements. And what, if any, changes has the McCain/Palin campaign made in their speeches and theirads to tone down their rhetoric so that their supporters would get the message that it's not okay to make such statements?

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Azizi
Date: 09 Oct 08 - 10:53 AM

Clarification:

I doubt that Sarah Palin and John McCain did not hear those hate fulled, dangerous statements from their supporters. But if they are saying that they didn't hear them, now that they know about them, what are they doing about those statements and what changes are they making in their statements and ads that encourage those dangerous and hate fulled statements?

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 09 Oct 08 - 10:56 AM

I seem to recal a number of effigies of Bush , Cheney, and Rove that were being hung, with no protest by any here....



As long as the Democratic party is running a campaign of fear ( Beware the Boogie-man Bush! McCain is Bush- BE AFRAID!) there will be some response by the extreme conservatives at an equal level- NEITHER is appropriate or desirable.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Alice
Date: 09 Oct 08 - 11:03 AM

It is ironic that the educational charity board of Chicago Annenberg Challenge, that Ayers and Obama served on, was a project of the Annenberg Family Foundation. Lenore Annenberg is a McCain supporter. By association, I guess she was palling around with terrorists, too. This is so ridiculous, it is hard to believe McCain can push this idea with a straight face.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Azizi
Date: 09 Oct 08 - 11:07 AM

Here's an excerpt from The Tampa Tribune

Published: October 9, 2008

New Political Challenges Require Original McCain

"He [McCain] also has failed to guide his vice presidential pick, Sarah Palin, who is inexperienced on the national stage. At a recent rally in Clearwater, Palin was hammering Obama's association with a former radical when someone in the audience shouted, "Kill him!" Palin let it pass. Another overwrought fan was reported to have shouted a racial epithet at a black member of a news crew. Other reporters covering the event were verbally abused by the crowd. Is this the tone the campaign seeks?

McCain has either lost control of the campaign or endorses her rough campaign tactics. With the ticket trailing in the polls, Palin's role is to excite the base, not dangerously incite it"...

http://www2.tbo.com/content/2008/oct/09/na-new-political-challenges-require-original-mccai/news-opinion-editorials/

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Amos
Date: 09 Oct 08 - 11:12 AM

Bruce:

Considering that the Bush Administration has done more to terrorize the American people than any other political leader except bin Laden, i think it is a bit of a stretch to project fear-mongering onto the Dem campaign. Another four years of Bush-like policies is a reasonable eventuality to take preventive measures against, given the decline of the nation's conditions inthe last eight.


A

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 09 Oct 08 - 11:18 AM

That article pretty well nails it on McCain.

Cavil: >On the looming problem of how to pay for the nation's over-promised retirement program, McCain said, "It's not that hard to fix Social Security."

Of course it's going to be hard.<

His quote is used out of context. He said everyone knows what has to be done. He meant that the math wasn't hard.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Alice
Date: 09 Oct 08 - 11:30 AM

Fear mongering is fear mongering. Plain and simple, that is what Sarah Palin is doing. Inciting violence and defamation of character - Palin is doing both.

"It's a dangerous road, but we have no choice," a top McCain strategist recently admitted to the Daily News. "If we keep talking about the economic crisis, we're going to lose."

Inciting violence is a crime in the US. Law enforcement is just sitting back and letting them get away with it. I don't think any candidate in recent history has gone this far.

Fox report: 'More and more' McCain rallies are taunting Obama as 'traitor, criminal, and even terrorist.'

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 09 Oct 08 - 11:44 AM

This week's Economist has a throw-away line that has stuck with me: Both Obama and McCain are forced to pretend that they have full control over something that is much larger than them: The Democrat's and the Republican's Presidential campaigns.

(Referring to the Tampa Tribune article, not the Palin incident.)

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 09 Oct 08 - 12:10 PM

For example: Obama is running ads in Florida which reportedly suggest that McCain is a bigot. I'm sure Obama doesn't believe that, as there has never been any evidence of such a thing. Even if he did believe it, I doubt that he would want to run it that way. That is surely the Democratic party campaigning against the Republican party.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Riginslinger
Date: 09 Oct 08 - 12:53 PM

"Wow. Rig has been going to Palin rallies and watching her put down hecklers. Really?"


                   It was on the news:-)

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Alice
Date: 09 Oct 08 - 01:03 PM

Faux news, I'm sure.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Riginslinger
Date: 09 Oct 08 - 01:13 PM

No, actually, it was on the radio. I was driving.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 09 Oct 08 - 01:16 PM

Is this the tone the campaign seeks?

I think they are hinting at that tone as hard as they can without actually saying it.

There is a tape of a woman in PA or WV that has played several times on NPR recently, a white Democratic woman who says she can't vote for a black man because she's afraid he'll only "look after his own and forget about us." (paraphrased)

She's on the cusp of saying what (I would guess) McCain hopes will occur to and scare a level of unsophisticated, uneducated white Democrats--that if an African American is elected, then it's Payback Time. I think they fear a power shift that reflects centuries of resentment regarding slavery and mistreatment and current social inequities.

Frankly, I think it will provide a great surge forward that will have positive ramifications in minority communities and everyone will benefit. But McCain would like to play the Bush card and scare voters into electing him.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: akenaton
Date: 09 Oct 08 - 01:26 PM

Bearded Bruce has a valid point about the hanging of effigies.
Why does Alice or Amos who appear to be the most partisan Dems, not address that point.

Heric is also correct that this is a phoney contest between the Pubs and the Dems, really nothing to do with either candidate neither of whom have the slightest idea how to deal with the huge problems which are starting to appear.

At the moment the Pubs are becoming desperate, while Obama is cultivating an air of statesmanship.
It's all theatre and don't think either party morally superior to the other...both are parasites and both would behave in the same manner if their circumstances were reversed.

I cannot believe, after what has happened to the economy, that even semi intelligent people can still be fooled by the corporate Party System.....Ake

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Little Hawk
Date: 09 Oct 08 - 01:33 PM

You have stated the unsavoury truth in a nutshell there, Ake.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Riginslinger
Date: 09 Oct 08 - 01:42 PM

Yes, you're right. The contest should be between the people and the folks who have sold them out, but it's really like a professional wrestling match, and whoever wins will still work for the folks who sold them out.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Bill D
Date: 09 Oct 08 - 01:58 PM

"Obama is running ads in Florida which reportedly suggest that McCain is a bigot.

really? Do they have "I am Barack Obama and I approved this message"?

" reportedly suggest" is kinda vague. What do they say? Or is this just creative interpretation?

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Little Hawk
Date: 09 Oct 08 - 02:00 PM

Bingo, Rig!

It's an elegantly simply system, isn't it? It reminds me of those elaborate soap opera like feuds that are stretched out for a year or more in professional wrestling, all of it pre-calculated and choreographed, all of it apparently swallowed without question by the legions of morons who troop out faithfully, buy tickets, and fill the stands as two overly muscled brutes pretend to be engaging in a real wrestling match, complete with fake blood, dirty tricks, and a ref who apparently can't see anything that's happening right in front of him...

"OH! The PILEDRIVER! You KNOW that has to hurt! Will the Masked Marvel be able to recover from that one? And what about his girlfriend, Miss Angela? Has she really betrayed him and run off with the Macho Man? OH! This crowd is in a frenzy!!!"

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Big Mick
Date: 09 Oct 08 - 02:01 PM

Bruce, my friend, and ake, if I need to point out the difference between what hanging a black man in effigy symbolizes, and what making a political statement by hanging a President in effigy symbolizes, then there is no hope for you. One is a symbolic statement on a politician and his/her policies. The other is a symbolic statement of hatred for black people by using a symbol that has actually been used to terrorize people.

From the Anne Hills/David Roth song "That Kind of Grace" which I sang at the Getaway:

Friday evening in Mobile,
Klansman killing time
Saw young Michael walking past,
he would do just fine.
Quiet student, Mother's best,
pleading for his life.
Strung him up to make a point,
sharper than a knife.....

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: akenaton
Date: 09 Oct 08 - 02:10 PM

These two Parties are both perfectly capable of using racism in their own interests if they think the circumstances warrant it.

One is not morally superior to the other!

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: akenaton
Date: 09 Oct 08 - 02:12 PM

Excellent metaphor Rig!

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Bobert
Date: 09 Oct 08 - 02:20 PM

Plus, it should be pointed out that these symbolic hangings are not being done at any Obama campaign events nor events sponsored by the Democratic Party...

Might of fact, I'm not sure that these symbolic hangings are occuring anywhere... I've attended some very rowdy anti-war demonstrations where props and signs say and suggest alot of stuff but I can't remember any that in anyway threatened the persoanl safety of Bush, Cheney or anyone, for that matter...

No, what I think we have here is the usual "baloney defense" by those who have been caught in an ugly position in them proclaming that the other side is doing it, too??? Oh yeah??? Sources, por favor that Obama backers have either yelled "Kill him" in regards to McCain or burned him in effigy...

So, for you folks who think this is okay please provide your sources where the Dems are doing this...

BTW, Ake, my friend... This issue isn't about the two party system... It's about how civilized people are supposed to live with one another...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: akenaton
Date: 09 Oct 08 - 02:30 PM

Well Bobert...I think it is about the two Party system.
I don't think there are any racists on this forum(Ms Azizi has been searchin' diligently) and if she can't come up with one of the varmits, nobody can.

No..the parties will use any means at their disposal to sit at the top of the shitheap........Short of REAL change...Ake

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 09 Oct 08 - 02:31 PM

GUEST,Heric said, in part:

McCain said, "It's not that hard to fix Social Security."


His quote is used out of context. He said everyone knows what has to be done. He meant that the math wasn't hard.

Heric, have you been in his head? Has he told you what he meant?

Unless one of those is true, then you don't know what he meant. You are merely fastening an apologetic supposition onto what he said.

He SAID, "It's not that hard to fix Social Security," and yes, it is going to be hard, hard, hard.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 09 Oct 08 - 02:41 PM

The "Kill Him" cries are also legally interesting. Was it not the crosing of the dividing line from protected free speech to incitement of crime that exposed the assets of teh KKK to the civil rights movement?

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: akenaton
Date: 09 Oct 08 - 02:49 PM

This discussion is getting slightly out of kilter.
No one is defending those who cried "kill him".

Surely the killing of Blacks was never a Republican preserve.

This discussion was about the attitudes of members to the tactics employed by the two Parties in different sets of circumstances

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Big Mick
Date: 09 Oct 08 - 03:00 PM

From beardedbruce:I seem to recal a number of effigies of Bush , Cheney, and Rove that were being hung, with no protest by any here....

From akenaton:Bearded Bruce has a valid point about the hanging of effigies.
Why does Alice or Amos who appear to be the most partisan Dems, not address that point.

I simply addressed the point.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Bill D
Date: 09 Oct 08 - 03:11 PM

WHOEVER yelled "kill him" (and it was only ONE misguided idiot, as far as we know) did so during and in response to, Palin's whipping up the crowd with a series of provocative insinuations about Obama's character and patriotism!

She may or may not have even heard the shout...but she INTENDED to cast doubt on, to coin a phrase, 'Obama-ness', rather than just promoting her Republican beliefs and policies in comparison to Democratic beliefs & policies. It is a sad commentary that, panicked at losing ground, they need to resort to mud-slinging innuendo to distract folks from the actual issues.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 09 Oct 08 - 03:16 PM

Washington Post article about an interview of Joe Biden by Diane Sawyer. She played the SNL debate skit for his response and he was laughing the rest of the time.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: heric
Date: 09 Oct 08 - 03:57 PM

>" reportedly suggest" is kinda vague. What do they say? Or is this just creative interpretation? <

I don't know. If they don't then it's a bad example but doesn't affect the point made. Can't google it right now.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: heric
Date: 09 Oct 08 - 03:59 PM

(Something about immigration I'm sure.)

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: heric
Date: 09 Oct 08 - 05:15 PM

>Heric, have you been in his head? Has he told you what he meant?<

I just listened to him and placed the sentence in context. The transcript will have the next couple of sentences. It makes perfect sense as I heard it. Soc. Sec is a simple actuarial numbers game. Medicare, on the other hand, is highly complex.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: heric
Date: 09 Oct 08 - 05:21 PM

BillD: I had to say reportedly because I haven't seen it - here's the quote from the Economist:

"And fighting pretty dirty. One of Mr Obama's television ads warns, falsely, that Mr McCain plans to cut public pensions in half. Another spot, in Spanish, suggests that Mr McCain is a bigot. The ad blames "John McCain and his Republican friends" for the failure of immigration reform, and implies that he agrees with Rush Limbaugh, a rabble-rousing talk-show host who once referred to "stupid, unskilled Mexicans". In fact, Mr McCain was one of the two main sponsors of immigration reform, a brave stance that earned him the enmity of Mr Limbaugh."

http://www.economist.com/world/unitedstates/displaystory.cfm?story_id=12341739

It may be a creative interpretation - I don't know.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Azizi
Date: 09 Oct 08 - 05:25 PM

akenaton, re your 09 Oct 08 - 02:30 PM that referred to me, I have much better things to do with my time here and elsewhere than to "search for racists".

Unfortunately, I and other people of all races and ethnicities meet up with racists and with people who are prejudiced when and where we least expect to.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Bobert
Date: 09 Oct 08 - 05:47 PM

What the McCain folks are doing is trying to play on old fears of which many white folk have spent a life time trying to rid themselves... This is not only base as base can be but downright...

...wreckless...

This speaks volumes about how a McCain/Palin administration would operate if they were to get into power and it is MO that they would take the US back to the days of Jim Crow...

There is no excuse for this...

As for Obama running ads calling John McCain a bigot... If it doesn't say at the end, "I'm Barak Obama and I approve this message" then it is a bogus ad and not his...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Bee
Date: 09 Oct 08 - 06:13 PM

I am personally a firm supporter of unions, which are not perfect, but I strongly believe are the best bastion we have against the excesses of employers. I know some of you have strong anti-union views. The article I'm linking to has a recent speech, on video, of a union man supporting the Obama campaign. He addresses the issue of racism directly, something I've seldom seen in this campaign - it's always referred to as a nervous aside. I thought it was a strong speech. YMMV.

http://scienceblogs.com/mikethemadbiologist/2008/10/folksiness_and_the_swing_vote.php#more

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Alice
Date: 09 Oct 08 - 06:43 PM

I read some of the messages posted to the guestbook on the Rednecks4Obama.com web site (see that thread) and it brought tears to my eyes.
A message written from Kentucky why the person is supporting Obama "
He has the right answers and we need to move past race in dealing with our countries problems. We all share this country. "

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Bill D
Date: 09 Oct 08 - 07:49 PM

well, heric, I just did a lot of searching, and the most I can find is some references to 'an Obama ad' that claims Limbaugh quotes were taken out of context. IF the ad was shown only in Florida, I can't find it...

That doesn't sound like the usual Obama ad.I do know that ads are 'sometimes' either faked or produced without the candidates knowledge. I'll wait for more details before I comment further.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Bobert
Date: 09 Oct 08 - 08:03 PM

And being inside the Obama campaign it just seems foreign that he would back any ad that calls McCain a "bigot"...

Me thinks there is no supportive evidence that this has occured...

My own persoanl opinion, however, is that John McCain is very much a bigot... But that is not said in the name of the Obama campaign... Just my observations over the last few days and especially since the "That one" comment...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Oct 08 - 09:01 PM

That video link on Bee's post didn't work for me. Here's a link direct to the speech on YouTube which seems to work better.

Powerful speech. It's good to be reminded that this side of America exists. And good to see the way the hall responded.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 09 Oct 08 - 09:14 PM

BB-
The people, generally speaking, who are hanged in effigy are the (unpopular) ones in power. I would have thought that was obvious.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Alice
Date: 09 Oct 08 - 09:56 PM

Thanks for that link to the AFL-CIO speech. That is the most powerful speech I have heard in this entire campaign.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Ron Davies
Date: 09 Oct 08 - 10:12 PM

Sorry: it is perfectly stupid to say Social Security can be fixed easily--since all parties know it is a political question to the n th degree. So that statement is meaningless.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Ebbie
Date: 09 Oct 08 - 11:47 PM

I find something very odd about what is going on. Today's news showed a Palin/McCain rally that displayed Republican panic and fury far, far more volatile than the disgust and dishearten-ment- and what? fear? - the Democrats showed when it appeared quite clear that a Republican could/would win in 2000 and especially in 2004.

I remember Democrats and other 'unchurched' feeling and threatening to leave the country if the Republicans got into office- I do NOT remember anyone acting the way the Repugnicants did today.

It's enough to make a person fear what is over the horizon.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Riginslinger
Date: 10 Oct 08 - 12:00 AM

There ain't nothin' to fear as long as Obama don't win!

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Azizi
Date: 10 Oct 08 - 02:39 AM

Some folks here may find this dairy and its accompanying comments interesting reading:

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/10/9/173349/097/963/625503

"The guy McCain insulted on TV? Here's what he's saying...(Now with Poll)"
by Jsn
Thu Oct 09, 2008 at 02:50:33 PM PDT

The diary includes videos of Clark's question and McCain's and Obama's responses. For the sake of readers here who may not have seen the debate and aren't able to see the video, here's my summary of McCain's insult: McCain indicated that Clark probably didn't know what Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac were; MccCain didn't mention Oliver Clark by name when he responded to him; and {but} in his respond to Clark's question, McCain remembered the name of the first questioner who was White and said that Frannie and Freddie Mac help "Americans like Allen stay in their homes."

Here's an excerpt of that dairy. I added the italics to indicate which comments were the diarist and which were Oliver Clark's. :

Meet Oliver Clark. Here's what he's saying now, in response to this historically-insulting encounter.

Well Senator, I actually did. I like to think of myself as a fairly intelligent person. I have a bachelor degree in Political Science from Tennessee State, so I try to keep myself up to date with current affairs. I have a Master degree in Legal Studies from Southern Illinois University, a few years in law school, and I am currently pursuing a Master in Public Administration from the University of Memphis.

Turns out Oliver Clark has a Facebook page. People have understandably been pressing him for a followup, so he's been posting his thoughts. Here's more:

In defense of the Senator from Arizona I would say he is an older guy, and may have made an underestimation of my age. Honest mistake. However, it could be because I am a young African-American male. Whatever the case may be it was somewhat condescending regardless of my age to make an assumption regarding whether I was knowledgeable about Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac.

Was Clark really an "undecided voter"? Turns out the casting people were willing to stretch the point a bit.

I have a Nashville area code for my cell phone. So the Sunday before last, I received a call from the Gallop Poll. They asked a few questions regarding my choice in the Presidential election. They asked who I would vote for. I said most likely I would be voting for Barack Obama. They followed with, "is there any chance that you would change your mind"? I said "Of course anything is possible." They then asked me as an uncommitted voter would I like to participate in the Town hall debate. I said "Of course!"

How did he get his moment in the spotlight?

I had no idea they would choose me to ask a question. They told us to think of one or two questions we would like to ask the candidates if we had the opportunity. I asked a lot of friends and family what I should ask and the consensus was a question on the economy. Tom Brokaw came the morning of the debate and collected our questions and said he along with his team would review all the questions and decide which ones would be asked. About 3 minutes before the debate a fellow town hall participant sitting behind Brokaw looked over his shoulder and saw that 78 had the second question to ask. He mouthed over to me that I would have the second question. I did not believe him, but I still looked back over my question to make sure I would not look stupid! (Whether I did or not that for you to decide) Brokaw asked the first question then came to me. I stood up and asked and my question was in essence how was the bailout package going to help the average American?

Besides that whole, you know, insult thing, how was McCain's response to your question?

Well, Sen. McCain answered the questions with attacks on Barack and did not address how this package was actually going to help out the average American. Not to mention attacks on myself, but that question is to follow. He did say he warned the public of the forthcoming crisis, which I guess was a good thing????

So, he won you over. Right?

I felt Sen. Obama addressed the issue more directly then Sen. McCain did. Obama actually stated that the bailout package was going to help Americans buy homes and stay in their homes.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Azizi
Date: 10 Oct 08 - 02:55 AM

For the record, I'd like to note that Allen didn't mention anything in his question about having a home or being concerned about losing his home.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: bbc
Date: 10 Oct 08 - 07:12 AM

I am a registered Republican. After the Vice Presidential debate, I decided, for the first time, to refrain from voting. I cannot support Sarah Palin. The thought of her, possibly, representing our country to the world disturbs me deeply. McCain may have chosen her to garner votes he couldn't get on his own, but he lost me in the process. I had serious doubts about his candidacy to start with.

bbc

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Ron Davies
Date: 10 Oct 08 - 07:22 AM

As I've mentioned before, I'm also a registered Republican. I echo most of what bbc said, except that also, ever since Obama appeared on the scene, I have been very impressed with him--his obvious intelligence, his ability to think on his feet, his willingness to base his candidacy on a post-racial attitude, his realization that the US participation in the Iraq war has to end soon, etc. I have been looking forward to voting for him at least since April 2007.

It is also blazingly clear that Sarah Palin is worse than a bad choice. She is not only now inciting the absolute worst in her supporters, but her view of the "end times" makes her a danger to the entire world.

And anybody who claims to be against organized religion--which I am not-- but claims not to see this is an obvious hypocrite.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Bobert
Date: 10 Oct 08 - 07:28 AM

Well, bbc, the best way to to prevent Sarah from "representing our country" is to vote for Obama...

Thanks, MiziAzizi, for the excerts from (________) Clark's Diary... So it turns out that this guy probably, at least from an educational standard, is better to be qualified to be president than is McCain... Hmmmmmmm???

(I can't remember Clark's first name either but I remember McCain's answer and found it to be condescendeing...)

B~

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 10 Oct 08 - 07:30 AM

"his realization that the US participation in the Iraq war has to end soon"

"Some of the specifics of the conversations remain the subject of dispute. Iraqi leaders purported to The Times that Mr. Obama urged Baghdad to delay an agreement with Mr. Bush until next year when a new president will be in office "


"is an obvious hypocrite."

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Oct 08 - 07:37 AM

What does having an agreement with the US have to do with ending the war? The agreement is about the US wanting to keep its forces in Iraq, not take them out.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Ron Davies
Date: 10 Oct 08 - 07:42 AM

"purported" is weak even for you, BB. The fact is that Maliki himself said the US forces should be gone within 16 months--just as Obama said. The quote on this will not be hard to find. If you can't do it, I'll do it when I get back from work.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Ron Davies
Date: 10 Oct 08 - 07:44 AM

And don't worry about "hypocrite". It wasn't aimed at you, BB. Your tender ego is safe.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 10 Oct 08 - 07:58 AM

"Mr. Obama urged Baghdad to delay an agreement with Mr. Bush until next year when a new president will be in office "


Interference with the ongoing negotiations is what I am claiming- his reasons are obvious- to get himself elected, which is more difficult if Bush has taken steps to conclude the Iraq war.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Oct 08 - 08:02 AM

Where is the documentation that this happened?

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Bobert
Date: 10 Oct 08 - 08:04 AM

Yeah, that sounds like a blogger to me, Carol, or else it would have been all over the news and McCain would gleefully bring it up every chance he could...

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Donuel
Date: 10 Oct 08 - 09:16 AM

Mr Bush* urged the president of Iraq that the timeline will not be the agreed upon 2010 pull out date but rather 2011 due to the current domestic turmoil in America.

*But it was not Mr. Bush but rather the dept of state.

that someone said Mr. Obama urged Baghdad to delay an agreement with Mr. Bush does not even make sense as anattack against Obama, Bush, necons or even Iraq.


"but rather 2011 due to the current domestic turmoil in America."
THis is waht the the President of Iraq said that he was told back in August.

This should give everyone pause in light of the fact the markets were sailing along well in August. Think about it. The State Deppartment has not had a crystal ball unless there are emergencies to be declared that are already planned.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Ebbie
Date: 10 Oct 08 - 10:34 AM

brrrrrrr

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Oct 08 - 11:03 AM

It would be pretty silly of anyone to make a deal on paper with a dead-duck president rather than wait a few weeks to know who is going to be in charge for the next four years.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 10 Oct 08 - 11:29 AM

BB said,

Interference with the ongoing negotiations is what I am claiming- his reasons are obvious- to get himself elected, which is more difficult if Bush has taken steps to conclude the Iraq war.

His reasons are NOT obviously what you are pleased to assign, BB.

The more likely reading, I think, is that it would be better for the status of forces agreement (which is not a treaty, and doesn't have to go before Congress) be worked out by Iraq and the new President, whoever he may be, who will have to deal with the consequences, rather than with a lame-duck, weak, unpopular President.

That is at least as obvious as what you suggested.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Irene M
Date: 10 Oct 08 - 11:54 AM

Can someone put me right please.
I thought Ralf Nader was standing again. I haven't seen any mention of him for months. Has he pulled out? (sorry if I haven't spelt his name correctly).

Irene (in the UK)

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Azizi
Date: 10 Oct 08 - 01:14 PM

Hello, Irene.

Ralph Nader is running again, but he's getting hardly any media attention because he has very little support. Therefore the number of people who will vote for him will not make any difference in who will be elected as USA president. Consequently [rightly or wrongly], Nader, and Bob Barr and other third party candidates were not invited to participate in the national debates.

**

Btw, I've just noticed that people in the UK use the phrase "standing for election" while people in the USA say "running for election". That's interesting. I'm not sure why there is that difference and what, if anything, it means.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Little Hawk
Date: 10 Oct 08 - 01:23 PM

You might just as well say, Azizi, that Nader is getting hardly any support because he has very little media attention. ;-)

Not that I'm saying he necessarily would get a lot of support...but what I am saying is that it IS media attention which makes a candidate marketable to the masses...and who gets it? Why, those whom the ruling system in its wisdom has decided should get it...right from the start...long BEFORE the public got to say "boo" about it.

The media could get anyone they wanted elected president in the USA. Just make sure to give that person the right kind of coverage, and lots of it, and make sure that all those who might cause problems in the plan get very little coverage...or the wrong kind of coverage.

Dead simple in a media-controlled society. You really have Orwell's 1984 already, courtesy of your national media and marketing systems, but people don't realize it because it still superficially looks as if it's a democracy.

That's clever on the part of those in charge, I must say.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Oct 08 - 01:23 PM

Harder to hit a moving target? (And we don't have so many guns around.)

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Little Hawk
Date: 10 Oct 08 - 01:36 PM

Apropos of what, McGrath?

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 10 Oct 08 - 02:03 PM

Azizi said, in part:


Btw, I've just noticed that people in the UK use the phrase "standing for election" while people in the USA say "running for election".

Hubert Humphrey, coming up about a year before one of the presidential elections, had been cagey about declaring himself as a candidate, and was asked by the Press: "Mr. Humphrey, are you running for President this time?"

He answered, "Well, more like jogging, I think."

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Oct 08 - 02:13 PM

A propos of Azizi's comment about "standing" for offie in the UK and "running" in the States.

I really should make a point of identifying the post I am referring to, that's the second time today someone has slipped in and posted while I've been writing my response.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Little Hawk
Date: 10 Oct 08 - 02:14 PM

Oh, I see... ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 10 Oct 08 - 05:24 PM

Correct me if I am wrong but are not
Cynthia McKinney
Gloria La Riva
Brian Moore, and
Roger Calerao (ineligible to serve if elected)

Still technically candidates too?

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: PoppaGator
Date: 10 Oct 08 - 06:14 PM

At least a few of those small-party candidiates are probably candidates in some but not all states.

Each state is actually holding a separate election. Our "Presidential" election is actually an amalgam of 50 state elections, each one serving to elect a slate of electors.

The electors are generally pledged to vote for their own party's candidate, and 48 of the 50 states conduct "winner-take-all" elections; that is, the "ticket" (the pair of presidential + vice-presidential candidates) that wins the sate's popular vote is awarded all of that state's electors. Maine and (I think) Nebraska are the exceptions.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Justin Urqhart (troll alert contact max)
Date: 10 Oct 08 - 06:39 PM

I honestly don't think America is ready for a black man with dreams of being president of the United States. Because I am prepared to say this (I speak the truth) half of you call me racist (not that I give a crap).

There is a Walton crew here who wants to live in a world in which you watch "A Wonderful World" at Christmas as a family and daddy gathers logs for the fire.

Americans don't tell the truth prior to elections. I really do think the Dems, would set him up for a big blame game after his defeat. If he did get elected, (moon dreaming) and he got whacked, we would be landed with another Martin Luther King all over again.As I say, America is more ready for a white female president than a Black male President right now.   

The Dems, are fighting a dirty war out there and there is no call for it.
Anyway before you go vote… think logical and weigh out ALL options (Lane Bryan).

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Oct 08 - 07:02 PM

There is nothing racist in saying that there are too many racist Americans for Obama to get elected. Just pessimistic. I hope you're wrong. I think you are wrong, perhaps naively.

If Obama doesn't get elected, that of course is how it's going to be seen by people outside the States. We won't be surprised, just disappointed. And the people who hate the USA will be very pleased.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Little Hawk
Date: 10 Oct 08 - 07:11 PM

I'm sure there are many in America who would agree with you, Justin, in that they perceive it much as you do...but they're afraid to say so in public.

Me? I'm not sure if America is ready for such a transition yet or not. Hard to say. It wouldn't be easy for a lot of people to accept, that's for sure. Some would not accept it at all. Some would consider using violence to stop it.

There are also a number of democratic nations in Europe in which the majority White population would certainly not elect a Black man to their highest office...probably most of them. It would be too far outside their normal expectations of what the prime minister or president is "supposed to look like" ("he's supposed to look like 'we' do").

That this is so is pretty sad, but that's the way it is. People are afraid of what they are not used to.

But what's got me puzzled is...at what point is a person "Black" and "not White"?

Obama's half White. He had a White mother and a Black father. Does that mean he's "Black"? If it does, why? What percentage of Black genes makes you "Black" in someone's else's eyes? (as if it mattered anyway, for Christ's sake...)

People have a lot of growing up to do, don't they?

All that should matter is the usual stuff:   Intelligence, personal presentation, ideas, policy, education, past experience, the usual qualifications.

Is America ready to grow up? Is any country out there ready to grow up? Hmmm. Well, let me guess....I'm guessing no, probably not. We still live somewhere in the late Stone Age, as far as I can see.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Alice
Date: 10 Oct 08 - 07:15 PM

judged by the content of their character not the color of their skin

I think America is ready. I'm not the only one who thinks that, but I also know America is still a very racist and sexist country. Racism and sexism rears its ugly head even on Mudcat.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Amos
Date: 10 Oct 08 - 07:23 PM

The Dems are fighting dirty? Excyoooze me? The last survey that was done one-third pof Obama's ads were characterizable as negative, while over 80% of McCain's were. HE has stretched, trampled, twisted and distorted any way he could to try and instill some hatred or some fear.

As for racism, all I can say is that given that you yourself do not know "AMerica" in all its wondrous particulars, you may be projecting. I disagree with your projection.


A

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Azizi
Date: 10 Oct 08 - 07:28 PM

Some folks here may find this dairy and its accompanying comments interesting:

Evolutionary Leaps and American Public Opinion
Posted by Al Giordano - October 8, 2008 at 3:57 pm By Al Giordano
http://narcosphere.narconews.com/thefield/evolutionary-leaps-and-american-public-opinion#comments


Here's an excerpt of that dairy:

"Scientists are divided over whether the evolution of species follows a straight and plodding path or has experienced relatively sudden "leaps."

I won't wander into that debate. But I do find a 2004 experiment at the University of Texas at Austin to be possibly relevant to the 2008 elections. There, engineers and scientists forced an evolutionary leap on bacteria in a laboratory essentially by "stressing the patient." A small adjustment in amino acids, and, presto, a new mutation was born.

The current economic crisis, according to the American Psychologists Association, has stressed eight of ten Americans significantly.

And this is where race-baiters like Ron Fournier of the Associated Press have the story bass-ackwards. They're asking aloud and disingenuously so, "Is there racism in America?" I mean, like, duh: Did anybody ever claim there isn't? Their obsession - there's a CNN special on the topic on the air right now - masks a fear of the inverse: What if, suddenly, the story of this election becomes that moment in history when millions of American citizens evolved beyond fixed patterns and fears regarding race?...

Between the primaries and the present, other demographic groups that capitalism systematically attempts to divide among workers and the middle class - notably Hispanic Americans, and also others - have likewise moved big time into the Obama column after an initial skepticism and rejection in the primary ballots. Nobody can honestly say that tensions did not exist between Latinos and blacks, particularly in places - from gerrymandered legislative districts to schools and prisons - where the two categories of people have been forced to compete for terrain. And yet we're on the verge of a 70 percent Hispanic vote for Obama in four weeks...

The code-speak of the McCain campaign - and especially, in recent days, from its vice presidential candidate (someone who, herself, has led a life apart and segregated from African-Americans) and other surrogates - along the lines of "we don't know who Obama really is" has been a transparent attempt to invoke those heavily ingrained fears among certain sectors of the white population.

The multiple anecdotal reports of people using the N-word disparagingly but while also stating they're troubled about the economy and therefore undecided may indicate, rather than bad news, a glimpse of a possible evolutionary advance four Tuesdays from now.

The patient is being stressed, and as Dr. House or those University of Texas engineers can tell you, that process can sometimes lead to extraordinary discoveries.

What happens if the economic stresses suddenly push people, however reluctantly, into voting in their economic self-interest even if it means voting against their own racial prejudices? Well, then you're looking at an Electoral College landslide beyond even the current map and projections, and even at some unexpected states (Georgia, West Virginia or Mississippi, for example) that could surprisingly turn "blue."

(And if that leap occurs among even a relatively small number of folks in Appalachian Southwestern and Southeastern Ohio, that will definitively turn that state's 20 Electoral College votes toward Obama: that's part of the reason why Obama will be along the Kentucky border in Cincinnati and also in the town of Portsmouth - population 20,000 - tomorrow, and why he just spent three days in western North Carolina: he's stressing the patient in those strategic corners of Appalachia where the campaign's own data indicates some possible openings. That's also why you're about to see Joe Biden hit his hometown of Scranton together with the Clintons: this is the great electoral lab test, now underway.)

I'm not saying that it's going to happen (or that it has to happen for Obama to win; the math is there without having to scrape that barrel). Evolutionary leaps, if they exist, are not everyday occurrences. What I'm saying is that the patient - that racially fearful white American - is stressed and heavily so. And that's one of the objective conditions - according to at least one laboratory study - that leads to leaps in evolution and, maybe, just maybe, to mutations in the evolution of public opinion.

In the lab it took some stressed conditions plus a catalyst - some amino acids - to cause a species to evolve.

In human history, it takes stressed conditions... plus a movement".

-snip-

{Italics added here by me for emphasis}

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: heric
Date: 10 Oct 08 - 07:34 PM

I agree with your disagreement, Mr. A.

Many of those looking in aren't a gonna give the USA kudos for putting a black guy in the 50:50 slot for the Presidency, will preach on our inadequacies in cultural maturation and advancement, while none of their countries have or will, in the near term, come close to doing the same.

I have said from the start that voting for a guy to try and get all people of all countries to say nice things about the US is not a worthwhile endeavour.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Alice
Date: 10 Oct 08 - 07:37 PM

This thread has reached the point where anyone reading it who has not already watched the speech to the AFL-CIO on racism should watch it now.
Look at the speakers on the dais - all white - look at the audience - all white as far as I could tell - and all cheering and applauding for the END OF RACISM.
July 20, 2008


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7QIGJTHdH50
AFL-CIO's Richard Trumka on Racism and Obama

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Oct 08 - 07:43 PM

Little Hawk is probably right in saying that it'd be unlikely for a black person to be elected president, or wheatever, in most European countries. But I think maybe a main reason for that would be to do with with black people being seen as newcomers.

This isn't always true, they've been around for centuries; but black people from previous generations seem to have tended to get absorbed into the general population rather than being stuck out as a separate group. For example, I don't think that non-European ancestry would be seen as a problem with soemone who was seen as essentially English etc. (For example the former Tory party leader Iain Duncan Smith may have been a twit, but I doubt if the fact that he had Japanese ancestry was a signifcant element in putting people off him.)

In the USA, on the other hand, it is clear that black people have been around right from the start, and are every bit as much part of what makes up America as white people. More so in many cases.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Ebbie
Date: 10 Oct 08 - 08:29 PM

Interesting. What you said, McGrath, made me realize more forcibly that we - the nondescript-skinned ones - make a distinction between 'Blackness' and 'Asian-ness'. For instance, a number of states - Oregon among them- have Asian governors and senators and representatives and officials at all levels of government. At this point, we appear to be more accepting, more comfortable, with the prospect of a potential Japanese or Chinese or Nepalise or Lebanese person as President of the United States than a Black man or woman. Wonder why? Black people, as has been noted, have been here a long time.

Might it have something to do with a lingering guilt?

For me and my house - to bring in a time-honored phrase- it is a no-brainer. I think we are ready to have a Black/White man as President and we will be glad for the chance to signal to the world that we are. If not now, when?

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Little Hawk
Date: 10 Oct 08 - 09:50 PM

It has to do with fear, Ebbie, fear that is deeply bound up in the ghosts of America's past and the realities of America's present.

Many Whites fear Blacks. Many Blacks fear Whites. That is something that's really happening, and you can feel it on the streets of American cities. You can feel it on the streets of Canadian cities too, though to a lesser extent. Yes, and guilt is a part of it, and the sense of being among a group of "victims of prejudice" is a part of it, but the guilt and the victimhood is overshadowed in many cases by the fear.

Those fearful images are reinforced in people's minds over and over again by our movies, our media, our popular entertainment.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 10 Oct 08 - 10:35 PM

Why then would you feel it on the streets of Canadian cities? I can't make any sense of that.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Azizi
Date: 10 Oct 08 - 10:41 PM

Racism is so old school. It's time for new ideas, new attitudes, new actions.

On election day in the USA 2008, I predict that concerns about pocketbook issues will trump concerns about race for many individuals who still have those concerns.

In spite of the fact that they may still clinging to racial fear, and inspite of the fact that they may still think that Black people as inferior to White people, some White people will vote for Barack Obama because they recognize that he is a better man for the job of President of the USA than John McCain.

Barack Obama will be elected president and he will be the president of all Americans, even those who fear and/or dislike Black people.

And fifty years from now our descendants will wonder why we wasted so much time and so much energy on inconsequential stuff like the color of other people's skin.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Little Hawk
Date: 10 Oct 08 - 10:43 PM

You must be joking to ask me that.

Because the effects of American culture don't end at the Canadian border, that's why. They just ease off a bit.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Little Hawk
Date: 10 Oct 08 - 10:48 PM

That was directed to heric...

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 10 Oct 08 - 10:49 PM

You are so right, Azizi.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 10 Oct 08 - 10:52 PM

(No, LH, I don't follow it at all.)

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Azizi
Date: 10 Oct 08 - 10:57 PM

In my opinion, this point is too important to leave that typo uncorrected. So here is that sentence again:

In spite of the fact that they may still clinging to racial fear, and inspite of the fact that they may still think that Black people are inferior to White people, some White people will vote for Barack Obama because they recognize that he is a better man for the job of President of the USA than John McCain.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Little Hawk
Date: 10 Oct 08 - 11:06 PM

No doubt, Azizi, and I hope there are a lot of them who do as you say.

If I was there to vote I would vote for Obama because:

1. I think he's a better candidate in every way than John McCain.
2. I like his attitude a lot better than John McCain's.
3. I don't care what his racial profile is. It simply doesn't matter. It is irrelevant, just as irrelevant as gender.

You vote for the person, not for their sexual organs or the color of their skin.

That is, unless you're just a wee bit stupid...

***

heric, I will PM you an explanation.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Azizi
Date: 10 Oct 08 - 11:08 PM

Also, some White people who have been raised to consider Black people beneath them, will either not vote in this election or will vote for Barack Obama because they know that John McCain is an old man with health concerns.

Another reason why these people who have been socialized to be prejudice against Black people may not vote at all or they may vote for Barack Obama is that they know that John McCain's vice-presidental running mate, Sarah Palin, is totally unqualified for the position of vice-president. And like other people in this country and in the world, they don't want Sarah Palin any where near that red button if John McCain were elected president but became unable to complete the responsibilities of that office.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 10 Oct 08 - 11:08 PM

There's a small problem in the near term, though, Azizi. Presidents are supposed to be pilloried, lampooned, detested by many, and the butt of cruel humour. It's part of the job. (The way I've heard it, no one got it worse than Abraham Lincoln.) So next year and for a while there is going to be an awful clamor while people claim they can separate the bigots from people just doing what they are supposed to do.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Bee
Date: 10 Oct 08 - 11:23 PM

Alice, if you look more closely at the audience in the union speech film, you'll find there are black people scattered through the crowd. That is a labour crowd, and labour is not all white.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 10 Oct 08 - 11:24 PM

"You vote for the person, not for their sexual organs or the color of their skin."

Noble sentiment, and true as far as it goes. BUT, in the US, you're really voting , not only for a person, but for a party and (hopefully) a philosophy of government. The best possible President is about as useful as secondary mammaries on an alligator if the other party controls the legislature.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Little Hawk
Date: 10 Oct 08 - 11:37 PM

Ah yes...well, I'd like to see both of those damned political parties stuffed down the garbage disposal of hell...but, alas, I expect they'll be with us till long after you and I are gone, Dick.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Big Mick
Date: 11 Oct 08 - 09:10 AM

Rich Trumka is the Secretary-Treasurer of the AFL-CIO, its second highest ranking officer. He was making a speech in response to the elephant in the room of labor, that being the racism that permeates the ranks of many of its member unions. The AFL-CIO, for those that don't know is a federation made up of many of the largest International Unions. It was formed as a merger between the American Federation of Labor which was the federation of craft unions (Carpenters, Steelworkers, Boot and Shoe workers, etc) and the Congress of Industrial Organizations which were the Industrial model of unions which organized all crafts working for an employer. Though labor stands for ending racism, the simple fact is that the "Reagan Democrat" is typically a union member. Trumka is taking a stand to say to these folks that it is time to stop voting against your own economic self interests, time to embrace the fact that race is a card being played by the capitalist to keep folks doing that. He is an admirable man whom I have met, and support. Just as in other parts of the world, when one scratches the surface of what appears to be one thing, usually under the scab you will find a money changer stirring the pot. It only serves the interests of those that want continued control over the wealth for the voters to make decisions on something as inconsequential as their genetic makeup.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Riginslinger
Date: 11 Oct 08 - 09:19 AM

It looks like Rezko is back in the news, and he's talking.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Bee
Date: 11 Oct 08 - 10:20 AM

Big Mick, I think it was a great speech. I've been a strong supporter of unions, and a union member for a good part of my employment. I've watched the Canadian arm of the UA make great strides in twenty years to eliminate gender discrimination in professions that were, and to a great extent still are, almost exclusively male. Now, the majority of these workers don't think twice about working alongside a woman doing the same job.

Though it's interesting that AFAIK Canadian union members tend, for the most part, to vote along liberal-socialist lines.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Ron Davies
Date: 11 Oct 08 - 12:56 PM

9:19

Correction:   Rezko is back in your head--not that he ever left-- and your drivel continues.

As for facts, not so much.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Oct 08 - 01:02 PM

If McCain's involvement in the Keating scandal doesn't disqualify him from being president, I don't think Obama has anything to worry about with regard to Rezko.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Irene M
Date: 11 Oct 08 - 01:35 PM

Thanx for the Nader info.

I do feel sorry for Obama. He cannot win. The whites see him as black and the blacks see the white in him.
We will see what happens in November, of course, but I see McCain being (narrowly) elected. The Dems were on a hiding to nothing when they narrowed the candidates down to Obama and Clinton. The electorate will, in I fear, many cases vote on the basis of skin colour. They would have avoided Clinton on the basis that she would never be able to keep both eyes on the ball. She would have a metaphorical ball and chain, in the shape of her husband. She would have to keep one eye on him. Even if he was behaving himself, there are plenty of little darlings who would be prepared to perjure themselves for the money and the 15 minutes of fame. How do you hope to be taken seriously as President?

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Azizi
Date: 11 Oct 08 - 01:53 PM

Oh! I just pmed someone and told him that I didn't intend to post to a thread about race for a long time, unless I was providing demographical information and/or cultural analysis of a song or children's rhyme.

However, Irene, I feel compelled to respond to your statement that "The whites see him {Obama} as black and the blacks see the white in him."

First of all, Irene, you are speaking in broad generalities.

And, frankly, I'm not sure what you mean by "the Blacks see the white in him".

If you mean that I {as a Black person} and other Black people in the USA don't consider Barack Obama to be "really Black" because he had a White mother, and/or was raised by his White grandparents in a community that has few Black people, I have to strongly disagree with you. Imo, both of your statements were failed primary strategies that were put out by the Clintons.

Few people in the USA who have been really following Barack Obama's campaign since Iowa and North Carolina would consider either of these statements as being the least bit credible.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Azizi
Date: 11 Oct 08 - 02:03 PM

Irene, I was too hasty. If by your statement that "the whites see him as black" means that White people consider Barack Obama's racial identity to be Black, then I agree with you.

But if you mean by that that a large {enough} number of White people won't vote for Obama because of his racial identity I disagree with you. The notion that White people won't vote for a Black person as president is part of the strategy that the Clintons were hoping for in the Democratic primaries. As you can see, that strategy and the notion that Black people wouldn't vote for a Black person who is mixed race failed.

Btw, I believe that it was rather stupid for anyone to believe that African Americans wouldn't vote for a person who is mixed racial, given that so many African Americans have mixed racial ancestry.

{And with that I hope to go back to lurking on this thread. At the very least, I chose not to address questions about the definition of who is or is not African American, including the silly notion that only people who had ancestors who were slaves in the USA can be considered African American. That was another failed divide & conquer primary strategy. By that definition, I'm not African American. As I said, that's just silly}.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Irene M
Date: 11 Oct 08 - 02:11 PM

Azizi. Thanks for that.
I have heard a number of people of mixed race, here in the UK bemoan the fact that each of those "races" focuses on the other one, when their skin colour is mentioned.
Maybe things have moved on over the Atlantic. I certainly hope so.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Amos
Date: 11 Oct 08 - 02:34 PM

Oddly enough, I do not think of him as Black. He's more of a tan color, as far as epidermal hue is concerned. I guess the notion of race depends on which kind of prejudice you grew up with. I grew up learning to be biased against hate-mongering, against sclerosis of the brainwave, and against those who had hardened heart-beams. The "race" I grew up with is the race of humans trying to know, or learn, or exchange ideas. The race I am prejudiced against is the race of humans who market fixed ideas, the pursuit of ignoral, and the celebration of stupidity. This is bigotry on my part, I admit, and I am working on outgrowing it, to whatever extent possible, but I find the canalization of these prejudices runs rather deep and is hard to shed just by deciding to do so.


A

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Riginslinger
Date: 11 Oct 08 - 03:33 PM

I see him as elite and detached. But when Rezko sings, he's sure to come clean on Ron Davies.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Amos
Date: 11 Oct 08 - 04:00 PM

If by "elite" you mean the best of the crop, I am inclined to agree. That's what the word used to mean. But he is very well grounded in the matters of the ordinary life, and is as detached as he needs to be only so far as to avoid getting sucked into the kind of kneejerk reactionary opinionation which so many less-than-thoughtful people engage in in this country. Among whom, I might add, I count you as one.


A

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Riginslinger
Date: 11 Oct 08 - 04:03 PM

Hey, I didn't get a sweetheart deal on a house from Tony Rezko!

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Oct 08 - 04:39 PM

Yeah, but McCain did get lots of nice vacations and a lot of campaign finance money from Charles Keating. And Cindy got a sweetheart business deal with Keating as well.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Bobert
Date: 11 Oct 08 - 07:57 PM

Actually, I am voting for Barrak first becasue he is the best person for the job but also because of race...

Huh???

Yeah, I agree with Michael Moore's "Kill Whitey" chaptter in one of his books... I have been so screwed over by white people in my life that, yeah, I have become very leary of white people...

And I have spent alot of my life living with, working with and playing music with Black people and, guess what??? I find Black people to be more honest, more open and one heck of alot cooler than white people...

If that is racist then so be it...

(Yer gonna get it now, Boberdz...)

Who cares??? Hey, if race is gonna play a part in this election then some old white guys like me are gonna have to stand up and say, "Alot of White people ain't all that nice..." Case in point, just check out the rednecks that are linin' up to yell "Kill him" at Sarah Palin's rallies...

Would Black people, in general, act as poorly??? I seriously doubt it...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Little Hawk
Date: 11 Oct 08 - 08:09 PM

There was a time when I felt that way about Native Americans, Bobert. I liked them considerably better than White people, even though I am White. ;-)

Well, I eventually realized that there's no race that is inherently better or worse than any other race, but it took me quite awhile to figure that out, I must say. A lot of my romantic illusions had to fall.

Never judge the book by its cover.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Bobert
Date: 11 Oct 08 - 08:17 PM

Ain't about better, LH... It's 'bout class and grace... Black people have shown me alot more class and grace in their struggles than anything I am seein' no by angry White rednecks...

Yeah, I undersatnd the colorblind thing but...

... that's been my experience of having been raised in the South...

Wish it weren't so but....

B~

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Bill D
Date: 11 Oct 08 - 08:23 PM

Obama is a well-spoken, intelligent, concerned leader....who just HAPPENS to be of mixed heritage and a product of several cultures...(mostly American).
   I find this to be of enormous value and relevance when I contemplate him being president and dealing not only with domestic issues, but also with countries and issues around the world! American has been represented by men of one basic color & basic heritage since its beginning, and it's time we represented this 'melting pot' by having a fine leader who IS part of that melting pot! It's a bit like choosing Jackie Robinson to be the first to break the color barrier in baseball....he was GOOD, he was intelligent, and he was willing to absorb the crap until folks got used to him.

   It will be another generation before it will be easy for folks of other cultural backgrounds and 'colors' to be commonly elected to high office with little mention OF their ethnicity or color ..or gender... but Barack Obama is the perfect breakthrough. *IF* he does well and leaves office respected as a trusted, honest and reasonably competent leader, it will be huge leap in this country's ability to gain respect in the world and acknowledge the values of ALL its citizens!

   John McCain, for all his heroic service and attempts to cope, represents the past in many ways, and he shows it in his failure to 'get' what is necessary to lead in these trying times.

I hope be be here in 4...or 8... years to refresh this thread and say "I told you so."

Whoever wins in Nov. is inheriting one HELL of a situation, and it may take several years of the BEST leader & some good luck to dig our way out of this mess....I want Obama to win, buy I don't envy him.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Alice
Date: 11 Oct 08 - 08:39 PM

As someone in a generation younger than mine says, "racism is so 20th century".

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Little Hawk
Date: 11 Oct 08 - 08:50 PM

Well, Bobert, I will agree that there is a certain form of dignity and nobility that can be brought forth in any oppressed people when they are under the heel of oppression....and there is a certain ugly form of arrogance and sense of entitlement that can surface in some individuals of a group that's sitting pretty on the top of a social power structure.

I think we've all seen many examples of that.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Bobert
Date: 11 Oct 08 - 09:01 PM

Exactly, BillD and LH... That's what we are talkin' about...

And, Alice... Yeah, those youngin's coming behind us get it alot better than alot of folks of "my generation"... And that is a good thing... I just hope that Obama will be elected because it will validate so many of "my generation's" fights...

"If I should put my hammer down
before my time has come
Yeah, if I should put my hammer down
before my time has come
Take and bury my body down
'Long Highway 61..."

B~

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Alice
Date: 11 Oct 08 - 09:10 PM

In today's news:

DAVENPORT, Iowa (CNN) – A minister delivering the invocation at John McCain's rally in Davenport, Iowa Saturday told the crowd non-Christian religions around the world were praying for Barack Obama to win the U.S. presidential election.

"There are millions of people around this world praying to their god—whether it's Hindu, Buddha, Allah—that his opponent wins, for a variety of reasons. And Lord, I pray that you will guard your own reputation, because they're going to think that their God is bigger than you, if that happens," said Arnold Conrad, the former pastor of Grace Evangelical Free Church in Davenport.

The remark was made before McCain arrived at the rally but the Republican nominee's campaign quickly put out a statement distancing itself from the remarks.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Bobert
Date: 11 Oct 08 - 09:30 PM

Why now.... This has been the bread and butter of the McCain campaign... Tell ya'll what, folks... Over the last month McCain nas hit everything but the lottery... I mean, he has been all over the board...

If this is the way that he intends to goveern he'll make Bush look like FDR...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Riginslinger
Date: 11 Oct 08 - 09:35 PM

This only works with folks who are hopelessly addicted in the first place!

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Bill D
Date: 11 Oct 08 - 10:51 PM

*grin*.... You mean, Rig, that common sense is addictive? I do hope so! It's sure better than being addicted to some other things.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Oct 08 - 12:21 AM

Everybody's hopelessly addicted, Rig. Only question is...to what?

Let's hope it's something constructive.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Ebbie
Date: 12 Oct 08 - 12:34 AM

Bill D, you put that beautifully. I'm glad that Barack Obama is of both races. It's just fittin', a signal to the world that we so cavalierly flouted that we are heading in a different direction.

We *know* that someday the United States of America will have a Black president (as well, in time, a woman president, a president who is a Jew, a Hindu, a Chinese, a Japanese, a Filipino - whatever. This country was made strong by its mixed cultures and common aspirations. What does it matter what private religion the nominee espouses?) So why not NOW? If not NOW, WHEN?

Barack Obama is perfect for the moment, an intelligent, thoughtful, motivational, centered and focused symbol for the times. As Bill said, I don't envy him the job and I'm sure he is aware that the next president is going to take a beating, from both sides for a long time to come. Opponents will be hovering over him like a cat waiting for a mouse to move, his supporters will be defensive, knowing that any lasting improvement will take time. Both sides will be impatient, wishing for The Fix.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Riginslinger
Date: 12 Oct 08 - 01:07 AM

The only question that remains to be answered is, who is he really working for?

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: CarolC
Date: 12 Oct 08 - 02:01 AM

The voters.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: CarolC
Date: 12 Oct 08 - 02:04 AM

( ...actually, they all work for the $y$tem to one extent or another, but I think we can change that, but not if McCain gets elected)

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Joe Offer
Date: 12 Oct 08 - 03:05 AM

I think we all need to take a look at this video of the Palin-Biden Debate (from Saturday Night Live).
-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 12 Oct 08 - 05:25 AM

Well, I thought that wagoing to be mildly witty when it started.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 12 Oct 08 - 05:41 AM

For those like me who do not ahve a complete handle on US political smears, there folows the link to what wakeupamerica is saying. I'm still looking for a balanced and rational assessment -

http://wwwwakeupamericans-spree.blogspot.com/2008/10/breaking-story-prosecutor-fitzgerald.html

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Amos
Date: 12 Oct 08 - 09:03 AM

The WakeUp column is a study in gossip and innuendo. It cites no facts, offers no analytical thought, and seeks to instill false conclusions by implications and drab association. THis is the kind of mindlessness that the country needs to go cold turkey on, meaning walking away from a bunch of overheated turkeys. THere oughta be an MA meeting they could go to (Morons Anonymous).


A

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Bill D
Date: 12 Oct 08 - 10:04 AM

These sites and various other fear-mongers offer us, as Amos remarks, innuendo and suggestions couched in provocative form....

"What do we really know about Obama?"
"Why did he not rebuke Rev. Wright sooner?"
"Where do his loyalties really lie?"
...etc. into the distance

Which leads me to ask: "Do rhetorical questions actually serve to clarify anything or are they just reflections of the bias of the writer?"

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Amos
Date: 12 Oct 08 - 10:15 AM

The trouble is that someone glued to a radio or TV is predisposed to blind inflow, and is already demonstrating a willingness to suspend analytical discrimination about what is being said.

For those voters who are not accustomed to parsing bull, or who tend to be easily led, gullible, or semi-hypnotic in their mental state, this sort of emotional rhetoric produces emotional reaction, which is used as a substitute for understanding, and becomes a basis for the KN vote (know-nothing). To justify this suboptimum behavior, they resort to spouting bits and pieces of phrases in any combination they can.



A

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Bill D
Date: 12 Oct 08 - 10:19 AM

Well....he is just an Arab, isn't he? *grin*

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 12 Oct 08 - 10:58 AM

Well, I'd rather see Obama than McCain, even if Obama were bent, but it seems to be certain that Obama for some time had the use of a garden that he had not bought. The question in my mind became, "What was the quid pro quo". It is possible on the information to date that it was support for political appointments. Is that not so far plausible?

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 12 Oct 08 - 01:52 PM

Yes, you would expect him to want at least free home-grown vegetables for such an investment.

Obama's political climb and his absence of having done anything else (politically) impresssive to date worries me. Some might call me a racist for that, but whatever.

The Republicans have given us no other choice, however. None. Democrats' turn.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 12 Oct 08 - 01:58 PM

It's also possible that it was in return for having his soul sold to the Flying Spaghetti Monster.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 12 Oct 08 - 02:36 PM

That WakeUpAmerica blurt is pretty transparent:

"The rumble is"--   Rumble? To me, "rumble" clearly means "Rumor", or even "The rumor I'm trying to start."

The writer is putting into Rezko's mouth what (s)he would greatly like to hear, or what (s)he would greatly like the populace to believe.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Oct 08 - 03:46 PM

The Flying Spaghetti Monster does not buy souls. He's above that sort of thing.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Riginslinger
Date: 12 Oct 08 - 03:48 PM

Well, LH, at least we agree on that!

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Alice
Date: 12 Oct 08 - 03:52 PM

Now you're making me hungry for a hot bowl of pasta... it is snowing here in Montana, ya know.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: freda underhill
Date: 13 Oct 08 - 08:05 AM

Obama impressed me from the beginning with his call for politics of unjity, away from left/right dogmas.

I worry that, as he gets more and more popular in the polls, there may be some extremist act in America that targets him, either by physically attacking him or by creating a shocking event that intensifies the politics of fear.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 13 Oct 08 - 09:52 AM

A neighbor of mine forwarded a typical Republican slur email against Obama, with the subject line "forward this to everyone you know." I wrote back and asked her why on earth would I want to forward that nonsense, then a few hours later, I pasted the fact check information (it was an email with "quotes" from Obama books and some fabricated pro-Muslim stuff), I was very cordial, and I hit "reply to all." I knew I could dodge most of the s**t in return because my email is blocked, but some guy on that list had a post in my suspect mail this morning.

He said "this is why there's one best candidate" and had attached cartoons. I opened one randomly before I deleted the message, but it couldn't be clearer why Critical Thinking is a skill lost in America today. It portrayed various swarthy dictators alongside a tidy Fox News anchor at his desk, and said something like "name the one party Obama won't meet with." It's amazing how one statement that adds up to the idea that 'if you don't speak to your enemies you'll never be able to negotiate or understand them' can spin into this cartoon, and that more people will think the cartoon is correct than will ever hear the clear statement from Obama. And that Fox is a rational player in the national debate. Geez.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Riginslinger
Date: 13 Oct 08 - 10:08 AM

SRS - Do you know where the mail out originated. I mean was it official Republican business, or some other group?

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Amos
Date: 13 Oct 08 - 10:11 AM

Alice:

My condolences on the Snow. Rapaire says it is all the Mormons' fault.


A

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Bill D
Date: 13 Oct 08 - 01:22 PM

They get the snow, but they do seem to be resisting the McCain snow-job.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 13 Oct 08 - 02:50 PM

It wasn't official anything, no citations, no "facts," it was a racist attempt to scare voters. Same with the cartoon response. There are a lot of free agents in the political mix, trying to do their own little Swift Boat operations.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Bobert
Date: 13 Oct 08 - 05:19 PM

Actually, Obama did meet with Rupert Murdock a while back... It was at Mudock's request and Murdock asked Obama to appear on Fox and promised that Fox would be fair to him... Obama agreed and did appear on Fox (once)... When it became apparent that Fox had no intere3st in reporting real news and was just blasting away at him and other Dems, Obama decided once was enough...

Hey, would John McCain ever agree to appear on Keith Olberman??? I doubt it very seriously...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Amos
Date: 13 Oct 08 - 05:33 PM

I say this as a white, former life-long Republican. I say this as the proud father of a Marine. I say this as just another American watching his pension evaporate along with the stock market! I speak as someone who knows it's time to forget party loyalty, ideology and pride and put the country first. I say this as someone happy to be called a fool for going out on a limb and declaring that, 1) Obama will win, and 2) he is going to be amongst the greatest of American presidents.

Obama is our last best chance. He's worth laying it all on the line for.

This is a man who in the age of greed took the high road of community service. This is the good father and husband. This is the humble servant. This is the patient teacher. This is the scholar statesman. This is the man of deep Christian faith.

Good stories about Obama abound; from his personal relationship with his Secret Service agents (he invites them into his home to watch sports, and shoots hoops with them) to the story about how, more than twenty years ago, while standing in the check-in line at an airport, Obama paid a $100 baggage surcharge for a stranger who was broke and stuck. (Obama was virtually penniless himself in those days.) Years later after he became a senator, that stranger recognized Obama's picture and wrote to him to thank him. She received a kindly note back from the senator. (The story only surfaced because the person, who lives in Norway, told a local newspaper after Obama ran for the presidency. The paper published a photograph of this lady proudly displaying Senator Obama's letter.)

Where many leaders are two-faced; publicly kindly but privately feared and/or hated by people closest to them, Obama is consistent in the way he treats people, consistently kind and personally humble. He lives by the code that those who lead must serve. He believes that. He lives it. He lived it long before he was in the public eye.

Obama puts service ahead of ideology. He also knows that to win politically you need to be tough. He can be. He has been. This is a man who does what works, rather than scoring ideological points. In other words he is the quintessential non-ideological pragmatic American. He will (thank God!) disappoint ideologues and purists of the left and the right.

Frank Schaeffer on Huffpo

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Riginslinger
Date: 13 Oct 08 - 06:15 PM

They wouldn't publish you on the Huffington Post if you didn't say all of those things.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Oct 08 - 06:44 PM

The interesting thing about Arianna Huffington (Stassinopoulos in those days) is that when she lived in England, and became quite well known, her politics were what was counted here counted as pretty right-wing.

And I don't think there is any indication that those politics have significantly changed over the years. But in the context of the USA those rightwing politics evidently count as far left...

It's all relative.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: heric
Date: 13 Oct 08 - 06:58 PM

No, she changed drastically deliberately and overtly - after first cozying up to Newt Gingrich and the Contract On America when she arrived. She did a 180 after that.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Riginslinger
Date: 13 Oct 08 - 07:23 PM

It happened the minute she discovered Michael was gay!

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Amos
Date: 13 Oct 08 - 07:50 PM

Actually, the Post publishes a lot of different views, Rig, so your snidity is groundless, as usual.

THe interesting thing is that you had to attack the medium.

Not surprising, I guess, but not exactly highly rational., either.


A

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Donuel
Date: 13 Oct 08 - 08:49 PM

This month's cartoons are meticulous and took at least 1 to 6 hours each.
The thing is, some yahoo can merely utter some absurdity and the responses to the tripe are off to the races for hours and days.

Visual metaphoric insights and historic symbolism don't seem to have the juice that a good ol boy moron has when engaged in abject yahooism.

I am also dissapointed that so many people find it acceptable to compare apples and oranges by entering debates over what trumps what.

does race trump money, does money trump sex, do racists trump intellectuals...

I am embarrased for the people who do not see the trump debate for the small minded fear and loathing show that it is.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Ron Davies
Date: 13 Oct 08 - 09:08 PM

9 Oct 2008 1:13 PM: "it was on the radio...."

So then I suppose there are 2 questions arising from that:

1) Exactly why is the poster so stupidly gullible as to regurgitate anything he hears on the radio--rather than thinking it through? Since, as has been pointed out, "Kill him" was obviously not heckling of Gov. Palin. Too bad the poster has sworn off thinking--and not just for Lent.

And of course:

2) Why is the poster such a hypocrite?--since as has been noted, anybody truly strongly against organized religion would be strongly against McCain/ Palin.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Riginslinger
Date: 13 Oct 08 - 09:29 PM

"...anybody truly strongly against organized religion..."

             A number of people are against organized religion. Personally, I'm against any kind of religion at all. People thinking with clear heads is a better alternative, I think.


               "...why is the poster so stupidly gullible as to regurgitate anything he hears on the radio--rather than thinking it through?"


                  Ron - You keep creating these litte scenarios to demonstrate points the way you wished they had happened. Read the thread--the microphones picked up what Sarah Palin said when she put the heckler down, but it wasn't clear what the heckler was saying.
                        If you want him to have been saying, "Kill him," and that works for you, I'll just have to take your word for it. Frankly, I don't know.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Oct 08 - 09:30 PM

"as has been noted, anybody truly strongly against organized religion would be strongly against McCain/ Palin"

Not necessarily. He would definitely be strongly against their specific beliefs and utterances regarding religion (and he is), while in a more general sense he might still support their campaign over Obama's for a host of other reasons that seemed relevant to him...given the fact that religion is simply NOT the ONLY issue in this campaign!

In other words, Ron, if he was an instrument capable of playing only 1 note, then he would have to abide by the fractured sense of logic you are attempting to bring to the discussion. But he's not... ;-) He is an instrument that can play many different notes. And this election is not just about religion. ;-)

To admit this would deprive you of the joy of calling him a hypocrite, and that is why you won't admit it. It would interfere with the fun you have captaining the "Sneers 'r Us" team.

Challenge Rig on a REAL basis, Ron. God knows, there is plenty of real basis on which to challenge him.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 15 Oct 08 - 09:17 PM

Oh dear - I better not misunderestimate him I guess but 8 minutes in JM looks like a confused hamster running on three legs.



Brings to mind, with some foreboding, The Germans episode of Fawlty Towers: "How did they ever win?"

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 15 Oct 08 - 10:30 PM

Why does McCain keep talking about children with autism and saying "Sarah Palin knows about that." Sarah Palin has a child with Down Syndrome who is only months old. Autism is detectable later on, as I understand it. Does she also have a child with autism?

Other than this observation, McCain keeps harping on the same nonsense, and I find it remarkable that in these debates he can sit there across from Obama and lie about Obama's policies and proposals. Does he believe that if he keeps saying these things often enough they will come true?

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: catspaw49
Date: 15 Oct 08 - 10:41 PM

Karen showered and got ready to leave for work then walked into the den and sat down to watch. Within about a minute of split screen viewing she asked, "Does McCain have a rod up his ass or what?"

McCain's actions off screen were telling. It started out with Obama a bit quiet and subdued but he soon gained the passion he needed. McCain was certainly on the offense and often offensive. Obama did very well on the repudiation of the Ayers crap and is worth watching if for nothing else his calm response with reason and humor.

McCain had his best debate but it was not strong enough.


Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: TIA
Date: 15 Oct 08 - 10:49 PM

I just heard McCain talking about pregnant young women "facing such a difficult choice".....

Hmmmmm.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: TIA
Date: 15 Oct 08 - 10:50 PM

BTW - I know Joe the Plumber. NO SHIT!

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Amos
Date: 15 Oct 08 - 10:52 PM

Obama came out the winner on points. McCain held hi temper well, and did not freak out, but he was prone to nasty false statements--which Obama would just shake his head and smile at--and he did, indeed, like he had a rod up his ass and strings on his cheeks. He looked stiff and had a forced visage of artificial attention.

His closing remarks were good. Obama's were, as well.

On the specific issues, Obama was consistently presenting positive plans with clear descriptions. McCain, not so much, often resorting to general "good iseas" instead.

I think the consensus will be "A good debate, winner Obama."


A

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 15 Oct 08 - 11:03 PM

How did we get to the point where our most esteemed spokesperson, famous for his eloquence and poise, spouts "gonna hafta" ad infinitum?

Even my friend the gardener and Palin supporter thought it was ridiculous for each of them to be promising all sorts of candy if you vote them in. ("Everybody gets $5,000.00," etc.)

I sure want this to be over.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Alice
Date: 15 Oct 08 - 11:18 PM

CBS poll of undecideds:

Who won the debate?

Obama 53
McCain 22

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Alice
Date: 15 Oct 08 - 11:21 PM

MediaCurves independents: Obama 60, McCain 30.

CNN poll from the TV: Obama 58, McCain 31.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Ron Davies
Date: 15 Oct 08 - 11:36 PM

McCain had the best line of the night: "I am not George Bush". But Obama was far stronger on what I think--and hope--are far more significant to independents--and that's where the race will be decided. Obama took McCain's health care plan apart before his eyes--especially pointing out that McCain's plan will very likely result in many sick and needy losing coverage as their employers drop their own coverage when the young and healthy flee to cheaper plans, and the employers raise their rates to cover the new situation. I've seen this prediction also in the WSJ.

For some people, the "I'm all right Jack" attitude embraced by McCain is just fine. For anybody concerned about fairness, however, it's abominable--and typical of the Bush/McCain policies--since in many respects they are identical--despite McCain's good line in the debate.

Obama was also very strong in describing how we can create new jobs in the US in the emerging "green economy"--starting with more efficient cars.

And McCain slit his own throat, right on cue--and as predicted-- by dragging Ayers into
the debate. Obama was ready for him. And McCain's negative campaigning was put on display for the whole country to see. Negative campaigning is a loser in attracting independents--and anybody else who thinks.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: John O'L
Date: 15 Oct 08 - 11:59 PM

Obama was waving, McCain was drowning.

At this stage the presidency is Obama's to lose.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Janie
Date: 16 Oct 08 - 12:11 AM

Obama is clearly smart and as savy as all get-out when it comes to image and presentation. A much better manipulator than is McCain. He seems quite calculating. Not attributes I personally admire but probably very necessary attributes of an effective leader of a diverse country. In some ways, he reminds me of LBJ. I hope he truly has some measure of vision and integrity.

More than that, I hope that he and the Congress that gets elected are on the same page.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Sawzaw
Date: 16 Oct 08 - 12:20 AM

The more something looks like a sure thing, the more it is not.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Janie
Date: 16 Oct 08 - 12:43 AM

Sawzaw

You may be right.

But I hope not. I am not enamored of Obama, but think both my own paradigm and the very different paradigm out of which McCain operates are dated and unworkable in this first decade of the 21st century. I think Obama is much more capable of leading this country in a workable direction for the present and future than is McCain. I can't quite step out of my own paradigm and embrace Obama with enthusiasm, but I do get that I am a dinosaur.

Janie

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Donuel
Date: 16 Oct 08 - 12:49 AM

Joe the Plumber gets it. Joe is often up to his elbows in shit and so is the country.
We now know two Joea. Joe Six Pack by his drunkeness and Joe the Plumber for his butt crack.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 16 Oct 08 - 12:52 AM

I'm confused. How many middle-class working plumbers are in a position to buy a business that nets a quarter of a million per year? And with that kind of net, who would worry much about a small incremental tax?

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Janie
Date: 16 Oct 08 - 12:59 AM

Good one, Don.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Barry Finn
Date: 16 Oct 08 - 01:20 AM

Well Obama is very worthy of the office he's about to occupy. As far as what I saw tonight was a snead, condesending man who attacked plans that sounded workable while offing "I can do this" as his only offering. $5000 won't take me on a walk through the park & all I could think of was he'll tax that too when he gets round to it. Is that all you got? Please say it ain't so John, is that all there is? "I'm not Bush!" Was the best he could do, well he couldn't have fooled very many cause he's got the same preachy false insincere tone in his voice when he's offering up the same Bush policies.
The shame of MaCain is that the best he can do is to try to tear into Obama's personility & policy when he can't really give a clear policy of his own besides "I can do this", "do what" is the next question! After he pushed Obama for an amount on the health fine issue & Obama shot a zero back MaCain just couldn't swallow it & went back again like a brick thick headed ignormaus & tried a repeat that agin fell flat.
I'm happy that the republicans don't have anyone better to offer up than this pair of Miss Leaders, they come all dressed up for the party & end up crashing the play.
What were they thinking?
Barry

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Azizi
Date: 16 Oct 08 - 02:11 AM

What was McCain thinking?

-confusing Sarah Palin's child's medical condition. He has Down Syndrome and not autism.

-saying that troops could be teachers without certification. What?! Sure, being in the military automatically means that you can be a good teacher. [snark]

-saying a women's health wasn't important in cases of abortion. McCain lost a ton of women voters with that statement.

And then there was his refusal to repudiate those persons at his rallies who called Obama a terrorist and shouted that he should be killed..Disgraceful!

But imo, the reason why all the television network focus groups-including the Republican's own Fox News- overwhelmingly voted Obama the winner of all three of the presidential debates was more a matter of the difference between the two candidate's tone, body language, and overall image than what they said.

Obama not only had substance, he was cool & consistent under fire. In a word, he was Presidential.

And McCain? He was a nasty, sneering, angry old man, not someone who inspires confidence. And given that we are involved in two wars and a worsening economic crisis, Americans {and the rest of the world} need to feel confident in our President.

Three more weeks. Then Obama/Biden will be elected President and Vice President. And McCain can go back to one of his houses and Palin can go back to Alaska.

Hallelujah!

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Bobert
Date: 16 Oct 08 - 07:31 AM

Word here in Pine Grove Holler is that McCain is gonna dump Ms. Sarah and put Joe the Plumber on the ticket... lol...

But really, these debates have shown one thing and that is when ya' take the a guy who was 5th from the bottom of his class and put him in the ring with the guy who was 1st that the guy 5th from the bottom is gonna get his clock cleaned 100 time outta 100...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: kendall
Date: 16 Oct 08 - 07:58 AM

I thought Mcwar was winning until he made that awful gaff about abortion! The women will get him for that. What can you expect from a man who calls his wife the most disgusting word in the English language?

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Bobert
Date: 16 Oct 08 - 08:05 AM

Did he really call her a "Republican", Capt'n??? Man, that's crass...

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Jeri
Date: 16 Oct 08 - 08:32 AM

Palin's sister has a son with autism.
The military/teacher connection is the Troops to Teachers program, and it's not without requirements for the 'troop' to meet.

See factcheck.org on the debate.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Azizi
Date: 16 Oct 08 - 08:39 AM

It turns out that Joe the Plumber {Joe Wurzelbacher of Ohio} is not even registered to vote.

And it's being reported that Joe's father Richard Wurzelbacher of Ohio is a contributor to a right wing conservative PAC, his uncle Randy is a McCain supporter, and there is a Joe Wurzelbacher of Ohio who already owns a plumbing business.

http://www.politico.com/blogs/bensmith/1008/The_Joe_file.html?showall


So I guess Joe Wurzelbacher is not just a "regular Joe", after all.

I guess it's back to Joe Sixpack for McCain-Palin.

Frankly, I prefer Joe Biden. He's the real deal.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Ron Davies
Date: 16 Oct 08 - 08:58 AM

Added to which, it turns out it's unclear whether Joe was talking about a business which just grosses $250,000/ yr. Such a business would not see a tax increase under Obama's plan. According to the Obama campaign, the tax increase would only be levied on businesses which make $250,000 net profit/ yr.

And Joe Wurzelbacher has said that nobody, not even Bill Gates, should pay higher taxes.

So I think we know how reflective his ideas are of middle-class reality.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Azizi
Date: 16 Oct 08 - 09:00 AM

Here's a link to an article about Sarah Palin and her disability funding and advocacy:

http://specialchildren.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?zi=1/XJ/Ya&sdn=specialchildren&zu=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.autismvox.com%2Fpalin

AutismVox
Palin and the Disability Community
by Kristina Chew, PhD on September 15th, 2008

**

Here's an excerpt from that article:

..."Some parents of children with disabilities are enthusiastic over Gov. Palin's pledge of support, but advocacy on behalf of the disability community has not been "a centerpiece of Ms. Palin's 20-months in office or any of her campaigns for office."

"I never heard Governor Palin say as governor, 'You have an advocate in Juneau,' " said Sonja Kerr, a lawyer specializing in disability law in Anchorage.

A spokeswoman for Palin would not elaborate on her decision to give disability issues prominent placement in her acceptance speech.

John McCain has voted against increasing federal special education funding, and also opposes legislation that would help states move people with disabilities from institutions into community living arrangements.

From a guest post by the directors of the Beach Center on Disability in Kansas:

When a young governor line-item vetoes six appropriations for community disability services or for accessibility modifications to public accommodations, that governor gives us reason to be skeptical about promises and prospective performance. When the appropriations totaled $749,000 in a state that has a huge budget surplus, and when the governor apparently knew at the time that her nephew has autism, that governor gives us special reason to doubt her commitment to people with special needs.

Yes, state funding for "intensive special needs children" in Alaska increased for Fiscal Year 2010. But it is not yet clear exactly who those children are, how many of them are the intended beneficiaries of the appropriation, and precisely what role the governor had in proposing the appropriation or influencing the legislature to appropriate the funds.

In a word, Gov. Palin's record on disability leaves us with our doubts about her promise.

It also prompts us to concentrate on the governor's dismissive mockery of community organizing and its portent for the disability community.

The truth is that community organizing benefits people with disabilities"...

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Ron Davies
Date: 16 Oct 08 - 09:04 AM

Obama is also proposing a series of tax credits which would help small businesses.

He has proposed "a $3,000 tax credit for every new job that companies create in the United States over the next two years, a small business health tax credit on up to 50 percent of employee premiums paid by employers, and elimination of capital gains taxes on investments in small and start-up businesses."

Source: ABC News 16 Oct 2008.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 16 Oct 08 - 09:43 AM

>And it's being reported that Joe's father Richard Wurzelbacher of Ohio is a contributor to a right wing conservative PAC, his uncle Randy is a McCain supporter, and there is a Joe Wurzelbacher of Ohio who already owns a plumbing business.<

Wow. If this all turns out to be true, how could McCain have run an any more cynical campaign. I wondered at the time who Joe wanted to buy the company from.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Azizi
Date: 16 Oct 08 - 09:59 AM

Here's more on "Joe The Plumber":

Martin Eisenstadt's Blog

Joe "the Plumber" Wurzelbacher related to Charles "the Crook" Keating. Oops.

October 15th, 2008 . by Marty

John McCain did great tonight in the debate. But every time John mentioned "Joe the Plumber," some of us in the campaign banged our heads against the wall. If Steve Schmidt had any hair left, I hear he would have been pulling it out tonight. He reportedly screamed at John's debate prep team tonight (out of earshot of reporters, of course). "You idiots - he's related to Charles Keating… of the Keating Five scandal!" They thought they had a real live Joe Six-Pack who's spurned Barack Obama's tax plan. But what they forgot to do was check on Joe Wurzelbacher's background.

Turns out that Joe Wurzelbacher from the Toledo event is a close relative of Robert Wurzelbacher of Milford, Ohio. Who's Robert Wurzelbacher? Only Charles Keating's son-in-law and the former senior vice president of American Continental, the parent company of the infamous Lincoln Savings and Loan. The now retired elder Wurzelbacher is also a major contributor to Republican causes giving well over $10,000 in the last few years.

Does any of this make Joe the Plumber a bad guy? Of course not. In fact, after that ill-fated night at the Watergate, he may finally be giving plumbers a good name. But at a debate where John goes full bore on Obama for guilt-by-association with William Ayers (and dodges a bullet by Obama not mentioning Keating Five), the press is going to bring it back front and center by midday tomorrow once they delve deeper into the most popular plumber in America".

http://www.eisenstadtgroup.com/2008/10/15/joe-the-plumber-wurzelbacher-related-to-charles-keating-oops/

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: TIA
Date: 16 Oct 08 - 10:02 AM

I also think I heard McCain say "We can eliminate our dependence on foreign oil by building 45 new nuclear plants, power plants, right away. We can store and we can reprocess. Senator Obama will tell you, as the extreme environmentalists do, it has to be safe."

So, apparently it is an extreme position to say that nuclear power has to be safe?

Does that mean that the "moderate" position is that it does not have to be safe?

In the words of Mugatu, "I feel like I'm on crazy pills".

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Bill D
Date: 16 Oct 08 - 10:23 AM

Well....I would have wanted Obama to say a bit more on a couple of subjects, rather than just re-quoting some statistics I have heard 20 times...but.... it soon became evident he doing only the minimum needed to hold to his basic message and not take any chances. The goal, at this point in the campaign, is to WIN, not to introduce unpredictable variables. Kinda boring, but he has a nice lead, and McCain's campaign is doing a fine job of digging themselves a deeper hole.
He answered McCain clearly when necessary and allowed McCain to crawl out on limbs in a vain attempt to link Obama with ANYTHING shady. I'm sure it played well with the conservative base, just as choosing Palin did, but he did almost nothing to attract undecided voters.

   McCain tried valiantly to distance himself from the Bush years, but he has too much baggage with Bush's name still clearly visable on it. (I wanted to hear Obama say, "Gosh John, it looks like we are BOTH running against the Bush legacy, but I think I'm doing more credible job of it!")

...so...barring some very strange event, I feel like Barack Obama has a pretty good advantage now....and as I said before, I don't envy him for what he's getting into.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: SINSULL
Date: 16 Oct 08 - 10:31 AM

The best of the three debates but not exactly riveting.

I nearly fell on the floor laughing when I heard that Palin is a role model for all American women.

Betcha she's not.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Bill D
Date: 16 Oct 08 - 10:34 AM

Oh,,right! Those "45 new nuclear plants".... There are VERY good reasons why no new nuclear plants have been built for years.

It takes a LOT of money to build one, and years to do so.
Sites are VERY hard to find, and many communities fight them. (NIMBY)
They require a lot of maintenance and training of staff.
The details and plans for storing of nuclear waste is NOT a settled matter.
They are serious targets for would-be terrorists.
They require a bureaucracy and an inspection program that is hard to impliment.

and....

Three Mile Island & Chernobyl

this is not to say that 'some' nuclear plants could not be built on a case-by-case analysis in the future, but 45 NOW is crazy.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: irishenglish
Date: 16 Oct 08 - 10:35 AM

Some observations-true McCain did come out stronger, this clearly was his best debate, but the grimacing and facial expressions won't do him any favors. Obama definitely played it safe, staying on message, and I thought his best line of the night was when he said he could deal with hurt feelings between the two of them but what was more important were the issues. I know its a tactic, but it worked, people seeing that would think-damn, I can say anything to this guy and he's not going to take it personally.

Also, as SRS pointed out, Sarah Palin only has as much experience with special needs children as her child has been on this earth, which is not very long, so McCain's comments were a little off.
Obama's 100% negative ads was wrong, but I find it funny that McCain equates negative ads as being both policy dispute AND personal attacks. So are we now to believe that every ad for either candidate is a negative ad if the opponent is mentioned? I heard sappy violins when McCain claimed he was deeply hurt by John Lewis' comments.

Did anyone else catch McCain's repeating "climate change" a moment or two after Bob Schaeffer told them what they would be talking about? Also, it was kind of a trailing off statement, but in the abortion discussion, McCain said, he would not use litmus tests, but he did not think such a judge existed that could be fair and impartial who supported Roe v Wade. I didn't hear any pundits mention that one, but that is a huge statement to make. No litmus tests, but clearly if you support Roe v Wade, you cannot be a fair judge. Remarkable.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: CarolC
Date: 16 Oct 08 - 10:41 AM

When McCain said "climate change" he was correcting the moderator, who said, "climate control".

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Charley Noble
Date: 16 Oct 08 - 10:43 AM

McCain: "by building 45 new nuclear plants, power plants, right away."

The last nuclear power plant to be brought on line in the States, I believe, was the one in Seabrook, New Hampshire. The process took over 10 years, and one of the two proposed units was never completed. The cost over-runs were massive and the electricity generated is still the most expensive supply option in the New England grid.

Now, I expect such plants would be less expensive to capitalize if they were brought on-line "right away." In fact, why not contract with the Russians to build them and save even more money, or the North Koreans? Who gives a squat for public safety as long as we achieve "energy independence"?

Some (insert your favorite epithet) environmentalist shellbacks would argue that uranium mining and reprocessing uranium fuel generate a lot of green house gas and environmental radioactive waste, and that storage of high-level spent nuclear fuel and other low-level radioactive wastes raise further questions about the viability of the nuclear power option. And there will always be the risk of a catastrophic accident sometime, somewhere.

However, even Obama is willing to review the nuclear option, although he did not clarify that during the debate. I respect his intelligence but remain skeptical of this option.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Big Mick
Date: 16 Oct 08 - 10:49 AM

Same here, Mary m'luv. My daughter hollered from the other room, "She's not a role model for me!!!".

Despite all the posturing from the right wing pundits, this thing is over. The single biggest mistake made by this man was his selection of Palin, but it really didn't matter who he picked. The fruits of the seeds sown over 20 years ago, in grand karmic fashion, have borne fruit, but it is a bitter fruit indeed for the conservative crowd. They were always best when they operated from an honorable place of respectful opposition. When I first started out in the political scene, over 30 years ago, we had a common goal and approached it from different places. We didn't question honor, integrity, patriotism, or values anywhere near as much as is done today. Gingrich, and Reagan, changed that. They labeled us, they used wedge issues, and all this done to divert the attention of The Great Middle from the real agenda, which was to dismantle all the regulations, and agencies, that had evolved to protect the average person from the dangers of unbridled capitalism. I can remember having to lobby legislators hard to stop the other side from removing the enforcement of OSHA. I remember the failed attempts to make NAFTA a real plus for the North American (Canada, Mexico, USA) economies, and watched frustratedly as they simply turned it into another tool for US capitalists to take advantage of poor folks in emerging countries.

My Gran used to tell me that when a fast talker was trying to get you to look one place, look in the other. The US voters, or at least a large portion of them, seem to have finally figured that out, even if it took damn near destroying the economy to do it.

McCain belongs to a different era. His time has come and gone. And the proof will be on November 4. On November 5, I intend to wake up, gloat, spend a few days rubbing salt in the wounds of those that supported the opposition, ........ and then join in with President Obama and get about the people's business. We have an economy to rescue, we have relationships in the world to rebuild, and our actions affect the lives of many more in this world than just us. I believe this young man, Barack Obama, will be a transcendent political figure. I believe he will give all he has to restoring our country to its place as a respected member/partner/leader in the world community. And I believe he will lead a move to get us back on the track of progressive movement towards a better, more perfect (not perfect but more perfect), union.

All the best,

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Amos
Date: 16 Oct 08 - 10:55 AM

BEautifully put, you silver-tongued debbil, you.



A

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: irishenglish
Date: 16 Oct 08 - 10:55 AM

Thanks Carol, I apparently missed that one.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Charley Noble
Date: 16 Oct 08 - 11:00 AM

With regard to the plumber "Joe Wurzelbacher from the Toledo".

Is this an attempt by John McCain to recast his image once again, this time as "the plumber's helper"? If so, it's doomed to fail but it does evoke the awesome image of what his next big rally will look like as thousands, hundreds, and even dozens, of ardent supporters wave their plumber's helpers in the air.

Or is this attempt more of a subconsciousl reaction by McCain to where he feels his campaign is going, down the toilet!

I must view the Daily Show this evening and see if any of my quips are picked up!

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: SINSULL
Date: 16 Oct 08 - 11:04 AM

But guys we have safely run nuclear plants at sea for years.

Why did McCain stick out his tongue and grimace after the debate while he and his wife were standing on the stage?

Palin has cost McCain votes. Many of us who were wavering took it as an affront to our intelligence. Did he really think that she would get him the female vote? Reminds me of when bush chose Quayle and the rumor was that he resembled Redford so women would vote for him. It ended when Redford threatend a lawsuit, I believe.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 16 Oct 08 - 11:25 AM

Yes, McCain was correcting the moderator by saying "climate change" but he didn't score any genius points with it.

In fact, he reminded me of my grandma reading highway signs out loud after she became senile. Just a glimmer of awareness.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Amos
Date: 16 Oct 08 - 11:28 AM

"Plumber's Friend McCain"??? LOL! Ya know, he does fit the role rather well--he requires a lot of pull to get going, he needs to be handled continuously, he deals in sewage, and even when he's good he sucks.


A

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Charley Noble
Date: 16 Oct 08 - 12:06 PM

Amos-

And "Joe" may even inspire a new campaign ditty:

McCain is the plumber's friend!
With friends like him where will it end?
Will his campaign end with a bang or an epithet,
Or just swirl and gurgle down the toilet?

Cheerily,
Charley Ignoble

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Azizi
Date: 16 Oct 08 - 12:07 PM

Turns out that Joe the Plumber may indeed be registered to vote in Ohio:

"Questions were being raised Thursday morning whether Mr. Wurzelbacher is a registered voter.

Linda Howe, executive director of the Lucas County Board of Elections, said a Samuel Joseph Worzelbacher, whose address and age match Joe the Plumber's, registered in Lucas County on Sept. 10, 1992. He voted in his first primary on March 4, 2008, registering as a Republican.

Ms. Howe said that the name may be misspelled in the database"

http://www.toledoblade.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20081016/NEWS09/810160418/-1/NEWS



-snip-

That article didn't address all those other rumors about Joe The Plumber's family ties such as his possible relationship with Robert Worselbacher who was involved in the Keating 5 scandal.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Azizi
Date: 16 Oct 08 - 12:12 PM

Correction-

..."Robert Wurzelbacher who was involved in the Keating 5 scandal".

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Charley Noble
Date: 16 Oct 08 - 12:12 PM

Azizi-

"Say it isn't so, Joe!"

My suggested title for a new thread if the rumors of a connection between Samuel Joseph Worzelbacher, the plumber, and Charles Keating are confirmed.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Charley Noble
Date: 16 Oct 08 - 12:13 PM

"Robert Wurzelbacher"

400!

CN

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: frogprince
Date: 16 Oct 08 - 12:26 PM

One more vote for McCain's best moment, "you're not running against George Bush." But his statement on woman's health and abortions was apalling. To paraphrase: "Health of the mother, bullshit! You liberals just want any possible excuse to kill babies!".
As it happens, this is the first time I have actually sat watching McCain in person for anything like this much time. His facial expressions, much of the time, looked like something a very twisted person would subconciously carve on jack-o-lanterns.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 16 Oct 08 - 12:34 PM

hell, if Joe as a working plumber has saved enough over fifteen years to consider buying a business that nets a quarter-million annually, he should vbe in out Treasury DEpartment. We need folks like that.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 16 Oct 08 - 01:34 PM

Dick Greenhaus said,

hell, if Joe as a working plumber has saved enough over fifteen years to consider buying a business that nets a quarter-million annually, he should be in out Treasury Department. We need folks like that.

Nice thought, Dick, and clever, but on thinking it over, we don't know what he's been doing in plumbing. He may have been a highly-paid manager in a big plumbing company, now looking to buy his boss out. He may have inherited a pile of money, so he has a big down payment. He may have a sweetheart deal with the preexisting owner which allows him to pay off most of the "time payment" out of the profits over a period of years, which is not too unusual. That sort of thing can be very attractive to a seller of a business, for tax reasons.

But it's clear that Joe Plumber doesn't illustrate or establish the point McCain wanted to use him for.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Oct 08 - 02:11 PM

What McCain actually said there was "health for the mother. You know, that's been stretched by the pro-abortion movement in America to mean almost anything." (See Transcript of Third Debate.)

Which isn't actually the same as "Health of the mother, bullshit! You liberals just want any possible excuse to kill babies!". Paraphrases have to be a bit closer to the original than that.

I know that in the UK the health ground for abortion, which was introduced on a general understanding it meant cases where there was grave risk to the life of the mother, has in practice been interpreted far more widely.

Though I'd be inclined to see McCain's priorities here as more founded on a wish to appease his electoral base rather than on any particular principal. I am sure he'd have no difficulty at all in arguing in the opposite direction if it was required.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Amos
Date: 16 Oct 08 - 02:13 PM

The real Joe the Plumber hopes top someday buy a business that will make 250K, but isn't anywhwere near it right now, and is not actually a licensed plumber OR registered to vote. Yet despite this, he wants to get his message out that in his mind, Obama's tax plan might someday hurt him. He sounds a bit unrealistic, and was certainly yet another bad choice for a cartoon icon by John McCain who seems to enjoy playing with symbokls instead of real polciies.


A

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Charley Noble
Date: 16 Oct 08 - 05:49 PM

Here's the first two paragraphs about "Joe" from the Washington Post report above:

Joe the Plumber is not exactly a plumber, he's "not even close" to making the kind of money that would result in higher taxes from Democrat Barack Obama's proposals and has such an aversion to taxes that a lien was filed against him by the state of Ohio.

Such is the whirlwind of information that has come out about Joe Wurzelbacher of Holland, Ohio, since Republican John McCain made him famous in last night's debate. McCain mentioned him more than 20 times to use him as a symbol of hard-working Americans who would be hurt by Obama's tax policies. Obama and Wurzelbacher met earlier in the week in Toledo, where Wurzelbacher said Obama's plans to raise taxes on those making $250,000 a year or more would penalize him in his plans to buy the plumbing business for which he works.

Interesting! May not be worth a song.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: CarolC
Date: 16 Oct 08 - 06:01 PM

Seems like he's exactly the sort of person who will benefit from Obama's tax plan. And more than likely, he'll benefit substantially more from Obama's plan than from McCain's plan.

In fact, he's exactly the sort of person Obama was telling him about... the people who are making less money now, who will save more on their taxes under the Obama tax plan than under the McCain plan, and who will be able to buy the business sooner than they would be able to under the McCain tax plan.

LOL!

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: PoppaGator
Date: 16 Oct 08 - 06:02 PM

"What McCain actually said there was "health for the mother. You know, that's been stretched by the pro-abortion movement in America to mean almost anything." (See Transcript of Third Debate.)

Which isn't actually the same as "Health of the mother, bullshit! You liberals just want any possible excuse to kill babies!". Paraphrases have to be a bit closer to the original than that."

Kevin, what the transcript doesn't tell you, but we all saw on TV, was that McCain made the "air-quote" gesture while speaking the word "health" in a snide tone of voice, with a lift of the eyebrow and a pause before and after ~ the exact non-verbal equivalent of interjecting an expression like "bullshit."

Now, that extra sentence about "you liberals..." was, indeed, a bit of an exaggeration, but one that fairly accurately depicts McCain's tone.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 16 Oct 08 - 06:08 PM

The two items that McCain flippantly dismissed were "Health of the Mother" and "Safe Nuclear Waste Disposal". Both topic deserve more discusstion than that.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Bill D
Date: 16 Oct 08 - 06:36 PM

(it seems that Joe the plumber AND his boss both lack local licenses to practice plumbing...not relevant to the debate, but fascinating side issue.)

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: heric
Date: 16 Oct 08 - 06:43 PM

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/robert-j-elisberg/the-joe-the-plumber-story_b_135319.html

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Bill D
Date: 16 Oct 08 - 06:45 PM

and..oh my!


"... Joe Wurzelbacher is apparently related to Robert Wurzelbacher. Who is the son-in-law of (are you ready...?) Charles Keating!

Yes, that Charles Keating. The Charles Keating of the Keating 5 Scandal. For which John McCain was reprimanded by the United States Senate, for his involvement in attempting to illegally influence government regulators. The Charles Keating who John McCain has been trying to avoid have mentioned."

more...lots more..here

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Alice
Date: 16 Oct 08 - 06:49 PM

Joe Wurzelbacher, yet another person not completely vetted before bringing them into the McCain campaign. Sheesh, they really are not very good at taking care of the details.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 16 Oct 08 - 06:52 PM

I bet they've never heard of the game (or play) "Six Degrees of Separation."

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Bill D
Date: 16 Oct 08 - 07:01 PM

I see I was 2 minutes behind heric in noting that item. But I did make a blue clicky!

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: heric
Date: 16 Oct 08 - 07:08 PM

And a beautiful blue clicky it was, but this story is moving too fast:

"Andrew Sullivan has issued a correction on this story. There are TWO Charles M.Wurzelbachers -- Keatings' son-in-law was 37 in 1991, while the Ohio Charles is 83 years old."

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Azizi
Date: 16 Oct 08 - 07:19 PM

Another subject that McCain was dismissive about during last night's debate human rights violations that have led to the death of labor leaders in Columbia. That was the reason Obama gave for voting against that trade agreement with that Latin American nation.

McCain brushed off Obama's comments about the lack of basic worker protections in that nation and repeated his talking points about how much money US workers {or somebody in the USA} could have made had that agreement passed.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Alice
Date: 16 Oct 08 - 07:43 PM

You can search the Ohio Construction Industry licensing board online.
It comes up with the last name Wurzelbacher for only one person in Ohio, Lawrence Wurzelbacher. His license expired in 2002.
There is no Joe Wurzelbacher. Does anyone know if Joe goes by the name Lawrence?

Go to:
http://elicense1-lookup.com.ohio.gov/SearchCriteria.asp

You"ll need to enter:
Board: Ohio Construction Industry Licensing Board
Last Name: Wurzelbacher
State: Ohio

you don't have to fill in all the fields

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Alice
Date: 16 Oct 08 - 07:49 PM

geez, there is already a wikipedia page about Joe the Plumber!

'Wurzelbacher likened Obama to Sammy Davis, Jr. in an interview with Katie Couric of CBS Evening News immediately after the October 15, 2008 presidential debate. Of his encounter with Obama in Holland, Ohio, Wurzelbacher told Couric: "I asked the question but I still got a tap dance…almost as good as Sammy Davis, Jr."

yuk

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Alice
Date: 16 Oct 08 - 07:52 PM

From the Wikipedia page, this info reveals some things about Joe the plumber that may get him in some hot water ;-)

---------

"In his interview on ABC's Good Morning America on October 16, Wurzelbacher stated that his two current plumbing jobs were for a gas station and for a shopping center, Levis Commons. Both are commercial enterprises. [6]

This small firm is the business Wurzelbacher described to Obama as making more than $250,000 per year.[8] According to MSNBC, "While Wurzelbacher told Obama that he would be taxed at a higher rate because the company grossed more than $250,000 a year, Ohio business records show the company's estimated total annual revenue as only $100,000. Actual taxable income would be even less than that." [9]

The county Wurzelbacher and his employer live in, Lucas County, does require plumbers who perform work including sanitary drainage, water supply, storm drainage, and natural gas piping, to have licenses.[10] Neither Wurzelbacher nor his employer are licensed there, said Cheryl Schimming of Lucas County Building Regulations, which handles plumber licenses in parts of the county outside Toledo."

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 16 Oct 08 - 08:05 PM

""While Wurzelbacher told Obama that he would be taxed at a higher rate because the company grossed more than $250,000 a year, Ohio business records show the company's estimated total annual revenue as only $100,000. Actual taxable income would be even less than that."

You're damn straight it would be even less than that. Total revenues do not include wages, materials, office expenses, transportation, health care, or any of another dozen items. I strongly suspect that with a total gross revenue of $100,000 in the plumbing business you'd be lucky to take home a quarter of that.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Oct 08 - 08:06 PM

With a name like "Wurzelbacher" there could be quite a few ways of spelling it and misspelling it.

......................

The most alarming bit in the debate when McCain said that wanting nuclear power plants "to be safe" was an "extreme position". Wow!:

"We can eliminate our dependence on foreign oil by building 45 new nuclear plants, power plants, right away. We can store and we can reprocess.

Sen. Obama will tell you, in the -- as the extreme environmentalists do, it has to be safe."

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: TIA
Date: 16 Oct 08 - 08:09 PM

Okay, I smelled this rat in real time. I've been running a small business for 16 years. We celebrate when we break even at year end. A profit of $250,000 in one year would be unheard of in my business and all related businesses that I deal with. As we watched, I asked my wife and business partner why the hell we're doing this instead of plumbing!

BTW, I *am* the engine of job creation that McCain-Palin screech about, and I am damn sure not voting for them.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: CarolC
Date: 16 Oct 08 - 08:19 PM

We have a small (very small) business, and we will do very well under the Obama plan. Both as individuals, as well as business owners. Our business will not be taxed for capital gains (yay!) and we'll get a 50% tax credit to provide our employees (me and JtS) with health insurance. And we'll get a big tax cut on our personal income taxes.

Sounds good to me!

:-D

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Janie
Date: 16 Oct 08 - 09:30 PM

The debate swayed at least one undecided voter to Obama. Had a client who was undecided arrive a little late today because she went to vote early. The debate last night convinced her to vote for Obama.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 16 Oct 08 - 10:44 PM

It's quite fascinating to watch these bloggers working at lightning speed, beating out the more professional news orgs, and getting cited by the lesser news orgs with less exacting standards. They get the scoop, but then have to apologize and modify.

On one of skarpi's Iceland threads, Emma B tracked down what seemed to be the original source of blogged news that was inflaming the sentiments of Icelanders, such as an alleged mob attack on the Iceland embassy, while no one else could find any reference to it in google news sources.

One can imagine some harm resulting from a wave of emotion caused by temporary misinformation (although it would have to occur very quickly.)

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Ron Davies
Date: 17 Oct 08 - 12:08 AM

As Azizi 12:07 PM and Amos 2:13 PM (Trailhead link) note, Joe's name is Samuel J. Wurzelbacher, (obviously of German descent (Wurzel: root, Bach: brook).

Amos' link also points out that Joe is such a strong tax opponent he's already been in hot water with the state of Ohio--lien by Ohio against him for $1,182.98. I have a copy of the docket record by the Lucas County Court of Common Pleas, Toledo Ohio.

I wonder how closely McCain wants to be linked to such a tax protestor. Or maybe he's making a play for the Libertarian votes.

And as others have noted, Joe is not remotely close enough to $250,000/ yr. profit to be affected--especially since he's not even a registered plumber, nor does he have the money to be buying a company any time soon. And he himself has stated this.

He sounds more and more like a malcontent who thinks none too clearly. I wonder about the current status of Ohio's case against him. Has it been settled?

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Ron Davies
Date: 17 Oct 08 - 12:11 AM

Bloomberg says the tax lien--back taxes-- is still active.

Perhaps such a high profile was not the best idea for Joe.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Charley Noble
Date: 17 Oct 08 - 03:26 PM

I'm also sure that Samuel Joseph Wurzelbacher has some regrets about the media exposure but he's also taking advantage of it by appearing on morning talk shows at the national level.

You reap what you sow!

Charley Noble