BS: Chinese sweatshops/cost of your computer

Subject: BS: Chinese sweatshops/cost of your computer
From: Big Mick
Date: 28 Feb 09 - 06:06 PM

Seems a natural for discussion here. We all want to seem to be enlightened, so let us take a look at the cost of our ability to communicate cheaply:

NATIONAL LABOR COMMITTEE
New York, NY
Contact:   Barbara Briggs, 412-417-9384

Unprecedented View Inside the Prison-like Conditions at
High-Tech Sweatshop in China
Producing for HP, Dell, Lenovo, Microsoft and IBM

Today, the National Labor Committee (NLC) is releasing a 60-page report, High Tech Misery in China, documenting the grueling hours, low wages and draconian disciplinary measures at the Meitai factory in southern China. The 2,000 mostly-young women workers produce keyboards and other equipment for Hewlett-Packard, Dell, Lenovo, Microsoft and IBM. Along with worker interviews, photographs of primitive factory and dorm conditions and extensive internal company documents were smuggled out of the factory.

Full report:   http://www.nlcnet.org/article.php?id=613

        Workers sit on hard wooden stools as 500 computer keyboards an hour move down the assembly line, 12 hours a day, seven days a week, with just two days off a month. The workers have 1.1 seconds to snap on each key, an operation repeated 3,250 times an hour, 35,750 a day, 250,250 a week and over one million times a month. The pace is relentless.
        Workers are paid 1/50th of a cent for each operation they complete.
        Workers cannot talk, listen to music or even lift their heads to look around. They must periodically trim their nails, or be fined. Workers needing to use the bathroom must learn to hold it until there is a break. Security guards spy on the workers, who are prohibited from putting their hands in their pockets and are searched when they leave the factory.
        All overtime is mandatory and workers are at the factory up to 87 hours a week, while earning a take-home wage of just 41 cents an hour. Workers are being cheated of up to 19 percent of the wages due them.
        Ten to twelve workers share each overcrowded dorm room, sleeping on metal bunk beds and draping old sheets over their cubicles for privacy. Workers bathe using small plastic buckets and must walk down several flights of stairs to fetch hot water.
        Workers are locked in the factory compound four days a week and prohibited from even taking a walk.
        For breakfast the workers receive a thin rice gruel. On Fridays they receive a small chicken leg and foot to symbolize ¡§their improving life.¡¨
nbsp;       Workers are instructed to "love the company like your home",¨continuously striving for perfection¨ and to spy on and actively monitor each other¨
        China provides large subsidies to its exporters. In 2008, the U.S. trade deficit with China in advanced technology products is expected to reach $74 billion. There are 1.4 million electronic assembly jobs left in the U.S. paying $12.72 to $14.41 an hour which may be lost due to China's low wages and repression of worker rights.

One Metai worker summed up the general feeling in the factory: "I feel like I am serving a prison sentence...The factory is forever pressing down on our heads and will not tolerate even the tiniest mistake. When working, we work continuously. When we eat, we have to eat with lightning speed. The security guards are like policemen watching over prisoners. We're really livestock and shouldn't be called workers.¨

Charles Kernaghan, director of the NLC commented, "God help us if the labor-management relations being developed in China become the new low standard for the rest of the world. The $200 personal computer and $22.99 keyboard may seem like a great bargain. But they come at a terrible cost. The low wages and lack of worker rights protections in China are leading the race to the bottom in the global sweatshop economy, where there are no winners.¨

Subject: RE: BS: Chinese sweatshops/cost of your computer
From: bald headed step child
Date: 28 Feb 09 - 06:29 PM

And they say slavery is dead.

Thanks for posting that Mick.

BHSC

Subject: RE: BS: Chinese sweatshops/cost of your computer
From: Bat Goddess
Date: 28 Feb 09 - 07:04 PM

And the American companies who outsource the jobs to these manufactories are just as complicit.

If Americans don't have decent jobs, they can't purchase the products at all, despite any lower pricing. (And I'm sure most of the manufacturing savings goes to corporate profits, not reduced prices.)

Linn

Subject: RE: BS: Chinese sweatshops/cost of your computer
From: Big Mick
Date: 28 Feb 09 - 07:30 PM

I really would like the discussion to swing towards strategies and actions.

Waddya think?

Subject: RE: BS: Chinese sweatshops/cost of your computer
From: Bobert
Date: 28 Feb 09 - 07:34 PM

And, as you know well, its not just computers, Mick... Its just about everything that China makes...

When the rest of the world is pushed to pay their workers competetive wages the US economy will go back to being on top... No doubt...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Chinese sweatshops/cost of your computer
From: bald headed step child
Date: 28 Feb 09 - 07:52 PM

Since most of these shops are the result of US multi-national corps sending the work there for what amounts to slave labor, regulations need to be re-placed on them to discourage these practices.

Tarrifs based on worker compensation would be one place to start. These tarrifs would most certainly have to cover the corporations no matter what their home country is, and would need to be stiff enough to make it cheaper to pay a living wage than to just pay the fees, since the bottom line is what drives these people to do this in the first place.

BHSC

Subject: RE: BS: Chinese sweatshops/cost of your computer
From: GUEST,A Regular
Date: 28 Feb 09 - 09:02 PM

STOP buying products that are made in China. Period. Tell the owners of the store WHY you are stopping. And STOP!

Subject: RE: BS: Chinese sweatshops/cost of your computer
From: Bobert
Date: 28 Feb 09 - 09:30 PM

Well, it's not all that easy, Reg-ster.... One of the things that prolonged the Great Depression was protectionism...

Yeah, I understand that its difficult not to revert to that but it's less about not buying Chinese made goods than putting pressure on the Chinese to pay their workers a living wage... When that occurs then the US goods will become more attractive becuase they will be competitive...

Fine line to walk here...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Chinese sweatshops/cost of your computer
From: Big Mick
Date: 28 Feb 09 - 09:38 PM

I am not sure why a regular would feel the need to be anon on this.

Actually, bhsc is, I believe, on the right track. For years I have beat my head against the wall with trying to educate the public on the issue of Walmart and the product it gets from companies using essentially slave labor. In China there is evidence of prison labor being used. In parts of the Asian sub continent there is a ton of evidence for child labor and sweat shops. Even in the US we find this increasing. Our southern neighbors continue to have very weak worker protection. I believe that the draw of cheap prices is just too hard to overcome for average folks trying to feed and clothe their kids, to effectively get them to boycott those corporate entities that market to them. And I further believe that we cannot dictate to a sovereign nation what their laws have to be. But we can tie access to our markets to those labor standards and to environmental standards. For those countries that have rough parity in the key areas of workers rights, worker safety, and environmental compliance, we could have very few tariffs. In each of those areas, based on the laws of the land in those countries, we could enforce tariffs that would encourage them to compete on a fairer basis. I also believe that if said country is subsidizing their industry, that should be reflected as well. This would have the effect of levelling the playing field. Seems to me that this is what we need.

It is critical, in my opinion, for the Unions of the world to understand that this is not a national crisis. It is a world wide crisis. We (unions and their members) must cease to see ourselves as aligned with parties, and hold ourselves to rigid standards based on the values we hold dear. I am sick to death of getting a ton of attention during the election cycle, and once it is over, it's hard to get a call answered. Time for a much more radical, and independent, course of action.

All the best,

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Chinese sweatshops/cost of your computer
From: Big Mick
Date: 28 Feb 09 - 09:41 PM

Actually, Bob, it isn't protectionism that's bad. It's the wrong type of protectionism. Blanket protectionism of the Fortress America type just doesn't work. But the type I described above would absolutely have the desired effect. And the opposite, the wide open, laissez-faire, unfettered market only encourages the greed mongers who are willing to sacrifice workers, and the coming generations, for their own ends.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Chinese sweatshops/cost of your computer
From: Bill D
Date: 28 Feb 09 - 09:57 PM

What I think is that anyone who wishes to contract with a foreign country to produce their product(s) should be REQUIRED to obtain photos/video of the conditions in the factory and make these available to whatever agency is concerned with oversight.......and that updates to the data would be required every 2 years on a random date...unannounced.

Now, I suppose that this would need some tweaking as an idea, but basically I am asking for regular inspection and minimal standards.

Subject: RE: BS: Chinese sweatshops/cost of your computer
From: Big Mick
Date: 28 Feb 09 - 10:13 PM

I think that would be a component of what I am talking about, Bill. But it isn't good enough to just inspect the conditions of labor. It also has to include legislation that penalizes the things that we don't allow our employers to do. It is much more comprehensive than just inspecting for the conditions. It is providing disincentive for laws that don't protect the groundwater from dumping of chemicals, laws that don't protect against child labor, and laws that allow unsafe working conditions.

I have always said that our laws ought to be viewed as a reflection of our national sense of right and wrong, our national sense of morals, as it were. If we believe it is wrong to poison our groundwater, then it is wrong (according to our sense of national morality) for anyone to do it. It doesn't mean we don't trade with China. It does mean that as long as they choose to not have certain basic standards in a few critical areas, then they would pay a tariff based on that, that say, Canada would not. If Canada chooses to subsidize their lumber industry, and we do not, then they would pay a tariff based on that industry. But they would not on true free trade, and based on having laws that protect workers, make for safe workplaces, and good environmental standards. It could be done, and would encourage a truly competitive marketplace based on sound management practices, and not based on how many people they can cripple, how many kids they consign to a life of labor without education, or how badly they can screw up the environment.

We wouldn't be telling them how to run their country, as much as we are saying that we give a better deal to those that believe in the same types of things we do.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Chinese sweatshops/cost of your computer
From: Bill D
Date: 28 Feb 09 - 10:24 PM

It means all of those things, Mick. It is time that our products & their prices begin to reflect the true value of what it takes to produce them safely...both for people and for the environment.

Computer keys? Why not standardize them and hire folks HERE to recycle them and salvage usable keys? Maybe someone already is doing that.

Subject: RE: BS: Chinese sweatshops/cost of your computer
From: Alice
Date: 28 Feb 09 - 10:35 PM

Components for just about all the goods we buy in America are made in China or some other country, even if they are assembled here.
see this site:
http://www.made-in-china.com/quick-products/Mechanical-Components.html


The answer is to make working conditions an issue that our government must address in the arena of global trade contracts.

Subject: RE: BS: Chinese sweatshops/cost of your computer
From: Big Mick
Date: 28 Feb 09 - 10:39 PM

Yep, that is what I am saying, Alice. The person on the street, including many of us here, just have to shop price, despite our best intentions. The solution has to come in trade agreements, regulations, and as you point out, global trade contracts or compacts.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Chinese sweatshops/cost of your computer
From: Alice
Date: 28 Feb 09 - 10:42 PM

At the site I linked to, you can search on your brand of computer.
Just type in for example, Dell laptop, set search on "by Product" and category Computer Products. The search results will even show you what provinces are locations for producing the components.
The choice of categories to search are all the way from Agriculture to Security and Protection.

Subject: RE: BS: Chinese sweatshops/cost of your computer
From: Peace
Date: 28 Feb 09 - 10:45 PM

The whole world--well. lots of it--know that China's record on human rights is deplorable. Buying their products gives tacit approval that hey, we think saving a buck is more important than people. IMO.

PS I do not ever knowingly buy shit made in China. Period.

Subject: RE: BS: Chinese sweatshops/cost of your computer
From: Alice
Date: 28 Feb 09 - 10:48 PM

What is the responsibility of American companies and consumers for unsafe worki
94 article on the subject at that link

Subject: RE: BS: Chinese sweatshops/cost of your computer
From: Alice
Date: 28 Feb 09 - 11:01 PM

Bruce, if you buy anything at all, some of it has components made in China. It doesn't have to say Made in China if only parts are made there.

Subject: RE: BS: Chinese sweatshops/cost of your computer
From: Peace
Date: 28 Feb 09 - 11:04 PM

Yeah. I know. There is a line of frying pans out with an Italian name. Read the small print: Made in You Know Where.

Hell, I boycotted California grapes for a decade after the boycott finished. Then Chilean grapes. I LOVE grapes. C'est la vie.

Subject: RE: BS: Chinese sweatshops/cost of your computer
From: Alice
Date: 28 Feb 09 - 11:11 PM

There is a singer in Missoula named Zoe who wrote a song about how she was trying without success to buy a hammer made in the USA.
It used to be on the old music site mp3.com, but now I can't find her.
Maybe a youtube search is in order.

Subject: RE: BS: Chinese sweatshops/cost of your computer
From: bald headed step child
Date: 28 Feb 09 - 11:26 PM

Yeah, the buy American is a joke.It's not just at Walmart either. I've been trying to find some blue jeans made here and so far no luck. A search for any products made here has been relatively fruitless. Everything we used to make here has been shipped elsewhere.

I don't want to dis any of my Canadian brothers and sisters either. I haul freight both ways across the border, and understand how much trade means to both countries. I can't find many Canadian goods here either. Of course there is beer, which I do my best to consume as much as possible in my off time, but surely beer can't make up all the trade. Maybe a little pea meal bacon sometime? I can't find it here either.

The whole problem comes down to slave labor, and we not only have to stand up to these other countries, we have to stand up to the corporations who are behind it, and let them know in no uncertain terms, THIS IS NOT ACCEPTABLE.

BHSC

Subject: RE: BS: Chinese sweatshops/cost of your computer
From: GUEST,A Regular
Date: 28 Feb 09 - 11:31 PM

Check out Canadian Tire sometime. Hell, it's anything BUT Canadian. I hear you too, bhsc.

Subject: RE: BS: Chinese sweatshops/cost of your computer
From: Peace
Date: 28 Feb 09 - 11:35 PM

I posit that countries use 'mirror image' trade policies. That'd bring the field real level real fast.

Subject: RE: BS: Chinese sweatshops/cost of your computer
From: bald headed step child
Date: 28 Feb 09 - 11:39 PM

Alice, I haven't found that one yet, but I think James McMurtry was right on track with We can't make it here anymore .

The person who put the video together seems to have done a good job matching appropriate images.

The song has been a big hit for several years among truck drivers and other listeners of satelite radio, but I have never heard it on any commercial radio stations. Should be right up Mudcat alley.

BHSC

Subject: RE: BS: Chinese sweatshops/cost of your computer
From: Maryrrf
Date: 01 Mar 09 - 12:11 AM

And of course it isn't only China. Take a look at these pictures from cashew factories in India. It's both a humanitarian issue and a safety issue.

Subject: RE: BS: Chinese sweatshops/cost of your computer
From: katlaughing
Date: 01 Mar 09 - 01:03 AM

I agree with most of what has been said and perhaps this needs to be in an adjunct thread, but I can vouch for one company which makes all of their products in the USA: Deva Lifewear

It feels dirty to be typing on a Dell keyboard at the moment.

Subject: RE: BS: Chinese sweatshops/cost of your computer
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Mar 09 - 01:38 AM

The answer is conscious consumerism. Hopefully there are brands and makes of computer that don't have any parts made in China. If so, people should by them.

Ours are Apple, Sony, and Toshiba. Anyone know if any of their parts are made in China?

Of course, avoiding computers from China may not solve the whole problem entirely, since there may be similar sweatshop conditions at computer factories elsewhere in the world.

The other unfortunate aspect of this is that for many of those workers, they may be grateful even to have those sweatshop jobs, since the current economic crisis is putting a lot of people in China out of work.

Subject: RE: BS: Chinese sweatshops/cost of your computer
From: number 6
Date: 01 Mar 09 - 07:09 AM

Check the parts in you Japanese, Korean or even your American car .... you'd be surprised that many of the electrical componenets are made in China.

If you take a daily Vitamin C tablet ... guess where it's from ... yes China .... China now controls 90% of the world's market of vitamin C.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Chinese sweatshops/cost of your computer
From: number 6
Date: 01 Mar 09 - 07:30 AM

The shift towards China was a direct result of corporate $profit$ ... a strong bottom line thus sustaining a high share value .... the demand for this strong share value reflecting in attractive investment portfolios. IMHO is directly related to the large population of baby boomers edging towards retirement (early retirement tastes good to a lot of people) and wanting a healthy sustainable income for for that retirement .... what happened is the whole thing blewup in our faces ..... it's a case of us (I feel we are all guilty in some ways) wanting more and more, not just in the ways of having a high standard of living in our golden years, but also more in the ways of cheaper material goods.

How can we turn this around ... well, it's happening now ... the economy is falling into a bottomless abyss which will in turn force us to do with less and start becoming more localized in our economic demands ... the problem is, especially in the U.S. the country is so far in debt with China (and getting further in debt fast) it's just a phone call away from China literally owning a third world nation.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Chinese sweatshops/cost of your computer
From: Maryrrf
Date: 01 Mar 09 - 10:35 AM

The approach taken by Cashew Concern Certification, the company started by myself and my partner, is different. Cashews aren't produced in the United States anyway, so there could be no 'Buy American' (although if you buy Brazilian cashews most if not all of the factories there are clean, modern, and adhere to fair labor standards). Our idea is to inspect and certify those factories that do provide decent working conditions for their employees, as well as adhering to good manufacturing practices. There are some in India as well, mostly in the state of Kerala, where the local government has cracked down. Cashews inspected under the CCC system would be packed in sealed cartons and there is a tracking system so that they can be traced from processor to retail shelf. The can of cashews would also bear the seal so that consumers could know what they are purchasing. The cashew importers, and the retailers, don't want to pay the few cents extra that it would cost. In many cases, it would not cost that much extra to clean up those processing plants and make sure employees had a clean and safe working environment, got paid at least minimum wage, etc. We have e-mails from importers telling us that their aim is not to improve the industry, but to make a profit, and to make as much profit as possible. Only one small company,Feridies ,has supported us. But we're not giving up.

Perhaps such a system could work if we want to continue to trade with China. The factories where these products are made would have to be inspected and adhere to at least minimum standards. That would level the playing field somewhat. And American companies must be held responsible for where they source their products. It's no longer acceptable to feign ignorance - if they want to source from China, fine - but they'd better source from places that have been inspected (and the inspection certificates would have to be updated regularly.)

One more point - the relentless drive to lower prices and maximize profits is in part responsible for the shame of sweatshops, substandard products, etc. In the case of cashews, many buyers just put contracts up for bid, and the lowest priced supplier automatically gets the business. As the price gets driven lower and lower, it becomes more necessary to cut corners where quality and working conditions are concerned. When Brazil cleaned up its cashew industry 15 years ago, most of the cashew processing plants went out of business. They couldn't compete against India and Vietnam, who had the convenient cost savings of using child and prison labor. If we don't force importers and corporations to change their buying policies and make them accountable, the lowest common denominator will always walk away with the business, and we'll perpetrate these conditions.

Here's our blog The Responsible Source .

Subject: RE: BS: Chinese sweatshops/cost of your computer
From: bald headed step child
Date: 01 Mar 09 - 11:36 AM

Maryrrf,hang in there, progress will be slow but they will come around. I heard a story on Bob Edwards show a year or so ago, about the coffee industry, and some people doing the same type of thing. Sorry I don't have a link for it, but a search of his archives might turn it up.

Two of the big names involved are Starbucks and Seattles Best. At the time of the story anyway, they both were requiring that the coffee they purchased be produced under humane conditions, and the grower be paid enough to send his, and his workers children, to school. The economic impact in the regions where the coffee is produced is far greater than the impact here.

Coffee production is very labor intensive, and as a result, a lot of the big corps purchase from countries that do it cheaper. We have been led to believe, through advertising, that Columbia has the best coffee. That is far from true, they just have the cheapest coffee.

There are alternatives out there to many products, but we need more organisations willing to put pressure on these govts. Unfortunately, in some places, this can be a very dangerous proposition.

BHSC

PS. Carol, did you misspeak, or did you really mean to imply that slaves should be grateful to their masters for saving them from having to look for a job in tough economic times?

Subject: RE: BS: Chinese sweatshops/cost of your computer
From: wysiwyg
Date: 01 Mar 09 - 12:01 PM

At our home, we've been following a cable TV program, CHINA: Ascent of the Dragon. It's a great primer on the intersection of Chinese history and China, now. Segments have covered all aspects of Chinese life-- food production was one episode, the one-child policy was another, trade... medicine.... media.... changes in gummint structures/policies... technology... markets.... etc. Culture, history, current events-- all explored.

Some of the episodes are harder to follow if one has not started from the beginning of the series, but see one or two (even out of sequence), and a picture begins to form that is compelling in its complexity.

We started following it because what we were picking up from "daily" news sources was overwhelming. It seemed to me that we needed to know about all of it; the US/China relationship is just not one that can be properly understood in TV soundbites, Wiki's, or even good magazine coverage. As we began to take it all in, even guided by this program, frankly, it was staggering.


One thing that is clear is that, like the US, China is too big geographically (and too diverse culturally) to be referenced accurately by name only. It also seemed clear that name-only referents were being used propagandistically to fit the prevailing culture of fear that has been so powerful in recent years-- confirming the need to look deeper, slower, more awarely.


That said, it has long been my sense that a huge worldwide labor movement was going to need to be "prosecuted" (campaigned, fought, negotiated, diplomatically pursued, etc.) before class justice could ever occur. The development of outsourced economics has only borne this out.


Rectifying the continuing pattern of underclassed labor in the "global marketplace" will take not only traditional labor strategies, but also cultural and diplomatic work to support labor movements and to help create the conditions where change can occur. Some people will be involved in this with their "fighting" gifts. Some will be involved with their "loving" gifts. Some will use academic gifts. Some efforts will occur politically and some will occur through other channels.


A promising area I am just now learning about has become somewhat professionalized since the kind of community work I've done in the past-- it didn't have a name then, but nowadays the umbrella term is "Track II Diplomacy." Just as no one in my youth could ever have accused me of being "clergy spouse" material, LOL, people who know me well have trouble putting my name in a paragraph about diplomacy. :~) But it's the best description I have ever seen for what I DO when I'm not opining at Mudcat to try to think out loud about things I'm doing IRL.

Track II diplomacy is for EVERYONE, because what it amounts to is a cultural movement by smallfry which can move large movements forward by dint of relationships with individuals involved in the peripheries or in a Track I ("official" diplomacy) effort.

Track II explains how strong, interpersonal relationships can spark powerful nudges toward change, because in the crucible of friendship one can find oneself motivated to question in one's own heart what one has been doing or allowing or, even, profiting from.


There is so often an argument, in any conflict, between potential allies, partners, players-- "MY way is the ONLY way this can change, help ME do MY plan!" "No! MY way, can't you SEE? I need YOU!"


The reality is that there need be no conflict between "players" if they understand that their best help will come not from other existing players, but from EACH player building an effort embodied by a new, not-already-involved cadre of new "activists." That's usually hard to remember to do-- to reach for strangers instead of trying to change people we already know. It's hard, too, to choose to always, always, always be developing new leaders as they come into the effort so that they, too, can reach beyond the known pool of activists to find even more of them.

Cesar Chavez was a GREAT practitioner of an approach that is always spreading the acreage where the grass roots are spreading naturally. There are other examples, other models. But our human urgency to MAKE change happen NOW sometimes clouds our minds so that we do not act as powerfully as we might.... we run without sleep or food, we take the shortcuts instead of laying the groundwork, we get pulled into whatever feels most urgent instead of strategizing more broadly...



So I recommend that people really take the time to learn about China, think about it smartly, think about what existing relationships might give you a place to start supporting change that, IMO,is inevitable. We can help it move more smoothly and quickly, or we can slow it down.

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: Chinese sweatshops/cost of your computer
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 01 Mar 09 - 12:11 PM

But if the roles were reversed, do you think the Chinese would care? Of course they wouldn't so........

Subject: RE: BS: Chinese sweatshops/cost of your computer
From: bald headed step child
Date: 01 Mar 09 - 12:31 PM

Susan, you are right. Education is always the best first step. That's what is so baffling about the heat Obama is taking for investing in education. A little learning goes a long way.

Bonzo, the Chinese govt may not care any more than our govt seems to care quite often.

I think the average Chinese person has the same capacity for caring as anyone else. China has given the world many great things in the past, and will continue to do so. The chinese people, in general, are not the problem, it is the relative few with all the power taking advantage of the masses, just as they do here.

If caring is based on whether everyone else cares, it will not happen. That is just more of the same old, if I do this for you, what are you going to do for me mentality that allows this type of tyranny to occur.

People are people everywhere, and given a fair chance, they are all capable of great things.

BHSC

Subject: RE: BS: Chinese sweatshops/cost of your computer
From: wysiwyg
Date: 01 Mar 09 - 02:06 PM

BHSC, it's been especially interesting to hear how Confucian values still permeate Chinese society now, but also how everyone watching China's rapid cultural re-development NOW is concerned about how the one-child policy may very quickly change that. However, human is human is human, and I too believe that the capacity and desire for good is hard-wired in us all.

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: Chinese sweatshops/cost of your computer
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 01 Mar 09 - 02:49 PM

In the U. S. back in the early 20th c. when American manufactures were taking their place in the world market, there were sweatshops galore, horrible ghetto living conditions, no concern for workers, widespread ignorance.

China is not that many years from a peasant economy and the mistakes of Mao's successors, it has expanded to become the world's No. 1 manufacturer and its society is changing rapidly as a middle class grows.
The same is true in India, South Korea, Vietnam, Malaysia and other industrializing nations.

These new dragons in the world will evolve, probably more rapidly than the U. S. did, making many of the same mistakes on the way.

Refusing to buy their products only slows their modernization and cultural evolution; calls to boycott their products show ignorance of history and cultural evolution, and serve only to slow their progress in a rapidly changing world.

If the U. S. cannot change to succeed in a globalizing world, it will be a loser. Many of the posters here are calling for stagnation although they don't realize it.
The first lesson to be learned by the U. S. is that it cannot dominate the world. It may try to be a model of western culture, but it cannot force the rest of the world to fit its mold.

Subject: RE: BS: Chinese sweatshops/cost of your computer
From: Greg F.
Date: 01 Mar 09 - 02:57 PM

That's what is so baffling about the heat Obama is taking for investing in education.

Not baffling at all. Gotta keep 'em stupid: if U.S. voters were educated and were adept at critical thinking, there'd be no Republicans in office.

Subject: RE: BS: Chinese sweatshops/cost of your computer
From: Big Mick
Date: 01 Mar 09 - 03:15 PM

You are out of your mind, Q. What a load of crap. Your view of changing to fit a globalizing world is to step back from 150 years of enlightenment with regard to the rights of workers. You view any attempt to hold onto the standards of income, safety, environmental responsibity, as stagnation. While I don't know you personally, I will say that your attitude is the enemy. It is not necessary to rebuild the wheel everytime someone steps up to modernize. Appropriate foreign policy, coupled with import laws (our marketplace is still a major bit of leverage) that encourage appropriate behaviour in the world is the answer. As noted above, the Chinese are still very much a Confucian based society. One must not yell or be strident, but rather create a circumstance where it is pragmatic to change. As long as apologists continue to make it pragmatic for them to ignore laws in these areas and thus maximize profit, they will. It it your attitude that is the problem, and by the way, outdated. We do not have to apologize for our standards of living, pensions, standards of healthcare, and workplace conditions. These are not dirty words.

Some times it is hard not to be disgusted.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Chinese sweatshops/cost of your computer
From: Maryrrf
Date: 01 Mar 09 - 03:44 PM

I heartily agree with Mick. We've spoken with overseas suppliers about our certification system. Their attitude: if it gets us business we'll do it. In other words, if American businesses refuse to buy from substandard facilities and insist on verifying that the factories concerned are adhering to good manufacturing practices and fair labor standards, they'll adapt. As long as we reward those who produce goods at the lowest possible price by running a sweatshop and ignoring health and safety issues, they'll continue to do it.

Subject: RE: BS: Chinese sweatshops/cost of your computer
From: number 6
Date: 01 Mar 09 - 03:53 PM

"As long as we reward those who produce goods at the lowest possible price by running a sweatshop and ignoring health and safety issues, they'll continue to do it."

So true Maryrrf !

And therein lies the root of the problem .... the bottom line of the corporate financial statement

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Chinese sweatshops/cost of your computer
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 01 Mar 09 - 04:00 PM

I am all for development in the third world, but it should be done for the betterment, not the exploitation of its people. Wages should reflect the value of the goods produced, and the health and safety of the workers should be much more important than any production quotas. People who exploit young children in sweat shops should spend an eternity in Hell sitting close to the furnace. The natural resources of these countries should belong to and be developed for the people, rather than to boost some corporate bottom line.
Corporate greed, sadly rules the world. It has built a global economy that now lies beyond the control of any government. It has created a monster that somehow must be tamed, but I probably will never live to see it happen.
A few years ago a big (brand name) sneaker manufacturer moved it's production from the USA to China. It then used sweat shops paying workers pennies a day to crank out it's product. It then paid some over the hill athlete, a basketball player I believe, a million dollars to stamp his name on them. The inequity of this was a disgrace but the product sold well and the company flourished.
In civilized countries trade unions play a large part in raising the living standards of the workers, but in the third world union leaders and organizers are often imprisoned and sometimes shot. Corrupt governments are more thean willing to turn a blind eye for a corporate bribe. Governments in the illustrious G8 only pay lip service to human rights violations, and collectively kiss the international corporate arses!

Subject: RE: BS: Chinese sweatshops/cost of your computer
From: number 6
Date: 01 Mar 09 - 04:07 PM

Corporations are run by CEO's ... it is the CEO's job to ensure the corporation can gain the highest yield in profits and stock values for it's share holders ... if he does so, he/she will be rewarded very highly ... a lotta $momey$ ... many, many CEO's will have their eyes turned the other way (forgo all human values, to the point of criminal acts) to ensure the greed is satisfied ... we have all this seen lately in the news .... unforunately.

Micrsoft and Google have adhered to the Chinese government's demands in regards their draconian secrecy/censorship laws.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Chinese sweatshops/cost of your computer
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 01 Mar 09 - 05:00 PM

Trouble is... if we all boycott Chinese goods, then the workers in that country will get laid off, and be in an even worse state. When your basic economy is still at peasant level, one step up from bartering chickens, then any job is better than no job, surely?

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: Chinese sweatshops/cost of your computer
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 01 Mar 09 - 05:14 PM

Big Mick- a voice from the almost forgotten times of Joe Hill. And from the times in the States and the western world that the new powers in the East are passing through now.

(Japan not included, they are at the same stage as the U. S.)

Subject: RE: BS: Chinese sweatshops/cost of your computer
From: Peace
Date: 01 Mar 09 - 05:31 PM

And we damned well need that voice back.

Subject: RE: BS: Chinese sweatshops/cost of your computer
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 01 Mar 09 - 07:49 PM

Well the world will perhaps not find another oppertunity as good as last summer when it could have stood behind Tibet over China with the Olympics being the trump card. That hand was badly misplayed! Of course the games were big money so nobody wanted to shake the tree.
And how in Hell could the world ever forget this?
   China's Great Shame

Subject: RE: BS: Chinese sweatshops/cost of your computer
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 01 Mar 09 - 08:43 PM

Didn't some students get shot at a demonstration in Ohio a few years back. "And how in Hell could the world ever forget this?"

Tibet will be integrated into China. Perhaps Tibetans will obtain a measure of home rule if they cooperate.
The U. S. has added territory that they considered important by means of war, (the southwestern U. S., Puerto Rico, various Pacific islands), by deposing the lawful government (Hawaii), etc.

Subject: RE: BS: Chinese sweatshops/cost of your computer
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 01 Mar 09 - 09:26 PM

Q, I certainly agree with you that Kent State should not be forgotten either but I fail to see your point unless it is just a red herring that you throw out. History is full of dispicable injustices and if we don't learn empathy from them they will be repeated time and again.
("Perhaps Tibetans will obtain a measure of home rule if they cooperate") This is like saying that if you kiss a bully's arse he may not hit you so hard!

Subject: RE: BS: Chinese sweatshops/cost of your computer
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 01 Mar 09 - 10:33 PM

The Hawaiians have learned how, why not the Tibetans? Time, the (almost) healer. We have split the Samoans, and taught those from our part American Football. Better money than fishing or raising taro (may a Samoan friend forgive me for facetiousness).

"repeated time and again": History tells us that is normal.

Subject: RE: BS: Chinese sweatshops/cost of your computer
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Mar 09 - 02:27 AM

I didn't misspeak. And I don't believe that slaves should be grateful for anything. But people will submit to a lot when starvation is the alternative. Look at our own migrant workers here in the US for an example of the kinds of slave worker conditions people voluntarily submit to in order to survive. It's a really difficult situation. Personally, I think that if enough people practice conscious consumerism, employers who treat their employees like slaves would go out of business. Eventually, we will get there, but it will take more time than we would like it to, for sure.

Unfortunately, during tough economic times like these, a lot of people will have to choose not to buy some things at all, like cashews, for instance, because the products that come from socially responsible sources are not affordable. I don't know whether or not that will make it more difficult for programs encouraging people to buy socially responsible products to succeed. In my case, I'm just going to have to stop buying cashews.

Subject: RE: BS: Chinese sweatshops/cost of your computer
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 02 Mar 09 - 03:09 AM

Does everyone in your particular country have a decent living wage, proper food and housing, access to free or low cost health care, basic human and workers rights with education for all? Until that happens, no-one can really throw stones at another country for its behaviour.

It is terrible that workers in China are treated as slave labour, but as pointed out twice now, a bad job is better than starvation. It is equally terrible that a percentage of people in one of the leading countries of the so-called 'civilised' Western World cannot afford proper health care, or are being laid off just so others can have their bonuses.

Ending Slavery in the Western half of this world didn't come overnight, some might say it still hasn't ended, just the that origin of the 'slaves' is different. It will take a long time and we will have to make adjustments to our own lifestyles to make it happen... but the cynic in me just can't see that happening unilaterally.

In the meantime, to salve our own consciences, we can try to avoid buying goods we know have been produced or assembled in China (although this will prove difficult), we can buy locally sourced food that we can track the provenance on (many supermarkets in the UK name the district and some even the farm), we can grow more of our own, we can - in the words of Christian Aid one year - live simply so that others can simply live.

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: Chinese sweatshops/cost of your computer
From: bald headed step child
Date: 02 Mar 09 - 04:33 AM

Thank you Sandy for posting that video.

One of the most powerful images, that I don't think I'd seen before, is at 1:47 in the video.

The student with the words in English on his back.

I love life
I need food
but I'd rather
die without
Democracy

Sadly, we probably will never know if he lived or died, but the message comes through strong and clear.

The seeds have already been planted, and democracy most likely will rise in China. It won't happen overnight, but it will happen from within. This is how democracy spreads, not at the end of a gun barrel like Bush seems to think.

We can't give up on the fight here though, saying the fight is over there. The fight is right here, in the US and the UK, as the corporations that encourage these practices are based right here in our back yards.

That is the thing with global economics. What we do here can greatly affect what happens in the far corners of the world, after all it created the problem. It can also create the solution.

Democracy is not a spectator sport, it requires action. As we can see in the videos and stories of Tiananmen Square, many Chinese understand this, and the news reports are already coming in about planned events for the 20th annniversary this year. Maybe we should be planning to support them.

A lot of people seem to think the US gained it's independence on it's own, but we had a lot of help from other countries, most notably France, but others as well, including forces from within England. If China is to obtain freedom, it will require help from all of us.

BHSC

Subject: RE: BS: Chinese sweatshops/cost of your computer
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 02 Mar 09 - 06:39 AM

There are so many arguments that one could make for improving human rights in China that I fear the original point of this thread may be lost. Foreign goods are produced cheaper by exploiting the poverty and health of the workers. Domestic industries can not compete because laws of the land and strong unions will not allow sweat shops to operate in the manufacturing sector. (farm labour excluded) These same standards should be applied to imported goods to level the playing field but that does not happen, so jobs are being exported instead. It is a no win situation for all except the international corporations driven by bottom line profit and berift of conscience.

Subject: RE: BS: Chinese sweatshops/cost of your computer
From: wysiwyg
Date: 02 Mar 09 - 10:13 AM

If China is to obtain freedom, it will require help from all of us.

Friendly amendment:

If China is to obtain freedom, it will require respectful help from all of us, offered with a spirit of remembering at all times that Chinese culture and self-determination will look very different from our culture and structures.

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: Chinese sweatshops, alternative?
From: maire-aine
Date: 06 Mar 09 - 08:36 PM

Hi, guys. I'm late to the discussion, so please pardon me. Two comments/questions.

To bald headed step child, if you're still looking for jeans, you might try jeans website . I haven't purchased from them yet, but I had their website on file.

To all, I'd like to purchase a small TV. Do you know of anything (must be USA compatible) that's not made in southeast-Asia, but esp. China?

Maryanne

Subject: RE: BS: Chinese sweatshops/cost of your computer
From: Ebbie
Date: 07 Mar 09 - 01:28 PM

This country currently is in a weakened condition when it comes to pressuring for human rights but with the new administration maybe we can require unions - a real voice for workers - in EVERY factory and shop that exports to us?

If I went to work in a factory the first thing I'd do is join a union. Franklin D. Roosevelt

Here is a song Juneau's Buddy Tabor wrote some years ago. Still applicable.

Mr. Basketball Shoes

Buddy (Guy) Tabor


Mr. Basketball Shoes owns a factory in China and Viet Nam
where a 12-year-old girl works for nothing; he don't give a damn
Sixteen hours a day, seven days a week
and when they break her malnourished body, just throw her out in the street


If the workers try to unionize or tell them they protest
Basketball Shoes calls the military and they come out and make arrests
take the workers to the prisons and there they're left to rot
bad food and dirty water behind prison bars and lots

Chorus:
I said Justice is a wheel,
turns slow but it grinds fine
My mama said that wheel turns
full circle in due time

Mr. Basketball Shoes loves money, he'll do anything to succeed
He don't care about God or love or human decency
This man has no compassion, his heart is filled with greed
Ruled from a throne of darkness with dirty evil deeds

From the carpet mills of Pakistan and sweat shops of Mexico
This is the age of lawlessness, declare the CEOs
Republicans in Washington, they all love Basketball Shoes
Gives them campaign money, they'll turn their backs on what they do

Now I had myself a dream the night my poor old mother died
I saw that Wheel of Justice come falling from the sky
Oh, what a beautiful light; it made the darkness run
No more death, no more slavery or disease of organs

Subject: RE: BS: Chinese sweatshops/cost of your computer
From: robomatic
Date: 07 Mar 09 - 07:39 PM

I think Q had a point to make and was treated with ad hominem abuse, as if the real world conditions that Q was simply drawing to attention was what Q was advocating, which I don't think was the case. As a matter of fact many folks have advocated enlightened viewpoints which have ended up promoting, then defending absolute disaster.

Zimbabwe is an excellent example. Racism has been defended in the name of avoiding racism. And the people of Zimbabwe have not only starved, they are experiencing a totally unnecessary run of disease at the hands of a Hitlerite regime.

Similarly, the conditions in China may be as noted at the head of this thread, but China has come through a major shift in technology and modernization at a pace unrivalled in history by such a large population. China is also experiencing a surge of nationalism, and the entrenched power structure would likely be able to turn foreign sourced criticisms on their heads.

Not long ago it was cheap Japanese labor which was, so to speak, eating American labor's lunch. I worked at a place which the unions tried to organize, the owner called a plant meeting and declared that while he wanted to employ Americans, he could move his operations to Germany and find a value multiplier with labor over there. The union didn't win that vote. Since those times, and quite rapidly, Japanese labor has been supplanted by Singapore, Malaysia, Korea, and the march of factorization of inexpensive labor continues, and is also going to march upstream in class as more and more engineers are graduated in China, India, and the Mideast.

Q's point as I understand it is that if selective Chinese factories are targeted, the labor goes elsewhere, but the workers remain, instead of merely miserable, they will now be unemployed.

The development is inevitable until a balance is reached where there are no cheap alternatives to the employers of labor, sort of like what we perceive as happening to the sources of oil in the near future. The difference being that oil is a non-renewable resource, and population is not just renewable but growiing.

All one has to do is look at European history. The best thing that happened to labor in the middle ages was not organization. It was the plague.

I think the only effective solution within China itself will come from the Chinese. We've witnessed growing consciousness among the Chinese people of the abuses in their food processing system, and in their construction business. We've also seen that there is traction to be gained within the Chinese judiciary. Hence, if it is possible to encourage these developments, with advice and the benefits of experience, this is where our efforts and money should be directed. Furthermore, our consumer advocacy organizations, both official and NGO, should be primed to alert the media and the legal system (here and abroad) to target Western AND Chinese companies which seek to corrupt or pervert the ability of the people to redress their grievances through their own courts.

Subject: RE: BS: Chinese sweatshops/cost of your computer
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 07 Mar 09 - 09:07 PM

It's very difficult to pressure Chine when we owe them a trillion dollars or so. I suspect that the only thing that would have a prayer (aside from just waiting till things equalize globally) would be the Wobbly approach---one BIG international union.

Subject: RE: BS: Chinese sweatshops/cost of your computer
From: EBarnacle
Date: 08 Mar 09 - 06:01 PM

One of my hats is as a union rep. Another is as a capitalist.

I find myself in an odd place, in that the products which I wish to market are only available from China, Korea and India. The ones from India and Korea are FDA approved; the Indian factories are not. When we went to find out how much American made equipment would cost, it came to twice the amount [at retail] as the foreign made goods.

We have decided to make the larger, custom made units in the US and import the high volume units for household use. You do what you can.

Subject: RE: BS: Chinese sweatshops/cost of your computer
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 08 Mar 09 - 08:23 PM

Evolution in manufacture is inevitable; New products, new niches, will be found if the entrepreneural energy and expertise are there.

To take a minor example, England made fine clocks in quantity up to about 1850, then the cheaper Bohemian-German clocks took over, then the mass-produced American movements put them out of business. Now the Asian area makes most of the clocks (except for some high-end items, "custom-made," as EBarnacle puts it).

Stanfield in Canada made good underwear, but Asia could produce the same quality for less, so Stanfield must make its money as a retailer rather than a manufacturer.
The same happened to the American (and other) clothing industry, but specialty and high quality or high end fashion niches remained.

Good education is one of the bases for keeping up; American and Canadian education for the global world has been falling behind.

Subject: RE: BS: Chinese sweatshops/cost of your computer
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 09 Mar 09 - 11:00 AM

Seems quite simple to me.

Since WE can't influence the Chinese, or other similar governments, why don't we have a go at our own governments to double the tax on profits for our companies that outsource to dodgy regimes.

Kill their profits, and they won't deal with the bad guys till those bad guys fall into line, and THEY WIlL, given the overriding need to export their products.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Chinese sweatshops/cost of your computer
From: EBarnacle
Date: 09 Mar 09 - 01:58 PM

Don, you seem to forget that all the Chinese would have to do to throw any one of our protective tarrifs into the crapper is call in their bonds on our money. Then, we would find ourselves with no money and no manufacturing.

Subject: RE: BS: Chinese sweatshops/cost of your computer
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 09 Mar 09 - 02:52 PM

Protective tariffs only hurt the country that imposes them

Subject: RE: BS: Chinese sweatshops/cost of your computer
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 10 Mar 09 - 07:07 AM

HELLO!!!!...............WHAT MANUFACTURING?

Given that the part of our manufacturing base that isn't owned by American or German companies is rapidly evaporating in an Eastward direction, I don't think there's much left to lose, and when that's gone we'll have no money either.

So which is best?

Sit back and do nothing, and add moral bankruptcy to the other kind, or make SOME effort to at least achieve what little we may, and go down fighting??

Discuss.

Don T.