Lyr Req: My Little Armalite

Subject: My little armalite
From: Ferret
Date: 15 Jul 99 - 11:23 AM

My little Armalite.

Dose any one out there know the lyrics to a very slightly Republican song I think is called 'My little Armalite'.

It has a line in it, I think is the chorus that goes,

'A comrade on my left,
And a comrade on my right,
A clip of ammunition,
And my little Armalite'


I have only hard it the once, from an Irish re-enactor.
And it is one of the funnier Republican songs.
If any one can I would be very grateful.
All the best Ferret

Subject: RE: My little armalite
From: Wolfgang
Date: 15 Jul 99 - 11:29 AM

I have it at home, in my little IRA/Sinn Féin songbook. If nobody else posts it, I'll do so tomorrow.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: My little armalite
From: Ferret
Date: 15 Jul 99 - 04:23 PM

hi wolfgang Thanks alot I'll wait and see.

all the best Ferret

Subject: Lyr Add: LITTLE ARMALITE^^
From: MudGuard
Date: 16 Jul 99 - 02:13 AM

I was faster, Wolfgang!
Here it comes. There are a few spots where I am not sure. These are marked in red

LITTLE ARMALITE

I was stopped by a soldier he said "you are a swine"
He hit me with his rifle and he kicked me in the groin
I begged and I pleaded, all my manners were polite
But at all a time I'm thinking of my little Armalite.
And it's down in the bogside, that's where I long to be

Chorus   [after each verse]

Lying in the dark with a provo company
A comrade on my left and another one on my right
And a clip of ammunition for my little Armalite.

Well a brave RUC came walking down our street
Six hundred British soldiers he had lined up at his feet
"Come out you cowardly Fenians, come on out and fight
But he cried I'm only joking when he heard the Armalite
And it's down along the Falls Road that's where I long to be

Well the army come to visit me it was in the early hours.
With Saracens and Saladins and Ferret armed cars
They thought they had me covered but I gave them all a fright
With the armour piercing bullets from my little Armalite
And it's down in the (Newlarge ???) that's where I long to be

Well when (Padraig ???) came to Belfast said he "the battle's won"
The generals they had told him "we've got them on the run"
But corporals and privates when on patrol at night
Says "Send home for reinforcements, that's the bloody Armalite"
And it's down in Crossmaglen that's where I long to be

And it's up in (Olandy ???) town that's where I long to be
^^

Subject: RE: My little armalite
From: alison
Date: 16 Jul 99 - 03:31 AM

Hi,

Hardly "slightly republican"!! And sorry I don't find it "funny" either. This sort of stuff from both sides does little to help the peace process... but I'm not going to get into a political argument just helping with the song, same as I would for a unionist one......

The words I'll guess to be Newlodge (an area of Belfast), Padraig is probably right it's the Irish spelling of Patrick.

don't know about "Olandy".

slainte

alison

Subject: RE: My little armalite
From: The_one_and_only_Dai
Date: 16 Jul 99 - 03:36 AM

As far as I'm concerned, these songs are not a suitable topic for this forum. Sorry guys, but there you go. You don't find people posting songs about GI Joe amusingly beheaded in the jungle, do you.

Subject: RE: My little armalite
From: Martin _Ryan
Date: 16 Jul 99 - 05:10 AM

Alison

I agree!

Apart from that, my best guess on Olandy-town is "Andersonstown" or a variant of it e.g. "old Andy-town"?

Subject: Lyr Add: MY LITTLE ARMALITE^^
From: Wolfgang
Date: 16 Jul 99 - 05:25 AM

I see there's an argument going on about this song. There are songs where I have second thoughts about posting but I follow Alison's line. I post exactly what I have typed at home late last night both for information and since my remarks fit in the discussion. Here it comes:

Here you go, Ferret, and enjoy (and I mean that despite of what comes). I copied it from an IRA/Sinn Féin songbook. However, I don't see why you describe it as 'funny'. To me it doesn't sound like having been written 'tongue in cheek'. Whereas, from having read several books about Northern Ireland, I can understand that the feelings expressed in some of the verses have been shared by a considerable part of the Republican community, the trigger-happy choruses express a feeling for which I have no sympathy. There are many beautiful Irish rebel songs. This one doesn't belong in this category in my opinion.

Wolfgang


MY LITTLE ARMALITE
(tune: Home, boys, home; author: not surprisingly, unnamed)

And it's down in the Bogside, that's where I long to be,
lying in the dark with a Provo company,
a comrade on me left and another on me right
and a clip of ammunition for my little armalite.

I was stopped by a soldier, said he, You are a swine,
he beat me with his baton and he kicked me in the groin,
I bowed and I scraped, sure me manners were polite,
but all the time I'm thinking of my little armalite.

And it's down in Crossmaglen, sure that's where I long to be,
lying in the dark with a Provo company,
a comrade on me left and another on me right
and a clip of ammunition for my little armalite.

Sure a brave RUC man came up into our street,
six hundred British soldiers were gathered 'round his feet.
Come out, ye cowardly Fenians, said he, come out and fight.
But he cried, I'm only joking, when he heard the armalite.

Sure it's down in Kilwilkie, that's where I long to be,
lying in the dark with a Provo company,
a comrade on me left and another on me right
and a clip of ammunition for my little armalite.

Sure, the army came to visit me, 'twas in the early hours,
with Saladins and Saracens and Ferret armoured cars.
They thought they had me cornered, but I gave them all a fright
with the armour-piercing bullets of my little armalite.

And it's down in the Falls Road, that's where I long to be,
lying in the dark with a Provo company,
a comrade on me left and another on me right
and a clip of ammunition for my little armalite.

When Tuzo came to Belfast, he said, The battle's won,
said General Ford, We're winning, Sir, we have them on the run.
But corporals and privates on patrol at night
said, Send for reinforcements, it's the bloody armalite.

And it's up in Ballymurphy, that's where I long to be,
lying in the dark with a Provo company,
a comrade on me left and another on me right
and a clip of ammunition for my little armalite.^^

Subject: RE: My little armalite
From: MudGuard
Date: 16 Jul 99 - 06:57 AM

Alison,

I agree with you that this song is neither funny nor very slightly Republican.

Wether I do agree with the lyrics of this song or not has nothing to do with answering the request!

But how do you want to decide which songs are appropriate?
Is a funny-sounding song about murder and death penalty appropriate in your eyes?
Obviously, as I did not see you complain about postings concerning Weila Weila Waila (however you spell it)...

MudGuard

Subject: RE: My little armalite
From: Ferret
Date: 16 Jul 99 - 07:01 AM

Dai

I collect folk songs good and bad there are many, many songs of a violent nature and I would not exclude them for this, some people get these from the streets and some from books like the IRA/Sinn Fein songbook but both of these are not available in the U.K.

Folk Songs are the songs of people and all the good and bad ones will upset some one. But they are still Folk Songs and valid for this forum see some of the Jacobite ones.

Please see the Thread Back home in Derry. I am sorry for any offence, non intended.

Wolfgang / Mudguard

Thanks for the lyrics it's much appreciated. I wander do you have the one about the republican gramophone in you book.

Many thanks

Ferret

Subject: RE: My little armalite
From: The_one_and_only_Dai
Date: 16 Jul 99 - 07:04 AM

MudGuard: springing to Alison's defence, as she is embroiled in the situation this song describes, she is entirely qualified to request moderation and sensitivity. The events and opinions described therein are, in my opinion, too recent, emotive, sensitive and downright wrong to justify inclusion in any intelligent forum.

This is not a song about capital punishment, it is a song glorifying the culture of violence over reasoned compromise. There is no moral message contained therein, and incidentally, Wolfgang, your purchase of that IRA songbook doubtless paid for another bullet.

Subject: RE: My little armalite
From: Wolfgang
Date: 16 Jul 99 - 07:45 AM

Ferret, I do not want to heat up the discussion in this thread, so just look next week for a thread "Fenian Record Player" (not from that songbook). Mudguard might be quicker.

Dai, if I have hurt your feelings by something I posted beside the lyrics I apologise. I am not sorry, however, for having spent 20p nearly 25 years ago as a young man to buy on the streets of Dublin a small booklet containing several songs I wanted the lyrics of badly like "A nation once again", "The west's asleep", and "A soldier's song". The small print on page two (edited by Sinn Féin) I neither had read before the purchase nor would it have meant anything to me at that time. The term "IRA songbook" is my invention in order to mock about that distinction (IRA/SF). Your word "doubtless" is quite strong in what it implies.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: My little armalite
From: catspaw49
Date: 16 Jul 99 - 08:14 AM

Politically charged debate is not uncommon to this forum. Denying the existence of a song does not make it go away......but I don't have to sing it. We can talk about songs and and even heatedly debate the issues which can add to the peace and healing process in our own small way, but we have to acknowledge the reality that's out there and by confronting it we progress. Denial leads to things like the "hidden racism" which has gained much ground here in the US during these recent years. But I'll not sing to glorify those who promote violence and hatred on either side of an issue. Many of us who were involved in VietNam, where some time has passed, now no longer sing many of the songs of the era because it cannot bring us any healing.

Northern Ireland was at war long before VietNam and still goes on obviously today. Discussion can aid understanding and denial breeds an insidious, underlying hatred. You are having a good and open discussion. I think that's a significant part of Mudcat and wholly appropriate.......now if we could just spread that out over the rest of the world.......................

And damn, I was hoping this thread wasn't going to get too heavy so I could suggect that "Armalite" is a new product from the SPAM folks......Canned Armadillo with only half the fat!

catspaw

Subject: RE: My little armalite
From: The_one_and_only_Dai
Date: 16 Jul 99 - 08:36 AM

Wolfgang - I'm under no illusions as to where the 20p you contributed went. My use of the word 'doubtless' was intended to convey the implicit fact that if you bought a product with sectarian content from a pamphleteer, that money went to the cause he or she supported; in the same way that if I buy a Lifeboat sticker on flag day, I expect my contribution to go to the lifeboatmen.

In fact, I'll go further: your purchase of that songbook gives tacit approval to the activities of a sectarian organisation, who have consciously rejected peaceful resolutions in favour of main force.

You will now tell me that the circumstances were entirely different, and you bought it from a one-legged nun who was also peddling an assortment of hookah pipes and copies of the Koran <G>

Subject: RE: My little armalite
From: The_one_and_only_Dai
Date: 16 Jul 99 - 08:39 AM

Oh, for those who don't know, an Armalite is the good ol' M16A1. I don't know how it came by the name... (the other one it has is 'Widowmaker')

Subject: RE: My little armalite
From: Wolfgang
Date: 16 Jul 99 - 09:35 AM

"you bought a product with sectarian content from a pamphleteer, that money went to the cause he or she supported; in the same way that if I buy a Lifeboat sticker...your purchase of that songbook gives tacit approval to the activities of a sectarian organisation"

Dai, I'd appreciate if you'd make a distinction between a deliberate decision to support a cause like in the lifeboat sticker example and a purchase which with the benefit of hindsight can be viewed as having been in effect a support for a cause.

Last year, I went into a restaurant in my home town which later turned out to be a place where the Russian Mafia was "cleaning" money (don't know the correct term). My money helped them in effect to do that, but I'd hate to read about me that I approve of what the Russian Mafia does.
Blame it to my complicated English, if my last post wasn't clear: As a young tourist I bought a songbook on the street. It had among many other lyrics the lyrics to three songs I wanted. That's all.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: My little armalite
From: Big Mick
Date: 16 Jul 99 - 09:35 AM

It is part of the same old thing folks. I just did a scan of the thread on the songs of the Orange Order CLICK HERE and didn't see any of these types of responses. And for the record, Dai, I do support the aims of the IRA which are the reunification of Ireland. And in case you haven't noticed, it isn't the IRA which is holding up the process here, it isn't the IRA who has broken the cease fire despite repeated provocation, and it isn't the IRA who is endangering the Easter accords, but that is another discussion which perhaps we can have in the Back Home In Derry thread. But I do note that you never react to songs from the Orange tradition or point fingers at the Loyalist gunmen. Lest that comment be misconstrued, it is not intended to say what your politics are. It is simply to say that it is typical that people generally, when thinking about the troubles and the violence focus on the Republicans. The facts are that more people have been killed by the Loyalist/Unionist paramilitaries than have been by the IRA. The facts are that more violence is spawned by the provocative actions of the hard line Orange Order Paisleyites than by the Republicans. And yet when anyone expresses support for the Republican side of the issue there is an overreaction. If you go to the thread that I blue clickeyed above, you will note a very civil and tolerant reaction to the songs of the Orange Order. I agree that they are part of the Irish tradition. And it you will do a search on my screen name and read my posts, you will note that they are well thought out and not based on cliche's.
For what its worth, I hate war and violence. It is because I have participated in it, have killed, and have had others try to kill me. I don't like songs which glorify killing or which make light of it. Neither do I like songs which eschew gratuitous violence. This song does neither. It is written from the perspective of an Irish Republican man who has suffered abuse at the hands of Her Majesty's finest. Any one want to argue that the Irish Catholic in the North has not suffered this?? Oh, that's right, BBC won't publicize these attrocities. It is not a very well written lyric, a bit sophomoric, but pales by comparison to some of the Orange songs I have seen.

One last rant before I leave. The test here on the 'Cat has never had to do with opinion. It has always had to do with civility. We are a diverse community which I am privileged to be a relative old timer in. I would ask that those of you who take the self righteous position of trying to tell others to not express their opinions because you find them offensive to stop. It is not wrong to have and express an opinion. It is wrong to be intolerant of others opinions because you don't agree.

All the best from a poor misinformed Yank who just doesn't understand (TIC comment),

Mick

Subject: RE: My little armalite
From: Wolfgang
Date: 16 Jul 99 - 10:00 AM

Mick,
we had remarks about the quality of Orange songs, but I can't find them now. I only have to look into my copy of "The Orange Standard" to see some awful examples. However, I'd post them as well (last time there was a chance, Alison was faster) if there's a request. (Accidentially, I bought this booklet in Dublin too. May I hasten to add that I do not approve of every activity of any organisation which has the words "orange" or "loyalist" or "Ulster" in its name)
One explanation, Mick, why there are fewer remarks to Orange songs, is perhaps that there are many more songs requested and posted that are IRA songs than that are Orange songs. Recent examples are 'Roll of honour' and 'Helicopter song'.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: My little armalite
From: The_one_and_only_Dai
Date: 16 Jul 99 - 10:04 AM

Rest assured Mick, if I had seen any posts incorporating lyrics as offensive as those above, I would have objected as strongly.

Wolfgang; your English is better than mine, so you have no worries on that count. It appears I'm a little unclear on this songbook you bought - maybe we should start with the title. I still think you'd have to be pretty naive to not draw the conclusion I did above in the circumstances, as you would if I had bought a book called '52 shades of Orange' in Omagh.

Lastly, Mick, I hate war and violence as much as you do. I am ashamed to share a planet with those who use such means over more appropriate methods. I do think you've seriously missed the point of the song above - what it's saying is that the only answer is murder. Kill 'em all and they won't answer back.

Subject: RE: My little armalite
From: Jeri
Date: 16 Jul 99 - 10:20 AM

Mick, (uh-oh, I'm gonna get into trouble here) you said:

"I would ask that those of you who take the self righteous position of trying to tell others to not express their opinions because you find them offensive to stop. It is not wrong to have and express an opinion. It is wrong to be intolerant of others opinions because you don't agree."

You just did it.

It's important to know if something offends someone else. We may decide what we have to say is more important than the risk of hurting or offending someone. We may all be a little more sensitive. An opinion about what one does or doesn't think is appropriate is just as valid as any other opinion.

I wouldn't sing the song. OTOH, collectors who make judgments on songs' worth end up censoring, bowlderizing, and revising history. Someday far in the peaceful future, someone may wish to sing this song for historical perspective. There are many Scots and American songs about fighting I can think of that have lost their ability to provoke strong reactions. Right now, songs about violence in Ireland dig at an open wound. It won't always be that way.

Respectfully,
Jeri

Subject: RE: My little armalite
From: Wolfgang
Date: 16 Jul 99 - 10:20 AM

"Songs of Resistance 1968-1975" is the title.
Before you jump to the conclusion that the title gives away to where the royalties go, think of Patrick Galvin's, "Irish Songs of Resistance", a book of a completely other class, both in style and songs (and in who profits from the buy).
Are you sure you could have told the difference from the front page?

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: My little armalite
From: The_one_and_only_Dai
Date: 16 Jul 99 - 10:49 AM

Not at all Wolfgang, and I trust your judgement implicitly - but we were all a lot younger 25 years ago. The dates in the title are a bit of a giveaway though...

Subject: RE: My little armalite
From: Fadac
Date: 16 Jul 99 - 10:50 AM

Wow, what a mixed up pot. Well, try looking up Napalm in the data base. And having carried the M16A1 for its intended purpose, I can only say it is a piece of crap. When I was in the Army we were issued the M14 first. I also carried the M14 for my first tour in Viet Nam. The best part of the M14 is that it makes one hellava good club.

Personely I don't think too much of the IRA. Because of some of the targets. Like how about the school for the army band? What is that supposed to prove? That guns are stronger than trumpets? I don't know all the history of who did what to whom. I think that some parts of the world just don't get along very well. Iraq and Iran, for example.

Anyway, I don't think the song is all that bad. Sounds to me it was written by somebody who had just about all they can take, and are not going to take it any more. In his place, I'd probably do the same.

Say for example, Canadian police came to your town to "keep order" (This is only an example, not ment to slam Canada.). Then things get a tense. People have a tendency to react. Sometimes inocents are hurt in the process. This esclates the tension. etc. etc. till the lid blows off.

I seem to be meandering. The basic point is, post the song. I think if all the songs were removed that tried to influance someone, all we would have left would be Puff the Magic Dragon, and perhaps the theme from Tele-Tubbies.

Or folk would start sounding like the Nashvill version of Country and Western. Neither country or western but some sort of beer drinking, crying, achy breaky BS.

-Fadac -Fadac

Subject: RE: My little armalite
From: Ferret
Date: 16 Jul 99 - 01:23 PM

Fadac & Mike

I can not agree more.

As Mike already knows my sister was the civilian lead singer with the number one dance band Royal Marines Deal (not army a small deferent's but it maters to some) at the Royal Marines School of Music Deal.

She had been in that room where the bomb was out side against the wall not more than 15 minutes before it went off. Waiting to get her pay for a gig and if she had not gone to get a coffee rather than wait would not be hear today she believes then as now in one Ireland, and in paying her way in life and Job in the Deal area wen you have a handicapped son (age 5) are bit thin on the ground.

So you work were you can.

This was only a request for lyrics this would be better dealt with in the Derry thread

Armalite /or M16A1, AR10, AR15, M14, AR16.

Made and designed by the Armalite Corporation. Of Costa Mesa, California USA, this may be why it's call the Armalite.

The AR15 is the one most commonly called the Armalite not the M16A1.

All the best

Ferret

Subject: RE: My little armalite
From: Fadac
Date: 16 Jul 99 - 05:20 PM

>Armalite /or M16A1, AR10, AR15, M14, AR16.

>The AR15 is the one most commonly called the Armalite not the M16A1.

Still a piece of crap. Shoots a crap round, no range. I love it when you see TV and some dude has a M16 with a scope and he is going to be a sniper. Sure, for up to and including about 200 yards. A 30-06 or 7.62 Nato round is good to 1000 yards in the right hands. For me, 1000 yards is still too close..."Hello? Fire mission follows..."

-Fadac

Subject: RE: My little armalite
From: Legal Eagle
Date: 16 Jul 99 - 05:49 PM

I came to flame.

I read the arguments.

I still think the IRA are unpleasant terrorists, but although I think the song is insensitive right now when the refusal to hand over weapons is IMHO the stumbling block to possible peace (someone send the song to Trimble, it will give him a good excuse), I also think I am tending to say that the song itself should be recorded accurately and dug out again - later.

Subject: RE: My little armalite
From: Big Mick
Date: 16 Jul 99 - 06:55 PM

Legal Eagle

I assume by your name that you are a barrister. The agreement for the peace process had no precondition for disarming for setting up the government. It was implicit in the talks that that would come after the vote, and if ratified, after the government was set up. Trimble knew this, but is having a hard time with his people. Blair knows it and it is why he is so dismayed with Trimble and his people. I reiterate, it is Sinn Fein that has lived up to every aspect of its agreement. Given the past, as recently as the Rosemary Nelson incident (re: which just yesterday more information about RUC complicity came out) and going back as far as you would like to go, why on earth would the IRA agree to disarm until the government has formed and the cross border commissions are in place. And given the events of the last 6 months, clearly they are correct. They have honored their committments and will disarm if and when it is proper to do so.

And I would ask again. You, and others continue to speak of the IRA as terrorists, with no mention of the Loyalist Paramilitaries. The record shows clearly that they have been responsible for much more "terrorism", geometrically more, than the IRA. Yet you refuse to acknowledge this fact.

Jeri,

You could neither offend me, nor get in trouble with me. I enjoy your posts and find you to be thoughtful in your approach to things. I respect and value your opinion. In re-reading my post I can see why you arrived at the position you did. I will see if I can say it better.

I am not asking those of a contrary opinion to stop posting their opinion. I value other opinions as they make me subject my arguments to the test of the opinion. What I am asking of others is that they quit chastising those with a different opinion. Agree to disagree, debate the merits.......whatever. But don't tell me that because of where I live, or the controversial nature of my beliefs that I shouldn't be posting them. That has happened twice in two days from people that I otherwise respect.

Mick

Subject: RE: My little armalite
From: Ferret
Date: 16 Jul 99 - 07:56 PM

Fadac

You are very right, but try the SA80 the worlds first self striping rifle if the M16 is crap then this a positive cesspool. Ask any Gulf vet.

All the best.

Ferret

Subject: RE: My little armalite
From: alison
Date: 16 Jul 99 - 09:44 PM

As I have said before I think we should concentrate on the songs and the musics and leave the politics out of mudcat. I will answer requests for any song if I have any information or fill in the blanks as I have done here.

What I will not do is apologise for taking offence at songs which are glorifying the troubles, which is what happened here. It is not funny that people I lived amongst got shot at, blown up, kidnapped, tortured etc. (and I am talking both sides of the community.).. it could just as easily have been me as any of the other countless innocents.....

the orange songs can be equally bad, some of them make me sick to my stomach, but if someone asks I will point them to an appropriate site or the lyrics. But if they say that it is a"funny" song or 'just a bit of a laugh".... they will get the same sort of response as I gave here.

I don't see the point in discussions of "The IRA did this", or "The loyalists did that". The majority of people in Ireland (North and South)want peace, and God knows they deserve it!! we have to get over the past (and yes it's difficult) and get on with the future.

For some reason the threads about Orange songs stay reasonably civilised.. get the answer they want and disappear off the list. The Republican threads tend to stay around and get into this sort of argument, which will never get resolved, because we have such varying backgrounds, and beliefs.

Mick, in the Orange thread you pointed out.... nowhere did anyone try to put forward their beliefs, therefore no one else did either in the replies. All questions were answered, and the person concerned hopefully found what they were looking for. Isn't that what is supposed to happen?

Let's get back to the music

Slainte

alison

Subject: RE: My little armalite
From: Big Mick
Date: 16 Jul 99 - 10:01 PM

Well, Fair One, that is because the 'Catters with Republican sympathies usually don't accompany their posts in those threads by pointing out that the Loyalists are "thugs", "terrorists" and other such inflammatory rhetoric. If you will go back to that Clicky I gave you you will see that we treated the subject with much more respect than those among us who comment on the Republican songs. And as badly as I want to suck up with you whom I pursue relentlessly across cyber hill and dale, I will point out once more, that to take the politics out of Irish music is to cut out a vital part of its body. The songs of the Unionist and the Republican are a vital part of the culture and must be preserved. Hence the politic that spawns them is as well. That makes it fair game for discussion here. If you will re-read, you will note that all I have ever asked on the issue is that we refrain from flaming. But if one insists on it, then we will go there. I will never allow one sided discussion to go unchallenged on this subject. The English have had it that way for too long as it pertains to the country of my Grandparents.

All the best, and with all respect,

Big Mick

Subject: RE: My little armalite
From: Jeri
Date: 16 Jul 99 - 11:44 PM

Mick, thanks for the clarification. I perhaps was to quick to assume what I thought you meant was true. Thanks also for the compliment!

I don't object to controversial subjects although I may object to others' opinions or the way the treat people in the discussion. I have occasionally stopped talking about something because it deeply bothered someone else and it wasn't important enough to me to continue. I honestly hardly ever get offended by anything short of abuse or justifying abuse. I don't understand why other people get offended by all sorts of subjects, and that's the whole point. I don't understand. You can try to walk in someone else's shoes, but you can't get into their skin.

Subject: RE: My little armalite
From: katlaughing
Date: 17 Jul 99 - 12:30 AM

I have a question for Ferret, who started this thread: what do you mean by an "Irish re-enactor"? And, what made it sound so funny when you heard it? Now that you have read all of the words, do you still find it only "slightly Republican" and still funny? I am trying to understand the motivation behind your words.

I've written several editorials on this subject, mainly decrying the violent actions of BOTH sides. I was raised to wear orange on St. Pat's Day, but had friends who wore green & were Catholic. Still do and never pay any attention to what colour I wear now, except to make sure I have a bit o'green so as not to get pinched!

I think we should not have any censureship of songs when they are requested, although I understand the fresh wounds they can open with people like Alison who've been in the thick of it. Folk songs almost always have some sort of politics involved, so naturally discussion follows in the threads.

We do need to be respectful of one another's experiences and feelings. Rhetoric can reflect this respect; if not, I've found there are plenty on here who will serve a reprimand.

Everyone just needs to STOP. I still think if the women/mothers/sisters/grandmothers/daughters, i.e those who usually are left behind to mourn and carry on, had their way, a consensus of peace would ensue. I realise this may sound naive and there are many instances where women have been a part of the fighting. The whole situation and others like it, just makes me very sad. Such a beautiful land to be filled with so much strife, hatred and killing.

Sorry, I don't know if any of this helps or not. Wolfgang, I can accept that you were a young man when you bought that book for the lyrics you were probably excited to find, and as a young man, probably totally unaware of what your purchase might have meant in the way of support to whomever.

katlaughing

Subject: RE: My little armalite
From: Night Owl
Date: 17 Jul 99 - 12:46 AM

Back in April, we had a thread called "Music, Politics and Censorship". I found it in the Forum Search by typing "Censorship" in the subject box.

Subject: RE: My little armalite
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 17 Jul 99 - 01:43 AM

Good discussion. I am grinning because, while everyone else is arguing the ethics of violence and politics in music, fadac and ferret have donned their blindfolds and are field- stripping their M-16's. Says a lot about the caliber of Mudcatters, eh? God, you just can't beat this place!

LEJ

Subject: RE: My little armalite
From: Penny S.
Date: 17 Jul 99 - 06:17 AM

I usually keep out of these threads, except to point out that referring to "the English" in any particular way is as bad as saying that all NI Catholics are Republicans, and hence active supporters of the IRA (as was said on the radio here the other week - my jaw dropped). However, one explanation for the greater reaction to Green as opposed to Orange threads could be that Unionist (I won't say Loyalist) violence has tended to stay at home, while IRA violence has hit us here, and has hit many who we believe to be totally unconnected with the strife, such as children. We probably all know someone who has been affected in some way or other. My brother-in-law walked out of a pub to talk to someone shortly before the bomb in it exploded. That is the good news part of it. Psychologically, he has not recovered. Most of us do not know anyone damaged by the Unionists. Most of us find that their behaviour is incomprehensible, and when reminded about the way they dealt with the Catholics in NI when they had the rule there find it hard to believe that it was part of the UK. That sort of thing (we may feel) was native to other places - the old slave states of the USA, South Africa, Queensland. We do not like to recognise that it happened here. But it has not touched us so personally as the bombs.

I put this forward as a possible explanation for the reactions stirred up here. I don't think it is because we are closet Orange supporters. I don't believe I have ever met anyone who supports them. (The nearest I've ever come to meeting one of those is a conservative with a mystical belief in the "Union" of all these islands which lacks any sort of rational grounding or recognition that people differ. Someone who does not feel comfortable with knowing that another person does not a) hunt, b) like dogs, c) believe that wearing a corset is an essential rite of passage to maturity and d) does not care about these distinctions.)

Most of us want peace. But it is a hellishly difficult situation to solve, because we have to start from here and now, and not from the Saturday before Bloody Sunday, not from Partition, not from the Plantations and alll those other mistakes. Which is the situation with all those other problems of territory and sovereignty in the world. We can't do it the old way with a pencil and a map. We have to work with real people's lives, when they all have equal rights to have their lives respected.

Penny

Subject: RE: My little armalite
From: The Shambles
Date: 17 Jul 99 - 10:28 AM

First off the name.......... Armalite, isn't it another terrible, trendy, ad-man word, to sell make a deadly killing machine sound like the latest got-to-have material possession?

Mick.

I have, at your invitation looked very carefully at most of the many threads and your contributions on this subject and have formed the opinion, rightly or wrongly, that you see things somewhat differently to the way I see them. You appear to see a pro Unionist, anti Republican bias here, that I do not and seem to judge people, question their knowledge and generally react first and ask questions afterwards, based on that misconception.

There is no such bias here and it does not help the discussion of the painful issues involved, for contributors to have to defend a position that they do not in fact hold. The majority of the postings here are bending over backwards NOT appear to be supporting ANY side.

You do not appear to like it much when it is suggested that you are not entitled to your views on the subject, because of your distance and nationality or whatever, but this is what I see that you are constantly doing to others. I have taken issue with you before on this and your response was to imply that I had some hidden agenda, or opposite view to you. You are welcome to your views and to express them and strange as it might seem, my views are probably closer to yours than you may think. I have not expressed those views here before in any detail, but will express some later in this post.

I do find your position and views to be somewhat confused. In the 'Derry' thread you disagreed when someone said that they regretted that Margaret Thatcher had not died as a result of violence. This from someone who openly admitted (in another thread) to having contributed, in the past, to the armed struggle? Surely monetary support to such a cause surely does give you a say in who dies in it and who doesn't?

Mick says.

"I will never allow one sided discussion to go unchallenged on this subject. The English have had it that way for too long as it pertains to the country of my Grandparents".

Penny has responded well to the above, with good common sense and the only thing I would like to add is this.

The common working Englishman/woman was the first victim of the greed and brutality of the British Empire and has not only had to endure the same exploitation as all the other 'subjects', of other lands, done in their name, but has had to listen to those 'subjects' forever placing the blame on them.

That blame has long been accepted by most of the UK and it is because of that, the efforts are being made by the Party that I voted for, to bring some degree of equality to Northern Ireland. To be fair to Mr Blair's predecessor, Mr Major, it should be pointed out that his administration did more toward that end, than Mrs Thatcher, in all the time she was in office.

In fact had not been for the attempt to kill her and all the members of her government and the resulting sympathy for the survivors, we may have had an end to the violence and a settlement some time ago?

My thoughts, hopes and prayers are with all those people who work hard and continue to struggle, to bring peace to all those in Ireland.

Subject: RE: My little armalite
From: Ferret
Date: 17 Jul 99 - 10:31 AM

Katlaughing

In answer to your question of what is an Irish re-enactor.

I will be brief

There is now through out the world a growing job/hobby of historical Re-enactment of living history, and battles. These are done for schools, local and national authorities.

Personally I have been doing this for some time 26 years, and have done gigs in Belgium, Denmark, France, Holland, The Irish Republic, the Isle of Man, Norway & the U. K.

This is to bring a subject that is so often made so boreing and tedious by bad teachers (that is not to say that all History teachers are boreing I had a very good one my grandmother) and we bring it to life. As so much of our history has been hijacked for political purposes the world over we try to stay out of it (not always successfully) this can make one a bit insensitive to some people. The problem that is if you make any statement or interpretation then some one will disagree with it somewhere so you get to the point where you don't take any notice.

An Irish Re-enactor is a Re-enactor from Ireland. You will find many of them manning one of the many crannogs in Ireland most of the summer, in fact I myself will be there in three weeks.

As for funny if you listen to how it was sung (especially when sung by an Irish Re-enactor at a U.K. gig) it was sung at a party to celebrate the affiliation of an Irish and a English society. (I will say that the song 'The Protestant Boys' was all so sung at this gig by the same man.) No politics no religion we had both Irish Protestant and Catholic there in numbers with no censorship or restriction's what so ever this promoted talk about the troubles in a frank and civilised manner and had a much better under sanding of the others point and all had a good time.

For this I make no apologies.

As a historian I feel it's important to save as much of our history as we can. When all these nice castles were built they were probably thought to be an eyesore by the people living under them, and we keep some of the concentration camps as a remainder of what can be if we are not careful. So like it or not good or bad all songs are part of our history.

Sorry this was so long.

Penny I could not agree more.

All the best

Ferret

Subject: RE: My little armalite
From: The Shambles
Date: 17 Jul 99 - 10:33 AM

BACK HOME IN DERRY

Subject: RE: My little armalite
From: Big Mick
Date: 17 Jul 99 - 11:29 AM

Penny,

What and excellent and well thought out post. My hat is off to you for not just reacting and spewing rhetoric. Thank you for an eye opening piece.

I am very sorry that I used the words "the English" in such a broad and general way. If you read some of my earlier posts on the subject, you would note that I have great regard, and in some cases affection, for English friends and the people as a whole. In fact, there is a clear distinction in my mind between the people of this great land, and the actions of their government. I will make no apologies for my opinion of the actions of the Government of England in the North Of Ireland. It is the same as the view of my own government on any number of issues from Native American rights to Vietnam. And I must tell you that I never have agreed with the targetting of innocent civilians whether in London or Omagh. Neither have I ever supported the glorification of "killing of Brits". Please read my post of 29 Sept 98 @ 9:47 AM in Back Home In Derry. On one point, I absolutely concur with Penny. Peace starts in the here and the now.That is why I indicated in the post that Shambles referred to, that it does not matter what I see as the solution. The Irish people, in the Republic and in the North of Ireland, have spoken in a clear and convincing fashion. They want this process to work. Ireland's children here in the States and elsewhere, in my mind, must honor and assist the wishes of the people of that land.

Shambles,

I will agree with you that Majors would have liked to end English involvement in the North, but only because it was an economic burden. He could not, because in order to continue his government, he needed the support of the Northern Irish Unionist seats. Nothing any more or less noble than that.

With regard to your other comments, it would be helpful if you quoted the whole comment, instead of pulling the one part of the sentence that suits your needs. Here is the whole paragraph:

Iason, if you took offense at my comments, please accept my apologies. It is just that I have seen to many of my Irish American friends with this glorified view of the troubles. I believe strongly in one Ireland, free and undivided. I have supported the armed struggle in the past, and I believe you should be able to tell from the above paragraph that I have not done so blind to the terrible cost. I have supported it primarily with political action. My comments, in fact, were meant to say to Irish Americans that if you really support the Irish people, you will support their wishes to give this process a fair chance, and conversely will do nothing to support tearing it down.

When you view that whole paragraph, in fact if you read the whole posting, you would get a much clearer picture of my aims. There was no mention of monetary support. In fact, in my role in politics in the US, my support has primarily been political. I would appreciate in the future that you quote me in context.

Shambles, my intent has always been to encourage the discussion of these issues, while at the same time carrying the position that I have arrived at through many years of contemplation and study. I, clearly and unequivocally, support the aim of a reunited Republic of Ireland. I have at times made broad statements, for which I have apologized. These are usually written when I am tired. That does not excuse them, it is offered only as an explanation. And upon re-examination when I find that I was wrong, I almost always make that right. I generally have come to the conclusion that replying to your posts is not useful. As it relates to my posts, you seem to feel the need to prove me wrong as opposed to debating the issues. You question my motives and analyze me instead of the subject. For a primer on what I am looking for in a discussion, re-read Penny's post. It is excellent, and enlightens. It is that type of discussion that I am looking for.

Mick

Subject: RE: My little armalite
From: gargoyle
Date: 17 Jul 99 - 01:07 PM

They have a nifty site:Armalite

My choice is the M15A2 which gives a grouping of bullets one inch in diameter at 100 yards. It has the accuracy important to a sniper.

At 1000 pounds (new) they are reasonably priced.

If your concern is the annoying "gun regulations" realize that you can order the individual "pieces" ship them in different packages....and therefore, you never bought a "gun," only plastic and metal precision-tooled-pieces.

Don't worry about needing to place your order today, there are a lot more where these come from.

Subject: RE: My little armalite
From: The Shambles
Date: 17 Jul 99 - 01:24 PM

Mick.

As example of how close our views actually are, on this subject, the point that you make about Mr Major's government, was one that I did intend to make in my last post.

I was amazed to read this though.

I generally have come to the conclusion that replying to your posts is not useful. As it relates to my posts, you seem to feel the need to prove me wrong as opposed to debating the issues. You question my motives and analyse me instead of the subject. For a primer on what I am looking for in a discussion, re-read Penny's post. It is excellent, and enlightens. It is that type of discussion that I am looking for."

For apart from the 'Sapper' thread, when I did criticise your position, it has been you that has questioned my motives and loyalties and detected personal comments toward you, when they were not. I do not think that there was anything in my last posting, that justifies your comments, for it was your expressed views and their effect, that I was questioning.

As I pointed out, it was at your invitation that I went back and looked at your comments and you have made other such invitations. If I come back, having done so, it is surely a bit rich to then accuse me of having "the need to prove you wrong"? If I had agreed with them I would have said so.

These issues and this place are much bigger and more important than either you or I and strange as it may seem, it is not mine or anyone's responsibility to provide here the "type of discussion that I am looking for".

We might not always get what we want, but we maybe sometimes get what we deserve?

Subject: RE: My little armalite
From: Big Mick
Date: 17 Jul 99 - 01:51 PM

Not going there, old buddy. I am happy to discuss this issue. I feel no need to subject the 'Catters to another "Big Mick and Shambles arguing motives" thread. Your last line proves my point. Let us end this now.

And I agree with your contention that it is the working class of Great Britain that was the first victim of the Empire.

Mick

Subject: RE: My little armalite
From: Art Thieme
Date: 17 Jul 99 - 01:53 PM

"All we are saying is....!"

Subject: RE: My little armalite
From: katlaughing
Date: 17 Jul 99 - 02:34 PM

(I'll bite, Art) GIVE PEAS :-) A CHANCE!

Okay, now i'm being serious, again. PennyS. Thank you so much for your posting. It is really terrific!

Ferret, I meant no offense and thank you for the clarification. My reasoning was that, perhaps if you'd explained, in your first posting, why it was funny, in what setting it was performed, etc., the rest of us may have understood better & not jumped all over you to start with about the "slightly Republican" and "funny" classifications.

We often talk on here about how we communicate with no sight of a person's body language, etc. That is why I asked you those questions. I realised what you had seen may have helped form your impressions of that song.

For any who are interested in the finer points of the gun, may I suggest you take to the personal level in private messages or, if you feel it just ahs to be in a thread: to the gun thread, we had a while back? To go on about it, in this thread, where so many have personally experienced the violence associated with it, seems unnecessary, unkind, and disrespectful.

Thanks,

katlaughing

Subject: RE: My little armalite
From: j0_77
Date: 17 Jul 99 - 02:57 PM

Phew -- a bunch of reading. The Northern Irish Problem. It is easy to talk about but very difficult to experience, Alison - Remote consideration can lead to deep feelings - Mick - Two points of view equally wrong - Dai - History needs a place too - several posters. Looking at this from afar and having lived in various parts of the Islands - it seems to me now like a nightmare a bad horrid thing. I aggree with Penny too - You cannot blame the UK for the present problems.

Give peace a chance. The Orange Order IS trying to clean up their act, and the IRA is trying to do the same.

Mick It is nearly impossible to seperate out of this sad affair any part of the British Isles because most people born there have common lineage. There are old English families settled all thorough the Islands - old Scottish families the same - old Irish families similar - and so on. You'll find Murphys in Cardiff and Davis in Dublin, Smythes in Glasgow and Campbells in Birmingham.

So any remark on the issue will draw fire from all 4 traditions. Yes the IRA did cruel brutal and stupid things in England. Shame. Yes the Orange Order did cruel brutal and stupid things in N Ireland, Scotland and Liverpool. Shame.

I recall being in N Wales at the University of Bangor some years ago at a party where we all sang songs and drank large glasses of Ale. At that time there was no NI problem. Amoung the songs sung was 'We're all off to Dublin in the Green ....' If that had been today I doubt we would sing 'that' song.

To the thinking American the Loyalists would appear like their forebearers. Colonial. However there is one problem which makes it almost not work. The people in Ulster who were 'colonized' were white Europeans - some of em English families.

King William of Orange a Smoke Screen?

We forget that the situation was created after the Scots were finally subdued by the English, N Ireland was punished because O'Niell had made war upon the English in Ireland - presumeably to assist his kinsmen in Scotland. As punishment the English gave the land of the native people of Ulster - including Co Monaghan, Co Cavan and Donegal (not in Northern Ireland but ROI)to the Scots who had helped the English defeat their 'ain' King. Confused yet?

Now if you think the rogues were Scottish you'd be mistaken for as well as Irish in the O'Niell camp were Scots volunteers. So you can meet a person in Ireland with a Scottish name who could be descended from either tradition - also confusing is the fact that the Irish and Scots are the same race!

The N Ireland problem is really a Clan War?

The tradition certainly existed - perhaps the infusion of Highland genes into the pool of the Loyalists is finaly bearing it's teeth. I wonder how a culture so long under the Brehon laws will resist it's ancient ways? I suppose if the British pulled out of the North we'd have one heluva war there.

There is one problem though - it could spread all over Ireland, Scotland, Wales and England, could involve Cananda, Australia, New Zealand, Holland and the USA as well a several S American Countries.

Sooo the USA MUST contain the problem.

The good thing about this is the realizatiuon by Irish people that the Orange Tradition IS an Irish one, that it has a part to play in the evolution of the country. Perhaps we are seeing the birth of that new Ireland which Pearse, etc dreamed.

Subject: RE: My little armalite
From: gargoyle
Date: 17 Jul 99 - 03:08 PM

Well - X-CUSS ME

So sorry to offend ms. laugh cat

However, I suggest YOU conslut the "subject-line" and the original postings to the thread.

Subject: RE: My little armalite
From: j0_77
Date: 17 Jul 99 - 03:36 PM

Well excuse you too :) thread or truth - sounds like a new town in cyberspace LOL - what does that mean L.O.L. Boy it'z a long long way to Okemah Oklahoma from here :)

Subject: RE: My little armalite
From: katlaughing
Date: 17 Jul 99 - 03:40 PM

Well, it was about the song....or so I thought.

Subject: RE: My little armalite
From: Ferret
Date: 17 Jul 99 - 06:00 PM

Katlaughing

No offence taken. I did not think it would hit such a raw nerve.

As I am dyslexic I try not to write more than I have to, sorry. All the best Ferret.

As for Gargoyle

I can not think of a quicker way of wasting £1,000. If you new anything about sniper rifles you'd now that the LA2A1/No4 SMLE, Parker-Hale M82,/ M85,/ M87, or the PSG1, or Soviet SVD, French FR F-1or 2 the Mauser SG66 the Walther WA-2000, or Tikka M55 and last but not least the Valmet M86 leave the AR15 standing.

But all guns' kill and leave widows and orphans to cry. Don't be an idiot and try too sell guns on the net. There are too many guns in Ireland already.

Ferret

Subject: RE: My little armalite
From: jon
Date: 17 Jul 99 - 07:09 PM

the variations on this thread show the depth of feeling about the Irish situation surely all right minded people desire peace but peace will only be achieved with understanding, if you accept this premiss then all folk songs,from either side and regardless of subject matter, are valuable; folk songs by their very nature are the feelings of the writer for all to hear, as they get older they are "history" when fresh they are a guide to current thinking by the writer and others who think like he or she does. I therefore submit that this song is valid and should not be disregarded because it is violent, this from someone who would have been breakfsting in the mess hall of the royal marines school of music when it was blown up if not for a broken down van. I am against the violence, Too much has happend to go back, we can only go forward. There are people on both sides of the "border" of Catholic, Protestant and pagan religeons that I am proud to call friends, may the day when friendship heals the wounds come quickly.

jon

Subject: RE: My little armalite
From: gargoyle
Date: 18 Jul 99 - 12:44 AM

jon....well said...THANX

Subject: RE: My little armalite
From: Big Mick
Date: 18 Jul 99 - 02:10 PM

jO_77,

Great post!! You have given me much food for thought. I will respond later after I have had time to mull it through. I have some problems with parts of your conclusions, but in the main this is, IMHO, an excellent description of the complexities faced in bringin peace and justice to the North, and the Isles as a whole. Thanks for giving me something to ponder.

Mick

Subject: RE: My little armalite
From: Ferret
Date: 18 Jul 99 - 04:12 PM

BLOWING IN THE WIND
(Bob Dylan)

How many times must a man look up
Before he can see the sky
How many years must one man have
Before he can hear people cry
How many deaths will it take till he knows
That too many people have died
The answer, my friend, is blowing in the wind
The answer is blowing in the wind

ferret

Subject: RE: My little armalite
From: jon a
Date: 18 Jul 99 - 05:46 PM

Big Mick, glad to have made a thought provoking start to my association with the Mudcat Cafe, yesterday was my first visit. I've joined now and will be back when I can cheers to all

jon a

Subject: RE: My little armalite
From: The Shambles
Date: 18 Jul 99 - 08:09 PM

I have spent today at the Tollpuddle Martyrs Rally and despite that, I find myself in the very unusual position of feeling compelled to spring to the defence to a member of the Conservative Party? It must be the heat?

Of course there were and are sound economic reasons for all governments to find a peaceful settlement in Northern Ireland.

I do feel however that Mr Major is basically a decent human being, though why he joined the Tories and they accepted him is still a bit of a mystery? With such friends as he had in that Party, he did not need enemies.

Unlike Mrs Thatcher, who repeatedly told the rest of the world how they should sort out their problems, he could see the folly of doing that whilst ignoring the mess on his own doorstep.

Subject: RE: My little armalite
From: GOD
Date: 19 Jul 99 - 12:12 PM

DON'T MAKE ME COME DOWN THERE!!!!!!

Subject: RE: My little armalite
From: Bill D
Date: 19 Jul 99 - 12:25 PM

by all means, come on down..I have a few questions...

Subject: RE: My little armalite
From: katlaughing
Date: 19 Jul 99 - 12:55 PM

as seen on a billboard in which state? Just read an editorial about God not being a scenery polluter, but his followers seem to be; they've planned similiar billboards in 40 some states.

Subject: RE: My little armalite
From: Fadac
Date: 19 Jul 99 - 01:54 PM

Yet another long Fadac ramble.

EJ, well I was trying not to "take sides" in the N. I. troubles. I was expressing my opinion of a paticular wepon. As far as I'm concerned all the M16's should be pounded into fence posts. And I like guns! I love to hunt the wiley empty tin can, with a mighty 22.

However, conflict of this sort is very human. To sing songs about it, even more so.

I was reminded of a story that my father told me. It seems that there was a company of British solders were marching through New Zeland. When they were abushed by the locals. Big fight, bullets everywhere, blood teath and eyeballs all over the place. When the Britsh put up a white flag. The Chief came down and asked, "Why you no fight?"

"We are out of amunition, and must surender." Replied the surving British officer.

"uh, want to borrow some?" offered the foe.

These guys just liked to fight. Now apply this thinking to Bosnia, Irac, and perhaps N.I.

Some people just like to fight. Waving flowers and pictures of Barny the Dinasor, won't change their minds. It would just give them something to shoot at. So I give up trying to change the world. The world dosn't give a possoms bottom what I think. So, in song, I can protest. If you have never been shot at...Well, congrats to you. But having been a moving target (and a good one to duck.) I just might sing a bit louder.

I noticed that nobody protested my Napalm comment. There are "troubles" all over the world. If you let them, they will poison your heart. Mostly because there isn't a damn thing you can do about it. I hope that when one comes to the old USA, they leave the old hatreds behind. Dosn't happen all the time, but mostly it works.

Here it is fun to see a bagpipe band with, black pipers, asain pipers, lady pipers, kid pipers, all happly blowing a squeezing on a once banned instrument.

I hope I didn't offend anyone. I'm just a bit of a cynic when it comes to the "We save the XXXX crowd". Life is, live it.

-Fadac

-Ramble mode off. Time for jello!

Subject: RE: My little armalite
From: LEJ
Date: 19 Jul 99 - 04:05 PM

fadac... you and I disagree on some issues regarding firearms, but that wasn't the point of my comment. I just got a laugh out of you and ferret having this totally separate conversation on the tech merits of the m-16 while the controversy raged around you. Kind of like a little island in the eye of the storm.

LEJ

Subject: RE: My little armalite
From: Fadac
Date: 19 Jul 99 - 04:24 PM

LEJ,

Your opinion on firearms dosn't bother me. I'll defend to the death your right to disagree.

To hear a song about a firearm, dosn't surprise me at all.

War and conflict seem to bring out all sorts of song. Just check out the database on war.

Sex and conflict seem to be what about 80% of the music is about, perhaps more.

You did notice that neither ferret or I like the damn thing.

I wish the "troubles" could be resolved with a polka contest. (sigh)

-Fadac

Subject: RE: My little armalite
From: LEJ
Date: 19 Jul 99 - 04:38 PM

Or with rational discussion and reasonable compromises, my friend.

LEJ

Subject: RE: My little armalite
From: The Shambles
Date: 19 Jul 99 - 04:46 PM

I had a dream......Not a Polka contest but.....

A Bumbling Englishman

Subject: RE: My little armalite
From: SeanM
Date: 19 Jul 99 - 05:08 PM

Ferret...

Thanks for reminding me about the Maori... It's definitely a case for the sociologists out there to scratch their heads over.

It actually is true. The Maori are documented as fighting simply because they liked to. They would stop battles rather than destroy the other side, so that they'd have someone to fight later. They'd also exchange weaponry so as to have a 'fair' fight...

Makes one think about the base joys of humanity...

M

Subject: a link
From: Philippa
Date: 19 Jul 99 - 05:14 PM

for GOD and Bill D: Tomás an Buile

Subject: RE: My little armalite
From: Fadac
Date: 19 Jul 99 - 05:41 PM

SeanM I brought up the Maori, simply to point out that, some are going to fight anyway. Look at the Iran Irac war. 8 years and the border didn't move an inch. They were not fighting for land, so what's left? Fun I guess.

Look at Bosnia. About 70 some years ago, WWI started there. Then after WWII the Russians put their foot down, and they had a generation of peace. Then the Soviet empire falls apart. So the neighbors in Bosnia are in the streets whomping on their one time friends and nighbors. Now we have to be the policemen to keep the lid on.

I don't know how to change this, I don't think anyone does. Just saying "Stop" dosn't work.

What does this have to do with Northern Ireland? Nothing, everything. If I was relgious I'd pray that those folks can learn to get along. Do I think it will hold. No sorry I don't. Any more than I belive that the United Europe thing will work. I give it about ten years...

Sorry to be so pesimistic, but I think I have a bit of a handle on human nature. Such as it is...

-Fadac

Subject: RE: My little armalite
From: Ferret
Date: 19 Jul 99 - 07:35 PM

Fardc

The problem with talk (which I think is the always the best way to sort out a problem.) is that not all people seem to speak the same language. Or want to.

But they ALL speak Gun

May the God's help us all.

Ferret

Subject: RE: My little armalite
From: The Shambles
Date: 20 Jul 99 - 01:49 PM

My grandfather was Maori??

Subject: RE: My little armalite
From: Plus three
Date: 20 Jul 99 - 08:57 PM

Not Maori - Mori! He was a Poll. PT

Subject: RE: My little armalite
From: Fadac
Date: 21 Jul 99 - 12:12 AM

Ferret, Before they spoke gun, they spoke bow and arrow.
Before bow and arrow, they spoke sword and knife,
Before sword they spoke club, and before club, they spoke rock.

Before rock, nobody knew how to say anything, they just sat in the mud and rubbed it into their belly button.

Now they speak in atoms, people listen.

:o)

-Fadac

Subject: RE: My little armalite
From: j0_77
Date: 21 Jul 99 - 12:29 AM

Mick - just now saw your post - it appears there is an unthinking condition, in the ould slang, 'vexed' = the brain dictionary only delivers meanings for words which make them 'insults' if from the opposition - what ever that may be - or compliments if from one's own side.

According to Hippocrates if a person is angry- 'vexed'Ireland mad US- the condition can be cured by having the patient blink !!!

Wow the Ulster problem solved by a dead Greek Philosopher/Physician - free - It works too - get really mad about something then remember to blink. I put a sign on the wall 'if VEXED BLINK' hehe

Subject: RE: My little armalite
From: Ferret
Date: 21 Jul 99 - 04:45 AM

Fadac

As a historical re-enactor of dark-age and medieval combat for some 26 years I agree with you and understand the history (if not always the sense) of warfare, weapons and conflict.

All the best

Ferret

Subject: RE: My little armalite
From: Ana
Date: 21 Jul 99 - 04:59 AM

hi Fadac - I fully realise you meant no ill-will with your Dad's story, but I do feel very saddened at the ignorance and prejudice that under-pined the birth of such stories. I'm sorry to do an education trip, but the recent background for "Maori" may be of interest. I need to say at this point, that my fascination and interest in folk music centres around its reminders of our history, and parallels in contemporary life. Apolitical it is not! The situation for indigeneous peoples has been just ghastly; Yes, the various Iwi (for the word "Maori" as a collective term barely existed before the colonists arrived - kind of like expecting all British to share the same culture/identity) did a fair bit of squabbling before the arrival or "Pakeha" - a generic term for those with white skin. Their societies would appear to have relatively harmonious however, with well defined laws that controlled behaviour. The problems experienced in Britain -potato famine, disenfranchising of lands in Scotland - had a flow on effect of inspiring people towards a "better" life in New Zealand (Aotearoa -the land of the long white cloud) In reality the social problems just continued, but in a new locality. For a time it would seem that things in NZ weren't too bad, but humankind (being the greed driven and territorial animal that history repeatedly demonstrates), took to fighting over the land, when some colonists took to stealing it. (some unscrupuless iwi also saw the advent of such weapons as a way to increase power). There was an absence of understanding from Pakeha over the spiritual attachment of Maori to land (which can be demonstrated in its name -"whenua" which is the same as for placenta) and an attitude of entitlement. In Pre-European times, the periodic fights were with stone tools; some Iwi avoided war, preferring inter-tribal marriage as a way towards conflict resolution. Post-European, the devastation (both social and in lifes) caused by ammunitions was very sad. There is a preconception that the "Maori" were savages, and yet the behaviour of Pakeha through the land wars, shows that none could afford to be self rightous. Your Dad's story unfortunately seems to perpetuate such myths.

Subject: RE: My little armadillo
From: Cher-Ann Gogh
Date: 21 Jul 99 - 11:57 AM

my little armadillo (click here)

Subject: RE: My little armadillo
From:
Date: 21 Jul 99 - 11:59 AM

or here?

Subject: RE: My little armalite
From: Fadac
Date: 21 Jul 99 - 01:46 PM

Ana,

Ana, have you ever been in the Armed Service? No, don't answer that, it's not important. I'm with you, really I am.

Huh? I understand how you feel. How ever we feel about the actions, they happend. All the hand wringing in the world won't change what happend 100 years ago, or 500 years ago. All we can do is look at the past and try not to do the same thing again. I brought up the Mori story, not to slam anyone. But to bring up the point that all people in the world don't think like we do. What would make us barf up yesterdays lunch, could be a very normal activity for someone else. (eating bugs for example)

I think this leads us to some of the problems stemed from Europen attatudes to the rest of the world. You take a 19 century English Gentleman (see rich upper class) for example. He would think that the whole world would want to be English. He would simply not understand why anyone would not want to be English. Only during and a bit after WWI did this attatude change. Now I think the English see the world in a much more reasonable light. Of course it cost an empire to see it.

So I guess we are in agreement. All civilized people don't have flowered tea pots and rose bushes. Some have killing sticks and wear a thong, if that. Who's right? I'm not qualified to answer that. I don't think anyone is.

I hope that I didn't offend any English with my example, the Dutch were about the same, as the French, etc. I used the English because my history is from that part of the world. I understand why my ancesters did what they did, I don't have to agree with it, but it happend anyway. So I just deal with it, and try to learn. 'bout all anyone can do I guess.

Egad, yet another long thingi from Fadac.

Subject: RE: My little armalite
From: Ferret
Date: 21 Jul 99 - 03:56 PM

Fadac

One of the problems with understanding history is the tendency to judge it with modern values.

In the Bible Abraham went to and was prepared to sacrifice his son then faith to day child-abuse. All countries have taken what they wanted often just because they can. The U.S. with the Native American, the British in Tasmania. The roman and just about every one they new. And many, many more.

All of these were considered the right and often the moral way to go in there time. We have to learn the cause and affect of mankind's actions in the past and learn from them so as not to repeat the mistakes of the past.

Those who live in a glasshouses should not throw stones. Do we blame the modern Germans for holocaust or the modern Jews for the death of Christ?

We have to draw a line under the past and move forward in a civilised and humane way remembering the mistakes of the past but not adding to them.

I know this is the most difficult way to go but I think this is the only way.

Sorry for rambling

All the best

Ferret