'Rare' Caribbean shanties of Hugill, etc

Subject: RE: 'Rare' Caribbean shanties of Hugill, etc
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 18 Jun 09 - 04:30 PM

Here's what I hear Forman singing in 1928:

                O-oh, I'm Billy in the alley!
                
        I lost my coat in Story's Alley.
                O-oh, I'm Billy in the alley!

        [I] put it in the [unintelligible: kelleekaim?] was my fancy.
                O-oh, I'm Billy in the alley!
        
        She put me out because I'd no money.
                O-oh, I'm Billy in the alley!

Story's Alley, it turns out, is in Leith, where Forman lived.

Subject: RE: 'Rare' Caribbean shanties of Hugill, etc
From: Snuffy
Date: 18 Jun 09 - 10:02 AM

Carpenter collected a couple of examples in 1929, but each source claims to have learned the song some 75 years earlier: i.e. in the early 1850s (which may possibly point to a minstrel origin).

First line - "I lost my jacket in the alley" from Edward Robinson, of Sunderland. Born 1834, to sea 1846. Carpenter's notes say Captain Page heard the chantey about 1853. (He collected from both Capt Mark Page and Capt Edward Robinson in the same retired sailor's home in Sunderland, which may explain the ambiguity of the note)

First Line - "O, I lost my coat in Story's Alley" from James Forman, of Leith, born 1844, first ship 1856. "Learned as a boy before going to sea" and a further note "Story's Alley in Leith".

I'm not at home at present, but at least one version (Forman?) is on Kennedy's selction of Carpenter recordings, and the chorus sounds very much like "I'm Billy in the army"

Subject: RE: 'Rare' Caribbean shanties of Hugill, etc
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 17 Jun 09 - 07:25 PM

I don't think I've logged this one in properly yet in this thread, so...

"Sister Susan" / "Shinbone Al"

Print:Hugill; Bullen; Harlow ("Gwine to Git a Home Bime By")
Performers: Theresa Tooley, Forebitter

Notes:

Discussed in this thread.. Summary and more, here.

Hugill learned it from "Harry Lauder" of St. Lucia.

In its "hauling" format (as Hugill has it), it actually has the form of ~three~ solo verses (each followed by a short refrain). Earlier in the SFSS, when discussing "John Kanaka," Hugill remarked that that song had this "not so common form." However, I have noted this is not so rare. "Mobile Bay," "Kanaka," "Essequibo River," "John Cherokee," and this one all share that feature.

Bullen first gives it in LOG OF A SEA-WAIF, 1899.    He observed a ship's cargo being discharged by stevedores in Demerara:

"Streaming with sweat, throwing their bodies about in sheer
wantonness of exuberant strength as they hoisted
the stuff out of the hold, they sometimes grew so
excited by the improvisations of the "chantey
man," who sat on the corner of the hatch solely
employed in leading the singing, that often, while
for a minute awaiting the next hoist, they would
fling themselves into fantastic contortions, keeping
time to the music. There was doubtless great
waste of energy; but there was no slackness of
work or need of a driver. Here is just one speci-
men of their songs; but no pen could do justice to the vigour, the intonation and the abandon of the
delivery thereof...."

He goes on to print one verse, with music. Bullen also gave the song in 1914's SONGS OF SEA LABOUR (*thanks to KathyW for the source).

Harlow also printed a version of this song, though under the title "Gwine to Get a Home Bime By." He called it a "'Badian hand-over-Hand" chantey, and it follows Bullen's version closely. Lighter (in the other thread) suggested he may possibly have lifted it from Bullen's text. Harlow's is different in having more verses and syncopation in some spots. There is enough difference I think to suggest that Harlow heard it first-hand, but it is also notable how similar the versions are.

So it has been ascribed to St. Lucia (in a way), Guyana, and Barbados. However, a minstrel song published in 1835 was called "Shinbone Alley" itself (in addition to others that might mention the place), and its first verse starts with the same structure as the chantey:

Old Miss Tuck and my aunt Sallie
Both lived down in Shinbone Alley

Forebitter recorded the song as "Gwine to Get a Home," circa 1991 (??). There's is based off of Harlow's text (a few small changes to the melody, some extra-syncopated bits, and a swing-feel read into it). I don't know on what basis they list it as a "windlass or pumping chantey" in their liner notes.   Interestingly, I suspect they had not referenced Hugill's version (filed under a different title) at the time of that recording, on the slimmest evidence -- the fact that they sing "by ME by" since Harlow spells it in dialect as "bime by" (it is clearly "by 'n' by," and Hugill's text would have made that obvious.)

Subject: RE: 'Rare' Caribbean shanties of Hugill, etc
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 17 Jun 09 - 06:18 PM

Ah, interesting, Jerry. I suspect part of that reason has to do with individual singers who have led the charge with certain songs, then maybe backing off. More interesting would be the phenomenon where those songs become played-out. Like I said about "Drunken Sailor" --people in such an "elite" gathering would GROAN if you raise that one (though "Roll the Old Chariot" is basically the same song, and it was raised several times). Probably tons of other reasons.

There's also the sort of "Black 'n' soulful" niche of songs which, for some people at least I'm sure, amount to a sort of code-shift. It's not too hard to trace the individuals who are especially responsible for popularizing these great songs. But most of them (of the ones I'm talking about) are more recent additions (eg.post-Mehaden fishermen phenom)...whereas there is a mine of songs once coded as "Black" in the "old" repertoire that have yet to be revived in such a manner. I dunno really though, just casual observations and guesses.

Incidentally, Dave Iler of the Seaport sang "Shallow Brown" (a fast version) towardsthe end of the Thurs concert. I liked it -- his voice and way of singing it-- a lot.

Thanks, Jerry, for the compliment; it really means a lot to me. I'm really interested in developing a sort of chantey singing that treats the "tradition" as a format or shell (for example, like "the Blues form") rather than the "tradition" as specific texts that just happened to have been collected, written down, and set. Of course, this only applies to a certain portion of the chantey repertoire, and my viewpoint is an eccentric one.

Gibb

Subject: RE: 'Rare' Caribbean shanties of Hugill, etc
From: JWB
Date: 16 Jun 09 - 10:43 PM

Gibb,

My old memory cells don't hold as much data as they used to, particularly after a couple tots of gin, so I can't recall everything I did hear at Mystic last weekend. It's actually easier to list what I *didn't* hear, these being what I think of a "Rare Caribbean" chanteys, based purely on my personal experience of how infrequently I hear them sung at various events. That list includes "Sailboat Malarky", "Essiquibo River" (which was very popular 10-15 years back), "Bound Down Trinidad", "Shallow Brown" (maybe I went to bed too early),and "Running Down to Cuba."

I would love to trace the popularity of certain chanteys in the revival, to discover why some catch on so quickly and widely and then fade out (e.g. Essiquibo River), or stay present in the popular repertory (e.g. John Cherokee). Another thread, p'raps.

You get the pub-sing laurel, though, Gibb, for the free-style "Hilo, Boys, Hilo". If Stan himself had been there he would have been impressed (though he might have opined that your voice wasn't "strident" enough for a true chanteyman, 2 octaves too high or not). You did a great job with that one.

Jerry

Subject: RE: 'Rare' Caribbean shanties of Hugill, etc
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 15 Jun 09 - 11:21 PM

oh, also someone did "Doodle Let Me Go"

Subject: RE: 'Rare' Caribbean shanties of Hugill, etc
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 15 Jun 09 - 11:01 PM

Just thinking about the Mystic fest and how this repertoire figured in (or didn't), to get a sense of its rarity/popularity.

I can remember hearing only:

--Some version of "Huckleberry Hunting"?? Not sure; it didnt have the "classic" "shantyman of the wildgoose nation" lines, and I was busy at the time jockeying for a space at the bar.

--"Bully in the Alley" -- of course, but in the faux-capstan version which repeats the first verse like a grand chorus.

--some sort of "Stormalong," but I forget which (probably one of the more common).

--Marc B's "John Come tell us". Heard it twice -- once in use as a hand over hand chantey. It's a bit different from Hugill's version. Notably, he doubles the "way hay" part, effectively creating 4 (rather than three) sets of solo-chorus. Also, the chorus sings along on the "way hey" part. This is like has been done to "John Cherokee."

--so..."John Cherokee". I was hiding, hoping this song wouldn't find me, but it did a few times. In one of the pub-sing performances, the leader tried desperately to maintain a 3-phrase format, but the mass audience kept adding a fourth. This meant that by the time they shut up, each time around, the leader had already finished most of his solo first line.
(*oops, never officially logged "John Cherokee" into this thread yet, but it is pretty well covered in the other current thread). The renditions were, of course, in the modern style. Jacek Sulanowski's rendition was particularly full of off-beats.

--It was a pleasure to hear Tim Reilly's "Haul Away, Boys, Haul Away" -- not yet discussed yet in this thread. That's one that Hugill recorded, but which differs significantly from his text version. Tim sang the recording style, but noted the discrepancy with the text.

--Was surprised, and yet not surprised, I didnt hear "John Kanaka." If "Drunken Sailor" is more or less considered to banal for any ears but lubbers', then I supposed "Kanaka" reached that level in the context of this community-- it's only for tourists and kids (?)

--my contribution was "Hilo, Boys, Hilo". I doubt anyone knew that chorus (Hugill's, via Tobago Smith). (It didnt help that I sang it about 2 octaves too high for a castratto)

--"Come down, Bunch of Roses" was of course done in the form of "Hang down, Blood Red Roses". But Rika (?) made up for it with her excellent clever parody. Incidentally, I just noticed that Stuart Frank once recored a version of "Blood Red Roses" that was sung at the Seaport in 1978. Sources for that, Stu?? :)

Please note any others you guys may have heard, people who were there.

Subject: RE: 'Rare' Caribbean shanties of Hugill, etc
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 09 Jun 09 - 07:04 PM

Here's the beginning of a list (not sorted in any way) of the chanteys so far that have been focused on in this discussion -- by way of taking stock. Hope no one really minds the excess verbiage; it helps me keep track.

Mudder Dinah/Sing Sally, O! (A + B)
Shinbone Al / Sister Susan / Gwine to git Home
Round the Corner Sally
Walkalong, Miss Susiana Brown
Coal Black Rose"
Come Down, You Bunch of Roses
Bully in the Alley
Lowlands Low ("Island Lass")
Miss Lucy Long
Stormalong, Lads, Stormy / Wo Stormalong
Mister Stormalong / Stormalong
Way Stormalong John
Stormy Along, John / Come Along, Git Along
Walk Me Along, Johnny / Walk Him Along John / General Taylor
Yankee John, Stormalong
Gimme de Banjo
The Gal with the Blue Dress
Johnny, Come Down the Backstay /John Dameray / John Damaray
Mobile Bay / John Come Tell Us as We Haul Away
Miss Lucy Loo
Tommy's On the Tops'l Yard
Hilo Johnny Brown / Stand to Your Ground
Hilo, Boys, Hilo
Tommy's Gone Away
Hello, Somebody
Huckleberry Hunting
Can't Ye Hilo
Hooker John
?JohnKanaka?

Subject: RE: 'Rare' Caribbean shanties of Hugill, etc
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 06 Jun 09 - 09:15 PM

Hawaiian songs about whaling exist in writings left by Hawaiian seamen, but no chanteys found so far. Some 5000 Hawaiian seamen are listed in port shipping records, 1842-1867 alone.
The newspapers of Hawai'i from 1834- may have poetry and songs, but they are only beginning to be digitized.

Kaulana ke anu i Alika,
Ka lalawe i ka ili a puni.
(Famous is the cold of the Arctic,
Overwhelming your entire body.)

The first account here has some interesting descriptions of the Inuit.
http://scholarspace.manoa.hawaii.edu/bitstream/10125/6778/1/JL40105.pdf

The following are the first few lines of a song by Ku, of O'ahu, a whaling song he wrote in the 19th c.

Makemake na Au e 'Ike ia Kaleponi

Makemake na au e 'ike ia Kaleponi
I ka 'aina o ka nani a me ka maika'i.
Maika'i 'oko'a no ke kai kuono o
Hukekona.
He nani Papine me Kaliona.
Ka home i aloha 'ia na na holokahiki
I aloha 'ia i ka leo ho'oholehole o ka
hulipahu,
I na olelo ke aloha a ke kolomeki.

The entire whaling song by Ku in "Na Mele Welo: Songs of Our Heritage," Bishop Museum Press, 1995. Reproduced in the following, p. 46. No translation provided.

http://pnclink.org/pnc2005/chi/Presentation-PDF/081-Susan%20A.%20Lebo-Aus%20Panel.pdf

Subject: RE: 'Rare' Caribbean shanties of Hugill, etc
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 06 Jun 09 - 08:12 PM

Although sometimes informally named 'Kanaka', none of the many Hawaiian seamen who sailed or were discharged in Honolulu bore that name, according to the records. Records quoted below are for whaling ships.

Records included pay they received on discharge. E. g.,
Kanaku- discharged from "Bark Ontario II," home port New Bedford, Nov. 2, 1861, received $31.85;
others did not fare as well, "Congress II," Capt. Francis E. Stranburg, New Bedford, 1861, listed seven discharged, all "in debt," and two "Deserted" [deserted to the goldfields?];
all received pay (eleven) from the "Adeline Gibbs," 1856, Capt. George T. Pomeroy, Fairhaven MA, ranging from $58.00 (Kaiakahi) to $82.44 (Kuhei); a Jack Allen received $195.95 but he was probably American.
http://www2.bishopmuseum.org/whaling/discharge_a_e.asp

Many Americans also are listed as hiring on in Honolulu, as well as Hawaiian citizens. Records at the Bernice Bishop Museum cover the period 1856-1893. Ship, as well as the name, is listed.

Subject: RE: 'Rare' Caribbean shanties of Hugill, etc
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 06 Jun 09 - 02:58 PM

No 'r' in Hawaiian, either.

kanaka- a man, a human being.
kánaka- (the n with a tail)- people in general, the mass of the people.
kanaka adj.- manly, strong, stable.

Html is short on symbols for foreign languages.

Subject: RE: 'Rare' Caribbean shanties of Hugill, etc
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 06 Jun 09 - 02:44 PM

One more note on "J.K." At Mystic in 1988 or '89, Hugill criticized those who sing the chorus as "tu-RYE-ay." He said, correctly or not, I don't know, that only the "l" sound is genuine, as there is no "r" sound in Samoan.

Subject: RE: 'Rare' Caribbean shanties of Hugill, etc
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 06 Jun 09 - 12:29 PM

re: "John Kanaka"

Let me try to explain where I am coming from. The idea of this sort of thread, besides being simply a "slot" for filing, is to see what happens when we take these songs as a body. What similarities emerge? Are there any common traits one might observe in this sphere of chanteys? And, can we suss out a possible relationship between the various songs that past authors in performers, working with a more limited body of information, may not have noticed?

When I propose that the shanties I mentioned may belong to the same class, I am saying just that -- not that they are variants of the same song. Think more general than "song variants," and more specific than "genre." Call it a sub-type or modality within the repertoire. Remember, the interest is in seeing similarities that help these belong to a group (it stands to reason that chanteys from this area would have certain similarities). That is a bit different from the usual "Describe the hell out of one song in particular and try to find exactly what it is." I view these songs rather fluidly--despite the fact that their latter-day setting in print has petrified them--more like a 12-bar blues for example. Songs in the 12 bar blues form are distinct, yet share a certain feel and shape; many are quite similar if we stretch our ears beyond text. This means that songs will share a certain number of similarities (not necessarily all of them). When I mentioned "John Dameray" (Barry), I said "and maybe even" because it doesn't fit so many characteristics, being a more distant possibility. As for what makes the others similar, if people don't see it, I'd have to take a different, longer :) post to explain it. I will say though that Hugill called "J Kanaka" "closely related to Mobile Bay," and Colcord related "John Cherokee" to "JK"—via Eckstorm. So it's not just me!

I think, and I'm sure many agree, that it is a mistake to over-analyze or put too much weight on text in chanteys. It is too often interchangeable, incidental, or just nonsense. If the song said "John Mandarin, hap ki kong," would we be saying it was a Chinese song? Would some go to fiercely try to de-code "hap ki kong"? Would others argue that "Mandarin" makes no sense in describing the southern Chinese that sailors would have met more often? Or would it be fairly obvious that the chorus was made up based on the slimmest of notions of Chinese culture by Anglo-phone sailors, and that the text itself was not important but rather just fit the format of the work song? How is it that "John Cherokee," an "Injun man from Mirimichi" and a "slave down in Alabam" can be understood as a somewhat nonsense song of the Caribbean/Gulf trade (from Harding of Barbados, and from Bahamas), but "John Kanaka" must be Hawai'ian?

My most liberal viewpoint is that sailors who were outsiders to Polynesian culture (though they may have sailed to Hawaii, etc., as whalers, etc, sure thing) have included the generic character of "John Kanaka" in the same manner as a John Cherokee or John Chinaman. My more conservative view is that the "kanakanaka" (note: never is it /kanaka/) was a variation of nonsense syllables (cf. Eckstorm's rendering "jan kanaganaga") which may have been heard as a mondegreen. Keep in mind that it was only Hugill who has scanned it for us as "Kanaka."

Aside: Was not "Kanaka" a generic term for Polynesian sailors, used by non-Polynesians? Since non-Polynesians are singing the song, they would use it without regard for nationality. Whether it is precisely Hawai'ian is a moot point. Do you really think Hawaiians would be singing about themselves, "Kanakanaka"? I don't say the song is Samoan (I say it probably isn't); it is Hugill that has called it Samoan. He bases that, it seems, just on the "tulai e" – but he never does define (to my knowledge) what that was. In fact, his chastising, "There's no 'R' in the Samoan language" is presumptuous! Does it really make a difference whether it related to a Hawaiian, Samoan or Maori?

When Hugill published SfSS in 1961, I don't think he had any idea what trajectory these songs would take in the Revival. "John Kanaka," it seems, became sort of a "pet" song for him. Audiences love to get the little spiel in the beginning about what "Kanaka" means. Plus, Hugill used it to show off his yodel.

SfSS, while not always the most rigorous, has a general "scholarship" tone. Hugill included and weighed any and all information he could dig up about each song. He was not afraid to say, "I know X as a capstan chantey, but I have found a reference for its use at halyards." By the next book (1969), the tone had switched to a popular one. In that framework, he had to make very concise and positive (really, falsely positive!) statements. He would have to say "X is a capstan chantey." Period. He'd have selected his favorite and most interesting interpretation of facts to present to the readers. Compare: In SfSS, re: "JK", he only postulates the idea of chanteys based in Hawai'ian songs. He says that if they did exist, "they have all been lost—unless our John Kanaka is the one survivor." In other words, he presents the idea as complete speculation.

Between that time and the next, popular-audience book, Hugill had become part of the Revival. He'd recorded "JK." The story had no doubt developed. Q's quotation:
"This halyard song is the only known representative of a sizable group of Anglicized Polynesian work-songs popular at one time among seamen in the various Pacific Islands trades." (His later book, "Shanties and Sailors' Songs").
He goes on to say that this chantey became widespread "in most American sailing ships of the mid-nineteenth century."

Can we not see that this is B.S.? He jumped from imagining (1961) that there might be such songs and, if there were, "J Kanaka" might be one, to positively saying that there definitely were a "sizeable" amount and this was the "last"! And to echo Lighter, how in the world would he suddenly know it was widespread in the 19th century? How would that even make sense if, to his knowledge, he was the only person to collect it (i.e. it was rare)?

Barry,
"John Cherokee" & "John Dameray" do not fit the mold you discribe as a "3 solo phrase". Of the 3 left that you mention Hugill does not say where his sourse of his printed version comes from"

Meaning the song "Mobile Bay"

Harding's version of "John Cherokee" has the 3 solo phrase format. The popular version that has gone around seems to be based in Robiinson's text via Colcord, which repeats the characteristic "way hey" phrase. Singers have done this to "regularize" chanteys. Incidentally, I was hoping, soon, to seek the expertise and experience of you and others about "John Cherokee"'s trajectory in the revival. We really can't systematically compare "Cherokee" to others in this mix using the Revival version that people now usually sing.

"Mobile Bay," as you say, is not cited in SfSS. Hugill does mention Slade's recording which, as Lighter posits, may have been based in the Davis & Tozer text. I don't know what that text says about it, but Harlow (see earlier post) does say "Mobile Bay" is West Indian, and Colcord got it from a "Negro." Besides, the chantey is about Mobile Bay. The geographic-culture "sphere" that I envision, as I've tried to correct myself now and again in this thread (then lapsing back to shorthand!) is inclusive of the Gulf of Mexico (southern U.S. states) on down through the Caribbean, mainly inclusive of Black singers. Sorry if that is confusing.

Q,

And absolutely no evidence that 'John Kanaka' stems from the Caribbean.

What sort of evidence would you require to say that any sea song stems from the Caribbean (or anywhere else)? (*And again, by the shorthand "Caribbean" I meant to include the wider Black maritime world of the Gulf down to the top of South America.) I am not in the business of ascribing precise "origins" to traditional songs, but rather to see what something most resembles. And in this case, by way of non-textual features, I think "JK" comes closest to the Black-Caribbean/Gulf style of chantey. Certainly that style, once established as a paradigm (such as 12-bar blues) had been carried to some other parts of the world. A sailor like Harding may have been lying on the beach in Lahaina and, inspired by his new friends and the fun sound of the word "Kanaka," included it in his new song. But that song would nonetheless be built on a paradigm of his style of chanteying. How else do you explain "Mobile Bay"? Did the cotton hoosiers get it from a Hawai'ian song?

Thanks for the great discussion, guys.

Gibb

Subject: RE: 'Rare' Caribbean shanties of Hugill, etc
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 06 Jun 09 - 09:16 AM

Based on the available evidence, there's no possible way Hugill could have known whether "J.K." was sung "in most American sailing ships of the mid-nineteenth century."

Writers on folk music love to make broad assertions from intuition alone (there's so little real evidence to go on).

Hugill's "J.K." is a great song for group singing nonetheless.

Subject: RE: 'Rare' Caribbean shanties of Hugill, etc
From: Barry Finn
Date: 06 Jun 09 - 04:01 AM

'"John Cherokee" & "John Dameray" do not fit the mold you discribe as a "3 solo phrase". Of the 3 left that you mention Hugill does not say where his sourse of his printed version comes from"

Meaning the song "Mobile Bay"

Barry

Subject: RE: 'Rare' Caribbean shanties of Hugill, etc
From: Barry Finn
Date: 06 Jun 09 - 01:55 AM

I agree with Q & his staging of "Kanaka". The word was still well known while I lived there in the very early 80's but it was not a tem you'd here anyone use unless they were Hawaiian themselves. and as Q mentioned the Samoan language is very different from the Hawaiian & in no way does "Kanaka" remotely come close to Samoen.
It is distintley Hawaiian & not Polynesian or Somoan at all. Think the use of the word "Nigger". Though I'm sure that was not the case in the days of the Golden Age of Sail.
Another use of the term is found in "Rolling Down to Old Maui" a song of & about the Hawaiin Islands as a whaling port. The term is used affectionately just as the Hawaiian word Wahine (woman) is.
Besides, had it been influenced with Samoan origins the song probably would've been titled "Jon Kanaka" seeing as the ports in Somoa where used by Germans.
As to the "tulai-e" part of the chorus being Somoan as Hugill supposes, Im not taking much stoch in that seeing as sailors loved their playing with the soundings of foriegn tongues & wordplay.


Gibb;
"I have said earlier that I think there is a cluster of chanteys cut from the same mold, which may include: Kanaka, "Mobile Bay," "John Cherokee," "Essequibo River," and maybe even "John Dameray." They all have a format with 3 solo phrases, the third being more vocables than lyrics. They're all ascribed to the Caribbean; all but 1 from Harding."


"John Cherokee" & "John Dameray" do not fit the mold you discribe as a "3 solo phrase". Of the 3 left that you mention Hugill does not say where his sourse of his printed version comes from. The other 2 are from Harding which only means that Harding had at least 2 shanties in his repitoire that used the "3 solo phrase" (your term not mine) form, which was probably very well suited to the related work he choose to sing them too. By no means does or should that alone lead us to believe that they are West Indian or Caribbean shanties.

I have some thoughts & a theory on "yelps" & I'm thinking that the discripion of John Short's singing is just another factor that comes into play. Short sailed at 18 in 1856, pretty much the height of Blacks role in Shanteydom (if we agree it's dated somewhere just after the 1812 & 1815 Wars & lasting up until-I'm in agreement with Whall, around 1875, when Jim Crow at sea was just about under full sail). So we have a number of documenters giving discriptions of "yelps" etc. from sailors of color. Sailors of color by my take & what I've come across were "the "old hands/men of the sea". By then (meaning at the tail end, say post Civil War till 1875, many white 'greenhorns' who'd come to sea did so more frequently as 'Johnny Come Lately's' & more stood their watch only a hand full of times & more than less moved on to more friendly occupations. Blacks did not have those other oppertunities to move on to so they were forced to stay at sea longer even as their oppertunities ere beginning to deminish. So we have Whall (& others stating by 1875) shanties were dying if not deead as a replenishing tradition, timing coincenadently with the sea slowing losing it's sailors of colors). So we have by the turning of the century a diminishing trade under sail (which lasted up to bewteen the 2 world wars) a diminishing of "old salts left to pass on their trades to a younger generation that wants no part of haiving seafaring as a life long career. Now you have those few like Sharp who'd picked up their trade from the "old salts" & by my figuring the majority of "old salts" would be "sailors of color" so there were the few like Short & Hugill that would be the recipentients of what ever was available & left over for them to be passed down. By this I would say (if I'm heading in the right direction) that they were an anomaly rather than the likes of those sailors coming from a culture in the West Indies or elswhere in the Caribbean where the singing styles picked up in yesteryear would've stayed far more current in the living tradition & probably were in an atmosphere the styles would've been nourished. So after all that it may have been a style of singing used mostly among sailors of color in the early days & stayed with them till their last days at sea & were only picked up by those few from other backgrounds who had the oppertunity to sail with this dying breed & by the time the collecters can around the "Old Salts of Color" had long passed on & only the very who'd picked up from them were left to sing their songs.

Did any of that make sense, I read it & it does but that doesn't mean squat at 2 in the morning?
G'nite

"They call me yelping" Barry

Subject: RE: 'Rare' Caribbean shanties of Hugill, etc
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 05 Jun 09 - 08:53 PM

And absolutely no evidence that 'John Kanaka' stems from the Caribbean.

Samoan is wrong; kanaka is strictly a Hawaiian generic term for man.

Samoa has different and more complicated usages, e. g. a common man, without title, is taulealea

But to return to Hugill-
"This halyard song is the only known representative of a sizable group of Anglicized Polynesian work-songs popular at one time among seamen in the various Pacific Islands trades." (His later book, "Shanties and Sailors' Songs").
He goes on to say that this chantey became widespread "in most American sailing ships of the mid-nineteenth century." Further, he noted its spread to the Caribbean, and collected his version from coloured seamen from Barbados. He mentions Gale Huntington's comments about Anglicized Polynesian songs being favorites with south sea sperm whalers.


Of course 'kanaka' was applied by english-speaking seamen to Polynesians because they were most familiar with the many Hawaiians who worked as seamen and guano collectors.
(Not mentioned before, but many worked off American ships collecting guano from Pacific Islands.)

Subject: RE: 'Rare' Caribbean shanties of Hugill, etc
From: Charley Noble
Date: 05 Jun 09 - 08:30 PM

It's a pity we don't have a recording of John Short.

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: 'Rare' Caribbean shanties of Hugill, etc
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 05 Jun 09 - 06:24 PM

Tom,

Thanks, great info to add to the body of remarks on the subject!

******

As for John Kanaka origins, I maintain that there is no evidence outside the word "Kanaka" and the supposed Samoan (according to Hugill -- not Hawaiian) syllables (for which no translation has been offered, by the way) that it had any real connection to Polynesia. On the other hand, it has earmarks of chanteys from the greater Gulf of Mexico / Caribbean area, including that it is nearly the same as "Mobile Bay." I really think (although I'm willing to be persuaded otherwise!) that the whole Polynesia thing has been trumped up as a gimmick -- a point of interest for audiences, including children and people who want to experience the "multicultural" dimension of chanteying in a very obvious way. And I think this accounts for much of its popularity. Of course, Revell Carr could say much more, since I'm sure he investigated influences of Kanaka sailors on chanteying.

My own interest here is not origins (birth) so much as the life of these post-sailing days. And to that end I'm interested whether "Kanaka" is a "one-source song," or if the Eckstorm text, too, has contributed anything. Eckstorm clearly did not know the concepted of "Kanaka" (i.e. based on her alleged rendering of the text), so I don't imagine she made any Polynesian connection.

Subject: RE: 'Rare' Caribbean shanties of Hugill, etc
From: doc.tom
Date: 05 Jun 09 - 03:34 PM

Just caught up with the thread again! Not that I had much to add anyway. However, to go back slightly to the decorations/yelps etc. of English singers/shantymen, it might be interesting to quote Cecil Sharp on John Short. Short was White and went deep sea, at 18 years of age, in 1856. He finally retired from the sea in 1904 although he'd given up deep water by the mid-1880s. I cite this just to position Short historically within the develpoment of shantying.

Sharp recorded that:- "His voice is rich, resonant and powerful, yet so flexible that he can execute trills, turns and graces with a delicacy and finish that would excite the envy of many a professional singer." Looking at the transcriptions of what Short sang to Sharp, his decoration and variation is, at times, extraordinarily complex. Sharp also comments on occasionally 'ejaculted' syllables and gutteral utterances. It was also noted that when, after retirement, John Short was engaged as Town Crier, his words could be heard two miles away from Watchet, in Donnington!

We start recording all Short's repertoire in September at Wild Goose.

Yipee!

Subject: RE: 'Rare' Caribbean shanties of Hugill, etc
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 05 Jun 09 - 02:21 PM

Adding to Barry's post, those huge pots left behind in Hawai'i, used for rendering whales, look just like those in cartoons of cannibal islanders boiling missionaries or long pig.

"John Kanaka" probaby originated among the whaling fleets and their Hawaiian harpooners and sailors.

Subject: RE: 'Rare' Caribbean shanties of Hugill, etc
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Jun 09 - 01:13 AM

Lahina was at one point home the Pacific whaling fleet. There is also a Mahana beach just south of Lahina, very popular localy for nude bathing & sunbathing

Barry

Subject: RE: 'Rare' Caribbean shanties of Hugill, etc
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 04 Jun 09 - 11:03 PM

"Tu lai-e" in "Johnny Kanaka" may have come from the Hawaiian Puu lae, a headland or projection. No 't' in Hawaiian. If la'e is used, Puu la'e is a shining projection or headland.

(or John Kanaka-naka tu lai-e may refer to a 'projection' of John's)

Probability that I am right- one out of a hundred, but it's an interesting thought.
Western Canada has descendants of Hawaiians who worked for the trading companies as voyageurs, sailors, builders, farmers, miners and whalers. A recent book names and describes the work done by some of them. Many returned to Hawai'i, but others stayed.

Subject: RE: 'Rare' Caribbean shanties of Hugill, etc
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 04 Jun 09 - 10:54 PM

Q,
The supposed "Samoan" chorus is part of the mystique of the song, but there is no evidence that I know of to connect it to that part of the world.

To me, "jaan kanaka naka too lai e" means about as much as "buddy tana na, we are some-buddy o" or "john come tell us as we haul away." At best, "Kanaka" is a fanciful imagining of the generic Polynesian sailor, but the song is still in the format of other Caribbean chanteys.

Revell Carr's PhD diss, "In the Wake of John Kanaka," could probably shed some light on it, but I'm still waiting to read that!

Subject: RE: 'Rare' Caribbean shanties of Hugill, etc
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 04 Jun 09 - 10:32 PM

Kanaka ascribed to the Caribbean? !!?
---------------------
Mahana occurs as a place name in several parts of Hawai'i.

One is the Ahupua'a neighboorhood of Lanai City on Lanai. Another is on Maui.
The most likely area on which the lost song is based, however, is near the south tip of the Big Island; Papakolea Beach in Mahana Bay near South Point is known also as Mahana Beach, or Green Sands Beach. The area had important temples, and permanent canoe moorings are preserved near there at Ka Lai.

Mahana means warm, but that doesn't help.

Subject: RE: 'Rare' Caribbean shanties of Hugill, etc
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 04 Jun 09 - 09:52 PM

Continuing on with the discussion of individual chanteys...

"John Kanaka" is, of course, not rare by any means. However, in every other way it really fits into this "category." I just want to make a couple notes.

Print: Hugill (1961 and 1969); Eckstorm (1927)
Recording: Hugill in 1962, then...on to the stratosphere

Notes:
One of those "one-source" chanteys that, had Hugill not popularized it for whatever reason, would be in the same boat with the others here. It's from Harding, and Hugill said very little about it in the first text-- no doubt unaware of the popularity it would achieve.

I have said earlier that I think there is a cluster of chanteys cut from the same mold, which may include: Kanaka, "Mobile Bay," "John Cherokee," "Essequibo River," and maybe even "John Dameray." They all have a format with 3 solo phrases, the third being more vocables than lyrics. They're all ascribed to the Caribbean; all but 1 from Harding.

My question is whether anyone has discussed the song included in Eckstorm's MINSTRELSY OF MAINE (1927), titled "Too-li-aye", with the text,

//
Jan Kanaganaga, too-li-aye
//

Although Colcord had mentioned it in conjunction with "John Cherokee," Hugill does not mention it (not in his bibliography).

The Eckstorm book is out of print, though found in quite a few libraries I think. Unfortunately I don't have convenient access to one these days. Can anyone with it make a statement of its resemblance to Hugill/Harding's version?

Subject: RE: 'Rare' Caribbean shanties of Hugill, etc
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 04 Jun 09 - 07:23 PM

Gibb,

Remember that Whall was educated in an art-music tradition decades before folksongs were being taken very seriously - especially folk styles of singing. It's very possible that the resemblance he saw between shanty-singing and ballad-singing was influenced by his assumption that neither was *musically* defensible.

My reading of Whall's intention is that he wanted to preserve the "best" shanties primarily out of nostalgia. Nothing wrong with that - we're in his debt! - but like nearly all shanty collectors before Doerflinger, he was not much interested in a close analysis of the material.

Actually the upshot of all this is that the degree of ornamentation used by the mythical "average shantyman" is unknowable, but we have every reason to regard Stan Hugill as way above average in his regard for shantying as an "art" and for his desire to perpetuate its most notable features. If you listen to pre-Hugill "revival" singers, they almost never yelp. Post Hugill, they all do. Regardless of its history and distribution, he effectively made the yelp "mainstream."

JWB,
I'll let you know when my machine is ready. Should be soon.

Subject: RE: 'Rare' Caribbean shanties of Hugill, etc
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 04 Jun 09 - 05:05 PM

Barry,

Whall does not claim the yelp to be only under the ownership of Black shnatymen

Yes, which is why I was unclear of the nature of Lighter's implying that Hugill was a relatively rare case of a White chanteyman to sing so.   Thanks for the other reference.

Lighter,

I'm not persuaded by Whall's reference to English ballad singers.
I wonder why you think he would make such a statement then. If anything, perhaps due to his prejudice, I'd think he would want to distance White singers from a "negro" practice.

I've never heard a field recording of an English traditional using anything like the exclamatory yelps, particularly at the beginning of a line, that Hugill makes on his recordings.

However, a kind of brief falsetto glide (can't remember the tech term for this) at the *end* of some lines ceratinly does exist, esp. in the Southern United States. Without further evidence, it may be safer to assume that this is what Whall had in mind.

This is a good point. These vocal ornaments seem to be only vaguely defined. Perhaps a really close reading of all the references would sort it out a bit, but I am hardly clear on exactly what they're supposed to mean. I think I'm set on what 'hitch' is meant to describe (or, at least a meaning has ossified in my mind). When you say "falsetto glide," I imagine you're talking about the same. To get on the same page -- I mean the ornament at the end of each first phrase in "Way Stormalong John" (Ironically, someone just posted a comment about "hitches and and yelps" on this vid.)

This is, minimally, what I thought Whall had in mind.

I think it is a mistake to *assume* as historical fact, that *most* shantymen used as much ornamentation as did Stan Hugill.

I agree.   By the same token, those singers on the Carpenter recordings represent men of a certain background at a certain historical moment, so nor will I assume that they are representative of the wide world of chantey singing -- the reason for my skepticism again being the unlikelihood that White singers didn't ornament their music then until suddenly now...they do!

I'll admit defeat in ever being able to say what parts of American vernacular singing come from "White", "Black" or "other" origins. However, I'd conjecture that by within the 19th century, the admixture had already taken place.

Subject: RE: 'Rare' Caribbean shanties of Hugill, etc
From: JWB
Date: 04 Jun 09 - 04:16 PM

Reading in Hugill's introduction (p. 29 of the 1984 Routledge edition), I find his assertion that "…this yell was the very essence of the shantyman's art…These yells had no real functional value except, in certain cases, to stimulate the crowd for the next pull. Nearly every verse of a hauling song would commence with one, and, although sometimes omitted from the first solo line, it was invariably sung at the commencement of the second." This indicates that all chanteymen – Black, White, Lascar, Kannaka – used "hitches" as a matter of course because it was the norm for a chantey, not because it was part of the ballad practice in their cultures.

Could it be that the hitches, rather than being merely stylistic in nature, had a practical purpose? It's easy to imagine that a chanteyman used "these wild falsetto 'yodels'" to be heard above the noise of wind and wave; yodeling was used to communicate over distance by some folks at least, so it's possible that a high-pitched yelp at the start of each verse was necessary so the men, tailed onto the lee fore brace in a fresh breeze, could keep up with the leader. Perhaps this is what Stan meant by "stimulate the crowd for the next pull." Chanteys were tools, and I can see hitches as a way of making the tool more effective.

Lighter, put me on the list for when you get your time machine and grant. I'm happy to be your roadie.

Jerry

Subject: RE: 'Rare' Caribbean shanties of Hugill, etc
From: Lighter
Date: 04 Jun 09 - 02:40 PM

I'm not persuaded by Whall's reference to English ballad singers. I've never heard a field recording of an English traditional using anything like the exclamatory yelps, particularly at the beginning of a line, that Hugill makes on his recordings.

However, a kind of brief falsetto glide (can't remember the tech term for this) at the *end* of some lines ceratinly does exist, esp. in the Southern United States. Without further evidence, it may be safer to assume that this is what Whall had in mind.

At any rate, my point is simply that the testimony of Whall and Hugill, balanced by Carpenter's recordings, indicates that yelps were more common among West Indian shantymen, and others, like Hugill, who learned directly from them.

Short of grant money and a time machine, we will never know definitively whether this was true. Undoubtedly singers varied, maybe even from shanty to shanty. But in the light of what we can hear directly from Carpenter's singers (as well as those on the L of C LP, recently rereleased on CD), I think it is a mistake to *assume* as historical fact, that *most* shantymen used as much ornamentation as did Stan Hugill.

One or two of Carpenter's singers were Americans, as are most of those on the L of C album.

Subject: RE: 'Rare' Caribbean shanties of Hugill, etc
From: Barry Finn
Date: 03 Jun 09 - 10:00 PM

Whall does not claim the yelp to be only under the ownership of Black shnatymen. Note under his heading "Nigger Songs" (p.121-current edition)
"Both these musical tricks (yelps & grace notes) were freely used by untutored Bnglish bakllad singersof folk songs & such, & are not solely negro. A similar trick was the long "ah" at the end of a verse, which is as old as Shakespeare."

Also see Doerflinger (page X of the Preface) for more of stylistic "hitches, grace notes, high breaks, unexpected stresses & holds & embellishments-variations as Captain Tayluer called them".

Also see Doerflinger's discussion under the chapter heading "The Rise of Shantying" (97p.) with specific mention to the Negro shanyman , his singing, his effect on other shantymen

You may want to also take note of the difference of the origins of sea ballards or forebitters & check out of those songs that have survived what are of anglo decent & what percentage is of Afro-American or Afro-Caribbean.
My belief is that while one (White) sung shanties for work & the other (forebitters) for pleasure, the other (Black) sung shanties for both work & pleasure.

I have to go now

Barry

Subject: RE: 'Rare' Caribbean shanties of Hugill, etc
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 03 Jun 09 - 09:07 PM

I was fortunate to receive a copy of "Ooker John" (Whall) from Q. It does match the overall pattern of Hugill/Harding, in my opinion, even if many of the pitches are different. From my experience performing music, to which I'm sure many others can relate, it's easy to drift into alternate melodic phrases when remembering old tunes -- especially phrases that are some specific harmonic interval away. It's a bit like recalling, erratically, a harmony part to the tune. For this reason, I am fairly liberal in ascribing relatedness among orally spread tunes. That being said, Whall's text is probably an unlikely source for subsequent performances of the chantey.

Lighter wrote:

[Whall's] stylistic observations, however, are extremely significant to shanty history. This is especially so as Hugill (by far the most influential of all shantymen on revival singers) claimed to have learned so much about shanty singing, notably the use of "hitches" in the voice, from West Indian seamen.

Recall how *few* "hitches" and "yelps" appear in the singing of Carpenter's unanimously white singers.

I'm unclear on your position. Do you mean that Whall's observations cast some doubt on Hugill, or vice versa?

Were Carpenter's singers all British? If so, does this leave room for White Americans and the hitch, in your point of view? So far I'm unconvinced that only Black singers would have sung like that -- isn't it, for example, very common in country music of Whites in America, too? And I don't recall ever learning it from chantey singers, Black or White, before I started singing that way. It is possible that what we hear in the Southern White singing is the influence of Blacks...and that my countless, untraceable influences since birth in America enculturated me to the sound unaware of sources. Hard to say.

Subject: RE: 'Rare' Caribbean shanties of Hugill, etc
From: Lighter
Date: 31 May 09 - 09:26 PM

Unfortunately Whall is racially condescending - or worse - to black shantymen. His stylistic observations, however, are extremely significant to shanty history. This is especially so as Hugill (by far the most influential of all shantymen on revival singers) claimed to have learned so much about shanty singing, notably the use of "hitches" in the voice, from West Indian seamen.

Recall how *few* "hitches" and "yelps" appear in the singing of Carpenter's unanimously white singers.

IIRC (less likely than it used to be!) any shanty of Slade's whose title also appeared in D & T is likely to have the same text as theirs. A reasonable explanation, I suspect, is that Slade (and his landlubber chorus) were recorded singing from a BBC copy of D & T. My most charitable guess (and I hope I'm right) would then be that Slade recognized those shanties but could recall only fragments of what he'd learned independently at sea. He thus relied on D & T's versions as good enough - and possibly even more authentic than what he could remember.

Carpenter's seemingly unrehearsed singers tended strongly to sing only a bare handful of verses, usually repeating the solo lines in the practice Hugill refers to as "stringing out." This effectively reduces the number of stanzas by half from what one might expect to see in a song book, despite the fact that shipboard tasks often must have required longer songs. (Of course several two- or three-stanza
lyrics strung together would have worked quite as well.)

My guess is that at least some of the singers had used fuller versions at sea twenty-five to (in a couple of cases)seventy-five or more years earlier, but they could not remember all the words, possibly because they hadn't thought about them much after they'd left the sea, till Carpenter asked for them. Part of the explanation might also be that they used to ad lib a lot with lines that didn't rhyme or were otherwise unmemorable.

The fact that Carpenter recorded a (very) few bawdy stanzas shows that at least some of the singers weren't entirely reluctant to sing such material. FWIW, the language of those stanzas is pretty mild by today's standards, though certainly "unprintable" in the 1920s.

Subject: RE: 'Rare' Caribbean shanties of Hugill, etc
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 31 May 09 - 04:53 PM

That's very helpful information, Q. And thanks for the other fascinating excerpts on singing style.

I'll send a PM. Perhaps the melody of Whall's version will ring some bell.

Gibb

Subject: RE: 'Rare' Caribbean shanties of Hugill, etc
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 31 May 09 - 02:33 PM

Whall (6th ed) put seven little known chanteys under the heading "Shakings," all without titles.
The one Hugill called "Ooker John" appears with no comment, solo and chorus with music.

The music is not the same at that given in Hugill for "Hooker John." I could email the music if you pm me.

The solo, O my Mary, she's a blooming lass, is on a descending line, the last three syllables all D, just below the staff.
The short chorus is rather similar, but the full chorus again differs.

Whall does not mention it in his short discussion of black songs.
A comment of interest is that in their singing "appeared many falsetto appoggiaturas, and a sharp rise to a "grace" note a fifth up (a sort of yelp); I can think of no other word to express it.."
He gives examples, and says the "yelp" was paticularly noticeable in the leadman's song.."
"Both these musical tricks were freely used by untutored English ballad-singers of folk-songs and such, and are not solely negro. A similar trick was the long "ah" at the end of a verse, which is as old as Shapespeare. Thus an old-fashioned seaman in singing "The Female Smuggler" would sing-
"By the rolling sea lived a maiden fair-ah," a sort of final groan."
He discusses other "queer tricks" such as inserting a "d" in many words.
He also says that "white seamen in smart ships seldom condescended to sing "Nigger" songs. Perhaps the only one which gained anything like general acceptance was "Let the Bulgine Run," one of the poorest of all." [This seems to have its origin in a minstrel song, as both Whall and Hugill note].

Subject: RE: 'Rare' Caribbean shanties of Hugill, etc
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 31 May 09 - 12:53 PM

Ooh! thanks for that, Jon. Looks like that Folktrax CD will also inform on "Round the Corner Sally" and "Girl Asleep With a Blue Dress on."

And thanks for correcting my faulty eyes on the Davis/Tozer edition.

So BIG question based on your provocative comment -- Do you have any, or are you aware of any, cause to believe that Slade learned some of his repertoire from secondary sources?

Gibb

Subject: RE: 'Rare' Caribbean shanties of Hugill, etc
From: Lighter
Date: 31 May 09 - 12:16 PM

Gibb, Slade's performance is available on his Folktrax CD, which you may be able to get through Dick Greenhaus.

Interestingly - very interestingly - Slade's version is about identical to that printed by Davis & Tozer. BTW, the song appears in all three editions of D & T, including the first (1886).

Subject: RE: 'Rare' Caribbean shanties of Hugill, etc
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 30 May 09 - 09:38 PM

Just logging in a quick one; not much "story" to tell from my end...

"Hooker John"

Print: Hugill; Whall (?)
Performers: Richard Adrianowicz (2002); Pint & Dale (1991); Graeme Knights; The Mollyhawks; Ship'n Whales (2001); Shellback Chorus; Perły i Łotry; Gibb Sahib

Notes:
Hugill quotes Whall's earlier printing of this, which is very Scottish sounding in lyrics. Then he goes on to give the version he learned from Harding, which is much more African-American sounding. I don't have the Whall text. Can someone who has it please say whether he gave a tune and, if so, how it compares to Harding's?

Of the recordings, I've only heard Richard's. His website notes are no longer up, but there's a Mudcat post with them here. The recordings are probably all based off Hugill's text; not sure about Graeme Knight's(?from 80s or 90s). Adrianowicz's chorus melody differs from Hugill print; what is it based in?

Subject: RE: 'Rare' Caribbean shanties of Hugill, etc
From: Charley Noble
Date: 17 May 09 - 02:08 PM

refresh

Subject: RE: 'Rare' Caribbean shanties of Hugill, etc
From: Barry Finn
Date: 16 May 09 - 11:04 PM

"Performers: Kasin and Adrianowicz (2005); Bristol Shantymen; The Shanty Crew; Stare Dzwony (Polish); William Warfield (classical); Marc Bernier?"

There should be no question mark after Marc, he definitly does a great "kick 'em & kill 'em" job on this one.

Barry

Subject: RE: 'Rare' Caribbean shanties of Hugill, etc
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 16 May 09 - 09:05 PM

Time to log in another chantey to this list.

"Mobile Bay" aka "John Come Tell Us as We Haul Away"

Print: Hugill; Lubbock (1906); Davis and Tozer (1906 expanded edition); Colcord
Performers: Kasin and Adrianowicz (2005); Bristol Shantymen; The Shanty Crew; Stare Dzwony (Polish); William Warfield (classical); Marc Bernier?

The chantey is cited in a 1906 text, JACK DERRINGER: A TALE OF DEEP WATER, by Basil Lubbock. The men are at the pumps. It says:

//Jack, of course, was not the man to let the
opportunity go by without a chanty, and started
on with :

" Were you never down in Mobile bay ? "

The whole watch thundered in the chorus with
the exception of the gambler, who kept all his
breath for his mutinous talk in the foc's'le.

As they swung the bars, deep came the note :

"John, come tell us as we haul away."
(JACK) "A-screwing cotton all the day."
(Chorus) "John, come tell us as we haul away.

Aye, aye, haul, aye !
John, come tell us as we haul away."

Then Jack went on :

"What did I see in Mobile Bay?"
(Chorus) "John, come tell us as we haul away."
(JACK) " Were the girls all fair and free and gay 1 "
(Chorus) "John, come tell us as we haul away.

Aye, aye, haul, aye !
John, come tell us as we haul away."

(JACK) "Oh! This I saw in Mobile Bay/
(Chorus) " So he tells us as we haul away."
(JACK) "A pretty girl a-making hay."
(Chorus) " So he tells us as we haul away.

Aye, aye, haul, aye !
So he tells us as we haul away." //

In the same year, it was added to Davis & Tozer's collection.

Colcord (1924) does not give a full text. Hers comes from a "Negro shantyman."

Harlow (1928), who had heard it in the 1870s, says it is West Indian and used for hoisting cargo from the holds of ships. His text is maybe the rarest and particularly "ethnic."

William Warfield, circa 1950s, recorded a classical (voice and piano) arrangement – I'm guessing it is based in Davis and Tozer's book, however I don't have that book to compare. It has "heave away," so that should be a clue.

Hugill does not mention from whom he learned it, only citing the recording of chanteyman Stanley Slade of Bristol, who recorded it on HMV. This would have been sometime before the early 1950s. Where can one find this recording nowadays? I would think that if it was reasonably available in the 50s-60s, then there was at least one authentic oral source from which people may have continued the tradition of this chantey. If it was generally not heard, there is a case for saying the oral link to this one was fairly broken. Information on that recording would be appreciated.

In the most recent decades, "Mobile Bay" has been revived by several performers. Some of the recent ones (whose texts appear to be based in Hugill) overlap the solos and chorus, in a way that seems to me more befitting of a halyard chantey and not really workable (??) at the pumps. Their 3rd chorus phrase doesn't correspond to Hugill's or the other notations I've seen, so I wonder whether it is a misreading or if it is based in a particular, authentic oral source that I am not aware of. This different chorus is a feature of the recording by Mudcatter Radriano – I know he once had his album notes up, but I no longer find them. It will be good to hear is story about how he and Peter Kasin worked up a version.

The version I recorded, HERE, was based directly on Hugill's notation. It is also based in my belief that "Mobile Bay" was probably the root form of "John Kanaka." "Kanaka" seems to have been a much rarer chantey, and we know it really only because of Hugill's single-handed popularization of it. My 'theory' is that it was a variation of Mobile Bay, and that the "kanakanaka" part may have even started out as nonsense syllables or a parody, only later codified as something meaningfully related to Pacific sailors.

Subject: RE: 'Rare' Caribbean shanties of Hugill, etc
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 10 May 09 - 07:25 PM

Here's what appears to be another Doerflinger-Hugill-Lloyd three-way, with the usual hanky panky.

"Rise Me Up From Down Below"

Print: Hugill; Doerflinger
Performers: Ewan MacColl ("Whiskey Johnny"); Clancy Brothers ("Whiskey is the Life of Man"); etc…but?

Doerflinger had this in his 1951 text, from Capt. James P. Barker, who learned it from a Black American named "Lemon" Curtis in the 1890s. Doerflinger notes that, "Tune given from memory"; I'm not sure, but I think this is his way of saying that he notated it from his memory, rather than a recording he might have made.

Ewan MacColl leads a performance on this, directed by A.L. Lloyd, on their 1960 (I hope I've got the date right) album BLOW BOYS BLOW. What they've done, however, is cross the lyrics with those typical of the much more well-known halyard chantey, "Whiskey, Johnny." Note that, while we all know chantey lyrics are highly variable, the two chanteys "Rise Me Up…" and "Whiskey Johnny" (traditional form) have clearly different themes. They even change "Rise ME up" to "Rise HER up" – it's as if 'HER' refers to the yard, whereas in the original, 'ME' has to do with the supernatural theme of coming up from Hell. And while MacColl + Lloyd follow the general shape of the melody, they have (perhaps carelessly?) changed it significantly.

Again, my allegations of Bert Lloyd hanky panky is just rhetorical – let us see what evidence there might be to the contrary, for Lloyd/MacColl getting their different version from some other sources. Note first that, based on other songs on the album, it seems clear that they were using Doerflinger's book as a source. And although, as per the above discussion, they may have interacted with Hugill by that time, the fact that Hugill's and Doerflinger's versions match, whereas MacColl's is different, makes it unlikely they learned this from Stan.

Hugill's notation came in 1961, based in how he learned it from Harding, who claimed it was a Jamaican work song. As mentioned, his tune has some differences from Doerflinger's but they are obviously cut from the same cloth.

The Clancys recorded it in the style of MacColl in 1968 on the HOME BOYS HOME, and Louis Killen was also involved in this sort of rendition, I think. Subsequent performances follow this style, too.

I've attempted to render Hugill's text, HERE

I'd be interested to hear who else has performed and recorded a version of this that is closer to the documented tradition. This seems to be another chantey which, in lieu of an intact oral tradition, has been skewed in a revived version.

Tangential to this discussion is my observation that what was, by all known accounts, a song from an African-American tradition might be now more commonly construed as a sort of Irish drinking song – the Clancyfication process!

Gibb

Subject: RE: 'Rare' Caribbean shanties of Hugill, etc
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 03 May 09 - 12:14 PM

"Johnny, Come Down the Backstay" /John Dameray / John Damaray

Print: Hugill; Doerflinger
Performers: The Keelers (1993)/Johnny Collins; Cztery Refy (awesome Polish version); Pint & Dale (1991); Gibb Sahib

Notes:

There are similarities in sources of this to "Come Down You Bunch of Roses" -- except in this case, the chantey never go popularized and given a renewed life and new trajectory. "John Dameray" came from the same 1893 Silsbee manuscript from which Doerflinger got "Bunch of Roses." However, also like with Bunch o Roses, Hugill was able to provide an oral version as gotten from Harding.

The buck seems to have stopped there. I've no evidence so far to suggest that Harding's oral version has been passed on aurally, being revived from text only later on.

Just a WAG, but might "Demaray" be a reference to Demerara, along the lines of "John Kanaka", "John Cherokee," and "Essequibo River"?

Gibb

Subject: RE: 'Rare' Caribbean shanties of Hugill, etc
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 03 May 09 - 10:30 AM

Thanks, Lighter, for confirming that Terry had "The Shaver" in his 1926 book. And thank you very much, Tom, for that info. It looks like this new edition has just come out (?). Well, now I can no longer call it "elusive"! :)

So now...thanks to Amazon...I can confirm that the 1960 Robert Shaw recording was based on Terry's book.

Gibb

Subject: RE: 'Rare' Caribbean shanties of Hugill, etc
From: curmudgeon
Date: 02 May 09 - 08:16 PM

Terry's "elusive Part Two" is available, along with part One. Go to the Mudcat Amazon link and search for:

The Way of the Ship by Richard Runciman Terry.

It's $19.95 plus shipping, considerably less than I ended up paying for firsts of these two tomes - Tom

Subject: RE: 'Rare' Caribbean shanties of Hugill, etc
From: Lighter
Date: 02 May 09 - 07:13 PM

Terry (1865-1938) says he learned "The Shaver" from his uncle, the journalist James Runciman (1851-1891).

In Part II of "The Shanty Book," Terry says that only the first two stanzas "are possible in anything like their original form," and he gives bowdlerized versions of two more.

His words are not very unlike the first four stanzas printed by Hugill.

Subject: RE: 'Rare' Caribbean shanties of Hugill, etc
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 02 May 09 - 05:54 PM

Jerry,

The ones I believe I brought back to life (not having heard anyone else sing them, and not having found any recordings of them) are Huckleberry Hunting (Colcord), Priest and Nuns (Harlow), The Shaver (Hugill), and Gimme de Banjo (Hugill).

I was amused to find that the Robert Shaw Chorale did "The Shaver" on their 1960 recording. I've never had the urge to buy that :) -- I've only heard a snippet on iTunes, so I am not sure if and how they may have bowdlerized it.

R.R. Terry gave 2 verses of it, with tune, in a 1920 acticle in the journal MUSIC & LETTERS. Did he give a full version in his elusive "Part Two" book? Otherwise, I'm not sure where else it might have been available to Shaw since, if I have the date right, that was before Hugill's text. Another oral source? Communication with Terry?

Anyways, thanks for reviving it! Consequently, I already had the luxury of enjoying your version before trying out one of my own, HERE

Subject: RE: 'Rare' Caribbean shanties of Hugill, etc
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 02 May 09 - 05:19 PM

Next:

"The Gal with the Blue Dress"

Print:Hugill; Davis & Tozer (1906 edition)
Performers: AL Lloyd; the Keelers; Shanty Jack

Notes:

I see that it appears in Davis & Tozer as a pump chantey, "The Girl with the Blue Dress," however I have not reviewed this. Hugill has it as a hauling song, from Harding. He suggests it was from a minstrel song. The title phrase to me, FWIW, sounds instinctively American such that I can easily see why it crops up in various songs of the folk and popular repertoires, though I couldn't say where it first originated. Despite obvious recurrences of phrases, such as in "Johnny Come Down to Hilo," this is a distinct song.

This again was recorded by AL Lloyd on the SAILOR'S GARLAND (1962) -- still hoping someday to hear a tale about how exactly that album may have interacted with Hugill's influence (and vice versa, perhaps). Other performers are also English; has it gone around much in America?

To me, the question lie again on whether Lloyd learned it from Hugill (or another oral source), in which case his recording may be considered a reference. If not, it is possible that the link has been broken, and the latter day renditions are based in text, like mine, which comes after not having heard any other singers
here

Subject: RE: 'Rare' Caribbean shanties of Hugill, etc
From: Barry Finn
Date: 02 May 09 - 03:40 AM

Jerry, you neber had an uncle Clem

Barry

Subject: RE: 'Rare' Caribbean shanties of Hugill, etc
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 01 May 09 - 12:16 PM

Yes, the tune and words come from Hugill, I added two or three extra verses to string it out a bit, and insert the walk jawbone Jenny verse referred to in Hugill's text

Regards

Steve