BS: Afghanistan is the new Vietnam

Subject: BS: Afghanistan is the new Vietnam
From: Stringsinger
Date: 03 Oct 09 - 07:39 PM

Military solutions will not work in Afghanistan as they did not work in Vietnam.
Innocent people are being bombed. Karzai is a corrupt leader dealing in drugs.

Al Quada is not the Taliban. They can emerge anywhere. Mostly now they are in Pakistan.

Robert Greenwald has a new film called "Rethink Afghanistan" that everyone should see.

"When will we ever learn?"

Subject: RE: BS: Afghanistan is the new Vietnam
From: Rapparee
Date: 03 Oct 09 - 09:27 PM

The British, the Russians....

I dunno, but if it looks like a skunk and smells like a skunk....

Subject: RE: BS: Afghanistan is the new Vietnam
From: Lox
Date: 03 Oct 09 - 09:49 PM

It could even be the new Afghanistan ...

Subject: RE: BS: Afghanistan is the new Vietnam
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 03 Oct 09 - 10:00 PM

New Vietnam ... new Afghanistan

yup

but all in all ... it's just another stinkin' war.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Afghanistan is the new Vietnam
From: sing4peace
Date: 03 Oct 09 - 10:20 PM

War will end when people refuse to kill.

--
Joyce

Subject: RE: BS: Afghanistan is the new Vietnam
From: Riginslinger
Date: 03 Oct 09 - 11:05 PM

I wonder, Joyce. If you get two groups of young men, encourage them to compete, and then put them in a position where they either kill or be killed, it's kind of like a dog fight.
The guy put in the position of having to pull the trigger--or not--has two choices, he can live or die.

Subject: RE: BS: Afghanistan is the new Vietnam
From: ard mhacha
Date: 04 Oct 09 - 06:21 AM

From a previous Thread on the war in Afghanistan,

"For further reading on Britains Afghan campaign, Henry Morris`s Pax Britannica Trilogy, Book one Heavens Command gives a terrifying account of the the 1840s campaign.
Out of 16,500 who were forced to retreat only one survivor made it to Jalalabad , his name was Surgeon Brydon, the same Dr Brydon 20 years later survived the siege of Oudh during the Indian mutiny, he died in his bed on his estate in Scotland 15 years later. What a story this lucky man had to tell, it would have been worth reading.

Britain did return the following year and showed their displeasure by blowing up the great bazarr, the Afghans were forced to submit until the next Anglo-Afghan war and the bloody continuation of hostilities.

Morris in his research in 1960 followed the Army`s route from Kabul, he asked one old Afghan what would happen now if a foreign army invaded his country,"the same" he hissed between the last of his teeth".

The never-ending war, Bush and Blair enjoying a new life, while the bodies of the dead pile up.

Subject: RE: BS: Afghanistan is the new Vietnam
From: sing4peace
Date: 04 Oct 09 - 10:11 AM

"Show me who profits from war
And I'll show you how to stop the war"

Henry Ford

Subject: RE: BS: Afghanistan is the new Vietnam
From: Rapparee
Date: 04 Oct 09 - 10:39 AM

Henry Ford was anti-Jewish and VERY MUCH pro-Hitler. I would take his comments with a large pile of salt.

Subject: RE: BS: Afghanistan is the new Vietnam
From: GUEST,Teribus
Date: 04 Oct 09 - 10:59 AM

Ahh so Afghanistan is the new Vietnam - I thought the same people thought Iraq was the new Vietnam a few months ago??

Subject: RE: BS: Afghanistan is the new Vietnam
From: bankley
Date: 04 Oct 09 - 11:12 AM

'chasin' ghosts through the thin dry air'...

the graveyard of empires.... but there's a Tim Hortons coffee shop at the Canadian base over there.... gimme a double-double, the hash is making me sleepy...

Subject: RE: BS: Afghanistan is the new Vietnam
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Oct 09 - 01:02 PM

Regardless of who Henry Ford was pro or against, his comments about who profits from war are apt.

Subject: RE: BS: Afghanistan is the new Vietnam
From: robomatic
Date: 04 Oct 09 - 01:08 PM

I watched the 60 Minutes Interview of McChrystal last Sunday with great interest. And of course as we know the Obama administration is taking some time to think things over (hopefully to think things through).

I think there are correct things and wrong things brought forth in saying that Afghanistan is a new Vietnam. The Taliban are a noxious crew, as were the Vietcong, but their motivations are very different.

And does it matter?

Personally I would like to see the Taliban defeated on their own turf, but on their terms? Their terms are terrorism.

One think I would do. I'd go over to Vietnam and look for some of the old Vietcong leaders and ask them a lot of questions. Maybe even recruit some to scope out the situation and give me some advice.

I think McChrystal himself said this was a war that would not be won militarilly. But do we know what will win it?

Subject: RE: BS: Afghanistan is the new Vietnam
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Oct 09 - 01:30 PM

The way that wars against foreign invasions by great powers are won, robomatic, is by eventually making the foreign troops leave. You do that by making the cost of the occupation too high. Yes, the former Viet Cong could indeed offer some useful insights on how to achieve that result.

I do regard the Taliban as having been an absolutely detestable bunch when they were in power, and I have no liking for them whatsoever. I do not regard the Viet Cong in that light, however. I think they were fighting for a worthy and legitimate cause, and they eventually won it.

I know you asked "what will win it?" in regards to Afghanistan. Well, the question is "win it for whom?" isn't it? I wish to see the Afghans win the war. Given that there are a number of different factions among the Afghans...that makes things a bit complicated...but for me that war will be "won" when the foreign occupying troops are driven out of that country in the same manner that the Russians were driven out of in in the late 80's. Whoever among the Afghans then picks up the pieces, I would hope it would not be the religious fanatics in the Taliban again, but that will ultimately be up to the Aghans, not to us, because it's their country, not ours.

Subject: RE: BS: Afghanistan is the new Vietnam
From: gnu
Date: 04 Oct 09 - 01:42 PM

sIx... "but all in all ... it's just another stinkin' war."

Battle train troops and field test weapons... think I mentioned that before... a hundred times. Just wish the politicians and the other lyin bastards would admit it... of course, then they might be branded murderers?

Subject: RE: BS: Afghanistan is the new Vietnam
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 04 Oct 09 - 02:57 PM

Well, for once I agree with Stringsinger.

The Taliban represent the extremely conservative element in the northern Pakistan-Afghanistan region. They are not Al Queda, but of course help from any source is welcome when one is besieged.

Afghanistan has never had a unified population; those in the Kabul region tend to be less conservative, and perhaps ripe for a push toward Western ideas, but the Pushtun of the south and east are two or more generations away from accepting our 'modern' ways.

A measure of stability prevailed in the brief periods when the 'government' in Kabul recognized the fundamental differences in religion and culture of the two areas, and more or less let local leaders govern in their areas.

If the EU and U. S. do defeat the Taliban, its members will just pull back, knowing that they can garner support again at a later time.
It is a no-win situation, regardless of military victory.

Talks aimed at letting each cultural division have control in their regions, plus efforts to displace Al Queda as a force and voice, is the best solution.

(I have avoided terms such as Shi'ite and Sunni; while applicable in the broad sense, there are strong cultural variations regionally.).

Subject: RE: BS: Afghanistan is the new Vietnam
From: meself
Date: 04 Oct 09 - 03:12 PM

"that will ultimately be up to the Aghans"

Well - up to whichever collection of Afghans holds the greatest military power, which is not necessarily who the Afghan people collectively want running things, but who they will have to put with - if we can talk at all about the Afghan people "collectively".

Subject: RE: BS: Afghanistan is the new Vietnam
From: ard mhacha
Date: 04 Oct 09 - 03:52 PM

I agree with all of Little Hawks statements on the Viet Cong freedom fighters and the very important fact that regarding Aghanistan,"it is their country, not ours".

Subject: RE: BS: Afghanistan is the new Vietnam
From: gnu
Date: 04 Oct 09 - 04:16 PM

Yes ard... and LH... as I have also said many times, I believe it is questionable for us (Canada) to prosecute a religious war or a civil war in another country. Arguable with the terrible subjugation and inhuman treatment of rights? Well, where do you draw the line?

As well, I thought same was against US policy? Those 8 young Yanks that just died... I have only respect and sorrow for them and their families, but sommat is missing in the rhetoric that comes out of our politicians mouths... or asses.

Subject: RE: BS: Afghanistan is the new Vietnam
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Oct 09 - 05:29 PM

Our politicians will pretend that those 8 young Americans died for someone's freedom...or some other grand concept like that. They didn't. They are sacrificial victims on the altar of corporate interests, and so are the Afghans who die fighting them.

The ruination of Aghanistan began with the Russian invasion, continued under the oppressive regime ushered in by American-backed holy warriors (the Mujahedeen...who then became the Taliban) after the Russians left, and has gone into its third hellish phase with an American and UK-sponsored invasion. What Afghanistan needs is to get all the foreign occupiers out and return, hopefully, to something resembling what the country had before the Russians invaded it.

Subject: RE: BS: Afghanistan is the new Vietnam
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 04 Oct 09 - 05:53 PM

The Taliban were largely a disaster for Afghanistan, but it might be arguable that their removal was worse.

As for the present military impasse, I seem to remember pointing out Afghanistan's record against foreign invaders some years ago, on a very similar thread about the then proposed invasion.

Subject: RE: BS: Afghanistan is the new Vietnam
From: gnu
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 01:38 PM

More of the same rhetoric from the Canuck government