BS: Hamas steals from UN

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas steals from UN
From: Teribus
Date: 08 Feb 09 - 05:31 AM

"While we're on to anecdotes about bad behavior:
Last year (The Sunday Times), in one of its many incursions into Gaza the Israeli army took over a Palestinian house as a lookout post.
The three soldiers billeted there were treated with extreme courtesy, given drinks, food and blankets by the Palestinian occupants (more or less the same hospitality I have always found when visiting an Arab country), and in return for that hospitality the soldiers shat in every cooking utensil in the house.
None of which addresses the fact that the Israelis are illegal invaders." - Jim Carroll.

Now last year would make that 2008, were there many incursions into Gaza?? An area that the Israelis completely withdrew from in 2005, three years previously.

What Jim has stated above is in all probability what he says it is - an anecdote - I don't think for one second that it actually happened, and if anyone doubts that I'd advise them to put themselves in the shoes of those commanding those troops who planned the operation and in the shoes of the soldiers themselves. If you do that here are the holes in the "story".

1. "the Israeli army took over a Palestinian house as a lookout post."

If they did indeed to that they would first have ensured that the house was comletely empty and secure. They are troops engaged in combat operations - they are not tourists checking into a B&B.

2. "The three soldiers billeted there were treated with extreme courtesy, given drinks, food and blankets by the Palestinian occupants (more or less the same hospitality I have always found when visiting an Arab country),"

OK from those commanding the operations point of view. Would you send your troops into a potentially hostile environment without rations, without shelter, without bedding - Of course you bloody well wouldn't

Now from the soldiers point of view. If you had been sent into Gaza on an armed incursion would you accept such hospitality from people who are your declared enemies - Again of course you bloody well wouldn't.

Complete and utter fairystory.

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas steals from UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Feb 09 - 06:19 AM

I can see I'll have to stop reading the Times and take up The Sun
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas steals from UN
From: Teribus
Date: 08 Feb 09 - 07:22 AM

Read what ever you want, it wouldn't matter a damn if you take it at face value. Me, I certainly do not believe everything I read in the newspapers. Your "anecdote", with the "The Sunday Times" thrown in to lend weight to it I suppose just does not stand up to critical examination.

Here is another part of it that doesn't ring true, from it's opening lines:

".....the Israeli army took over a Palestinian house as a lookout post.
The three soldiers billeted there....."

So, without any doubt, the best trained and most effective army in the middle-east sets up a "look-out" post in a house occupied by a Palestinian family and mans it with three men??

Does that sound either a sensible or a prudent thing to do to anybody, it most certainly doesn't to me.

Three men could not maintain an effective look-out even if they were in an empty house, as a bare minimum you would need at least double that number. But Jim's correspondent to the Sunday Times has added the complication of a group of civilians, a Palestinian family (numbers unspecified) who can only be viewed by the soldiers as being potentially hostile and there are only three soldiers who have to "look-out" and also keep a wary eye on their hosts.

The hosts supposedly brought them food and drink and the soldiers supposedly "shat" in every cooking utensil. You tell me Jim when you feed guests in your house do you normally drag out all your cooking utensils for your guests to eat out of?? I know I don't, cups, plates, glasses, serving bowls possibly, but pots, pans - Ehm No.

A "Fairy-tale" Jim.

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas steals from UN
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Feb 09 - 08:16 AM

You only have to think what happens to Israeli soldiers who fall in to Palestinian hands.
Years later, their families do not know even if they are still alive.
The last ones returned had been dead a very long time.
Such an operation would be unthinkable.

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas steals from UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Feb 09 - 12:14 PM

More time now,
"A "Fairy-tale" Jim."
All these stories need to be taken in context of general events, including ones which appear in 'The Jerusalem Post' about Hamas policemen raiding a UN warehouse.
The one I cited came in a long article in the Sunday Times colour supplement dealing with the treatment of residents at the hands of the invaders; it was one of about a dozen such incidents described.
It came around the same time as the incident of the Palestinian classical musician strip-searched at a check-point then forced to play for a group of jeering soldiers 'to prove he was a musician' - not a major incident, but for me chillingly reminiscent of the Jewish musicians such as Fania Fénlon, who were forced to entertain the officers at the death camps at night, and play for the victims as they were prepared for the ovens by day 'to calm them'.
The checkpoint incident would not even have made the news if it had not been filmed on a tourist's mobile phone.
Some time earlier there was the case of the child shot while running across a courtyard. The soldier who did the shooting then stepped up to the body and poured half a dozen more bullets into the body. That one made most of the nationals and the TV news and, to date, the perpetrator remains unpunished.
Occasionally, they overstep the mark, like the sniper who targeted a news cameraman because he was filming something he shouldn't - again unpunished.
"An area that the Israelis completely withdrew from in 2005,"
It must have been the wind that bulldozed the hundreds of Palestinian homes because they were potentially dangerous to the occupying army!!! (also widely reported)
A friend of mine attended the International Ballad Conference in Jerusalem and witnessed "From the time we arrived at the airport" the systematic humiliation of the Palestinians by the occupying forces. A few years later his wife said nothing had altered when she went on a Holy Lands holiday.
As I said earlier, these 'anecdotes' serve only to underline that there is little to distinguish the behaviour of these people from that of the Nazi 'Master Race' six decades before.
The main issue remains that Israel is illegally occupying Palestine and is driving the legitimate citizens out - go check the maps.
Keith,
Are you putting this forward as a legitimate reason to massacre a civilian population and use chemical weapons - so there is no case against the Nazis at Lidice then?
Jim Carroll
PS Terabus; I see you've dropped the 'Jim The Brit' and 'Jim Lad' - you got the help I advised after all - well done.

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas steals from UN
From: Teribus
Date: 09 Feb 09 - 04:56 AM

All the "war" stories you can muster, can no doubt be countered by similar tales from the "other" side and both can be painted as black as the earl of hell's waistcoat - all of which means nothing and solves nothing.

What remains are historically proven facts in deed and in example.

The primary one is that Israel won it's right to exist and was officially recognised in May 1948 - it is not going to go away and as the Jews of Palestine were denied a "homeland" within a Palestinian State they created a nation, specifically a Jewish nation where all are welcome to live but in so doing accept that Israel is a Jewish State and always will be.

Whereas the Israelis are prepared to negotiate for peace the Arabs of Palestine are not that has been proven time, after time, after time.

If anyone wants peace then the solution is simple - stop attacking Israel and stop killing Israeli citizens.

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas steals from UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Feb 09 - 07:01 AM

As I said - look at he maps and see how defence has become occupation - as it did in Germany - Imperialism will always be imperialism and fascism doesn't have a nation, German, Jewish or otherwise.
Then talk to the UN and tell them where they have gone wrong
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas steals from UN
From: Teribus
Date: 09 Feb 09 - 10:38 AM

I believe I posted the maps in one of the threads but here they are again:

This is what the Arabs were offered under the 1947 UN proposal. The Israelis accepted this and the Arabs rejected it

http://www.mideastweb.org/unpartition.htm

Here is what resulted from the Arab worlds concerted effort to drive the Jews into the sea - 1949 Armistace Lines:

http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_1948to1967_land_1948.php

Note there are no howls of outrage at the land "stolen" from the Palestinians by the Egyptians and the Jordanians - Why is that Jim??

The borders shown on this last map are the "Green Line" borders that the Palestinians are claiming now.

Now taking a look at those two maps I would venture the opinion that the Arabs of Palestine must have been complete and utter prats to turn down the UN's proposal back in 1947, because had they accepted they would have had:

1. More land than they are "fighting" for now.
2. There would have been no displaced persons therefore no "right of return" problem.
3. For the last 60 years both communities could have lived in peace and one hell of a lot of bloodshed would have been avoided.

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas steals from UN
From: beardedbruce
Date: 09 Feb 09 - 10:56 AM

http://www.unitedjerusalem.com/Graphics/Maps/PartitionforTransJordan.asp


The Arab Moslim Homeland was the 77% of the Mandate Palestine split off in 1923 as TransJordan. The REMAINDER was to be the Jewish Homeland: Any changes to the borders calls into question the legitimacy of Syria, Lebanon, Iraq, et all, all established by the 1921 treaty.

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas steals from UN
From: Stringsinger
Date: 09 Feb 09 - 12:56 PM

The Israeli government is not interested in negotiating peace in Gaza. Their premise is if they bomb the hell out of Hamas, the situation will be solved. This is genocide.

There are all kinds of disputes about historical land use. There were arbitrary partitioning schemes by various countries and a return to the 67 borders makes the most sense.

Hamas is being supported democratically by Palestinians in Gaza mainly because that was the organization who was helping the people. Someone's quote about how they are not doesn't establish any veracity here.

Once again, a lot of think-tank style barrage of information is being presented here which is doubtful and too cumbersome to consider a reasonable criticism to each point.

These are "factoids" that keep people from "looking behind the curtain".

Here's the problem. Both Israelis and Hamas are being recalcitrant and both feel justified in their continuation of violence. Until this realization is reached, no "factoid" is going to make a damn bit of difference.

Strngsngr

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas steals from UN
From: beardedbruce
Date: 09 Feb 09 - 01:00 PM

"a return to the 67 borders makes the most sense"


Why not the 1923 borders?

Why not the present borders?


67 only makes sense if you are trying to punish Israel for being attacked in 1967 and winning.

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas steals from UN
From: beardedbruce
Date: 09 Feb 09 - 03:05 PM

Hamas is not interested in negotiating peace with Israel. Their premise is if they kill enough Jews, the situation will be solved. This is genocide.

And I get this from the Hamas Charter, not my imagination.

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas steals from UN
From: Teribus
Date: 09 Feb 09 - 03:20 PM

"The Israeli government is not interested in negotiating peace in Gaza. Their premise is if they bomb the hell out of Hamas, the situation will be solved. This is genocide." - Stringsinger

No Frank its BS. Not interested in negotiating?? What did they do with Egypt?? What did they do with Jordan?? What was Camp David and the Oslo Accords about??

"Their premise is if they bomb the hell out of Hamas, the situation will be solved"

Small problem about that - If that is their premise and their solution why aren't they doing it?? I mean Hamas has given them all the reason they need, so why aren't they doing it?

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas steals from UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Feb 09 - 05:55 PM

Just watched the Panorama programme of your friends in Gaza.
The way they blew the heads off those little girls - magic!
And the phosphorus bombing of the hospital - sheer artistry!
And the three soldiers who took over the house and shat in every room - kitchen, bedroom, living room, children's room - what stars!
Unfortunately they also shat on the memory of the six million who died in the Holocaust.
Enjoy your friends - I'm off to find some human beings
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas steals from UN
From: Stringsinger
Date: 09 Feb 09 - 08:04 PM

Those that think that Israel is not bombing Hamas are living in an alternate universe.
Actually, Hamas has made some conditional peace overtures in spite of propaganda to the contrary.

Hamas is not a perfect solution for the Palestinians but it seems as though that's all they have right now. Why doesn't Israel get that?

The Palestinians in Gaza are extremely poor. Many live in hovels. Isn't it like the well-fed,
supercilious, pompous critics of Hamas to ignore this deplorable condition and blame the Palestinians?

Stringsinger

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas steals from UN
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Feb 09 - 08:05 PM

PS
"And the three soldiers who took over the house and shat in every room - kitchen, bedroom, living room, children's room - what stars!"
Forgot to say - they trashed everything in the house, so it really didn't matter.
The master race - really.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas steals from UN
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 09 Feb 09 - 08:16 PM

"The Palestinians in Gaza are extremely poor."

No argument there, but they've had seventy years to get un-poor. They chose another path, because the rest of the Arab world promised to put Humpty-Dumpty back together. They couldn't and they didn't, and they did nothing to ameliorate Palestinian problems, especially they did not offer assistance in setting up a Palestine State.

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas steals from UN
From: pdq
Date: 09 Feb 09 - 08:37 PM

The Arabs in Gaza have indeed had 70+ years to get un-poor.

One of the most reliable ways to stay poor (as a nation) is to have more kids than you can support.

Gazans had a birthrate near 10 live births per adult female. That was about 40 years ago.

Now it is "down" to 6 live births per female. Sill one of the highest birthrates in the world.

Imagine how prosperous these people would be if they:
         1. still had 200 thousand population, not 1.5 million
         2. spent their time doing farming and manufacturing jobs   instead of whining about Isreal
         3. Had spent all of the untold billion that have been given them on infrastructure, education
             and positive persuits. Instead, they spent it (largely) on weapons and bombs.

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas steals from UN
From: robomatic
Date: 09 Feb 09 - 09:23 PM

I've heard the process of extremely large families in the region termed as "breeding cannon fodder." AKA facts on the ground.

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas steals from UN
From: Teribus
Date: 10 Feb 09 - 02:12 PM

"Those that think that Israel is not bombing Hamas are living in an alternate universe." - Stringsinger

Oh I don't think anyone is trying to say that the IDF are not bombing Hamas Frank, because they are, every chance that they can get and they've been rather good at it considering that those Hamas targets deliberately hide amongst the Palestinian population of the Gaza Strip.

But what the frothing chattering left here on this site are proclaiming to the world and its dog is that the Israelis are bombing the "Palestinians" and are committing "Genocide". Which of course is complete and utter nonsense.

And before CarolC trots out her UN definition of "genocide" I will address the frothers and the chatterers to Rwanda, Kosovo and to Darfur all of which were and currently are serious instances of attempted "genocide" and "ethnic cleansing". What was it in Rwanda? 800,000 killed goodness knows how many hundreds of thousands displaced. Kosovo was more "ethnic cleansing" than "genocide" again hundreds of thousands dispossessed, raped and displaced. Darfur over 300,000 killed and 2.5 million displaced and guess what?? The Mudcat lefties have got absolutely SFA to say about it in terms of condemnation. But for some strange reason 1300 "Palestinians" being killed brings down the roof.

"Actually, Hamas has made some conditional peace overtures in spite of propaganda to the contrary." - Stringsinger

Really?? "conditional peace overtures"??? Care to define the Hamas version of "peace" Frank?. I've heard Hamas talk of temporary cease-fires and truces, I believe that the Arabs even have a special word for it. It describes a lull in armed conflict in which each side rearms prior to resumption of violence.

"Hamas is not a perfect solution for the Palestinians but it seems as though that's all they have right now. Why doesn't Israel get that?" - Stringsinger

"No Shit Sherlock" yelled the crowd!! "Not a perfect solution"!!! They are a complete and utter unmitigated disaster for the Palestinian people and have been for as long as they have been in existence. A good indication of which is that it is blatantly obvious to blindest man on the planet that Hamas could not give two bloody hoots for the Palestinians.

"The Palestinians in Gaza are extremely poor. Many live in hovels. Isn't it like the well-fed, supercilious, pompous critics of Hamas to ignore this deplorable condition and blame the Palestinians?" - Stringsinger

The Palestinians are extremely poor Frank because they have been successively ripped off by:

- The Egyptians in Gaza
- The Jordanians in the West Bank
- Their peerless leader Yasser Arafat
- Hamas, Fatah, Hezbollah and every other bloody Islamic Jihadi outfit that wants to set up shop and feed the "Palestinians" another truckload of Bullshit

But Frank those Palestinians in Gaza did elect Hamas did they not?? They must be collectively as thick as two short planks. The Palestinians have choices, if they chose the wrong course then that choice comes with consequences.

Stop attacking Israel and stop killing Israeli citizens and you have peace tomorrow.

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas steals from UN
From: Stringsinger
Date: 10 Feb 09 - 04:21 PM

You will not have peace tomorrow by just stopping rocket attacks on Israel. The Palestinians are second-class citizens in Israel's eyes, for one thing. Two, Israel does not recognize Palestinians as a group of people that require a homeland. They think of them as Jordanians.

I dispute a definition that Hamas view of peace is a temporary cessation of violence. Hamas is the Palestinian people. They want peace. They just don't know how to get it because
the US and Israel are not listening to their plight. US and Israel are busy condemning the Palestinians without considering their needs.

The Palestinians have been ripped off by Israel. They have their own propaganda when it comes to accepting a Palestinian state.

When you bomb a populace whose only recourse is to be driving into the sea, this is genocide.

Beneath the reasoning why Hamas was chosen was because the Palestinian people could not have their needs properly met through Arafat, Fatah or other political entities.
Hamas is not the best choice but the only one for them at present.

They did not choose poverty. This is the rationale used by those who are well-heeled
reactionaries to criticize those who don't have the same material advantages. In other words, it's the old tired bromide that "poor people make themselves poor."

There is no reason why Islamic countries should be the only source for help. The World Community needs to get involved. It's not just an issue for Islam but for world stability.

It has to be continuously said that at this point Hamas is the Palestinian people and they are disadvantaged and have their backs up against the wall.

The solution is not more bombing. The solution is to assess the needs of the Palestinian people and get beyond the vituperative condemnation by self-righteous partisans.
Israel and the US need to do this. Once these needs are met, then Hamas as a reactionary violent force will be replaced with a better one.

In the meantime, the idea that Palestinians don't want peace and justice is specious.

Stringsinger

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas steals from UN
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 10 Feb 09 - 06:32 PM

"In other words, it's the old tired bromide that "poor people make themselves poor.""
String, I'm not saying they made themselves poor, but they have kept themselves poor owing to the choices of those who were supposed to be leaders.

"There is no reason why Islamic countries should be the only source for help. The World Community needs to get involved. It's not just an issue for Islam but for world stability."
This is true, but if Arab/Islamic neighbors don't want to help now, as they never wanted to help in the past also (save to attack Israel and try to wrest the country from the Jewish 'oppressor'), perhaps that's a negative signal to the rest of the world.

Subject: RE: BS: Hamas steals from UN
From: Teribus
Date: 10 Feb 09 - 06:36 PM

You will not have peace tomorrow by just stopping rocket attacks on Israel."

Of course you will Stringsinger. The reasoning that leads to that?

-        How many rockets or mortars have been fired from the West Bank into Israel in the last month Frank?? The answer is none.
-        How many IDF incursions and air raids have been directed at targets within the West Bank in the last month Frank?? The answer is none.
-        How many rockets have Hezbollah fired into Israel from South Lebanon in the last month Frank?? The answer is none.
-        How many IDF incursions and air raids have been directed at targets inside South Lebanon Frank?? The answer is none.

See any pattern emerging there Frank??

"The Palestinians are second-class citizens in Israel's eyes, for one thing."

Your opinion Frank based on what??

"Israel does not recognize Palestinians as a group of people that require a homeland. They think of them as Jordanians."

Now please correct me if I am wrong here Frank, but this particular piece of history was rather well covered. In 1947 the United Nations proposed a two-state solution for the expiring Mandated Territory known as Palestine. It was to be divided into six "cantonments", three were to be Jewish and three were to be Arab. The Jews were going to call their state Israel. We don't know what the Arabs were going to call theirs because they rejected the proposal outright. Now what confuses me about your stated belief quoted above is this. If the Jews recognized and agreed with the UN that the Arabs of the former mandated territory known as Palestine required a separate state in 1947, why should they have changed their minds now??

"I dispute a definition that Hamas view of peace is a temporary cessation of violence."

Then I take it Frank that you have never read their founding Charter.

"Hamas is the Palestinian people. They want peace."

Far from it on both counts, both those are made lies by the very actions of Hamas. Oh by the bye if Hamas are indeed the Palestinian people then all the charges related to "collective punishment" go out the window.

"When you bomb a populace whose only recourse is to be driving into the sea, this is genocide."

Again something that we've heard before and it was well recorded. Only the first time round this is exactly what the Arabs of Palestine swore they were going to do to the Jews of Palestine, and the Arabs of Palestine got all their neighbouring Arab friends to lend a hand. This is still what Hamas's declared aim is, and they have never shown any sign of renouncing that much cherished ambition. So it is OK, as far as you are concerned, for Hamas to think this way, please explain to me why is it not considered reasonable for an Israeli to think exactly the same thing?? Which by the way they do not.

Care to tell us all exactly how much aid has been poured into supposedly "helping" the Palestinians Frank?? Do you know how many billions over the years Frank?? Where did it all go?? I'll tell you Frank, Yasser Arafat stole most of it to keep himself in power, then Hamas and Hezbollah jumped on the band wagon – That is what keeps the Palestinian people poor Frank nothing else.

"Once these needs are met, then Hamas as a reactionary violent force will be replaced with a better one."

And you have Hamas's agreement on this have you Frank??

"In the meantime, the idea that Palestinians don't want peace and justice is specious."

In the meantime Frank, truth is, Hamas gangs are wandering round Gaza killing anyone who even whispers anything about peace and justice. Because to do that in Gaza Frank, you could end up being cruxified for "weakening the spirit of the people".