BS: Bury the Hatchet

Subject: RE: BS: Bury the Hatchet
From: Cluin
Date: 28 Oct 08 - 01:23 PM

"Eyes like two pissholes in the snow" is another one I've never understood either, though it's been used to describe me upon occasion.

Subject: RE: BS: Bury the Hatchet
From: Gurney
Date: 27 Oct 08 - 11:32 PM

Richard Bridge, Google 'Hobson's Choice.'
I was wrong in saying he was an innkeeper, though. He was a carrier and he hired out horses.

Subject: RE: BS: Bury the Hatchet
From: Eric the Viking
Date: 27 Oct 08 - 05:58 PM

Had a mate who would describe people with a hangover as having "eyes like battling dogs bollocks". Can't think what he meant!

Subject: RE: BS: Bury the Hatchet
From: Cluin
Date: 27 Oct 08 - 05:19 PM

Keep your powder dry, Neil.

Subject: RE: BS: Bury the Hatchet
From: GUEST,Neil D
Date: 27 Oct 08 - 02:49 PM

Here are two the date to the days of the flintlock musket:
Flash in the pan-Using bad or not enough gunpowder would make a flash in the pan but not fire the musketball.
Going off halfcocked-the hammer on flintlocks had a half cocked and full cocked position. If you forgot to go from half to full cocked before pulling the trigger you would get a weak combustion that would only fire the ball a few feet.

Subject: RE: BS: Bury the Hatchet
From: meself
Date: 27 Oct 08 - 02:44 PM

Feel free to enlighten us ...

Subject: RE: BS: Bury the Hatchet
From: Donuel
Date: 27 Oct 08 - 02:12 PM

A true feminist knows about the rule of thumb.

Subject: RE: BS: Bury the Hatchet
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 27 Oct 08 - 02:05 PM

All excellent finds. The 1692 quote still seems to be the earliest for 'rule of thumb', but I wouldn't be surprised at even earlier use.

Many years ago my grandfather was an occasional submitter of quotes to the OED (amateur historian and newspaper editor). Don't know how their updates are handled now.

Subject: RE: BS: Bury the Hatchet
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 27 Oct 08 - 08:11 AM

Methodist Review. New York: J. Soule and T. Mason, 1819, vol. II, page 350:

From this will, or resolve, it would appear that their bible was to be their only rule and guide in faith and practice; but it was, in fact, turning every one foot-loose, as every individual had an equal right to put his own construction, in order to answer his own purposes, on every question, as to doctrine or government.

Subject: RE: BS: Bury the Hatchet
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 27 Oct 08 - 07:28 AM

I think this may be the original rule of thumb:

Swift, Jonathan. Travels into Several Remote Nations of the World ... by Lemuel Gulliver. London: Benjamin Motte, 1726, page 108:

The Sempstresses [of Lilliput] took my Measure as I lay on the ground, one standing at my Neck, and another at my Mid-Leg, with a strong Cord extended, that each held by the end, while the third measured the length of the Cord with a Rule of an Inch long. Then they measured my right Thumb, and desired no more; for by a mathematical Computation, that twice round the Thumb is once round the Wrist, and so on to the Neck and the Waist, and by the help of my old Shirt, which I displayed on the Ground before them for a Pattern, they fitted me exactly. [boldface added]

Subject: RE: BS: Bury the Hatchet
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 27 Oct 08 - 06:53 AM

It's fun to use Google Book Search to find old phrases like this. I suppose there's a chance you might find instances of use that are even older than those listed in the OED.

Bossu, M. Travels Through That Part of North America Formerly Called Louisiana. Translated from the French by John Reinhold Forster. London: Printed for T. Davies, 1771, page 237f:

A cacique lately returned from New Orleans freely owned to me, that he had a great mind to break their [i.e. English] heads for killing the French in the north, that is, during the siege of Quebec, and that he was tempted to take his revenge upon those that were at New Orleans. He added, that in his country they spoke to their enemies with the club in their hands, as soon as the hatchet is dug up; a phrase which denotes, that nobody ought to have any commerce or correspondence with the enemy, directly or indirectly, under any pretence whatsoever, after war is declared, unless he will prove a traitor to his country, and be punished accordingly.

When peace is concluded they bury the hatchet or the club under ground, signifying thereby that all their hatred towards their enemies is buried in oblivion, that the horrors of war are at an end, and that friendship and good understanding are growing again between them and their friends, like the white flowers of their tree of peace, (which is the white laurel), that ought to spread its branches over the white ground; which is a metaphorical expression which means the ground of peace.

Subject: RE: BS: Bury the Hatchet
From: Cluin
Date: 26 Oct 08 - 10:35 PM

"bitter end"... that's what the lion did when she got too close.

Subject: RE: BS: Bury the Hatchet
From: ard mhacha
Date: 26 Oct 08 - 05:21 PM

Den thanks for starting this Thread, is maith sin, smashing, yes, many people in Ireland agree with that, both words sound exactly the same.

Subject: RE: BS: Bury the Hatchet
From: meself
Date: 26 Oct 08 - 03:43 PM

The "bitter end" can refer to the end of the rope on board the ship. Don't know if that is its origin or not, but it is a usage.

Subject: RE: BS: Bury the Hatchet
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 26 Oct 08 - 02:53 PM

Urban myths, modern sailors myths; little difference. These from the OED.

Footloose first appeared in print in 1873; J. H. Beedle, "Undeveloped West," "All my friends who were 'foot-loose' had the Arizona fever."

Dressing down first appeared with regard to the army. To castigate, by words or blows. 1769, "10th Rep. Hist. MS Comm.," "For this he got a very severe dressing down..."

Bitter end origin is uncertain, the first quote known is from 1849, "Congress. Globe," ".....voted for the gentleman from Indiana, even to the bitter end." Some similar quotes refer to suffering.
Etc.

On the other hand, the reference to skyscraper is correct.

Subject: RE: BS: Bury the Hatchet
From: Dead Horse
Date: 26 Oct 08 - 01:53 PM

Here are some nautical expressions explained.

Subject: RE: BS: Bury the Hatchet
From: Cluin
Date: 25 Oct 08 - 08:10 PM

I don't know how that last post ended up in this, the wrong thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Bury the Hatchet
From: Cluin
Date: 25 Oct 08 - 07:02 PM

Good thing I set the PVR.

Subject: RE: BS: Bury the Hatchet
From: Cluin
Date: 25 Oct 08 - 05:40 PM

"Toe the line" is corruption of "Toe the Lion", a cruel practice used in old Roman times in the Colliseum.

The middle 2 toes of the rear paws of captive lions used in the games were removed. This helped control the giant felines, making it impossible for the lions to get purchase to leap out of the ring and into the stands to menace the spectators. Such an occurance might have caused a bit of unpopularity of the then-current Caesar and so all lions were "toed" before being set loose in the arena.

Since so many urban myths are being propogated here, I thought I'd start one of my own.

Subject: RE: BS: Bury the Hatchet
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 25 Oct 08 - 02:57 PM

'Toe the line' may have a nautical origin.

Earliest quote in the OED from Maryat, a marine novelist, 1833- "He desired us to toe a line..."
R. H. Dana, 1840, "Two Years Before the Mast" - "The chief mate...marked a line on the deck, brought the two boys up to it, making them 'toe the mark'."
Westm. Gaz., 1895, The phrase 'Toeing the Line' is very much in favour with some Liberals..."
1853- 'Toeing the scratch' for business.

Subject: RE: BS: Bury the Hatchet
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 25 Oct 08 - 02:54 AM

I was under the impression that 'toe the line' came from the British Parliament, where there are two lines drawn on the floor of the House of Commons main chamber, in front of each 'front bench' - the first row of seats where the Prime Minister, leader of the Opposition and deputies sit, opposing parties facing each other. The line is a few feet in front of each row of seats and the space between is just over a drawn swords' length on each side. Crossing the line was a distinct threat in the days when all men carried swords, daggers and multi-purpose knives, and to 'toe the line' was to go no further forward than your toes on the drawn line. It was supposed to reduce the possibility of blood shed and the Speaker could order anyone who overstepped the mark (there's another one) to back up and 'toe the line'. It means to stay in your place and abide by the rules and wasn't anything to do with nautical practices.

But I may be wrong.

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: Bury the Hatchet
From: Cluin
Date: 25 Oct 08 - 01:02 AM

And exactly what easy procedure, aside from a quickie wedding, would make Bob suddenly avuncular?

Subject: RE: BS: Bury the Hatchet
From: Cluin
Date: 24 Oct 08 - 05:06 PM

That fallacy was somebody's "axe to grind".

Subject: RE: BS: Bury the Hatchet
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 24 Oct 08 - 05:03 PM

I'm pretty sure it means not taking exact measurements with a yardstick, but making a rough guess with your thumb.

To those who insist that it has to do with wife-beating, please find me the law....

Subject: RE: BS: Bury the Hatchet
From: Cluin
Date: 24 Oct 08 - 04:52 PM

Reminding the kids to "Shut the door! Were you born in a barn?"

My girlfriend's mother says "The saying is "Were you born on a barge?'"

But then, she's from Nova Scotia.

Subject: RE: BS: Bury the Hatchet
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 24 Oct 08 - 02:53 PM

'Block and block' was the original seaman's term (1627, Capt. John Smith). Also in Falconer, 18th c., etc. 'Chock-a-block' appeared in Dana, "Two Years Before the Mast," 1842; uncertain when the change took place.
(OED).

Chock-full (choke-full) appeared in the 15th c., seemingly first applied to drunks.

'Rule of thumb' is a tough one. Perhaps from the measure, the breadth of the thumb, inch-measure; 1611- Cotgrave's Dictionary; but this does not lead to the first known use.
The OED gives it a separate citation, first in print by W. Hope, "Fencing Master," 1692, "What he doth, he doth by rule of thumb, and not by Art."
Kelly, 1721, "Scot. Prov.," "No rule so good as Rule of Thumb, if it hit."
In 1785, Grose in his Dictionary of Vulgar..., "to do a thing by dint of practice."
Later quotes include prescribing drug amounts by rule of thumb, etc.
It has nothing to do with any U. S. law.

Subject: RE: BS: Bury the Hatchet
From: Donuel
Date: 24 Oct 08 - 11:24 AM

rule of thumb


the US law that said you could not beat your wife with any stikk bigger than the diameter of your thumb.

Subject: RE: BS: Bury the Hatchet
From: Zen
Date: 24 Oct 08 - 10:50 AM

"Dim as a Toc H lamp": (UK) meaning unintelligent, not very bright.

From the small-wicked, weak light lamp used at the "ceremony of light" Toc H (a UK Christian charity of WW1 armed forces origin)

Zen

Subject: RE: BS: Bury the Hatchet
From: Den
Date: 24 Oct 08 - 10:39 AM

I've heard that the chiefly English expression "smashing" meaning excellent or very good is derived from the gaelic "is maith sin". Anyone know any more about this. It sounds plausible.

Subject: RE: BS: Bury the Hatchet
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 24 Oct 08 - 07:03 AM

"I will have no truck with him..." Come from the nailmaking trade in the UK Midlands, and more specifically from the practice in the 18th-19th centuries(called "truck" at the time) of the middleman (aka "fogger") forcing the nailers to buy their vittles from his store. It's the same idea as the "company store" referred to in "Sixteen Tons". Anyway, truck was eventually outlawed, but the expression remained.

One of my favourites is a contemporary expression, coined (I believe) by the Scottish comedian Billy Connolly: "As welcome as a fart in a spacesuit".

Subject: RE: BS: Bury the Hatchet
From: GUEST,The black belt caterpillar wrestler
Date: 24 Oct 08 - 06:02 AM

I really must remember to shout "Chock a block" at the end of a shanty some day.

Subject: RE: BS: Bury the Hatchet
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Oct 08 - 05:47 AM

Some of nautical origin
clean bill of health, toe the line, 3 sheets to the wind, by and large, tide over, copper bottomed, in the offing, hand over fist,
bitter end, taken aback, chock a block,.....

Subject: RE: BS: Bury the Hatchet
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 24 Oct 08 - 04:45 AM

I still use these:....

Shakin' like a dog shittin' carpet tacks.

Tight as a bull's ass during fly season.

Is a frog's ass water tight?   (When answering with an obvious 'yes')

Subject: RE: BS: Bury the Hatchet
From: Cluin
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 11:52 PM

Hornier'n a ten-peckered owl.


(Why the owl is figured to be so randy anyway, I have no idea.)

Subject: RE: BS: Bury the Hatchet
From: Cluin
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 11:51 PM

Gotta piss like a racehorse.

Subject: RE: BS: Bury the Hatchet
From: kendall
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 07:45 PM

Grinning like a dog eating bumblebees

Subject: RE: BS: Bury the Hatchet
From: katlaughing
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 07:37 PM

Yorkshire Yankee quoted Sourdough about "posh" in this thread. Thanks, sandra!

HERE is one of the first of the "colloquialisms" threads. Lots of fun!

Subject: RE: BS: Bury the Hatchet
From: Sandra in Sydney
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 07:20 PM

One way to find an old post is a Google Site search -

paste "posh" site:mudcat.org into Google & you get this!

then you just have to look thru 976 posts & hope that it was harvested by Google.

sandra

Subject: RE: BS: Bury the Hatchet
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 04:48 PM

Volgadon is correct about 'posh', which was adopted into English before 1830, money (Appears in Old Bailey proceedings). It soon was applied to anything sumptuous, lush or 'classy'- typical reverse or inflation slang.
One of the quotations in the OED:

1846, From "Swell's Night Guide," "As I used to doss there sometimes, her nibs got sweet on me, and in course we did our reg'lars, and the dossing mongary, lush and posh."

This has been gone over before, with references, but it's impossible to run down these old postings.

Subject: RE: BS: Bury the Hatchet
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 04:29 PM

At least two wrong. Rule of thumb is the longstanding carpenter's approximation that the top joint of a man's thumb is about an inch long.

Hobson only had one horse. You could have the horse - or not have the horse.

Subject: RE: BS: Bury the Hatchet
From: Gurney
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 04:20 PM

Hobsons's Choice. I understand Hobson was an innkeeper who hired horses, stricly in rotation. You couldn't pick the mount you wanted, you had to take Hobson's choice.

Subject: RE: BS: Bury the Hatchet
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 04:18 PM

Many of these idioms difficult to tie down.

Bury the hatchet- 1807, Dictionary of American English, Craigie and Hulburt. "I had long been persecuted by the General, but wished to bury the hatchet."
Assumed to relate to native American use as posted above, but uncertain.

Close but no cigar- 1935, the film Annie Oakley. "Close, Colonel, but no cigar."
Relationship to old slot machines doubtful. Cigars often given as a last (booby) prize.
Booby prize- first use??

Booby hatch- A jail (1859) or an insane asylum (1896)

Till the last cat is hung- 1854, G. G. Foster, "When he leaves the rotunda, which will not be "till the last cat is hung." Probably earlier.

Higher than a cat's back- F. Hunt, 1940, Trail from Texas, referring to 1870's; "The river's higher 'n a cat's back an' still risin;?"
Probably older than that date.

On the cat- roaming or staying away from home. Black English; 1965 (1953?) first dated reference. Both Brown.

In a cat's ass- No indeed. Prob. WW2; 1968, Camerer, "Dammed Wear Wings."

One a cat couldn't scratch- A firm erection. 1968, Crawford in Gresham's War. Also Westheimer 1968 in Young Sentry. Prob. WW2.

The above from Lighter, Historical Dictionary of American Slang.

Subject: RE: BS: Bury the Hatchet
From: ClaireBear
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 03:56 PM

"At sixes and sevens" always makes me think in terms of really complicated Eastern European time signatures, although in reality I believe the expression has nothing to do with music.

Subject: RE: BS: Bury the Hatchet
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 03:56 PM

The wife-beating origin of rule of thumb is false.
I live in the Middle East and have studied the history in-depth, never heard of cats being fed tongues of liars.
Posh is NOT Port Out, Starboard Home, but derives from the Romany word for money- posheen.
I don't see why burying the hatchet has anything to do with Native American peace traditions. It is probably as simple as it sounds. Let's put away our weapons and be friends.

Subject: RE: BS: Bury the Hatchet
From: bankley
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 03:55 PM

'crazy as a shit house rat' .....    kind of self-explanatory

'tighter than a camel's arse in a sandstorm'         ditto

'dark as the inside of a cow with it's arse shut and eyes closed'       ditto

Subject: RE: BS: Bury the Hatchet
From: Wesley S
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 03:47 PM

POSH = Port Out, Starboard Home. Which is supposed to be the best cabin on a cruise ship.

Subject: RE: BS: Bury the Hatchet
From: gnu
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 03:37 PM

You can, but thay also have this "murder" thing.

Subject: RE: BS: Bury the Hatchet
From: Wesley S
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 03:34 PM

I've always heard that "rule of thumb" refered to an English law that said you couldn't beat your wife with a stick that was thicker than your thumb.

Subject: RE: BS: Bury the Hatchet
From: gnu
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 03:24 PM

Yes! I recall a frazzled individual entangled amongst the many horns of a large, monster-looking "dilemma".

Subject: RE: BS: Bury the Hatchet
From: ClaireBear
Date: 23 Oct 08 - 02:50 PM

Do you remomber Mad Magazine's "Horrifying Cliches"? These were illustrated idioms. I don't think there was actually a "Burying the hatchet," but "Burying a grudge" was definitely represented. (The grudge was a large, sloth-like monster, as I recall, and the burial took place at night in a graveyard).

The most memorable frame from that feature was a picture of a man opening his front door, to find outside a wooden crate, between whose slats were visible an assemblage of skinng little peculiar mosters with large, gaping mouths. It was titled "Getting a case of the screaming meemies."

I'd never heard that expression previously, but it became a favorite that day.

Claire